| 00:18 | <zewt> | wow, cancelling mousedown in chrome is being really strange |
| 00:18 | <zewt> | causes a click to be registered if the mouseup happens while the mouse is over the element; no "minimum drag distance" click cancels happen at all |
| 00:19 | <zewt> | new one for me |
| 00:20 | <tantek> | Thanks hober. |
| 00:20 | tantek | smiles at https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18231#c1 |
| 00:22 | <tantek> | Hixie, the What you can do write-up seems reasonable, given your preferred methods of working/communication. |
| 00:22 | <tantek> | The only thing I'd change is to move this sentence to the start: "The best place to start is to join us on IRC and ask what you can do. " |
| 00:34 | <zewt> | eh? it's happening in firefox too--even more bizarre |
| 00:35 | <zewt> | maybe I've just never implemented something that's both drag-scrollable and clickable before to never have noticed this, but it's nonsensical behavior |
| 00:55 | <Hixie> | tantek: heh, i'm amused at the difference in how he handled it vs how i handled it. :-) https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17499 |
| 00:56 | <Hixie> | tantek: i thought about doing that but i think the best place to start for suggesting a new feature is to describe the problem and post it to the list, not join IRC. joining IRC is more for just participating in existing discussions, which is what the last few paragraphs are about |
| 01:10 | <tantek> | Hixie, asking about a general problem area on IRC may be faster than spending time writing up a more thorough description (what people tend to do on email) of the problem and posting it on the list. |
| 01:11 | <tantek> | and if it's not already known problem area, a bit of back/forth on IRC from the "regulars" may help a new person better frame/describe their problem in a writeup for the list (or wiki), which should increase efficiency for everyone involved. |
| 01:13 | <Hixie> | fair enough |
| 01:14 | Hixie | looks at how to phrase it |
| 01:14 | <Hixie> | i definitely don't want to encourage people to come to irc before they're thought about what their problem is |
| 01:14 | <Hixie> | so it can't be the first step |
| 01:24 | <Hixie> | i don't really see how to do it |
| 01:24 | <zewt> | Hixie: better than posting to the list before they've thought about it :) |
| 01:28 | <Hixie> | zewt: well, the article suggests very strongly that they don't do that, no? |
| 01:29 | <zewt> | Hixie: but putting irc above or below the mailing list shouldn't change that very much |
| 01:30 | <Hixie> | i just don't see how to phrase it in a way that doesn't hurt the flow |
| 01:30 | <zewt> | (and if people are going to come in with half-formed ideas, better it be on IRC than the list, IMO) |
| 01:30 | <tantek> | Hixie, something like, Optional: considering pinging briefly on IRC about your general problem area to see if the folks there might suggest a quick solution, or perhaps offer suggestions for how to better phrase/writeup your problem description for the list (or wiki) |
| 01:31 | <tantek> | on that zewt, I have to agree. |
| 01:31 | <zewt> | (noise on IRC based on an idea that hasn't been formulated well enough is less likely to trigger a two-week ill-formed discussion than on the list) |
| 01:31 | <tantek> | = more efficient |
| 03:07 | <Hixie> | i shall have to look into it in the morning |
| 07:14 | <Smylers> | From Hixie's mammoth src-set mail: “While the page is loading, the user's roommate starts watching an HD show on Hulu while his neighbour, also using the wife, starts downloading a 4GB file on Bittorrent.” |
| 07:14 | <Smylers> | I'd've thought that if his neighbour is using his wife, he's got more to worry about than the speed at which his images are downloading ... |
| 07:14 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: Did you have a chance to look at Web Perf -> github yet? |
| 07:15 | <jgraham> | Smylers: Different people have different domestic arragements :) |
| 07:27 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: not yet but will do it later today |
| 07:30 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: Thanks :) |
| 09:18 | <odinho> | Hixie: [The how to improve HTML article] That bug link is kinda ugly, yes, but still, is it better to place it behind an url shortener? |
| 09:54 | <matjas> | odinho, Hixie: perhaps a more descriptive short URL would be better, e.g. http://html5.org/bug |
| 09:55 | <odinho> | matjas: Yea, and one that is controlled by the project itself. -- Not that I don't trust Google or anything, it's just ... not good having single point gatekeepers :] |
| 09:55 | matjas | sets up http://mths.be/htmlbug |
| 09:56 | <matjas> | (for personal use) |
| 09:56 | <matjas> | odinho: exactly |
| 09:56 | <odinho> | I even have my own s0.no for short urls when I really needed it. But I stopped using it. Got it when short urls were all the rage back in 2007 or when it was. |
| 09:58 | <matjas> | hipster! |
| 09:58 | <odinho> | :P |
| 10:02 | <jgraham> | odinho: Do you also ride a bike with only one gear? |
| 10:03 | <odinho> | jgraham: I looked for one, actually! :D lol |
| 10:03 | <odinho> | jgraham: Because it's easier tech, so it might not be too prone to breakage. And easy to fix. |
| 10:03 | <odinho> | Oh man. |
| 10:03 | odinho | hides |
| 14:22 | <Wilto> | Hixie: I’m happy to pass that post along to the rest of the ALA team, whenever you’d like. |
| 14:43 | <tobie> | Hixie: holding a small informal meet up on AppCache woes next week (yeah, I know, it's a pet peeve of mine). What kind of output would be most useful to you, if any? |
| 14:47 | <Ms2ger> | w3c: 'XForms 2.0' and 'XForms 2.0: XPath expression module' Drafts Published http://t.co/QnC7c4Mw |
| 15:35 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 15:38 | <odinho> | good evening! :D |
| 15:46 | <garciawebdev> | good morning |
| 15:46 | <garciawebdev> | are PUT and DELETE HTTP methods supported by most modern browsers and IE7+ ? |
| 17:24 | <hober> | I take it at this point that the Anolis repo at hg.gsnedders.com is not the most recent version that people actually use? |
| 17:24 | <Ms2ger> | Nope |
| 17:24 | <Ms2ger> | https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/anolis |
| 17:25 | <hober> | word. |
| 17:26 | <Ms2ger> | There's some more documentation somewhere on wiki.whatwg.org |
| 18:10 | Ms2ger | waves at Geoffrey Sneddon (New to Bugzilla) |
| 18:56 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: I'm new to Bugzilla? |
| 18:56 | <Ms2ger> | Apparently :) |
| 18:57 | <gsnedders> | Interesting, given my account is almost 8 years old. :) |
| 19:41 | <Hixie> | odinho, matjas: good point, will change that url |
| 19:41 | <Hixie> | Wilto: zeldman gave me an e-mail address to use, so i'm good. but thanks. |
| 19:41 | <Hixie> | tobie: use case descriptions that don't mention appcache :-) |
| 19:48 | <Hixie> | that wifi/wife typo is really weird -- i and e aren't near each other on any keyboards that i used to type that, and it's not like i type the word "wife", like, ever (certainly not as often as wifi), so i don't see why there'd be muscle memory! |
| 19:48 | <Hixie> | funny though |
| 19:49 | <Ms2ger> | Freudian slip? |
| 19:51 | <Hixie> | that i want to use the neighbour's wife? my neighbour isn't married, as far as i know. |
| 19:54 | <Hixie> | tantek: i added an earlier mention of IRC at http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/What_you_can_do#How_you_can_improve_HTML -- what do you think? |
| 20:05 | <Ms2ger> | Bah |
| 20:06 | <Ms2ger> | This microsoft test uses video.startTime |
| 20:06 | <Ms2ger> | Which apparently doesn't exist |
| 20:37 | <jgraham> | Hixie: It reads like you mentioned IRC twice even though you didn't quite |
| 20:38 | <jgraham> | Also, you should probably mention that real-world examples of people working around the lack of a feature are useful |
| 20:38 | <jgraham> | i.e. people addressing the use case using existing technologies |
| 20:58 | <Yuhong> | http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4336924 |
| 20:58 | <Yuhong> | On the HTML5 buzzword. |
| 21:07 | <jarek> | it's not a buzzword, it's a marketing term |
| 21:09 | <Yuhong> | And a misleading one at that. |
| 21:09 | <jarek> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzzword |
| 21:09 | <jarek> | actually, I think you are right :) |
| 21:20 | <tantek> | Hixie, that's pretty good. |
| 21:20 | <tantek> | I'd more strongly emphasize key adjectives in the opening "First, " sentence |
| 21:20 | <tantek> | e.g. right now you have: "First, write a description of the problem" |
| 21:20 | <tantek> | I'd say something like: "First, write a brief user-centric description of the problem." |
| 21:20 | <tantek> | I think what you're calling "high-level", I'd call user-centric |
| 21:21 | <tantek> | for example, "need a native triple-store" reads like a high-level description of a problem |
| 21:21 | <tantek> | but has nothing to do with the user |
| 21:21 | <tantek> | hence I prefer the term user-centric rather than high-level for these things |
| 21:22 | <tantek> | this is certainly very good: "0. Discuss the topic on our IRC channel (#whatwg on Freenode) to see if you've missed anything obvious " |
| 21:24 | <tantek> | interestingly enough, that page seems to assume people already have some experience with HTML - which is a reasonable assumption |
| 21:25 | <tantek> | though I bet a lot of folks coming up with feature requests don't realize there's already something in HTML (or CSS, or JS, or WebAPIs) that satisfies their use case |
| 21:25 | <tantek> | with microformats, we've had to make that implicit step explicit: http://microformats.org/wiki/process#Get_some_experience_first |
| 21:26 | <gavinc> | Perhaps a link to a web interface to IRC? |
| 21:26 | <gavinc> | as otherwise step 0 may be a large one |
| 21:27 | <tantek> | the subsequent section, "Why?" http://microformats.org/wiki/process#Why.3F is similar to the start of "How you can improve HTML " |
| 21:27 | <tantek> | gavinc - excellent idea - feel free to improve http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Irc accordingly |
| 21:28 | <tantek> | (now linked from that step 0) |
| 21:28 | <Wilto> | Would ALA editor feedback be helpful at this point? |
| 21:29 | <tantek> | gavinc - also, feel free to copy from http://microformats.org/wiki/irc#Quick_Start which provides some minimal setup/web interface info |
| 21:36 | <Yuhong> | tantek: Noticed I mentioned your suggestion to modularize HTML on HN. |
| 21:36 | <tantek> | Yuhong - thanks! Hopefully we'll get some additional discussion. |
| 21:37 | <Yuhong> | tantek: Based on the fact that the "HTML5" buzzword will not disappear tomorrow. |
| 21:37 | <Yuhong> | http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4336924 |
| 21:37 | <tantek> | so we might as well take advantage of that |
| 21:37 | <tantek> | Yuhong, also, since you're here often enough, add yourself to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/IRC |
| 21:44 | <gavinc> | tantek: will do |
| 21:54 | <tobie> | Hixie: that's exactly what I had in mind. |
| 22:19 | <Hixie> | tantek, jgraham: updated, thanks. |
| 22:19 | <Hixie> | tobie: cool |
| 22:19 | <Hixie> | Wilto: sure |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | wait, the HTML test suite isn't MIT licensed? |
| 23:07 | <zewt> | heh <zewt> jgraham: are there any requirements on test licensing to make sure the tests can be reused? (eg. by whatwg) |
| 23:08 | <Hixie> | forget whatwg, what about browser vendors?? |
| 23:09 | <zewt> | they don't necessarily even need a license to be able to run the tests, but you definitely need one to modify them |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | browser vendors import the tests into their repos (which means they need a license to copy them) and modify them to fit their needs (so, they need to modify them) |
| 23:10 | <Hixie> | ironically, we'd need less of a license since we'd only need to describe diffs |
| 23:10 | <Hixie> | which don't necessarily require anything beyond fair use |
| 23:10 | <Hixie> | if that |
| 23:11 | <zewt> | a widely-debated topic, from what i recall |
| 23:11 | <zewt> | (recalling good old DJB and his "no modifications allowed, not even patches" licensing) |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | many things are widely debated |
| 23:12 | <zewt> | that is so |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | e.g. whether humans affect the climate |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | whether species evolve from each other |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | doesn't mean there's any actual question as to the matter :-) |
| 23:13 | <zewt> | you're aware "fair use" doesn't even exist in many countries, right? :) |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | i am |
| 23:17 | <tantek> | the test suites should be placed in the public domain (per CC0) just like everything else. |
| 23:17 | <tantek> | (in standards) |
| 23:17 | <Hixie> | that's what i had assumed was the case, but recent e-mails suggest it may not be |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | tantek: btw i updated the wiki page, let me know if you have further comments. Regarding your comment about it sounding like it was aimed at web devs rather than users: it is; specifically, it's intended for a list apart. |
| 23:24 | <tantek> | Hixie - looks good |
| 23:24 | <tantek> | any further iteration can happen lazily / as-needed |
| 23:27 | <tantek> | is there an ALA article in the works about "How to improve HTML?" |
| 23:28 | <Hixie> | yes, that wiki section |
| 23:29 | <Hixie> | heycam|away: ping (re: making the concept of 'global environment' broader than just for JS in webidl, so that I don't have to be JS-specific in defining the three kinds of global environments in the web) |
| 23:36 | <tantek> | Hixie, re: PD(CC0) test cases, perhaps we could make such an encouragement (to make test cases all explicilty PD/CC0) on the wiki page: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Test_cases |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | i doubt that wiki page would have any impact on the relevant folk :-) |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | but feel free to do so |
| 23:38 | <tantek> | and http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Testsuite |
| 23:38 | <tantek> | i find it hard at times to guess a priori who the "relevant folk" are |
| 23:38 | <tantek> | by posting things on a wiki page, it increases the chance that new folks will pick up the suggestions and incorporate them |
| 23:39 | <tantek> | ok |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | relevant folk in this case is whoever at the w3c is in charge of picking a license |
| 23:40 | <tantek> | I'd rather that individuals just post PD/CC0 test cases to the web, and then anyone can aggregate/curate them, no need for W3C to be a bottleneck |
| 23:41 | <Hixie> | the gap between what i'd rather be happening here and what is actually happening here is a vast chasm that rivals some of the most impressive natural canyons known to man |
| 23:41 | <Hixie> | but yes, in principle i completely agree |
| 23:41 | <tantek> | sounds good, I'll make a note of it |
| 23:44 | <tantek> | Hixie, all the CSSWG tests are available under 3-clause BSD in addition to whatever bespoke W3C license: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/Overview.en.html |
| 23:44 | <tantek> | so there is that |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | i thought the html tests were under the mit license |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | glad at least one group is doing things right |
| 23:45 | <tantek> | I suppose I could push to switch from BSD to PD/CC0 and see what happens |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | there's essentially no important difference between pd/cc0, bsd, and mit |
| 23:46 | <Hixie> | i prefer mit because it's shorter, personally |
| 23:46 | <tantek> | I prefer CC0 because it's more internationalized |
| 23:47 | <tantek> | and shorter (by reference) |
| 23:47 | <Hixie> | "shorter by reference"? |
| 23:51 | <tantek> | yes, it's a one sentence declaration that incorporates the CC0 declaration by hyperlink (with rel=license) |
| 23:51 | <tantek> | no need to include all the mumbo jumbo in every document. |
| 23:52 | <Hixie> | well you can do the same for the MIT license, that's a non-issue. In fact you don't even need to mention the MIT license, so long as it's in the relevant package somewhere. |
| 23:52 | <zewt> | (personally I always avoid linking licenses, since I can't prove that the thing it points to will never change, or always be there) |
| 23:54 | <tantek> | zewt - seems to have worked ok for Creative Commons for 8+ years. let me know when you hear of an actual (rather than theoretical) problem of that occurring. |
| 23:54 | <zewt> | uh huh, because sites never go down |
| 23:55 | <zewt> | be sloppy with licensing matters if you like |
| 23:55 | <tantek> | just saying in practice it has not posed a problem for CC |
| 23:55 | <tantek> | so let me know when you hear of an actual problem |
| 23:55 | <tantek> | rather than handwaving about how problems might happen all the time |
| 23:58 | <zewt> | (sorry, I find you consistently rude and talking to you makes me irritable, so I'm going to avoid doing so) |
| 23:59 | <tantek> | zewt I'm concisely pointing out flaws with your reasoning, if you think that's rude, perhaps avoid debate altogether. |