| 01:43 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.google.com/patents/US8074083 and http://www.google.com/patents/US20090077379 are interesting |
| 04:48 | <Hixie> | http://labs.dinahmoe.com/plink/#whatwg is impressive |
| 05:07 | <mhausenblas> | he he, playing with MikeSmith plink - reminds me of Beverly Hills Cop, thanks Hixie :P |
| 05:07 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 05:07 | <MikeSmith> | fun stuff |
| 05:07 | <mhausenblas> | yey |
| 05:07 | <mhausenblas> | hard for me to play with track pad though |
| 05:07 | <mhausenblas> | tried Axel F but failed :D |
| 05:08 | <mhausenblas> | oh oh, now we're screwed :P |
| 05:13 | <MikeSmith> | man I could gonna get carpal tunnel playing this with trackpad on my laptop |
| 05:14 | <Hixie> | this is something that would really benefit from a touch screen interface |
| 05:14 | <mhausenblas> | indeed |
| 05:15 | <mhausenblas> | can one record the stuff? |
| 05:15 | <mhausenblas> | really awesome, btw |
| 05:15 | <Hixie> | you'd have to just use something that can record audio output, i think |
| 05:16 | <mhausenblas> | right |
| 05:16 | <mhausenblas> | but nothing built-in, I'd have overlooked, no? |
| 05:17 | <Hixie> | gotta go |
| 05:17 | <Hixie> | it was fun though |
| 05:17 | mhausenblas | grabbing some coffee - TTYL |
| 05:17 | <mhausenblas> | yep! |
| 06:25 | <mhausenblas> | anyone got a sorta complete list of HTML media types (need it for https://github.com/mhausenblas/Racoon)? |
| 06:25 | mhausenblas | knows that he supposed to use BeautifulSoup, yes, thank you - I have my reasons, for now :) |
| 06:26 | <mhausenblas> | MikeSmith maybe? |
| 06:27 | <mhausenblas> | hmmm http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/iana.html doesn't look too bad? |
| 06:30 | <MikeSmith> | mhausenblas: yeah, I guess that's what you need |
| 06:30 | <mhausenblas> | ta, MikeSmith |
| 06:55 | <asmodai> | So I see a new Opera mobile release with "improve tab session restore". I hope one of my issues was responsible for that. :D |
| 07:10 | <annevk> | can anyone take a look at the latest blog unapproved comment and approve/mark it as spam? |
| 07:10 | annevk | has a hard time deciding |
| 07:14 | <niloy_> | which blog, can I read? |
| 07:16 | <annevk> | the blgo is http://blog.whatwg.org/ |
| 07:16 | <annevk> | but you need admin access to read the comment |
| 07:23 | <hsivonen> | hmm. no WebGL for Symbian in Opera Mobile. Is this because of API unavailability on Symbian or because not investing in a burning platform fully anymore? |
| 07:24 | <hsivonen> | s//of/ |
| 07:26 | <niloy_> | maybe coz Symbian run on low end nokia mobiles |
| 07:28 | <hsivonen> | niloy_: the flagship before the current flagship ran Symbian |
| 07:28 | <hsivonen> | niloy_: unless you are making fun of Nokia and implying their high end is really low end |
| 07:29 | <niloy_> | I think the flagship before the current was Maemo/Meego :) |
| 07:29 | <hsivonen> | niloy_: they didn't treat N900 as their flagship. Not treating N900 as their flagship (and then N9) pretty much sums up what went wrong at Nokia. |
| 07:30 | <niloy_> | yes as a N900 owner, I completely agree with you |
| 07:31 | <hsivonen> | I sold away my Nokia 770 and N800 and moved to Android in the post-Elopocalyptic world |
| 07:32 | <niloy_> | hehe, but Android is nothing like N900, Android is too Google-centric |
| 07:34 | <niloy_> | hsivonen, you should try N9, reviews are pretty good |
| 07:34 | <hsivonen> | cool. Opera Mobile has made the splash screen high-res on Galaxy Nexus |
| 07:35 | <hsivonen> | niloy_: I tried it and concluded it would have been an awesome product if its software ecosystem had had a future. |
| 07:35 | <hsivonen> | niloy_: I want a phone that gets a MoCo-supported Firefox build |
| 07:36 | <hsivonen> | niloy_: so I bought a Galaxy Nexus instead of N9 |
| 07:36 | <niloy_> | ohkay |
| 07:40 | <hsivonen> | hmm. WebGL perf in Opera Mobile on Android is about as unimpressive as Fennec's perf. Maybe Opera does readbacks from the GPU, too? |
| 07:41 | <hsivonen> | btw, is this the first time Opera ships a given Presto release on mobile before desktop? |
| 07:45 | <zcorpan> | no |
| 07:46 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: ok. recently, it has seemed that Mobile was consistently a release behind desktop |
| 07:50 | <hsivonen> | in the DRM threads, dbaron's questions are unanswered as well as most of my questions... |
| 07:51 | <zcorpan> | iirc 2.2 shipped in mobile 9.7 before desktop 10. |
| 07:51 | <annevk> | zcorpan: in your grep, are you not missing matching for [1] or does \S* do that? |
| 07:51 | <zcorpan> | \S* does that |
| 07:51 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: was 9.7 only available to Windows Mobile bundling partners or something? |
| 07:51 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: dunno |
| 07:52 | <hsivonen> | I don't remember such a thing as 9.7 ever shipping on Symbian as a user-installable product |
| 07:52 | <hsivonen> | actually: did any 9.x release ship as user-installable on Symbian |
| 07:52 | <zcorpan> | maybe it was renamed to 10 after desktop had shipped |
| 07:52 | <hsivonen> | or did it go from 8.5 to 10? |
| 07:52 | zcorpan | doesn't know much about mobile releases |
| 07:53 | <hsivonen> | 8.5 was the latest Symbian release for a very, very long time after 9 had shipped on desktop |
| 07:54 | <hsivonen> | unfortunately, after all the waiting, it turned out that 10 required so much more RAM than 8.5 that it wasn't really usable for most stuff on my Symbian phone |
| 07:54 | <hsivonen> | so I ended up using it only for W3C archives and banking |
| 07:54 | <hsivonen> | by the time 10 shipped, I had migrated to Mini for all other browsing on Symbian |
| 09:20 | <woef> | Sorry bout this, but might've missed the previous answer. |
| 09:20 | <woef> | I remember reading about a <template> (or was it <component> tag) |
| 09:21 | <woef> | Can't find it on Google though. |
| 09:21 | <woef> | Can't seem to locate it on the whatwg page either. |
| 09:29 | <heycam> | woef, http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/explainer/index.html |
| 10:01 | <woef> | heycam: awesome! Thanks :) |
| 10:03 | <annevk> | leave my @opera.com address at hotel, get email at @gmail.com |
| 10:03 | <annevk> | I wonder what is going on there... |
| 10:34 | <zcorpan> | so i guess opera mobile is first to ship getUserMedia? |
| 10:42 | <zcorpan> | Native HTML5: http://www.openwebdevice.com/ |
| 11:17 | <bga> | http://careers.stackoverflow.com/jobs/17396/front-end-javascript-engineer-qmetric?a=kyirGaA |
| 12:40 | <kennyluck> | Can someone remind me what "treat as" means in CSS? Is it a used-value stage effect? |
| 14:16 | <bga> | http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/2971603_460s.jpg |
| 14:26 | <karlcow> | http://rng.io/ |
| 14:26 | <karlcow> | >Ringmark is a web-based test suite that measures how well a mobile browser supports the capabilities that modern mobile web apps require. |
| 14:29 | <hsivonen> | karlcow: it says Firefox fails "Data URL supported"... |
| 14:29 | <karlcow> | heh |
| 14:29 | <hsivonen> | karlcow: anyway, pretty cool that it counts prefixed features as failures |
| 14:30 | <karlcow> | it seems it comes from Facebook Team, if I understood correctly |
| 14:31 | <hsivonen> | karlcow: I take that back, it seems to pass -webkit prefixes but not -moz. boo |
| 14:31 | <hsivonen> | not really helpful to minify a test suite |
| 15:07 | <zcorpan> | document.msCSSOMElementFloatMetrics = true; eh? |
| 15:14 | <zcorpan> | should we change offsetLeft from long to float? |
| 15:15 | <zcorpan> | have MS done research that shows that it'd Break the Web or do they just want to adhere to the spec and only violate it after setting a proprietary property? |
| 15:41 | <smaug____> | hmm, do I dare to look at html-public archives today |
| 16:02 | <hsivonen> | smaug____: it's just me and zcorpan posting today. We aren't scary. |
| 16:04 | <smaug____> | hsivonen: yeah, looks like so. |
| 16:47 | <jgraham> | http://rng.io - someone should tell CSSWG that 3D transforms is now "base functionality" of the web platform (according to facebook) |
| 16:50 | <[tm]> | "Also note that however painful an API change may seem now, it will only get more painful the longer it is put off." |
| 16:51 | <[tm]> | indeed |
| 18:23 | <kennyluck> | What does RFE in "canvas RFE" stand for? |
| 18:24 | <Ms2ger> | Request for enhancement? |
| 18:27 | <kennyluck> | ah, that makes sense. |
| 20:22 | <jgraham> | Hmm, is querySelectorAll supposed to return a live collection? |
| 20:23 | <jgraham> | Oh no |
| 20:24 | <jgraham> | The selectors API overrides DOM Core |
| 20:24 | <jgraham> | This seems confusing and wrong |
| 20:25 | <jgraham> | I guess this is the web, suck on it, or something |
| 20:34 | <smaug____> | jgraham: it would be horrible if querySelectorAll would return live collection |
| 20:34 | <jgraham> | smaug____: Oh yeah, that doesn't sound very sane |
| 20:34 | <smaug____> | it would be slow |
| 20:35 | <jgraham> | smaug____: But neither is having the "same" interface that can be live or static depending on how it is used |
| 20:35 | <smaug____> | yeah, that is strange |
| 20:35 | <jwalden> | Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks! |
| 20:36 | <jgraham> | You woud have thought that I would have learnt after almost 8 years :) |
| 20:54 | <annevk> | what is wrong with using an interface two ways? |
| 20:54 | <annevk> | that is one of the things we fixed in the DOM |
| 20:54 | <annevk> | and it's not DOM Core, it's DOM or DOM4 |
| 21:08 | <jgraham> | annevk: It weakens the invariants you can assume from having an object of a specific type |
| 21:09 | <jgraham> | Also, there are so many more interesting things to worry about than what specs are called this week :) |
| 21:11 | <annevk> | but do you? :p |
| 22:35 | <Hixie> | so if we add hit regions to canvas |
| 22:35 | <Hixie> | and make it possibel to annotate such regions with aria roles |
| 22:35 | <Hixie> | it would make sense to make it possible for such hit regions to be hierarchical somehow |
| 22:35 | <Hixie> | since ATs use the tree for various purposes |
| 22:35 | <Hixie> | e.g. if you have a game menu that contained menu items |
| 22:36 | <Hixie> | you'd want the outer box to be a menu region, and the items to be menuitem regions as children of the menu region |
| 22:36 | <Hixie> | we can kind of do that automatically by seeing what role the pixels have that you're drawing to when you draw the menuitem region |
| 22:37 | <Hixie> | but what if you draw something unrelated over the top of it, like a popup window of some kind? |
| 22:37 | <Hixie> | just because it overlaps the menu doesn't mean it should be part of it... |
| 22:37 | <Hixie> | hmm |
| 22:38 | <karlcow> | ----- |
| 22:38 | <karlcow> | ><meta name="pinterest" content="nopin" /> |
| 22:38 | <karlcow> | >What if I don't want images from my site to be pinned? |
| 22:38 | <karlcow> | >We have a small piece of code you can add to the head of any page on your site: |
| 22:38 | <karlcow> | — http://pinterest.com/about/help/ |
| 22:39 | <Hixie> | i guess i could get have the user give the ID of the parent region... |
| 22:40 | <Hixie> | s/user/author/ |
| 22:40 | <Hixie> | but then what if that parent region is long gone... |
| 22:40 | <Hixie> | hmm |
| 22:41 | <karlcow> | ----- |
| 22:41 | <karlcow> | >The Yahoo-owned photo-sharing site has just added Pinterest’s newly introduced do-not-pin code to Flickr pages with copyrighted or protected images. |
| 22:41 | <karlcow> | — http://venturebeat.com/2012/02/24/flickr-pinterest-pin/ |
| 22:43 | <annevk> | Hixie: is that the way AT APIs for the OS work? |
| 22:43 | <annevk> | Hixie: with some kind of tree backing? |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | i guess i dunno |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | i presume so |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | pretty much every UI framework in existence uses a tree at some level |
| 22:44 | <annevk> | Hixie: it seems so immensely complicated for day-to-day developers |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | e.g. a window contains its widgets |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | a listbox contains its scrollbar |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | etc |
| 22:45 | <annevk> | Hixie: e.g. I reckon if you explain this to Bruce Lawson or Jeremy Keith they might look a bit perplexed, but who knows |
| 22:46 | <annevk> | it's also very far from the goal of just having accessibility by default, but I guess we won't really get that high-level for the foreseeable future |
| 22:49 | <Hixie> | well the hit region thing i'm thinking of (see friday's discussion) is meant to really be used for people doing hit testing for mice users |
| 22:49 | <Hixie> | and we just hook aria roles into it |
| 22:49 | <Hixie> | and text labels for haptic feedback ATs |
| 22:51 | <Hixie> | ok so voiceover definitely has a tree |
| 22:51 | <Hixie> | go into system preferences, turn VO on |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | then VO+up/down cycles through the title bar, the toolbar, and the main content area |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | and while you have the main content area or toolbar selected, you can press shift+VO+down to drill down to the widgets in those areas |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | at which point VO+arrow only stays within that area |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | and Shift+VO+Up goes out to the outer level again |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | not that that UI would make sense in canvas |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | you'd use HTML for that |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | but still |
| 22:54 | <Hixie> | one could imagine a similar scenario in canvas where you had say a RTS game with a bunch of buttons at the bottom and a play area at the top |
| 22:54 | <Hixie> | in which you had the same hierarchy |
| 22:55 | <Hixie> | maybe you give the parent by ID and a region survives until both it is obliterated _and_ all its children are obliterated |
| 22:55 | <Hixie> | (obliterated = drawn over by another region or clearRect()ed over) |
| 22:56 | <annevk> | oh Hixie btw |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | and if you set a region as having a parent that has already been obliterated, hmm... |
| 22:56 | <annevk> | Hixie: do you need a bug for integrating mutation observers in HTML? |
| 22:56 | <annevk> | Hixie: now Chrome is shipping something in alphas and Gecko is about to have it implemented, it would be nice to have the last missing piece written down |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | if you want me to do something to the spec, i need a bug or email, yeah |
| 22:56 | <annevk> | there's an email on www-dom |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | if it's urgent let me know and i'll get to it |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | k |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | subject line? |
| 22:57 | <Hixie> | looks like i already deleted it, i have no pending mail for that list |
| 22:57 | <annevk> | the thread "[dom] mutation observers and HTML" |
| 22:57 | <annevk> | in particular http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2012JanMar/0066.html |
| 22:57 | <annevk> | but I think HTML should define the whole thing, the task and when the callback is invoked |
| 22:58 | <annevk> | because we don't want to depend on HTML |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | k |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | can you file a bug on that with what you think needs to be said? |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | i'm happy to add it |
| 22:58 | <annevk> | I wish I knew the exact details; guess I can take another look at figuring it out |
| 22:58 | <annevk> | oh, aklein is around |
| 22:59 | <annevk> | aklein: yt? |
| 22:59 | <aklein> | annevk: indeed! |
| 23:01 | <annevk> | aklein: I'm trying to find some email that explains the microtask thing in detail |
| 23:01 | <annevk> | aklein: so I can file a bug on HTML that details what it needs to say |
| 23:01 | <annevk> | aklein: alternatively, you could file that bug |
| 23:01 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 23:01 | <aklein> | annevk: it seems like it's reasonable to delegate that to me |
| 23:01 | <Hixie> | ok i can't add an optional parent id argument to this addHitRegion function |
| 23:02 | <annevk> | aklein: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=HTML%20WG&component=HTML5%20spec%20(editor:%20Ian%20Hickson) |
| 23:02 | <Hixie> | it would increase the number of possible overloads for this function to 18 |
| 23:02 | <Hixie> | and y'all would shoot me |
| 23:02 | <annevk> | aklein: much appreciated |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | maybe it's time to use a dictionary for the arguments to this function |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | then y'all would think i was hip rather than crazy |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | ok, yeah, this is much better |
| 23:07 | <aklein> | annevk: above you said you "don't want to depend on HTML" |
| 23:07 | <aklein> | annevk: does that mean DOM4 isn't supposed to reference HTML for this? instead HTML would reference DOM4? |
| 23:07 | <annevk> | aklein: yeah, HTML already depends on DOM |
| 23:08 | <annevk> | aklein: so HTML would detail how to make use of the record queue and the callback |
| 23:08 | <Hixie> | i just need to know what the semantics should be, btw, i can work out what that means in terms of spec edits |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | no need to tell me which algorithms to change, etc |
| 23:11 | <annevk> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011JulSep/1622.html |
| 23:12 | <annevk> | "listeners are called at the end of outermost script invocation. If there are no script invocations, listeners are called at the end of Task." |
| 23:12 | <annevk> | is that clear enough? |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | i think so |
| 23:13 | <annevk> | aklein: should DOM maybe not have a list of MutationObserver objects somewhere? |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | assuming "outermost script invocation" means "when the entry script is set to null in the 'jump to a code entry-point' algorithm" |
| 23:13 | <annevk> | aklein: to determine callback order? |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | ok here's what i'm thinking for addHitRegion() - multiline paste ahead, sorry: |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | addHitRegion({ path: path, // Path to use as region description, defaults to the context's default path element: element, // Element to send events to; limited at hit-test time to specific interactive elements label: label, // DOMString to use as a label when the user strokes a touch display or focuses the hit region with an AT |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | id: id, // DOMStrig to use as the ID in events fired on the canvas for tahis region (MouseEvent gets new attribute for this purpose) ariaRole: ariaRole, // DOMString limited to specific roles, AT uses this to decide how to expose the region parentID: parentID, // unsigned long or DOMString, AT uses this to decide which region to use as this region's parent (defaults to canvas as parent) // all arguments optional // no-op if none of element, label, id, or ariaRole |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | // only one of element and id may be present; either id is ignored if element is present, or an exception is raised if both are present // ariaRole must be present if parentID is present // if parentID refers to a region that no longer exists, exception? no-op? ignore parentID? |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | }); |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | yikes that failed |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | let me put it up somewhere |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Canvas#Proposals |
| 23:16 | <annevk> | I'm not familiar enough with entry script to say |
| 23:24 | <annevk> | from reading about entry script it sounds like yes |
| 23:27 | <annevk> | Hixie: I don't see the spec it ever setting to null though |
| 23:29 | <jamesr__> | Hixie: why doesn't ariaRole sit on the element? |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | annevk: s/null/no value/ |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | jamesr__: it's for the case of there not being an element |
| 23:30 | <annevk> | so yeah |
| 23:30 | <annevk> | it's only no value just in the beginning it seems |
| 23:31 | <annevk> | "Initially, there is no entry script. It is changed by the jump to a code entry-point algorithm." |
| 23:31 | <aklein> | annevk: ah, yes, I think it should (poking at our impl now...) |
| 23:34 | <aklein> | annevk: turns out we don't do that right now in WebKit...but it was definitely the intention |
| 23:34 | <annevk> | aklein: maybe file a bug on that too |
| 23:34 | <annevk> | on the spec that is |
| 23:34 | <annevk> | i'm about to get some sleep |
| 23:34 | <annevk> | and tomorrow it'll be a mix of skiing and doing not much at all |
| 23:34 | <aklein> | annevk: yeah, will file one on the spec and one on us, thanks for pointing it out |
| 23:35 | <aklein> | (it was discussed in email, just dropped the ball on implementation) |
| 23:44 | <aklein> | Hixie: did you still want a bug? or was annevk's quote from smaug____ sufficient? |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | bug please |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | it's not so much to tell me what to do so much as to make sure i have it on my todo list |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | (or e-mail ian⊙hc) |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | (whatever is easier) |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | (the bugs just generate bugmail which then ends up in my imap folder) |
| 23:47 | <annevk> | but the bugs can be tracked by everyone else |
| 23:47 | <annevk> | so they're nicer |
| 23:52 | <aklein> | filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16142 |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 23:59 | <smaug____> | aklein: since you're here. what is the process in chromium; who decides what features go in? |
