| 01:43 | <tantek> | FYI: for those that feel strongly (either way) about a <main> element: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Main_Page |
| 01:51 | <GPHemsley> | Of course, tantek means http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Main_element |
| 01:52 | <GPHemsley> | +1 BTW |
| 01:54 | <tantek> | Thanks GPHemsley :) |
| 01:54 | <tantek> | (especially for the correction ;) ) |
| 08:01 | <kennyluck> | For some reason, Henri's message on Dec 3 about <main> didn't make it to my mail client either. |
| 10:05 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: can you pls make the background image in http://platform.html5.org/history/ fixed? |
| 10:09 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: (why?) |
| 10:09 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: it's the kind of background that flickers when scrolling. at least for me. |
| 10:11 | <jgraham> | Oh, OK, not for me, but I see that it might do that |
| 10:12 | <niloy> | Also, the "fork me on github" image is not loading |
| 10:24 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: I just now made it fixed but it still flickers when you scroll :( |
| 10:24 | <MikeSmith> | niloy: also I now removed the forkme link |
| 10:25 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: you sure the style sheet isn't cached? |
| 10:25 | <MikeSmith> | yeh |
| 10:26 | <MikeSmith> | maybe not it's just a different kind of flickering |
| 10:26 | <MikeSmith> | *maybe now |
| 10:26 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: you used the wrong property |
| 10:26 | <MikeSmith> | oh |
| 10:26 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: just add fixed to the shorthand |
| 10:26 | <MikeSmith> | what should I used? |
| 10:26 | <MikeSmith> | ojk |
| 10:27 | <zcorpan> | (it's background-attachment) |
| 10:29 | <MikeSmith> | hmm it works fine with the shorthand if I use just background: but not if I use background-attachment: |
| 10:33 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: pushed |
| 10:33 | <MikeSmith> | should be flicker-less now |
| 10:33 | <zcorpan> | thanks |
| 10:37 | <darobin> | mixing shorthand and individual properties is a great way to ensure that something doesn't work :) |
| 10:37 | <darobin> | jgraham: the canonical source for idlharness is in the w3c/testharness.js repo, da? |
| 10:38 | <jgraham> | darobin: Aryeh would be the canonical source of that information, but my non canon answer is yes, that's canonical |
| 10:39 | <darobin> | jgraham: ta, that's good enough for me |
| 10:39 | <darobin> | I'll ping Aryeh when he wakes up |
| 10:39 | <darobin> | he's West Coast right? |
| 10:39 | <jgraham> | Israel |
| 10:40 | <darobin> | oh, I somehow thought he was over there |
| 10:40 | <jgraham> | But not working much on standards at the moment |
| 10:40 | <darobin> | he should be awake then, just not on IRC |
| 10:40 | <darobin> | email it is then — thanks |
| 10:42 | <SimonSapin> | can someone with IE test this? data:text/html,<style>body{background:green!ImPortant;background:red} |
| 10:55 | <hsivonen> | wow. AWWW actually mentions HTML |
| 10:56 | <hsivonen> | and CSS even! |
| 10:56 | <hsivonen> | but not JavaScript or ECMAScript |
| 10:56 | <hsivonen> | doesn’t mention the origin concept |
| 11:01 | <jgraham> | Architecture of the World Wide Web, rather than the noise people make when they see a kitten with a ball of string, presumably? |
| 11:02 | <odinho> | SimonSapin: It's green in IE10. In live dom viewer. |
| 11:03 | <odinho> | SimonSapin: data-urls don't seem to work from address bar :-) |
| 11:03 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: yes |
| 11:03 | <SimonSapin> | odinho: cool, thanks |
| 11:04 | <SimonSapin> | odinho: I wanted to test case-sensitivity of !important. It’s fine if it’s not in a data url. |
| 11:05 | <darobin> | AWWW isn't entirely bad, considering its age and all |
| 11:05 | <darobin> | some parts can be salvaged |
| 11:05 | <darobin> | but there sure is an awful lot that's not covered |
| 11:09 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: you guys are still wasting time on that? |
| 11:10 | <annevk> | if we're updating webarch better make it say that identifiers should be case-sensitive or worst case ASCII case-insensitive |
| 11:10 | <annevk> | (not necessarily worst case I suppose, if identifiers are pretty much ASCII anyway) |
| 11:11 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: the wording for !important suggests it’s sensitive but it’s really insensitive. (I don’t care what kind.) |
| 11:14 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: doesn't the grammar define it to be insensitive? |
| 11:15 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: including allowing silly escapes and what not? |
| 11:15 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: I agree with you but more importantly things should be defined once. (Not defined is bad, defined twice in contradictory ways is bad.) |
| 11:15 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: these parts are using prose, not grammar |
| 11:15 | <annevk> | oh okay |
| 11:17 | <SimonSapin> | In "the identifier token ‘important’" escapes should have been taken care of during tokenization |
| 11:17 | <SimonSapin> | (bbl) |
| 11:18 | <annevk> | what I'd expect actually is for the parser to normalize/lowercase those things |
| 11:18 | <annevk> | e.g. if someone writes BACKGROUND-POSITION or Background-Position you're not really gonna preserve that, same with !Important vs !imPORTANt |
| 12:12 | <kennyluck> | TabAtkins, What tools did you use to make the railroad diagrams? |
| 12:14 | <tomasf> | kennyluck: I think you're looking for https://github.com/tabatkins/railroad-diagrams |
| 12:14 | <kennyluck> | tomasf, ah, great thanks! |
| 12:14 | <tomasf> | np |
| 12:28 | <hsivonen> | do we have a wiki page that explains why versioning formats or APIs is an anti-pattern on the Web? |
| 12:42 | <darobin> | s/on the Web// :) |
| 12:42 | <darobin> | hsivonen: I don't think so, that's something you'd normally get the TAG to write for you |
| 12:43 | <darobin> | where by "normally" I don't mean "usually" |
| 12:43 | <jgraham> | haha |
| 12:43 | <jgraham> | But maybe the whatwg wiki is AWWW for the modern age |
| 12:44 | <jgraham> | But with more adherence to the original web vision by being editable by everyone, not just some shady cabal |
| 12:44 | <darobin> | on principle I refuse to believe that a wiki can produce anything that is architecturally sound |
| 12:45 | <jgraham> | I on principle refuse to believe that the web is architecturally sound |
| 12:45 | <darobin> | yeah, well, there's that too |
| 12:45 | <darobin> | I think that in the first month of being elected to the TAG, one should be assigned a random PHP site to maintain |
| 12:46 | <hsivonen> | darobin: now you are just being cruel |
| 12:46 | <darobin> | you're guaranteed to get a rather sobering "The Web runs on *that*?!" moment |
| 12:46 | <darobin> | hsivonen: just realistic :) |
| 12:47 | <darobin> | once you've maintained the code for a decent sized web shop written by someone who doesn't understand what functions are for, you get a whole new perspective on which parts of the architecture actually matter |
| 12:48 | <hsivonen> | fortunately, for the purposes of the Web architecture, the server side language is a replaceable black box |
| 12:48 | <hsivonen> | so PHP isn’t really a mandatory part of the Architecture |
| 12:48 | <darobin> | indeed — but understanding the mindset is useful |
| 12:49 | <darobin> | for instance when you're handed a site where the developer decided he'd try out this newfangled "templating" idea |
| 12:49 | <darobin> | and went on to create one template per page, then to add comments about how he wasn't sure it helped his productivity |
| 12:50 | <darobin> | and complain about how since page IDs and template ID weren't the same, it made his URLs more complicated |
| 12:50 | darobin | could go on for a while, happy he's not doing production these days :) |
| 12:58 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: In theory it's a replaceable black box, but in practice the difference bwtween XSLT and PHP is architecturally important |
| 12:59 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: do you mean in terms of the consequences of the error patterns PHP enables? |
| 12:59 | <jgraham> | Yes |
| 13:01 | <jgraham> | Realising that the enforcable constraints on content producers are non-existent is important |
| 13:01 | <jgraham> | PHP and similar systems make the lack of constraints very obvious |
| 13:01 | <jgraham> | XSLT tries to impose constraints, so you might think it is reasonable to require them |
| 13:06 | <darobin> | that's true but I'm not sure it makes such a huge difference |
| 13:06 | <darobin> | if your constraints are limited to syntax, you're still missing all the constraints at the semantic level |
| 13:06 | <darobin> | unless you're talking about putting XML Schema in the loop |
| 13:08 | <hsivonen> | XML Schema is totally part of the Architecture! :-) |
| 13:43 | <darobin> | does anyone know a particularly nasty test to throw at idlharness.js? I want to break it as much as possible with the new parser |
| 13:50 | <zcorpan> | darobin: test all the specs :-P |
| 13:56 | <darobin> | zcorpan: at some point, I will, but in the meantime I'd like something smaller that can still be nasty :) |
| 13:56 | <darobin> | notably, so that I can run the tests faster and fix bugs |
| 14:10 | <annevk> | seems I hit a nerve on www-tag trash talking webarch |
| 14:12 | <darobin> | www-tag talking about webarch, that's new |
| 14:18 | <annevk> | smaug____: nodes have cycle detection? |
| 14:18 | <annevk> | smaug____: why is that? |
| 14:19 | <annevk> | smaug____: and where is that in the DOM specification? ... |
| 14:20 | <smaug____> | annevk: I mean if you have parent-child, you can't make that parent to be child of the child |
| 14:21 | <annevk> | smaug____: oh sure, but walking up the parent chain is always safe |
| 14:21 | <smaug____> | yes |
| 14:21 | <annevk> | smaug____: so you'd have logic for assigning .parent that would do the cycle detection? |
| 14:22 | <smaug____> | yes |
| 14:22 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 14:22 | <smaug____> | that same way nodes have |
| 14:22 | <smaug____> | when you insertBefore/appendChild |
| 14:22 | <annevk> | if you just pass the parent at construction time there's no need for any of that |
| 14:23 | <smaug____> | true |
| 14:53 | <zewt> | http://www.yellowcabaustin.com/ a certain lack of common sense in putting a phone number in an image |
| 14:58 | <Ms2ger> | Hmm, in Opera, NodeList.prototype.item === HTMLCollection.prototype.item |
| 15:05 | <AlmogBaku> | hello |
| 15:11 | <AlmogBaku> | Is somebody here? |
| 15:12 | <jgraham> | Everybody's dead, dave |
| 15:32 | <AlmogBaku> | :) |
| 15:38 | <AlmogBaku> | gi |
| 16:58 | <annevk> | EventReceiver is hard to spell |
| 16:58 | <annevk> | CustomEventTarget? |
| 16:59 | <darobin> | EventRecipient? |
| 17:00 | <annevk> | also hard to spell, no? |
| 17:00 | <darobin> | I don't find either hard to spell, so I might not be the best source here |
| 17:01 | <darobin> | I'd be more likely to misspell CustomEventTarget just due to length |
| 17:01 | <annevk> | heh |
| 17:02 | <annevk> | two subsequent vowels tend to be confusing, but maybe it's not a big deal |
| 17:08 | <annevk> | Is it just me being a bit confused with http://intertwingly.net/blog/2012/12/13/Changing-the-TAG ? |
| 17:08 | <annevk> | because if so, if someone could explain, I'm all ears :) |
| 17:10 | <darobin> | I think that Sam's seeing a red herring |
| 17:11 | <darobin> | well, at least for trivial IDLs I'm sort of surprised: updating idlharness to use WebIDL2.js was, like, less than ten lines of changes |
| 17:11 | darobin | is sure there are other issues lurking though |
| 17:34 | <Ms2ger> | TabAtkins, fwiw, anolis supports inter-document links ;) |
| 17:55 | <annevk> | ah, Sam explained, hurray |
| 17:58 | <annevk> | the +1 emails are starting to annoy me |
| 17:59 | <annevk> | when a group is large, they're just pointless and non-representative |
| 18:09 | <annevk> | smaug____: could you comment on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19962 maybe? |
| 18:10 | <smaug____> | will do |
| 18:14 | <annevk> | smaug____: any ideas for an easier to spell EventReceiver btw? CustomEventTarget maybe? |
| 18:15 | <annevk> | smaug____: might take a while for me to get to that btw, I want to fix the cross-boundary event stuff first as that'll introduce some new terminology that'll make it easier to introduce it |
| 18:16 | <smaug____> | CustomEventTarget sounds ok too |
| 18:21 | <annevk> | ta |
| 18:23 | <tantek> | what makes it Custom? |
| 18:24 | <tantek> | are target/receiver synonymous in this context? |
| 18:25 | <annevk> | it's Custom because it's for use by developers to create their own event target chains without having to resort to "heavy weight" node objects |
| 18:26 | <annevk> | and yes, they are synonymous |
| 18:50 | <AlmogBaku> | ? |
| 18:53 | <AlmogBaku> | hello everybody\ |
| 19:14 | <Yuhong> | <darobin> hsivonen: I don't think so, that's something you'd normally get the TAG to write for you |
| 19:14 | <Yuhong> | http://www.w3.org/wiki/Evolution |
| 19:16 | <annevk> | what subtlety am I missing here? |
| 19:16 | <annevk> | var x = self; document.open(); w(x === self) |
| 19:22 | <Hixie> | annevk: what are you expecting and what are you getting? |
| 19:22 | <Hixie> | i would imagine that would return true, since x and self are both WindowProxy objects proxying the same underlying Window |
| 19:22 | <annevk> | I'm getting true, I was expecting false given that document.open() replaces the Window object |
| 19:22 | <annevk> | okay |
| 19:23 | <Hixie> | try something like self.x = {}; var x = self; document.open(); w(x === self.x) |
| 19:23 | <annevk> | Hixie: well, it's not the same underlying Window |
| 19:23 | <annevk> | Hixie: does the "old" Window still have an associated Document object? |
| 19:24 | <Hixie> | the Document is associated with both Windows |
| 19:25 | <Hixie> | but what i meant was that the WindowProxy objects of x and self were the same WindowProxy object |
| 19:25 | <Hixie> | so regardless of what Window is active, they'll proxy the same window |
| 19:25 | <Hixie> | so if one changes, so does the other |
| 19:25 | <annevk> | right, understood |
| 19:26 | <annevk> | Hixie: does the spec make sure to identify the right window whenever there's talk about the document's associated Window? Or is that usually talking about the associated browsing context? |
| 19:26 | <Hixie> | i'm sure there are mistakes |
| 19:26 | <Hixie> | i haven't audited it |
| 19:27 | <Hixie> | i also need to audit the use of "entry script" vs "caller script" and "script origin" vs "script effective origin" |
| 19:30 | <annevk> | I'm glad both Windows are associated with the same Document, that will make XMLHttpRequest work at least |
| 19:32 | <annevk> | I guess at some point I should learn how all this works so I don't need to fact check everything all the time |
| 19:43 | <Hixie> | annevk: once you've learnt that, don't forget to teach me |
| 19:49 | <annevk> | http://i.imgur.com/hgBii.png o_O |
| 19:51 | <espadrine> | that's how babies learn their <main> purpose in life |
| 20:22 | <annevk> | I quite like how much progress we managed to make in the past couple of years. I still remember being told years ago that it would probably be very hard to update the DOM specifications to make getAttribute() return anything but a string, and make passing nodes across document boundaries not throw. Now it's no longer "can we update these specs", but rather "what do the specs need to say" which is so much better... |
| 20:31 | <annevk> | The Apple apologists would be a better read if every time they bring up Apple and privacy they also addressed that Apple still does not put the "Limit Ad Tracking" option under the Privacy tab in iOS but rather under General -> About -> (scroll all the way down) Advertising |
| 20:32 | <annevk> | http://www.loopinsight.com/2012/12/14/maps-blame-game/ is the latest in a series |
| 20:32 | <Hixie> | i still don't get how "give me ads that are less relevant" has any bearing on privacy |
| 20:32 | <Ms2ger> | Hixie, your views are known ;) |
| 20:32 | <annevk> | (I'm a happy iPhone fwiw) |
| 20:33 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, oh, can I have you? I could use one |
| 20:33 | <annevk> | hah, iPhone user* |
| 20:35 | <annevk> | Hixie: if it gets to the point where you could be profiled, it seems like it would impact my privacy |
| 20:35 | <Hixie> | "profiled"? |
| 20:35 | <Hixie> | maybe i don't understand what you mean by "privacy" |
| 20:38 | <annevk> | Hixie: since it's unclear what data is being stored, the data might lead back to me somehow, which I don't really like (although given the services I use I probably lost on that front already) |
| 20:38 | <Hixie> | "lead back to you" from where? for whom? |
| 20:39 | <annevk> | Hixie: from the data collected, by those who got access to the data |
| 20:40 | <Hixie> | wouldn't your IP be sufficient for that? |
| 20:40 | <Hixie> | i don't understand what we're worried about |
| 20:40 | <Hixie> | especially given that your phone company already knows your precise location at all times and that your credit card company knows everything you buy and that governments can subpeona those |
| 20:40 | <annevk> | I'm not worried, I just don't like it |
| 20:40 | <annevk> | I don't like that either :) |
| 20:41 | <annevk> | If I was worried I would be using Tor |
| 20:41 | <annevk> | but even that is not super I heard |
| 20:45 | <Hixie> | tor doesn't help you with the phone company or credit card company |
| 20:57 | <bholley> | Hixie: would it be possible to increase the MTU for whatwg digest emails? |
| 20:57 | <Hixie> | probably, what does that mean? :-) |
| 20:57 | <bholley> | Hixie: the "daily digest" mode sends more than one digest per day for "busy lists" |
| 20:58 | <bholley> | Hixie: and whatwg is very busy |
| 20:58 | <bholley> | Hixie: it seems to send out a new digest every 10 or so emails |
| 20:58 | <Hixie> | aah |
| 20:58 | <Hixie> | send me mail asking me ian⊙hc |
| 20:59 | <Hixie> | i'll do it after lunch |
| 20:59 | <Hixie> | bbiab |
| 20:59 | <bholley> | Hixie: thanks :-) |
| 23:00 | <annevk> | Ah yeah, HTTP headers are unordered I suppose, but order matters for duplicates at least... |
| 23:05 | <Hixie> | order matters for dupes in html attributes too |
| 23:05 | <Hixie> | at parse time :-) |
