| 00:00 | <gsnedders> | gavinc: s#and#and/or# :) |
| 00:16 | <gavinc> | gsnedders: good point. |
| 02:17 | <Hixie> | hmm |
| 02:17 | <Hixie> | how the hell do i serialise a method pointer in JS |
| 02:17 | <Hixie> | bummer |
| 05:58 | <Hixie> | annevk: was it taken out again? i thought .append() and co were in, that's why i used them in the examples |
| 05:58 | <annevk> | those are |
| 05:58 | <annevk> | but createElement with multiple arguments is not |
| 05:58 | <Hixie> | ah, ok |
| 06:03 | <annevk> | Lachy: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#errors now uses "name" rather than "type" throughout (IDL has been updated too) |
| 06:07 | <hsivonen> | UA string evangelism makes me sad |
| 06:08 | <hsivonen> | Mozilla added "Mobile" and "Tablet" tokens to give sites something other than "Android" to sniff for. Now we are debating whether B2G has to say "Android" anyway, because the string with Android got evangelized. |
| 06:09 | <annevk> | hmm http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webrtc/2012Jun/ pretty much no involvement from people with some history with API design... |
| 06:09 | <annevk> | does explain http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2012AprJun/0269.html ... |
| 06:09 | <heycam> | I'm not in the mood to read those last 100 mails, tbh |
| 06:09 | <annevk> | me neither |
| 06:10 | <annevk> | maybe I'll read something when they get around to publishing again |
| 06:10 | <heycam> | yeah |
| 06:10 | <heycam> | I must say, the spec seems pretty unreadable to me |
| 06:10 | <heycam> | the formatting |
| 06:10 | <annevk> | it's a mixture of WHATWG HTML plus whatever the new guy is using |
| 06:10 | <annevk> | plus probably some other things |
| 06:12 | <heycam> | I wonder if we should mark stringifiers as not for use unless you really have to |
| 06:12 | <heycam> | to me they seem like they invite author confusion |
| 06:16 | <hsivonen> | heycam: SVG scripts can nest like this <svg><script>foo();<script>bar();</script>baz();</script> thanks to XML-likeness |
| 06:16 | <heycam> | hsivonen, you can do that with HTML too with DOM calls right |
| 06:16 | <hsivonen> | heycam: yes, but then the script wont be parser-inserted |
| 06:17 | <shepazu> | couldn't we simply say that <script> can't nest? |
| 06:17 | <heycam> | hsivonen, is the behaviour for parser inserted nested script elements undefined? |
| 06:18 | <hsivonen> | shepazu: that would be useless without making it impossible for them to nest |
| 06:18 | <heycam> | hsivonen, (beacuse html can't have them?) |
| 06:18 | <hsivonen> | heycam: no |
| 06:18 | <shepazu> | that <script> is not a valid child of <script>, and that any content doesn't execute? |
| 06:18 | <hsivonen> | shepazu, heycam: what I said about the added parser complexity was an aside. Please don't try to fix it by making it worse. |
| 06:19 | <heycam> | lol ok, I had hoped "do the same as HTML" should be making things better |
| 06:19 | <shepazu> | I'm not convinced that this is a real-world problem |
| 06:19 | <hsivonen> | All I need to do is to put the "had async of defer" bit on the stack when now one bit on the tree builder is enough |
| 06:19 | <heycam> | ok, so it wasn't something to be avoided then |
| 06:20 | <hsivonen> | heycam: right |
| 06:20 | <heycam> | btw, what is the behaviour of non-parser inserted nested script elements in html? |
| 06:20 | <hsivonen> | heycam: undefined, which is a spec bug |
| 06:20 | <heycam> | aha |
| 06:20 | <hsivonen> | (browsers disagree, too) |
| 06:20 | <hsivonen> | (though IE10 and WebKit agree) |
| 06:20 | <heycam> | the best kind of spec bug |
| 06:21 | <hsivonen> | but parser-inserted nested script are defined. Yay. |
| 06:21 | <Hixie> | undefined? |
| 06:21 | <heycam> | heh, funny |
| 06:21 | <Hixie> | in which spec? |
| 06:22 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: HTML Living Standard |
| 06:22 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: well, at least at least 3 channel regulars failed to find the definition |
| 06:22 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: what's undefined? i thought the script processing was pretty well-defined by this point |
| 06:22 | <heycam> | not really knowing how any of this works currently, I would just say the textContent of the outer script element is the script that's run |
| 06:22 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: so it's undefined in practice even if you could find the definition |
| 06:23 | <hsivonen> | heycam: and you'd be wrong :-) |
| 06:23 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: sure, but the differnce is that in one case i have to figure out how to fix it to actually define it, and in the other i just have to add a note |
| 06:23 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: so it's an important difference to me :-) |
| 06:23 | <heycam> | hsivonen, not surprised, as it's just something sensible :) |
| 06:23 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: we need two things: |
| 06:23 | <hsivonen> | 1) something that says that upon inserting a DocumentFragment, the whole fragment gets inserted before attempting to execute any of its scripts |
| 06:23 | <Hixie> | (btw, personally i think the way svg-in-html script parsing is defined now is fantastic, as it is simpler than html, and that can imho only be a good thing) |
| 06:24 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: hm, i can believe that behaviour of script insertion with document fragments isn't well-defined |
| 06:24 | <hsivonen> | 2) a definition for the order in which the scripts that got inserted are attempted to execute |
| 06:24 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: since the html text predates dom core being written |
| 06:24 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: k. is there a bug/e-mail on this? |
| 06:25 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: there's a bug about #1 and it has an off-topic comment about #2 |
| 06:26 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: k |
| 06:26 | <jgraham> | heycam: (textContent would be very confusing <script>alert(1); <script>alert(2)</script></script> would alert 2 then 1 then 2 |
| 06:26 | <jgraham> | ) |
| 06:27 | <jgraham> | (happily that isn't what happens) |
| 06:27 | <heycam> | jgraham, forgot to also add: the nested <script> elements would not get executed themselves |
| 06:27 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: oh and for nested scripts, both points need to apply also when inserting a tree of elements without a document fragement wrapper |
| 06:27 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: not even in Opera? |
| 06:27 | <Hixie> | same bug #? |
| 06:28 | <Hixie> | 17543? |
| 06:28 | <jgraham> | heycam: It would be very confusing not to run some scripts depending on their ancestors |
| 06:29 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: I'm not sure what happens in Opera. iirc *in SVG* that case works OK, but there might be that bug if you nest scripts in HTML |
| 06:29 | <heycam> | (disagree, especially if the rule is "if there's an ancestor <script> it doesn't run") |
| 06:30 | <heycam> | (sounds like it's moot anyway tho) |
| 06:30 | <jgraham> | heycam: Pretty much, everyone agrees on that much behaviour at least |
| 06:30 | <annevk> | Hixie: the plan is to add hooks to "DOM" for "elements inserted" and "elements removed" which can be used by HTML to then do stuff |
| 06:30 | <Hixie> | and 17529 i guess |
| 06:30 | <Hixie> | annevk: k |
| 06:30 | <annevk> | Hixie: they're both plural because the idea is that you can atomically insert and remove more than one element |
| 06:31 | <heycam> | annevk, sorry for hammering on about the event handler stuff again, my small brain forgets previous conversations about things like that :) |
| 06:31 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Doesn't XHTML give you parser-inserted nested scripts? |
| 06:31 | <annevk> | heycam: no worries |
| 06:31 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: yes |
| 06:31 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17529 |
| 06:32 | <jgraham> | I guess that is another case to write tests for |
| 06:33 | <jgraham> | The platform is way too complicated. Every time you think "I should test this simple thing" you realise there are multiple contexts in which you need to test it, often with different behaviour |
| 06:35 | <jgraham> | Anyway, time to cycle to the office (in the sunshine!), I guess |
| 06:35 | <annevk> | Sweden summertime ftw |
| 06:36 | <Hixie> | i cycle to work every day i go to work... California time ftw :-P |
| 06:48 | <AryehGregor> | I now live in a place where it's too hot to bike in the summer, too rainy to bike in the winter, and too hilly to bike ever. \o/ |
| 06:48 | <AryehGregor> | (doesn't bother me, I don't bike anyway) |
| 07:09 | <jgraham> | annevk: It's OK it's forecast to rain next week |
| 07:10 | <annevk> | aaah |
| 07:10 | <jgraham> | so you will miss the authentic Swedish summer experience |
| 07:10 | <annevk> | I don't feel too bad about that I think |
| 08:13 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, once I figure out what you guys need me to do :) |
| 08:13 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: so in principle you're okay with merging and all? |
| 08:14 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: I guess maybe lack of input should be considered as "okay" but this is not a mailing list :p |
| 08:14 | <Ms2ger> | Yes, of course |
| 08:14 | <annevk> | kk |
| 08:14 | <annevk> | I have no insight in the line of thinking of robots unfortunately |
| 08:15 | <Ms2ger> | :D |
| 08:25 | <odinho> | 21:43 < Ms2ger> annevk, you're wrong :) |
| 08:25 | <odinho> | Where is the context for all of this? :S |
| 08:25 | <odinho> | If anywhere at all :] |
| 08:25 | <Ms2ger> | Private email |
| 08:25 | <odinho> | Ah, okay, so not then. |
| 08:26 | <Ms2ger> | He said not-nice things about Mercurial |
| 08:26 | <odinho> | Ms2ger: I can do that too. :] |
| 08:26 | Ms2ger | curses Operians |
| 08:27 | <annevk> | the context is a discussion with berjon about merging ReSpec and Anolis bibref and xref databases |
| 08:31 | jgraham | has spent quite a lot of the morning trying to help various people with git. But at least helping people with git doesn't start "learn mq". |
| 08:32 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: can you review the commit I just made? |
| 08:32 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: don't want Hixie to run into issues when he starts fixing the HTML side |
| 08:33 | <annevk> | jgraham: :) |
| 08:33 | annevk | is promoting git in the absence of any experience with it |
| 08:33 | <annevk> | I guess at some point we should move the specs over |
| 08:33 | <annevk> | to github |
| 08:33 | <annevk> | so everyone can do pull requests and other fancy things |
| 08:34 | <Ms2ger> | Whoa |
| 08:34 | <Ms2ger> | Error names |
| 08:35 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, s#and/or#or# |
| 08:35 | <annevk> | really? |
| 08:35 | <annevk> | because it's "and" for the replace stuff |
| 08:35 | <Ms2ger> | and/or is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord |
| 08:36 | <odinho> | Git was my first VCS. Right around the time Linus unveiled his first plumbing layer Git, I was in the market for a VCS. So I took it, warts and all. Used cogito a bit, but that was eventually merged into Git - and today it's really nice and helpful. :-) |
| 08:36 | Ms2ger | doesn't like it much either |
| 08:36 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: which Lord though? |
| 08:36 | <odinho> | Ms2ger: Lord Voldemort? |
| 08:36 | <Ms2ger> | odinho++ |
| 08:36 | <annevk> | odinho: dude, cannot mention his name |
| 08:36 | <Ms2ger> | odinho, also, that's called "Stockholm syndrome" |
| 08:36 | <odinho> | annevk: fsck, didn't remember. |
| 08:38 | <annevk> | oh well, fixed |
| 08:39 | <Ms2ger> | Thanks :) |
| 08:47 | <annevk> | ooh, no logs |
| 08:54 | <Ms2ger> | http://logbot.glob.com.au/ has logs |
| 09:24 | <annevk> | Fullscreen thread is full of talk |
| 09:25 | <MikeSmith> | an no walk? |
| 09:26 | <annevk> | right, except for fantasai, although the condescending "in the CSS WG we do..." she could have left out I think |
| 09:27 | <MikeSmith> | hahaha |
| 09:28 | <MikeSmith> | "in NN WG, we have a batshit insane way of doing many things" |
| 09:28 | <MikeSmith> | just FYI |
| 09:40 | <matjas> | I’d like to get a few lines of CSS added to http://www.whatwg.org/style/specification — who do I have to ask? |
| 09:41 | <matjas> | basically, this is all it takes to make a spec Responsive™: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=zNJV7VSF |
| 09:41 | <matjas> | for an example, try http://mathias.html5.org/specs/web-ecmascript/ on a small viewport |
| 09:43 | <odinho> | Hmm. Should make usercss easy to have on mobile phones. I'd like to tweak quite a few sites to have some responsive stuff thrown in. |
| 09:44 | <zcorpan> | matjas: wouldn't that break with the margin boxes in the html spec? |
| 09:45 | <matjas> | zcorpan: possibly, but i’m sure it can be done without any breakage |
| 09:47 | <zcorpan> | matjas: why have different padding above/below the breakpoint? |
| 09:47 | <matjas> | zcorpan: try it, it looks better / is more readable on small screens |
| 09:48 | <matjas> | (IMHO) |
| 09:48 | <zcorpan> | it looks bad when width is 60em+1px :-P |
| 09:49 | <zcorpan> | anyway, i guess Hixie is the one to ask |
| 09:50 | <zcorpan> | though it's not unusual for specs to just have local overrides |
| 09:57 | <matjas> | Hixie: please responsify the spec-reading experience in the mobile workspace, increasing the end users’s social mindshare by leveraging Web 3.0 CSS5 Media Queries |
| 09:58 | <odinho> | matjas: WAT, don't speak like that. |
| 10:00 | <matjas> | odinho: sorry, i got caught up in the moment |
| 10:01 | <odinho> | matjas: A big corporate faceless PR/hype/buzzword-over-substance moment? |
| 10:01 | <matjas> | I can’t believe I forgot to mention SEO :'( |
| 10:20 | <annevk> | matjas: probably best to email or file a bug |
| 10:21 | <annevk> | matjas: canAskHixieOnIRC = Hixie.around() && !Hixie.busy() |
| 10:21 | <matjas> | hah |
| 10:24 | <annevk> | what is the obj.is(Node) discussion about? And why is it only a problem for DOM? |
| 10:24 | <annevk> | I'm missing something... |
| 10:25 | <Ms2ger> | Cross-window instanceof? |
| 10:29 | <annevk> | why can't we make instanceof cross-window? |
| 10:29 | <Ms2ger> | Dunno |
| 10:29 | <annevk> | also |
| 10:30 | <annevk> | then this isn't just the dom, but also applies to XMLHttpRequest, Worker, EventSource, etc. no? |
| 10:31 | <Ms2ger> | Presumably obj.is(XMLHttpRequest) would be expected to work too |
| 10:46 | <jgraham> | That's why people preferred Node.isInterface(obj) or whatever it was |
| 10:48 | <jgraham> | But it does seem a bit silly to have to implement it on all objects rather than having an operator |
| 10:48 | <jgraham> | Well all interface objects |
| 10:49 | <annevk> | not sure why an interface object should be different from other javascript objects really |
| 10:49 | <annevk> | interface is just a convenience when writing specs |
| 10:50 | <jgraham> | Right, you would expect otherWindow.Object.isInterface({}) to work as well, I guess |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | http://annevankesteren.nl/2012/06/notifications |
| 12:26 | <annevk> | jgraham: chaals' argument for iconAlt is somewhat compelling actually |
| 12:27 | <charl> | annevk: interesting post but quite honestly i don't get this part: perm == "granted" ? true : false |
| 12:27 | <charl> | so you are basically saying "if true then true, if false then false" |
| 12:28 | <charl> | you test against a boolean to produce exactly the same boolean |
| 12:28 | <annevk> | I will drop the ? true : false and then go into hiding :) |
| 12:28 | <charl> | lol |
| 12:29 | <annevk> | thanks |
| 12:29 | <charl> | np! |
| 12:30 | <jgraham> | annevk: I guess |
| 12:31 | <annevk> | I wish hober, jonlee|afk, and John would chime in |
| 12:31 | <annevk> | but sleep |
| 12:34 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm. Were my reflection tests ever actually approved? |
| 12:34 | <AryehGregor> | I thought they were supposed to be at some point by default. |
| 12:35 | <AryehGregor> | But they're wrong by now, because Hixie keeps changing the spec. :( |
| 12:36 | jgraham | is sort of ignoreing the whole approved/unapproved thing |
| 12:36 | <annevk> | it was a bullshit concept to begin with |
| 12:37 | <AryehGregor> | Well, I wouldn't go that far. |
| 12:37 | <annevk> | it helps forcing review somewhat of badly written tests |
| 12:38 | <annevk> | other than that I don't really see the point of moving tests around and making them hard to find |
| 12:41 | <AryehGregor> | We want a "your browser passes X% of tests" kind of thing, for marketing purposes, and don't want Joe Q. Random (or, more likely, a browser vendor) to submit garbage tests to distort it. |
| 12:41 | <annevk> | we all know it's Microsoft |
| 12:42 | <AryehGregor> | Well, yeah. |
| 12:43 | <AryehGregor> | So: I guess I should write a rant yelling at public-css-testsuite for imposing stupid and onerous requirements on test submitters only after I've submitted all my tests, not before. |
| 12:44 | <AryehGregor> | Preferably once they're approved. |
| 12:44 | <jgraham> | It doesn't really stop that |
| 12:44 | <jgraham> | See also the CSS 2.1 outline tests (or something) |
| 12:44 | <AryehGregor> | No, but it means that if someone notices, you can revoke the approval at that point. |
| 12:45 | <jgraham> | The tests I'm thinking of were all the same but for different colours |
| 12:45 | <annevk> | also written by Microsoft |
| 12:45 | <jgraham> | would have red outlines work, but blue ones fail? |
| 12:46 | <Ms2ger> | Maybe! |
| 12:46 | <AryehGregor> | And did they happen to test a trivial feature that IE supported but no one else did? |
| 12:46 | <annevk> | philosoraptor having a field day |
| 12:46 | <AryehGregor> | I'm all in favor of testing every possible test color, but only if it's all in one test file. |
| 12:46 | <AryehGregor> | 2^24 tests isn't a lot by the standards of today's CPUs, right? |
| 12:46 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm, but if you add alpha . . . |
| 12:47 | <jgraham> | Well Opera doesn't support it. Which is a bug, but not 200 tests worth of bug (compared to the rest of the CSS testsuite) |
| 12:47 | <AryehGregor> | Isn't the CSS 2.1 test suite actually pretty big? |
| 12:47 | <jgraham> | Not all that big |
| 12:48 | <Ms2ger> | 9000 tests or so? |
| 12:49 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, that's nothing. |
| 12:49 | <AryehGregor> | I wrote a few hundred reftests just for transforms. |
| 12:49 | <AryehGregor> | And, of course, a couple of JS files that test like a billion things. |
| 12:49 | <Ms2ger> | Compared to the 650 000 tests I imported into m-c this morning... |
| 12:50 | <smaug____> | number of tests doesn't mean much |
| 12:50 | <smaug____> | some tests may test several things |
| 12:50 | <smaug____> | and many tests may test the same thing |
| 12:50 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, that's only a few files, though. |
| 12:50 | <AryehGregor> | Granted, thousands of LOC. |
| 12:51 | <Ms2ger> | True |
| 12:51 | <smaug____> | hsivonen: new patch uploaded |
| 12:51 | <Ms2ger> | Two Mozillians chatting doesn't mean this is #developers, smaug____ :) |
| 12:52 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, see, I'm not the only one! |
| 12:52 | <smaug____> | Ms2ger: oop, wrong tab :) |
| 12:52 | <smaug____> | oops |
| 13:11 | <odinho> | You keep doing that :P We just got ice cream out in the sun by the lake here. It was A+. |
| 13:12 | Ms2ger | kicks odinho |
| 13:20 | <annevk> | aah, we had ice-cream in the canteen |
| 13:21 | <annevk> | technically I guess it was the living room area on the other side |
| 13:22 | <jgraham> | It's all one room |
| 13:22 | <jgraham> | We aren't pretentious enough to subdivide |
| 13:24 | <annevk> | just enough to correct me? :p |
| 13:24 | <odinho> | annevk: So better at HQ then. :] Was quite pictoresque. |
| 13:26 | <jgraham> | But we have nicer chairs :p |
| 13:26 | <Ms2ger> | You should donate them to the HTMLWG |
| 13:27 | <annevk> | :) |
| 13:59 | <hsivonen> | Is Glenn Adams an Editorial Assistant now? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17563 |
| 14:01 | <Ms2ger> | Maybe he could start with editing the spec he's supposed to edit |
| 14:01 | <hsivonen> | (of course, trying to ban the use of canvas for decoration would be an exercise in futility, so I don't disagree with dismissing the bug) |
| 14:02 | <annevk> | hmm URLs |
| 14:14 | <annevk> | so is it better to have a tokenizer like this http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/URL#Parsing |
| 14:16 | <annevk> | or should the language be "split X on the first ":" if any and let (A, B) be the result" "if A starts with a character in the range RR and the remaining characters are in the range OO set scheme to A and X to B" "otherwise relative steps here..." |
| 14:17 | <annevk> | that is more how the spec is now |
| 14:39 | <annevk> | poor hober http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/25563333689/bad-luck-brian-thought-html-wg-meetings-were-bad |
| 14:47 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 14:48 | <odinho> | :/ |
| 15:54 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 15:55 | <Ms2ger> | Morning |
| 16:03 | <MikeSmith> | good 01:05am, crime partners! |
| 16:04 | MikeSmith | is enjoying participation in the usual weekly round of back-to-back Thursday night telcons |
| 16:05 | <MikeSmith> | things could be worse; at least my boss didn't make me attend the Tracking Protection WG f2f |
| 16:08 | <odinho> | :P |
| 16:21 | <hober> | MikeSmith: very funny :) |
| 16:22 | <Ms2ger> | Poor hober :) |
| 16:22 | <MikeSmith> | I was just speaking hypothetically! |