| 03:23 | <zewt> | andrew kirkpatrick with the not knowing what reductio ad absurdum means |
| 03:28 | <zewt> | also anyone arguing for "do this because i claim you have to" i'd say is admitting that the feature fails on its merits (or else they'd be arguing merits) |
| 04:35 | <zewt> | endless dbz reference in ebiten why |
| 04:35 | <zewt> | wrong window but okay |
| 04:35 | <zewt> | <- slummin' it in irssi because desktop irc client ate itself |
| 04:39 | <MikeSmith> | zewt: it's hard to tell from his message which part is a quote and which part is his words |
| 04:40 | <zewt> | MikeSmith: yeah i sent him a private mail asking him to fix his stupid quoting heh |
| 04:40 | <zewt> | it becomes totally unreadable in subquotes |
| 04:41 | <zewt> | dunno which client it is that's doing that |
| 04:42 | <MikeSmith> | I guess it's a common thing with people who don't normally do much mailing-list discussion |
| 04:42 | <zewt> | yeah i figure low chances of him actually fixing it but worth asking |
| 04:43 | <zewt> | i mean i don't bother pestering people about top quoting or other typical stuff these days, but quoting with a differnet color (and a very slightly different color) is terrible |
| 04:43 | <MikeSmith> | well, I know him to be a smart guy, so I expect he will |
| 04:43 | <MikeSmith> | I read it all in plain text so I don't notice the colors and such |
| 04:46 | <zewt> | yeah i used to read mail in mutt, and people who were all "quotes in red" were infuriating, heh |
| 04:46 | <zewt> | but the real problem is quotes of quotes, which pretty much always loses it |
| 04:47 | <zewt> | tangental but related, i'm sort of ready to concede the top-quoting thing |
| 04:47 | <zewt> | mostly because it's the only practical thing on mobile |
| 04:47 | <zewt> | also it's easier for people who don't email for a living to learn |
| 05:05 | <MikeSmith> | zewt: true about movile |
| 05:05 | <MikeSmith> | *mobile |
| 05:07 | <MikeSmith> | but anybody trying to post a lot to mailing lists from their mobile is whacked from the get-go |
| 05:10 | <zewt> | yeah, detailed replies are one thing, but it's reasonable that people should be able to one-paragraph reply from mobile |
| 06:50 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: If you want to argue against version suffixing APIs, I suggest emailing to dev-platform |
| 07:00 | <hsivonen> | TabAtkins: do you mean text-outline doesn’t exist is CSS *anymore*? |
| 07:00 | <hsivonen> | TabAtkins: or is it coming back again? |
| 08:31 | <asmodai> | Happy soundcheck day! |
| 08:41 | <hsivonen> | do all ad providers use document.open()ed docs in iframes these days? |
| 08:42 | hsivonen | is prototyping code that’s sensitive to document.open()ed docs in iframes |
| 08:42 | <hsivonen> | and I see the code trigger on lots of pages |
| 08:44 | <hsivonen> | I need examples of real-world pages where the user would need to use the charset menu |
| 10:06 | <zcorpan> | zewt: is "straw man" more appropriate (than reductio ad absurdum)? |
| 11:46 | <zcorpan> | what badness would come out if we "always" sniffed for gzip (at least for browsing contexts, styles and scripts)? |
| 11:46 | <zcorpan> | opera sniffs for SVG+gzip |
| 12:20 | <jgraham> | Signs that you are out of touch with current problems on the web platform #8: You have advocated polyglot markup or think that people should work on specifying it |
| 12:58 | <darobin> | zcorpan: isn't that actually already the case? maybe I'm misremembering from SVG habits |
| 12:59 | <hsivonen> | does anyone happen to have a bomless UTF-16 HTML document with UTF-16 declared on the HTTP level at hand? |
| 12:59 | <zcorpan> | darobin: no. even for svg i think only opera and ASV does it (dunno about natively in IE) |
| 13:00 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: data: url good enough? |
| 13:01 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: actually, yes! good point |
| 13:02 | <darobin> | zcorpan: I'm surprised anyone would ship SVG without it, there's a lot of SVG out there without the proper Content-Encoding |
| 13:02 | <hsivonen> | UTF-16 is like XML: The more effort you have put into making it really work, the less likely you are to think using it is good. |
| 13:03 | <darobin> | unless server configurations have become markedly better |
| 13:03 | <darobin> | odinho: thanks for reminding me to use mosh — I don't know how I could ever work without it |
| 13:03 | <odinho> | darobin: Hehe, I had the same feeling. |
| 13:03 | <hsivonen> | data:text/html;charset=UTF-16BE,%20%AC works for my purposes |
| 13:04 | <darobin> | all those stupid people still just using ssh! |
| 13:04 | <zcorpan> | darobin: at least safari/chrome/firefox give xml parse error for .svgz without content-encoding |
| 13:04 | <hsivonen> | who actually uses svgz? |
| 13:04 | <darobin> | zcorpan: interesting. I'm guessing that more recent servers must ship with svgz properly configured |
| 13:04 | <darobin> | it used to be unusable without detection (which is why ASV did it) |
| 13:05 | <zcorpan> | maybe so. my question still stands - why not always sniff and forget about the header? |
| 13:05 | <zcorpan> | is it just because STANDARDS!!1 ? |
| 13:05 | <zcorpan> | or is there a security problem with doing it? |
| 13:06 | <zcorpan> | (like bypassing some security checks?) |
| 13:06 | <zcorpan> | (in servers that do content filtering) |
| 13:08 | <darobin> | could it conflict with encoding detection? |
| 13:08 | <darobin> | perhaps more to the point, could you construct chameleon content? |
| 13:09 | <hsivonen> | darobin: not if you sniff for gzip first and hand the uncompressed stream for charset sniffing |
| 13:09 | <darobin> | yeah, good point |
| 13:09 | <zcorpan> | gzip has a magic header |
| 13:09 | <darobin> | indeed, 1F 8B 08 |
| 13:10 | <darobin> | mmm, actually I'm not sure that always works |
| 13:10 | <darobin> | the magic number is for the file format |
| 13:11 | <zcorpan> | third byte isn't part of the magic header |
| 13:11 | <darobin> | it's not clear to me that you're expected to use the magic number when encoding on the wire |
| 13:12 | <hsivonen> | darobin: if you don’t use magic, are’t you supposed to claim deflate rather than gzip? |
| 13:12 | <darobin> | hsivonen: yes, but is that followed properly in the wild? |
| 13:13 | <darobin> | "deflate - despite its name the zlib compression (RFC 1950) should be used" |
| 13:13 | <hsivonen> | darobin: dunno |
| 13:13 | <darobin> | seems like a good area to find skeletons in |
| 13:14 | <hsivonen> | MIME is so brittle compared to magic numbers :-( |
| 13:15 | hsivonen | is refactoring Gecko’s HTML charset guessing code to make UTF-16 unoverridable in the UI in order to block social engineered UTF-16 XSS |
| 13:15 | <hsivonen> | yay UTF-16 |
| 13:17 | <darobin> | well, external metadata as a design pattern should be shot in the face repeatedly |
| 13:18 | <darobin> | I don't even understand how it can be considered to be a good idea to separate information vital to the processing of a payload from the payload itself |
| 13:18 | <darobin> | (unless you're in well-agreed situations where it can be a performance improvement) |
| 13:21 | <hsivonen> | UTF-16 is a worse idea than MIME, though |
| 13:22 | <Ms2ger> | We have no lack of bad ideas around here, that much is clear |
| 13:25 | <jgraham> | And a seemingly inexhaustable supply of new ones! |
| 13:25 | <darobin> | can we convert those into energy? |
| 13:26 | <jgraham> | Sure, just print out the public HTML archives and set fire to them |
| 13:26 | <darobin> | that's not a lot of email :) |
| 14:01 | <Ms2ger> | Operians: DSK-379497 needs a move |
| 14:17 | <odinho> | Ms2ger: You just created it, man. It's even moved already. :P |
| 14:17 | <Ms2ger> | odinho, now it just needs to be fixed ;) |
| 16:05 | <Ms2ger> | https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012OctDec/0298.html |
| 16:53 | jwalden | wonders how exactly Ms2ger got member access, presumably without unveiling |
| 17:01 | <kbrosnan> | same as how he has commit access?? |
| 17:04 | <jwalden> | yeah, maybe |
| 17:04 | <jwalden> | I thought member access meant you had to be, er, a member tho |
| 17:04 | <jgraham> | Or he is actually timbl? |
| 17:04 | <jwalden> | haha |
| 17:04 | <jwalden> | I mean, I wouldn't be able to load that URL except for working at Mozilla, as best I know |
| 17:05 | <jwalden> | and I thought Ms2ger was a free agent at most |
| 17:14 | <Ms2ger> | jwalden, dbaron has been so kind to allow me to join the W3C as a Mozilla representative |
| 17:14 | <jwalden> | ah, nice |
| 17:14 | <jwalden> | at least, if we accept member-internal stuff as a constraint :-\ |
| 18:53 | <TabAtkins> | hsivonen: It's not in any current spec. I don't know if it ever was. |
| 19:16 | <hsivonen> | TabAtkins: it used to be |
| 19:17 | <hsivonen> | it being text-outline. I assume that's the context |
| 19:28 | <tantek> | hsivonen, TabAtkins: http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-css3-text-20070306/#text-outline |
| 19:28 | <tantek> | found by googling for CSS "text-outline" |
| 19:28 | <tantek> | ;) |
| 19:29 | <tantek> | removed in the 2011-09-01 update to CSS3 Text per: http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-css3-text-20110901/#recent-changes |
| 19:30 | <tantek> | so yeah THIS is the latest draft of that deleted property: http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-css3-text-20110412/#text-outline |
| 19:31 | <tantek> | *was |