| 02:39 | <Hixie> | jamesr_: no idea. i think hallvord was the last custodian, try asking him. |
| 03:10 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: which spec was that? |
| 04:01 | <MikeSmith> | "An expert is a man who has stopped thinking because he knows." |
| 04:27 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: hit testing in IE |
| 04:28 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 05:53 | <annevk> | Latest on hit testing was this http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0407.html |
| 05:53 | <annevk> | Then tantek was going to add it to CSS3 UI |
| 05:54 | <annevk> | Then that did not happen and it was going to be CSS4 UI |
| 05:54 | <annevk> | I kind of lost hope. They should just have let Leif do it |
| 06:04 | <annevk> | jamesr_: Hixie: ^^ |
| 06:26 | <rniwa> | annevk: hit testing is hard :\ |
| 06:26 | <rniwa> | annevk: i think one thing we need to do is decide the scope of the spec. |
| 06:27 | <rniwa> | annevk: if you try to spec everything including caret position, selection, etc... then it becomes an impossible task |
| 06:27 | <rniwa> | annevk: if, however, we restrict ourselves to be focusing on things like just elements, then there might be some hope :) |
| 06:28 | <annevk> | rniwa: I've mostly been thinking about mouse events and :hover, but editing is indeed a problem too |
| 06:28 | <rniwa> | annevk: yeah, just spec'ing mouse events and :hover will be good for most use cases. |
| 06:28 | <rniwa> | annevk: i don't think we can spec hit testing for editing because of different platform conventions |
| 06:28 | <annevk> | e.g. http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#dom-document-caretpositionfrompoint is not defined much at all |
| 06:29 | <rniwa> | annevk: i mean can you imagine having to specify 5-6 different conventions for different caret behaviors around bidi embedding boundaries? |
| 06:29 | <annevk> | rniwa: I can imagine it would be painful :) |
| 06:29 | <rniwa> | annevk: i know at least windows, mac, and linux all have different behaviors when you click around bidi boundary. |
| 06:30 | <rniwa> | annevk: not to mention i think android & chrome os also use different conventions from all the rest :( |
| 06:30 | <rniwa> | annevk: i'm sure there are plenty more on this. |
| 06:30 | <annevk> | yeah maybe once you get to that point it would be okay to let it be platform-dependent with some rough guidelines |
| 06:30 | <rniwa> | yup. |
| 06:30 | <rniwa> | it's not realistic to spec everything at some point. |
| 06:30 | <annevk> | but which text you hit depending on which element it is in would be a great start |
| 06:30 | <rniwa> | annevk: btw, we should really fix click event |
| 06:31 | <rniwa> | annevk: it's insane that we don't fire click event whenever cursor moves across an element boundary :\ |
| 06:31 | <rniwa> | annevk: (the spec currently says we fire click only if mousedown & mouseup happen on the same target) |
| 06:31 | <rniwa> | annevk: (which is very unlikely scenario if you have tiny spans, etc...) |
| 06:32 | <annevk> | is that actually what is implemented? |
| 06:32 | <rniwa> | annevk: yeah, in webkit :( |
| 06:32 | <rniwa> | annevk: i really want to fix it. |
| 06:32 | <rniwa> | annevk: because our current behavior is insanely bad from UX stand point of view. |
| 06:32 | <rniwa> | annevk: i think almost all other browsers do something different, which i don't quite understand. |
| 06:32 | <annevk> | UI Events spec is kind of a mess |
| 06:32 | <rniwa> | annevk: e.g. IE always fires click event |
| 06:33 | <rniwa> | annevk: indeed. |
| 06:33 | <rniwa> | annevk: but that's the most important kind of events! |
| 06:33 | <rniwa> | annevk: i mean... who cares about all those exotic events. UI events are the one developers use the most. |
| 06:34 | <rniwa> | but it's kind of understandable the way it is now. spec'ing UI events is hard :\ |
| 06:34 | <annevk> | I guess the problem is that they're hard and that properly defining them is not something many people can do |
| 06:34 | <annevk> | :) |
| 06:34 | <rniwa> | annevk: yup. |
| 06:35 | <rniwa> | annevk: i've seen enough code in webkit to know that much. |
| 06:35 | <annevk> | e.g. focus events are a mess too |
| 06:36 | <rniwa> | annevk: yeah. |
| 06:36 | <rniwa> | annevk: oh my... don't get me started on focusin, focusout, etc... |
| 06:36 | <rniwa> | they're giving me nightmares. |
| 06:36 | <annevk> | better not talk about them now then :p |
| 06:36 | <rniwa> | you can talk about it. |
| 06:37 | <rniwa> | but i might just rant for an hour :P |
| 06:37 | <rniwa> | annevk: i think the biggest headache for me right now is the relationship between selection & focus |
| 06:38 | <rniwa> | annevk: in webkit, focus follows selection |
| 06:38 | <rniwa> | on all other browsers, selection follows focus |
| 06:38 | <rniwa> | meaning that if you type something, the character appears at where selection is in webkit |
| 06:38 | <rniwa> | but at where focus is on all other browsers. |
| 06:38 | <rniwa> | apparently this is Mac-ism |
| 06:40 | <annevk> | how do you reproduce that? |
| 06:42 | <rniwa> | annevk: put focus & selection on different nodes |
| 06:42 | <rniwa> | and type a character |
| 06:43 | <annevk> | oh if you select something via an API focus is not changed? |
| 06:44 | <rniwa> | annevk: yeah something like that |
| 06:44 | <rniwa> | it's a little tricky to do. |
| 06:46 | <annevk> | I need to go get breakfast before they stop serving it |
| 06:46 | <rniwa> | annevk: we'll see if i can come up with an example by the time you come back ;) |
| 06:47 | <annevk> | I've kind of wanted to define UI events for a long time, but the last time I attempted with keyboard events I got stuck |
| 06:52 | <rniwa> | annevk: https://bug-56271-attachments.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=85623 is a fun demo |
| 06:53 | <rniwa> | (from https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56271) |
| 06:53 | <rniwa> | Ms2ger: hi Ms2ger! how about some UI events discussion :D |
| 06:54 | <Ms2ger> | How about replaceChild? :) |
| 06:54 | <rniwa> | Ms2ger: LOL. I see what you did there. |
| 07:00 | <Velmont> | Oh what a beautiful moorning~ |
| 07:13 | Ms2ger | writes some tests for WebKit to fail |
| 07:48 | <asmodai> | annevk: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Math/MathJax_testing |
| 08:48 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: http://jamesmckay.net/2012/06/you-can-no-longer-afford-not-to-take-git-seriously/ |
| 08:52 | <annevk> | uhm http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fhtml5boilerplate.com%2F |
| 08:52 | <annevk> | paul_irish: ^^ |
| 08:52 | <Ms2ger> | <!doctype html public "✰" |
| 08:52 | <Ms2ger> | Oh really |
| 08:53 | <Ms2ger> | http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whatwg.org%2Fissues%2Fdata.html |
| 08:53 | <annevk> | HTML is hard |
| 08:54 | <Ms2ger> | Let's go shopping? |
| 08:54 | <annevk> | it's raining outside |
| 08:55 | <Ms2ger> | Sunny here |
| 08:55 | <Ms2ger> | ... for now |
| 08:57 | <Velmont> | You say I'm leaving sunny southern europe to go up to rainy Norway? :-( |
| 08:58 | <annevk> | Velmont: you could stay :) |
| 08:59 | <Velmont> | annevk: And let y'all get the best places at the new office? Neh, I'll pass :] |
| 08:59 | <Ms2ger> | We have an office in Paris if you're interested in working further south? :) |
| 09:00 | <Velmont> | lol ;D |
| 09:02 | <Ms2ger> | (The same is true for other Operians, of course) |
| 09:03 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: are you actually employed these days or just helping out Mozilla recruiting on your personal time? |
| 09:03 | <Ms2ger> | The latter :) |
| 09:09 | <Velmont> | Why does everyone try to brain drain Opera all the time? |
| 09:09 | <Velmont> | What about stealing a bit from the others? |
| 09:10 | <Ms2ger> | We want smart people |
| 09:33 | <Velmont> | MikeSmith: I updated http://w3c-test.org/webappsec/tests/cors/submitted/opera/staging/resources/cors-makeheader.php -- makes it possible to send 2 allow-origin headers in response. For some extra tests for bugs in WebKit and Fx. |
| 09:34 | <Velmont> | MikeSmith: I might update it even more on monday, because I see I'm not checking the case where crossorigin.site.com -> site.com, all the tests are doing site.com -> crossorigin.site.com. Might be some bugs hiding there. |
| 09:35 | <Ms2ger> | Bugs in Gecko? Couldn't be |
| 09:35 | <annevk> | Opera found them first |
| 09:35 | <Ms2ger> | Well played |
| 09:37 | <Ms2ger> | And Opera had the weird throwing-nodes-as-exceptions first? :) |
| 10:40 | <Von_Davidicus> | Why is it that, in HTML5, the contents of a header attribute MUST refer to the ID of a <th> element in the same table, and what can I do to get around that headache? |
| 10:46 | <Ms2ger> | Don't use that attribute if you're going to misuse it |
| 10:47 | <Von_Davidicus> | Well, I gotta use SOMETHING to make the JS on my webpage work--I was using the headers attributes to refer to the IDs of <input> elements. |
| 10:58 | <Von_Davidicus> | I guess I could use the class attribute... *Misses axis, which was another useful info dump attribute* |
| 11:56 | <Ms2ger> | MikeSmith, http://w3c-test.org/framework/ is broken |
| 17:55 | <methuselahah> | where can I find the most detailed html5 javascript documentation for html5 video? |