| 00:51 | <zewt> | sort of amusing to see people talking about one of the first things i raised on webapps a year and a half ago |
| 00:52 | <zewt> | The Web Platform: Software Development Patience |
| 02:51 | <cabanier> | zewt: the canvas conversation? |
| 02:53 | <zewt> | sync messages |
| 08:11 | <annevk> | whoa |
| 08:11 | <annevk> | 2119 had errata? |
| 08:12 | <annevk> | maybe they should have another one to remove RECOMMEND, NOT RECOMMEND, and OPTIONAL |
| 08:12 | <annevk> | *ED |
| 08:12 | <annevk> | oh, and SHALL, SHALL NOT |
| 08:13 | <annevk> | being able to recommend rather than encourage without it meaning SHOULD is nice |
| 09:23 | <deano> | annevk: Welcome back. |
| 10:21 | <jgraham> | http://www.hackermusings.com/2012/08/using-git-to-push-to-mozillas-hg-repositories/ seems quite interesting |
| 10:21 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: ^ |
| 10:21 | <annevk> | thanks deane |
| 10:43 | <deane> | annevk: Hey there. Not sure if you read the logs or not, so not sure if you saw this => http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120901#l-384 |
| 10:45 | <annevk> | deane: thanks, matjas, not sure what you want me to say |
| 10:45 | <annevk> | matjas: I suggest convincing abarth |
| 11:14 | <Smylers> | annevk: Re http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120903#l-8 onwards, is Hixie's thought that you are working on it right? |
| 11:14 | <Smylers> | Is there a bug tracking this specific point, or should I file one? |
| 11:15 | <annevk> | Smylers: I have done some work on parsing URLs; the idea is that you will end up with the / once you serialize such an object |
| 11:15 | <Smylers> | Thanks. |
| 11:15 | <annevk> | Smylers: but I'm not sure when I'll get around to doing the remainder of the research |
| 11:16 | <Smylers> | annevk: Sure. |
| 11:17 | <Smylers> | annevk: In terms of what to tell somebody who's encountered this, would “The non-IE behaviour will be specified, but that part hasn't been written yet.” be accurate? |
| 11:18 | <annevk> | yeah I suppose |
| 11:19 | <annevk> | any eventual URL specification will closely resemble Gecko/Safari/Chrome (all subtly different unfortunately) |
| 11:19 | <annevk> | IE's URL parsing has many weird quirks |
| 11:20 | <jgraham> | Smylers: I think you tell them "You expected the most fundamental parts of the web platform to be well specified? Are you new here?" |
| 11:22 | <jgraham> | Smylers: You should also tell them that it could be worse; the TAG still haven't decided if http://example.org/ refers to a website or a car |
| 11:23 | <jgraham> | Or maybe they have now. Who knows |
| 11:56 | <Smylers> | jgraham: The person in question isn't “here”, so whatever I tell him may well affect his view of the web standards process. I was trying not to alarm him too much. |
| 11:59 | <darobin> | jgraham: actually, the question of what a URL refers to has in fact been resolved: http://faketag.org/a-101-on-the-range-of-the-http-dereference-function/ |
| 12:05 | <Smylers> | jgraham: They claim to've decided it here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Jun/0039.html |
| 12:07 | <Smylers> | jgraham: Though I note that ‘solution’ describes itself as removing ambiguity. Of the three cases they list, (b) is “could be any resource” and (c) is “unknown” — which some people may still interpret as leaving a little ambiguity there. |
| 12:08 | <darobin> | Smylers: don't listen to www-tag — it's an usurpation of the real TAG! only read the faketag.org resolution, it's the only one that breaks the Web in all the right ways |
| 12:09 | Ms2ger | raises an eyebrow |
| 12:25 | <jgraham> | Smylers: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/14 suggests that the issue was discussed at a F2F a few months ago, and there was a TAG-Member only thread (I guess one should hide one's shame) questioning whether the issue is in fact still open |
| 12:25 | <jgraham> | Still it does give the impression that they aren't sure if they are dereferencing their arse or their elbow |
| 12:27 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: thanks for the link about pushing to hg from git |
| 12:28 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: Yeah, it seems like all the actual code might be somewhat hidden |
| 12:28 | <jgraham> | But maybe we could ask them to reuse it |
| 12:31 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: BTW people on web-notifications are asking about publication status |
| 12:32 | <jgraham> | I imagine that is blocked by the lack of annevk |
| 12:32 | <jgraham> | Or, less specifically, the lack of a chir |
| 12:32 | <jgraham> | *chair |
| 12:32 | <jgraham> | But maybe you should say that since you are staff contact |
| 12:32 | <jgraham> | (I think) |
| 12:32 | <Ms2ger> | Did jgraham just volunteer to chair? |
| 12:32 | <jgraham> | Hahahaha |
| 12:35 | <odinho> | Ms2ger: Lots of voulenteering happening in this channel lately. |
| 12:35 | <Ms2ger> | odinho, oh yes, you were going to edit something, I just can't remember what... |
| 12:45 | <Ms2ger> | jsbell-- |
| 12:48 | <jgraham> | ? |
| 12:49 | <Ms2ger> | Writing tests with some obscure test harness |
| 12:53 | <jgraham> | Ugh. Link? |
| 12:54 | <Ms2ger> | https://code.google.com/p/stringencoding/ |
| 12:54 | <Ms2ger> | On another note |
| 12:54 | <Ms2ger> | > we ran into site compatibility issues |
| 12:54 | <Ms2ger> | Is there a compat problem? |
| 12:59 | <jgraham> | Oh, qunit, yuck |
| 13:00 | <jgraham> | Doesn't look too hard to convert though |
| 13:34 | <crocket> | How can I make a web browser display consecutive whitespace characters? |
| 13:34 | <crocket> | They all collapse into one whitespace character. |
| 13:38 | <Lachy> | crocket, depends on what you need to do that for. There are multiple methods |
| 13:40 | <Lachy> | crocket, 1. <pre> </pre>. 2. Use CSS 'white-space' property, or 3. Use non-breaking spaces |
| 13:40 | <crocket> | Lachy, How do I apply a monospace font-family? |
| 13:41 | <Lachy> | CSS 'font-family' property, or the 'font' shorthand. |
| 13:41 | <Lachy> | crocket, if you're trying to markup code and want it displayed in a monospace font with whitespace preserved, then just use <pre> |
| 13:42 | <Lachy> | that's the default rendering |
| 13:45 | <crocket> | Lachy, What if I want a monospace serif font? |
| 13:48 | <Lachy> | crocket, lots of monospace fonts have serifs on the glyphs. |
| 13:49 | <Lachy> | but you can't declare both monospace and serif generic font families together |
| 13:50 | <crocket> | Lachy, That's unfortunate. |
| 13:51 | <Lachy> | crocket, you can name a specific font if you have one in mind |
| 13:51 | <Lachy> | But even Courier New has serifs, so I don't see the problem. |
| 14:43 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, I guess you haven't set up the post-push hook for DOM yet? |
| 15:15 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: no, I should |
| 15:15 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: that is, my plan is to update dom.spec.whatwg.org on push |
| 15:15 | <Ms2ger> | Good :) |
| 15:16 | <annevk> | I wanted to wait a bit for the W3C to reply to my inquiry |
| 15:16 | <annevk> | and then move on |
| 15:17 | <annevk> | with a timeout of about one more week, as I'm somewhat eager to do some spec updates |
| 15:17 | <Ms2ger> | I did a few |
| 15:17 | <annevk> | I noticed you pushed to github already, nice :) |
| 15:18 | <Ms2ger> | hg-git works well enough |
| 15:22 | <jgraham> | Hixie: I assume you don't object to your document.open-in-unload tests being submitted to W3C under the normal license for the testsuite? I adapted them to testharness.js |
| 15:26 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham++ |
| 15:37 | <Hixie> | jgraham: sure |
| 15:37 | <Hixie> | jgraham: (what's the license? mit?) |
| 15:39 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Dual W3C Testsuite / 3 clause BSD |
| 15:39 | <Hixie> | yeah, that's fine |
| 15:40 | <jgraham> | http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2008/04-testsuite-copyright.html |
| 15:44 | <jgraham> | http://w3c-test.org/html/tests/submission/Opera/loading_web_pages/browsing_the_web/unloading_documents/document_open/ |
| 15:45 | <jgraham> | I may have broken the tests of course, please let me know if I did |
| 15:46 | <jgraham> | (also, WTF, I just tried one of the tests in WebKit and got a QUOTA_EXCEEDED_ERR) |
| 15:46 | <jgraham> | OK, that's just 005 |
| 15:51 | <Hixie> | how can you get a storage exceeded error |
| 15:52 | <Hixie> | sweet lord, the tests now import tons of scripts |
| 15:52 | <Hixie> | i make no guarantees that they are valid |
| 15:52 | <Hixie> | (and i still don't understand why we have to do this rather than just exposing an API and using iframes) |
| 15:53 | <jgraham> | I'm not sure what you mean by "exposing an API and using iframes" |
| 15:53 | <Hixie> | oh i see, that's in fact what you do |
| 15:53 | <Hixie> | nevermind |
| 15:53 | <Hixie> | i didn't realise you renamed it too :-) |
| 15:53 | <jgraham> | Oh you mean 001.html -> 001-1.html |
| 15:54 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 15:54 | <Hixie> | i also don't understand the quota error in 005 |
| 15:54 | <jgraham> | Yeah, your tests are running in their own browsing context. New windows are slightly less evil than iframes for things that poke at the history |
| 15:54 | <jgraham> | Or document loading |
| 15:55 | <Hixie> | right |
| 16:02 | <zewt> | jgraham: more likely to trigger unrelated issues, though (popup blockers and not being allowed to open new windows--two issues I just hit trying to run that one) |
| 16:02 | <zewt> | (the first is easy enough to undo, the second i'd have to go play with obscure about:config stuff so I didn't bother) |
| 16:03 | <jgraham> | zewt: Right, alllowing popups from test sites does become necessary |
| 16:03 | <Hixie> | I really don't understand this quota problem |
| 16:04 | <jgraham> | But it can be a tab rather than a window |
| 16:04 | <Hixie> | is there some infinite loop going on or something? |
| 16:04 | <zewt> | jgraham: i have firefox set to never allow new windows or tabs; links always open in the same tab |
| 16:04 | <zewt> | (too many abusive sites trying to open new windows for every single link) |
| 16:04 | <jgraham> | zewt: Oh, well yeah I guess if you have weird non-standard configurations it is harder |
| 16:05 | <zewt> | one of those things i've never understood browsers allowing, since the abuse is so widespread and annoying |
| 16:06 | <jgraham> | Hixie: So I note that 001 seems to give 012389 rather consistently in existing browsers |
| 16:06 | <jgraham> | Ignoring Opera which is clearly broken and IE which I would have to change computers to test |
| 16:06 | <Hixie> | yeah, several of the test cases give reliable results that differ from what i ended up requiring, but it turns out that if you examine what they're doing it is crazy and doesn't really work in all cases |
| 16:07 | <Hixie> | (gecko and webkit in particular actually do quite different things) |
| 16:07 | <Hixie> | (yet end up with similar results on some of the tests out of basically coincidence) |
| 16:08 | <jgraham> | OK |
| 16:08 | <jgraham> | I am always nervous when the spec doesn't match implementations |
| 16:08 | <jgraham> | Especially if they match each other |
| 16:08 | <Hixie> | none of the implementations actually match here |
| 16:08 | <Hixie> | see my rants on irc (i linked to them from the checkin comment) for more details |
| 16:08 | <jgraham> | But obviously this is an insane thing to rely on |
| 16:09 | <Hixie> | (though note that i didn't do exactly what i suggested i should do in those notes, in the end) |
| 16:10 | <jgraham> | Which probably means that only facebook, google and twitter depend on it ;) |
| 16:58 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 16:58 | <annevk> | github is annoyingly inconsistent with URLs |
| 16:59 | <annevk> | /whatwg and /WHATWG both work |
| 16:59 | <annevk> | as well as /whatWG and other crap |
| 17:01 | <zewt> | okay, that's annoying |
| 17:11 | <ubitux> | i don't understand what this http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/#webvtt-cue-ruby-span is |
| 17:14 | <ubitux> | anyone has a simple explanation about what to do with this? |
| 17:15 | <zewt> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-ruby-element |
| 17:15 | <webben> | ubitux: It's a way to put Ruby annotations in captions. |
| 17:16 | <webben> | ubitux: basically it's a type of oriental gloss: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_character |
| 17:18 | <ubitux> | oh ok |
| 17:18 | <ubitux> | thanks |
| 17:32 | <ubitux> | that will be kind of painful to support such format :( |
| 17:33 | <zewt> | (how? who? where? context :) |
| 17:34 | <ubitux> | outside a browser |
| 17:34 | <ubitux> | C app |
| 17:34 | <ubitux> | subtitles transcoding |
| 17:34 | <ubitux> | rendering |
| 17:34 | <zewt> | transcoding is easy enough (if the format you're converting to doesn't support it, you remove the unsupported feature) |
| 17:35 | <ubitux> | transcoding is one of the most difficult |
| 17:35 | <ubitux> | the worst being the rendering, closely related |
| 17:35 | <ubitux> | the problem is, for subtitles rendering, the only library we can use is libass |
| 17:35 | <ubitux> | so we basically need to convert webvtt markup to ASS one |
| 17:36 | <zewt> | not due to this feature--you already have to parse the cue text, and you remove nodes for unsupported features |
| 17:36 | <zewt> | (converting to another format for rendering is probably not the best approach, though it may be the quickest short-term) |
| 17:36 | <ubitux> | that's the only solution |
| 17:36 | <ubitux> | or maybe you want to write a subtitles rendering library? |
| 17:36 | <ubitux> | at the moment libass is the most mature one |
| 17:37 | <zewt> | how could it possibly be the only solution? :) |
| 17:37 | <ubitux> | well i don't really want to dedicate 5 yr of my life to rewrite a rendering engine |
| 17:38 | <zewt> | rendering subtitles isn't a 5-year project unless a codebase is catastrophically broken |
| 17:38 | <Ms2ger> | Who's to say it isn't so? |
| 17:38 | <ubitux> | libass still has font glyph issues |
| 17:38 | <ubitux> | font stuff is a complex matter |
| 17:39 | <ubitux> | mixed with blur, rotation and misc. other transformations |
| 17:39 | <zewt> | that's why you don't write a font renderer, you use a font rendering engine (like freetype) |
| 17:39 | <ubitux> | and now ruby and stuff.. |
| 17:39 | <ubitux> | that's what libass does |
| 17:40 | <ubitux> | libass is a "small" project of 10k lines |
| 17:40 | <ubitux> | the best move would be to fork it and make it supports the new vtt markup and stuff |
| 17:41 | <ubitux> | but that also means supporting CSS stuff |
| 17:41 | <ubitux> | and making available the access to the AST etc |
| 17:42 | <ubitux> | anyway, that's far from trivial |
| 17:42 | <ubitux> | i guess all of this is not really a problem for browsers |
| 17:42 | <ubitux> | but for anything else it is |
| 17:43 | <zewt> | (nothing is "trivial", and no matter what you do you need to support vtt's subset of CSS at some level) |
| 17:43 | <ubitux> | that's assuming browser will actually force the limit to these properties |
| 17:44 | <ubitux> | which won't happen and users will start abusing it quite quickl |
| 17:44 | <ubitux> | +y |
| 17:44 | <gsnedders> | ubitux: Do you have any evidence for that? |
| 17:44 | <ubitux> | well, that's what always happen |
| 17:45 | <zewt> | (i'm not assuming anything--no matter what you do, you need to be parsing CSS somewhere if you intend to support vtt's styling features at all) |
| 17:45 | <ubitux> | if even only one browser allows all the CSS stuff (because that's likely simpler), users WILL abuse it |
| 17:45 | <zewt> | whether that happens as part of a transcoding layer or closer to the renderer, it's got to be somewhere |
| 17:47 | <ubitux> | well anyway, requiring a CSS parser/matcher is kind of a problem |
| 17:47 | <ubitux> | of course, we can just ignore all that part |
| 17:50 | <ubitux> | now if we assume we actually write that CSS stuff (which is unlikely because of the complexity) the rendering will require something at least as big as libass |
| 17:51 | <ubitux> | so well, this is why i said it will be kind of painful to support such format |
| 17:51 | <ubitux> | (outside the browser) |
| 17:51 | <ubitux> | (so any players or subtitles editor/converter) |
| 17:53 | <zewt> | ... that's something any serious captioning format is going to need (though comparing to ass isn't accurate--it supports lots of stuff other formats, including vtt, don't, like karaoke effects) |
| 17:54 | <ubitux> | ass supports karaoke |
| 17:54 | <ubitux> | jacosub as well |
| 17:54 | <zewt> | what? i just said ass does and vtt doesn't :) |
| 17:55 | <ubitux> | i thought vtt did |
| 17:55 | <zewt> | (vtt has very basic "change color at this time", but not all the goofy effects people do with ass) |
| 17:55 | <ubitux> | vtt has features not supported by ASS |
| 17:55 | <ubitux> | so you can't really fallback on the now-not-fully-featured-enough-ASS-system |
| 17:56 | <ubitux> | OTOH, if a full featured (parsing/styles-and-events-AST-publicly-accessible/rendering/portable) libsubtitles/libwebvtt was available, all of that wouldn't be a problem |
| 17:56 | <ubitux> | but that's a long term project. |
| 17:56 | <zewt> | anyway, if what you want is every subtitle format to be a subset of what you already have so you don't have to implement anything, that's not likely to happen :) |
| 17:56 | <ubitux> | yes, and that's a problem ;) |
| 17:57 | <ubitux> | at the moment most systems rely on the fact that almost all existing subtitles can be expressed as an ASS-subset |
| 17:57 | <zewt> | um, most systems don't support ass at all, heh |
| 17:58 | <ubitux> | and this is neat in the sense that there is a parsing/rendering lib to do all the stuff |
| 17:58 | <ubitux> | zewt: most players do |
| 17:58 | <ubitux> | they're using the libass rendering system for all the subtitles |
| 17:58 | <ubitux> | (except the simple formats) |
| 17:58 | <ubitux> | (sometimes) |
| 17:58 | <zewt> | you mean "desktop software"; set-top stuff rarely has usable support at all (wdtv claims support, and they lie--it's so incomplete it's unusable) |
| 17:59 | <ubitux> | i meant any app ≠ browsers |
| 18:00 | <zewt> | wdtv isn't a browser, heh |
| 18:00 | <ubitux> | so players like mplayer, vlc, possible the windows one (mpc?), as well as ffmpeg and such |
| 18:00 | <ubitux> | dunno what wdtv is |
| 18:05 | <ubitux> | anyway, i guess the best way would be to start a subtitles library being able to represent any kind of style structures and related crazyness, as well as the rendering part |
| 18:05 | <ubitux> | possibly a libass fork |
| 18:05 | <ubitux> | and then port all the subtitles decoders and encoders to it |
| 18:05 | <ubitux> | but this really is IMO a 5yr project |
| 18:05 | <zewt> | you're just not likely to get traction asking for all subtitle formats to be a subset of some particular library, which partially implements a particular weird ad hoc format |
| 18:06 | <ubitux> | just to support webvtt :) |
| 18:07 | <zewt> | i'd call it a project of a few months, if you can find a standalone css parsing/selector matching implementation |
| 18:07 | <ubitux> | zewt: i believe the main point of webvtt is to make a standard way of using subtitles accross the web, but i don't think it requires all that styling stuff |
| 18:08 | <zewt> | stylesheets are always technically optional |
| 18:08 | <ubitux> | yes but they are used as the basis of most styles, such as coloring and stuff |
| 18:08 | <zewt> | what? i just agreed with you, heh |
| 18:08 | <ubitux> | this means not supporting them is kind of a problem |
| 18:08 | <zewt> | i didn't say it wasn't, it seemed that you did :) |
| 18:09 | <ubitux> | (oh and i'm omitting the charset/encoding stuff) |
| 18:09 | <zewt> | stylesheets are important for presentation (especially if the current hideous black-rectangle-behind-captions default doesn't change), but no, it's not required as such |
| 18:10 | <zewt> | encoding is straightforward; webvtt is always utf-8 |
| 18:11 | <zewt> | you really can't ask for anything simpler than *that* :) |
| 18:12 | <ubitux> | ASCII! |
| 18:12 | <zewt> | not so simple for japanese users :P |
| 18:12 | <ubitux> | romanji is more than enough |
| 18:12 | <ubitux> | :) |
| 18:13 | <zewt> | really, though, if you want implementation advice, feel free to open a discussion on public-texttracks |
| 18:14 | <zewt> | (for example, suggestions of a standalone CSS implementation, which I don't have off the top of my head) |
| 18:15 | <ubitux> | http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/SAC/ ? |
| 18:15 | <zewt> | don't know (you'd need a parser and selector matching, at least) |
| 18:16 | <ubitux> | and then we will need a CSS rendering engine |
| 18:16 | <zewt> | and a robust enough API to allow iterating over :past/:future states and adding ::cue |
| 18:17 | <ubitux> | :/ |
| 18:17 | <zewt> | no, you only need to be able to determine the state of properties at specific times (for example, font sizes aren't allowed to change once text is displayed, which simplifies a lot) |
| 18:19 | <zewt> | and the list of times at which properties change is finite, so i believe css rules + cues can be flattened to a simple list of states |
| 18:21 | <zewt> | anyway, i can't engineer this for you (and i need to eat), but again, mailing list :) |
| 18:23 | <ubitux> | i need to brainstorm by myself about what i really want indeed |
| 18:23 | <ubitux> | i think we will just make webvtt an equivalent of subrip with a lot of unsupported features |
| 18:24 | <ubitux> | and it will be more than enough :p |
| 18:25 | <zewt> | which implementation is this for, so I know what to avoid :P |
| 18:25 | <ubitux> | ffmpeg, and most likely will be used in the future by mplayer |
| 18:25 | <ubitux> | i believe vlc won't do anything more complicated as well |
| 18:25 | <ubitux> | and i don't think anything outside browsers will do as well |
| 18:26 | <ubitux> | at least not in the near future |
| 18:28 | <zewt> | (you're making me want to implement it for xbmc, so people have a good alternative) |
| 18:29 | <ubitux> | is xbmc linking with --enable-webkit? |
| 18:30 | <ubitux> | oh and btw, we can't actually rely on any library |
| 18:30 | <ubitux> | because what's the decoded packets for subtitles will contain the exploitable AST of the events & styles |
| 18:31 | <ubitux> | so it would require api user to link on that library as well, which is a problem |
| 18:31 | <ubitux> | so the full chain needs to be available |
| 18:31 | <ubitux> | as builtin |
| 18:53 | <zewt> | no, and you seem to have a misunderstanding of the complexity of webvtt if you think you need webkit to render it |
| 19:15 | <annevk> | so Instant Upload from Google+ |
| 19:16 | <Ms2ger> | Google+ still exists? |
| 19:16 | <annevk> | is that known to fail when you attempt to upload 1500 at once? |
| 19:16 | <zewt> | is that the camera upload thing? because it's so un-instant i turned it off (useless) |
| 19:16 | <annevk> | it says "Starting upload..." but nothing happens |
| 19:17 | <annevk> | I'm not interested in paying Apple for iCloud so I figured I'd use this as backup instead, but it's rather crappy |