| 00:01 | <aho> | mh... requestAnimationFrame is kinda meh :I |
| 01:18 | <AryehGregor> | I feel sorry for the chairs, having to read through Change Proposals. |
| 01:18 | <AryehGregor> | But not sorry enough to add half a page of somewhat dubious logic to one that I support in case it will tilt the case in my favor. \o/ |
| 01:18 | <AryehGregor> | s/to add/to not add/ |
| 01:19 | <hober> | :) |
| 01:20 | AryehGregor | just added the whole "<u> should not be invalid just because some other obsolete presentational features . . ." thing at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/UShouldBeConforming#Rationale |
| 01:20 | AryehGregor | believes points 1 and 2, thinks 3 and 4 are sketchy, and considers 5 to be patently ridiculous, but hey, who knows |
| 04:01 | <wolfman2000> | ...been awhile since I've been here. *sees if any updates were made as of late* |
| 08:51 | <annevk> | benschwarz, need help with the blog still? |
| 08:53 | <Ms2ger> | Morning annevk :) |
| 08:53 | <annevk> | hey there Ms2ger, read the logs? |
| 08:53 | <Ms2ger> | Yes |
| 08:53 | <annevk> | it seems Art is still asleep |
| 08:54 | <Ms2ger> | Once you know a date, I can generate it |
| 08:54 | <annevk> | kk |
| 08:54 | <annevk> | I guess I'll rename context node to context object as you suggested |
| 08:54 | <annevk> | and mention it is not always used |
| 09:00 | <annevk> | anyone going to write a CCP for http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-155-CP1 ? |
| 09:00 | <annevk> | "CSS-hindered browsers" can just provide a sane default style |
| 09:05 | <hsivonen> | it would be helpful to name concrete browsers that the CP writer cares about |
| 09:06 | <annevk> | does it help commenting on change proposals? |
| 09:06 | <annevk> | I have the feeling that never gets anywhere |
| 09:08 | <benschwarz> | annevk: hey thanks. been too busy to think about it :) |
| 09:16 | <hsivonen> | annevk: well, it might not help with commenting on CPs but it might help assessing it the CP is making sense |
| 09:16 | <erlehmann> | text browsers fail at html anyway. does any one even have a DOM? |
| 09:17 | <erlehmann> | also, if elinks is dead, then i don't know what project could be alive. |
| 09:18 | <hsivonen> | erlehmann: well, one might argue that IE6 and IE7 are of interest |
| 09:18 | <hsivonen> | erlehmann: but it's not clear what the CP author is arguing |
| 09:19 | <annevk> | I don't think you can reasonably argue IE6 and IE7 are still of interest given that a) there's IE8 and IE9 and b) standards are in it for the long haul |
| 09:19 | <karlcow> | hmm ISSUE-155-CP1 seems to ask for a default stylesheet. |
| 09:20 | <karlcow> | I wonder if the answer is not a modification of http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/sample.html |
| 09:20 | <annevk> | there are default rendering rules |
| 09:20 | <karlcow> | instead of html5 spec |
| 09:20 | <hsivonen> | annevk: the long haul argument implicitly OKs using invalid markup for the short haul |
| 09:21 | <annevk> | karlcow, CSS was never the right place to define a rendering rules for HTML |
| 09:22 | <karlcow> | well, I do not have strong opinions on the place where to define it, but more where it is easier to define. And maybe also who is implementing the default rendering rules, the HTML engineers or the CSS ones. |
| 09:24 | <annevk> | there's no real clear divide in my experience |
| 09:24 | <annevk> | in any event, you know HTML defines rendering rules that obsolete that CSS chapter right? |
| 09:33 | <hsivonen> | annevk, jgraham: in case you are wondering about the html5lib changeset attributed to Mats Palmgren, I pushed tests on behalf of another Mozilla developer |
| 09:34 | <annevk> | cool that he's still around |
| 09:36 | <karlcow> | annevk: I didn't know, but as I said, I don't mind about the place. see above. :) |
| 09:38 | <zcorpan> | yay ragnarök labs build! |
| 09:40 | <zcorpan> | lol "JavaScripters will sport cheerful grins and bouffant hair" |
| 09:47 | <zcorpan> | (ragnarök - http://labs.opera.com/news/2011/02/22/ ) |
| 09:50 | <hsivonen> | Opera has cooler code names than the rest of us. :-( |
| 09:51 | <zcorpan> | heh |
| 09:52 | <Ms2ger> | Hey, we've got parks! |
| 09:52 | <Rik`> | and monkeys |
| 09:57 | <karlcow> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnarök |
| 10:00 | <hsivonen> | Rik`: indeed. JägerMonkey is cool, too. |
| 10:01 | <Philip`> | Clearly it's the umlauts that do it |
| 10:02 | <zewt> | is the goal to have names that people can't type? heh |
| 10:02 | <zewt> | charmap-era |
| 10:03 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: that must be why it's not Ragnarøk |
| 10:03 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: i dunno, the wiki page seems to say the proper spelling is "Ragnarök", not "Ragnarøk" |
| 10:04 | <karlcow> | zewt: なんで？ |
| 10:04 | <zewt> | なんでも |
| 10:04 | <Rik`> | hsivonen: but the logo is awful |
| 10:05 | <hsivonen> | Rik`: do you mean the gorilla with antlers? |
| 10:05 | <hsivonen> | I thought the gorilla with antlers was fun |
| 10:07 | <Rik`> | I thought it was created for heavy metal fans or to scare children during halloween |
| 10:10 | <annevk> | writing text for dispatching events is more complicated than it should be :/ |
| 10:12 | <zcorpan> | "The user agent must dispatch arbitrary events at will." |
| 10:12 | <zewt> | i'd sooner not use a self-aware browser |
| 10:13 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: hmm. from Bokmål Wikipedia, it looks like Old Norse words don't use ø |
| 10:13 | <zcorpan> | that explains it |
| 10:13 | <hsivonen> | so not just an English Wikipedia thing |
| 10:35 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 10:35 | <annevk> | maybe we should call it "fire" like Hixie did |
| 10:36 | <annevk> | dispatch is the internal mechanism and author-facing term (dispatchEvent); "fire" is what specs use to refer to each other |
| 10:36 | <annevk> | thoughts? |
| 10:37 | <benschwarz> | zcorpan thanks for all your tickets on the developer spec! |
| 10:37 | <zcorpan> | benschwarz: np |
| 10:37 | <annevk> | concept-event-fire / concept-event-fire-progress / ... |
| 10:37 | <zcorpan> | annevk: sounds like "run" and "execute" in html5 recently |
| 10:37 | <annevk> | prolly concept-event-fire-mutation at some point |
| 10:37 | <annevk> | zcorpan, what happened to that? |
| 10:37 | <benschwarz> | zcorpan the response has been really good |
| 10:38 | <zcorpan> | annevk: it was too confusing and one of them was changed to "prepare a script" |
| 10:38 | <annevk> | ah |
| 10:39 | <annevk> | so if you had "prepare event" would that also dispatch it in the end? |
| 10:39 | <annevk> | doesn't sound quite right though |
| 10:39 | <zcorpan> | i don't know what you're trying to do, but i'd recommend against making "fire" and "dispatch" mean different things :) |
| 10:40 | <annevk> | the actual dispatching of an event is going through its event targets etc. |
| 10:40 | <annevk> | but you also have creating an initializing the event before that followed by dispatching |
| 10:40 | <annevk> | HTML calls that "fire an event named e" |
| 10:41 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: I filed DSK-329294 |
| 10:41 | <annevk> | my current commit named it "dispatch an event named e" |
| 10:42 | <annevk> | and I don't want to call it "initialize and dispatch an event named e" because this is supposed to be a short phrase |
| 10:46 | <hsivonen> | btw, on Linux 64, clipboard import from other processes is broken in the Rangnarök build, which makes testing rather annoying |
| 10:47 | <zewt> | annevk: if nothing else, i've found it annoying that specs are inconsistent in "dispatch" vs. "fire" events (hard to search for) |
| 10:48 | <annevk> | right, DOM Core ought to fix that |
| 10:48 | <annevk> | the question is how :) |
| 10:51 | <annevk> | DOM Events seems to use them both |
| 10:52 | <zewt> | i mean, IDB uses "fire", FileAPI uses "dispatch", and I remember seeing some using both |
| 10:53 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/ uses both |
| 10:53 | <zewt> | (as for which I don't think it matters; intuitively I prefer dispatch but probably not for any reason that matters) |
| 10:54 | <annevk> | the proper name would be initialize and dispatch |
| 10:55 | <annevk> | I could just explain that "fire" is short for that |
| 10:55 | <zewt> | probably the only significant reason is that "dispatch an event" lines up with the function dispatchEvent |
| 10:55 | <annevk> | well, dispatchEvent takes an event object that's ready |
| 10:56 | <zewt> | yeah, "dispatch an event" in specs implies "create and initialize" at the same time |
| 10:57 | <zewt> | specs never do things like "initialize an event X with attributes Y, then queue a task to dispatch it", right? (pretty sure I havn't seen that) |
| 10:57 | <annevk> | no, it's queue a task to fire x |
| 10:58 | <annevk> | I think I'll go with "fire" and keep "dispatch" for the actual dispatching |
| 10:58 | <annevk> | i.e. dispatchEvent still maps straight to dispatch |
| 11:04 | <annevk> | maybe it should be something like this |
| 11:05 | <annevk> | to "fire an event named e" means that an event of type Event (unless stated otherwise), with its name set to e, and its trusted flag set, is to be dispatched at the indicated object |
| 11:05 | <hsivonen> | kudos to Opera for being the first browser with an HTML5 parser to implement <keygen> without incompliant cruft in the DOM |
| 11:05 | <annevk> | then other specs could define something like |
| 11:06 | <hsivonen> | oh. Chrome 10 already had it right, it seems |
| 11:06 | <annevk> | "fire a progress event named e" means to "fire an event named e" with an event of type ProgressEvent with these additional bits set: concept-ProgressEvent-value set to ... |
| 11:07 | <annevk> | I think I'm gonna try that |
| 11:08 | <zewt> | oh, it was WebSockets using both "fire" and "dispatch" |
| 11:08 | <hsivonen> | why does Opera offer so many key lengths in keygen? |
| 11:08 | <hsivonen> | Chrome offers only 2 |
| 11:09 | <zewt> | "fire a simple event" is also common ... that just seems like an unneeded variation |
| 11:13 | <annevk> | not sure why Hixie added simple |
| 11:13 | <annevk> | events are complex |
| 11:13 | <annevk> | :) |
| 11:13 | <zewt> | i'm not familiar enough with IDB, but this has been bugging me--anyone know why it says the success and error events are fired at the Window object, rather than the IDBRequest? |
| 11:14 | <zewt> | "fire a slightly less complex event at ..." |
| 11:14 | <annevk> | no, but I suggest just asking on public-webapps |
| 11:14 | <zewt> | i did, a while back, didn't get a reply |
| 11:14 | <zewt> | unless i missed it |
| 11:15 | <hsivonen> | http://mxr.mozilla.org/classic/source/lib/libparse/pa_hash.rmap has some interesting tag names in it |
| 11:15 | <annevk> | zewt, oh, you're required to get a reply more or less before they can proceed to Last Call |
| 11:16 | <annevk> | zewt, not sure how serious the Process is being taken though |
| 11:16 | <annevk> | https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core/changeset/b6b2e473dc43 has my new definition btw |
| 11:16 | <zewt> | it was probably missed since it was part of another IDB-related thread; I'll just ping it |
| 11:16 | <annevk> | now gonna update progress events to use it |
| 11:17 | <zewt> | going to nudge other in-progress specs to use that phrasing? |
| 11:19 | <zewt> | the "load" event on things like <script> make me sad--it would be really neat if all resource-fetching elements could consistently implement onload with the same event name, then you could capture "load" on window and easily receive notifications of resource fetches for all elements |
| 11:19 | <annevk> | http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/progress/ and then XHR at some point |
| 11:20 | <annevk> | Hixie filed a bug to use DOM Core terminology in HTML |
| 11:22 | <annevk> | I think at that point enough dominoes have fallen to declare victory |
| 11:22 | <annevk> | (aside: why is dominos not its plural?) |
| 11:22 | <zewt> | maybe you should start work on DOM English |
| 11:23 | <zewt> | (and you think defining events is a pain) |
| 11:28 | <zewt> | is the difference async vs. sync events equivalent to the difference between "fire an event" and "queue a task to fire an event"? |
| 11:41 | <annevk> | zewt, yes |
| 11:42 | <annevk> | (though the other way around) |
| 11:43 | <zewt> | is it? doesn't read that way |
| 11:43 | <zewt> | Events which are asynchronous may be dispatched as the results of the action are completed, with no relation to other events, to other changes in the DOM, nor to user interaction. |
| 11:44 | <zewt> | er |
| 11:44 | <zewt> | no er |
| 11:44 | <annevk> | "queue a task" is for async |
| 11:45 | <annevk> | see HTML |
| 11:45 | <zewt> | i'm reading DOM L3 Events |
| 11:45 | <annevk> | if you just "fire" without queuing it happens immediately |
| 11:45 | <zewt> | right, that's what the above seems to say for async |
| 11:45 | <annevk> | o_O |
| 11:46 | <zewt> | and |
| 11:46 | <zewt> | Events which are synchronous must be treated as if they are in a virtual queue in a first-in-first-out model |
| 11:46 | <zewt> | eg. queue a task |
| 11:46 | <annevk> | I would not trust DOM L3 Events on this |
| 11:46 | <annevk> | it's an attempted copy of HTML or some such |
| 11:47 | <annevk> | be back later |
| 11:47 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, "fire an event" seems to be in a weird place |
| 11:47 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, yeah, gonna move it to a firing an event section |
| 11:47 | <annevk> | now i made "fire" a kind of concept |
| 11:47 | <Ms2ger> | k |
| 12:21 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Thanks |
| 12:22 | <jgraham> | Any idea what, if anything, is needed license wise to add the html5lib tests to the HTMLWG testsuite? |
| 12:22 | jgraham | is not here really |
| 12:22 | <jgraham> | (but will read answers later) |
| 12:27 | <Ms2ger> | I think the W3C wants BSD + one of their own licenses |
| 12:27 | <Ms2ger> | I suggest letting them figure it out :) |
| 12:29 | <jgraham> | As in, submit the tests and note that the test data is MIT licensed |
| 12:29 | <jgraham> | That could work |
| 12:31 | <hsivonen> | Personally, I think the W3C should tweak their policy to allow MIT-licensed upstream tests |
| 12:32 | <hsivonen> | it would the the height of silliness to have to bother a number of people about relicensing MIT stuff as BSD |
| 12:34 | <hsivonen> | if the W3C wants to reject the most serious HTML parsing test suite because it's MIT-licensed, I think that's the W3C's loss |
| 12:43 | <karlcow> | http://www.w3.org/2004/10/27-testcases.html |
| 12:44 | <karlcow> | http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2008/04-testsuite-copyright |
| 13:37 | <boblet> | anyone know what Mike’s official role re: HTML5 is? W3C liaison? |
| 13:38 | <karlcow> | boblet: mike smith? |
| 13:38 | <boblet> | karlcow: the same. sorry, should have written Mike™ |
| 13:38 | <karlcow> | he is the W3C staff contact for HTML WG. |
| 13:39 | <boblet> | karlcow: much obliged. will go back to writing about him behind his back :) |
| 13:39 | <karlcow> | http://people.w3.org/~mike/ |
| 13:40 | <karlcow> | http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html |
| 13:41 | <karlcow> | boblet: the official name in W3C terminology is Team Contact. |
| 13:41 | <boblet> | aah, that was the page I couldn’t find. his people page is all fluffy cat photos |
| 13:41 | <boblet> | (must be something to do with HTML5 huh) |
| 13:42 | <karlcow> | heh |
| 13:43 | <davidjrice> | hsivonen: hey, having trouble building validator.nu HEAD on ubuntu? |
| 13:43 | <hsivonen> | davidjrice: did you run the build twice? |
| 13:44 | <davidjrice> | hsivonen: about 20/30 times maybe :) |
| 13:44 | <hsivonen> | davidjrice: how does it fail? |
| 13:45 | <davidjrice> | https://gist.github.com/840446 |
| 13:46 | <hsivonen> | davidjrice: I haven't seen that one before |
| 13:47 | <davidjrice> | cool. java -version 1.6.0_06 |
| 13:47 | <davidjrice> | ubuntu hardy |
| 13:49 | <hsivonen> | davidjrice: if you look inside ./jars/validator.jar, is nu/validator/servlet/Main.class there? |
| 13:52 | <davidjrice> | hsivonen: look inside a jar? |
| 13:53 | <hsivonen> | jar tvf ./jars/validator.jar |
| 13:53 | <davidjrice> | ah okay, I was doing > https://gist.github.com/840456 |
| 13:54 | <davidjrice> | hsivonen: it ain't in there |
| 13:56 | <hsivonen> | davidjrice: ok. then earlier in the build, you should see a compiler error when building the validator module |
| 14:00 | <zcorpan> | heh, microsoft bring the doctype voodoo of substring matching to canPlayType http://people.opera.com/philipj/2011/02/23/ie9-canplaytype/ |
| 14:01 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: why isn't the response non-empty for any of the video/mp4 examples from the spec? |
| 14:02 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: the page outputs your browser's results, not ie9's results |
| 14:02 | <zcorpan> | gotta go |
| 14:03 | <hsivonen> | oh |
| 14:04 | <davidjrice> | hsivonen: okay, I'm going to run the build command on it's own |
| 14:04 | <davidjrice> | hsivonen: have to pop out for a meeting now :( thanks for the help so far |
| 14:05 | <hsivonen> | davidjrice: you're welcome |
| 14:08 | <davidjrice> | hsivonen: https://gist.github.com/840465 |
| 14:21 | <foolip> | hsivonen, I'll note on the page that the results are live |
| 14:23 | <hsivonen> | foolip: thanks. It wasn't obvious and I was too silly not to view source |
| 14:55 | <hsivonen> | Is there some logic to counting every non-security Chrome release as major but not counting every non-security Opera release as major at http://people.gnome.org/~jdub/2011/modern-browsers-ship/ ? |
| 15:00 | <Philip`> | Don't you think version number gradients are a good indicator of browser quality? |
| 15:00 | <Philip`> | They're a nice objective measurement, and much easier than judging based on something that matters |
| 15:12 | <miketaylr> | i think whomever made that graphic is just confused about opera's versioning |
| 15:13 | <miketaylr> | https://twitter.com/jdub/status/38748271698657280 |
| 15:14 | <nimbupani> | you know we need to make a graphic that shows history of Opera versions and the year and all that |
| 15:14 | <nimbupani> | it would be nice |
| 15:14 | <nimbupani> | no browser has made it |
| 15:15 | <nimbupani> | omg that dood tweets too much |
| 15:15 | <hsivonen> | miketaylr: maybe it's Wikipedia's fault for not making releases looks significant |
| 15:15 | <miketaylr> | possibly :) |
| 15:16 | <nimbupani> | this chart sucks FYI |
| 15:16 | <nimbupani> | :)) |
| 15:16 | <hsivonen> | anyway, I'd have considered Opera 10.50 and 10.60 at least as significant as a run-of-the-mill Chrome cycle |
| 15:17 | <gsnedders> | Definitely 10.50 onwards I'd count every non-bug-fix release as significant as the Chrome cycle |
| 15:17 | <hsivonen> | (of course, the point of the graphic isn't to visualize Opera vs. Chrome but to visualize Firefox vs. Chrome) |
| 15:17 | <gsnedders> | Before that it was more random… |
| 15:18 | <nimbupani> | i think fyrd has a nice entry in wikipedia |
| 15:18 | <gsnedders> | (Of course, what we should do it make a graph of every major Presto release, Presto 1, Presto 2, and well, that's it. :P) |
| 15:19 | <miketaylr> | modern layout engines ship, gsnedders |
| 15:20 | <gsnedders> | miketaylr: Yeah, my point is more that releases are often far beyond major.minor.bugfix |
| 15:20 | <gsnedders> | Heck, Presto doesn't even follow that |
| 15:20 | <hsivonen> | it looks like the author of the chart just looked at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Opera_web_browser |
| 15:21 | <miketaylr> | gsnedders: understood, i was sort of making a joke... :/ |
| 15:23 | <nimbupani> | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Timeline_of_web_browsers.svg is what i like |
| 15:23 | <nimbupani> | much more simple |
| 15:23 | <wilhelm> | We should use our core integration numbers. That's a release every single day! Presto 108. Yay. |
| 15:24 | <gsnedders> | wilhelm: Well, it is only the final digit of the Presto release number that actually has any meaning any more. |
| 15:24 | <gsnedders> | s/digit/segment/ |
| 15:24 | <hsivonen> | nimbupani: that chart seems to have a much better concept of a major release |
| 15:24 | <wilhelm> | Indeed. |
| 15:24 | <nimbupani> | yeah its by fyrd who maintains caniuse.com |
| 15:25 | <gsnedders> | wilhelm: So yeah, dropping everything before that makes sense :P |
| 15:26 | <Philip`> | You should call it Presto 3 when you rewrite the whole layout engine from scratch in Javascript |
| 15:27 | <nimbupani> | or jPresto |
| 15:28 | <Philip`> | PreJSto? |
| 15:28 | <Philip`> | Hmm, hard to pronounce nicely |
| 15:28 | <karlcow> | thinking of 2d charts for each browser, but more difficult to do. one line by feature and when it was released on the timeline. Version numbers are decorations. |
| 15:29 | <nimbupani> | http://www.bifter.co.uk/ |
| 15:29 | <miketaylr> | prejsto is probably more pronouncable in norwegian |
| 15:37 | <boblet> | can anyone tell me what the criteria are for generating a new Working Draft of HTML5? |
| 15:39 | <Ms2ger> | Pain. |
| 15:40 | <boblet> | Ms2ger: well that’s par for the course, surely |
| 15:43 | <boblet> | where’s Mike when you need him — he should be back from the sento by now |
| 15:47 | <karlcow> | hmm in between sento/onsen and irc, I think I will take the sento/onsen |
| 15:48 | <boblet> | heh |
| 15:51 | <annevk> | thanks Ms2ger |
| 15:51 | <annevk> | I went out for lunch and then got lost |
| 15:51 | <annevk> | sort of |
| 15:51 | <boblet> | zOMG http://www.html-5.com/tutorial/page-structure.html recommends polyglot doboilerplate :O |
| 15:53 | <hsivonen> | boblet: the visual design of that page has street cred |
| 15:54 | <boblet> | hsivonen: I liked the about page myself |
| 15:54 | <boblet> | somebody loves their XSLT |
| 15:58 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, maybe just "Strings" |
| 15:58 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, just like we have "Trees" |
| 15:59 | annevk | loves to paint bikesheds |
| 16:00 | gsnedders | prefers nuclear power plants |
| 16:27 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: will the new values be added back? <http://www.w3.org/mid/E1PmwFQ-00038C-SK⊙lwo>; |
| 16:28 | <TabAtkins> | zcorpan: Yeah, I've got the edit to put them back in my queue. Or maybe I already submitted it, but didn't regenerate the visible spec? Lemme check. |
| 16:29 | <TabAtkins> | Nope, not committed yet, per <http://www.xanthir.com/feed/public-css-commits/?format=html&spec=css3-images>;. |
| 16:29 | <TabAtkins> | I'll do that real quick. |
| 16:29 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 16:31 | <TabAtkins> | Oh, right, I was waiting for some feedback from fantasai for some wording in the opening paragraphs for that property. Shrug, I'll handle that later. Committing change now. |
| 16:33 | <TabAtkins> | Done. |
| 16:43 | <chriseppstein> | I remember hearing a rumor that the css validator was being updated to handle vendor prefixes. is this true? |
| 16:43 | <MikeSmith> | you know, assertions of unanimity of opinion/outrage about a particular issue within a particular community are often complete bullshit |
| 16:43 | <MikeSmith> | just sayin' |
| 16:43 | <Ms2ger> | Not afaik |
| 16:43 | <TabAtkins> | I heard this from Jens. |
| 16:45 | <MikeSmith> | people who disagree with the moral majority are unfortunately too unwilling to actually speak out and say that they don't really care about whatever hobbyhorse issue somebody is claiming to lobby for on behalf of some particular "community" |
| 16:46 | <Ms2ger> | I am willing to speak out and say that I don't care how code points are formatted |
| 16:46 | <MikeSmith> | or even that they actually completely disagree |
| 16:46 | <MikeSmith> | or don't care either way |
| 16:47 | <MikeSmith> | "the sky is falling" rhetoric, in general, is just really stupis |
| 16:47 | <MikeSmith> | *stupid |
| 16:47 | <TabAtkins> | What's the issue of the day? |
| 16:47 | <MikeSmith> | I wonder when they are going to understand that expressions of outrage, no matter how heartfelt, do not make for convincing arguments |
| 16:48 | <MikeSmith> | TabAtkins: no comment |
| 16:48 | <TabAtkins> | Darn. |
| 16:49 | <MikeSmith> | "I am outraged about this, and I will do everything I can to make others outraged about it. Therefore, do what I say." |
| 16:49 | <MikeSmith> | …or else |
| 16:51 | <Philip`> | Yeah, like there's all these people protesting about something or other in the Middle East, while the majority of people who don't care and just want to get on with their lives are being ignored |
| 16:52 | <MikeSmith> | you can pretty much guarantee that when somebody tells you, "Community X is going to be outraged if you do this.", what they really mean is, "I will actively attempt to whip Community X into a frenzy if you don't do what I am demanding." |
| 16:53 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, I guess I should shut up now |
| 16:57 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: I take it that you don't subscribe to the view that the grass-roots "pro-democracy" events in north africa are necessarily going to results in a rosier future for the people there? |
| 16:58 | <TabAtkins> | I think Philip` subscribes to the view that the grass is always deviler on the advocate's side. |
| 16:58 | <MikeSmith> | again, I guess I should shut up |
| 16:59 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 17:00 | <MikeSmith> | beautiful |
| 17:00 | <MikeSmith> | TabAtkins: you should write for Poetry Magazine |
| 17:00 | <TabAtkins> | Heh. |
| 17:00 | <TabAtkins> | Unrelated: beautiful! http://blog.creativespark.co.uk/2011/02/nice-to-meet-you/ |
| 17:04 | <beowulf> | mmm, deviled grass |
| 17:07 | <karlcow> | it's because of deviled grass that cows got horns from belzebuth |
| 17:09 | <karlcow> | TabAtkins: this meeting room is… hmmm… disturbing |
| 17:09 | <TabAtkins> | karlcow: Hm? |
| 17:10 | <karlcow> | I would prefer something more natural than cartoonish :) |
| 17:10 | <karlcow> | not a big fan of this design |
| 17:10 | <TabAtkins> | Heh, kk. I really like the aesthetic. |
| 17:10 | <MikeSmith> | I like cartoons |
| 17:11 | <MikeSmith> | except, the cartoon characters should be depicted having sex with each other |
| 17:11 | <TabAtkins> | In this case, the characters are a bear, two squirrels, a fox, and a small child. |
| 17:12 | <karlcow> | MikeSmith: now you are talking :p |
| 17:12 | <karlcow> | We are approaching the NYTimes quote |
| 17:12 | <MikeSmith> | I like the use of the word "nice" at least |
| 17:13 | <MikeSmith> | because the real lesson here is, if you are royal dick, please don't get involved in standards work |
| 17:13 | <MikeSmith> | please instead find another hobby |
| 17:14 | <karlcow> | TabAtkins: this is the space I would prefer http://coolboom.net/architecture/selgascano-architecture-office/ |
| 17:14 | <karlcow> | MikeSmith: william will join the HTMLWG? |
| 17:15 | <karlcow> | after the wedding? |
| 17:15 | <MikeSmith> | eh? |
| 17:15 | <karlcow> | http://www.theroyalweddingwilliamkate.com/ |
| 17:16 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 17:16 | <MikeSmith> | dude |
| 17:16 | <MikeSmith> | please |
| 17:16 | <karlcow> | ;) |
| 17:16 | <karlcow> | I knew you would love it |
| 17:17 | <MikeSmith> | the world would be a much better place if the "royal families" of the world were summarily destroyed in one fell sweep |
| 17:17 | <MikeSmith> | along with the Paris Hiltons and Silvio Berlusconis of the world |
| 17:18 | <MikeSmith> | btw, congratulations Italy on electing the equivalent of Paris Hilton to be your leader for all these years |
| 17:18 | <MikeSmith> | it gives the rest of the world so much confidence in you as a nation |
| 17:23 | <karlcow> | I think the world would be a better place without… hmmm too long list |
| 17:37 | <TabAtkins_> | Awesome, I was able to get a sxsw hotel. I'm all set now. Woo! |
| 17:39 | <karlcow> | http://n.survol.fr/n/how-media-queries-slow-the-mobile-web |
| 18:07 | <annevk> | gears of war 3 sep 20?! |
| 18:08 | <annevk> | that's like the only game I'm interested in playing this year (well, and maybe a new zelda if nintendo gets around to releasing something decent) |
| 18:19 | <TabAtkins> | Hm. I can construct an SVG with only an aspect ratio (no width or height) by using viewBox, right? |
| 18:33 | <TabAtkins> | The answer is "yes". |
| 18:34 | <TabAtkins> | Also, I'm still in love with Chrome's Instant feature for hacking out a data url, so I can watch it be constructed as I type. |
| 18:35 | <Philip`> | Like the Live DOM Viewer but with a tiny input box? |
| 18:35 | <TabAtkins> | Yes. |
| 18:36 | <Philip`> | I wonder if it's bad that pushing to dvcs.w3.org says |
| 18:36 | <Philip`> | remote: rm: cannot remove `/u/test.w3.org/html';: Permission denied |
| 18:38 | <TabAtkins> | I don't understand how people are talking about this like it's a bad thing: http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Make-a-Cadbury-Egg-Salad-Sandwich/ |
| 18:39 | <AryehGregor> | Wikipedia has finally switched to an HTML5 doctype. |
| 18:40 | <AryehGregor> | Yay. |
| 18:41 | <nimbupani> | woot |
| 18:41 | <AryehGregor> | Not valid, of course. Oh well. |
| 19:03 | <TabAtkins> | Do iframes delay the rest of the page? I dont' think they actually stop the rest of the page from rendering, but do they delay the load event? |
| 19:49 | <bfrohs> | Interesting piece of information: YouTube and Twitter are unusable without JavaScript |
| 19:59 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: Yes |
| 20:31 | <TabAtkins> | Computed Languages as high-school essays: http://i.imgur.com/ZyeCO.jpg |
| 20:31 | <TabAtkins> | s/Computed/Computer/ |
| 22:05 | <AryehGregor> | No Javascript on this page |
| 22:05 | <AryehGregor> | If <script> tags have a "type" attribute it should equal "text/javascript" or "application/javascript" |
| 22:05 | <AryehGregor> | From Firebug, on: http://aryeh.name/spec/editcommands/implementation.html |
| 22:05 | <AryehGregor> | . . . |
| 22:38 | <dglazkov> | Hixie: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=54820#c6 |
| 22:51 | <zewt> | cursed script execution thread split into four separate threads in gmail |
| 23:27 | <TabAtkins> | Yet another reason top-posting is horrible: it doesn't encourage you to trim the message you're replying to. I'm looking at a message right now which has a segment nested under *34* > symbols. |
| 23:28 | <AryehGregor> | Yeah, that's the most annoying thing about it. |
| 23:28 | <zewt> | it's bugged me for a long time that gmail basically endorses top-posting |
| 23:28 | <zewt> | by setting mails up for it automatically |
| 23:28 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, I know. |
| 23:28 | <TabAtkins> | It would be much better if it didn't insert the two blank lines at top, and focused the textarea at the bottom. |
| 23:28 | <zewt> | i mean, there are cases for it (eg. my last mail to webapps), but that's maybe 5% of the time |
| 23:28 | <AryehGregor> | I top-post in private e-mails, generally, because if you have a decent mail client (i.e. Gmail), the previous messages will be right there anyway, and it's unlikely to be ambiguous what you're replying to. |
| 23:29 | <TabAtkins> | I usually don't even do that. I'll just reformat other people's messages to me to be bottom-posted. |
| 23:29 | <AryehGregor> | But it doesn't work so well for mailing lists, where posts are often longer and there are often multiple threads of discussion within a topic. |
| 23:29 | <zewt> | i think the only convincing argument for top-posting (and making clients good at handling it) is that average users don't really "get" inline-replies |
| 23:30 | <zewt> | know what's worse than top posting? "my replies are in red" |
| 23:30 | <AryehGregor> | That's truly awful. |
| 23:30 | <zewt> | i really, really, really want a way to tell gmail to ignore all fonts in emails |
| 23:30 | <AryehGregor> | Although I can't help but be amused at the irony of me getting annoyed at people sending HTML-formatted e-mail to an HTML specification list. |
| 23:30 | <AryehGregor> | zewt, site CSS? |
| 23:31 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm, Gmail is probably inscrutable div soup. |
| 23:31 | <zewt> | yeah, gmail's css/classes/ids are all dynamically "compressed" so it's very hard to do anything useful with eg. stylish |
| 23:31 | <zewt> | even if i got it to work, it'd probably just break the next time anything changed |
| 23:32 | <zewt> | such lovely class names as cnYuxb xY zA yO F cf zt |
