| 00:03 | jwalden | wonders what exactly http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/36895847700 is referring to |
| 00:04 | <TabAtkins> | jwalden: HTMLWG has two very private lists, where all the decisions about what actually gets merged into the spec appear to take place. |
| 00:05 | <jwalden> | so it's a gripe about those decisions not being in the open, or something? |
| 00:05 | <TabAtkins> | Yes. |
| 00:06 | <TabAtkins> | And not even being member-private, but team-private. |
| 00:06 | <Hixie> | it's more just an observation of how charters at the w3c are meaningless and only observed when it's convenient (the top line is a quote from the charter) |
| 00:07 | <jwalden> | :-) |
| 00:07 | <jwalden> | given the choice to laugh or cry, I laugh |
| 00:08 | <Hixie> | it's also implicitly a rebuke to those who say the whatwg is opaque and the w3c is more transparent :-) |
| 00:11 | <TabAtkins> | annevk: Someone in es-discuss suggests push() instead of append(), since the functionality parallels what push() does in arrays. |
| 00:12 | <Hixie> | can anyone prove that submit() does something synchronously? |
| 00:12 | <TabAtkins> | annevk: Also, it was pointed out that ES6's spread operator makes setAll()/appendAll() superfluous, as we can instead just make then n-ary and then spread will take care of when you've got an array of values to use. |
| 00:13 | <Hixie> | i guess just the navigation could be async |
| 00:13 | <TabAtkins> | That is, "u.set('foo', 1, 2, 3)" or "u.set('foo', ...[1,2,3])", so no need for "u.setAll('foo', [1,2,3])". |
| 00:14 | <zewt> | "...[1,2,3]"? they couldn't just steal python's *syntax instead of making up something new (if that's what it looks like)? |
| 00:14 | <Hixie> | ok i could tell if that's the case because if the nav was sync, then onbeforeunload would be called before submit() returns |
| 00:14 | <Hixie> | ok |
| 00:14 | <Hixie> | that's easy to test |
| 00:15 | <TabAtkins> | zewt: Pretty sure that syntax is stolen from another language, actually. |
| 00:15 | <TabAtkins> | (Python's is kinda dumb.) |
| 00:15 | <zewt> | not any language I know (and I know a decent number) |
| 00:16 | <Hixie> | aHA! it is async in chrome and sync in firefox |
| 00:16 | <Hixie> | and of course beforeunload doesn't fire in opera |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | because WHY WOULD WE NEED TO BE INTEROPERABLE |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | that would be too easy |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | anyone got IE handy? |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | for the tie breaker? |
| 00:18 | <zewt> | ie9 |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1946 |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | what are the three events in the log |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | after you click teh button |
| 00:19 | <zewt> | log: event "click" using interface "[object MouseEvent]" targetted at <INPUT>; bubbles; cancelable |
| 00:19 | <zewt> | log: event "beforeunload" using interface "[object BeforeUnloadEvent]" targetted at "[object Window]"; cancelable |
| 00:19 | <zewt> | log: event "click" using interface "[object MouseEvent]" targetted at <INPUT>; bubbles; cancelable |
| 00:19 | <Hixie> | cool, thanks |
| 00:19 | <Hixie> | ok, mozilla, you win this round |
| 00:20 | <zewt> | synchronous events :| |
| 00:20 | <Hixie> | this was just setting the stage for the real question, which is what happens when you submit the form from onbeforeunload |
| 00:20 | <Hixie> | if they were async that would be conveniently much easier |
| 00:21 | <Hixie> | but apparently easy isn't on the cards for today |
| 00:22 | <Hixie> | firefox apparently doesn't submit the form! |
| 00:22 | <Hixie> | zewt: if you're bored, see what IE does on http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1947 (but don't worry if you can't be bothered or are busy or whatever) |
| 00:23 | <Hixie> | looks like firefox stops all reentrant navigations during onbeforeunload |
| 00:23 | <Hixie> | interesting |
| 00:23 | <zewt> | log: event "click" using interface "[object MouseEvent]" targetted at <INPUT>; bubbles; cancelable |
| 00:23 | <zewt> | log: event "beforeunload" using interface "[object BeforeUnloadEvent]" targetted at "[object Window]"; cancelable |
| 00:23 | <zewt> | log: event "beforeunload" using interface "[object BeforeUnloadEvent]" targetted at "[object Window]"; cancelable |
| 00:24 | <zewt> | log: event "click" using interface "[object MouseEvent]" targetted at <INPUT>; bubbles; cancelable |
| 00:24 | <zewt> | o/~ spam o/~ |
| 00:24 | <Hixie> | and the rendered view points to what? |
| 00:24 | <Hixie> | nested live dom viewer, software.hixie.ch home page, other? |
| 00:24 | <zewt> | nested |
| 00:24 | <Hixie> | wow, interop |
| 00:24 | <Hixie> | sweet, thanks |
| 00:25 | <Hixie> | zewt: just for completeness, same result for http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1948 ? |
| 00:25 | <Hixie> | (changing the form to a location setter) |
| 00:26 | <zewt> | yeah |
| 00:26 | <Hixie> | awesome |
| 00:28 | <zewt> | location.reload too? |
| 00:28 | <Hixie> | sure, if you want |
| 00:29 | <zewt> | up to you, just checking |
| 00:29 | <Hixie> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1949 should be it |
| 00:30 | <zewt> | that one lands back on the original view, and logs 6 events (click, beforeunload, beforeunload, click, beforeunload, beforeunload) |
| 00:31 | <Hixie> | different than gecko |
| 00:31 | <Hixie> | interesting |
| 00:35 | <Hixie> | interesting, gecko even kills navs in onbeforeunload for history.back() |
| 00:35 | <Hixie> | (not gonna ask you to test that cos it's a pain to set up) |
| 00:35 | <Hixie> | wait that wasn't firefox, duh |
| 00:36 | <Hixie> | twisty maze of browsers, all alike |
| 00:36 | <Hixie> | same result, ok |
| 07:46 | <jordanbtucker> | hi everyone |
| 07:47 | <jordanbtucker> | I've got a question about adjusting foreign attributes for a token at tree-construction.html#adjust-foreign-attributes |
| 07:49 | <jordanbtucker> | at tokenization.html#tokenization the spec says that tag tokens have attributes and those attribute have a name and a value |
| 07:50 | <jordanbtucker> | it doesn't say anything about those attributes having namespaces |
| 07:50 | <jordanbtucker> | but at tree-construction.html#adjust-foreign-attributes the spec says that the token attributes should be made namespaced attributes |
| 07:51 | <jordanbtucker> | i assume this means that the attributes added to the element that will be created from the token should be namespaced |
| 07:54 | <jordanbtucker> | but then introduction.html#html-vs-xhtml says that namespaces cannot be represented by the HTML syntax, but the DOM can represent them |
| 07:56 | <jordanbtucker> | in my head, this is a disconnect: the HTML syntax can't represent namespaces, yet parsed attributes are created as namespaces attribute in the DOM by the HTML parser |
| 07:57 | <jordanbtucker> | *namespaced attributes |
| 08:10 | <SimonSapin> | jordanbtucker: yes. This is just like element names. <p> ends up with a XHTML namespace, <svg> with a SVG namespace, but neither namespace is represented in syntax |
| 08:16 | <jordanbtucker> | thanks. i understand that better now. i just didn't get it the first few times i read it |
| 09:38 | <annevk> | hmm url.query = url2.query; should happen? |
| 09:39 | <annevk> | I guess either it should magically clone url2.query on assignment or ignore assignment or throw |
| 10:02 | <annevk> | TabAtkins: it's not called push() because of FormData http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/#formdata (and we use append() in e.g. the DOM as well to mean the same thing) |
| 10:02 | <annevk> | TabAtkins: but yeah, you can argue this one either way :/ |
| 10:03 | <annevk> | TabAtkins: arity works, with appending behavior for set if there's more values given than values on the object for the given name? |
| 10:31 | <Ms2ger> | "341 e-mails remaining", lowest since April 2010 |
| 10:38 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Sorry, I was not |
| 10:49 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: do you know what the "behind" thing means? |
| 10:50 | <annevk> | So I guess given the bug Hixie pointed yesterday "query state" will actually need to do buffering before percent encoding because otherwise legacy encodings will go wrong |
| 10:51 | <annevk> | legacy encodings, fuck you |
| 10:51 | <Ms2ger> | var expected = -(start/(runwayEnd-runwayStart))*(runwayNow-runwayStart)+start; |
| 10:51 | <Ms2ger> | var delta = (expected - actual).toFixed(0); |
| 10:51 | <Ms2ger> | if (delta > 0) |
| 10:51 | <Ms2ger> | return delta /*+ s*/ + ' ahead'; |
| 10:51 | <Ms2ger> | else |
| 10:51 | <Ms2ger> | return -delta /*+ s*/ + ' behind'; |
| 10:51 | <Ms2ger> | Mm |
| 10:52 | <Ms2ger> | Looks like he wants to get to zero by the start of the new year |
| 10:52 | <annevk> | no Christmas for Hixie then? :p |
| 10:53 | <Ms2ger> | He'll just act like everyone is celebrating his birthday early :) |
| 11:37 | <MikeSmith> | TabAtkins: created bugzilla component for CSS Display |
| 11:37 | <MikeSmith> | https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=CSS&component=Display&list_id=2660 |
| 11:37 | <MikeSmith> | sorry for the delay |
| 11:40 | <MikeSmith> | hey conformance-checking fans: I integrated support into the validator for allowing you to filter out any error/warning/info messages you don't want to see |
| 11:40 | <MikeSmith> | http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/ |
| 11:40 | <MikeSmith> | please try it and let me know if you find any problems |
| 11:40 | <MikeSmith> | this is based on Keegan Street's code |
| 11:41 | <MikeSmith> | though I rewrote quite a lot of it due to it relying on JQuery |
| 11:43 | <MikeSmith> | since it didn't seem prudent to add a JQuery dependency when it adds more than the current combined size of the whole JS + HTML + CSS for the existing UI |
| 11:45 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: do you think we can remove the status column on http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions ? |
| 11:45 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: saw you comment about that |
| 11:45 | <MikeSmith> | lemme look |
| 11:46 | <MikeSmith> | hmm yeah |
| 11:46 | <MikeSmith> | you're right |
| 11:46 | <MikeSmith> | it's not needed by anybody |
| 11:46 | <MikeSmith> | given the way the page is already organized |
| 11:47 | tantek | takes a look at http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions |
| 11:47 | <tantek> | yikes |
| 11:47 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: would it break the scripts from validator.nu? |
| 11:47 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: no because we are not parsing that page and extracting anything from it |
| 11:47 | <MikeSmith> | we just eyeball it |
| 11:48 | <MikeSmith> | the supported values are hardcoded |
| 11:48 | <MikeSmith> | enumerated |
| 11:48 | <MikeSmith> | we add new ones manually to the source when needed |
| 11:49 | <annevk> | oh |
| 11:50 | <annevk> | hmm I guess I won't change it for now and let Hixie sort it out |
| 11:51 | <annevk> | the "status" thing is a concept HTML defines, although it's inconsistent with that page |
| 15:23 | <annevk> | http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-http2-00#section-3.2.1 if you're going to include scheme/host/port/path, why not just pass a URL? |
| 15:23 | <Ms2ger> | Because there are no URLs, only IRIs |
| 15:28 | <annevk> | they do reference some obsoleted URL RFC though |
| 15:28 | <annevk> | maybe not enough IETF party line rewrite yet |
| 21:20 | <SimonSapin> | Is there a way not to get so many captchas when editing wiki.whatwg.org? |
| 21:30 | <Hixie> | i never get captchas... dunno |
| 21:30 | <Hixie> | GPHemsley? |
| 21:34 | <Hixie> | nessy: yt? |
| 21:38 | <GPHemsley> | SimonSapin: Wait a few days. :) |
| 21:39 | <SimonSapin> | GPHemsley: ok, thanks |
| 22:13 | <SimonSapin> | oh great … the grammars in HTTP implicitly allow white space … sometimes |