| 02:12 | GPHemsley | grumbles something about fonts that annevk already grumbled a year and a half ago. |
| 02:13 | <GPHemsley> | Does anyone know of any images that do not use an "image/" MIME type? |
| 02:14 | <GPHemsley> | (Perhaps because they are part of an "application/" container, à la "application/ogg"?) |
| 02:19 | <Hixie> | application/xml ? |
| 02:19 | <GPHemsley> | Hixie: What images are in that format? |
| 02:19 | <Hixie> | SVG? |
| 02:19 | <GPHemsley> | I'm under the impression that uses image/svg+xml |
| 02:19 | <Hixie> | it uses many things |
| 02:20 | <GPHemsley> | But it doesn't really matter, because XML MIME types don't get sniffed. |
| 02:20 | <Hixie> | application/pdf? |
| 02:20 | <Hixie> | depends what you mean by "image", i guess |
| 02:20 | <GPHemsley> | yeah, I suppose |
| 02:20 | <Hixie> | ascii art images can be sent as text/plain |
| 02:20 | <GPHemsley> | heh |
| 02:20 | <GPHemsley> | probably not that |
| 02:21 | <GPHemsley> | Hixie: Have a look at mimesniff when you get a chance. I've cleaned most of it up, I think. |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | remind me monday |
| 02:21 | <GPHemsley> | alright |
| 02:22 | <GPHemsley> | hopefully by then "most" will be closer to "all" |
| 02:22 | <Hixie> | cool :-) |
| 02:22 | <Hixie> | i wish html was easy like that :-P |
| 02:22 | <GPHemsley> | (I still have to deal with sections 7.2 and 7.7.) |
| 02:22 | <GPHemsley> | Yeah, I don't know how you do it |
| 02:23 | <Hixie> | i get paid |
| 02:23 | <GPHemsley> | ah, there's that |
| 02:23 | GPHemsley | doesn't |
| 02:23 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 02:23 | <GPHemsley> | (by anybody) |
| 02:23 | <GPHemsley> | (for anything) |
| 02:23 | <annevk> | abarth: http://code.google.com/p/google-url/issues/detail?id=32 not the best report, but there you go |
| 02:24 | <Hixie> | GPHemsley: you at school/university, or just unemployed? |
| 02:24 | <GPHemsley> | just unemployed at the moment |
| 02:25 | <GPHemsley> | I left school at the end of spring semester, and how long unemployment lasts dictates whether I go back to school to do something else. |
| 02:25 | <GPHemsley> | So, you know, if you've got money to throw at me... ;) |
| 02:25 | <Hixie> | i wish |
| 02:27 | <Hixie> | (highly recommend higher education if you do want a job at a company like google, btw) |
| 02:27 | <GPHemsley> | I've got a Bachelor's and a year of grad school. How much does that buy me? |
| 02:27 | <zewt> | heh, when we were hiring, people with more than a CS only made me think "did they stay in school longer because they couldn't find a job?" |
| 02:27 | <Hixie> | GPHemsley: more than i have :-) |
| 02:28 | <GPHemsley> | Well, the offer for an offer is on the table. I'm enjoying this work, but it'd sure be nice to get paid while I do it. |
| 02:29 | <GPHemsley> | Feel free to spread that around. ;) |
| 02:29 | <GPHemsley> | In the meantime, I'm gonna go watch TV. |
| 03:10 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 03:10 | <annevk> | so Internet Explorer does not include the leading slash in pathname |
| 03:11 | <annevk> | and between Internet Explorer 6 and 7 they swapped \ for / in file: URLs |
| 03:12 | <annevk> | and the Windows drive thing is [a-z][:| |
| 03:12 | <annevk> | ] |
| 03:12 | <annevk> | with | being converted to : |
| 03:12 | <annevk> | oh, also [A-Z] and it's case-sensitive |
| 03:12 | <annevk> | not too bad I guess |
| 03:14 | <annevk> | http://netrenderer.com/ ++ |
| 04:13 | <MikeSmith> | oh wow |
| 04:13 | <MikeSmith> | didn't know about http://netrenderer.com/ |
| 07:22 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Without checking, I think the internal release email called it "the Opera Critic", and it says "Opera Critic" at the top of the page |
| 07:23 | <jgraham> | But I dunno. jl never calls it that |
| 07:24 | <asmodai> | Cute name that way |
| 08:54 | <MikeSmith> | was there some point within the last couple years when Hixie added more named character references? |
| 08:54 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., $ and − ? |
| 08:59 | <MikeSmith> | if now find http://html5.org/r/5557 but that's not what I'm looking for |
| 08:59 | <annevk> | Hixie imports the references from whatever the MathML comes up with |
| 08:59 | <annevk> | Math WG* |
| 08:59 | <annevk> | so if they make changes, those would affect HTML |
| 09:00 | <MikeSmith> | ok yeah I remember that now |
| 09:00 | <MikeSmith> | so I wonder if they made some changes upstream |
| 09:01 | <MikeSmith> | I'm asking because the validator source is missing some |
| 09:01 | <MikeSmith> | I guess it might make sense for the the part of the validator source that handles this to be imported and generated from the Math WG source |
| 09:02 | <MikeSmith> | I am pretty sure Henri already is generating the source |
| 09:02 | <MikeSmith> | but whatever script he's using to do that is not in the repo |
| 09:04 | <annevk> | weird that the related bug is marked NEEDSINFO while it was in fact fixed (for the multi-code point entities) |
| 09:05 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: I guess I'd ask hsivonen then |
| 09:05 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 09:07 | Ms2ger | finds http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/entities.json |
| 09:10 | <MikeSmith> | ah yeah |
| 09:11 | <MikeSmith> | which reminds me Hixie must have some other list that he uses along with the upstream Math source |
| 09:11 | <MikeSmith> | but the Match source doesn't know anything about semicolon-less character references |
| 09:12 | <MikeSmith> | but which that entities.json is aware of |
| 09:14 | <annevk> | So masinter mentioned that Dave Thaler from Microsoft registered a whole bunch of URI schemes as provisional |
| 09:14 | <MikeSmith> | looking at the cvs log for http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007/htmlmathml-f.ent I see the only substantive change made to it was in February 2010 when David added NotGreaterFullEqual to it |
| 09:14 | <annevk> | http://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes.html is a whole lot more up to date now |
| 09:14 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: yeah he told me that too |
| 09:14 | <MikeSmith> | in fact that was very recent I think |
| 09:15 | <MikeSmith> | I vaguely remember seeing mail about it |
| 09:17 | <asmodai> | morning folks |
| 09:18 | <Ms2ger> | Morning |
| 09:20 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: http://docs.sqlalchemy.org/en/rel_0_7/core/engines.html#database-urls - the problem here is that browsers only treat certain schemes as having that syntax |
| 09:20 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: I'm not sure if we can reconcile that somehow |
| 09:20 | <Ms2ger> | Dunno if we need to |
| 09:21 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: I guess it would be nice if we could so these things "would just work" in JavaScript |
| 09:21 | <annevk> | Apart from this another uncertain bit seems to be whether <query> needs to be parsed separately or not for non-relative schemes |
| 09:21 | <asmodai> | Did the definition of "talisman" to mean essentially a nop start with the HTML specs or was it already in tech use before? I never saw it before until I encountered it in relation to xmlns. |
| 09:22 | <annevk> | Apparently some UAs treat about:blank?test as about:blank and others do not |
| 09:23 | <annevk> | Chrome/Safari don't; Opera/Gecko do |
| 09:23 | <MikeSmith> | asmodai: Is that used in the current HTML spec? |
| 09:24 | <asmodai> | I encountered in various places, e.g. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/html:xmlns |
| 09:24 | asmodai | checks standards |
| 09:24 | <annevk> | asmodai: "tech use" dunno, as far as web specs I read goes, I believe Hixie coined it |
| 09:24 | <asmodai> | annevk: Ah, that might account for it. |
| 09:25 | <annevk> | and it's still there in the global attributes section |
| 09:25 | <asmodai> | MikeSmith: Doesn't seem to be in any specs as far as I can quickly see, mostly talks about standards |
| 09:25 | <asmodai> | annevk: I like the term though. |
| 09:25 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: it's just used about xmlns? |
| 09:26 | MikeSmith | reads the global attributes section |
| 09:26 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: yeah |
| 09:26 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 09:26 | <asmodai> | annevk: Ah yes, see it now |
| 09:26 | <MikeSmith> | asmodai: it's just a word :) there's other stuff more worthy of hate |
| 09:27 | <asmodai> | MikeSmith: Haha, I am not hating, I like it. :) |
| 09:27 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 09:27 | <asmodai> | MikeSmith: Just hadn't encountered it before and wondered if I missed some tech terminology :) |
| 09:27 | <MikeSmith> | somehow I misread your "like" as "hate" |
| 09:27 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: maybe if it keeps coming up we could make the "relative scheme" list dynamic from a JS perspective |
| 09:28 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: not entirely sure if that's desirable though |
| 09:28 | <asmodai> | MikeSmith: *grin* daijoubu yo! :D |
| 09:28 | <asmodai> | I encountered it because I am currently messing with SVG inline in HTML 5 |
| 09:28 | <MikeSmith> | asmodai: I think it was used before in that context, but can't really recall |
| 09:28 | <annevk> | we used to have a funny thing for the / in <img/> too, but that got removed |
| 09:29 | <asmodai> | MikeSmith: For a parsing/tokenizing PoV it's clearer than calling it a nop. |
| 09:29 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 09:29 | <annevk> | "Then, if the element is one of the void elements, then there may be a single U+002F SOLIDUS character. This character has no effect except to appease the markup gods. As this character is therefore just a symbol of faith, atheists should omit it." |
| 09:30 | <asmodai> | rofl |
| 09:30 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: so is it preferable to have about:blank?test treated as about:blank or it as case where it really doesn't matter as long as UAs just treat it the same? |
| 09:30 | <MikeSmith> | hah yeah the "atheists should omit it" bit |
| 09:30 | <asmodai> | annevk: I can see why that got removed, but dang, that's plain brilliant. |
| 09:31 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: Chrome WONTFIXED their bug on it (no compat concerns), Gecko has an about:* page that uses the query string functionality, and I cannot test Internet Explorer |
| 09:31 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 09:32 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: It might be nice to support it so about:unicorn can support a color parameter |
| 09:32 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 09:33 | <annevk> | but it does not make sense for javascript: and data: |
| 09:33 | <asmodai> | annevk: I'd propose Valve's balloonicorn: http://store.valvesoftware.com/product_images/main_images/balloonicorn_main_01.png |
| 09:33 | <asmodai> | :) |
| 09:33 | <annevk> | but they could be special cased in either the API or elsewhere |
| 09:34 | <annevk> | asmodai: haha; I need to find a public domain unicorn or create one... |
| 09:34 | <annevk> | asmodai: preferably SVG |
| 09:34 | <asmodai> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Invisible_Pink_Unicorn.svg |
| 09:34 | <annevk> | heh, just found the same :) |
| 09:34 | <MikeSmith> | ACID4 should be unicorn-based |
| 09:34 | <asmodai> | annevk: :D |
| 09:35 | <MikeSmith> | btw I found Henri's named-character-references generator code |
| 09:35 | <MikeSmith> | http://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/file/default/translator-src/nu/validator/htmlparser/generator/GenerateNamedCharacters.java#l40 |
| 09:36 | <MikeSmith> | uses a regexp to parse the table in the spec |
| 09:37 | <MikeSmith> | not sure it's worth switching it to do elsewise so I guess I'll just re-run it and see what I get |
| 09:38 | <annevk> | so yeah, with some cleanup I think we could use that SVG file |
| 09:38 | <annevk> | it's about time the platform has native unicorn support |
| 09:40 | <asmodai> | lol |
| 09:52 | <asmodai> | annevk: I predict bug reports demanding the unicorn be replaced by sharks with lasers |
| 10:13 | <annevk> | http://html5.org/temp/unicorn.svg |
| 10:13 | <annevk> | I wonder if there's some tool that clean up those coordinates |
| 10:13 | <annevk> | can* |
| 10:24 | <asmodai> | Hahaha |
| 10:24 | <asmodai> | Awesome Anne |
| 10:25 | <asmodai> | annevk: https://github.com/RazrFalcon/SVGCleaner ? |
| 10:29 | <annevk> | asmodai: can you maybe run that? I don't have the right OS |
| 10:29 | <annevk> | http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6694 is for about it seems |
| 10:30 | <annevk> | but it does not deal with e.g. about:BL%41NK not working |
| 10:31 | <annevk> | so I guess it's not useful |
| 10:31 | <asmodai> | annevk: Neither do I at the moment >_< |
| 10:31 | <asmodai> | need to reinstall this entire box, only have console access on FreeBSD atm |
| 10:31 | <asmodai> | and no VM around either |
| 10:31 | <annevk> | "The about:blank URI references a blank page." oh my what an idiots |
| 10:31 | <annevk> | they removed everything that was useful about that spec |
| 10:32 | <annevk> | asmodai: no worries, this can wait |
| 10:32 | <annevk> | should probably do host parsing first anyway before adding easter eggs |
| 10:32 | <asmodai> | *grin* |
| 10:32 | <annevk> | (and defining schemes in general) |
| 10:33 | <asmodai> | annevk: When they say blank page, do they mean a blank HTML page? |
| 10:33 | <annevk> | well the first definition was a resource whose MIME type is text/html and encoding is utf-8 and consists of the empty string |
| 10:33 | <annevk> | that's the one you want |
| 10:33 | <annevk> | now all that is undefined |
| 10:33 | <asmodai> | Yea |
| 10:34 | <asmodai> | because blank could also mean simply an initialized panel with no content whatsoever |
| 10:34 | <asmodai> | panel as in UI element |
| 10:38 | <asmodai> | You'd think people would've learnt from the past and just be explicit about stuff like this in specs. |
| 10:41 | <annevk> | it was explicit and then it was removed |
| 10:41 | <annevk> | http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-holsten-about-uri-scheme-06#section-5.1.1 |
| 10:43 | <asmodai> | annevk: I wonder what people have against explicitly defininf it. |
| 10:43 | <asmodai> | defining |
| 10:43 | <asmodai> | Then again, the IETF also isn't what it used to be since politics entered it |
| 10:46 | <annevk> | dunno either, I'm not really interested in following their mailing lists as I usually end up point-by-point sniping rather than getting somewhere |
| 10:48 | <annevk> | Lachy's older draft had the same problem btw in theoretically working with percent-escaped bytes |
| 11:03 | <asmodai> | annevk: having done compiler work, I just know how annoying a spec is that leaves stuff hanging and dangling. It's like people don't like clarity at times |
| 11:05 | <MikeSmith> | http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-642-32759-9_26 "Reachability Analysis of the HTML5 Parser Specification and Its Application to Compatibility Testing" |
| 11:18 | <asmodai> | hot dang |
| 11:18 | <asmodai> | http://www.audiotool.com/app |
| 11:19 | <asmodai> | that's some impressive use of HTML5 |
| 11:49 | <AryehGregor> | MikeSmith, so did they file bugs? :) |
| 11:50 | <MikeSmith> | AryehGregor: one of the authors posted a question to the whatwg list about the adoption-agency algorithm |
| 12:26 | <annevk42> | http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/apps-discuss/current/msg05435.html "in reality no sane software developer should rely on the semantics of any particular “about” token" |
| 12:26 | <annevk42> | Tim flipping bozo bits again |
| 12:26 | <annevk42> | I'm not sure why I |
| 12:27 | <annevk42> | 'm going through the archives, but it seemed potentially interesting to find out why they fucked up so badly |
| 12:34 | <annevk42> | It seems it was removed somewhere around http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/apps-discuss/current/msg03120.html when it was made a WG item but there's no mention of why |
| 12:40 | <annevk42> | http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/apps-discuss/current/msg02863.html does not mention it either |
| 12:41 | <annevk42> | but does seem to indicate why Lachy gave up on them |
| 13:04 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Interesting, given nowhere else on github does it call it that! |
| 13:06 | <gsnedders> | My monitor is… clicking. |
| 13:11 | <Philip`_> | MikeSmith: About semicolon-less character references: are you looking for a file like http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/entities-legacy.inc ? |
| 13:14 | <Ms2ger> | Hey Philip`! |
| 13:52 | <[tm]> | Philip`_: yeah, that (about character references) |
| 13:52 | <[tm]> | thanks |
| 13:54 | <[tm]> | though I've since figured out there's no bug in Henri's code |
| 13:54 | <[tm]> | I was just misunderstanding it |
| 14:38 | GPHemsley | wonders whether such a long document was required just to say that "about:blank" is blank. |
| 14:38 | <GPHemsley> | s/whether/why/, if you like |
| 14:40 | <Ms2ger> | "IETF" |
| 14:47 | <[tm]> | ha I see the author of the about blank rfc is that "sm" dude |
| 14:47 | <[tm]> | no wonder it's DOA |
| 15:25 | <Hixie> | annevk42: i think the use of "talisman" in the context of /> is actually hsivonen's, i would have called it something far less eloquent |
| 15:46 | <[tm]> | +1 to hsivonen way with words |
| 15:52 | <asmodai> | Ah, so hsivonen then? |
| 15:53 | <asmodai> | Still awesome. |
| 15:53 | <asmodai> | And I still have a tab open with that unicorn of anne's, heh |
| 16:27 | <jgraham> | So anyone at a university want to steal us a copy of the HTML5 testing paper? |
| 16:28 | <charl> | jgraham: will any university do? |
| 16:28 | <jgraham> | charl: Probably |
| 16:28 | <charl> | jgraham: html5 testing paper? what/where's that? |
| 16:28 | <jgraham> | Any one with a subscription to springer publications at least |
| 16:28 | <charl> | ah, ok |
| 16:28 | <jgraham> | http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-642-32759-9_26 |
| 16:28 | <charl> | i work at a university but i don't know about a subscription to that |
| 16:29 | <Ms2ger> | No access here either |
| 16:29 | <jgraham> | It's almost liek they don't want people reading their tuff |
| 16:29 | <jgraham> | *stuff |
| 16:29 | <zewt> | seems to me that if you're testing stuff and then not letting anyone see the results, motives come into question, heh |
| 16:30 | <charl> | the authors appear to be japanese? |
| 16:30 | <zewt> | since "improving the quality of things" plainly isn't the top priority, and if that's not the priority of testing ... |
| 16:31 | <charl> | looks more like somebody did research for their own benefit, not for the benefit of the web community |
| 16:35 | <jgraham> | Well sure, to a certain extent the point of doing research if you are an academic is that other academics will notice and give you a job where you can keep doing research |
| 16:35 | <jgraham> | There is more to it than that of course, but the current - much reviled - publication system is only really good for that purpose |
| 16:36 | <charl> | that is true but if the research doesn't have improvement in some way as a consequence, what's the point? |
| 16:36 | <Ms2ger> | Funding |
| 16:36 | <charl> | lol yeah |
| 16:36 | <charl> | pretty-much |
| 18:00 | <Philip`_> | jgraham: Apparently I'm still able to steal papers from there |
| 18:14 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: "All but two single-byte encodings have a unique index." What does that mean? |
| 19:09 | <annevk42> | SimonSapin: iso-8859-8 and iso-8859-8-i (iirc) have an identical index |
| 19:12 | <odinho_> | 05:13 < MikeSmith> didn't know about http://netrenderer.com/ < saved my bun for many years :P |
| 19:13 | <odinho_> | Although in the beginning I never remebered the name, so I always had to re-find it again. |
| 19:36 | <asmodai> | annevk42: Still have that unicorn open in a tab, remains awesome :) |
| 19:38 | <annevk42> | heh |
| 21:14 | <GPHemsley> | The mimesniff rewrite is almost unofficially complete. |
| 21:15 | <GPHemsley> | Reviews welcome as I tie up loose ends. |
| 21:15 | <GPHemsley> | (Then we can get to the real bug fixinging.) |
| 21:15 | <GPHemsley> | ing |
| 21:27 | <aleray> | hi, i'm using html5lib and lxml to tidy some html content. For some reason, when I parse the content into a tree, it escapes the colons from xmlns attributes |
| 21:28 | <aleray> | eg. xmlnsU0003Adct="http://purl.org/dc/terms/"; |
| 21:28 | <aleray> | why does it do it and how can I avoid this? |
| 21:31 | <annevk> | prolly because you parse HTML and use an XML-aware tree |
| 21:32 | <aleray> | annevk, thanks. what do you advise instead? |
| 21:33 | <annevk> | I guess you should use some tree structure that can deal with xmlns:dct |
| 21:33 | <annevk> | (with xmlns:dct not being in the XMLNS namespace, as is the case for HTML content) |
| 21:36 | <aleray> | annevk, what are the other tree structures possible? |
| 21:37 | <annevk> | maybe gsnedders can help you out there, it's been ages... |
| 21:37 | <aleray> | ok. Just foudn that http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12253791/html5lib-with-lxml-treebuilder-doesnt-parse-namespaces-correctly |
| 21:37 | <aleray> | reading... |
| 21:39 | <annevk> | the main problem though is using xmlns attributes in text/html content, that's just bogus |
| 21:41 | <aleray> | I'm gonna work with real webpages so that might happen unfortunatly |
| 21:45 | <aleray> | annevk, I basically want to write a rdfa spider. What would you advise regarding malformed html + rdfa pages? |
| 22:39 | <GPHemsley> | Does HTML have a stance on the Accept-Charset header? |
| 23:50 | <gsnedders> | aleray: Basically all the Python DOM impls don't support HTML DOMs, so you're basically stuck, even with alternate models like ElementTree. |
| 23:51 | <gsnedders> | aleray: If you're willing to take the perf hit, you could probably fork ElementTree quite easily to remove the checks |
