| 00:06 | <[tm]> | on the plus side, let's note how bitchin irssi connectbot for Android is |
| 08:37 | <zcorpan> | i removed outline-color from quirks mode, based on research (documented in the source) |
| 08:44 | <annevk> | "The script tag specifies a checksum calculated using a cryptographic hash function." |
| 08:44 | <annevk> | should be a FAQ entry for that one |
| 08:47 | <MikeSmith> | made some more updates http://platform.html5.org/history/ |
| 08:47 | <MikeSmith> | now I stop for beer |
| 08:48 | <annevk> | wise choice |
| 08:48 | <annevk> | if it was not 10AM I might join you |
| 08:56 | <asmodai> | Whoever is responsible for the new release note pages of Firefox, I like it: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/10.0.2/releasenotes/ |
| 08:56 | <asmodai> | Very clear to look at, as both user and dev. |
| 08:57 | <annevk> | argh |
| 08:57 | <annevk> | why does Julian not simply read the original thread |
| 08:58 | <asmodai> | annevk: By the way, do you know if Opera mobile will use some persistent state storage at some point on Android devices? |
| 08:58 | <asmodai> | annevk: i.e. to restore tabs when the app gets pushed out of memory. |
| 08:59 | <annevk> | I don't really know anything about that I'm afraid |
| 09:00 | <annevk> | we should though :) |
| 09:00 | <asmodai> | annevk: Should I file a bug report? |
| 09:00 | <annevk> | yeah sure |
| 09:06 | <asmodai> | ANDMEX-6344 it is |
| 09:24 | <zcorpan> | hmm, 'size' shows up quite a bit. wonder if they meant 'font-size' or the paged media property |
| 09:25 | <asmodai> | Firefox' save complete page ought to duplicate the entire visual aspect of a page, right? |
| 10:44 | <MikeSmith> | "Working for Opera, Anne was probably the only real representative of the web community at this conference." seems to be overstating things a bit |
| 10:58 | <annevk> | the mutation observer stuff is really quite good |
| 10:58 | <annevk> | just needs some more markup and a bit of rephrasing |
| 12:38 | <Velmont> | So... How does this spec thing really work, -- the IDB bugs I've been littering the bug tracker with, - the once that are agreed OK'd, who is supposed to update them? One of the editors I guess, -- but can I poke people directly in a way? |
| 12:38 | <annevk> | you can email the editors |
| 12:38 | <annevk> | i'd give them at least a few weeks though |
| 12:39 | <annevk> | unless it's important to settle it soonish |
| 12:39 | <Velmont> | Ok. :P |
| 12:39 | <Velmont> | Not really. I'm just impatient :P |
| 12:45 | <Velmont> | WAAT! searching for xhr2, the first result is no longer the spec. Actually... It isn't on the first page of google at all :-( |
| 12:49 | <jdalton> | wondering if anyone has stats on the average number of html tags used on web sites |
| 12:50 | <bga_> | ask google |
| 12:50 | <bga_> | :) |
| 12:50 | <Velmont> | I hate that the ECMA-262 is a PDF-file. I just want to look up stuff, not download that big document all the time. >:-( |
| 12:52 | <annevk> | Velmont: http://es5.github.com/ |
| 12:52 | <annevk> | Velmont: search for XHR |
| 12:52 | <Velmont> | annevk: Ah, how beautiful. -- Maybe the specs could now link directly also ;-) |
| 12:52 | <annevk> | Velmont: but even then you are mislead |
| 12:52 | <annevk> | misled |
| 12:53 | <annevk> | as it gives TR/ |
| 12:53 | <annevk> | Google should really learn to read the email archives and based on that demote TR/ links as people do not value them |
| 12:53 | <Velmont> | Yep. All this extra clicking. :-/ |
| 12:54 | <Velmont> | Well, we could just sync TR often... |
| 12:54 | <annevk> | haha, tell that to the W3C webmaster |
| 12:56 | <Velmont> | I mean, -- since everyone with a sane mind is supposed to use the dev versions, -- why is there another one at all? I think that strange. |
| 12:56 | <jgraham> | W3C is very strange |
| 12:56 | <Velmont> | Who wants the always out of date one? |
| 12:57 | <annevk> | ye olde guard |
| 12:57 | <jgraham> | Apparently some people critically depend on being out of date. These people are always shadowy and mysterious and rarely speak for themselves. |
| 13:00 | <matjas> | perhaps the data that was used when the most popular classnames were researched (and some HTML5 element names were decided) would be useful for jdalton… anyone got a link? |
| 13:00 | <kennyluck> | I honestly don't understand when people link to TR drafts. Where do people find those links? From the W3C site? |
| 13:00 | <jgraham> | From Google probably |
| 13:01 | <Velmont> | kennyluck: Google. I'm constantly at TR. |
| 13:01 | <jdalton> | word |
| 13:01 | <jgraham> | It often links me to TR/ |
| 13:01 | <Velmont> | Google is hurting standards. |
| 13:01 | <Velmont> | :P |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | hg diff is pretty terrible for https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core/changeset/e47f190a2bfb :( |
| 13:01 | <jgraham> | Then I have to do a special dance of rage to end up at dev.w3.org |
| 13:03 | <Velmont> | Anyway. Also, since I'm in a point out stuff-mood; why-o-why is there Hardware and OS in the W3C bugtracker? I don't see how that could ever be relevant to specs. -- version field is also a bit strange, but I can at least see that it can be used in some specs. |
| 13:04 | <annevk> | maybe that's hardcoded by bugzilla? |
| 13:04 | <annevk> | and there's some software projects that use bugzilla |
| 13:05 | <annevk> | W3C Bugzilla* |
| 13:05 | <Velmont> | Could be. Although I think the w3c bugzilla is quite nicely set up and easy to use. -- So it feels like an omission that those fields are there still. |
| 13:06 | <annevk> | could ask Mike |
| 13:06 | <annevk> | tomorrow that is |
| 13:06 | <annevk> | or tonight |
| 13:10 | <Philip`> | jdalton: Total number of tags, or number of distinct tag names? |
| 13:11 | <jdalton> | tags in general |
| 13:11 | <jdalton> | (number of tags) |
| 13:11 | <[tm]> | i don't know if there's any way to remove those in config of the bugzilla version we are running |
| 13:11 | <Philip`> | jdalton: You could sum all the numbers from http://philip.html5.org/data/tag-count-total.txt and divide by the number of pages (130K) if you want a mean |
| 13:13 | <jdalton> | cool thanks |
| 13:13 | <Philip`> | (Mean isn't necessarily highly representative though, since there might be a few pages that each have hundreds of thousands of tags) |
| 13:13 | <jdalton> | wow perfect thanks! |
| 13:14 | <jdalton> | sure but in general |
| 13:14 | <jdalton> | imma making a benchmark for using css expressions |
| 13:14 | <jdalton> | and wanted to know a good average page size |
| 13:14 | <jdalton> | this is great cuz its targeted per element |
| 13:46 | <Velmont> | Is there a way to get all comments and stuff from e.g. indexeddb bugs in w3c tracker? |
| 13:47 | <Velmont> | I've made a search, which I'm using. And I'm getting new bugs (from the mailing list), but not comments on bugs I'm not watching. |
| 13:58 | <annevk> | Velmont: also ask MikeSmith when he's around |
| 13:58 | <annevk> | Velmont: he can probably set something up if there's nothing |
| 14:01 | <[tm]> | I'm here but on my mobile so typing limited |
| 14:01 | <annevk> | it's too late to be here man :p |
| 14:01 | <annevk> | oh, it's only 11PM |
| 14:02 | <annevk> | I guess there was some time zone change |
| 14:02 | <[tm]> | i love you guys so much i can't bear to be apart |
| 14:02 | <Velmont> | :p |
| 14:04 | <[tm]> | on my second chu-hai waiting for effects to kick in |
| 14:04 | <annevk> | no shōchū? |
| 14:05 | <[tm]> | probably need about two more at least for the good vibrations to start flowing |
| 14:05 | <[tm]> | at karaoke place |
| 14:05 | <annevk> | at the corner? |
| 14:05 | <[tm]> | no good shochu here |
| 14:06 | <annevk> | wish I was there, sounds like fun :) |
| 14:06 | <[tm]> | annevk: different place |
| 14:07 | <[tm]> | not quite as funky as that corner place |
| 14:08 | <[tm]> | dude |
| 14:09 | <[tm]> | i got banned from fungo |
| 14:09 | <[tm]> | they don't like me passing out at the bar |
| 14:09 | <[tm]> | or something |
| 14:11 | <annevk> | actual lol here |
| 14:11 | <annevk> | hahaha |
| 14:11 | <annevk> | no kidding man |
| 14:11 | <annevk> | they're too expensive anyway |
| 14:52 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: what is that IDL bug report about? |
| 15:48 | <zcorpan> | <a style="{color: blue; background: d9eafe}:visited {color: green} |
| 15:48 | <zcorpan> | awesome |
| 15:49 | <Ms2ger> | DIdn't we have a CSS spec at some point that allowed that? |
| 15:50 | <zcorpan> | yeah i recall something also |
| 15:50 | <zcorpan> | oh the search is finished already |
| 15:51 | <zcorpan> | that was quick, the other regexes i've run took a lot longer |
| 15:51 | <charlvn> | zcorpan: where the heck did you find that?! |
| 15:51 | <zcorpan> | charlvn: dotnetdotcom's web200904 |
| 15:52 | <charlvn> | :D |
| 15:52 | <charlvn> | nice |
| 15:55 | <StoneCypher> | that's very neat, but inline styles are still the devil |
| 15:55 | <zcorpan> | $ grep -iaPo "<[a-z]+\s[^>]*style\s*=\s*[\"']{[^\"'>]+" web200904 > style-braces.txt |
| 15:55 | <zcorpan> | 6556 matches |
| 15:56 | <zcorpan> | seems like we should support that quirk huh |
| 15:56 | <StoneCypher> | horns, cloven hooves, barbed tail |
| 15:56 | <zewt> | out-of-line styles are the devil for a lot of locally isolated styles |
| 15:57 | <StoneCypher> | war of opinions! (deploys AA guns to western border) |
| 15:57 | <StoneCypher> | MY SIDE HAS BETTER UNIFORMS |
| 15:57 | <zewt> | my side has more readable source |
| 15:57 | <StoneCypher> | :( |
| 15:58 | <StoneCypher> | fine, mister legitimate arguments |
| 15:58 | <StoneCypher> | my side has better modularity and easier long term maintenance |
| 15:59 | <StoneCypher> | and better uniforms |
| 16:00 | <AryehGregor> | Wow, transitions are way more complicated than transforms. |
| 16:00 | <zewt> | my side has less modularity-for-the-sake of it and much easier long term maintenance (the amount of time I've spent jumping around source files to find things that are separated out for no more reason than "someone said it should always be this way and he sounded like he knew what he was talking about") |
| 16:01 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: Is that your version of "good morning whatwg"? |
| 16:01 | <jgraham> | You have started saying it regularly every day |
| 16:02 | <zewt> | right on the hour, no less |
| 16:02 | <zewt> | today, at least :P |
| 16:08 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, well, maybe for now. :) |
| 16:31 | <annevk> | oh |
| 16:31 | <annevk> | it seems removing isSameNode was successful after all |
| 16:31 | <annevk> | yay |
| 16:32 | <annevk> | hopefully next week I can finally work on encodings again |
| 16:33 | <annevk> | is http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/StringEncoding only discussed by the Kronos guys? |
| 16:33 | <annevk> | khronos |
| 16:35 | <jgraham> | Oh, adding character encoding related MAYs to the platform. Lovely. |
| 16:38 | <annevk> | i hope it's not happening like arraybuffer |
| 16:41 | <annevk> | "If <mediatype> is omitted, it defaults to text/plain;charset=US-ASCII." |
| 16:41 | <annevk> | " As a shorthand, "text/plain" can be omitted but the charset parameter supplied." |
| 16:41 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 16:42 | <annevk> | that seems buggy in Opera |
| 16:42 | <annevk> | data:;charset=hz-gb-2312,~~ |
| 16:43 | <annevk> | it's not really a good spec, but the intent is clear, sort of |
| 16:43 | <annevk> | that should give a single ~ |
| 16:46 | <annevk> | that is now CORE-44654 in case anyone cares |
| 16:46 | <Ms2ger> | Can't see that, I'm afraid |
| 16:47 | <jgraham> | Needs a longdesc |
| 16:48 | <Ms2ger> | Pff |
| 16:48 | <Ms2ger> | I used to use longdesc correctly |
| 16:50 | <Philip`> | I always use longdesc correctly, since the correct way is to not use it |
| 16:50 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Easy here <bug src="http://bugs.opera.com/browse/CORE-44654"; longdesc="http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120217#l-407">; |
| 16:50 | <annevk> | someone should write a new data URL spec maybe |
| 16:50 | Ms2ger | hears a volunteer |
| 16:50 | <jgraham> | What's wrong with the existing one? |
| 16:51 | <annevk> | somewhat vague |
| 16:51 | <annevk> | and it is missing http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#data:-urls-and-http |
| 16:51 | <Ms2ger> | Let's rewrite all the somewhat vague specs |
| 16:51 | <annevk> | it's on my future todo list |
| 16:51 | <annevk> | URL / MIME |
| 16:52 | <Ms2ger> | Once your current todo list is finished? :) |
| 16:52 | <annevk> | more likely when I get bored with the current one |
| 16:52 | <annevk> | but ideally yes |
| 16:52 | Ms2ger | opens his calendar on 2047 |
| 16:54 | <annevk> | e.g. if you have data:;trala:test |
| 16:54 | <annevk> | what happens? |
| 16:55 | <annevk> | sorry |
| 16:55 | <annevk> | data:;trala,test |
| 16:55 | <annevk> | per RFC that should fail |
| 16:55 | <annevk> | it does in no browser however |
| 16:57 | <annevk> | and what does "As a shorthand, "text/plain" can be omitted but the charset parameter supplied." mean? |
| 16:57 | <annevk> | is that even English? |
| 17:00 | <annevk> | whoa inbox 212 |
| 17:00 | <annevk> | and it's weekend |
| 17:18 | <annevk> | DOM is still under 50 pages |
| 17:19 | <annevk> | cannot get HTML print previewed |
| 17:19 | <Philip`> | annevk: I believe it is valid English, though I couldn't explain why |
| 17:19 | <annevk> | can you explain what it means? |
| 17:20 | <Philip`> | "As a shorthand, you can omit "text/plain" but supply the charset parameter" |
| 17:20 | <annevk> | e.g. if you specify data:;foo=bar,test what happens then? |
| 17:21 | <annevk> | <mediatype> is not exactly omitted then, but charset is not supplied either |
| 17:23 | <Philip`> | That doesn't sound like an instance of the specified shorthand, since it doesn't supply the charset parameter, so it's not allowed by that sentence |
| 17:23 | <annevk> | but it's allowed by the syntax |
| 17:25 | <Philip`> | In that case it sounds like it'd be good for the spec to be more precise about it |
| 17:35 | <zewt> | annevk: i wouldn't call that valid english, no |
| 17:37 | <asmodai> | annevk: It's English, but it assumes a lot/infers a lot implicitly. |
| 17:37 | <zewt> | it makes my native parser go "the charset parameter supplied what?" |
| 17:38 | <asmodai> | zewt: true, and calling it shorthand is just crude tbh |
| 17:38 | <asmodai> | If this is for a spec's text *shudder* |
| 17:44 | <annevk> | it's from http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2397 |
| 17:46 | <smaug____> | Ms2ger: what is http://w3c-test.org/webapps/DOMCore/tests/submissions/Ms2ger/Node-cloneNode.html about |
| 17:46 | <Ms2ger> | Cloning nodes? |
| 17:47 | <smaug____> | Ms2ger: but the document cloning |
| 17:48 | <Ms2ger> | That's what the spec... used to say? |
| 17:48 | <smaug____> | Ms2ger: really? |
| 17:48 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, why does http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-node-clone set node-document to null? |
| 17:49 | <smaug____> | IIRC support for document cloning was added to gecko because acid3 required it |
| 17:49 | <Ms2ger> | smaug____, I think we couldn't clone doctypes or something like that? |
| 17:49 | <Ms2ger> | Could you file a bug? |
| 17:50 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: I guess it should be set to itself |
| 17:50 | <Ms2ger> | I think so, yes |
| 17:50 | <annevk> | we probably changed it one place but not the other |
| 17:50 | <Ms2ger> | Anyway, I'm off for the weekend |
| 17:50 | <annevk> | so it should be set to /copy/ |
| 17:51 | <Ms2ger> | See y'all |
| 17:51 | <annevk> | i'll fix that |
| 17:51 | <annevk> | have fun |
| 17:51 | <Ms2ger> | Thanks |
| 17:55 | <AryehGregor> | . . . what do arguments beyond the first two do when passed to setTimeout? |
| 17:55 | <AryehGregor> | MDN and HTML both document the extra parameters, but don't say what they do. |
| 17:55 | <AryehGregor> | It's an extra param passed to the function? |
| 17:56 | <AryehGregor> | Seems so. |
| 17:56 | <gavin> | yeah |
| 17:57 | <AryehGregor> | But IE doesn't support it, so the cross-browser way is setTimeout(f.bind(null, param1, param2, ...), timeout). |
| 17:57 | <annevk> | AryehGregor: "calls the Function with as its arguments the third and subsequent arguments to the invoked method (if any)" |
| 17:57 | <annevk> | from HTML |
| 17:57 | <annevk> | it's not universally implemented afaik |
| 17:58 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, it doesn't mention the "args" argument by name. |
| 19:52 | <aklein> | annevk: style/consistency/markup changes to mutation observers look great |
| 19:53 | <aklein> | annevk: especially the dom intro box around the MutationRecord stuff |
| 19:54 | <annevk> | thanks |
| 19:54 | <annevk> | I'll look into your email later and make some further changes |
| 19:55 | <annevk> | what I meant btw was that at the end of "Mutation observation algorithms" there's "add a transient observer" |
| 19:55 | <annevk> | which does not really seem needed |
| 19:55 | <annevk> | it's only used once so you might as well define that in place |
| 19:56 | <annevk> | and it doesn't use the "transient observer" shortcut that was defined earlier |
| 19:56 | <annevk> | which I found a bit weird |
| 19:58 | <annevk> | anyway, back to Taxi Driver |
| 20:29 | <aklein> | annevk: ah, I see. yeah, I agree that's probably not needed (though depending on how we spec the remove all mutation, it may get one more reference) |
| 20:40 | <annevk> | k |
| 21:04 | <TabAtkins> | There's an IE bug tracking the setTimeout thing, triggered by a demo of mine. ^_^ |
| 21:05 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: You know, that sentence would have been more illuminating if there was something more substantial in place of the word "thing". A noun for example. |
| 21:07 | <_bga> | http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/383665_10150462880131136_395391936135_10704089_241975421_n.jpg |
| 21:07 | <TabAtkins> | Or you could, you know, look upward a few inches and see Aryeh talking about a setTimeout feature not being supported in IE. |
| 21:12 | <annevk> | aklein: how about instead of "dispatch" we name those "queue a TYPE record"? |
| 21:13 | <annevk> | aklein: because nothing is actually dispatched like events are |
| 21:14 | <annevk> | aklein: and just to be sure in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-mutation-dispatch-attributes you actually mean "run them for the next *registered* observer" right? |
| 21:14 | <annevk> | because observer is something else (somewhat unfortunate, but I cannot think of better terms either) |
| 21:26 | <smaug____> | yeah, I don't like using word dispatch with mutationobserver |
| 21:26 | <smaug____> | annevk: queue ... sounds better |
| 21:27 | <annevk> | problem with queue is that HTML uses it for tasks |
| 21:27 | <annevk> | but queue record is prolly good enough, and it's quite related to tasks after all |
| 22:03 | <aklein> | annevk: queue sounds great to me, this is another case of a method name leaking into the spec |
| 22:03 | <aklein> | annevk: and yeah, that was just a lack of precision, it's the next "registered observer" |
| 22:20 | <annevk> | made those changes |
| 22:20 | <annevk> | might make some more tomorrow including changes to the organization of the section |
| 22:21 | <annevk> | but starts to look pretty good I think; went quicker than expected thanks to all the effort you had put in already |
| 22:23 | <annevk> | eight months after http://annevankesteren.nl/2011/06/mutation |
| 22:23 | <annevk> | though the idea of replacing them has been around a little longer |
| 22:24 | <aklein> | we stumbled onto the idea due to nudging from ojan |
| 22:25 | <aklein> | ideally it would've gone faster, but given that it was my first significant addition to DOM-space I'm glad to see it at least in motion |
