| 02:49 | roc | wonders where annevk is |
| 02:55 | <ojan> | roc: u gonna be a tpac? |
| 02:55 | <roc> | no |
| 02:56 | <ojan> | roc: k...just wondering |
| 02:56 | <roc> | I'm not a huge fan of face-to-face standards work to be honest |
| 02:57 | <ojan> | me neither really |
| 02:57 | <ojan> | but it's good to meet people in erspon |
| 02:57 | <roc> | yeah, I like that, but large groups freak me out |
| 02:58 | <roc> | where are you based btw? |
| 03:15 | <ojan> | roc: sorry, was afk... |
| 03:15 | <ojan> | roc: i'm in SF..so this tpac is easy for me :) |
| 03:15 | <ojan> | i'll probably only be there mon/tues though |
| 03:16 | <ojan> | there was a while where i was in sydney frequently...but haven't been since april |
| 04:33 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: You should be able to test for type error using assert_throws(TypeError(), fun); |
| 05:41 | <annevk> | Yeah so currently storing two pointers for Selector matching would yield the incorrect result. |
| 05:42 | <annevk> | Because if you define an attribute named "HREF" through the DOM on an HTML element, that should still match [href] per current specifications. |
| 05:42 | <annevk> | And it will in e.g. Gecko. |
| 05:43 | <annevk> | So either we need to drop the notion that Selector matching happens case-insensitively for HTML and require the double-pointer approach, or we all need to do case-insensitive matching. |
| 05:43 | <annevk> | Edge cases... |
| 06:46 | <annevk> | Hmm, seems I should really get around to writing a WHATWG Weekly |
| 06:46 | <Hixie> | well i just gave you something to talk abuot |
| 06:47 | <annevk> | Yeah, but I already had a big list :) |
| 07:11 | <boblet> | is there a <data> equivalent of <time pubdate> besides schema.org? |
| 07:11 | <boblet> | also, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-index.html doesn't seem to load for me? |
| 07:12 | <Hixie> | boblet: well you can use any microdata vocabulary or microformats vocabulary, i guess :-) |
| 07:12 | <Hixie> | boblet: e.g. hAtom |
| 07:13 | <Hixie> | what is section-index supposed to be? |
| 07:14 | <Hixie> | looks like i'm getting it that way from anne |
| 07:15 | <Hixie> | annevk: i'm getting some weird stuff in the zip file, in fact |
| 07:15 | <boblet> | Hixie: trying to load http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-index.html#attributes-1 to confirm @pubdate is dropped :) |
| 07:15 | <Hixie> | including a do-multipage-... file? |
| 07:15 | <boblet> | that’s the link in Index at the bottom of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ |
| 07:15 | <Hixie> | let me try to regen it manually |
| 07:18 | <Hixie> | boblet: how's now? |
| 07:18 | <annevk> | Hixie, oh again? :( |
| 07:18 | <boblet> | Hixie: wfm |
| 07:18 | <annevk> | foolip made some changes recently |
| 07:18 | <Hixie> | annevk: looks like the section thing was a one-off error |
| 07:18 | <Hixie> | annevk: but there's a do-multipage-... file that seems odd |
| 07:18 | <Hixie> | annevk: dunno what it is |
| 07:19 | <Hixie> | annevk: it's ok otherwise |
| 07:19 | <boblet> | needing to move to a microdata/microformats vocab to convey pubdate (which I’d assume search engines would like) seems like a big increase in code. otoh i was wanting updated date anyhow. hrm |
| 07:20 | <annevk> | Hixie, I think that's the file it fetches in order to do the update |
| 07:20 | <Hixie> | boblet: search engines want schema.org apparently :-) |
| 07:20 | <Hixie> | annevk: but why is it ending up in the archive? |
| 07:20 | <annevk> | because I'm doing a wget |
| 07:20 | <Hixie> | use -O - :-) |
| 07:21 | <boblet> | Hixie: if it works as an encouragement for everyone to change time@pubdate to schema.org/blogpost then sure that’s great |
| 07:22 | <boblet> | will have to write something for HTML5 Doctor now too, and publish something about microdata blogpost vocab. making us work again! sheesh :) |
| 07:23 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 07:23 | <Hixie> | <time pubdate> was going nowhere fast |
| 07:23 | <Hixie> | and was disproportionally expensive in terms of what it required of implementations |
| 07:24 | <Hixie> | so... |
| 07:26 | <boblet> | I was siding with <time> needing some time to implement (l10n stuff always takes forever), but if browsers can use <data itemprop="datePublished"> for the same purpose… <data> def. helps with adding microdata (crap, another two articles I’ll need to update >_<) |
| 07:27 | <annevk> | <time> would prolly have ended up like counters in CSS |
| 07:27 | <annevk> | kind of cool, but hardly used, and disproportionate complexity |
| 07:27 | <boblet> | Hixie: btw, did you read the <u> element article? I had several quotes from you in there http://html5doctor.com/u-element |
| 07:28 | <boblet> | annevk: is this CSS2.1 or CSS3? ;) |
| 07:28 | <boblet> | TabAtkins’ rewrite is much cleaner |
| 07:28 | <boblet> | really looking forward to that being implemented |
| 07:30 | <annevk> | boblet, 2 |
| 07:30 | <annevk> | boblet, is css3-lists touching counters? |
| 07:30 | <annevk> | boblet, I thought that was just lists and stuff |
| 07:34 | <boblet> | annevk: I thought css3 lists would be flexible enough to do the same use-cases, but I’m prolly just confused |
| 07:36 | <annevk> | boblet, counters can be used for way more than lists |
| 07:38 | <annevk> | boblet, does not seem like css3-lists defines counter-increment and such, it does refer to them |
| 07:52 | <matjas> | so, is <data data-data=data>data</data> now valid HTML? |
| 07:52 | <annevk> | no |
| 07:53 | <annevk> | value is required |
| 07:53 | <matjas> | i see |
| 07:59 | <matjas> | no replacement for `valueAsDate`? :( |
| 08:02 | <annevk> | does new Date() not do that? |
| 08:03 | <annevk> | bah |
| 08:03 | <annevk> | web-apps-tracker is generating errors :( |
| 08:05 | <matjas> | hovering over the data element section brings up a link to the abbr element: http://i.imgur.com/HIWhh.png typo? |
| 08:06 | <matjas> | in the last example, should the <data> element be closed explicitly? <tr> <td> 1830 <td> <data value="8">Eight</data> <td> <data value="93">19+74 hexes (93 total) |
| 08:06 | <annevk> | the first is prolly because <data> does not have its own section yet |
| 08:06 | <annevk> | the second is a bug |
| 08:07 | <annevk> | I guess html5.org went over some storage limit |
| 08:07 | <annevk> | 50 GiB or so |
| 08:08 | <annevk> | I'll just empty the cache as a hack |
| 08:10 | <annevk> | whoa, it was approaching 60 |
| 08:10 | <annevk> | way to go for simple SVN diffs |
| 08:10 | <matjas> | annevk: thanks for confirming, I’ll file it |
| 08:30 | <annevk> | http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-time-data |
| 10:30 | <roc> | annevk: what did you think about my fullscreen suggestion for a fullscreen element stack? |
| 10:31 | <annevk> | I suggested that in http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-October/033549.html but responses were not enthusiastic |
| 10:34 | <roc> | I don't think they thought through the implications |
| 10:35 | <roc> | the nested case is not some complex edge case that most apps can't hit. You can hit it as soon as you can make a document full-screen that contains some other content that supports full-screen, which could easily happen by accident even |
| 10:36 | <roc> | as soon as you have a document that supports full-screen that might contain an embedded Youtube video, for example |
| 10:37 | <roc> | I'll follow up to that thread |
| 10:40 | <annevk> | Please only talk about making elements fullscreen though |
| 10:40 | <annevk> | We're not really making documents fullscreen |
| 10:40 | <roc> | ok |
| 10:43 | <annevk> | One alternative is making requestFullscreen always do its thing and exitFullscreen always do a full exit |
| 10:43 | <roc> | that seems broken |
| 10:44 | <annevk> | Yeah, though given the number of different scenarios I think the user will always find it confusing :( |
| 10:44 | <roc> | we can at least make the simple things work |
| 10:45 | <annevk> | If the user is already fullscreen for instance (by using F11) and then gets the message that "Esc" will get him/her out but it will actually not... |
| 10:45 | <roc> | actually it will |
| 10:46 | <roc> | "Esc" has to always bust out of all fullscreening |
| 10:46 | <annevk> | Gecko will exit browser fullscreen if element fullscreen is quit? |
| 10:46 | <annevk> | I doubt users will like that... It's not how browser fullscreen and YouTube behave today |
| 10:47 | <roc> | I'm not sure what the current behavior is, but I think it needs to break out |
| 10:48 | <annevk> | If I use fullscreen mode on Mac OS I don't want the browser to just exit that after I have watched a video |
| 10:48 | <roc> | well, that can be up to the UA |
| 10:50 | <roc> | if the UA is permanently in fullscreen mode then I don't think "press ESC to exit fullscreen" would ever be the right message to display |
| 11:47 | <benschwarz> | heyo |
| 11:47 | <benschwarz> | annevk: whats the scoop with <time> ? #whatwg list? |
| 11:48 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13240 ? |
| 11:48 | <benschwarz> | w3 change? |
| 11:48 | <annevk> | suggestion has been out there for several months |
| 11:48 | <annevk> | not sure what you mean |
| 11:48 | <benschwarz> | never caught it… |
| 11:49 | <benschwarz> | I was wondering where it orginated from |
| 11:49 | <benschwarz> | … people have already implemented time |
| 11:50 | <benschwarz> | annevk: so is the resolve to use <data> with a rel attribute? or… data-*? |
| 11:50 | <annevk> | depends on what you are trying to do |
| 11:51 | <benschwarz> | ok. so display the time that an article was published… |
| 11:51 | <benschwarz> | and er… I can't think of a more data driven example. |
| 11:51 | <benschwarz> | … its a strange change |
| 11:51 | <annevk> | prolly just <p class=meta> as before |
| 11:52 | <annevk> | just displaying doesn't need to be machine readable |
| 11:52 | <annevk> | but if you want it to be machine readable, the specification includes some examples using the http://schema.org/Blog vocabulary |
| 11:55 | <benschwarz> | no one uses schema vocabularies :) |
| 11:56 | <benschwarz> | (you know, in the real world) |
| 12:00 | <annevk> | yeah, I don't really care |
| 12:01 | <annevk> | I mean, I don't really care about schema.org or Microdata that much |
| 12:01 | <annevk> | it's better than RDFa, but still pretty complex and not too useful |
| 12:03 | <Tuju> | is there a way to define CSS version when introducing it in xhtml headers? |
| 12:04 | <annevk> | CSS has no versions |
| 12:04 | <benschwarz> | annevk: well, I tend to agree. It means nothing to the real world, acedemics might argue… but the rest of the world isn't convinced :) |
| 12:05 | <Tuju> | i just read about CSS tag overflow and it had comment 'this might change in version 2.1' - how are people supposed to design some appearance if terminal software don't know how they're supposed to interpret it? |
| 12:06 | <Ms2ger> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 12:06 | <annevk> | Tuju, where does it say that? |
| 12:06 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, more like, midday? |
| 12:07 | <Tuju> | http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visufx.html#overflow-clipping "Note. In CSS 2.1, all clipping regions are rectangular. We anticipate future extensions to permit non-rectangular clipping. Future updates may also reintroduce a syntax for offsetting shapes from each edge instead of offsetting from a point." |
| 12:07 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, sure |
| 12:08 | <annevk> | Tuju: the future extensions will degrade gracefully |
| 12:08 | <Tuju> | meaning that they don't change earlier behaviour? |
| 12:08 | <annevk> | Tuju: none of the languages for the web has versioning, software just interprets per whatever they implemented |
| 12:09 | <annevk> | Tuju: typically, though sometimes earlier behavior is changed if it doesn't cause too much problems |
| 12:09 | <smaug____> | JS has versioning |
| 12:09 | <Tuju> | annevk: that could very well be the reason why the web is such a mess. |
| 12:09 | <smaug____> | (thought I don't recall what HTML spec says about js versioning ) |
| 12:09 | <annevk> | Tuju: see http://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/#degrade-gracefully for more information |
| 12:09 | <Tuju> | devs use that constantly as an excuse to produce invalid crap that don't render correctly. |
| 12:09 | <smaug____> | s/thought/though/ |
| 12:09 | <annevk> | smaug____: mostly Mozilla proprietary |
| 12:10 | <annevk> | smaug____: and the "use strict"; mode switch of course |
| 12:10 | <annevk> | Tuju: "invalid crap" might change in the future |
| 12:11 | <Tuju> | annevk: what do you mean by that? |
| 12:11 | <annevk> | Tuju: so whoever is using that as excuse is wrong |
| 12:11 | <Tuju> | that's not a big relief. |
| 12:11 | <annevk> | Tuju: e.g. overflow-x:scroll was invalid at some point, but now it is valid |
| 12:11 | <Tuju> | page still does not work. |
| 12:11 | <Ms2ger> | smaug____, the HTML spec doesn't say anything, I believe.. It just says to support all the mime types |
| 12:12 | <annevk> | it might say something about E4X |
| 12:12 | <annevk> | but that's obsolete now |
| 12:12 | <Ms2ger> | Mm, yeah |
| 12:12 | <annevk> | someone should prolly file a bug on that |
| 12:13 | <Ms2ger> | Why is it obsolete? |
| 12:13 | <smaug_____> | interesting. did I just manage to overheat this laptop |
| 12:14 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: a) Brendan made E4X work without that flag and b) E4X is disabled in strict mode meaning it is on its way out |
| 12:14 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: well, got disabled |
| 12:14 | annevk | wonders why smaug____ is not just smaug |
| 12:14 | <Ms2ger> | Because it's a common nick |
| 12:14 | <smaug____> | because someone else is smaug |
| 12:14 | <smaug____> | in some other channel |
| 12:14 | <Ms2ger> | Lots of dragons on freenode |
| 12:14 | <gsnedders> | Why so many underscores? |
| 12:15 | <smaug____> | because someone else is using all the other forms of smaug_* |
| 12:15 | <smaug____> | ____ is just the tail |
| 12:17 | <smaug____> | annevk: what you mean with "Brendan made E4X work without that flag" ? |
| 12:17 | <smaug____> | I thought you need a flag to enable it |
| 12:18 | <annevk> | no |
| 12:18 | <annevk> | you can just do |
| 12:18 | <annevk> | var x = <fancy/> |
| 12:18 | <annevk> | and you have some XML in your x |
| 12:20 | <smaug____> | really |
| 12:20 | <smaug____> | I thought you need some flag in the <script> element |
| 12:25 | <annevk> | yeah before, but Brendan figured something out that worked around why that was required in the first place |
| 12:28 | <Ms2ger> | The problem was <!--, IIRC |
| 12:29 | <hsivonen> | does Harmony try to do out of band or per-.js file versioning? |
| 12:30 | <annevk> | I hope neither |
| 12:31 | <Ms2ger> | The idea was using type= :/ |
| 12:33 | <annevk> | ffs |
| 13:31 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: when you have time, please take a look at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10174#c4 |
| 13:32 | <MikeSmith> | reproducible intermittent bug when trying to validate http://nisza.org/rendering_tests/utf-8-validation.html |
| 13:40 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: in my environment, from a clean install and build from the upstream sources, I can reproduce this 100% of the time |
| 13:40 | <MikeSmith> | with that http://nisza.org/rendering_tests/utf-8-validation.html file |
| 13:41 | <MikeSmith> | I don't actually understand why in the W3C validator environment it doesn't occur 100% of time, except that must sometimes be gzipping it and other times not |
| 18:34 | <smaug____> | annevk: does Opera use NSS? |
| 18:39 | <gsnedders> | smaug____: No. |
| 18:40 | <gsnedders> | smaug____: Uses OpenSSL |
