| 06:51 | <AryehGregor> | "It almost seems to me that nobody cares over here what the W3C document actually says, as there is that other "more helpful" version. In which case I wonder why it's published at all?" |
| 06:52 | <AryehGregor> | . . . I guess it's probably best not to respond to that. |
| 06:53 | AryehGregor | cries when he reads stuff like http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jul/0267.html that adds ever more declarative special cases instead of writing imperatively |
| 06:54 | <annevk> | you mean the calc() feature itself? |
| 06:54 | <AryehGregor> | I mean basically all of CSS. |
| 06:55 | <AryehGregor> | Which currently consists of lots of declarative requirements scattered across a zillion specs with all interactions undefined unless someone specifically points them out. |
| 06:55 | <annevk> | I saw a somewhat plausible answer to why adding imperative stuff to CSS would be problematic |
| 06:55 | <annevk> | ooh |
| 06:55 | <annevk> | you mean spec-wise |
| 06:55 | <AryehGregor> | Right. |
| 06:55 | <annevk> | yeah dunno about that |
| 06:55 | <AryehGregor> | For that matter, a lot of the terminology is undefined too -- specs will refer to things like "the element's border box" when elements can have any number of border boxes from zero and up. |
| 06:56 | <annevk> | uhuh |
| 06:56 | <annevk> | it's kind of crazy really |
| 06:56 | <AryehGregor> | Clearly it's harder to write imperatively than DOM stuff, because JavaScript is imperative and CSS is declarative. |
| 06:56 | <AryehGregor> | But still. |
| 06:56 | <annevk> | it's hard to write because CSS is hard |
| 06:56 | <annevk> | so instead of defining CSS they describe it which is a little less hard |
| 06:56 | <annevk> | but then you run into problems soon enough |
| 06:57 | <AryehGregor> | I don't think CSS is inherently any harder than, say, the HTML parser, or editing. |
| 06:57 | <AryehGregor> | It's a lot harder than DOM Core, yes, but that's not saying much. |
| 06:58 | <annevk> | dunno, CSS is big |
| 06:58 | <AryehGregor> | Bigger than HTML? |
| 06:58 | <AryehGregor> | One person did that. :) |
| 06:58 | <annevk> | I think CSS is bigger and definitely more complex |
| 06:59 | <annevk> | but I have hopes of someone fixing it still :) |
| 06:59 | <AryehGregor> | Really? The WHATWG spec is a lot bigger than all CSS specs combined. |
| 06:59 | <AryehGregor> | Although that's partly because it actually specifies all details, obviously. |
| 06:59 | <annevk> | all CSS specs? |
| 06:59 | <annevk> | including the object model and such? |
| 07:00 | <AryehGregor> | I'm pretty sure. |
| 07:00 | <AryehGregor> | I think I once counted using wget and wc -l. |
| 07:00 | <AryehGregor> | Retrieving all the CSS specs from the Current Work page. |
| 07:00 | <AryehGregor> | CSS2.1 is the only one of appreciable size. (Guess what: co-edited by Hixie.) |
| 07:00 | <annevk> | CSS 2.1 alone is half of HTML |
| 07:01 | <AryehGregor> | Really? |
| 07:01 | <annevk> | I reckon if you rewrite that proper style it will be bigger |
| 07:01 | <annevk> | the PDF is 487 pages |
| 07:02 | <zcorpan> | AryehGregor: annevk: did you see http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120711#l-533 ? |
| 07:02 | <annevk> | and CSS 2.1 does not include the object model and such |
| 07:02 | <AryehGregor> | zcorpan, no, what does it do? |
| 07:03 | <zcorpan> | AryehGregor: checks http://www.w3.org/community/reports/reqs/ |
| 07:04 | <annevk> | zcorpan: that's kind of neat, maybe get ij to do something with it? |
| 07:07 | <zcorpan> | i'm not sure a bookmarklet is the best way to implement it, maybe something that can be run from the command line is better so editors can run it at the same time as anolis |
| 07:08 | <zcorpan> | i checked yesterday and it finds some errors in Fullscreen and HTML Editing APIs |
| 07:08 | <annevk> | ideally it's some kind of service that just emails you the violations |
| 07:09 | <zcorpan> | or files a bug maybe? |
| 07:09 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 07:09 | <annevk> | would be cool for the markup validator too |
| 07:10 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: ^ |
| 07:10 | <MikeSmith> | what would be cool for the validator? |
| 07:10 | <zcorpan> | to email or file bug when your page doesn't validate anymore |
| 07:11 | <MikeSmith> | oh |
| 07:13 | <zcorpan> | but i guess that's possible to implement with v.nu's existing api |
| 07:13 | <zcorpan> | with a simple script |
| 07:13 | <zcorpan> | just file-upload to v.nu after running anolis and if it gives errors, file a bug |
| 07:35 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: you want the validator to file bugs in the W3C bugzilla? |
| 07:36 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: yeah. except i realized that's possible already without more code in v.nu |
| 07:37 | <hsivonen> | I see |
| 08:07 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: zcorpan: if you want to allow indexing of W3C Bugzilla https://www.w3.org/robots.txt will need to be modified (note https) |
| 08:08 | <MikeSmith> | ah yeah |
| 08:38 | <hsivonen> | https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17693 someone missed the memo on <ins> and <del> (which became synonyms for <u> and <s> since it's really hard to do what Word does) |
| 09:04 | <smaug____> | Uh, http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileAPI/#dfn-autoRevoke :/ |
| 09:05 | <smaug____> | no arun here |
| 09:32 | <zcorpan> | smaug____: file a bug? |
| 09:33 | <smaug____> | perhaps I should discuss with arun first |
| 09:33 | <smaug____> | though, I could file a bug to remove "stable state" concept from HTML :) |
| 09:35 | <zcorpan> | what's wrong with stable state? |
| 09:39 | <smaug____> | zcorpan: it is a weird concept |
| 09:39 | <smaug____> | it is not really detectable from JS |
| 09:39 | <zcorpan> | what do you suggest instead for algorithms that currently use it? |
| 09:39 | <zcorpan> | queue a task? |
| 09:40 | <smaug____> | that is often a possible choice |
| 09:40 | <smaug____> | There is also microtask |
| 09:41 | <smaug____> | microtask was added because stable state and end-of-task are so vague |
| 09:41 | <zcorpan> | have a link to microtask? |
| 09:42 | <smaug____> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#perform-a-microtask-checkpoint |
| 09:42 | <smaug____> | for some odd reason the spec talks only about mutation observers |
| 09:44 | <zcorpan> | thanks |
| 09:55 | <annevk> | is that revoking language even correct? |
| 09:56 | <annevk> | you only want it to be revoked after you have used the URL somehow |
| 09:56 | <annevk> | that file API spec is turning into a mess |
| 09:59 | <smaug____> | why should it say anything about using the URL ? |
| 10:03 | <annevk> | if you just create it, then wait a while before using it (waiting on some event) it would already be revoked |
| 10:03 | <annevk> | that seems kind of pointless |
| 10:05 | <zcorpan> | yeah the autorevoke thing only allows the url to be referenced in the same script. and many things that fetch urls are themselves async, like e.g. <img src> |
| 10:15 | <zcorpan> | should websocket binary messages allow scripts to read the message in a streaming fashion while it's being received, like with xhr? |
| 10:15 | <zcorpan> | right now the message event is only fired once the whole message has been received, afaict |
| 10:17 | <annevk> | pretty much nothing in XHR is streaming fwiw |
| 10:17 | <annevk> | only responseText at the moment |
| 10:17 | <annevk> | maybe also responseType = "text" |
| 10:35 | <zcorpan> | annevk: can't you get the partial data as blob or arraybuffer? |
| 10:36 | <annevk> | zcorpan: I don't really see how |
| 10:36 | <annevk> | we thought of allowing that at some point |
| 10:37 | <annevk> | with "I don't really see how" I mean that the current spec doesn't do it |
| 10:37 | <annevk> | see http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#the-response-attribute |
| 10:38 | <zcorpan> | ah. i thought it wasn't null while LOADING |
| 10:40 | <zcorpan> | wouldn't it work to return a blob early and have it act like a file that loads slowly? |
| 10:41 | <zcorpan> | or maybe something different makes more sense for streaming use cases |
| 10:49 | <annevk> | yeah that would work |
| 10:49 | <annevk> | I think implementors had some concerns |
| 10:50 | <annevk> | but we can still make that work in the future |
| 10:52 | <annevk> | time to see the outside world |
| 11:06 | <Ms2ger> | Pff |
| 11:06 | <Ms2ger> | The outside world is overrated |
| 11:23 | <hsivonen> | hmm. does the new GWT ingest IDL from Gecko and WebKit or really C++? |
| 11:23 | <hsivonen> | if it really eats C++, that would be a failure for IDL |
| 11:25 | <smaug____> | hsivonen: link? |
| 11:27 | <hsivonen> | smaug____: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOf27ez_Hvg&feature=plcp |
| 11:27 | <hsivonen> | (not really a time-efficient reference) |
| 13:52 | <zcorpan_> | isn't it awesome when people talk in XML tags on mailing lists and suggest to replace HTML+CSS with XML+XSL? |
| 15:02 | <matjas> | hsivonen: re: 404 page on <audio> testbed — http://twitter.com/yvg/status/223346356088094721 |
| 15:11 | <miketaylr> | matjas: pfffffffffft |
| 15:15 | <smaug____> | zewt: an event listener can't know if something else runs before the next stable state |
| 15:15 | <smaug____> | (just an example) |
| 15:15 | <smaug____> | also, the same task may for example dispatch several events |
| 16:33 | <hsivonen> | matjas: thanks |
| 16:58 | gsnedders | contemplates starting a new cross-browser JS testsuite, again |
| 17:02 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders, at least join us at the W3C :) |
| 17:25 | <sedovsek> | Hey, Is there any alternative for document.webkitHidden on iOs and Android devices? |
| 17:25 | <Hixie> | what does it do? |
| 17:30 | <sedovsek> | https://developers.google.com/chrome/whitepapers/pagevisibility |
| 17:30 | <sedovsek> | Here are some examples. |
| 18:13 | <matjas> | sedovsek (if you read the logs): http://mths.be/visibility demonstrates how you can fall back to focus/blur |
| 18:16 | <bencc> | are svg animations standard in html5? |
| 18:17 | <shepazu> | bencc: technically, because SVG animations (SMIL) are part of SVG 1.1, which is the spec that HTML5 references, they are "standard"… but IE doesn't support them, and HTML does strictly require full support for SVG 1.1 |
| 18:19 | <bencc> | shepazu: it did support it in the past I think |
| 18:19 | <shepazu> | bencc: nope |
| 18:19 | <bencc> | shepazu: do you know if there are plans to support SMIL in IE10 or later? |
| 18:19 | <shepazu> | no plans for IE10 |
| 18:20 | <bencc> | shepazu: that's sad :( |
| 18:20 | <shepazu> | I agree |
| 18:20 | <shepazu> | they are focusing on CSS animations, which you should be able to use with SVG |
| 18:20 | <shepazu> | I think that's all still being worked out, though |
| 18:21 | <bencc> | shepazu: ok |
| 18:21 | <bencc> | shepazu: can I do feature detection for beginElement or animate? |
| 18:21 | <shepazu> | bencc: you should think about using FakeSMIL |
| 18:22 | <shepazu> | it's a script lib shim that handles most of SMIL in SVG for IE |
| 18:22 | <bencc> | cool. this? http://fakesmil.blogspot.co.il/ |
| 18:22 | <Hixie> | wow, not counting the responsive images threads and not counting e-mails about adding new features, i'm down to just about 250 e-mails! |
| 18:22 | <shepazu> | yeah |
| 18:22 | <Hixie> | (including those two categories, 1200 e-mails.) |
| 18:23 | <Hixie> | (also including bugs: 1700 e-mails.) |
| 18:23 | <shepazu> | bencc: it's a bit old, but it still works |
| 18:24 | <shepazu> | it's not perfect, but it does the job for most things |
| 18:26 | <bencc> | shepazu: I've just tried it and I still get the error |
| 18:26 | <shepazu> | bencc: what error? |
| 18:26 | <bencc> | shepazu: I'm adding the animate element dynamically so I'm not sure if the script cover this use case |
| 18:26 | <shepazu> | it should |
| 18:26 | <bencc> | Object doesn't support property or method 'beginElement' |
| 18:28 | <shepazu> | bencc: yeah, it's not going to add that support if you're doing feature detection |
| 18:28 | <shepazu> | bencc: you have a jsfiddle? |
| 18:29 | <bencc> | shepazu: not yet http://dpaste.com/769928/ |
| 18:29 | <bencc> | shepazu: what do you mean? I'm not doing feature detection |
| 18:29 | <shepazu> | ok |
| 18:29 | <bencc> | shepazu: I just included the script |
| 18:30 | <shepazu> | bencc: that snippet doesn't include fakesmil... |
| 18:30 | <bencc> | shepazu: I thought it should just work |
| 18:31 | <shepazu> | bencc: I can't debug if I don't have an example that should work... |
| 18:31 | <bencc> | shepazu: sure, I'll make one |
| 18:38 | <bencc> | shepazu: this is without smil http://jsfiddle.net/DgMDV/1/ |
| 18:38 | <bencc> | shepazu: works in FF but not in IE9 |
| 18:38 | <bencc> | shepazu: now trying to add smil but I'm not sure how to use it |
| 18:38 | <bencc> | I mean fakesmil |
| 18:39 | <shepazu> | http://leunen.me/fakesmile/faq.html#dev |
| 18:43 | <bencc> | shepazu: I've added the script to the jsfiddle but there must be something more I need to do |
| 18:43 | <shepazu> | bencc: let me make a simple example |
| 18:43 | <shepazu> | it might take me a few minutes |
| 18:44 | <bencc> | thanks! |
| 18:48 | <Hixie> | hmm, i wonder if there's a way to make bugzilla search results more computer-readable |
| 18:53 | <bencc> | shepazu: looks like there is a more recent version here: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~smilteam/smil/MAIN/view/head:/smil.user.js |
| 19:00 | <shepazu> | bencc: I just realized I can't test it… I'm on a mac, and I don't have a browser that doesn't support SMIL :( |
| 19:00 | <bencc> | shepazu: I can |
| 19:00 | <bencc> | the example will be useful in any case |
| 19:07 | <bencc> | shepazu: I'm trying to add it with <svg ...><script type="text/ecmascript" xlink:href="smil.user.js"/>...</svg> but I'm not sure if it is loaded |
| 19:09 | <MikeSmith> | bencc: you serving it with an XML mime type? |
| 19:10 | <bencc> | MikeSmith: no |
| 19:11 | <bencc> | MikeSmith: I don't know how to use it |
| 19:12 | <MikeSmith> | bencc: I think what you're trying to do won't work unless you serve it with an XML mime type |
| 19:12 | <MikeSmith> | but I dunno really |
| 19:12 | <MikeSmith> | shepazu knows better than me |
| 19:13 | <bencc> | ok |
| 19:17 | <shepazu> | bencc: my suggestion is to google uses of fakesmil, and find an example that works for you |
| 19:18 | <bencc> | shepazu: I tried but can't find how to dynamically include it |
| 20:21 | <MikeSmith> | hmm JSON-LD |
| 22:18 | <loincloth> | what what |
| 23:06 | <zewt> | cool, "new" paypal page broke the login form in some weird way |
| 23:08 | <zewt> | haha and they use a position: absolute block hovering on top of the input form instead of @placeholder, and don't bother turning off pointer-events, so when i click the input, it randomly selects the placeholder instead of the input |
| 23:08 | <zewt> | it's always amazing when the highest-profile pages on the internet screw up so badly |
| 23:09 | <TabAtkins_> | yay! |
| 23:10 | <hober> | s/amazing/sadly unsurprising/ |
| 23:10 | <zewt> | i was trying to be a *little* generous |
| 23:11 | <zewt> | okay I guess I wan't :) |
| 23:11 | <zewt> | also wasn't |
| 23:13 | <zewt> | (somehow having a simple login form break autocompletion twice and then select the word "address" three times makes me feel ungenerous) |