| 00:01 | <zewt> | Philip`: asking for commentary on WebGL isn't quite the same as asking for it on typed arrays, either |
| 01:49 | <miketaylr> | abarth: do you know if anyone has tried to contact winktoolkit people? |
| 01:49 | <miketaylr> | i've worked with them in the past on some compat stuff |
| 01:49 | <abarth> | miketaylr: nope, i just saw the bug report today |
| 01:50 | <miketaylr> | k, i'll email the guy and at least point him to the discussion |
| 03:40 | <smaug____> | volkmar: ping |
| 03:41 | <smaug____> | volkmar: could you ask someone managing moznet to allow more connections from the hotel |
| 03:44 | <smaug____> | or gavin or ehsan |
| 03:44 | <ehsan> | I don't have control over moznet |
| 03:45 | <smaug____> | ehsan: could you perhaps ping someone |
| 03:45 | <ehsan> | smaug____: I only know gavin |
| 03:45 | <ehsan> | don't know anybody else with the privs :/ |
| 03:46 | smaug____ | files a bug to fix the situation |
| 03:46 | <ehsan> | smaug____: fwiw, I can't get on moznet myself :( |
| 03:46 | <smaug____> | oh |
| 03:48 | <volkmar> | I will ask on #developers |
| 03:49 | <gavin> | I can't do that myself |
| 03:49 | <gavin> | file a server ops bug |
| 03:51 | <smaug____> | volkmar: ehsan bug 739516 |
| 03:51 | <ehsan> | smaug____: thanks |
| 03:53 | volkmar | is so glad to use his server to connect to IRC :) |
| 04:15 | <zcorpan> | annevk: don't you mean s/non-streaming/streaming/ ? |
| 04:15 | <zcorpan> | oh wait |
| 04:18 | <zcorpan> | annevk: didn't we agree on having the non-streaming api on string/arraybuffer? |
| 04:53 | <zewt> | zcorpan: no reason to do that |
| 04:53 | <zewt> | i mean, there's no benefit to having separate streaming and non-streaming apis |
| 04:54 | <zewt> | turning new TextEncoding('foo').encode(s) into s.encode('foo') is really not much of a win for having more API |
| 04:55 | <zewt> | s/Encoding/Encoder/ |
| 04:55 | <zewt> | bed |
| 05:21 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16524 is about recent canvas stuff |
| 05:27 | <Sirisian> | He might not be awake |
| 05:28 | <Sirisian> | If Hixie is then I forgot to ask him about this: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11517 |
| 05:56 | <zcorpan> | so apparently there's no spec anywhere saying how percentage heights work inside tables |
| 05:56 | <zcorpan> | yay! |
| 08:12 | <MikeSmith> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-iri/2012Mar/0070.html |
| 08:12 | <MikeSmith> | [[ |
| 08:12 | <MikeSmith> | RFC format: There is ongoing developing some tooling and workflow which will allow us |
| 08:12 | <MikeSmith> | to generate versions of our internet drafts and RFCs which have HTML and |
| 08:12 | <MikeSmith> | PDF alternatives. |
| 08:12 | <MikeSmith> | ]] |
| 08:13 | <MikeSmith> | to generate HTML versions |
| 08:14 | <MikeSmith> | I wonder how that's different from the generated HTML that tools.ietf.org already has |
| 08:15 | <MikeSmith> | and I wonder in which decade it might actually happen that the sources are maintained in HTML and the plain-text generated from that |
| 08:15 | <MikeSmith> | readability WTF |
| 08:16 | <annevk> | still no update on whether Unicode is okay huh? |
| 08:16 | <annevk> | IETF is hilarious |
| 08:16 | <MikeSmith> | there's still a few years left in this decade |
| 08:16 | <MikeSmith> | this is like the meeting of the Ents man |
| 08:17 | <MikeSmith> | I don't mean this particular message |
| 08:18 | <MikeSmith> | large irony here about multiple nit-picking editorial bugs filed against HTML spec and other W3C specs about "readability" issues |
| 08:20 | <MikeSmith> | as Jesus said, "wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye, and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye" |
| 08:47 | <Velmont> | Hmmm. Having all the other tests reside inside one test that only does setup seems to be a quite nice way to do tests. |
| 08:48 | <Velmont> | Looking at http://w3c-test.org/webapps/WebStorage/tests/submissions/Infraware/storage_local_key.html -- seems a nice way to do it. |
| 08:53 | <MikeSmith> | http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-montenegro-httpbis-speed-mobility-00 |
| 08:54 | <MikeSmith> | see the parts where is says "Same SPDY" and the parts where is doesn't |
| 08:54 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., "It would maintain the integrity of the layered architecture." |
| 08:55 | <MikeSmith> | implication being that SPDY does not "maintain the integrity of the layered architecture" |
| 08:57 | <MikeSmith> | also, see the one about "Protect our precious bodily fluids." |
| 08:58 | <annevk> | layered architecture sounds painful |
| 08:59 | <MikeSmith> | wow, it took 6 people to write this draft |
| 08:59 | <hsivonen> | just what everyone needed: SDPY getting the Web Socket treament at the IETF |
| 09:00 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: to write an introduction to the topic you mean |
| 09:00 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: section 2 is non-existent, and 3 and 4 are boilerplate :) |
| 09:01 | <annevk> | nice tweet hsivonen |
| 09:01 | <MikeSmith> | it's not a spec... it's not a requirements document... it's... |
| 09:02 | <MikeSmith> | mini-manifesto? |
| 09:03 | <MikeSmith> | is this mostly intended as implicit criticism of SPDY or what? |
| 09:03 | <zcorpan> | Velmont: i think you're supposed to use setup(func) and ideally let the script produce the same amount of tests even if the setup fails |
| 09:04 | <Velmont> | zcorpan: Yes, that's what I've been doing a few times before. But it's not always easy to make small unit tests fail like that. |
| 09:04 | <Velmont> | zcorpan: Quite often the error condition is also "timed out" which is quite slow. |
| 09:05 | <hsivonen> | any word from Apple or Opera about SPDY? |
| 09:06 | <zcorpan> | Velmont: i don't see how a wrapper test helps with timed out :-) |
| 09:07 | <Velmont> | zcorpan: Well, -- the first test will most probably fail, -- but the rest 20 tests will then never actually get created, -- so it will help not having all of those time out. |
| 09:07 | <annevk> | hsivonen: it's on our roadmap, though I suspect we might delay implementing if the IETF gets a go at it because we'd just lose a lot of time |
| 09:07 | <hsivonen> | gotta love it when a user with Firefox issues has 15 add-ons |
| 09:07 | <Velmont> | zcorpan: Well, -- not really a big problemo, -- but I'm always looking at different ways of writing the tests. |
| 09:07 | <hsivonen> | I guess I'm going to install those add-ons in a VM... |
| 09:08 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., does "Any HTTP 2.0 proposal should leverage the reliable transport and not attempt to replicate functions generally accepted as addressed by other layers." there because they see SPDY as replicating functions of other layers? |
| 09:08 | <hsivonen> | annevk: yay IETF for delays |
| 09:08 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: could have something to do with SPDY blending the TLS and HTTP layers |
| 09:08 | <annevk> | i was like "hurray" when I saw the HTTP 2.0 stuff come by |
| 09:08 | <zcorpan> | Velmont: not creating the other tests probably confuses spartan. i'm not sure but i think the framework doesn't wait for tests to time out if the setup fails |
| 09:09 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: OK |
| 09:09 | <annevk> | then made a little dance for being only tangentially involved in network standards |
| 09:10 | <hsivonen> | also, part of why SPDY works so well is that the TCP is a leaky abstraction, so multiplexing in SPDY is more efficient that letting IP multiplex multiple TCP connections |
| 09:10 | <MikeSmith> | I see |
| 09:11 | <hsivonen> | but AFAICT, SPDY does use TCP for "reliable transport" |
| 09:34 | <zcorpan> | iirc timj said he had tried to argue in Kronos that exposing endianness differences wouldn't work on the Web, but he was alone in the group to think so |
| 09:36 | <annevk> | :( |
| 09:37 | <annevk> | I have the impression he's often the sole sane voice there |
| 09:37 | <annevk> | I wonder how many years of experience the other people in that group have with browsers |
| 09:47 | <Velmont> | Ms2ger: Hey, -- for testharness.js; I'm translating old NETWORK_ERR etc from the testcases to NetworkError. And then check if the implementation threw a newstyle DOMException (by checking if it has a type), if so: check that type == NetworkError, and code = 27. -- If old-style, only check for the code. |
| 09:48 | <Velmont> | Ms2ger: Is the approach fine? https://github.com/jgraham/testharness.js/pull/1 |
| 09:48 | <Velmont> | hrmf |
| 10:00 | <hsivonen> | aargh. what's the deal with bank sites having bad HTML |
| 10:00 | <hsivonen> | 86 blank lines before the doctype. looking good. |
| 10:01 | <hsivonen> | very long meta keywords. check |
| 10:01 | <hsivonen> | coverage: global |
| 10:01 | <hsivonen> | money well allocated to SEO instead of reasonable HTML |
| 10:02 | <hsivonen> | ancient Netscape 4.x window resize fix |
| 10:02 | <hsivonen> | an empty script |
| 10:12 | <hsivonen> | cool. Hixie has actually explained what I need to do to fix this bank: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-February/034869.html |
| 11:02 | <annevk> | two more decoders to go |
| 11:03 | <annevk> | actually, make that 3 |
| 11:03 | <annevk> | big5, big5-hkscs, and gbk |
| 11:06 | zcorpan | wonders if it's reasonable to not support the unitless length quirk in calc() |
| 11:08 | <zcorpan> | seems mozilla already does that |
| 11:09 | <zcorpan> | webkit also |
| 11:13 | <zcorpan> | which makes sense, since calc can use numbers e.g. 2 * 5px |
| 11:28 | <zcorpan> | fixed |
| 11:46 | MikeSmith | wonders what encoding the #entmoot channel uses |
| 11:46 | <zcorpan> | hmm, my fix was wrong |
| 11:51 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: I thought Entish was a non-written language (since if it was written then it could be read too hastily, and also trees don't have hands), so it's probably something like a very-low-frequency Vorbis encoding |
| 11:51 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 11:51 | <MikeSmith> | that explains the humming |
| 11:54 | <Philip`> | Oh, Wikipedia says I'm wrong - they adopted Quenya later, so presumably it'd be written in standard tengwar |
| 11:59 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: so there is yet hope |
| 12:04 | <MikeSmith> | can somebody look at http://platform.html5.org/ in Chrome for me and tell me if rendering of the list in the Legend section is borked? |
| 12:16 | <Ms2ger> | MikeSmith, looks good, but the green flag seems a little wider than the rest |
| 12:18 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: thanks |
| 12:34 | <annevk> | I think I can probably describe all encodings using this index concept |
| 12:34 | <annevk> | except perhaps for gb18030 as it is silly |
| 12:51 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: kindly please change the date on the diffs doc to March 29 |
| 12:56 | <annevk> | so things are going done before the end of the month? |
| 12:56 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 12:57 | <annevk> | how about we change html5-diff after the rest is done? |
| 12:57 | <annevk> | ah nm |
| 12:57 | <annevk> | i'll just do it now |
| 12:58 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: done |
| 12:58 | <MikeSmith> | arigatou |
| 13:08 | <annevk> | IANA is so crappy |
| 13:08 | <annevk> | http://www.iana.org/assignments/charset-reg/Big5-HKSCS has dead links |
| 13:09 | <annevk> | oh yeah, I should blame the group for maintaining that I guess, not "IANA" |
| 13:09 | <annevk> | otherwise someone might have a fit over the difference |
| 13:28 | <annevk> | hmm forgot hkscs is layered on top of big5 |
| 13:28 | <annevk> | so big5-related stuff is pretty much a mess |
| 13:34 | <hsivonen> | time flies. the xtranormal Web Socket video is from December 2010 |
| 13:36 | <annevk> | test |
| 13:37 | <annevk> | hmm so my connection is flaky, but not that flaky |
| 13:42 | <Ms2ger> | Velmont, your patch is on my todo list... I'll try to get to it tonight |
| 13:42 | <Ms2ger> | Sorry for the dealy |
| 13:42 | <Velmont> | :-) |
| 13:42 | <Ms2ger> | delay, even |
| 13:47 | <remysharp> | should I be using a <progress> element to indicate file upload, even though I know the total size before the file is sent (this is the bit that's confusing me in the spec)? |
| 13:52 | <annevk> | remysharp: yes |
| 13:52 | <annevk> | remysharp: that would be a determinate progress |
| 13:53 | <remysharp> | annevk: would it be fair to say that meter could go up and down, whereas progress can only go up? |
| 13:53 | <remysharp> | so I could (as the spec suggests) use meter to track disk space available |
| 13:55 | <annevk> | disk measurement is not some task that the user waits for |
| 13:55 | <annevk> | progress is related to some kind of activity, meter is just measuring things |
| 13:56 | <remysharp> | so, that's kind of a yes to my up/down analogy :) -- just makes it a little easier for me to remember |
| 13:56 | <remysharp> | I think I just saw an example of meter being used to measure activity in a google group |
| 13:56 | <remysharp> | which sounds right by my understanding now |
| 13:58 | <annevk> | yeah, I might temporal activity |
| 13:58 | <annevk> | meant damnit |
| 13:59 | <remysharp> | I liked my up/down thing - temporal reminds me of x-files for some reason :) (as requested, sense left at the door) |
| 13:59 | <annevk> | yeah dunno if up/down works in all cases, but it might |
| 14:00 | <remysharp> | I quietly suspect you're right |
| 14:03 | <annevk> | yay Orange |
| 14:03 | <annevk> | (WHATWG list has context) |
| 14:49 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 14:50 | <annevk> | both Opera and Chrome use surrogates for big5-hkscs |
| 14:50 | <annevk> | Gecko does not |
| 15:29 | <annevk> | you'd think that iterating over 20000 code points is not that hard |
| 15:29 | <annevk> | I guess it's not in benchmarks and that's why everything is slow |
| 15:34 | <annevk> | in IE they do indeed appear identical mappings |
| 15:35 | <annevk> | I guess the next step is some intersection research |
| 15:37 | <gsnedders> | annevk: Iterating over 20k codepoints is fairly quick. Doing stuff with them isn't. |
| 15:39 | <annevk> | good point |
| 16:17 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 17:57 | <hsivonen> | is there a reference for Hixie's pre-IETF Web Sockets not having the problem with transparent proxies? |
| 18:05 | <Hixie> | what's "the problem with transparent proxies"? |
| 18:05 | <Hixie> | (there could be several) |
| 18:11 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: the proxy cache poisoning thing |
| 18:11 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: the one that was the big security thing at the IETF |
| 18:11 | <Hixie> | i'm not aware of a cache poisoning issue |
| 18:12 | <Hixie> | the thing that was a "big security thing at the IETF" as far as i can tell was a different thing for each person who thought there was a thing |
| 18:12 | <Hixie> | so that doesn't narrow it down for me :-) |
| 18:13 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg04744.html |
| 18:14 | <Hixie> | oh that's not necessarily cache poisoning. That's just the cross-protocol attack. |
| 18:14 | <Hixie> | my version of the protocol wasn't vulnerable to that because my protocol required sending what looked like two requests, the first one well-formed, and the second one noise |
| 18:15 | <Hixie> | and only if the two requests were treated as a single request by the proxy, and sent to the server together, and then the entire response sent back together as well, would the client send any more bytes |
| 18:17 | <Hixie> | (i never really understood why people were so suddenly concerned by that attack; by the time adam put out that paper, the issue had long been resolved in the spec) |
| 18:30 | <hsivonen> | oh. Chrome has migrated about:foo to chrome://foo vanity URLs |
| 18:30 | <hsivonen> | like Opera |
| 18:30 | <hsivonen> | except chrome: means something totally different in Gecko-based browsers |
| 18:43 | <jwalden> | that's probably better, actually; about:* has weird security properties, would be better if the privileged stuff that lived under there in Gecko were instead under a completely different protocol that were flat-out off-limits |
| 18:44 | <jwalden> | whether about:* could ever be made only the safe stuff in Gecko, tho, dunno |
| 19:43 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: is 'image-rendering' gone? |
| 19:44 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: (re https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12044#c2) |
| 19:53 | <annevk> | hsivonen: Hixie: I think the reason people were concerned is because nobody shipped or implemented the latest version of Hixie's spec, which was published just before the fork happened |
| 20:05 | <Hixie> | at least safari did |
| 20:05 | <Hixie> | but seems like implementing what i wrote would have been better than disabling it ;-) |
| 20:05 | <Hixie> | anyway that's history |
| 20:05 | <Hixie> | lunch! |
| 20:09 | <annevk> | no disagreement there |
| 20:14 | <karlcow> | http://inkdroid.org/journal/2012/03/27/cc0-and-git-for-data/ |
| 20:18 | <hober> | Any comments on or suggestions for http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-200 before I send it in? |
| 20:24 | <annevk> | if we are going to revisit where <legend> can be used, we should use it for <details> and <figure> again... |
| 20:25 | <annevk> | "In fact, the author conformance restriction on <legend> *helps* authors to avoid butting heads with <fieldset>'s (unchangeable) weirdness." I think we can still make this better by describing the <fieldset> behavior in terms of some new CSS concept |
| 20:25 | <annevk> | but it looks more like UI design these days has no need for <fieldset> |
| 20:29 | <hober> | I'll add a note suggesting that those interested could propose 'some new CSS concept' to www-style; thanks |
| 20:35 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Punted to level 4. |
| 20:39 | <TabAtkins> | Are we generally against the init*Event functions? |
| 20:40 | <smaug____> | TabAtkins: yes |
| 20:40 | <smaug____> | in general |
| 20:40 | <smaug____> | not sure if there are some special cases |
| 20:40 | <smaug____> | (I think there aren't) |
| 20:41 | <TabAtkins> | What's the replacement? |
| 20:42 | <kennyluck> | constructors? |
| 20:42 | <TabAtkins> | That's what I thought. |
| 21:21 | <jgraham> | Yeah init*Event shouldn't be used in new features |
| 21:22 | <TabAtkins> | kk. The question came up regarding initTransitionEvent |
| 21:30 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: In unrelated news you now have me wondering about the biochemistry of the female reproductive system |
| 21:30 | <TabAtkins> | ... |
| 21:30 | <TabAtkins> | How? |
| 21:30 | <jgraham> | http://twitter.com/#!/tabatkins/status/184523386486128641 |
| 21:31 | <TabAtkins> | Ah, yes. |
| 21:31 | <TabAtkins> | The female reproductive system is slightly acidic. |
| 21:31 | <jgraham> | Ah |
| 21:31 | <TabAtkins> | Thus at least part of the taste. |
| 21:31 | <jgraham> | Oh, that's quite famous isn't it |
| 21:31 | <jgraham> | The acidity, not the taste |
| 21:31 | <jgraham> | Although probably that too |
| 21:32 | <TabAtkins> | I dunno if acid snatches are famous. |
| 21:34 | <jgraham> | I was under the vauge impression -- and this is very much not my specialist area -- that people who tried to closely monitor their reproductive cycle for one reason or the other took pH into account |
| 21:35 | <TabAtkins> | Oh, right. Yes. |
| 21:35 | <TabAtkins> | That does vary across the cycle. |
| 21:50 | <jgraham> | Help, I have been on the internet too long. I see http://browserquest.mozilla.org/ and think of http://mozillaquest.com/ |
| 21:51 | <jgraham> | (I assume one isn't supposed to think of that?!) |
| 22:08 | <Hixie> | http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle_captions#Details |
| 22:08 | <Hixie> | really? |
| 22:08 | <Hixie> | we're actually going to put an example in the spec _encouraging_ nested figures? |
| 22:15 | <nesta_> | Hixie hi? |
| 22:15 | <nesta_> | http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle_captions#Details |
| 22:16 | <nesta_> | cool! :) |
| 22:16 | <nesta_> | thnx! |
| 22:43 | <zewt> | ugh, File API added "oneTimeOnly" when nobody has actually defined that in any even vaguely meaningful way? |
| 22:43 | <zewt> | very poor |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | woot, i finished canvas v5 |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | tomorrow i'll try to write replies to all the relevant e-mails and bugs |
| 23:25 | <TabAtkins> | Btw, thank you for the clearClip()! |
| 23:26 | <Hixie> | resetClip()? |
| 23:26 | <Hixie> | it was on the list of requests :-) |
| 23:26 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah. |
| 23:26 | <Hixie> | i added pretty much everything people asked for more than once and which didn't rely on infrastructre that didn't exist already |
| 23:27 | <Hixie> | (along with some infrastructure for the latter) |
| 23:27 | <Hixie> | (so that we can add them next time) |
| 23:27 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: i'm gone the rest of the week as far as lunches go, and haven't been able to catch hober, but i'm free all next week so if you manage to catch him and convince him to come for lunch feel free to calendar me |
| 23:28 | <Hixie> | bbl |
| 23:29 | <TabAtkins> | kk |