| 00:03 | <GPHemsley> | zewt: I'm not sure. I was thinking it would cause some sort of compatibility issue somewhere if a page included an X-UA-Compatible declaration that forced IE users into Chrome. |
| 00:03 | <GPHemsley> | (Though I suppose that would be a rather small set of users.) |
| 00:05 | <zewt> | don't really know what that means, but if it lets people stuck in IE8 to trick their incompetent employment overlords into letting them use something less broken, that seems like a win |
| 00:24 | <GPHemsley> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome_Frame |
| 09:57 | <Stevef_> | darobin_: note bugs I filed http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Dec/0085.html are not directly related to general alt text advice clean up |
| 10:13 | <darobin> | Stevef_: yes, I noticed — thanks a lot! |
| 10:18 | <Stevef_> | darobin: don't think they are controversial since mostly about fixing inconsitiences with agreed upon conformance requirement |
| 10:18 | <darobin> | they didn't look controversial at first brush, I'll be looking at them more closely during the week |
| 11:32 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, fwiw, there's a TODO in idlharness about the parser not supporting legacycallers, but I couldn't care less about testing those :) |
| 11:40 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: yeah I saw that in a comment IIRC, but it's not something that I would see as a chart-topping feature request |
| 11:40 | <darobin> | one thing that wouldn't hurt would be a test suite for idlharness — but at some point I fear being trapped in an endlessly recursive reality |
| 11:42 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: can the timeout be increased in v.nu? http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jabcreations.com%2F&schema=http%3A%2F%2Fs.validator.nu%2Fxhtml1-ruby-rdf-svg-mathml.rnc+http%3A%2F%2Fs.validator.nu%2Fxhtml10%2Fxhtml.sch+http%3A%2F%2Fc.validator.nu%2Fall-html4%2F&parser=xml&showsource=yes times out most of the time for me |
| 11:58 | <zcorpan> | filed a bug |
| 12:09 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: didn’t time out for me now |
| 12:09 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: but yeah, waiting on IO is cheap except takes up a thread |
| 12:10 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: up until now, no one had complained about the timeouts, IIRC |
| 12:10 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: doesn't for me now, either. but it did more than half of the time half an hour ago |
| 12:12 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: timing out might be more expensive than not timing out since it probably causes the user to try again (and again) :-) |
| 12:16 | <hsivonen> | :-) |
| 12:17 | <hsivonen> | I’m mainly worried about all threads ending up waiting and the server hitting a thread number limit |
| 12:17 | <hsivonen> | (cue rant about Node.js vs. Java servlet threading model) |
| 12:29 | <annevk> | So I had plans to expand the URL API a bit. But maybe I should wait until the current one is implemented more widely? |
| 12:32 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: I guess it depends how big/valuable is what you want to add |
| 12:33 | <annevk> | Well, they're mostly ideas, in part based on what some libraries have out there and in part based on discussion with some of those library developers. |
| 12:33 | <annevk> | E.g. URL.isEqual(URL, options) |
| 12:34 | <annevk> | URL.segments (ideally returns a subclass of Array) |
| 12:34 | <annevk> | and maybe basename/dirname |
| 12:35 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: could these be left up to libraries? |
| 12:38 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: everything can :) |
| 12:39 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: but the whole reason we're adding new URL and such is because people prefer not to write and maintain those libraries |
| 12:40 | <annevk> | rwaldron: you around? |
| 12:41 | <annevk> | rwaldron: I was wondering if Object.observe is also available on Map/Array and such |
| 12:41 | <annevk> | rwaldron: and since you compare it with mutation observers in your post I wonder if it's related to the task queue or if it's immediate |
| 12:49 | <annevk> | oh |
| 12:49 | <annevk> | per https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es-discuss/2012-August/024555.html "delivery is async-ish (huzzah!)" which is not acceptable :( |
| 12:50 | <annevk> | I wonder how it's even possible to define a feature like that in ECMAScript which has no concept of a task queue |
| 13:37 | <smaug____> | hmm, has some often used page stopped using mutation event listeneres |
| 13:38 | <smaug____> | based on telemetry data something changed mid September |
| 13:46 | <annevk> | sounds good |
| 14:27 | <annevk> | hmm, posted to es-discuss |
| 14:27 | <annevk> | http://img3.ranker.com/list_img/9660/549660/full/the-best-of-the-and-quot-i-don-t-know-what-i-m-doing-and-quot-meme.jpg seems applicable |
| 14:32 | <annevk> | I guess at some point I should also try to post about IDL so we can get past the "IDL is fugly" and instead do something productive |
| 14:38 | <rwaldron> | annevk re: set/map etc in Object.observe, no they are not yet part of the spec. |
| 14:39 | <annevk> | hmm, forgot to ask about the async stuff was envisioned |
| 14:39 | <annevk> | rwaldron: ah okay |
| 14:56 | <smaug____> | annevk: where do we do type conversion so that a new object is created? (assuming I've understood correctly the 'set blob, get entry in filelist') |
| 14:57 | <annevk> | smaug____: input.type = 5; input.type > "text" (I think) |
| 14:58 | <smaug____> | no objects created |
| 14:58 | <annevk> | why is that a criteria though? |
| 14:58 | <smaug____> | setter would always need to define how the new object is created |
| 14:59 | <smaug____> | and it just feels odd |
| 15:00 | <annevk> | seems natural to me :) |
| 15:01 | <annevk> | assign this object a list of Y objects; return a list of Y objects wrapped in a Z object |
| 15:01 | <smaug____> | nothing natural there :) |
| 15:02 | <annevk> | given how you implement get/set for attributes in JavaScript it's kinda normal too they're gonna do distinct things |
| 15:02 | smaug____ | has the feeling he will not win this battle, since bz and sicking might want the feature |
| 15:03 | <smaug____> | annevk: that is no reason to make the default setters/getters to work in unexpected way |
| 15:04 | <annevk> | yeah, well, you also don't like putforwards, which I think is pretty great (and wish we had more, e.g. for .style) |
| 15:04 | <annevk> | I prefer convenience over artificial symmetry |
| 15:06 | <annevk> | whoa, original DOM had Range support for Attr |
| 15:06 | <annevk> | nuts I tell you |
| 15:08 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah |
| 15:10 | <darobin> | there isn't much that Attr didn't have |
| 15:10 | <Ms2ger> | Sanity |
| 15:11 | <darobin> | well, sanity... |
| 15:11 | <darobin> | heh, you beat me to it :) |
| 15:17 | <annevk> | I wonder if Indexed DB ended up removing DOMStringList |
| 15:18 | <annevk> | nope |
| 15:18 | <annevk> | CSSOM still has it too |
| 15:18 | <annevk> | Only Hixie removed it from HTML |
| 15:19 | <annevk> | Kinda tempted to remove it from DOM |
| 15:19 | <Ms2ger> | sgtm |
| 15:22 | <annevk> | boom |
| 16:48 | <marcosc> | Peoples, quick question... can adding a WebIDL serializer to an object cause conflicts with Web Workers? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2012OctDec/0722.html |
| 16:50 | <Ms2ger> | ... eh? |
| 16:51 | <marcosc> | Ms2ger: was that a response to me? |
| 16:52 | <annevk> | What's a serializer? |
| 16:52 | <marcosc> | annevk: .toJSON ... get you pointer ..one sec |
| 16:53 | <Ms2ger> | marcosc, no, that's nonsense |
| 16:53 | <marcosc> | annevk: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#dfn-serializer |
| 16:53 | <Ms2ger> | If input is a host object (e.g. a DOM node) |
| 16:53 | <Ms2ger> | Throw a DataCloneError exception and abort the overall structured clone algorithm. |
| 16:54 | <marcosc> | right, that's what I thought |
| 16:54 | <marcosc> | thanks Ms2ger :) |
| 16:55 | <Ms2ger> | Np |
| 16:55 | <annevk> | so which objects use this serializer thingie? |
| 16:55 | <annevk> | and why isn't it called json? |
| 16:55 | <annevk> | heycam|away: if serializer is JSON, maybe name it that way? |
| 16:55 | <Ms2ger> | Performance should, but I don't think they bothered |
| 16:56 | <marcosc> | annevk: I think it's to do with getting for free from ES6 |
| 16:57 | <annevk> | not following |
| 16:57 | <marcosc> | If I read WebIDL correctly, ES6 has a native .toJSON function on Object? |
| 16:57 | <annevk> | fwiw: http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#introduction-to-dom-ranges |
| 16:59 | <Ms2ger> | Interesting example |
| 16:59 | <annevk> | took me ages to find something usable, at some point I figured an image and a sentence would do, which gave me w3cmemes :) |
| 17:02 | <annevk> | <- bad at examples |
| 17:09 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 17:21 | <tantek> | good morning dglazkov! |
| 18:08 | <MikeSmith> | cool to see http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#introduction-to-dom-ranges |
| 18:08 | <MikeSmith> | but dunno why you put the scary quotes in the heading |
| 18:09 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: ↑ |
| 18:11 | <MikeSmith> | also "In the node tree above a range can be used" might would be nicer with a comma in there |
| 18:11 | <MikeSmith> | "In the node tree above, a range can be used" |
| 18:11 | <Hixie> | i think amazon may be in the process of updating their graphics assets |
| 18:11 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: I used the quotes in "The DOM" and "DOM Events" too |
| 18:11 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: because they're not quite the official name anymore |
| 18:11 | <Hixie> | as i'm going through checkout, it's alternating between 2008-style graphics and 1998-style graphics |
| 18:11 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: but still commonly used |
| 18:12 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: ah OK |
| 18:12 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: weird |
| 18:12 | <annevk> | open to changing that though, will add the comma |
| 18:12 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: "Michael™ Smith" for ack right? |
| 18:13 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: speaking of weird, I notice some weird formatting after http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-range-startcontainer etc. |
| 18:13 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: yeah |
| 18:13 | <MikeSmith> | there's extra horizontal space after the dfn terms |
| 18:13 | <annevk> | that's an intentional <hr> |
| 18:13 | <annevk> | :) |
| 18:14 | <annevk> | to provide some space between related stuff |
| 18:14 | <MikeSmith> | oh but only in Chrome maybe |
| 18:14 | <annevk> | it matches the IDL formatting |
| 18:14 | <MikeSmith> | hmm went away after reload anyway |
| 18:14 | <annevk> | but subtle I suppose |
| 18:14 | <annevk> | bit* |
| 18:15 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: but what I was seeing was like an exta 2em of space after each one |
| 18:15 | <annevk> | after each? oh |
| 18:15 | <annevk> | sounds like a rendering glitch |
| 18:16 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 18:17 | <MikeSmith> | anyway I also like the comment in the source with a link to w3cmemes |
| 18:17 | <MikeSmith> | more specs should have those |
| 18:18 | <matjas> | zcorpan: http://simon.html5.org/specs/quirks-mode says “This document has been superseded. See http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/quirks-mode/raw-file/tip/Overview.html.” but that URL is broken now |
| 18:18 | <Hixie> | (quirks.spec.whatwg.org in case you are still looking for it) |
| 18:19 | <matjas> | thanks |
| 18:20 | <annevk> | thanks for the feedback MikeSmith |
| 18:20 | <annevk> | adding a sentence on attributes now that I forgot, and your comma |
| 18:20 | <zcorpan> | matjas: i've tried to get that to redirect but failed |
| 18:20 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: in case pubteam or whoever is in charge of mail archives doesn't read www-talk, someone is offering archive e-mail mboxes there for some historical lists |
| 18:21 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: yeah saw that just now |
| 18:21 | <annevk> | whoa that's cool |
| 18:21 | <MikeSmith> | will forward it to the systems team |
| 18:22 | <annevk> | can someone ping me when they're up? :) |
| 18:22 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: committed |
| 18:26 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: cool |
| 18:26 | <MikeSmith> | I e-mailed systems team about the archives |
| 18:43 | <MikeSmith> | matjas: heycam|away made a patch that adds details+summary support to Gecko. I tried it with your http://mathiasbynens.be/demo/html5-details-jquery demo page and it works as expected except that the disclosure triangles aren't displayed |
| 18:43 | <MikeSmith> | but they are displayed if I turn off your CSS |
| 18:43 | <MikeSmith> | there are some try builds of it if you want to check |
| 18:43 | <MikeSmith> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=591737#c22 |
| 18:44 | <MikeSmith> | or can build from heycam|away patch https://bug591737.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=692862 |
| 22:41 | <annevk> | dglazkov: thanks for the reply |
| 22:43 | <annevk> | dglazkov: it might not be before mid-Feb or so that I'll fix DOM event handling, though now more of the details become clear maybe I can fit it in somehow sooner |
| 22:45 | <Hixie> | jonlee: yt? |
| 23:00 | <jonlee> | Hixie: pong |
| 23:00 | <annevk> | Anyone else reading http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/12/13-minutes "who are we writing the architecture document for? I think we're writing it for young guys starting to create web sites" |
| 23:00 | <annevk> | ? |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | jonlee: hi |
| 23:07 | <jonlee> | Hixie: hello |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | jonlee: i was told you are the person to talk to about context menus in html at apple |
| 23:08 | <Hixie> | jonlee: was wondering if you had any input on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Nov/0369.html |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | smaug____: btw, your continued input on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Dec/0046.html would be most welcome |
| 23:09 | <jonlee> | Hixie: looking |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | jonlee: thanks |
| 23:09 | <smaug____> | Hixie: will do later this night |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | smaug____: awesome |
| 23:23 | <TabAtkins> | Is there a naming convention for enums in DOM? |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | lowercase |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | english |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | one word, ideally |
| 23:24 | <TabAtkins> | I mean the identifier. ^_^ |
| 23:24 | <TabAtkins> | The enum's type, used in webidl. |
| 23:25 | <Hixie> | oh |
| 23:25 | <Hixie> | same as interfaces |
| 23:25 | <TabAtkins> | Okay. |
| 23:25 | <TabAtkins> | Was just making sure we didn't do something like pre/suffix them with "Enum" or something. |
| 23:25 | <Hixie> | not currently |
| 23:25 | <Hixie> | still early days though, if you want to try to start a convention :-) |
| 23:26 | <jwalden> | prefixes? do not want |
| 23:26 | <TabAtkins> | I'd prefer not doing so. Was just checking. |
| 23:27 | TabAtkins | is giving feedback on the Ambient Light API. |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | lol |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | w3c just violated the process again |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | http://www.w3.org/2012/12/html5-cr http://goo.gl/mQ56m |
| 23:55 | <TabAtkins> | Wait, what? It went to CR? |
| 23:58 | <zewt> | "html 5.1"? i have to say, the w3c is a fucking absurd joke |
