| 03:38 | <GPHemsley> | hmm... it seems I may not be the only one to allow "application/octet-stream" fall victim to find and replace |
| 03:39 | <GPHemsley> | "there actually are hardware architectures where one |
| 03:39 | <GPHemsley> | byte is 32 bits" |
| 03:40 | <GPHemsley> | his hardware architecture has a big byte, if you know what I mean |
| 03:41 | <zewt> | do i have to make the sir mixalot joke |
| 03:49 | <JonathanNeal> | What are the pros and cons of dropping the <ul> and </li> in an HTML structure like <nav><a href="1">1</a><a href="2">2</a><a href="3">3</a></nav>? |
| 03:51 | <GPHemsley> | Hixie: Does HTML use xref? I see MIMESNIFF in HTML, but it's not in references.json. |
| 03:55 | <GPHemsley> | Hixie: Also, what is this? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/epub.html |
| 06:25 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: it doesn't |
| 06:43 | <annevk> | anyone awake that can help sketching a path API? |
| 06:43 | <annevk> | it's effectively a list of strings, but you also want to set them |
| 06:46 | <annevk> | URLPath -> list of URLPathSegment -> URLPathSegment.segment; .path[0].segment = ? it seems so cumbersome |
| 06:47 | <annevk> | and I guess you want a shortcut for the last segment, should we call that filename? ... |
| 06:47 | <annevk> | meh |
| 06:50 | <annevk> | could also do getPath and setPath |
| 06:50 | <annevk> | getPath returns a list, setPath takes the ... thingie |
| 06:50 | <annevk> | (keep forgetting the name) |
| 06:54 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: the last segment could be basename |
| 06:55 | <annevk> | ah interesting |
| 06:57 | <SimonSapin> | that’s how it’s called at least in unix and python |
| 06:59 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: what else do you want in this API? Set individual segments? |
| 06:59 | <annevk> | yeah, just give people some more control over URLs |
| 07:00 | <annevk> | I think the get/setPath thingie might be good enough, but if there's a better alternative... |
| 07:01 | <SimonSapin> | dirname is the complement to basename; not sure if it is useful |
| 07:01 | <SimonSapin> | you can already parse ".." with the previous URL as the base |
| 07:03 | <annevk> | relPathname might be interesting, resolves the new path against the old path, returns the same as pathname |
| 07:05 | <annevk> | I emailed a bit with Rodney from http://medialize.github.com/URI.js/ |
| 07:05 | <annevk> | he suggested that on the server you want to have an API for the "effective TLD" (publicsuffix.org) |
| 07:06 | <annevk> | not sure how much usage that would have client-side |
| 07:06 | <annevk> | e.g. that if you have "amazon.co.uk" in your URL and you do something like URL.effectiveTLD = "com" |
| 07:06 | <annevk> | and you end up with amazon.com |
| 07:07 | <annevk> | I guess I can note it down |
| 07:08 | <annevk> | prolly also useful for cookies |
| 07:22 | <annevk> | arv: feedback welcome on https://github.com/whatwg/url/commit/e68d34885b7ec3dc44d7124e93de5bd5f1718e4e |
| 07:22 | <annevk> | abarth: ^^ |
| 07:28 | <abarth> | annevk: please no effectiveTLD |
| 07:28 | <abarth> | annevk: that needs to die in a fire |
| 07:29 | <abarth> | its not interoperable |
| 07:29 | <annevk> | how can it die without security problems? |
| 07:29 | <abarth> | we shouldn't expose it in the API |
| 07:29 | <abarth> | its bad enough that we use it for cookies |
| 07:29 | <abarth> | we shouldn't be using it in new places in the platform |
| 07:31 | <annevk> | okay |
| 07:31 | <annevk> | noted |
| 08:04 | <annevk> | found a way to support parsing file: URLs without introducing extra state: https://github.com/whatwg/url/commit/c7e2c5fbc63710b5421889add11add6f7d19f67d |
| 08:05 | <annevk> | that's prolly enough for today |
| 08:46 | <asmodai> | You guys seen http://www.firstmenonthemoon.com/ ? |
| 08:48 | <WeirdAl> | anyone awake? I'm wondering about why TreeWalker.nextNode doesn't honor FILTER_REJECT. |
| 08:52 | <Ms2ger> | Blame... jst, I guess |
| 09:58 | <divya> | TabAtkins: JOIN #testtwf |
| 10:13 | <divya> | TabAtkins: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19736 |
| 14:34 | <GPHemsley> | So, do we talk about flags as set or unset? Or can we talk about them as set to true or set to false? |
| 14:34 | <Ms2ger> | set/unset |
| 14:37 | <zcorpan_> | GPHemsley: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/websec/trac/report/1?asc=0&sort=component lists issues with mimesniff |
| 14:37 | <GPHemsley> | zcorpan_: Woah. OK, thanks. |
| 15:00 | <zcorpan_> | annevk: is the input to "parse URL" a sequence of unicode characters? or utf-16 code units? |
| 15:09 | <zewt> | unsurprised at the name of the person that reopened 12510 ... |
| 15:10 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, yep, there's a bug on IDL waiting for heycam to come back |
| 15:11 | <annevk5> | zcorpan_: code points, see public-script-coord for my UTFString proposal |
| 15:12 | <zcorpan_> | annevk5: thanks |
| 15:12 | <annevk5> | (no need to make the IETF more upset than strictly necessary |
| 15:12 | <annevk5> | )) |
| 15:13 | <zewt> | somehow seems like an odd thing to define at the IDL level, though I'm not sure I could say exactly why |
| 15:14 | <zewt> | seems more like a part of apis than a language binding thing |
| 15:17 | <annevk5> | IDL does a lot of conversion, this is not really new and besides, it's a lot simpler than the alternative |
| 15:18 | <annevk5> | WeirdAl: I'm not opposed to extending TreeWalker more, but if there's just a few people using it, is it really worth it? |
| 15:18 | WeirdAl | shrugs |
| 15:19 | <WeirdAl> | actually I wanted to ask you about nextNode - why does it not honor FILTER_REJECT? |
| 15:19 | <WeirdAl> | previousNode does at least glance at that |
| 15:20 | <zewt> | isn't it pretty simple to define "execute a callback with error handling" and just use that where wanted |
| 15:20 | <zewt> | i mean, wouldn't doing this in webidl mean webidl would have to know about "window" in the first place? seems like webidl is lower level than that |
| 15:21 | <annevk5> | oh you meant the exception thing |
| 15:21 | <WeirdAl> | dammit, I hate control-Q |
| 15:21 | GPHemsley | worries that notes within a list are indented too much and may be confused with lists within lists. |
| 15:21 | <WeirdAl> | I missed whatever you said :( |
| 15:21 | <annevk5> | WeirdAl: that might be a bug actually |
| 15:21 | <annevk5> | WeirdAl: do browsers agree or disagree with the spec? |
| 15:22 | <annevk5> | WeirdAl: if they disagree it's a bug for sure... |
| 15:22 | <WeirdAl> | honestly I usually think only of Mozilla ;0 |
| 15:22 | <WeirdAl> | ;) |
| 15:22 | <WeirdAl> | I think their impl matches the spec. Again, I was looking for an explanation of why FILTER_REJECT doesn't factor in. |
| 15:22 | <annevk5> | so the new spec is based on Gecko, might get circular |
| 15:23 | <WeirdAl> | figures :p |
| 15:24 | <annevk5> | the spec has a |
| 15:24 | <zewt> | n unwanted newline |
| 15:24 | <WeirdAl> | and actually I wasn't referring to any exception - just that when I am done iterating over currentNode's descendants, later nodes might ignore FILTER_REJECT |
| 15:25 | <annevk5> | `<!-- XXX WTF? -->` for sibling traversal |
| 15:27 | <WeirdAl> | hehe |
| 15:27 | <annevk5> | zewt: dunno about the exception thing, but DOM does not know about the global object, IDL does I think at the binding level |
| 15:28 | <annevk5> | WeirdAl: bug + testcase would help, but if the other browsers agree with Gecko there's not much we can do I think |
| 15:28 | WeirdAl | frets |
| 15:28 | GPHemsley | wonders how annevk uses flags and <b> |
| 15:29 | <WeirdAl> | annevk - maybe I should ask smaug - he's familiar enough to know the why's |
| 15:30 | <annevk5> | GPHemsley: unset/set |
| 15:30 | <annevk5> | GPHemsley: <b> is when I don't want to use <dfn> |
| 15:31 | <GPHemsley> | annevk5: In what conditions does that occur? |
| 15:33 | <annevk5> | GPHemsley: lazy, or when <dfn> feels like overkill |
| 15:33 | <zewt> | annevk: fyi, onerror is also fired as a real DOM event |
| 15:33 | <annevk5> | mostly the latter I guess |
| 15:35 | <GPHemsley> | annevk5: What's the SOP for using words like perform/execute/rules/steps, etc.? |
| 15:35 | <zewt> | (much more usefully, too, at least in chrome; the DOM event gives separate "message", "file", "lineno" properties, where window.onerror is just a string) |
| 15:37 | <annevk5> | zewt: window.onerror is a callback with multiple arguments |
| 15:37 | <annevk5> | zewt: all of those... |
| 15:37 | <annevk5> | GPHemsley: whatever fits the context |
| 15:38 | <zewt> | oh yeah, can never remember that, but anyway the point is webidl surely shouldn't be firing events |
| 15:38 | <GPHemsley> | annevk5: Alright, well, you let me know if it doesn't fit the context :P |
| 15:38 | <annevk5> | zewt: that's not the suggestion |
| 15:39 | <annevk5> | HTML defines window.onerror |
| 15:41 | <annevk5> | IDL defines invoking callbacks and it should define where their exceptions go |
| 15:41 | <annevk5> | or provide some hook for HTML to hook into, but this is not a matter for the DOM |
| 16:33 | GPHemsley | wonders what to do with a lot of ands and ors |
| 16:38 | <Philip`> | GPHemsley: Disjunctively normalise them |
| 16:39 | <GPHemsley> | Philip`: Can you give me an example? I have ( x && ( y || ( z && w ) ) ) |
| 16:40 | <Philip`> | (x && y) || (x && z && w) |
| 16:41 | <GPHemsley> | aw, boo |
| 16:41 | <GPHemsley> | alright |
| 16:41 | Philip` | has no idea what the context of the question was, and wasn't attempting to give a serious answer |
| 16:42 | <GPHemsley> | well, it solves the problem |
| 16:42 | <GPHemsley> | it just duplicates wordage |
| 16:44 | <Philip`> | Define short terms to refer to the wordy concepts |
| 16:48 | <GPHemsley> | it's alright |
| 16:48 | <GPHemsley> | they're fairly short already |
| 16:53 | <hsivonen> | SGML reverse Huffman coded the terminology and gave the longest names to the most commonly talked about concepts |
| 16:53 | <hsivonen> | as in external document type definition subset |
| 17:03 | <Hixie> | GPHemsley: my references system is to put all the references at the bottom of the source file, and then have code to filter out the ones that aren't used |
| 17:06 | <GPHemsley> | Hixie: You like to buck every system, huh? :P |
| 17:12 | <Hixie> | to be fair, the html spec predates most of these systems :-P |
| 17:51 | <GPHemsley> | Comments welcome on my latest mimesniff commit |
| 17:56 | GPHemsley | wonders if he is the only one who ever uses the wiki |
| 19:08 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: x and either y or z and w |
| 19:09 | <annevk> | (answering your question above, not saying you have to write it like that) |
| 19:11 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: convention is to lowercase RFC2119 terms |
| 19:12 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: convention is to end flag terms with " flag" |
| 19:12 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: convention is to lowercase user agent |
| 19:12 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: convention is to put <code title> around strings, such as "<code title>text/xml</code>" |
| 19:14 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: I would combine the "Begin reading" and "Continue reading" steps as "Read bytes from the resource into /buffer/ until one of ..." |
| 19:17 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: as for your XXX comments, did you check whether e.g. "image/blahblah" is sniffed? |
| 19:17 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: because if that's not going to be snfifed, there's your reason ;) |
| 19:18 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: oh, and I use the wiki :) |
| 20:28 | <JonathanNeal> | Surely <nav> handles this now? http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#group-bypass |
| 20:45 | <annevk_> | Transmission.app software update: "Fix crash when adding magnet links with malformed webseeds"; "Fix handling of magnet links' webseed URLs that contain whitespace"; but but but URI implementations are interoperable!!1! |
| 20:47 | <zewt> | i thought the argument was "so what if implementations aren't interoperable, that's not the spec's problem" |
| 20:47 | <zewt> | not that the arguments are necessarily coherent |
| 20:55 | <stevefaulkner> | JonathanNeal: how does <nav> handle it? |
| 20:55 | <annevk_> | Yeah dunno, I guess I'll hear a few more next week |
| 20:57 | <JonathanNeal> | stevefaulkner: i missed the <img>, I was looking into an accessibility issue, where I was told to include non-link, printable characters (surrounded by spaces) between adjacent links. |
| 20:57 | <JonathanNeal> | I want to do something like <nav><a href="#foo">Foo</a> <a href="#bar">Bar</a></nav> |
| 20:59 | <stevefaulkner> | JonathanNeal: <nav><a href="#foo">Foo</a>, <a href="#bar">Bar</a></nav> ? |
| 20:59 | <JonathanNeal> | Yea, dropping the ul and li's. |
| 21:01 | <stevefaulkner> | JonathonNeal: i wouldn't use wist for 2 links but if you have a set of related links a list is the best way to group them |
| 21:01 | <JonathanNeal> | How would a <nav> fail to do this? |
| 21:02 | <stevefaulkner> | JonathanNeal: it does not convey a a list semantic in any browser |
| 21:03 | <JonathanNeal> | The nav element represents a section of a page that links to other pages or to parts within the page: a section with navigation links. |
| 21:03 | <JonathanNeal> | I don't see how sub-organizing those links into a list is necessary. It could be done, certainly, but it's no longer necessary. |
| 21:04 | <stevefaulkner> | JonathanNeal: what it says it does in the spec is a fiction unless the semantics are expressed via browsers |
| 21:05 | <JonathanNeal> | Well, when I tested it with VoiceOver and Jaws I did not experience a loss. |
| 21:06 | <JonathanNeal> | It certainly doesn't break any semantics. |
| 21:06 | <stevefaulkner> | JonathanNeal: a list conveys explicitly a set of items, <nav> or any other grouping semantic does not |
| 21:10 | <stevefaulkner> | JonathanNeal: <nav> provides less structural information as implemented and in some browsers (IE for example) does not even convey the fact that its navigation links |
| 21:11 | <stevefaulkner> | <nav role="navigation> has better support across browsers and AT |
| 21:22 | <JonathanNeal> | Sure, though isn't <nav> supposed to inherently have that role? |
| 21:30 | <zcorpan> | annevk: is there a place already where url test cases should live? |
| 21:33 | <annevk> | prolly the same place AryehGregor ends up putting the encoding tests? |
| 21:33 | <annevk> | https://github.com/annevk/url has some tests fwiw, mostly copied from WebKit with some changes |
| 21:33 | <annevk> | (changes are annotated) |
| 21:34 | <annevk> | (but that parser does not yet have file URL parsing) |
| 21:35 | <annevk> | Why does http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html not mention the Unicode restrictions made in the parser? |
| 21:35 | <annevk> | E.g. disallowing U+3FFFF |
| 21:49 | <annevk> | Context: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19743 |
| 21:53 | <jgraham> | Things that make me sad: specs without dfn.js |
| 21:54 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: Ah, convention! That's the word I've been looking for! |
| 21:55 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: Regarding my XXX comments: What if an image is tagged "image/blahblah" but is actually "image/gif"? |
| 21:57 | <jgraham> | Hmm, so why is the index argumetn of HTMLTableElement.insertRow(index) optional? |
| 21:57 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: Would <code> also be appropriate for the "Bytes in ASCII" values? |
| 21:57 | <jgraham> | Does it match IE? |
| 21:57 | jgraham | doesn't have IE |
| 21:57 | <jgraham> | Apparently it doesn't match anything else |
| 21:58 | <jgraham> | Oh, maybe it matches WebKit |
| 22:04 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: Why <code title> rather than <code>? |
| 22:13 | <stevefaulkner> | JonathanNeal: yes, but when it will be implemented across browsers and platforms is anybodies guess > http://html5accessibility.com |
| 22:18 | <JonathanNeal> | stevefaulkner: that's true, and Firefox only forwards the role right now, but what accessibility software is using ARIA roles like nav? |
| 22:18 | <JonathanNeal> | That's not a remark meant to be contrary, I'm really curious. |
| 22:21 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: So, are you saying it's not necessary to explicitly state that byte-reading should begin with byte 0? |
| 22:22 | <stevefaulkner> | JonathanNeal: all main screen readers support navigation via ARIA landmark roles, here is some data from a almost a year ago http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/landmarks.html support has improved further since then |
| 22:22 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: I'm saying that, and byte 0 is poor wording as one might take it to mean byte 0x00 |
| 22:23 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: <code title> to avoid accidental linking |
| 22:23 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: How do I ensure that reading does not begin at some arbitrary point within the resource? |
| 22:24 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: I have not seen <code> be linked or otherwise marked up differently anywhere (unlike, e.g., <span>). In what situation does that happen? |
| 22:24 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: Read from resource into /buffer/, starting at the first byte, and run these steps:, maybe? |
| 22:24 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: <dfn>x</dfn> <code>x</code> |
| 22:24 | <GPHemsley> | that's confusing |
| 22:24 | <GPHemsley> | (the latter) |
| 22:25 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: Did you test Content-Type:image/somethingunsupported with an image whose actual type is image/gif? |
| 22:25 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: <code> links just like <span> |
| 22:26 | <GPHemsley> | I haven't tested anything yet |
| 22:26 | <GPHemsley> | I'm just working with the existing wording at this point |
| 22:27 | <JonathanNeal> | stevefaulkner: have experience with JAWS? I can't get it to read Internet Explorer pages to me. |
| 22:27 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: I'm pretty sure that's why the wording is that way |
| 22:27 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: because it's not sniffed in that case |
| 22:29 | <stevefaulkner> | JonathanNeal: yeah, but could be many reasons, try refreshing the page, also try insert+z to turn virtual cursor off and the same to turn back on after pause, that refreshes JAWS virtual buffer may help... |
| 22:29 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: Frankly, I'm somewhat confused as to why images are sniffed at all. Basically, the algorithm is only sniffing around the arbitrary image types that the UA supports. |
| 22:30 | <GPHemsley> | but I'll look into it further later |
| 22:30 | <annevk> | because people put a PNG on the web with an image/gif media type |
| 22:30 | <annevk> | or a PNG with a image/x-icon media type (I've done that and took me years to notice because it just worked) |
| 22:31 | <annevk> | and don't try to find logic, that's not the way this works |
| 22:39 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: anyway, have fun :) bedtime here |
| 22:39 | <GPHemsley> | ah, alright |
| 22:39 | <GPHemsley> | g'night |
| 22:46 | <JonathanNeal> | JAWS 14 reports <nav> in IE8 as "navigation region", without role="navigation". |