| 00:00 | <tantek> | general problem with arguments of the form "not something … in my experience" |
| 00:00 | <zewt> | (sorry, i just don't think this is worth replying to) |
| 00:02 | <Hixie> | ok, critics, start your engines: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#table-sorting-model |
| 00:02 | <zewt> | i need to hack something up in firefox so if it ever is about to load the html spec, it punts the url to chrome |
| 00:03 | <annevk> | Hixie: what might be kind of unexpected is that setting a sorted attribute and then removing it will not return the table to its original state |
| 00:03 | <Hixie> | that is true, but i have no idea how to change that |
| 00:04 | <tantek> | per http://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamson/ENGL1311/fallacies.htm - Ad Hominem Argument "[…] Also applies to cases where potential opposing arguments are brushed aside without comment or consideration, as *simply not worth arguing* about" |
| 00:05 | <annevk> | Hixie: crazy idea: sort the render boxes |
| 00:05 | <annevk> | nn |
| 00:05 | <Hixie> | yeah, i considered that |
| 00:05 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 00:06 | <annevk> | oh, and before I forget, happy b-day! |
| 00:06 | <Hixie> | thanks :-) |
| 00:06 | <tantek> | Hixie, today's your b-day? Happy b-day! |
| 00:07 | <Hixie> | today in europe |
| 00:07 | <Hixie> | tomorrow here |
| 00:07 | <tantek> | UTC? |
| 00:07 | <Hixie> | 27th |
| 00:11 | <Hixie> | if anyone here has IE, could you let me know what the Log says on this page? http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2047 (any version of IE will do) |
| 00:14 | <zewt> | log: false |
| 00:14 | <zewt> | log: 1000 |
| 00:14 | <zewt> | log: false |
| 00:14 | <zewt> | rendering mode: CSS1Compat |
| 00:14 | <zewt> | document has no title |
| 00:14 | <zewt> | log: true |
| 00:14 | <zewt> | ie9 |
| 00:14 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 00:25 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Happy birthday, in the unlikely circumstance you are in this part of the world! |
| 00:29 | <Hixie> | thanks :-) |
| 01:18 | <Hixie> | https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20524 <-- people with concrete ideas for how to sort, please comment here |
| 01:25 | <dydx> | annevk: you there? |
| 09:13 | <Ms2ger> | Did rniwa have tests for the OverrideBuiltins stuff? |
| 09:17 | <Ms2ger> | And happy birthday, Hixie |
| 11:24 | annevk | is here now.... |
| 11:30 | <annevk> | Hixie: concept-node-remove is lacking a <dfn> |
| 11:30 | <annevk> | Hixie: what's also lacking is "tree order" where you invoke it |
| 11:30 | <annevk> | Hixie: that's kinda important for the mutation records that will be created |
| 11:31 | <annevk> | Hixie: did you dismiss sorting layout boxes because Selectors would be fucked? that was a pretty big negative I could think of |
| 11:39 | <Velmont> | So IIUC <table sortable><tr sorted=1>Age <tr sorted=2>Name to sort by Age, then Name? :-) |
| 11:39 | <annevk> | Hixie: <td><time datetime="2011">MMXIV</time> metadata mismatch |
| 11:40 | <annevk> | Velmont: if you add a <tr> and change your tr to th, yes |
| 11:41 | <Velmont> | Uh, yeah. I didn't mean to write that... <table sortable><tr><th sorted=1>Age <th sorted=2>Name |
| 11:41 | <Velmont> | Let's blame early morning etc :S :D |
| 11:43 | <annevk> | Hixie: #type-and-value-of-the-cell should also ignore ProcessingInstruction I think |
| 11:43 | <annevk> | Velmont: early? yeah... |
| 11:46 | <annevk> | Hixie: disregard the earlier comment on concept-node-remove... |
| 11:46 | annevk | forgot to refresh |
| 11:47 | <Velmont> | annevk: Well, I just woke up at least :-) I wonder how we'll render the "sorted by first, second" hints. Some authors inevitably want to override that as well. |
| 11:48 | <annevk> | Velmont: idea yesterday was to only show the primary key in the UI, put the arrow in ::after, and have some kind of pseudo-class that applies to the <th> element that is the primary key |
| 11:51 | <Velmont> | annevk: There's bound to be lots of confusion by that. E.g. using the Django admin, which has that functionality already (but serverside), it shows 1> 2> when you have sorted on several, and you can remove the sort by clicking on it again. |
| 11:52 | <Velmont> | Either the sort should only do one-column when invoked by the user, -- so that clicking a new header would cancel the old one. Or it needs UI. |
| 12:07 | <Ms2ger> | Hey Velmont, want to write some tests? :) |
| 12:07 | <Ms2ger> | Anne here had an interesting conversation about OverrideBuiltins yesterday |
| 12:23 | <Velmont> | Ms2ger: Working on MediaGoblin right now. :] |
| 12:43 | <annevk> | I think I'm finally learning enough about JavaScript to understand where Alex is coming from... |
| 12:44 | <annevk> | new document.constructor not working is indeed kinda odd |
| 14:52 | <annevk> | I wonder if there's some way we could make a custom sort comparator work by executing the callback in some kind of sandboxed environment... |
| 14:53 | <annevk> | But maybe that's too much complexity for little gain... |
| 17:25 | <zewt> | annevk: workers are pretty much our sandboxed environment (but yeah, that'd be very complex) |
| 17:28 | jwalden | is reminded of a testcase he needs to write/patch, maybe |
| 18:31 | <Hixie> | annevk: concept-node-remove has a dfn as far as I can tell, did I make a mistake? |
| 18:33 | <Hixie> | Velmont: you can do the rendering of hints for subkeys using [sorted=~"2"] etc |
| 18:34 | <Hixie> | annevk: the comparator needs access to the HTMLTableCellElements, unfortunately, which pretty much precludes any sandboxing |
| 19:05 | <jwalden> | any spec experts on GSP and maybe WebIDL such around? I'm wondering what's supposed to be the specified printout for http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2049 -- would guess .constructor would be directly on |window|, and the frame-name would only appear if property lookup hit the GSP, which it thus wouldn't, but that's pure guesswork |
| 19:05 | <jwalden> | right now it appears engines save for WebKit print [object Window] |
| 19:06 | <Ms2ger> | Correct, I think |
| 19:08 | <jwalden> | one of my patches removing a use of JSRESOLVE_ASSIGNING I think fixes this for Gecko, noticed while thinking about testcase-writing and such |
| 19:08 | Ms2ger | looks |
| 19:08 | <jwalden> | interesting to note that window.constructor in WebKit isn't a function, apparently |
| 19:08 | <Ms2ger> | I might have a test for this... |
| 19:08 | <jwalden> | I haven't posted the patch yet |
| 19:08 | <jwalden> | because of not-tested yet :-) |
| 19:09 | <jwalden> | well, not-automatic-testcase-tested yet :-) |
| 19:12 | <Ms2ger> | Hrm |
| 19:12 | <Ms2ger> | My test claims constructor should be an own property on Window.prototype |
| 19:13 | <jwalden> | erm, actually, yes, that's correcter behavior :-) |
| 19:14 | <jwalden> | as concerns that specific test I don't think it distinguishes, just that it's on an object before the GSP in |window|'s [[Prototype]] chain |
| 21:48 | <GPHemsley> | Emory University offers a continuing education class that teaches XHTML, described as "the newest version of HTML" |
| 21:50 | <jwalden> | could be an obsolescent description |
| 21:50 | <jwalden> | one hopes |
| 21:51 | <GPHemsley> | maybe |
| 21:51 | <GPHemsley> | I've seen it in multiple catalogs |
| 21:51 | <GPHemsley> | and the funny thing is, they also offer a separate class specifically for "HTML5" |
| 22:03 | <jwalden> | ... |
| 22:13 | <annevk> | zewt: workers don't work because they're async |
| 22:14 | <annevk> | Hixie: could operate on textContent or some JSON-based tree... but yeah, very much not v1 material and prolly not at all until we get that for free somehow |
| 22:16 | <annevk> | Hixie: the concept-node-remove thing was my mistake, I forgot to reload |
| 22:17 | <annevk> | Hixie: there was some feedback on twitter too |
| 22:18 | <annevk> | Hixie: https://twitter.com/slicknet/status/284355352252805120 https://twitter.com/dascritch/status/284300438969405440 https://twitter.com/dstorey/status/284359061695250432 |
| 22:19 | <annevk> | Hixie: or 1) are <th> elements in sortable tables focusable? 2) would like explicit typing to catch mistakes 3) can we have <ul sortable>? |
| 22:23 | <annevk> | Hixie: you forgot to fix <td><time datetime="2011">MMXIV</time> in the spec (metadata mismatch) |
| 22:29 | <annevk> | jwalden: looks like [NamedPropertiesObject] has a similar effect to [OverrideBuiltins] so it appears the spec would suggest it returns the Window object there |
| 22:30 | <jwalden> | ugh |
| 22:30 | <jwalden> | maybe |
| 22:33 | <annevk> | jwalden: sorry, I think http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#getownproperty suggests I'm mistaken |
| 22:34 | <jwalden> | /o\^H^H^H\o/ |
| 22:34 | <jwalden> | :-D |
| 22:35 | <annevk> | if you do window.constructor per ES you invoke [[GetOwnProperty]] of window? |
| 22:35 | <jwalden> | yeah, you should |
| 22:35 | <jwalden> | among other operations, depending |
| 22:35 | <annevk> | okay then yes, you would not hit the named property in this case |
| 22:36 | annevk | is trying to learn more of ECMAScript |
| 22:38 | <jwalden> | the algorithms for property lookups and gets and sets are...in flux, right now |
| 22:38 | <jwalden> | the newer algorithms that are going into ES6 are the ones you want to know more of, more or less |
| 22:39 | <jwalden> | but in most cases you have [[GetOwnProperty]] called on the object, then its [[Prototype]], and recursively until the property is found, at *some* point in each algorithm |
| 22:39 | <jwalden> | the [[GetOwnProperty]] on Window.prototype is what would find the .constructor === Window property |
| 22:39 | <jwalden> | well |
| 22:40 | <annevk> | do you know when https://people.mozilla.com/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html will be updated? |
| 22:40 | <jwalden> | annevk: "would not hit the named property" means would get .constructor === Window, or means it'd get the <iframe> window? |
| 22:40 | <jwalden> | annevk: unsure, I could ping him tho |
| 22:40 | <annevk> | jwalden: the former |
| 22:40 | <jwalden> | okay |
| 22:41 | <annevk> | jwalden: if you read that algorithm it says that for Window, which has [NamedPropertiesObject] it would use the "internal" [[GetOwnProperty]] method, which would never get the <iframe> of course... |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | annevk: 1) haven't really figure that out yet, want implementor feedback (should the cell be focusable? the contents? some separate UI? obviously something needs to be focusable). 2) that seems like a general table problem, not sorting-specific. Would be nice though. See if hsivonen or MikeSmith want to support it... 3) How would that work? |
| 22:42 | <annevk> | ideally once ES6 is out heycam changes IDL to define thigns in terms of proxies or some such |
| 22:42 | <jwalden> | window wouldn't have anything in this case, Window.prototype would have .constructor === Window, the GSP would have .constructor === the iframe (maybe, not sure exactly if you can frob things just right to make that happen or not) |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | don't understand "metadata mismatch" |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | what metadata? |
| 22:43 | <Hixie> | oh you mean the data is inconsistent? |
| 22:43 | <jwalden> | well, as long as IDL hits all the [[Internal]] properties, I think it shouldn't need much tweaking |
| 22:43 | <annevk> | Hixie: 2011 != 2014 |
| 22:43 | <jwalden> | the ES6 tweaks are to the algorithms that invoke those, I think |
| 22:43 | <annevk> | Hixie: I thought we'd call that kind of stuff hidden metadata |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | just seems like data to me |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | metadata is things like what type the data is |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | so e.g. in that example, the <time> element is metadata (says that it's a time), and the contents of datetime and of the element are data. |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | https://twitter.com/dascritch/status/284300438969405440 doesn't make sense to me |
| 22:54 | <annevk> | jwalden: so I don't understand the algorithm :/ |
| 22:54 | <annevk> | jwalden: in particular reading http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#getownproperty I don't understand how with [NamedPropertiesObject] declared you can ever end up returning a value based on a named property |
| 22:56 | <annevk> | Hixie: <ul sortable> I guess would work in the same way you sort a table, except you have only one column, not entirely convinced it's very useful though |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | yeah i don't really see how that work work. why not just sort it on the server? |
| 22:57 | <Hixie> | if a browser wants to sort the list, they can, i mean, the spec says that's ok |
| 22:57 | <Hixie> | the whole point of <ol> is that the order doesn't matter to the page |
| 22:57 | <Hixie> | er |
| 22:57 | <Hixie> | <ul> |
| 23:46 | <jwalden> | annevk: ...yeah, I probably need to do some deep reading of that soon; not today, tho, out of time for the day |