| 00:03 | <zewt> | i've yelled at the jabber folk for their specs being a huge mass of "should" and "may" |
| 00:03 | <zewt> | total nightmare to do anything with |
| 00:05 | <zewt> | found their responsiveness to spec issues to be near-zero so i stopped bothering |
| 00:05 | <Hixie> | gavinc: "jabber:" isn't "distributed extensibility" (e.g. using dns), it's "landgrab namespacing" (what i advocate) |
| 00:06 | <zewt> | (seemed like a dead project, really, which is probably pretty much what xmpp is) |
| 00:08 | <gavinc> | Hixie: are we talking about the same thing? Jabber uses XML Namespaces |
| 00:09 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie's talking about the url protocol. |
| 00:09 | <gavinc> | aaaaahhh |
| 00:09 | <gavinc> | thank you :D |
| 00:10 | <Hixie> | actually you're both wrong :-) |
| 00:10 | <Hixie> | i'm talking about the url they use in their namespaces |
| 00:10 | <TabAtkins> | Oh! |
| 00:10 | <gavinc> | Oh! |
| 00:10 | <Hixie> | e.g. xmlns="jabber:client" |
| 00:10 | <TabAtkins> | JYNX |
| 00:11 | <Hixie> | which is pretty much exactly what i'd advocate, but nonetheless completely misses the point of distributed extensibility |
| 00:11 | <TabAtkins> | Or "jinx", rather. |
| 00:11 | <TabAtkins> | They're still going too far, imo. Their ns should just be "jabber". |
| 00:12 | <Hixie> | well they don't really need namespaces at all, imho |
| 00:12 | <Hixie> | but that's another story |
| 00:12 | <TabAtkins> | Sure. |
| 00:12 | <Hixie> | (using xml for a stream-orientated protocol is pretty nutty) |
| 00:12 | <zewt> | there are a ton of namespaces in xmpp, though, not just those |
| 00:19 | <Hixie> | in other news, this table has had me as its bitch all day and i have only finally defeated it. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#autofill-field |
| 00:21 | <Hixie> | btw if there are any chrome qa people around who want something to do, the "M" in the "Mlle" example in that table is vertically aligned incorrectly |
| 00:21 | <Hixie> | i've been unable to determine why, but haven't looked closely |
| 01:03 | <jamesr_> | Hixie, what platform are you seeing bad alignment on? |
| 01:03 | <jamesr_> | you mean the "M<sup>lle</sup?" entry, right? |
| 01:11 | <Hixie> | jamesr_: mac and yes |
| 01:11 | <Hixie> | jamesr_: dev branch chrome |
| 01:13 | <jamesr_> | ah i see it now - it's a bit lower than it should be, right? |
| 01:55 | <gavinc> | ugh, balancing change/new features and doing what already works is very annoying. |
| 06:35 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: I wonder if the < 1 validations per second data you're seeing is due to the server hardware |
| 06:36 | <MikeSmith> | I'm seeing more like 1.9 validations per second |
| 06:41 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: unlikely. e.g. validating the front page of my site takes 44 milliseconds |
| 06:41 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: and the server is configured for concurrency |
| 06:42 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 06:42 | <hsivonen> | also, the CPU load is very low |
| 06:43 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: well we have some fairly beefy hardware behind the W3C service, and the data is pretty consistent across the majority of the hosts |
| 06:43 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: OK |
| 06:43 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, the W3C stats show those hosts consistently doing about 1.9 validations per second |
| 06:44 | <MikeSmith> | based on roughly 115,000 validations so for |
| 06:44 | <MikeSmith> | 0.71 days |
| 06:45 | <hsivonen> | ok |
| 06:46 | <hsivonen> | the *completely* unused features so far: XHTML output, SVG schema, custom Schematron |
| 06:48 | <MikeSmith> | yeah that's as expected I guess |
| 06:48 | <hsivonen> | I expected someone to validate an occasional SVG file |
| 06:48 | <hsivonen> | I expected the legacy XHTML+SVG+MathML schema to be used less than the SVG schema |
| 06:49 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 06:49 | <shepazu> | I'm surprised that nobody's tried to validate SVG… is that what you're saying? |
| 06:49 | <hsivonen> | as for HTML vs. XML input, HTML is more than 99% |
| 06:49 | <hsivonen> | (Occupy XML) |
| 06:49 | <hsivonen> | shepazu: yes |
| 06:49 | <shepazu> | huh! |
| 06:49 | <MikeSmith> | shepazu: raw data is here: http://validator.nu/stats.html |
| 06:50 | <hsivonen> | and http://html5.validator.nu/stats.html |
| 06:50 | <shepazu> | oh, I believe you… I just went for years without an SVG validator, I never got in the habit myself (I just used XML validation when needed) |
| 06:51 | <shepazu> | 9K validations doesn't seem like much… what time period, out of curiosity? |
| 06:52 | <hsivonen> | shepazu: see "Uptime in days" (which is < 1) |
| 06:53 | <shepazu> | oh |
| 07:24 | <hsivonen> | Underspecified feature request is underspecified: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18439 |
| 07:32 | <rniwa> | hsivonen: i can't even comprehend that sentence :( |
| 07:32 | <rniwa> | that is… the bug title. |
| 07:57 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: I don't know if you noticed yet but the settings for the filter feature of http://validator.keegan.st/ are persistent |
| 07:59 | <MikeSmith> | as in, once you filter out a certain class of errors, it's going to filter those out for you automatically from then on |
| 08:04 | <hsivonen> | I should pay more attention to the validator diagnostics. V.nu has been crashing due to an NPE that MikeSmith fixed over a month ago, because I had failed to redeploy after the fix |
| 08:04 | <MikeSmith> | damn |
| 08:04 | <MikeSmith> | sorry man |
| 10:04 | <hoolter1> | are opening and closing <html> tags required? |
| 10:05 | <hoolter1> | or are they implicit? |
| 10:06 | <jgraham> | Impolicit |
| 10:06 | <jgraham> | *Implicit |
| 10:06 | <hoolter1> | jgraham: cool. |
| 10:07 | <hoolter1> | jgraham: but then how can one specify doc language? |
| 10:07 | <hoolter1> | jgraham: any way? |
| 10:09 | <hoolter1> | iis it possible to read a file that your user DnD'd, then have the user open said file in, say, notepad, modify + save the file, and then for you to read the new changes without the user having to re-DnD the file again? |
| 10:30 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: it was my fault I didn't pay attention to diagnostics. the HTTP client had spammed me enough that it had taught me not to take the log4j emails too seriously :-( |
| 10:30 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I guess I should upgrade to HttpClient 4.1 |
| 10:30 | <hsivonen> | turns out the API has changed |
| 10:31 | <hsivonen> | not just a matter of changing package names |
| 10:48 | <AryehGregor> | hoolter, "doc language"? |
| 10:49 | <AryehGregor> | hoolter, for the latter question -- probably not. That sounds like it would be a security vulnerability. |
| 10:49 | <AryehGregor> | Although maybe you can, I don't know. |
| 10:49 | <AryehGregor> | I take that back, yeah. |
| 10:49 | <AryehGregor> | I doubt browsers copy the file. |
| 10:49 | <AryehGregor> | Dunno how it works. |
| 10:50 | <AryehGregor> | What API are you using to read the file? |
| 11:19 | <hoolter> | AryehGregor: i've heard probably yes and probably no but i'm looking for someone who could tellme for sure. |
| 11:19 | <hoolter> | and i meant <html lang=en> |
| 11:19 | <AryehGregor> | hoolter, well, you can't omit the root tag if you want to specify any attributes on it. You can still omit the end tag. |
| 11:20 | <AryehGregor> | If you want lang=en on the root element, you can't omit <html>, no. |
| 11:20 | <AryehGregor> | You could put it on <body>, although then you can't omit <body>. |
| 11:20 | <AryehGregor> | hoolter, with respect to the file question: what API are you using to read the file? |
| 11:32 | <hoolter> | AryehGregor: so I can have the following as my entire file and it's all totally fine then? | <!doctype html><html lang=en><meta charset=utf-8><title>t</title><p>hello, world!</p> |
| 11:33 | <hoolter> | AryehGregor: IDK. I'm just wondering if it's possible at all. See this video... just watch the first 25s of it or so, it's incredible. but i can't reproduce it or wrap my mind around how it could work. you know? www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY56fNmn2cE&feature=player_embedded |
| 11:34 | <AryehGregor> | hoolter, yes, that's valid. Enter it into http://html5.validator.nu/ and see for yourself. The shortest valid HTML document is: <!doctype html><title></title> |
| 11:38 | <hoolter> | AryehGregor: sweet. do u mind checking the video? It is fairly cool regardless of my question. |
| 11:39 | <AryehGregor> | hoolter, I have other things I'm doing right now. If you have specific questions beyond what you've already asked, feel free to ask. |
| 11:39 | <hsivonen> | Now I remember why I went upgraded to HttpClient 4.1 yet. It's even more complicated to use than 3.1. |
| 11:39 | <hsivonen> | s/went/haven't/ |
| 11:50 | <hoolter1> | AryehGregor: well i mean, is what i described possible using any api whatsoever that's thus yet been implemented by a version of chromium? |
| 11:50 | <AryehGregor> | hoolter1, 1) I don't know offhand, 2) what does Chromium have to do with it? This is a standards channel. |
| 11:57 | <hoolter> | AryehGregor: well that's the one that was used to demo the feature in the video. presumably it's at least a proposed standard of some sort. |
| 11:57 | <AryehGregor> | Probably. |
| 11:57 | <AryehGregor> | There are various file-related APIs floating around, I haven't been keeping track. |
| 12:09 | <hoolter> | AryehGregor: ah, ok. |
| 12:12 | <smaug____> | hoolter: yes, chrome implements some file system APIs |
| 12:12 | <smaug____> | I don't think anyone else is going to implement those APIs |
| 12:13 | <smaug____> | (but there will be some other file handling related APIs ) |
| 14:55 | <zewt> | heh alt/title thread going on right when i hit a curious bit of nonsense |
| 14:56 | <zewt> | http://valgrind.org/docs/manual/dist.news.html has title="2. NEWS" on the whole thing, which apparently means that no matter where I idle the mouse, a "2. NEWS" tooltip pops up |
| 14:56 | <zewt> | (in Chrome, anyway) |
| 15:02 | <zewt> | now, if @title had simply been named @tooltip, nobody would be getting confused and thinking @title means something like "title for this section", heh |
| 15:02 | <zewt> | ("but it might be displayed as something other than a tooltip!" ... that doesn't matter! heh) |
| 15:02 | <odinho> | heh. People. |
| 15:03 | <jgraham> | Maybe it shoudl have been named @banana |
| 15:04 | <zewt> | (because that would have been informative) |
| 15:06 | <jgraham> | Well it would stop people reading things into the name |
| 15:06 | <zewt> | reading things into the name is fine, if it's at least the right ballpark |
| 15:12 | <karlcow> | @hint ? |
| 15:13 | <zewt> | not like we can change it :) |
| 15:13 | <karlcow> | we can… it depends on the choices of life ;) being compatible or not with the deployed Web. |
| 15:14 | <karlcow> | being irrelevant as an art of life. |
| 15:16 | <zewt> | well, we already know the answer to that, heh |
| 15:45 | <Stevef> | some examples of title duplicating text content http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/title-usage.html |
| 16:02 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Was there some change recently to the spec regarding pushState and base URLs? I (think I) remember you mentioning it, but I can't find it right now |
| 16:06 | <jgraham> | Ah http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120629#l-110 |
| 16:08 | <Hixie> | jgraham: for some definition of "recently", yes |
| 16:08 | <Hixie> | jgraham: basically the concept of "current document's address" is entirely removed |
| 16:08 | <Hixie> | jgraham: it's a pretty big simplification |
| 16:09 | <Hixie> | jgraham: (unfortunately seems to screw opera for following the spec, sorry about that) |
| 16:10 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Well a month ago is pretty recently |
| 16:10 | <Hixie> | k :-) |
| 16:11 | <jgraham> | Well I was away for 2.5 weeks of that time as well :p |
| 16:11 | <jgraham> | So what's an observable change here? |
| 16:12 | <Hixie> | let me get you a test case, one sec |
| 16:12 | <Hixie> | http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/history/pushState/ |
| 16:12 | <Hixie> | warning, these tests seriously confuse the back button |
| 16:13 | <jgraham> | Great, thanks |
| 16:13 | <jgraham> | Heh |
| 16:50 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 16:50 | <edwardbc> | morning |
| 16:51 | <Hixie> | ok, i've added examples to the autocomplete field table. yay for timbl whose name has all the needed fields. :-) |
| 17:12 | <zewt> | a new (gross) one to me: someone sending mail with code in it ... with syntax highlighting |
| 18:13 | <hober> | Hixie: nope |
| 18:24 | <Hixie> | hober: k |
| 18:49 | <Hixie> | zewt: yt? |
| 18:49 | <Hixie> | zewt: re http://www.w3.org/mid/CABirCh-3Fa6xH=JA_j1b=d-7fGfrhAiG8WFUr=zbx0HDBGqEkQ⊙mgc -- what do you mean by "header line"? |
| 19:10 | <zewt> | Hixie: a line eaten by the "Header" section of the parser |
| 19:11 | <Hixie> | do you mean that this: |
| 19:11 | <Hixie> | WEBVTT |
| 19:11 | <Hixie> | language:fr |
| 19:11 | <Hixie> | timestamp --> timestamp |
| 19:11 | <Hixie> | foo |
| 19:11 | <Hixie> | ...would treat "language:fr" as a "header" line? |
| 19:11 | <Hixie> | rather than as an "id" line? |
| 19:11 | <zewt> | yes, though it looks correct in that instance |
| 19:11 | <Hixie> | ok |
| 19:12 | <Hixie> | RESOLVED Working As Intended |
| 19:12 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 19:12 | <zewt> | i mean if the "language:fr" line was actually something meant to be a "text track cue identifier", eg. step 31 |
| 19:13 | <Hixie> | well the file is non-conforming either way |
| 19:13 | <Hixie> | this is just error handling |
| 19:13 | <Hixie> | for all we know, the line in question could be the cue text from some previous cue whose timestamp got croped |
| 19:13 | <Hixie> | cropped |
| 19:13 | <zewt> | huh? webvtt cue identifiers are in the syntax |
| 19:14 | <Hixie> | or it could be that the --> line is actually meant to be a comment |
| 19:14 | <Hixie> | the point is the file is invalid, so there's no way to know what the author meant |
| 19:14 | <Hixie> | we're just doing our best to salvage what we can from the mess |
| 19:14 | <zewt> | okay, looking at the syntax, the correct answer is "there should be a blank line before the first cue" |
| 19:18 | <Hixie> | right |
| 19:19 | <zewt> | (followed up on the thread to close that out) |
| 19:21 | <zewt> | (guessing that'll be a common mistake, but probably a harmless one since cue ids are probably uncommon) |
| 20:04 | <Areks|2> | Hello all. |
| 20:06 | <Areks|2> | Who made markup for tablet with android? |
| 20:08 | <Areks|2> | I use "Times New Roman" font in design, and all devices display it correctly except android. |
| 20:09 | <Areks|2> | Does anybody had same problem? |
| 20:11 | <Wilto> | Areks|2: Some older Androids will default to Droid Serif for all serifs and Droid Sans for all sans-serifs. It may not have Times New Roman installed. |
| 20:12 | <Wilto> | The #CSS channel is a more appropriate place for these sorts of questions -- hope that helps, though. |
| 20:14 | <Areks|2> | Wilto: The problem is really interesting, because cyrillic symbols display correctly |
| 20:15 | <Areks|2> | Wilto: i'll try to ask on css, thanks |
| 20:15 | <Wilto> | No worries, man. |