| 05:45 | <annevk> | TabAtkins: super awesome |
| 05:51 | <annevk> | mpt: http://www.mpt.net.nz/ :( |
| 05:51 | <annevk> | mpt: I was still subscribed |
| 05:52 | <annevk> | mpt: but not for "My Positive Thoughts" by "Mat" |
| 06:19 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 06:19 | <annevk> | so Gecko simply does not have a iso-2022-kr encoder?! |
| 06:19 | <annevk> | <!doctype html><meta charset=iso-2022-kr><a href="http://dump.testsuite.org/url/query-dump.php?q=testて">test</a><script>var a = document.getElementsByTagName("a")[0]; alert(a.search) </script> |
| 06:20 | <annevk> | yields utf-8 |
| 06:20 | <annevk> | Gecko: ?q=test%E3%81%A6 Opera/Chrome: ?%1B$)Cq=test%0E*F%0F |
| 06:23 | <annevk> | well, I'm going to define one anyway, objections can go into bugzilla |
| 06:49 | <annevk> | teehee http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#iso-2022-kr-encoder |
| 06:50 | <annevk> | guess I'll write a blog post about big5 now and call it a week :p |
| 06:50 | <annevk> | or maybe address some of those bugs / work on sniffing... |
| 07:46 | <nesta_> | good morning :) |
| 07:48 | <annevk> | morning |
| 08:21 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/?doc=data%3Atext%2Fhtml%3Bcharset%3Dutf-8%2C%3C%21doctype%2520html%3E%250D%250A%3Ctitle%3E%3C%252Ftitle%3E%250D%250A%3Cinput%2520type%253Dimage%2520value%253Dfoo%2520alt%253Dbar%3E&showsource=yes |
| 08:22 | <MikeSmith> | round 3 |
| 08:24 | <annevk> | it would be awesome if after "Attribute value not allowed on element input at this point" you had ", because type is image" |
| 08:24 | <annevk> | is that feasible? |
| 08:24 | <MikeSmith> | no |
| 08:24 | <MikeSmith> | unfortunately |
| 08:25 | <annevk> | okay, how about highlighting the value attribute line in the overview below? |
| 08:25 | <MikeSmith> | oh |
| 08:25 | <MikeSmith> | that's a good idea |
| 08:25 | <MikeSmith> | that's doable |
| 08:25 | <MikeSmith> | very good idea |
| 08:25 | <annevk> | pretty awesome you put some much into this validator man |
| 08:26 | <annevk> | authors are gonna like it |
| 08:26 | <MikeSmith> | well one part's that not so awesome about it is we've had this bug open for more than 3 years now |
| 08:27 | <MikeSmith> | or rather, I think it was at least 3 years ago that people started filing bugs about this |
| 08:27 | <annevk> | Encoding standard has been bugging me for about four years now I think :) |
| 08:27 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, it's nice to get some of this stuff done |
| 08:27 | <MikeSmith> | I should have fixed this a long time ago |
| 08:47 | <jgraham> | So I'm behind. What's the latest state of callbacks in WebIDL (e.g. for event handler attributes) |
| 08:48 | <jgraham> | HTML defines interface Function with [Callback=FunctionOnly] |
| 08:48 | <jgraham> | But FunctionOnly doesn't seem to be defined in WebIDL |
| 08:53 | <annevk> | HTML needs to change that to "callback Function = any(any...)" iirc |
| 08:53 | <annevk> | plus something else |
| 08:53 | <annevk> | the nullable stuff |
| 08:53 | <annevk> | there's an open bug on HTML for that filed by me |
| 09:12 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: are the actual ringmark tests on github? I only see harness code there? what am I missing? |
| 09:12 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: They are in a different repo. somewhere |
| 09:12 | <jgraham> | If you have the facebook blogpost open somewhere it links to both |
| 09:13 | <jgraham> | https://github.com/coremob/coremob-tests/ perhaps? |
| 09:14 | <jgraham> | Oh no that's the harness |
| 09:15 | <hsivonen> | right |
| 09:15 | <jgraham> | FWIW Tobie seemed to agree that the current way that prefixes are tested is broken, although I think we disagree on the magnitude of the breakage |
| 09:16 | <hsivonen> | it would be nice if the CSS WG rescinded the policy that leads to such breakage |
| 09:17 | <hsivonen> | so that a CG didn't need to figure out how to deal with the fruits of the policy |
| 09:18 | <jgraham> | Indeed. Sadly it looks like even money on that and hell freezing over |
| 09:18 | <annevk> | http://annevankesteren.nl/2012/04/big5 |
| 09:18 | <jgraham> | annevk: Over 9000 what? |
| 09:20 | <annevk> | search for "over 9000" |
| 09:20 | <annevk> | but also pointer/code point mappings |
| 09:22 | <jgraham> | Sigh, young people. |
| 09:22 | <annevk> | oh, I never watched that show |
| 09:23 | <annevk> | I just know about the meme |
| 10:04 | <annevk> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Encoding |
| 11:45 | <annevk> | smaug____: we can fix intersectsNode, no problem |
| 11:45 | <smaug____> | annevk: you mean Opera? |
| 11:45 | <smaug____> | that would be nice |
| 11:45 | <smaug____> | the current API is strange |
| 12:17 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: do we need to allow parsers to abort for syntax errors? |
| 12:18 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: html needs that because it's incompatible with streaming, but css probably doesn't |
| 12:19 | <annevk> | validator might want it |
| 12:19 | <zcorpan> | "Conformance checkers are not required to recover from parse errors." |
| 12:24 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: shouldn't there be a step using the charset of the parent stylesheet or document (that linked the stylesheet)? |
| 12:33 | <zcorpan> | which svg attributes take a css number with scientific notation? |
| 12:36 | <zcorpan> | "For example, scientific notation is allowed in attributes, including presentation attributes, but not in style sheets." is what i find in svg1.1 |
| 12:41 | <zcorpan> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1475 |
| 12:41 | <zcorpan> | seems webkit doesn't support hashless colors in svg attributes at all |
| 12:43 | <zcorpan> | i guess that's a good approach, but i dunno how it should be specced |
| 12:44 | <zcorpan> | oh, actually, since the quirks spec only applies it to a number of properties, i guess it automatically doesn't apply to any of the svg attributes (unless they map to one of those properties or something) |
| 13:17 | <annevk> | wait all of css is now in https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/ |
| 13:17 | <annevk> | but they keep using dev.w3.org URLs? |
| 13:18 | <annevk> | confusing |
| 13:18 | <annevk> | and getting the changelog per draft is somewhat hard too |
| 13:22 | <davidb> | ygoat |
| 13:25 | <annevk> | smaug____: fixed |
| 13:25 | <annevk> | smaug____: dom spec that is, not Opera :) |
| 13:27 | <smaug____> | thanks |
| 13:27 | <smaug____> | Ms2ger can now update his patch |
| 13:27 | <smaug____> | or her |
| 13:28 | <smaug____> | we never know |
| 13:28 | <annevk> | CORE-45741 is the bug on Opera for those with access |
| 13:28 | <smaug____> | its |
| 13:37 | <zewt> | somebody splitting a thread to title case a subject: one of the more bizarre things i've seen on mailing lists in a while |
| 13:39 | <annevk> | where is this? |
| 13:40 | <zewt> | webapps |
| 13:40 | <zewt> | subject Re: IndexedDB: Retrieving A Slice Of A Record Value. |
| 13:40 | <zewt> | somebody at opera, no less :) |
| 13:47 | <hsivonen> | do we have a spec for generating a Document when an image, plug-in, video or audio file is loaded into a browsing context? |
| 13:48 | <smaug____> | is there any way to get notified when a spec changes |
| 13:48 | <smaug____> | (not whatwg html) |
| 13:48 | <smaug____> | annevk: like for DOM4 |
| 13:48 | <smaug____> | hsivonen: I thought html spec defines that |
| 13:48 | <smaug____> | at least for images |
| 13:48 | <smaug____> | I could be wrong |
| 13:49 | <zcorpan> | smaug____: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/shortlog has a feed |
| 13:51 | <smaug____> | zcorpan: thanks |
| 13:51 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: "Otherwise, if the next input character is a digit, or the next 2 input characters are U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS (-) followed by a digit, switch to the number state.", is --1 supposed to go to the number state? |
| 13:52 | <hsivonen> | smaug____: OK. then I need to figure out what words to search for. (not "image" apparently!) |
| 13:53 | <annevk> | hsivonen: "page load processing" |
| 13:53 | <annevk> | "Page load processing model for media" in particular, section 666 |
| 13:54 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: hashless looks if there's a comment between the "+" or "-" delim and the number/dimension/ident token, but your tokenizer seems to not emit comments |
| 13:55 | <hsivonen> | annevk: apt section number considering how bad readyState is in Gecko in that case |
| 13:55 | <smaug____> | hsivonen: I can't find it either |
| 13:55 | <smaug____> | section 666 sounds evil :) |
| 13:55 | <hsivonen> | ok. so the spec allows adding random stuff to <head>. |
| 13:55 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: or, hmm, actually it tries to skip comments, so that's good |
| 13:55 | <hsivonen> | I expected the code I saw to be non-compliant. |
| 13:56 | <hsivonen> | but seems to be compliant! |
| 14:00 | <zewt> | annevk: heh, good luck with sniffing, that seems like something implementors would be loathe to touch (since any change will doubtless break some pages while fixing others) |
| 14:02 | <annevk> | doesn't seem that different from any other change |
| 14:02 | <zewt> | the nasty part is that in some browsers (IE, at least), it's based on the user's system language ... doesn't matter if that's specced, it's inherently zero interop |
| 14:03 | <zewt> | well, it's a lot more fuzzy |
| 14:04 | <hsivonen> | zewt: since the system language is IE's UI language, that's not much worse that Firefox's default behavior depending on the Firefox UI language |
| 14:05 | <zewt> | hsivonen: i'd phrase that the other way around: "firefox isn't much better" :) (don't recall how FF handles things off-hand) |
| 14:06 | <zewt> | i think the big problem is going to be that no matter what heuristics are used, they're going to be less "reliable" for same-language users (users reading pages in their own language) than depending on the user's language, which will make it hard to get browsers to stop doing that |
| 14:06 | <zewt> | worth a try |
| 14:07 | <hsivonen> | IIRC someone told me in Opera the domain name the document is served from factors into the heuristic... |
| 14:07 | <hsivonen> | TLD that is |
| 14:08 | <zewt> | heh, yuck--taking a document and putting it on a different website shouldn't make it stop working :| |
| 14:08 | <zewt> | but, well, heuristics are yuck by nature... |
| 14:09 | <jgraham> | Well opening it in teh same browser confiugured to a different locale shouldn't either, but… |
| 14:09 | <hsivonen> | I think using the TLD is less evil than relying on the UI language |
| 14:09 | <zewt> | lots of unmet "shouldn't"s when it comes to encoding compat :) |
| 14:11 | <zewt> | afk |
| 15:23 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 16:43 | <kennyluck> | "Easter edition quiz! The CSS 2.1 spec has at least one easter egg. Can you find one?" refers to what? |
| 16:44 | <kennyluck> | (There are many errors in CSS 2.1 but none of which I would call easter egg.) |
| 16:44 | <TabAtkins> | kennyluck: Read his later tweet! |
| 16:44 | <TabAtkins> | I and dbaron and others point out some of them. |
| 16:45 | <kennyluck> | TabAtkins, ah. I should have done that. Thanks. |
| 16:46 | <kennyluck> | Well that one… isn't very entertaining either :p |
| 16:46 | <TabAtkins> | That's because you're an hollow, humorless shell of a person. |
| 16:47 | <kennyluck> | = = |
| 16:48 | <annevk> | that went dark fast |
| 16:49 | <TabAtkins> | ^_^ |
| 16:50 | <annevk> | Velmont: filing a bug on your server-sent events issue might be good |
| 16:50 | <annevk> | Velmont: dunno how much Hixie monitors public-webapps these days |
| 17:05 | <Velmont> | annevk: It was just as much to also get discussion about it. Should I cross-post to WHATWG? |
| 17:05 | <Velmont> | s/discussion/some answers/ :P |
| 17:46 | <jscheel> | hello everyone, I'm a little confused on the property attribute of meta tags. If I use the name attribute, the name is validated against http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions, but if I use property, it isn't. What's the difference? |
| 17:47 | <TabAtkins> | Is "property" from RDFa or something? |
| 17:47 | <webben> | jscheel: Well, they're different. |
| 17:47 | <webben> | yes |
| 17:47 | <TabAtkins> | That would be why, then. |
| 17:48 | <webben> | jscheel: the design of meta@name fights naming collisions with a wiki. the design of meta@property fights naming collisions with namespaces. |
| 17:49 | <jscheel> | webben: so, I just want to have <meta name="company:property" content="content"> or <meta property="company:property" content="content"> |
| 17:49 | <webben> | what are those? |
| 17:49 | <webben> | jscheel: What do you want clients to do with that markup? What's it for? |
| 17:50 | <jscheel> | webben: just custom settings that will be parsed my a decorator |
| 17:50 | <webben> | jscheel: Do you mean you're going to do something in your JS with that data? |
| 17:51 | <jscheel> | webben: actually, it will be parsed server-side. I am using html as a theming engine, sort of the way tumblr does it |
| 17:51 | <jscheel> | webben: for example, tumblr has this in a theme definition: <meta name="text:Disqus Shortname" content="" /> |
| 17:51 | <webben> | jscheel: Well, either way, that's what @data-* was designed for. |
| 17:52 | <jscheel> | webben: hmm, that's true, they could just be data attributes on the html tag |
| 17:52 | <webben> | <html data-yourframework-company="whatever"> |
| 17:52 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, if you're just putting information into the markup that you'll use in some scripts in the page, use the data-* attributes. |
| 17:52 | <jscheel> | webben: I didn't even think about doing it that way |
| 17:52 | <jscheel> | that makes WAY more sense |
| 17:52 | <webben> | :) |
| 17:52 | <jscheel> | thanks! |
| 17:58 | <jscheel> | webben: so, do multiple data attributes work the same way as meta tags? iirc, if you have two keywords metatags, the spec is to concat and uniq them. If I have two data-palette tags on the same element, should the be put into an array when accessed via javascript? |
| 17:59 | <webben> | er... i imagine repeating any attribute is an error |
| 18:00 | <webben> | jscheel: If you want to embed a list, I'd be inclined to use a simple separator (whitespace often works well). |
| 18:00 | <webben> | jscheel: @data-yourframework-palette="green red beige" |
| 18:01 | <webben> | commas is another good choice |
| 18:01 | <webben> | if you need a list of arbitrary strings, you could embed JSON rather than inventing your own format |
| 18:01 | <TabAtkins> | Yes to everything @webben just said. |
| 18:01 | <webben> | @data-yourframework-keyphrases='["foo","bar","baz"]' |
| 18:02 | <jscheel> | webben: TabAtkins: here's what I've been struggling with: http://pastie.org/3805737 |
| 18:02 | <jscheel> | I'm trying to make it easy enough for a designer / front-end coder to use |
| 18:02 | <TabAtkins> | That first block of code seems fine. |
| 18:04 | <jscheel> | TabAtkins: so then just match data-theme-palette-* when pulling the content? |
| 18:04 | <webben> | pretty much |
| 18:04 | <webben> | (I'd add -yourframework- in to avoid collisions with random JS or whatever your frontenders want to include) |
| 18:05 | <jscheel> | webben: ah, true |
| 18:05 | <jscheel> | webben: TabAtkins: thanks for working through this with me |
| 18:05 | <webben> | yw |
| 18:06 | <TabAtkins> | zcorpan: If you see this later, that was a c&p typo. It's meant to be U+002E FULL STOP, not U+002D. |
| 18:07 | <TabAtkins> | I presume my brain was infected by the U+002D case immediately prior for recognizing a cdc token, and then I copied it up into the + state. |
| 19:23 | <rafaelw_> | hsivonen: any chance you'll have a chance to evaluate dimitri's parser changes for <template>? |
| 19:24 | <jgraham> | rafaelw_: (hsivonen probably isn't around right now) |
| 19:24 | <jgraham> | But I should look at those too |
| 19:25 | <rafaelw_> | Please do. I'd appreciate that. Do you have the email already? |
| 19:48 | <jgraham> | It was sent to whatwg, I think? |
| 19:48 | <jgraham> | Or was there another more secret one? ;) |
| 19:49 | <jgraham> | Oh webapps. But thanksa for re-forwarding it |
| 19:49 | <jgraham> | I will try to look tomorrow; kind of late here now |
| 19:50 | <jgraham> | My first comment is "have you looked for people using <template> elements in the wild and not expecting magic behaviour?" |
| 19:51 | <jgraham> | Presumably this is quite easy to do if you are working for Google :) |
| 19:54 | <TabAtkins> | It's not easy, but it's not particularly hard. |
| 19:54 | <jgraham> | Well for the rest of us it is particularly hard, so if you are working for Google it is quite easy by comparison :p |
| 19:58 | <Philip`> | http://philip.html5.org/data/tag-count-pages.txt says 3 pages out of 130K have <template> |
| 20:28 | <kennyluck> | I am surprised to see <html> <head> having the same number of occurrence. |
| 20:50 | <Philip`> | kennyluck: That's because the URL is lying, it's counting elements instead of tags |
| 20:50 | <Philip`> | kennyluck: and the parser always inserts html and head elements |
| 20:52 | <kennyluck> | Philip`, ah, OK. |
| 21:05 | <Matt______> | Would this be a good channel to ask a question about WebRTC? If so, is there a webrtc api for sending text/data to other browsers, and not just video and audio? |
| 22:24 | <zewt> | Hixie: where should I file a bug for the CSS "balanced" word wrapping mode for WebVTT? (http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-December/034026.html) |
| 22:24 | <zewt> | (unless it's already filed; dunno) |
| 22:25 | <zewt> | (if that has to go to the CSSWG or something, then I'll let somebody familiar with them deal with it) |
| 22:30 | <TabAtkins> | zewt: That (or things like that) have been proposed before, but it's an O(n^2) algorithm to do. |
| 22:31 | <TabAtkins> | And thus kinda hard to put in CSS, in case people apply it to their whole page, filled with large paragraphs. |
| 22:36 | <TabAtkins> | If we put it into Text, it'd have to be something that UAs are allowed to ignore. |
| 22:37 | <TabAtkins> | Send it to www-style with a title starting with "[css4-text]" |
| 22:37 | <TabAtkins> | fantasai says it was previously in Text 3, but it was badly-defined. |
| 22:42 | <zewt> | seems like it shouldn't need to be exponential, at least naively |
| 22:42 | <TabAtkins> | It's not exponential. It's n^2. |
| 22:42 | <TabAtkins> | That's polynomial, dude. |
| 22:42 | <zewt> | not particularly interested in dealing with more mailing lists, though |
| 22:42 | <zewt> | d00d |
| 22:53 | <Matt______> | is there a webrtc api for sending text/data to other browsers, and not just video and audio? kinda like p2p websockets? I remember reading that webrtc had the ability to send data, and not only video/audio, but I couldn't find much more information on the topic |
| 23:24 | arunranga | wonders if it's worth defining "microtask" since we've got "Perform a microtask checkpoint" defined. |
| 23:29 | <Matt______> | with regards to my question earlier, I found that instead of webrtc, you could just use shared workers |
| 23:29 | <WeirdAl> | hi arun :) |
| 23:42 | <zewt> | https://zewt.org/~glenn/wrapping.py naive attempt at balanced wrapping; linear time on the length of the string |
| 23:49 | <TabAtkins> | Ah, yes, indeed. I forgot that the n^2 part comes in when you try to balance the justification, too. |
| 23:50 | <TabAtkins> | The problem is still actually n^2 even with your simple attempt if you want *perfect* balancing. |
| 23:50 | <zewt> | "perfect or nothing" is the cause of more useless programmer headaches :) |
| 23:50 | <TabAtkins> | But if you're willing to accept somewhat non-optimal solutions, a greedy algorithm does well in non-degenerate cases and is linear. |
| 23:51 | <zewt> | i'll always take a suboptimal solution over none at all |
| 23:51 | <zewt> | (and I doubt it's suboptimal enough to matter) |
| 23:59 | <TabAtkins> | zewt: ...why are you calculating the width of a word by summing the index of each letter in the alphabet? |