| 00:28 | <Hixie> | abarth: is there a more up to date reference for "The Web Origin Concept" than the RFC? |
| 00:30 | <abarth> | Hixie: nope |
| 00:30 | <Hixie> | k |
| 00:58 | <crankharder> | my cache manifest looks somethin like this: http://pastie.org/3338233 -- after it gets loaded, it seems that any page that returns a 404/500 gets redirected to the cached version of /offline, even when still online |
| 02:21 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: on the topic of unnecessary headers: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Feb/0144.html |
| 02:21 | <MikeSmith> | (in this case, response headers) |
| 02:31 | <MikeSmith> | I wish it was possible to run Firefox and Nightly at the same time |
| 02:32 | <heycam> | it is! |
| 02:33 | <heycam> | you just need to start from the command line to do it |
| 02:33 | <heycam> | and use separate profiles |
| 02:39 | <MikeSmith> | heycam: ah, OK |
| 02:39 | <MikeSmith> | didn't know |
| 09:18 | <annevk> | morning |
| 09:27 | <annevk> | oh yes |
| 09:27 | <annevk> | HTTP was fixed with regards to automatic redirect behavior |
| 09:27 | <annevk> | only took half a decade |
| 09:34 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: dunno if you saw my ping about this earlier, but on the topic of unnecessary headers: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Feb/0144.html |
| 09:34 | <MikeSmith> | response header in this case |
| 09:52 | <zcorpan> | "I think that while talking about responsive image, introducing element that would choose image based on media-query, we should explore more generic approach... any media" |
| 09:52 | <zcorpan> | OK, now that thread totally lost track of the original problem |
| 09:52 | <wilhelm_> | zcorpan: Which list? |
| 09:52 | <zcorpan> | whatwg |
| 09:53 | <zcorpan> | http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-February/034767.html |
| 09:55 | <annevk> | there already is a media attribute |
| 09:55 | <zcorpan> | why stop there? let's reinvent SVG's <switch> |
| 09:56 | <MikeSmith> | oh did that some from SVG? |
| 09:56 | <annevk> | repressed CDF memories bubble up |
| 09:56 | <MikeSmith> | is that the same switch that was in early drafts of Web Forms 2.0? |
| 09:56 | <annevk> | I don't think so |
| 09:56 | <MikeSmith> | I had thought that came from XForms |
| 09:56 | <MikeSmith> | ah OK |
| 09:57 | <zcorpan> | wow i don't remember a WF2 <switch> |
| 09:57 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 09:57 | <zcorpan> | was it dropped in 2004? |
| 09:57 | <MikeSmith> | ah wait |
| 09:58 | <MikeSmith> | maybe it was in early Web Apps 1.0 |
| 09:58 | <MikeSmith> | lemme look |
| 09:58 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2005-09-01/#using |
| 09:59 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2005-09-01/#switch |
| 10:00 | <zcorpan> | was that for tabbed interfaces? |
| 10:01 | <zcorpan> | seems so |
| 10:01 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 10:03 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/WD-xforms-20010608/slice8.html#ui-conditional-switch |
| 10:03 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 10:03 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 10:03 | <MikeSmith> | that Xforms one was just a normal case-switch |
| 11:12 | <annevk> | http://validator.w3.org/nu/ |
| 11:46 | <MikeSmith> | http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ime-api/raw-file/default/use-cases/Overview.html |
| 11:49 | KjetilK | comes looking for annevk, long time :-) |
| 11:51 | <KjetilK> | annevk, people have been advocating putting Access-Control-Allow-Origin:* indiscriminately into response headers based on the CORS spec |
| 11:52 | <annevk> | hey man |
| 11:52 | <KjetilK> | I think it makes sense to do so, but when I read the spec, it seems to me it doesn't allow it |
| 11:52 | <KjetilK> | o/ |
| 11:52 | <annevk> | oh |
| 11:52 | <annevk> | it's allowed for sure |
| 11:52 | <KjetilK> | oh, ok |
| 11:52 | <annevk> | and it's safe, too |
| 11:52 | <KjetilK> | yeah, it amounts to saying "actually, I don't care" |
| 11:53 | <annevk> | unless it's an intranet resource or some such |
| 11:53 | <KjetilK> | right |
| 11:53 | <annevk> | then it's not safe |
| 11:54 | <KjetilK> | so, I suppose it is the start of 5.1 that is a bit confusing |
| 11:54 | <KjetilK> | since if I just follow the link to "simple cross-origin request", then, yes, it seems to be allowed |
| 11:54 | <KjetilK> | but if I just read on, then it seems it is conditional on the request Origin header |
| 11:55 | <annevk> | should clarify that I guess |
| 11:55 | <KjetilK> | would be nice |
| 11:57 | KjetilK | was about to create som Plack middleware for it, but sees it has already been done |
| 11:58 | <annevk> | cool |
| 12:01 | KjetilK | pings his favorite Debian developer about it instead |
| 12:02 | <annevk> | i think i'm gonna water down the server requirements |
| 12:03 | <annevk> | they are rough guidelines for certain scenarios, but servers can really do whatever the fuck they want |
| 12:03 | <annevk> | it doesn't matter |
| 12:03 | <KjetilK> | ok |
| 12:03 | <annevk> | as long as the clients are compliant everything should be good |
| 12:03 | <KjetilK> | yup |
| 12:03 | <KjetilK> | any timeline for it to go to Rec? |
| 12:04 | <annevk> | I don't really care, but people seem to try to push it to Last Call |
| 12:04 | <annevk> | so, couple more years maybe... |
| 12:04 | <KjetilK> | hehe |
| 12:04 | <annevk> | it's not going to change |
| 12:05 | KjetilK | would have liked a normative reference from the SPARQL 1.1 Protocol, but that's happening RSN :-) |
| 12:18 | <hsivonen> | Exorcising DTDs with RDFa: http://www.w3.org/News/2012.html#entry-9353 |
| 12:22 | <zcorpan> | wasn't there a DTD for RDFa+HTML? |
| 12:30 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: yeah, there is still |
| 12:30 | <MikeSmith> | oh |
| 12:30 | <MikeSmith> | no, not for RDFa+HTML specifically |
| 12:30 | <MikeSmith> | not currently at least afaik |
| 12:30 | <MikeSmith> | they do have a DTD in the RDF Core 1.1 spec |
| 12:31 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: there have been various RDFa + some legacy deliverable of the XHTML2 WG |
| 12:33 | <MikeSmith> | I seriously think we should have a policy that bans WGs from publishing any new DTDs |
| 12:33 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: I think it is dangerous to suggest that a content author would have sufficient knowledge to determine whether a particular phrase might be untranslatable in another language; this differs from specifically asserting that something should not be translated, as a name or technical term. |
| 12:34 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: I've pushed all changes upstream |
| 12:34 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: thanks |
| 12:34 | <MikeSmith> | thank you man |
| 12:35 | <zcorpan> | http://dev.w3.org/html5/rdfa/#validation |
| 12:35 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: :-( |
| 12:36 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: btw, if you happen to (re)look at the changesets, probably best to look in reverse chronological order, because I ending up backing out/reverting much of the initial changes |
| 12:36 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: that's an HTML WG deliverable, so it can be put through the Decision Process |
| 12:36 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 12:36 | <MikeSmith> | i guess I missed that part of the spec :( |
| 12:37 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: the validator doesn't start due to schema errors |
| 12:37 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 12:37 | <MikeSmith> | please retry it |
| 12:37 | <MikeSmith> | I found that too |
| 12:37 | <MikeSmith> | I think it's due to the presets changing and the entity map needing to be rebuilt |
| 12:37 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: sadly i've stopped caring about that kind of thing |
| 12:38 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: but if that doesn't work, lemme know |
| 12:38 | <zcorpan> | i've objected to dtds being written and new doctypes being minted before with not so much success |
| 12:39 | <hsivonen> | Prediction: Wikipedia will cite Appendix B.1 as the truth despite its rules about primary sources. |
| 12:39 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Google account lives again, FYI. |
| 12:39 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: what happened? |
| 12:39 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: ok. rerunning build.py fixed it |
| 12:40 | MikeSmith | breathes a sigh of reliev |
| 12:40 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: No idea. I got account login forwarding to generic "common reasons for an account to be disabled include ToS violations", etc. etc. Sent email questioning, 24 hours later I login again. |
| 12:40 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: Never heard from a human. |
| 12:41 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: scary to be chosen for deletion. but good that it was resolved so quickly |
| 12:42 | <hsivonen> | "The only difference between the RDFa 1.1 DTD versus the RDFa 1.1 Lite DTD is the addition of the following attributes to the metainformation attributes collection; content, rel, rev, datatype, resource, and inlist. " |
| 12:42 | <hsivonen> | what about href and src? |
| 12:42 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: Makes me want to prioritize moving my email off there higher. |
| 12:43 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: it's unfortunate that Gmail's UI is so vastly superior to Fastmail's |
| 12:45 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: I practically use the IMAP interface all the time. |
| 13:02 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15936 |
| 13:13 | <hsivonen> | this deployment mechanism for Validator.nu is so brittle |
| 13:13 | <hsivonen> | I expect real sysadmins to laugh at me |
| 13:13 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: could leave a comment on the blog post saying that's taking the spec too far |
| 13:13 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: not sure I care enough to change the post |
| 13:16 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: thanks |
| 13:19 | <hsivonen> | annevk: what's prefixing the Fullscreen API buying is so far other than sites having to support multiple syntaxes and "cancel" getting bikeshedded to "exit" and "S" to "s"? |
| 13:20 | <annevk> | anyone familiar with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagstuhl ? |
| 13:21 | <annevk> | hsivonen: dunno |
| 13:24 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: speaking of prefixes, it'd be nice to get Blob.mozSlice unprefixed (also webkitSlice) |
| 13:25 | <annevk> | I got an invite and they upgraded my academic credentials from nothing to Dr. |
| 13:25 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: is a bug on file? |
| 13:25 | <annevk> | not sure if that's a positive or negative, but the castle looks nice |
| 13:25 | <zcorpan> | not sure |
| 13:25 | <hsivonen> | annevk: everyone is a Dr. in Germany |
| 13:26 | <annevk> | so what about the people that actually studied? |
| 13:28 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: deployed to validator.nu |
| 13:29 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: excellent |
| 13:29 | <hsivonen> | annevk: doktordoktor I suppose :-) |
| 13:29 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: appears not, but i'll file |
| 13:29 | <MikeSmith> | glad the changes didn't cause anything to blow up |
| 13:29 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: it blew up deployment but I fixed it |
| 13:29 | <MikeSmith> | ok, glad for that |
| 13:29 | <MikeSmith> | and sorry if it blindsided you |
| 13:30 | <hsivonen> | fortunately, the app crashed before it told the old process to shut down |
| 13:30 | <hsivonen> | so there was no user-visible interruption in service |
| 13:31 | <MikeSmith> | ah good |
| 13:35 | <hsivonen> | hmm. glazou hasn't posted the most import post yet yet |
| 13:38 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: Done (awaiting moderation). |
| 13:38 | <annevk> | approved |
| 13:41 | <GPHemsley> | thanks |
| 13:43 | <annevk> | roc: I can email www-dom for you |
| 14:03 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=725289 |
| 14:07 | <zcorpan> | https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=78111 |
| 14:09 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: thanks. we should give you the bit that allows you to file confirmed bugs |
| 14:09 | <annevk> | webkit should too |
| 14:11 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I'm told you now have the CANCONFIRM bit |
| 14:12 | <annevk> | heh |
| 14:12 | <annevk> | open source, it works |
| 14:12 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: But you can't confirm it? ;) |
| 14:15 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: I haven't leveled high enough to confirm that someone can confirm |
| 14:27 | <matjas> | did this section get moved to a different spec? http://web.archive.org/web/20110123174457/http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/apis-in-html-documents.html#dom-innerhtml |
| 14:27 | <annevk> | yes |
| 14:28 | <annevk> | http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html |
| 14:28 | <annevk> | long time ago |
| 14:28 | <annevk> | you should read the WHATWG Weekly :p |
| 14:28 | <matjas> | i must’ve missed that one :( |
| 14:28 | <annevk> | spread the news :) |
| 14:29 | <matjas> | document.innerHTML used to be mentioned explicitly; has it been removed or does `element.innerHTML` imply it should also work for `document`? |
| 14:30 | <matjas> | http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html#innerhtml |
| 14:30 | <annevk> | Ms2ger killed it |
| 14:30 | <annevk> | and thereby broke XHR |
| 14:30 | <annevk> | he has yet to fix it somehow I believe |
| 14:32 | <hsivonen> | killed what? Document.innerHTML? |
| 14:32 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 14:32 | <hsivonen> | ok |
| 14:32 | <annevk> | lack of implementations |
| 14:32 | <hsivonen> | DOMParser FTW |
| 14:32 | <annevk> | I thought it was useful personally |
| 14:32 | <annevk> | people are actually testing XHR + data URLs because they want async |
| 14:33 | <annevk> | iirc |
| 14:33 | <annevk> | have to ask the typlab guys again |
| 14:33 | <hsivonen> | XHR is nicer that DOMParser of course |
| 14:33 | <hsivonen> | in Gecko, it does stuff on another thread and doesn't lock the UI |
| 14:34 | <annevk> | using XHR seems kind of hackish to me |
| 14:34 | <annevk> | but well, if it works |
| 15:08 | <zcorpan> | there's something wrong with table 1 in http://transitioning.to/2012/01/the-world-of-pain-that-is-html5-video/ |
| 15:09 | <zcorpan> | it doesn't include firefox 4 and above |
| 15:09 | <zcorpan> | maybe each version has less market share than ie6 |
| 15:10 | <zcorpan> | but that seems unlikely, no? |
| 15:12 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: not according to statcounter |
| 15:12 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: does Chrome really support HW acceleration for H.264? |
| 15:38 | <zcorpan> | i guess the ALA article is the reason for the new whatwg permathreads |
| 15:43 | <Wilto> | Whoever wrote that thing is a total hack. Handsome, though. |
| 15:44 | <Wilto> | But since you mentioned it, I'd kinda like to un-perma the <picture> thread, at least. There's a pretty solid general consensus, but now it's treading water a bit. |
| 15:45 | <Wilto> | I'm not certain what the next steps are, but I've pestered a couple of vendor folks about whipping up a functional prototype and I'm writing up a slightly more formal proposal based on the feedback in that thread. |
| 15:46 | <Ms2ger> | Wilto, wait until Hixie gets to it |
| 15:46 | <zcorpan> | the <picture> proposal from 2007 was totally different. it was for enabling rich fallback. |
| 15:46 | <Wilto> | Hah, I kinda thought that might be the next step. |
| 15:47 | <beverloo> | I like the <picture> proposal, but do also think it may be a bit ambiguous to authors to have <img>, <picture> and <figure> |
| 15:47 | <Wilto> | “picture” drives me up a wall. |
| 15:47 | <beverloo> | (name-wise) |
| 15:47 | <Wilto> | Yeah. |
| 15:48 | <Wilto> | I want something that says "bigass art." Like you guys saw, I've been chucking around "art" (dumb) and "poster" (ambiguous and also dumb). |
| 15:50 | <hsivonen> | Wilto: what Boris said about what media queries match changing after page load still applies to <picture>, though |
| 15:50 | <zcorpan> | Wilto: if you want a successful outcome, try to steer the discussion into use cases, problem descriptions, existing sites working around the lack of the feature, and away from solution proposals |
| 15:52 | <zcorpan> | Wilto: when all there is is solution proposals, it gets ignored |
| 15:52 | <zcorpan> | Wilto: if there's a clear problem description, a solution can be designed that solves the problem in the best technical way |
| 15:52 | <zcorpan> | having 20 people bikeshedding where the alt attribute should go is just wasting time |
| 15:53 | <Wilto> | zcorpan: Seriously, man. |
| 15:53 | jgraham | tried to move to use cases and failed to think of anything that could even possibly be a solution |
| 15:53 | <Wilto> | I mean, I can absolutely see use cases. I covered some in that ALA thing. Maybe I'll just move it back in that way. |
| 15:54 | <Wilto> | And I can cite no small number of failed attempts to work around the issue. |
| 15:54 | <zcorpan> | post use cases and work arounds to the list |
| 15:54 | <zcorpan> | that's what Hixie looks at |
| 15:55 | <zcorpan> | and then wait for Hixie to respond |
| 15:55 | <zcorpan> | good luck :-) |
| 15:56 | <Wilto> | Thanks dude! Huge help, this. |
| 15:56 | <zcorpan> | np |
| 15:59 | <AryehGregor> | Is this the "RWD Heaven" megathread that I've been ignoring? |
| 15:59 | <Wilto> | Nah, that thing scares the hell out of me. |
| 16:00 | <Wilto> | I'm not touching that discussion. |
| 16:00 | <jgraham> | And the child threads it spawned |
| 16:00 | <Wilto> | Is that how the <picture> thread kicked off? Eesh. |
| 16:00 | <Ms2ger> | (http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Bindings/), |
| 16:00 | <Ms2ger> | Heh |
| 16:00 | <Wilto> | No wonder it's going in circles. |
| 16:05 | <Wilto> | Anyway. Figure I'll post a big "maybe we're getting a little off-track here; let me sum up the original reasoning, the need, and how we arrived at some of the conclusions we did" thing on there. |
| 16:05 | <Wilto> | Thanks again, zcorpan! |
| 16:07 | <jgraham> | Wilto: Try to keep it short and to the point :) There are a few epic rambles on that thread already :) |
| 16:08 | <Wilto> | Oh, for sure. I'll keep it concise. |
| 16:09 | <Wilto> | I'd like to just say "everyone go read the history on the EtherPad link I posted, and around the third mention of <noscript> you may see where we've exhausted all our options." |
| 16:10 | <jgraham> | Wilto: So the most important thing is "what are your *requirements*" |
| 16:11 | <jgraham> | (weird use of quotes there) |
| 16:11 | <Wilto> | "A single request that serves an appropriately sized _content_ image, based on screen size." In a perfect world, that's based on media queries—since it would be crazy flexible going forward. |
| 16:12 | <Wilto> | But that's the elevator version of it. |
| 16:12 | <jgraham> | Just a simple list of "this is what we want to achieve" and "this is why we don't think it is only a temporary set of requirements" |
| 16:12 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: where is dom-bindings from? |
| 16:12 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: I guess it redirects... |
| 16:12 | <Ms2ger> | It does |
| 16:12 | <zcorpan> | Wilto: media queries is in the solution proposal bucket |
| 16:12 | <jgraham> | Wilto: That is sort of high-level. Your actual requirements must be lower level than that |
| 16:12 | <Wilto> | Yeah. Kind of an aside, there. |
| 16:12 | <Ms2ger> | I assume you ignore "exclusion opportunity" emails |
| 16:13 | <jgraham> | Liek why does the image have to be "appropriately sized" |
| 16:13 | <jgraham> | (can you even define what that means?) |
| 16:13 | <jgraham> | (because it probably doesn't mean "viewport width") |
| 16:13 | <Wilto> | That's a good point. |
| 16:14 | <jgraham> | (at least not at the time of the request) |
| 16:14 | <Wilto> | "Alternate image sources based on device properties, including but not limited to screen size." |
| 16:16 | <Wilto> | Sure wish I did words gooder. |
| 16:16 | <zcorpan> | maybe something like "i want users to see my images with as good quality as possible, as fast as possible, and with as little bandwidth as possible. the user should be able to print a high resolution image after going offline." |
| 16:17 | <zcorpan> | if that's what you want |
| 16:17 | <Wilto> | Ah, I follow you. I'm phrasing it like I'm pitching a line for a spec somewhere, not describing the goal. |
| 16:17 | <Wilto> | Also, that is completely what I want. |
| 16:18 | <zcorpan> | then say that :) |
| 16:18 | <Wilto> | Also a pony. |
| 16:18 | <Wilto> | Santa is really dropping the ball on those two fronts. |
| 16:19 | <Wilto> | Again: hugely helpful, guys. Thanks so much. |
| 16:19 | <MikeSmith> | hey guys, stop whatever else bulshit you're discussing, because game-changing breaking news just became available: "libreffice" not is including rich text editing |
| 16:19 | <MikeSmith> | using HTML 5 canvas |
| 16:19 | <jgraham> | Yeah, the key thing about use cases is that they are typically about what your *users* want |
| 16:19 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: no idea what it was originally? |
| 16:20 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: did you mean "not" or "now"? |
| 16:20 | <MikeSmith> | oops |
| 16:20 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 16:20 | <MikeSmith> | NOW |
| 16:20 | <MikeSmith> | see, nobody knew that before yesterday |
| 16:20 | <Wilto> | Apparently, shit just got real. |
| 16:20 | <annevk> | oh yeah http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-DOM-Bindings-20080410/ |
| 16:20 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: that won't pre-empt the thread, then :-/ |
| 16:20 | <annevk> | doh |
| 16:20 | <MikeSmith> | nobody involved in the discu ssions knew that until YESTERDAY |
| 16:20 | <zcorpan> | one solution i have proposed in the past is using high-res progressive image and http range requests, and let the UA download as much of the image it wants until it has good enough quality, and do a range request for more of the image when it wants higher quality (e.g. because the user zooms in) |
| 16:20 | <MikeSmith> | wink wink |
| 16:21 | <MikeSmith> | what a fuggin facade |
| 16:21 | <MikeSmith> | who is trying to fool who here? |
| 16:21 | <MikeSmith> | one fool talking to another and trying to pretend that neither of them knew |
| 16:21 | <MikeSmith> | BIG NEWS |
| 16:21 | <zcorpan> | but i don't know if that's the best possible solution to the problem |
| 16:21 | <MikeSmith> | jesus |
| 16:21 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I suppose that'd work with interlaced PNG, but is there a photo compression format where that works? |
| 16:22 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: (JPEG2000 is not it) |
| 16:22 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: normal JPEG supports progressive compression. is that not good enough? |
| 16:22 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: that is, a format that has the property that to decode with both dimensions halved, you download the first quarter of data |
| 16:22 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: does it have the property I just stated? |
| 16:23 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: JPEG2000 was supposed to be an improvement in this department, but it was full of FAIL |
| 16:23 | <zcorpan> | no idea |
| 16:23 | <annevk> | haha "alexmog: More people understand matrices than margin collapsing" |
| 16:23 | <hsivonen> | to decode JPEG2000 with dimensions halved without compromising quality, you need to download the first *half* of data |
| 16:23 | <MikeSmith> | Wilto: btw your tweets are a model for how others should conduct themselves on twitter |
| 16:24 | <hsivonen> | annevk: matrices are taught in high school |
| 16:24 | <zcorpan> | my idea is for it to work like <video> fetching where you do an unbounded range fetch and abort when you have "enough" |
| 16:24 | <zcorpan> | and do another request when you want more |
| 16:24 | <hsivonen> | annevk: margin collapsing wasn't taught when I want to school |
| 16:25 | <annevk> | you got matrix math in high school? i'm so jealous |
| 16:25 | <jgraham> | We got it in 6th form i.e. at age 17-18 |
| 16:25 | annevk | is prolly better with margin collapsing than matrices |
| 16:25 | <jgraham> | But not much, really |
| 16:26 | <Ms2ger> | 5th form! ;) |
| 16:26 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: on the subject of searching for appropriate words for things, I wonder if there is a word for "preach the process while simultaneously blowing smoke up everbody's asses" |
| 16:26 | <hsivonen> | annevk: it was an opt-in course of an opt-in level of math |
| 16:27 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: who is doing that? |
| 16:27 | <annevk> | ah, maybe it's Level A math |
| 16:27 | <annevk> | we had Level A 1,2 and Level B 1,2 |
| 16:27 | <annevk> | I did B 1,2 |
| 16:28 | <annevk> | which was mostly about proofs and silly things |
| 16:28 | <beverloo> | matrices sound much, much more like a B thing though |
| 16:28 | <beverloo> | given Dutch high-scool maths |
| 16:28 | <annevk> | yeah dunno |
| 16:28 | <annevk> | too late now |
| 16:29 | <annevk> | chance was Level A too, didn't make much sense either |
| 16:29 | <annevk> | especially as you needed it quite a bit in advanced Physics |
| 16:29 | <zcorpan> | Wilto: maybe the best solution to this problem is "give 10 developers a year or two to improve JPEG encoders to radically reduce file size/quality ratio of JPEG images" |
| 16:31 | <zcorpan> | any markup solution to this problem isn't going to be usable in the next few years anyway, whereas encoding improvements are available to authors immediately |
| 16:31 | <hsivonen> | it's nice that people are interested in improving JPEG encoders again |
| 16:32 | <hsivonen> | as I understand it, the encoder everyone uses is very old |
| 16:32 | <annevk> | decoder or encoder? |
| 16:32 | <zcorpan> | encoder |
| 16:32 | <hsivonen> | has it been improved since the Independent JPEG group dude wrote it? |
| 16:34 | <annevk> | supposedly Opera has a proprietary decoder (not sure about encoder) that's superior |
| 16:35 | <hsivonen> | superior in speed? memory footprint? |
| 16:35 | <annevk> | both I believe |
| 16:35 | <annevk> | but this information is quite old :) |
| 16:36 | <zcorpan> | next stop: örebro c |
| 16:36 | <annevk> | on the train? |
| 16:36 | <annevk> | guess so |
| 16:37 | <annevk> | so Sweden uses "C", Norway "S", and the Netherlands "CS" |
| 16:37 | <Ms2ger> | hbf? |
| 16:38 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: Germany |
| 16:38 | <Ms2ger> | Correct |
| 16:38 | <annevk> | Hauptbahnhof |
| 16:39 | <annevk> | kind of funny how in Norway and Sweden the words are put together whereas in Dutch, which typically does that, they are not |
| 16:40 | <annevk> | oh well, back to work |
| 17:03 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 17:16 | <MikeSmith> | dglazkov: you are too 元気過ぎ with that message |
| 17:16 | <MikeSmith> | or maybe not |
| 17:17 | <MikeSmith> | instead we need more positive vibrations |
| 17:18 | <Wilto> | MikeSmith: Swearing about the MBTA and referencing Zelda constantly? |
| 17:19 | <AryehGregor> | This demonstrates the value of testing lots of permutations: -ms-transform-origin: 0 0 1em computes to "0px 0px 0px", but "1em 0 1em" computes to "16px 0px 16px". |
| 17:19 | <AryehGregor> | Cool bug. |
| 17:19 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: We have a WebAPI for that right? |
| 17:21 | <MikeSmith> | you dudes are great |
| 17:21 | <MikeSmith> | you give me hope |
| 17:21 | <MikeSmith> | Wilto: keep that shit up man |
| 17:21 | <MikeSmith> | seriously |
| 17:22 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: but don't be quite so cynical |
| 17:22 | <MikeSmith> | there is hope |
| 17:22 | <Wilto> | MikeSmith: Will do, sir. Will do. |
| 17:36 | <dglazkov> | MikeSmith: stay positive, dammit! |
| 17:37 | <dglazkov> | MikeSmith: also, Google translate says your funny pictures mean "Too healthy" :) |
| 17:37 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 17:38 | <dglazkov> | or "past energetic", apparently. |
| 17:38 | <MikeSmith> | no |
| 17:38 | <MikeSmith> | keep pushing |
| 17:38 | <dglazkov> | that would be when I start all-caping my greetings. |
| 17:38 | <MikeSmith> | keep Dominic in the loop |
| 18:24 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: heh |
| 18:47 | <hober> | Wilto: if constantly swearing about the T is wrong, I don't want to be right |
| 18:52 | <kennyluck> | I think what the RWD thread needs is a wiki page. |
| 18:53 | <Ms2ger> | I think what it needs is a flamethrower |
| 18:54 | <Wilto> | That “heaven” one? |
| 18:55 | <Wilto> | hober: Our hatred only fuels the T. Until it falls over and/or bursts into flames. |
| 19:10 | <crankharder> | soooo: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9187094/application-cache-404-500-pages |
| 19:10 | <crankharder> | ^-- app cache, fallback, 400/500 pages |
| 19:11 | <hober> | Wilto: these days I spend my time cursing Muni; i'm just a veteran of T-cursing |
| 19:48 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: k |
| 19:55 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: sorry about the lack of transparency, fwiw |
| 19:56 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: as far as e-mail goes, what i do is have my own domain redirect all mail to gmail, and gmail redirect all mail back, so gmail is in the loop (and does spam filtering) but isn't in control (since i can always route around it) |
| 20:01 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: What I'd like to know, more than anything else, is what flipped the presumably automatic switch |
| 20:01 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: So I can make sure that isn't a side-effect of my setup |
| 20:20 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: yeah, the lack of transparency there sucks. i think the theory is that if we were transparent, abusers would be able to work out what the heuristics were and could game them |
| 20:21 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: but it still sucks |
| 20:42 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Any intention to move CanvasPixelArray over to a Uint8ClampedArray? |
| 20:42 | <Hixie> | what's CanvasPixelArray? :-) |
| 20:43 | <Hixie> | (we moved over months ago) |
| 20:43 | <gsnedders> | Ah, I missed that. :) |
| 20:43 | gsnedders | has scarcely followed HTML5-land in a while… |
| 20:44 | <Ms2ger> | I even fixed the tests, as Philip` doesn't work on them |
| 20:45 | <Ms2ger> | (Hi Philip`! Got something planned for tomorrow?) |
| 20:45 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: The ones in the W3C HTML5 test repo? |
| 20:45 | <Ms2ger> | Yep |
| 20:47 | <roc> | annevk: thanks for the email to www-dom. Also, I have been to Dagstuhl a couple of times |
| 20:50 | <Hixie> | lol, csswg wants to keep fullscreen in its charter |
| 20:50 | <Hixie> | meanwhile, the spec is being written elsewhere |
| 20:52 | <annevk> | roc: oh really, is it worth it? |
| 20:53 | <roc> | it will depend mostly on who's going and what the topic is |
| 20:54 | <roc> | I really liked the location but mainly because of the history, and you already live in a place that has history so that may not matter to you |
| 20:55 | <annevk> | kk, guess I won't be going then; not that much into security |
| 20:55 | <roc> | zcorpan: other than mysteriously failing to mention Firefox 4, they also fail to mention that Google has promised to remove H.264 from Chrome |
| 20:56 | <jgraham> | roc: So far that promise hasn't been worth much |
| 20:56 | <roc> | annevk: btw I don't know if you noticed, but hsivonen was castigating you for changing the case of the identifiers in the fullscreen spec |
| 20:57 | <roc> | jgraham: don't get me started |
| 20:57 | <Ms2ger> | Alright, we won't |
| 20:58 | <roc> | gaaaah |
| 20:58 | <roc> | something happened to my machine during a Windows update and now Flash crashes incessantly ... in all browsers |
| 20:59 | <jgraham> | Haha |
| 20:59 | <jgraham> | I suggest deleting flash :) |
| 22:18 | <roc> | This is the best idea I've heard all day: "I'm confident that if authors had to write "-webkit-contact-www-hyphen-style-at-w3-dot-org-for-standardization-text-size-adjust" that there would be a strong incentive to get the first W3C draft submitted quickly." |
| 22:24 | <annevk> | roc: the casing changed ages ago with some amount of discussion; if everyone thinks it's better with a dash and all I guess we should go with that, but it seems rather silly to me |
| 22:24 | <annevk> | and anyway, implementations are prefixed today so it does not seem to matter much |
| 22:25 | <annevk> | long term it seems that dashes in words go away anyway; just some kind of transition period |
| 22:25 | <roc> | there's no dash in our implementation |
| 22:25 | <roc> | we're currently mozRequestFullScreen |
| 22:26 | <roc> | and mozCancelFullScreen |
| 22:27 | <roc> | Webkit is analogous |
| 22:27 | <roc> | Henri was complaining that changing the case of the S and changing cancel to exit were bikeshedding changes |
| 22:28 | <roc> | (that we should have prevented by shipping unprefixed) |
| 22:28 | <roc> | I'd like you guys to sort it out :-) |
| 22:32 | <annevk> | there's a dash in the pseudo-class, implies camelcase in the name |
| 22:32 | <annevk> | both equally bad imo |
| 22:32 | <annevk> | guess I can ask hsivonen tomorrow |
| 22:33 | <annevk> | I don't really feel that strongly, but it seems that if it's acceptable to have a simpler to type variant, we should go with that |
| 22:37 | <jgraham> | roc: Not sure why a long silly name is good. The only way it would help would be to discourage people from using stuff. But if that was the goal, simply not releasing it would be far more effective. |
| 22:38 | <annevk> | meh |
| 22:38 | <annevk> | inbox 404 |
| 22:38 | <annevk> | i was at less than 330 or so |
| 22:39 | <annevk> | holidays are over it seems |
| 22:39 | <roc> | there are competing valid goals, so simply choosing some and dropping the others doesn't solve the problem |
| 22:39 | <jgraham> | You are aiming to reach 310? |
| 22:39 | <annevk> | maybe i should 410 it |
| 22:39 | <annevk> | inbox gone certainly has a nice ring to it |
| 22:39 | <jgraham> | Uh, yeah 410 |
| 22:39 | <jgraham> | Dammit |
| 22:39 | <annevk> | anyway, sleepytimes |
| 22:39 | <annevk> | nn |
| 22:41 | <jgraham> | roc: It isn't clear to me why anyone would favour the paricular compromise where you go for maximum ridiculosity in the name. |
| 22:45 | <roc> | annevk: oh, you're talking about the CSS identifiers? CSS is totally addicted to hyphens in names, there's no getting away from that |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: what's up with the itemprop="" error messages when validating the spec? |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: i don't see what's wrong with the markup |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: am i missing something? |