| 00:00 | <Hixie> | typically they have them already, since their objects will typically be in arrays they're walking over |
| 00:00 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah. |
| 00:00 | <Hixie> | but in any case generating IDs is trivial |
| 00:00 | <TabAtkins> | Note that there is a use-case for wanting to get the set of all objects with a given point inside them. |
| 00:00 | <Hixie> | yeah that's a harder problem |
| 00:01 | <TabAtkins> | That one is generally going to be slow unless you have custom solutions. |
| 00:01 | <TabAtkins> | Like doing searches on a k-tree or something. |
| 00:01 | <Hixie> | the a11y use case and the normal click hit testing use case don't need it, so i'm not too worried about it |
| 00:01 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, can be added later. |
| 00:01 | <TabAtkins> | Without impacting the top-object use-case. |
| 00:05 | <Hixie> | if we add a way to addHitRegion() a path giving that region a label to read out when an AT brings the AT cursor to that part of the canvas |
| 00:05 | <Hixie> | should we just make fillText() and strokeText() always imply such a call? |
| 00:06 | <TabAtkins> | With a path equal to the bounding box of the text or something? |
| 00:06 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 00:06 | <Hixie> | or something |
| 00:06 | <TabAtkins> | Off the top of my head, I don't see why not. Seems nice. |
| 00:06 | <Hixie> | (not bounding box given fillText() along a path) |
| 00:06 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, sure. |
| 00:06 | <TabAtkins> | Suitably mutated was-a-rectangle-before-following-the-path. |
| 00:06 | <Hixie> | it wouldn't survive a drawImage() from one canvas to another, probably, which would be unfortunate |
| 00:07 | <TabAtkins> | *none* of the hit-testing would. |
| 00:07 | <Hixie> | right |
| 00:07 | <TabAtkins> | You need retained-mode if you want that. |
| 00:07 | <Hixie> | also would probably not survive drawing text onto a path then drawing the path |
| 00:07 | <TabAtkins> | Hm. That's not necessarily ture. |
| 00:07 | <TabAtkins> | UAs could retain the information alongside the path. |
| 00:08 | <Hixie> | and would be kinda annoying if you were to draw many layers of one piece of text, e.g. doing a motion blur effect |
| 00:08 | <TabAtkins> | True. |
| 00:08 | <Hixie> | actually that one is probably the most serious |
| 00:09 | <Hixie> | also it would make it annoying to use fillText() to draw pictograms and things from custom fonts |
| 00:09 | <Hixie> | hmm |
| 00:09 | <Hixie> | maybe best to leave it to explicit calls |
| 00:09 | <TabAtkins> | Hm. Yeah, might want something explicit. |
| 00:09 | <TabAtkins> | Though extending *Text to make it easier might be good too. |
| 00:09 | <TabAtkins> | Just not by default. |
| 00:10 | <Hixie> | add an optional ariaRole argument, maybe |
| 00:10 | <Hixie> | (what's the appropriate aria role for a graph label, anyone know?) |
| 00:10 | <TabAtkins> | Is there a good role for just 'text' or 'label' or something? |
| 00:10 | <TabAtkins> | Heh, lemme check. |
| 00:11 | <Hixie> | looks like there's neither |
| 00:11 | <Hixie> | <label> defaults to No Role |
| 00:11 | <Hixie> | that's unfortunate |
| 00:12 | <TabAtkins> | Yes, reading the list of them in /TR/wai-aria/roles, I see nothing appropriate. |
| 00:13 | <Hixie> | ok. i'm gonna go to tgif, and will pick up this canvas stuff again next week. |
| 00:14 | <TabAtkins> | Lemme know if anything cool happens - we're doing board games today. |
| 08:28 | <Onderhond> | Quick question: is it just me or was there some kind of proposition for a <template> element in html5? |
| 09:31 | <annevk> | Onderhond: there is |
| 09:35 | <annevk> | sigh Microsoft does not want to remove constants from Indexed DB? |
| 09:35 | <annevk> | consider it for v2? |
| 09:35 | <annevk> | euh |
| 09:42 | <annevk> | oh lol |
| 09:42 | <annevk> | drm, no drm, it's like https versus http |
| 09:43 | <annevk> | public-html turning into a comedy list does seem positive |
| 09:44 | <Ms2ger> | Better than a tragedy? |
| 09:45 | <annevk> | well, public-html is not good tragedy, so yes |
| 10:16 | <Onderhond> | annevk: where can I read up on the <template> element? Google isn't very helpful. |
| 10:17 | <Ms2ger> | XBL2 or Web Components. |
| 10:17 | <Ms2ger> | ? |
| 10:25 | <hsivonen> | I wonder why Gmail thinks emails from Mark Watson (@netflix.com) would be spam if I didn't have a filter telling Gmail never to mark them as spam |
| 11:00 | <Dashiva> | hsivonen: I think you can hover over some part of it to see why it was marked |
| 11:00 | <Dashiva> | Or maybe that's priority inbox |
| 11:39 | <annevk> | fyi https://plus.google.com/107429617152575897589/posts/NZBJe6Jjt1f |
| 12:07 | <annevk> | there's a <!-- XXX WTF? --> in DOM4 |
| 12:07 | <annevk> | about the traverse siblings algorithm it seems |
| 12:09 | <Velmont> | annevk: Bah. They did not :S -- Well, they can actually change the numeric constants and leave the constants as-is. I guess their developers don't rely on 1 and 2, but rather IDBTransaction.READ_WRITE etc. |
| 12:09 | <Ms2ger> | Hah |
| 12:09 | <Ms2ger> | I would not count on such a reasonable thing |
| 12:10 | <Velmont> | Ms2ger: Well, I don't think Microsoft would admit that they have such sloppy developers. |
| 12:10 | <annevk> | Velmont: but you know... you rewrote their tests |
| 12:11 | <Velmont> | annevk: Heh, -- they didn't use the numbers there, they used the constant names. |
| 12:11 | <annevk> | ah, at least they got something right :) |
| 12:12 | <Ms2ger> | Have you looked at the WebStorage tests? |
| 12:13 | <annevk> | "Interestingly enough, the IETF follows the snapshot model, deals with hundreds of highly critical standards and it works absolutely well." |
| 12:13 | <Velmont> | Not really, took a quick peek once. |
| 12:13 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 12:13 | <annevk> | HTTP - latest stable version, out of date, a mess |
| 12:13 | <annevk> | data URLs - a mess |
| 12:13 | <annevk> | URI/IRI - cannot be implemented as is |
| 12:14 | <annevk> | TLS - not updated with respect to what implementations actually need to do |
| 12:14 | <annevk> | HTTP authentication -- hahaha |
| 12:14 | <hsivonen> | I wonder how chuck@jumis manages to confuse server-side login with DRM and Trusted Computing for DRM and Trusted Computing against janitor attacks |
| 12:15 | <hsivonen> | did I get trolled? |
| 12:15 | <annevk> | MIME - maybe this one is too easy |
| 12:15 | <Ms2ger> | Man, I wish WebGL used testharness.js |
| 12:16 | <annevk> | hsivonen: I find his emails usually confusing |
| 12:42 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: Likewise. WebKit's test harness really doesn't work if you want actual regression tracking… |
| 12:43 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, is this all WebKit's fault? |
| 12:43 | <gsnedders> | Well, at least it looks exactly like WebKit's JS test framework, so I was assuming it was. |
| 12:46 | <gsnedders> | Also: I don't get how people don't bang heads against people claiming random crash bugs are security issues. |
| 12:49 | <gsnedders> | And, ah, how I've missed dealing with GWT output. |
| 12:55 | <Ms2ger> | So, what's the current thinking about http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/file-system/file-writer.html ? |
| 12:59 | <asmodai> | hsivonen: Happen to know if FF fires events for the discarding of large images on a tab switch? |
| 13:02 | <Ms2ger> | To the page? No |
| 13:02 | <asmodai> | is there any other way to detect it? |
| 13:02 | <Ms2ger> | Shouldn't be |
| 13:02 | <Ms2ger> | You could try a timing attack |
| 13:09 | <hsivonen> | asmodai: no idea |
| 13:10 | <hsivonen> | annevk: regarding indexed db, clearly, there's no v1, either, as evidenced by whar Isreal said |
| 13:12 | <annevk> | well yeah, there's no v |
| 13:12 | <hsivonen> | asmodai: what's the use case? |
| 13:13 | <asmodai> | hsivonen: Was asking based on a tweet of a buddy of mine, I think he's working on his framework debugger again |
| 13:13 | <asmodai> | hsivonen: Trying to get his ass in here so he can just ask himself XD |
| 13:14 | <annevk> | maybe it's time for a new "red pill" post |
| 13:14 | <annevk> | on standards |
| 13:15 | <hsivonen> | annevk: go for it |
| 13:20 | <hsivonen> | XML ER is not on xml-dev yet |
| 13:52 | <pflock> | Does anyone know why the lines here all have the same color though I gave them different strokeStyle's? http://jsfiddle.net/u4Gpf/ |
| 13:54 | <Philip`> | pflock: You need to call context.beginPath() before each new path |
| 13:54 | <pflock> | ah thanks ;) |
| 13:54 | <Philip`> | Otherwise you're drawing a path with 1 line, then extending the path to 2 lines and drawing all that again, etc |
| 13:55 | <pflock> | yes I noticed that he always colored them all in the last color I set, so that one overwrites the other colors, but I didn't know why |
| 13:55 | <pflock> | I thought context.stroke() already 'ends' the path |
| 14:04 | <annevk> | ok so far I've got |
| 14:04 | <annevk> | * living |
| 14:05 | <annevk> | * public domain |
| 14:05 | <annevk> | maybe developed in public is newish enough too |
| 14:06 | <Ms2ger> | * no telcons |
| 14:06 | <annevk> | ah yeah, asynchronous public decision making |
| 14:06 | <annevk> | nice one |
| 14:08 | <mhausenblas> | maybe add implementation-driven? |
| 14:09 | <Ms2ger> | Or in close cooperation with implementations, at least |
| 14:10 | <mhausenblas> | in this respect I'm rather radical, Ms2ger |
| 14:10 | <Ms2ger> | I'm not :) |
| 14:10 | <mhausenblas> | what's the point if it isn't implemented? |
| 14:10 | <mhausenblas> | why? |
| 14:10 | <Ms2ger> | Well, sure, it needs to be implemented |
| 14:10 | <mhausenblas> | implemented and implementable |
| 14:11 | <mhausenblas> | right |
| 14:11 | <mhausenblas> | I remember in horror the work in MPEG-7 |
| 14:11 | <Ms2ger> | But it sounded like you were saying it had to be implemented before starting on a spec |
| 14:11 | <mhausenblas> | I was young and I needed the job |
| 14:11 | <mhausenblas> | mhm, sorta |
| 14:11 | <mhausenblas> | like impl - spec -impl - spec |
| 14:11 | <mhausenblas> | ... |
| 14:12 | <mhausenblas> | of course you don't know the entire space so it must be iterative |
| 14:12 | <mhausenblas> | dunno who said it but something along the line of 'any complex system evolved from a very simple on' |
| 14:13 | <Ms2ger> | Mm |
| 14:13 | <mhausenblas> | so: KISS(at least) in the beginning and iterate |
| 14:13 | <mhausenblas> | s/simple on/simple one |
| 14:13 | <Ms2ger> | Agreed |
| 14:20 | <annevk> | I don't think implementor involvement is important to mention |
| 14:20 | <annevk> | if they're not involved |
| 14:20 | <annevk> | nothing happens |
| 14:22 | <annevk> | can anyone do a quick review? http://annevankesteren.nl/2012/02/standards-red-pill |
| 14:23 | <mhausenblas> | annevk I don't understand your logic |
| 14:24 | <mhausenblas> | in what you say it looks implementer involvment is an essential precondition, no? |
| 14:24 | <annevk> | what part? |
| 14:24 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 14:24 | <mhausenblas> | so how can it be *not* important to mention |
| 14:24 | <mhausenblas> | people often make the mistake to forget to externalise the most basic assumption |
| 14:25 | <annevk> | mkay |
| 14:25 | <mhausenblas> | because they seem to obvious |
| 14:25 | <mhausenblas> | right |
| 14:25 | <Philip`> | annevk: s/proof/prove/ |
| 14:25 | <mhausenblas> | annevk, lemme know when you're done - happy to (re)tweet/G+ it |
| 14:26 | <annevk> | thanks to Philip` and your addition I guess it's done now |
| 14:26 | <mhausenblas> | cool |
| 15:24 | <kennyluck> | Language — US English is the standard |
| 17:51 | <jonnybarnes> | hey, has anyone got a good refrence list of XML references? |
| 17:51 | <StoneCypher> | google does |
| 17:52 | <jonnybarnes> | Looking at an RSS feed I've made with PHP and seeing a lot of entities and trying to find out what character thats meant to be |
| 17:52 | <Ms2ger> | CR |
| 17:52 | <StoneCypher> | so use an entity decoder |
| 17:52 | <jonnybarnes> | Cheers Ms2ger |
| 17:52 | <StoneCypher> | or give a man a fish |
| 17:53 | <jonnybarnes> | StoneCypher: any recomendations for entoty decoders? |
| 17:53 | Ms2ger | slaps StoneCypher around a bit with a fish |
| 17:53 | <jonnybarnes> | *entity |
| 17:53 | <StoneCypher> | jonnybarnes: google does |
| 18:08 | <Philip`> | jonnybarnes: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/search.htm?q=%26%2313%3B&preview=entity should do it for numeric ones |
| 18:08 | <Philip`> | ( means decimal 13, which is hex 000D, so it's Unicode character U+000D) |
| 18:11 | <jonnybarnes> | cheers Philip` |
| 20:03 | <hsivonen> | cute how DRM proponents don't like my use of the word adversary even though I used it because the proposal used that word |
| 20:19 | <StoneCypher> | they're adversaries of adversary? |
| 20:42 | smaug____ | is glad he isn't following public-html |
| 20:42 | <smaug____> | Commenting "Encrypted Media proposal" would make me too angry |
| 20:42 | <Ms2ger> | I'm always glad I'm not following public-html |
| 21:35 | <Hixie> | wtf |
| 21:35 | <Hixie> | i have a sqlite table |
| 21:36 | <Hixie> | it has a column whose values are all TRUE |
| 21:36 | <Hixie> | i do a select on that table with a GROUP BY clause, and select the aforementioned column |
| 21:36 | <Hixie> | the result set has that column with the value NULL |
| 21:39 | <Velmont> | grrrrreat! Sure they're all TRUE? |
| 21:39 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 21:39 | <Hixie> | i've never set them, and i only just added the column with default true |
| 21:40 | <Velmont> | A+ stuff. I'd guess either a very strange behaviour or a good old bug. -- From what I've heard about SQLite it might actually be the first one... |
| 21:44 | <Hixie> | hm, i wonder what it's value actually is |
| 21:44 | <Hixie> | it returns TRUE |
| 21:44 | <Hixie> | but sqlite doesn't have a TRUE value... |
| 21:44 | <Hixie> | ok i replaced whatever values it had with 1 and now it works |
| 21:44 | Hixie | decides to move on in blissful ignorance |
| 23:50 | <gsnedders> | Object.defineProperty(String.prototype, "foo", {get: function(){"use strict"; print(typeof this);}}); "foo".foo; --- why is that object, and not string? 10.4.3 passes thisArg along directly, after 8.7.1 has invoked [[Call]] with the primitive value… |
| 23:50 | <gsnedders> | V8 claims string, SM/Carakan claim object. |
| 23:50 | <gsnedders> | I'm claiming SM/Carakan bug… |