| 00:00 | <Hixie> | so for legacy purposes you could do method=dialog action="that" |
| 00:10 | <Hixie> | okie dokie |
| 00:10 | <Hixie> | <dialog> is now done! i think. |
| 00:10 | <Hixie> | (also inert="", though only in the whatwg copy) |
| 00:11 | <Hixie> | (not sure if i should limit method=dialog to the whatwg copy also... anyone? i guess it wasn't mentioned in your CP, right hober?) |
| 00:12 | <Hixie> | i guess i'll exclude it |
| 00:12 | <Hixie> | since maciej said to err on the side of caution with respect to the feature freeze |
| 00:16 | <Hixie> | oh, oops, i never got around to referencing FULLSCREEN |
| 00:21 | <hober> | yeah, we left the form integration for v2 |
| 00:22 | <Hixie> | k, i've left that out of the w3c copy |
| 00:22 | <Hixie> | (it's like five lines...) |
| 00:22 | <Hixie> | (ok maybe five paragraphs) |
| 00:34 | <Hixie> | ok. |
| 00:34 | <Hixie> | NOW i have finished <dialog>. |
| 00:34 | <Hixie> | right? |
| 00:34 | <Hixie> | right? |
| 00:35 | hober | hopes so! :) |
| 00:41 | <Hixie> | checked in. |
| 00:41 | <Hixie> | tomorrow i begin on the CSP refactoring |
| 00:42 | <Hixie> | actually i guess i'll have to reply to these dialog e-mails first |
| 01:18 | <abarth> | Hixie: seamless has some pretty funny bugs |
| 01:18 | <abarth> | Hixie: turns out you can't ever load anything into a seamless iframe |
| 01:19 | <abarth> | Hixie: i'll send an email to whatwg to explain |
| 01:35 | <zewt> | sort of funny to see people recommending canvas features that are pretty much identical to opengl minus a decade or so |
| 01:36 | <zewt> | i guess not really, strictly speaking, since blend functions are still fixed |
| 01:36 | <Hixie> | abarth: heh, k |
| 01:37 | <abarth> | Hixie: it's not actually as bad as I thought, but there is a bug in there |
| 01:46 | <Hixie> | abarth: btw, i'm planning on starting the CSP/sandbox refactoring tomorrow |
| 01:46 | <abarth> | Hixie: thanks |
| 01:47 | <abarth> | I think the main trickiness is that we'll want to be able to sandbox top-level documents |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | yup |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | re: seamless - um, yeah, oops |
| 01:48 | <abarth> | I probably sent you an email about the sandbox stuff. let me know if there's anything I can do to help |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | i expect tomorrow i'll just be printing and reading the CSP spec :-) |
| 01:49 | <abarth> | the sandbox requirements use "as if", which is always kind of sketchy |
| 01:49 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 07:02 | <annevk> | new cherry tomatoes at the AH |
| 07:02 | <annevk> | it's a good day |
| 07:07 | <nesta_> | annevk :) |
| 07:07 | <smaug____> | AH must be Albert Heijn or some such |
| 07:23 | <annevk> | smaug____: it is |
| 07:36 | <annevk> | I should use argument defaulting in XHR in general I guess |
| 07:36 | <annevk> | would simplify open() nicely |
| 07:43 | <Ms2ger> | Not much, I think |
| 07:44 | annevk | was dramatizing |
| 07:45 | <Ms2ger> | I only managed to use it for async |
| 08:01 | <wilhelm> | How stable is the chapter on the <time> element now? Was the feud of last year resolved? |
| 08:12 | <smaug____> | wilhelm: does any browser engine implement <time> ? |
| 08:12 | <smaug____> | looks like Opera |
| 08:13 | <smaug____> | ok, that is a better sign |
| 08:13 | <wilhelm> | smaug____: Opera implemented it before it was removed and put back again. |
| 08:13 | <smaug____> | ahaa |
| 08:14 | <smaug____> | in many cases I'd wait for 2+ implementations before calling anything stable |
| 08:17 | <wilhelm> | Indeed. I was merely wondering whether significant changes were planned, however. (I've returned my browser vendor hat, wearing the web developer hat today. “Let's use the <time> element!”, said one of the people I work with, pointing to documentation from, well, 2010. :) |
| 11:06 | <annevk> | heh 竼 is indeed cool |
| 11:06 | <annevk> | 竼 MAN WITH BAZOOKA |
| 11:07 | <annevk> | (re some time yesterday MikeSmith) |
| 11:09 | <hsivonen> | material for Fake Unicode Consortium on G+ |
| 11:13 | <hsivonen> | is it really the expectation that xmlDoc.load() fails if the caller is a document.open()ed document? |
| 11:21 | zcorpan | now follows FUC |
| 11:22 | <zcorpan> | hmm, it needs a K-something in the name |
| 13:15 | <zcorpan> | http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=https%3A%2F%2Fembed.spotify.com%2F%3Furi%3Dspotify%3Atrack%3A4bz7uB4edifWKJXSDxwHcs |
| 13:16 | <zcorpan> | (or check the Image Report) |
| 13:54 | <annevk> | http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-fullscreen-dialog |
| 14:04 | <zcorpan> | man the spec for innerHTML in xml needs a rewrite |
| 14:06 | <zcorpan> | here's a starting point for the replacement that's probably better than what's currently there: ¯\(°_o)/¯ |
| 14:12 | zcorpan | finds out about "xml:Father" |
| 14:16 | <annevk> | it's not SGML? |
| 14:16 | <annevk> | or is that mother? |
| 14:18 | <annevk> | I need context https://twitter.com/__farre__/status/190073001029550080 |
| 14:18 | <annevk> | anyone? |
| 14:21 | <zcorpan> | i guess CORE-45384 |
| 14:22 | <annevk> | heh |
| 14:55 | <tohava> | how would you recommend testing via javascript if a browser supports binary websocket frames? |
| 14:55 | <tohava> | also, does safari 5.1.5 support binary frames? |
| 15:00 | <zcorpan> | var binarySupported = (function(){ var s = new WebSocket('ws://example.invalid/'); s.close(); return 'binaryType' in s })(); |
| 15:01 | <zcorpan> | per spec this should work but it doesn't in all browsers yet: var binarySupported = 'binaryType' in WebSocket.prototype; |
| 15:02 | <tomasf_> | tohava: I think Safari still only supports draft 00 web sockets, but I could be wrong |
| 15:03 | <tohava> | tomasf, safari does hixie-76, but for some reason autobahn automated tests insist it supports binary frames in some way, this is why i'm confused |
| 15:03 | <tomasf_> | aha |
| 15:04 | <zcorpan> | a testsuite should just go "FAIL" for -76 |
| 15:39 | <Hixie> | wilhelm: i'm not aware of any outstanding feedback, but the htmlwg is still working through their bureaucracy dealing with the issues they raised on it months ago |
| 15:40 | <annevk> | http://www.peterkroener.de/die-karte-des-html5-universums/ is kind of cool |
| 15:40 | <annevk> | except WHATWG does not publish HTML5, but that's a minor typo |
| 16:32 | <MikeSmith> | I see the discussion in the coremob group has reached the point where it's clear that it's all about targeting the "Android 2.2 Froyo and iOS5 default browsers" |
| 16:32 | <MikeSmith> | that didn't take long |
| 16:33 | <MikeSmith> | wonder how long it will be before we have a "Best viewed in iOS or Android default browser." badge |
| 16:33 | <Ms2ger> | Never |
| 16:34 | <Ms2ger> | "Best viewed in iOS default browser", sure |
| 16:34 | <Ms2ger> | "Best viewed in Android default browser", sure |
| 16:34 | <Ms2ger> | But allowing both? Nah |
| 16:34 | <MikeSmith> | time to put WebGL into ring 0 |
| 16:35 | <Ms2ger> | How about window.opera? |
| 16:35 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, that too |
| 16:36 | <MikeSmith> | I think the criteria for ring 0 should be that at least one browser project has shipped an implementation on a browser for mobile devices |
| 16:37 | <MikeSmith> | isn't the point of this effort to drive browser projects to actually implement support for the platform? |
| 16:38 | <MikeSmith> | it is really misguided to capitulate to restrictiing the feature set to only those which the majority market share browsers implement |
| 16:38 | <MikeSmith> | the intention seems to be to intentionally restrict things such that we have some browsers that pass everything in ring 0 |
| 16:39 | <MikeSmith> | which is way different from the philosophy of the ACID tests, which were initially at least, Everybody Fails. |
| 16:40 | <MikeSmith> | setting up a test so that you intentionally restrict it in a way that ensures that particular browsers are always going to pass, that's .. wrong |
| 16:41 | <tantek> | MikeSmith, agreed. |
| 16:41 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, can at least look forward to the lulz forthcoming from further rationalizations about why this approach is good idea |
| 16:42 | <Ms2ger> | Is DRM in ring 0 already? |
| 16:42 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 16:42 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: it will be when default Android and i0S support it |
| 16:43 | <MikeSmith> | I wonder if they understand how this makes the barrier of entry for lower market-share mobile browsers that much higher |
| 16:44 | <MikeSmith> | this is exactly like creating a conformance level for desktop that restricts itself to only what's implemented in IE9 |
| 16:45 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, I guess I should shut up |
| 16:45 | <tantek> | no no, I think you're on a roll :) |
| 16:46 | <tantek> | MikeSmith - let me know when -webkit- prefixed properties make it into ring 0. |
| 16:46 | <Ms2ger> | They haven't yet? |
| 16:47 | <tantek> | then you'll know they're not even pretending to care about other browser engines. |
| 16:47 | <Ms2ger> | Surely we're all going to implement -webkit- prefixes? |
| 16:47 | <gsnedders> | tantek: I saw claims they already have. |
| 16:48 | <MikeSmith> | some of the apple-specific meta tags were in there before, iirc |
| 16:48 | <MikeSmith> | but I think they were since removed |
| 16:48 | <karlcow> | MikeSmith: I have the feeling that the audience is not defined. Marketers/Journalists or Browsers Implementers. The discussion seems to revolve around the first group. When the interesting question is what is needed for *Core* Mobile tech. |
| 16:48 | <MikeSmith> | um |
| 16:48 | <gsnedders> | If I want an HTML WYSIWYG editor, to edit really minimal content in — basically provided headers, lists, and paragraphs work fine, that's good for me. |
| 16:48 | <karlcow> | As usual, the tool displaying a score will become a certificate |
| 16:48 | <gsnedders> | *What do I want? |
| 16:49 | <tantek> | "Core" is political term |
| 16:49 | <MikeSmith> | karlcow: I don't think anybody is trying to target "Marketers/Journalists" here. not as far as I can see. at least I hope to god not |
| 16:49 | <MikeSmith> | tantek: as is "Open" |
| 16:50 | <MikeSmith> | which is why I pretty much avoid using "Open" |
| 16:50 | <Ms2ger> | "Web"? |
| 16:52 | <karlcow> | any kind of Proxy browsers, UCWeb, Opera Mini, Kindle Fire, etc. should they be included in the level 0 of requirements of what they should do. Which market needs are we trying to address? Which population with which revenues? etc. |
| 16:53 | <karlcow> | Ms2ger: Web is over philosophically and politically loaded ;) </joke> |
| 16:53 | <gsnedders> | karlcow: Well, Kindle Fire is fundementally different to UCWeb and Mini. |
| 16:53 | <MikeSmith> | totally unrelated, but on the good-news side, it's encouraging to see that abarth isn't totally against the proposal to update the parsing algorithm to support <template> |
| 16:53 | <karlcow> | gsnedders: agreed |
| 16:54 | <karlcow> | different type of use cases |
| 16:54 | <gsnedders> | UCWeb and Mini are *inherently* limited by their design. Kindle Fire shouldn't be black-box observably different from any other WebKit fork. |
| 16:54 | <MikeSmith> | and on the more good-news side, it looks like pointer lock is going to land in mozilla trunk soon |
| 16:56 | <MikeSmith> | back about ring 0, any test-y thing like this should reward browser projects for shipping feature support, not give them a disincentive for doing so |
| 16:56 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., case of WebGL support |
| 17:06 | <MikeSmith> | speaking purely hypothetically, this would be an especially misguided approach for platforms where users have no choice about which browser (engines) they are allowed to install on the devices they've purchased |
| 17:07 | <MikeSmith> | no I should really shut up |
| 17:14 | <tantek> | MikeSmith - difference between "Open" and "Core" is that "Open" tends to have fairly widely accepted principles and definitions, e.g. open source, open licenses etc. whereas "core" is always a one-off arbitrary distinction based on whoever is making the distinction - hence political. |
| 17:15 | <MikeSmith> | tantek: true I guess |
| 17:21 | <Ms2ger> | zcorpan: yes, it needs a rewrite |
| 17:21 | <Ms2ger> | Patches welcome |
| 17:44 | <MikeSmith> | I wonder how much more resources Mozilla could put on work for Firefox Mobile is i0S users had the choice to install it |
| 17:44 | <MikeSmith> | same thing for Opera Mobile |
| 18:00 | <hober> | annevk: hey, so we're in the notifications wg now, yay! |
| 18:00 | <MikeSmith> | hober: yeah, thanks |
| 18:00 | <MikeSmith> | and welcome :) |
| 18:01 | <MikeSmith> | this helps to ensure that plh is not going to tell me to shut down the notifications wg and tell us to move it to a CG |
| 18:02 | <MikeSmith> | we are only chartered until June |
| 18:02 | <MikeSmith> | and I suggest that we haul ass to publish a LC draft soon |
| 18:02 | <Ms2ger> | Shut it down anyway |
| 18:02 | <Ms2ger> | Along with the HTMLWG |
| 18:03 | <Ms2ger> | That one certainly has more "Community" than "Working" |
| 18:04 | <MikeSmith> | I'd be happy to shut down all WGs |
| 18:04 | <MikeSmith> | less work for me :) |
| 18:04 | <MikeSmith> | great idea to make the Web a free-for-all where |
| 18:04 | <MikeSmith> | ... where a CG can bind its work to specific products |
| 18:05 | <MikeSmith> | so let's definitely do more of that |
| 18:05 | <zcorpan> | tohava: what if the user has a server on localhost? (i dunno if browsers allow cross-network websocket like that...) |
| 18:05 | <hober> | MikeSmith annevk: first thing on the notifications agenda for me is to try to drive the permissioning issue to some kind of conclusion |
| 18:05 | <MikeSmith> | hober: oh please yes |
| 18:05 | <hober> | but first, i've got to finish up this canvas hit testing CP. :/ |
| 18:06 | <MikeSmith> | hober: btw, after the meetings in May I am planning to not head back home til Sunday, so if you have time on Saturday, I hope to paint the town red |
| 18:06 | <MikeSmith> | along with annevk |
| 18:07 | <hober> | I'm flying to Germany that Saturday for the CSS F2F |
| 18:07 | <hober> | but friday night, it's *on* |
| 18:07 | <MikeSmith> | 了解 |
| 18:09 | <MikeSmith> | effing CSS always seems to get in the way of unlimited debauchery |
| 18:10 | <zcorpan> | unlimited debauchery? wow |
| 18:10 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith knows what the ultimate end point is |
| 18:11 | <zcorpan> | fuck standards |
| 18:11 | <MikeSmith> | that's one of the very few things I know anything about |
| 18:12 | <Ms2ger> | Standards or debauchery? |
| 18:12 | <MikeSmith> | I know nothing about standards |
| 18:12 | <MikeSmith> | standards just continue to find novel ways to confuse me |
| 18:12 | <Ms2ger> | You have no standards, that's something else ;) |
| 18:12 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 18:13 | <MikeSmith> | I am a world-class expert in debauchery |
| 18:13 | <MikeSmith> | Coxcombe, profligate, popinjay, rake, Bully Dawson, 道楽者 |
| 18:13 | <MikeSmith> | I welcome anybody who wants to challenge me on that |
| 18:14 | <TabAtkins> | Cool, CSS Images 3 just went to CR. |
| 18:14 | <Ms2ger> | MikeSmith, a duel at dawn? |
| 18:14 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: bring it on |
| 18:15 | <Ms2ger> | No thanks, my money is on you |
| 18:15 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 18:15 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: blog post don't mention location.parentOrigin. karlcow scooped you |
| 18:16 | karlcow | who was making the point of being fashionably late… here goes my reputation. Damn |
| 18:17 | <MikeSmith> | http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-April/035348.html is a great message btw |
| 18:17 | <MikeSmith> | [[ |
| 18:17 | <MikeSmith> | I constantly fear that origin scoping for security mechanisms is too |
| 18:17 | <MikeSmith> | coarse-grained in many use cases, because the complexity of what lives |
| 18:18 | <MikeSmith> | in any single origin is growing pretty rapidly. Sites put |
| 18:18 | <MikeSmith> | attacker-controlled content inside framed gadgets or advertisements, |
| 18:18 | <MikeSmith> | and can't be reasonably expected to understand that if such a frame is |
| 18:18 | <MikeSmith> | navigated to in a particular way, it may circumvent an origin-scoped |
| 18:18 | <MikeSmith> | check. |
| 18:18 | <MikeSmith> | ]] |
| 18:18 | <zcorpan> | nice - http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2012/04/html5-accessibility-chops-data-for-the-masses/ |
| 18:19 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: Steve walks the walk |
| 18:19 | <Ms2ger> | Next: longdesc? |
| 18:21 | <MikeSmith> | I think Steve's conspicuous lack of public comment on longdesc makes his thoughts on it sorta conspicuous already |
| 18:22 | <MikeSmith> | when Steve has a strong position in support of something, he states it |
| 18:22 | <TabAtkins> | For example, he has a strong position that I am dumb as concrete. |
| 18:23 | <MikeSmith> | Steve ain't dumb |
| 18:23 | <MikeSmith> | he gets paid money to do real accessibility work for clients |
| 18:24 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, in general when you see other accessibility professionals in the group who do actual client/product work, and they don't come out strongly in support of something, that tells you somethng |
| 18:24 | <zcorpan> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=708406 - anyone know where the data file went? |
| 18:26 | <zcorpan> | oh, there was an android version and a safari version |
| 18:27 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: sounds like you have complete support then |
| 18:31 | MikeSmith | looks around for tantek to mention something about "open" |
| 18:31 | <Ms2ger> | Core |
| 18:32 | <MikeSmith> | instead I'll just say, https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2012-April/020182.html |
| 18:33 | <MikeSmith> | "sharded" has become a verb now? |
| 18:33 | <TabAtkins> | Yes? |
| 18:33 | <TabAtkins> | Has been for some time. |
| 18:33 | <karlcow> | hmm list of urls |
| 18:34 | <karlcow> | the only issue I have with the surveys we all do is that we have a tendency to use the home page, which is a very specific type of page on a Web site |
| 18:36 | <zcorpan> | stevef's data seems to have lost the URLs, which makes it slightly less useful :-| |
| 18:37 | <MikeSmith> | TabAtkins: I guess I don't get around enough |
| 18:37 | <karlcow> | zcorpan: what do you mean? "lost" |
| 18:39 | <zcorpan> | karlcow: the downloaded pages have names like index-123.html and no mapping to the original URL of the page, afaict |
| 18:40 | <karlcow> | aaaah |
| 18:40 | <karlcow> | in his sample |
| 18:40 | <zcorpan> | yeah |
| 18:40 | <karlcow> | Maybe it is just a matter of telling him if he has the reference |
| 18:41 | <zcorpan> | he usually reads the logs and replies on twitter :-) |
| 18:45 | <MikeSmith> | much cheerz to chaals for speaking wisdome |
| 18:45 | <MikeSmith> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-coremob/2012Apr/0062.html |
| 18:46 | <MikeSmith> | "The picture in Asia is much more mixed." etc. |
| 18:47 | <MikeSmith> | though I suspect the response is effectively going to be, fuck asia |
| 18:47 | <MikeSmith> | because, who cares out those billions of people? |
| 18:48 | <MikeSmith> | since their web interactions don't translate into ad revenue |
| 18:49 | <MikeSmith> | this discussion process is really useful, actually |
| 18:50 | <MikeSmith> | in that it clarifies that the goal is to target users whose web interactions are the most monetizable |
| 19:09 | <abarth> | MikeSmith: I was skeptical of the <template> stuff at first, but I've come around. It's not actually that nutty a change. |
| 19:10 | <MikeSmith> | abarth: yeah, understood |
| 19:12 | <karlcow> | MikeSmith: definitely useful. Doing devrel it is another drawback we have. People very often creates their Web site for the very local market and/or thinking they will only have local users with the new top smartphone. Mirror effect? "Users are what I see in the mirror in the morning" |
| 19:13 | <MikeSmith> | karlcow: that's actually a pretty smart business model for most orgs |
| 19:14 | <MikeSmith> | it's not as if users in Indonesia or Ukraine are generating much revenue for various corpo-web properties/services |
| 19:16 | <karlcow> | MikeSmith: for paid apps "maybe". For Ads revenues, I'm not that sure. |
| 19:16 | <karlcow> | that would be an interesting study to do. |
| 19:17 | <MikeSmith> | I think I know that the results of that study would be |
| 19:18 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: heh, location.targetOrigin was too obscure |
| 19:18 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: also, it's just an idea at this point |
| 19:18 | <isherman> | Hixie: Any ETA on when you'll have some time to look in more depth at [ http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Autocomplete_Types ]? |
| 19:18 | <annevk> | yeah, leave... |
| 19:18 | <annevk> | :p |
| 19:18 | <annevk> | hober: yeah I noticed, that's awesome |
| 19:18 | <karlcow> | I guess also $socialNetwork have a population of users in developing countries just by the fact of immigration. Son, daughter, or friends studying in another rich country and driving the relations into using the $socialnetwork. This would be interesting to measure |
| 19:19 | <annevk> | hober: the permission stuff is a problem, the spec writing seems like a minor problem too, but maybe we can overcome that somehow |
| 19:19 | <annevk> | hober: or maybe you can help out ;) |
| 19:56 | <hober> | annevk: :) |
| 20:09 | <annevk> | I didn't know about ArrayBufferView |
| 20:09 | <annevk> | if I had we would not have had responseType = "arraybuffer" |
| 20:09 | <annevk> | many times bah |
| 20:10 | <annevk> | nn |
| 20:10 | <Ms2ger> | nn |
| 20:19 | <TabAtkins> | Man, ArrayBuffer is kinda broken all over the place. |
| 20:28 | <Ms2ger> | A true Web API |
| 20:29 | <TabAtkins> | Good point. |
| 20:35 | <jamesr> | created to avoid having to wait for tc39 |
| 21:28 | <Hixie> | isherman: no current ETA but if it's on my list of things to prioritise. O(weeks), not months. |
| 21:29 | <isherman> | Hixie: Ok, thanks |
| 21:29 | <Hixie> | (sorry about the delay, i've been dealing with big feature issues that i'd been putting on the back burner for too long) |
| 21:30 | <Hixie> | (like the canvas v5 api additions, <dialog>, csp, web intents...) |
| 21:42 | <hober> | First pass on a canvas hit testing CP that restores the v5 Path object etc.; any comments / thoughts / suggestions for improvement? http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-201 |
| 23:19 | <hober> | deafening response :) |
| 23:23 | <Velmont> | As always ;-) |
| 23:38 | <zewt> | googling specs is becoming useless; 'site:whatwg.org/specs "structured clone"' apparently no longer even returns http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-dom-interfaces.html |