| 02:09 | <nattokirai> | Hixie: sent you some comments on canvas text styles |
| 02:09 | <nattokirai> | Hixie: related to the FontLoader object |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | nattokirai: thanks |
| 03:07 | <hendry> | is there a good place to report cross-browser SVG wierdness to ? http://neon.webconverger.com/logo/ confuses me so much that I don't think I could write an intelligible bug report |
| 03:08 | <heycam> | hendry, in Firefox at least, SVG documents in an <img> are not allowed to reference any external resources |
| 03:09 | <heycam> | that would be at least why in the <img> in the second set of tests you have there doesn't work |
| 03:10 | <hendry> | heycam: that explains it I think. Stangely the top three SVG instances just "started working" with the Web font. Yesterday they were not working. Maybe it's a problem with my site. |
| 03:11 | <heycam> | hendry, I don't know why the top ones should work -- they don't import the font in the .svg file? |
| 03:11 | <heycam> | (unless you installed the font locally?) |
| 03:11 | <hendry> | heycam: that's correct |
| 03:11 | <heycam> | I like the font btw :) |
| 03:11 | <hendry> | the top three work for me right now, I think because of the Google Web font import |
| 03:12 | <hendry> | (i think) |
| 03:12 | <hendry> | in 23.0.1271.95 Chrome |
| 03:12 | <heycam> | the @font-face in the top level document shouldn't leak into the child <object> |
| 03:13 | <heycam> | for me none of the top three work in CHrome |
| 03:13 | <heycam> | (25.0.1354.0) |
| 03:14 | <hendry> | http://neon.webconverger.com/logo/object.html is working for me in 23.0.1271.95 Chrome |
| 03:15 | <hendry> | but strangely it didn't work yesterday, but this morning it does. So I am so confused right now |
| 03:15 | <heycam> | not for me |
| 03:15 | <heycam> | you didn't install the font locally did you? :) |
| 03:15 | <hendry> | heycam: OH THAT'S IT |
| 03:16 | <hendry> | it's here /usr/share/fonts/TTF/BadScript-Regular.ttf |
| 03:16 | <hendry> | thanks heycam! |
| 03:16 | <heycam> | heh |
| 03:16 | <heycam> | np |
| 03:17 | <hendry> | i think i have noticed tools like Inkscape and Illustrator not using '@font-face { font-family: Bad Script; src: url(BadScript-Regular.ttf) format("truetype"); }' |
| 03:18 | <hendry> | so hence SVGs using fonts are often "made into objects" for portability IIUC ? |
| 03:18 | <hendry> | which sucks a lot |
| 03:18 | <hendry> | wondering if my observation is valid |
| 03:21 | <heycam> | do you mean they convert text to paths? |
| 03:21 | <hendry> | heycam: yes, that's the right terminology :) |
| 03:21 | <heycam> | yeah, that does suck |
| 03:21 | <heycam> | one thing I want to add to the SVG spec is a way of associating some text with arbitrary graphics |
| 03:22 | <heycam> | to say that the graphics is the visual representation of that text |
| 03:22 | <heycam> | which could be handy for one-off fancy text that doesn't require a whole font |
| 03:23 | <heycam> | <text>Hello <tgraphics href="#some-g-element">fancy</tgraphics></text> or something |
| 03:23 | <hendry> | not sure what you mean. could you make an anology with HTML? image replacement? are the graphics rasterised... |
| 03:24 | <hendry> | anyway I'm a SVG newbie |
| 03:24 | <hendry> | heycam: i've found https://github.com/svg/svgo a good tool of late. not sure if you've seen it |
| 03:25 | <hendry> | i'm trying to "un-path" this huge SVG at http://smrt.dabase.com/ in some sane way :/ |
| 03:31 | <heycam> | hendry, just meant that if you have some fancy graphics you want to be treated as text (like if Inkscape has converted the text to paths, to avoid needing a font), you could do that |
| 03:34 | <hendry> | heycam: so you have a "backup layer" to convert back to text if one for whatever reason converted text to path ? IIUC? |
| 03:35 | <heycam> | hendry, yes, so that search engines can see it, and you can still select and copy/paste it |
| 03:37 | <hendry> | heycam: that would be sensible. |
| 03:38 | <hendry> | I'm surprised that Inkscape/Adobe don't try deal with this problem. AFAICT some SVGs are HUGE thanks to 'converted text to Paths' |
| 03:41 | <hendry> | https://github.com/svg/svgo/issues/71 - hoping a tool can fix the problem ;) |
| 03:42 | <heycam> | for space saving, they might be able to convert individual glyphs to paths, then <use> them in multiple places |
| 03:42 | <hendry> | not sure what you mean by glyphs, the PNG bits in the SVG? |
| 03:42 | <hendry> | oh wait |
| 03:43 | <hendry> | i got it |
| 03:43 | <hendry> | that's a good comment |
| 03:43 | <hendry> | heycam: added https://github.com/svg/svgo/issues/71#issuecomment-11180931 |
| 03:44 | <hendry> | heycam: even though i'm using font tag in the SVGs here http://neon.webconverger.com/logo/, I can't select the text, which is a bit sad. |
| 03:45 | <hendry> | heycam: sorry, now I can. On non-img embeds |
| 04:32 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith_: any idea what component i'm supposed to use to file bugs on the htmlwg html5 spec that should be fixed before it gets to CR? |
| 04:33 | <MikeSmith_> | Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=HTML%20WG |
| 04:33 | <MikeSmith_> | I think |
| 04:34 | <Hixie> | which component though? |
| 04:34 | <MikeSmith_> | oops, sorry |
| 04:34 | <MikeSmith_> | just "HTML spec" |
| 04:37 | <Hixie> | k |
| 04:38 | <Hixie> | what's the CR component for? it has a bunch of bugs |
| 04:38 | <Hixie> | (btw, the idea of a component per milestone kinda misses the point of the "target milestone" and "version" fields in bugzilla...) |
| 04:40 | <Hixie> | ok https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20319 |
| 04:40 | <Hixie> | hopefully the htmlwg will work out what the fix should be so i don't have to |
| 04:44 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: dunno why we have a CR component already, nor why people have already filed bugs in it |
| 04:44 | <MikeSmith> | I am equally confused |
| 04:45 | <MikeSmith> | I don't ask questions -- I just push the buttons when requested |
| 04:45 | <MikeSmith> | garbage in, garbage out |
| 04:46 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: wow that's quite a bug |
| 04:46 | <MikeSmith> | you found that yourself? Or somebody else reported it? |
| 04:46 | <Hixie> | lord no |
| 04:46 | <Hixie> | someone reported it on the whatwg list |
| 04:47 | <Hixie> | see most recent e-mail to the whatwg list (from me) |
| 04:49 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: ah yeah that's from the guy who wrote automation to generate test cases |
| 04:49 | <Hixie> | nice |
| 04:49 | <MikeSmith> | so far he wrote it for only 24 elements I think |
| 05:01 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: http://www.score.is.tsukuba.ac.jp/~minamide/papers/minamide-FM2012.pdf |
| 05:01 | <MikeSmith> | "Reachability Analysis of the HTML5 Parser |
| 05:01 | <MikeSmith> | Speci cation and its Application to |
| 05:01 | <MikeSmith> | Compatibility Testing" |
| 05:03 | <MikeSmith_> | "We have developed a reachability analyzer for the HTML5 parser speci - cation based on the translation to a conditional pushdown system and on the reachability analysis on it. A nontrivial subset of the tree-construction stage con- sisting of 24 elements and 9 modes is formalized in our speci cation language." |
| 05:04 | <Hixie> | never thought people would be writing academic papers about my work |
| 05:04 | <Hixie> | that's just weird |
| 05:05 | <MikeSmith_> | heh |
| 05:05 | <MikeSmith_> | it's pretty cool, what they did |
| 05:06 | <MikeSmith_> | has a very practical application in spite of being academic |
| 05:06 | <Hixie> | most academic work does :-) |
| 05:07 | <MikeSmith_> | well, this one is closer to home |
| 05:13 | <Hixie> | man half this paper is completely outside my understanding |
| 05:13 | <Hixie> | that doesn't bode well |
| 05:17 | <Hixie> | well, i don't understand half of the paper, but i do understand the conclusion |
| 05:18 | <Hixie> | and it is positive |
| 05:18 | <Hixie> | sweet |
| 05:22 | <Hixie> | on a completely different note, anyone know of a font off-hand that has many weights? |
| 05:23 | <Hixie> | aha, Avenir. |
| 05:24 | <Hixie> | also, wtf Opera |
| 05:25 | <zewt> | http://i.imgur.com/LSNyf.png google is almost at the point where i'm seriously thinking of seeing if bing is actually less stupid |
| 05:25 | <Hixie> | why is opera ignoring my font-family |
| 05:25 | <zewt> | i do not need a search engine that intentionally makes typos for me |
| 05:29 | <neXTleap> | Why do site makers not understand that having anything that changes/flashes/moves around makes it 100% impossible for people to read the articles/content? At least this is the case for me. My eyes cannot focus on reading when there is anything that is animated on the same page. |
| 05:30 | <zewt> | so how many channels are you pasting that into, exactly |
| 05:31 | <MikeSmith_> | Hixie: Adam seemed to be suggesting that parsing bug doesn't necessarily need to be fixed http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Nov/0019.html |
| 05:31 | <Hixie> | yeah i saw |
| 05:31 | <Hixie> | i disagree |
| 05:31 | <Hixie> | having the text change order is nuts |
| 05:32 | <MikeSmith_> | yeah I would think so |
| 05:33 | <MikeSmith_> | so I see in his follow-up message, Minamide-san said he thinks it could be fixed without running into the limit problem that Adam described http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Nov/0020.html |
| 07:01 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: fonts with many weights: Source Sans, Open Sans, Lato |
| 07:09 | <hsivonen> | Firefox 3.6 off the list, IE10 on the list: http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser_version_partially_combined-ww-daily-20121209-20121209-bar |
| 07:57 | <nattokirai> | Hixie: what's the "Looks like Firefox does bolder (though seems buggy about it, at least |
| 07:57 | <nattokirai> | in my tests" about? |
| 07:58 | <nattokirai> | Hixie: do you have a testcase? |
| 08:02 | <hsivonen> | I see way more magic than I like to see in nsUTF8ConverterService. annevk, you may be interested in finding out when this stuff gets called. |
| 08:03 | <hsivonen> | quoting: “It may not be asked for if a caller suspects that the input is in non-ASCII 7bit charset (ISO-2022-xx, HZ)” |
| 08:05 | <hsivonen> | good times. code that is so old it has comments about Tru64 Unix’s C++ compiler |
| 09:25 | <annevk> | anyone here willing to review a few paragraphs? |
| 09:27 | <hsivonen> | depends on the paragraphs, I guess |
| 09:28 | <Ms3ger> | Looks like nsUTF8ConverterService is used for <script type> \o/ |
| 09:28 | <hsivonen> | Ms3ger: why? |
| 09:29 | <Ms3ger> | Because it's used in our Content-Type parsing code |
| 09:30 | <annevk> | hsivonen: draft post for the TAG thingie |
| 09:30 | <hsivonen> | annevk: ok |
| 09:30 | <annevk> | pointer to nsUTF8ConverterService? sounds interesting |
| 09:31 | <darobin> | annevk: sure, I'll review that |
| 09:34 | <Engin> | about the relatively new access control specifications. is preflight sequence to be made each time a cross domain request to be made to the cross domain target site ? |
| 09:34 | <Ms3ger> | annevk: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/intl/uconv/src/nsUTF8ConverterService.cpp |
| 09:34 | <Engin> | i.e. should I expect an OPTIONS request to be sent to the target web site for each resource request ? because that's what chrome was doing, and that's basically just doubling my requests ? |
| 09:34 | <Engin> | if that's the case, I can just resort to JSONP and handle cross domain communcications the old way |
| 09:44 | <annevk> | a) that's be insecure, b) simple stuff like fetching JSON should not require a preflight |
| 09:45 | <hsivonen> | annevk: does GET with default headers ever require a preflight? |
| 09:46 | <annevk> | if there's event listeners registered on xhr.upload, but I forgot why we did that |
| 09:49 | <darobin> | that's the sort of side effect that causes pain |
| 09:50 | <darobin> | it would be good to know why it's that way |
| 09:51 | <darobin> | JSONP might be insecure but it works; if I found out that I was now making twice the number of request without really knowing why, just like Engin I'd revert to it |
| 09:52 | <annevk> | yeah, I remember sof also not thinking it was necessary and then I went back to check and ... |
| 09:52 | <annevk> | so I guess I should go back and check again |
| 09:58 | <matjas> | lolque https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20306 |
| 09:59 | <hsivonen> | annevk: oh, one more thing: why lower case “web”? |
| 09:59 | <darobin> | annevk: looking ath XHR, I find it rather painful to figure out what the upload events flag does |
| 10:00 | <darobin> | I mean I can reverse engineer it, but the dfn is not a definition, and its usage in the spec is far from illuminating |
| 10:00 | <annevk> | hsivonen: it's a common word |
| 10:00 | darobin | never knows whether to lowercase web or not |
| 10:00 | <hsivonen> | there’s just one “the Web” |
| 10:01 | <annevk> | I always opt for lowercasing when there's confusion, and without hyphen whenever possible |
| 10:01 | <hsivonen> | annevk: “the Internet” or “the internet”? |
| 10:01 | <annevk> | hsivonen: I'd lowercase that too |
| 10:01 | hsivonen | disapproves |
| 10:02 | <annevk> | but your point about their being only one is interesting |
| 10:02 | <annevk> | had not considered that |
| 10:02 | <darobin> | should that not be "HSivonen disapproves"? |
| 10:02 | <SimonSapin> | maybe :) |
| 10:03 | <hsivonen> | darobin: no, the canonical case of my userid is the lower case |
| 10:03 | <darobin> | hsivonen: so if I use "HSivonen" then I'm just referring to a Henri Sivonen, not the Henri Sivonen? |
| 10:04 | <hsivonen> | darobin: I think the more interesting question is if the first letter of userids should be capitalized at the start of a sentence in email. |
| 10:05 | <annevk> | that'd be weird |
| 10:05 | <darobin> | hsivonen: I've been handling that one by rephrasing to avoid to issue |
| 10:06 | <MikeSmith> | "The web is everything from simple documents (cat pictures) to complex applications (cat picture meme generators)." that guy gets my vote |
| 10:06 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: do you get to cast the vote for Keio? |
| 10:06 | <hsivonen> | do the hosts gets to vote? |
| 10:06 | <hsivonen> | get |
| 10:06 | <darobin> | yes, it's always puzzled me that while the internet is made of cats this is never handled by webarch |
| 10:06 | <darobin> | yes |
| 10:07 | <darobin> | each host has a vote, they're members |
| 10:07 | <darobin> | I don't think that MikeSmith is the one making the call on the Keio vote though :) |
| 10:07 | <hsivonen> | :-( |
| 10:08 | <hsivonen> | looks like today, I’ll be just doing reviews |
| 10:08 | <darobin> | I don't know though, maybe he knows exactly who to buy a beer to |
| 10:08 | <hsivonen> | of all kinds |
| 10:08 | <hsivonen> | code, blog post, specs |
| 10:08 | <darobin> | sounds like fun |
| 10:10 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: nope I don't getta vote |
| 10:11 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: :-( |
| 10:11 | <hsivonen> | I hadn’t realized SVG-as-img was banned from loading external TTF |
| 10:15 | <darobin> | MikeSmith: maybe you can buy Hagino-san a beer? |
| 10:16 | <darobin> | I'm happy to pool some kitty money |
| 10:16 | <darobin> | mmm, I don't know the ERCIM guy who's replacing Vincent |
| 10:18 | <annevk> | darobin: the force preflight flag is there because otherwise the existence of the server would be exposed |
| 10:19 | <annevk> | darobin: and I think Gecko did not have enough control over the network layer to make that work more nicely |
| 10:19 | <darobin> | mmmm, I guess that would make sense |
| 10:19 | <hsivonen> | annevk: would be nice to have a note in the spec with the rationale |
| 10:19 | <annevk> | agreed, I'll file a bug |
| 10:19 | <annevk> | to make sure I give it another thorough examination |
| 10:20 | <darobin> | in general it would be nice to have a checklist of things that trigger a preflight |
| 10:21 | <annevk> | there's such a checklist in CORS |
| 10:21 | <hsivonen> | Is Mac OS X 10.7.x unable to update to Safari 6? |
| 10:21 | <annevk> | I expect this stuff to become better when we rewrite CORS into Fetch |
| 10:22 | <hsivonen> | or is 5.1 the last Safari available for 10.6.x? |
| 10:22 | <annevk> | Fetch will handle all URL -> resource mapping and that will make the flow so much easier to understand |
| 10:22 | <hsivonen> | Safari has pretty severe version fragmentation: more than 50% of usage on non-latest |
| 10:23 | <hsivonen> | Did Windows users of Safari get any kind of EOL notice? |
| 10:23 | <hsivonen> | are the users left with an unupdating browser without knowing it? |
| 10:24 | <annevk> | Windows Safari EOL'd? |
| 10:24 | <hsivonen> | annevk: is it not? |
| 10:26 | <annevk> | They'll have to update Windows iTunes I imagine. Not sure what the strategy behind Windows Safari was. |
| 10:26 | darobin | looks for a developer-friendly checklist in CORS, fails |
| 10:27 | <hsivonen> | http://www.apple.com/safari/ no longer offers a Windows download when loaded on Windows |
| 10:27 | <hsivonen> | annevk: Windows iTunes got the 11 update |
| 10:27 | <hsivonen> | Windows iTunes is 64-bit even |
| 10:28 | <annevk> | So I guess they got tired of updating the Safari WebKit-shell for Windows or maybe the usage share was just too low... |
| 10:29 | <darobin> | I've been told that iTunes actually doesn't use a WebView |
| 10:30 | <hsivonen> | darobin: so private WebKit embedding API then? |
| 10:31 | <darobin> | hsivonen: dunno, more clearly I was told that iTunes doesn't use HTML for its UI as much as people think |
| 10:31 | <darobin> | but it's hard to figure out, all you ever get out of Apple employees are tantalising hints |
| 10:32 | <hsivonen> | iTunes LP requires WebKit for sure, though |
| 10:32 | <darobin> | either way, the conclusion from that discussion was that there wasn't really a need to maintain Apple's WebKit for usage in Windows iTunes as people thought |
| 10:32 | <darobin> | yeah, that's what I thought too, but I got a weird non-committal reply there |
| 10:32 | <darobin> | anyway, it quickly becomes kremlinology if you try to figure things out there |
| 10:33 | <hsivonen> | if Apple is non-committal to iTunes LP, can they, please, zap prefixed stuff? |
| 10:34 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: is there an URL parser in JS? |
| 10:35 | <SimonSapin> | I’d like to fix https://github.com/LeaVerou/prefixfree/blob/1efce102f2b64e93aa061e6149b489bb769200a5/prefixfree.js#L43 |
| 10:36 | <SimonSapin> | https://github.com/LeaVerou/prefixfree/issues/62 |
| 10:38 | <MikeSmith> | SimonSapin: http://medialize.github.com/URI.js/ |
| 10:38 | <MikeSmith> | Rodney Rehm |
| 10:43 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: http://github.com/annevk/url the impl I started the spec on, but it needs updating |
| 10:44 | <annevk> | s/started/based/ |
| 10:44 | <annevk> | (the spec evolved a bit) |
| 10:44 | <annevk> | darobin: you must have been talking to different people then |
| 10:45 | <darobin> | annevk: as usual with Apple, I'm getting different input depending on who is being talked to |
| 10:45 | <darobin> | in any case, that was what I heard about EOLing WinSaf |
| 10:45 | <annevk> | maybe they try secrecy by obscurity now they can no longer keep a secret |
| 10:53 | <darobin> | heh |
| 11:09 | <Engin> | iirc, access control specs is basically saying you need explicit permission from the host if you intend to READ the response. |
| 11:10 | <Engin> | it's been like 2 years since I've read it though |
| 11:52 | zcorpan | finds out about https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/team-html-a11y/ |
| 11:52 | <SimonSapin> | <link>.href is always absolute, even if .getAttribute('href') is not, right? |
| 11:54 | <zcorpan> | SimonSapin: not if the url fails to resolve |
| 11:54 | <zcorpan> | SimonSapin: then it returns the attribute value literally, iirc |
| 11:55 | <SimonSapin> | what does "fail to resolve" mean? A parse error? |
| 11:56 | <zcorpan> | i guess when http://url.spec.whatwg.org/ returns "failure" |
| 11:56 | <zcorpan> | specific case i know of is "http://foo bar/" |
| 11:57 | <zcorpan> | or //foo bar/ |
| 12:13 | <Stevef> | zcorpan: hey thats secret |
| 12:14 | <zcorpan> | Stevef: i figured |
| 12:14 | <zcorpan> | now i just wonder how many more secret lists html wg has |
| 12:15 | <Stevef> | its one of those archives I can't access |
| 12:16 | <Stevef> | zcorpan: it can only be accessed by insiders |
| 12:16 | <zcorpan> | right |
| 12:17 | <Stevef> | zcorpan: but I can confirm its where all the real decisions are made |
| 12:17 | <zcorpan> | are you on that list? |
| 12:18 | <Stevef> | yes: its for admin/co-ord for a11y chairs |
| 12:18 | <Stevef> | but can't access archive |
| 12:18 | <darobin> | Stevef: that's a bug |
| 12:19 | <darobin> | lemme ask how to fix it |
| 12:19 | <Stevef> | darobin: maybe am not concerned |
| 12:19 | <darobin> | concerned? |
| 12:20 | <Stevef> | about getting access to archive |
| 12:20 | <Stevef> | i already get multiple copies of each email jammimg up inbox as it is |
| 12:21 | <darobin> | sure, but it would come in handy if you need it one day |
| 12:21 | <darobin> | to refer to one of those all important decisions you make there |
| 12:21 | <darobin> | I know that it's technically possible to grant you access to team archives |
| 12:23 | <Stevef> | yeah probably, as I tend to delete a lot of the mails (ones that are not set to auto destruct after reading) |
| 12:28 | <Stevef> | really, its the off list back channel emails that can be read by no one except the those its sent to where the real real decisions are made, the secret lists are only to fool people into thinking they are involved in secret decsions, so I have been told... |
| 12:31 | <darobin> | hehe |
| 12:34 | <Stevef> | the actual are decisions made via telepathy, vulcan mind melds etc. I would also like to know how many people involved in standards are scientologists |
| 13:14 | <Stevef> | MikeSmith: screenshot of acc inspect info on <main> element in chromium build waiting for you to download in skype |
| 13:15 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef: ah thanks |
| 13:17 | <Stevef> | note its a bit tricky to get at have to hover mouse right over element border (and have Voicoever running) as chrome only switches acc stuff on when it detects an AT |
| 13:18 | <Stevef> | i think you have to have voiceover running before opening chrome |
| 13:34 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef: I set tabindex=0 on it to make it focusable and then just hover over it when it's focused |
| 13:36 | <Stevef> | MikeSmith: yeah that works, its a shame the Mac inspection tools don't 'watch focus' like the windows tools, it makes it easy to inspect elements then |
| 13:37 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef: I still don't see how to get Accessibility Inspector to show me the right thing in Safari |
| 13:37 | <MikeSmith> | I got it working in Chromium |
| 13:37 | <MikeSmith> | but in Safari it never seems to actually find the element I'm trying to check |
| 13:37 | <Stevef> | maybe need to fire up voiceover didn't think it was needed |
| 13:40 | <Stevef> | also this tool is useful on mac: http://pfiddlesoft.com/uibrowser/ but is trial version |
| 13:40 | <Stevef> | allows you to step through acc tree |
| 13:40 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef: yeah I got voiceover on but when I hover over the focused element in Safari it doesn't show the right information, as far as I can see. |
| 13:40 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef: ok |
| 13:40 | <MikeSmith> | thanks |
| 13:48 | <Stevef> | mikesmith: works for me with this test file: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/377471/tests/structural.html |
| 13:48 | <Stevef> | MikeSmith: no voiceover |
| 13:49 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 13:49 | <MikeSmith> | clearly I'm doing something wrong |
| 13:49 | <Stevef> | safari 6.0 |
| 13:50 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 13:51 | <MikeSmith> | I'm trying with 5.1.7 |
| 13:52 | <MikeSmith> | I can't run Safari 6.0 in my 10.6 environment, nor WebKit nightlies |
| 13:54 | <Stevef> | yeah support for new elements has been fairly recent |
| 13:54 | <Stevef> | accessibility support that is |
| 13:55 | <MikeSmith> | ah ok |
| 15:26 | <Engin> | wow, preflight is really executed each time you access a differen URL |
| 15:26 | <Engin> | it might be same resource... even if the query string is chagned, another preflight is being done |
| 15:27 | <odinho> | Yep, not very surprising. CORS is per-resource. |
| 15:28 | <Engin> | maybe I need to refresh my definition of resource |
| 15:29 | <Engin> | I thought foo.com/bar?5 and foo.com/bar?6 are the same resources |
| 15:29 | <Engin> | with different query strings |
| 15:30 | <odinho> | Might have been true some time. It makes more sense. But everyone started doing index.php?file=my/file/here.inc instead. |
| 15:30 | <Engin> | it is not the commity's responsibility to remedy incompetent designers flaws :) |
| 15:31 | <Engin> | I think this renders CORS inefficient |
| 15:31 | <Engin> | for instance, in this application, i need to make requests as fast as possible. |
| 15:31 | <Engin> | for any aplpication which does not scale... it is no problem. |
| 15:36 | <Engin> | I think a unified API can be made |
| 15:37 | <Engin> | JSONP and RESTful. |
| 15:37 | <Engin> | Yet, my applications are not really a good example of "resources", mine is pretty much an API like a real one instead of CRUD operations. |
| 15:37 | <gsnedders> | Engin: I resource is everything except the fragment identifier. |
| 15:37 | <gsnedders> | *A |
| 15:38 | <Engin> | ok |
| 15:38 | <Engin> | where is it specified exactly |
| 15:38 | <Engin> | I'm being lazy here sorry :) |
| 15:38 | <gsnedders> | And then, what, control cross-domain access on a per-origin basis instead of a per-resource one? |
| 15:39 | <Engin> | resources could override the origin rules |
| 15:39 | <Engin> | if you ask me |
| 15:40 | <Engin> | but in flash, there's a policty file which is pretty much like cors thing in HTTP |
| 15:40 | <Engin> | it works like that, when you get permission, you go full |
| 15:41 | <odinho> | And it had/has LOADS of security issues. Many because of sysadmins working on different parts of the web site didn't know that flash basically got a free-pass to the entire site. |
| 15:41 | <odinho> | But, reboot for me. |
| 15:41 | <Engin> | refresh me if I'm being stupid... it's been a while since I studied this things deeply |
| 15:45 | <Engin> | there's always the Origin http header in the HTTP requests... so the target site can apply per resource restrictions |
| 15:46 | <Engin> | 1) Target site allowed its resources to be read |
| 15:46 | <Engin> | 2) you read everything without preflight |
| 15:46 | <Engin> | 3) if there's an exceptional resource... target site can deny access anyway, since the origin is known for each request... i.e. give a 403 maybe. |
| 15:55 | <darobin> | Engin: bar?5 and bar?6 are clearly different resources as per HTTP, URI specs, etc. |
| 15:55 | <darobin> | I think it's way too late to revisit that |
| 15:55 | <darobin> | you could use POST |
| 15:56 | <darobin> | I think that POSTing repetitively to the same resource should let it live in the CORS cache |
| 15:56 | <darobin> | so you'd only get a preflight on the first request |
| 15:56 | <darobin> | (in a good implementation) |
| 15:57 | <zcorpan> | finding in the spec if the value attribute is required or optional for a certain <input type> appears to be not trivial |
| 16:04 | <darobin> | jgraham_: ping |
| 16:09 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: why is UTF-32 only “should not” and “discouraged” as opposed to MUST NOT use and MUST NOT implement? |
| 16:11 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: because the reason not to implement UTF-32 is weak, compared to the reason not to implement, say, UTF-7 |
| 16:12 | <Hixie> | but i expect soon this to become moot with Encodings taking oven that job |
| 16:12 | <Hixie> | over |
| 16:12 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: it has this risk, no? http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/never-show-user-supplied-content-as-utf-16.htm |
| 16:12 | <hsivonen> | that UTF-16 also has, sure |
| 16:12 | <hsivonen> | and less reason to be supported than UTF-16 |
| 16:16 | <hsivonen> | hmm. In Opera, a character encoding override seems to persist for the origin |
| 16:17 | <hsivonen> | which is not good if the origin happens to serve UTF-16 in addition to whatever caused the user to use the override |
| 16:18 | <Hixie> | interpreting one encoding as another (especially one that isn't compatible in the us-ascii range) is always going to have that problem |
| 16:19 | <jarek> | Hi |
| 16:19 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: Yeah, it just sets a "site preference" |
| 16:20 | <jarek> | should something like $element.getAttributeNS('xlink:href') work when XML serialization is used? |
| 16:20 | <jarek> | I mean $element.getAttribute('xlink:href') |
| 16:20 | <jarek> | it seems to be working on Chrome, but I haven't seen it documented anywhere |
| 16:21 | <gsnedders> | jarek: DOM4 documents that, element.QName + ":" + element.localName |
| 16:21 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: all encodings except UTF-16 that are in the Encoding Standard are ASCII-compatible |
| 16:21 | <gsnedders> | Oh, no, DOM4 seems to contradict that. |
| 16:22 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: so non-Unicode legacy encodings aren’t as bad as legacy Unicode encodings |
| 16:22 | <hsivonen> | legacy Unicode encodings being UTF-* other than UTF-8 |
| 16:23 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: ASCII-compatible as defined by the spec is not the same as what i mean here |
| 16:23 | <gsnedders> | jarek: Per spec only getAttribute("href") should work, semingly. Dunno why that changed. |
| 16:23 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: you could easily do this with ISO-2022-jp, for instance |
| 16:23 | <Hixie> | well, "easily" may be pushing it |
| 16:23 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: anyway, UTF-32 has no real non-exploit use cases |
| 16:23 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: hence "should not" |
| 16:23 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: if you have no good reason to implement it, then it's a "must not" |
| 16:25 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: yeah, sure, but if you say “discouraged” rather than MUST NOT, the i18n folks repeat “discouraged” rather than “MUST NOT” |
| 16:25 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: as i said, this is moot if we replace it with a reference to Encoding |
| 16:25 | <hsivonen> | I don’t ever recall seeing real Web content encoded as UTF-32, BTW |
| 16:25 | <hsivonen> | HOWEVER |
| 16:26 | <Engin> | darobin: I'm already talking about POSTs |
| 16:26 | <hsivonen> | I have seen real content that declared UCS-4 |
| 16:26 | <hsivonen> | and it didn’t work for me |
| 16:26 | <hsivonen> | that content was Mark Pilgrim’s blog feed |
| 16:27 | <hsivonen> | (he didn’t appreciate when I complained about it, IIRC) |
| 16:27 | <hsivonen> | labeling this behavior according to Mark’s taxonomy of developers in left as an exercise |
| 16:29 | <Hixie> | as soon as i get around to updating the spec to use Encoding instead of doing all this itself, this entire issue disappears forever |
| 16:29 | <Hixie> | you are preaching to the choir |
| 16:30 | <hsivonen> | I’m just unhappy because I was about to email to www-international saying that HTML5 prohibits UTF-32 but then found it doesn’t totally |
| 16:30 | <jarek> | should inline SVG be parsed using HTML5 parsing rules or XML parsing rules? |
| 16:30 | <gsnedders> | jarek: HTML5 defines it. |
| 16:30 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: well just send an update saying you meant the Encoding spec |
| 16:30 | <shepazu> | what gsnedders said |
| 16:30 | <gsnedders> | jarek: There are specific states for foreign content. |
| 16:32 | <jarek> | gsnedders: was this proposal approved by W3C? http://dev.w3.org/SVG/proposals/svg-html/svg-html-proposal.html |
| 16:32 | <shepazu> | jarek: no |
| 16:32 | <jarek> | so custom namespaces in inline SVG files are officially not supported? |
| 16:34 | <gsnedders> | Correct. xlink and xml:lang are special-cased. |
| 16:34 | <jarek> | e.g. is it technically allowed to get/set/modify attributes such as inkscape:window-width? |
| 16:34 | <gsnedders> | No. |
| 16:34 | <gsnedders> | That's a parse-error. |
| 16:34 | <gsnedders> | Nothing stops you from mutating the DOM to add/remove/set them. |
| 16:34 | <gsnedders> | They just cannot exist in the HTML serialization. |
| 16:39 | <jarek> | but attributes in inlined SVG drawings should remain case-sensitive, right? |
| 16:39 | <Ms2ger> | No |
| 16:39 | <jarek> | omg, what a mess :/ |
| 16:39 | <Ms2ger> | Not the names, at least |
| 16:39 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah, welcome to the web |
| 16:39 | <Ms2ger> | We do messes |
| 16:40 | <hsivonen> | jarek: the names in the DOM and in XML are case-sensitive |
| 16:40 | <hsivonen> | jarek: the text/html serialization is case-insensitive |
| 16:41 | <hsivonen> | jarek: the HTML parser outputs the canonical case |
| 16:46 | <hsivonen> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2012OctDec/0122.html FWIW |
| 16:48 | <jarek> | are there any official guildlines on how SVG document should me sanitised by publishers? |
| 16:48 | <jarek> | I was recently watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-a77QdoK2I |
| 16:49 | <jarek> | which is really scary, for a regular image format there are way to many ways for injecting evil scripts into it |
| 16:50 | <jarek> | it would be great if we could have something like 'sandbox' attribute on iframes, but for SVG |
| 16:50 | <hsivonen> | jarek: SVG in <img> is harmless |
| 16:50 | <hsivonen> | jarek: inline SVG or SVG in <iframe>, <embed> or <object> is as dangerous as random HTML or Flash |
| 16:50 | <jarek> | hsivonen: what if I wanted to have access to the DOM from parent document? |
| 16:51 | <hsivonen> | jarek: can’t have the cake and eat it, too |
| 16:51 | <hsivonen> | jarek: then you need a dangerous inclusion mechanism |
| 16:51 | <jarek> | hsivonen: it's possible to disable all scripts inside iframes, but keep DOM access |
| 16:52 | <hsivonen> | jarek: theoretically, I’m not sure (but look up sandbox), in practice, no |
| 16:53 | <hsivonen> | jarek: as for sanitizer guidelines, you can look at http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/src/nsTreeSanitizer.cpp for inspiration |
| 16:55 | <darobin> | jarek: I make no claims as to trustworthiness, but it was ported over from a widely deployed sanitiser (Rails'): https://github.com/darobin/html-sanitiser |
| 16:55 | <darobin> | you could adapt that to include SVG |
| 16:57 | <hsivonen> | Does the platform provide any way to plant a document that does not have a browsing context into a browsing context? |
| 16:57 | <hsivonen> | I think the answer is “no”, but I could be wrong. |
| 17:02 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 17:02 | <Hixie> | man, 140 characters is too short. |
| 17:02 | <Hixie> | worst communication medium ever |
| 17:11 | <Ms2ger> | Ever? |
| 17:32 | <Hixie> | Ms2ger: yes. |
| 17:45 | <dglazkov> | I would think the stone tablets were slightly more tedious, but maybe it's just me. |
| 17:55 | <marcosc_> | dglazkov: I wonder if stone-age kids were able to engrave them super fast. |
| 17:55 | <marcosc_> | dglazkov: and what was stone-age "lol"? |
| 18:01 | <mpt> | Smoke signals probably had lower latency than stone tablets, but also lower bandwidth. |
| 18:24 | <jgraham_> | Well to be pedantic, the worst communication mechanism is presumably one that we don't use because it is so bad |
| 18:24 | <jgraham_> | Although |
| 18:24 | <Ms2ger> | NO |
| 18:24 | <Ms2ger> | |
| 18:24 | <jgraham_> | I don't use twitter |
| 18:25 | <jgraham_> | So make of that what you will |
| 18:27 | <Hixie> | dglazkov: stone tablets have more capacity and you can retrieve tablets you made centuries ago with virtually no dataloss. Twitter can't even return your tweets from a few months ago. |
| 18:28 | <Hixie> | jgraham: ah bit is a communication medium nobody uses really a communication medium at all? :-) |
| 18:31 | <jgraham> | Hixie: I suppose that the sound of trees falling in forests would be a particularly poor communication medium, yes |
| 18:31 | <jgraham> | darobin: btw I would pong about now if you were here so, uh, ping? |
| 18:47 | <Hixie> | <input type='text' maxlength='20' class='negra' name='user' formenctype='application/x-www-form-urlencoded'> |
| 18:47 | <Hixie> | why |
| 18:47 | <Hixie> | why would you do that |
| 18:47 | <Hixie> | what sequence of events led to that |
| 18:48 | <Hixie> | also i like how the first mention of the substring "dialog" in http://bakhshianhaj.ir/post/47 is an end tag |
| 18:50 | <Hixie> | wow http://frontdesk.co.in/ actually uses formenctype correctly (though pointlessly, should have put it on the <form> for back compat) |
| 19:15 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: wait, what is this version prefixing for webrtc? what? |
| 19:16 | <Ms2ger> | hsivonen, can I tell people to start writing specs already? :) |
| 19:24 | <Hixie> | anyone know what <panel> is? http://devbug.me/iphone/cydia/switchermodmini/index.html |
| 19:25 | <Ms2ger> | I can tell you something about <layer>? |
| 19:34 | <Hixie> | i don't have numbers to share, but interestingly <dialog> in its old definition was used by quite a few sites |
| 19:34 | <Hixie> | looks like it's dropping fast though |
| 19:34 | <Hixie> | so that tells us that there's demand for conversation markup, and that authors are adapting both to introduction and removal of features pretty fast |
| 19:34 | <Hixie> | (for some definition of fast) |
| 20:08 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: version suffixing |
| 20:08 | <Hixie> | on the api names?! |
| 20:08 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: apparently |
| 20:09 | <hsivonen> | Ms2ger: specs about what? |
| 20:09 | <Ms2ger> | All the new stuff we implement |
| 20:09 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: so uh |
| 20:10 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: is this something the wg is doing or something? |
| 20:10 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: how are we not stopping such insanity |
| 20:11 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I don't know if the idea came from the WG or from Chrome |
| 20:13 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I just don't want WebRTC to sink the policy proposal of getting rid of vendor prefixing |
| 20:14 | <Huvet> | Has there already been discussions about including one-click payments in browsers? A cross-browser way to do this would mean a LOT to the web. |
| 20:15 | <Huvet> | ... it's one of the big reasons publishers are moving away from the web towards closed platforms |
| 20:18 | <Ms2ger> | Hixie, maybe start with the CSSWG :) |
| 20:20 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: oh sure, i'm not saying they should be coupled |
| 20:20 | <smaug____> | Huvet: I know nothing about the subject, but perhaps you're looking for something like https://wiki.mozilla.org/WebAPI/WebPayment |
| 20:20 | <Hixie> | i'm just concerned with the idea of versioning an API, we've managed to avoid that level of crazy so far |
| 20:20 | <Hixie> | it'd be a shame if we fell into it |
| 20:21 | <Huvet> | smaug____: thanks, I'll check it out! |
| 20:34 | <Huvet> | smaug____: That's exactly what I was looking for. I smell #win for the web. Given that we get cross-browser support for WebPayment in a not too distant future. |
| 20:34 | <Huvet> | yay! |
| 23:29 | <Hixie> | whatever happened to variable |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | i was just looking at the Rationale wiki page and he'd done a bunch of good work there |
| 23:34 | <TabAtkins> | t |
| 23:35 | <Hixie> | hey tab did you see the feedback on dialog anchoring loops recently? |
| 23:39 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Meeting with the dude who raised it in 20 minutes. |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: ah, cool. let me know if you come up with a good solution. :-) |
| 23:49 | TabAtkins | is solving yet another Hg problem by deleting and re-creating the repo. |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | if anyone cares about <Dialog> positioning, see https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95946 |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | (feedback not requested, this is just fyi) |
| 23:56 | <TabAtkins> | Oh man, this is going to require cycle-detection. |
| 23:57 | <TabAtkins> | Since this is just a particular instantiation of my advanced abspos proposal, which required cycle detection/breaking. |
| 23:58 | <Hixie> | yeah, i was hoping you wouldn't conclude that |
| 23:58 | <Hixie> | that was basically my conclusion too |
| 23:59 | <Hixie> | i think we can break it by just not doing anchor-on-anchor or something |
| 23:59 | <Hixie> | so just not support any chains at all |
| 23:59 | <Hixie> | that obviously blocks loops too |
| 23:59 | <Hixie> | that seemed less than ideal, but better than loop detection |
