| 00:03 | <heycam> | w3.org down? |
| 02:30 | <paul_irish> | hober: can you help me out with a whatwg wiki account? username "Paul Irish" |
| 02:50 | <MikeSmith> | paul_irish: will try to see if I have perms |
| 02:51 | <paul_irish> | you do |
| 02:51 | <MikeSmith> | heycam|away: entire MIT network is dropping off due to a routing problem |
| 02:51 | <MikeSmith> | paul_irish: ok gimme a minute |
| 02:51 | <paul_irish> | no rush! :) |
| 02:55 | <MikeSmith> | paul_irish: ok, you want the account created? |
| 04:14 | <paul_irish> | MikeSmith: yeah |
| 04:19 | <MikeSmith> | paul_irish: pusshed on the button on it a while back |
| 04:19 | <MikeSmith> | should be mail in your inbox |
| 04:19 | <MikeSmith> | sent to your gmail account |
| 04:24 | <paul_irish> | thx dude |
| 09:01 | <annevk> | If an interface has a constructor, does a derived interface necessarily need a constructor? |
| 10:12 | <annevk> | I had not realized UI Events was just some patching on top of DOM3 Events :/ |
| 10:27 | <annevk> | smaug____: we could also do new EventTarget(eventParent) |
| 10:27 | <annevk> | smaug____: I think |
| 10:28 | <annevk> | smaug____: we could even consider always exposing the eventParent as a readonly attribute on EventTarget, but I'm not sure that's worth it |
| 10:28 | <hsivonen> | from the department of entirely unsurprising news: the IE9 mode in IE10 does not actually match IE9. For example, IE9 mode in IE10 accepts unprefixed 2D transforms but real IE9 does not (requires -ms-). |
| 10:30 | <annevk> | "House of cards" |
| 10:30 | <smaug____> | I think we need some kind of parent |
| 10:31 | <smaug____> | but having it in EventTarget might be a bit odd |
| 10:31 | <smaug____> | though... |
| 10:31 | <annevk> | smaug____: Why do we need to expose it explicitly? |
| 10:31 | <smaug____> | because it makes sense ? |
| 10:32 | <smaug____> | :) |
| 10:32 | <annevk> | smaug____: The best kind of argument |
| 10:32 | <smaug____> | I wonder if IDB might need eventParent |
| 10:32 | <smaug____> | need to ask sicking about that |
| 10:33 | <annevk> | Well I'm going to rewrite concept-event-dispatch to use an "event parent" concept at least to calculate the object chain before dispatching |
| 10:33 | <annevk> | So IDB and others can use that |
| 10:34 | <annevk> | But it does not need to be exposed. E.g. that for event purposes Window is the parent of Document is not exposed in such a way either at the moment |
| 10:35 | <smaug____> | it is |
| 10:35 | <smaug____> | .defaultView |
| 10:36 | <annevk> | That's not really convincing and was not introduced for that purpose at all... |
| 11:13 | <SimonSapin> | Hi annevk_. A few questions about http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/#utf-8-decoder … |
| 11:14 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: what about it? |
| 11:14 | <SimonSapin> | the algorithm "returns" one code point/EOF/error and is called repeatedly, right? |
| 11:15 | <SimonSapin> | when it says "emit" something, the steps stop there for this iteration |
| 11:16 | <SimonSapin> | "Let byte be the value at byte pointer." is that a copy, or does byte (potentially) change when byte pointer does? |
| 11:24 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: and I think that "Increase the byte pointer by one." is not at the right place, but I’m not sure what would fix it |
| 11:25 | <SimonSapin> | and it might be possible to avoid "Decrease the byte pointer by one." by moving the range checking earlier |
| 11:26 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: /byte/ is either a copy or a pointer, but if byte pointer changes byte does not |
| 11:28 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: I believe the algorithm is correct though |
| 11:28 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: but there's many ways to implement a utf-8 decoder |
| 11:29 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: it’s probably correct, but I don’t find it very clear |
| 11:29 | <SimonSapin> | it’s not obvious that you should not continue the steps after "emit" |
| 11:30 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: did you read section 4? |
| 11:31 | <annevk> | but yeah, I'm not entirely satisfied with how that works at the moment |
| 11:31 | <SimonSapin> | section 4 might be what I was missing |
| 11:31 | <annevk> | I did it mainly this way to reduce the overhead as it would be the same everywhere, but maybe self-contained algorithms would be better |
| 11:32 | <SimonSapin> | maybe just refer to section 4 every time |
| 11:33 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: anyway I started https://github.com/SimonSapin/rust-webencodings |
| 11:33 | <SimonSapin> | and learning rust along the way |
| 11:33 | <annevk> | oh cool |
| 11:33 | <annevk> | you should tell the Mozilla guys |
| 11:34 | <annevk> | they might wanna use it ;) |
| 11:35 | <SimonSapin> | I will, once it does a bit more |
| 11:37 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: fwiw, seems they already link to section 4 |
| 11:38 | <annevk> | "The utf-8 decoder (decoder for utf-8) is:" the second "decoder" is a link back to what decoder actually means |
| 11:38 | <SimonSapin> | oh, missed that |
| 11:47 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: do you have encoding tests? |
| 11:48 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: I have http://dump.testsuite.org/encoding/single-byte-test.html |
| 11:48 | <annevk> | I've been meaning to convert that one to testharness.js to make Ms2ger happy |
| 11:49 | <annevk> | I'd need some information on whether using PHP is fine... |
| 11:49 | <darobin> | annevk: using PHP is fine |
| 11:49 | <darobin> | it just needs to get reviewed before being imported to the test server |
| 11:49 | <darobin> | but since the repo isn't synced yet, that's not an immediate problem |
| 11:49 | <annevk> | darobin: so the other problem with that test seems to be that it triggers the slow script dialog in Gecko |
| 11:50 | <annevk> | darobin: I could probably make it 30 or so static files instead generated with Python |
| 11:51 | <darobin> | annevk: doesn't trigger that here, though it did trigger my mental "There's something wrong here" dialog :) |
| 11:51 | <annevk> | although hmmm might require some .htaccess |
| 11:51 | <annevk> | heh |
| 11:51 | <annevk> | it fetches the same thing about 50 times or so sync |
| 11:51 | <annevk> | each time with a different header |
| 11:52 | <darobin> | hmmm, synchronous XHR, adding methods to a core prototype — full of lovely :) |
| 11:55 | <annevk> | darobin: well all that can be rewritten, the test was mostly a quick hack to figure a few things out |
| 11:55 | <annevk> | just not sure what the desired features are of a largish test |
| 11:57 | <darobin> | annevk: I know, I was just poking fun |
| 11:57 | <darobin> | annevk: I wonder, could this be turned into a bunch of distinct tests? |
| 11:57 | <darobin> | with testharness and all |
| 11:57 | <annevk> | yeah, as I said, I could generate them from Python |
| 11:57 | <darobin> | just so that it doesn't trigger any slowness warnings |
| 11:57 | <annevk> | or some other language |
| 11:58 | <darobin> | ah, ok that's what you meant — sorry, wasn't clear on that bit |
| 11:58 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: testing single bytes encoding based on their index is easy enough. I’m more interested in corner cases like how many replacement characters do you get for a given invalid UTF-8 sequence |
| 11:58 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: http://code.google.com/p/stringencoding/ might have tests |
| 11:58 | <darobin> | annevk: I don't have a strong opinion, but at the very least if it's going to be big and slow it's better if there's some sort of progress indication |
| 11:59 | <darobin> | even if it's just a <pre> listing the parts being tested |
| 11:59 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: agreed that those are more desirable |
| 12:00 | <darobin> | I reckon that making it xhr-async will cause it to spin the event loop often enough to avoid the slow script dialog |
| 14:03 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: did you before have a thing somewhere like http://www.lookout.net/test/url/url-liveview.html ? |
| 14:03 | <MikeSmith> | Chris says in his blog post he thought you did but he can't remember the address |
| 14:04 | <annevk> | http://dump.testsuite.org/url/inspect.html |
| 14:04 | <annevk> | I commented on his G+ post |
| 14:05 | <annevk> | How did you get the correct link to his tool? :) |
| 14:05 | <MikeSmith> | ah ok |
| 14:05 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: through URL surgery |
| 14:05 | <annevk> | heh |
| 14:05 | <MikeSmith> | fitting :) |
| 14:06 | <hsivonen> | http://www.delorie.com:81/some/url.txt is down. Does anyone know a substitute? |
| 14:06 | <annevk> | hsivonen: something like http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/cgi/test-tools/echo maybe? |
| 14:07 | <hsivonen> | annevk: thanks. not quite as pure but works for my purposes today |
| 14:07 | <annevk> | yeah, the raw dump stuff was nice |
| 14:10 | <hsivonen> | can “Browser Modes” 7 through 9 (not “Document Modes”) in IE10 be activated by means other than the dev tools? |
| 14:10 | <hsivonen> | that is, can an intranet admin activate them for particular sites? |
| 14:11 | <hsivonen> | oh awesome. IE10 doesn’t have application/xml in Accept |
| 14:11 | <hsivonen> | we should drop that |
| 14:12 | <hsivonen> | oh. IE9 doesn’t either |
| 14:12 | <hsivonen> | I thought it did |
| 14:20 | <annevk> | Heh https://twitter.com/aaronsw/status/140810339771097088 hadn't seen that before |
| 14:27 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 14:32 | <jesusruiz> | one question, WHATWG specification differs from the W3C specification?. |
| 14:33 | <jesusruiz> | I speak from the time of the final specification, the W3C that seem set for 2014. |
| 14:34 | <jesusruiz> | But I do not see the WHATWG definite date. |
| 14:35 | <hsivonen> | jesusruiz: It’s a living spec. There’s no end date. |
| 14:37 | <jesusruiz> | hsivonen thanks for the reply ;) |
| 14:38 | <jesusruiz> | What I have not entirely clear is, after a bit of separation that has had the WHATG and W3C specification that must be followed. |
| 14:39 | <jesusruiz> | I like the freedom of WHATG. |
| 14:39 | <jesusruiz> | WHATWG |
| 14:40 | <jesusruiz> | but if the specs are going to be something different, and not as a developer which follow. |
| 14:41 | <hsivonen> | jesusruiz: follow the WHATWG spec |
| 14:41 | <hsivonen> | jesusruiz: the W3C spec will be out of date by construction, since the W3C publishes snapshots |
| 14:42 | <jesusruiz> | hsivonen Yes, I feel more identified with this group. So I think you're right. |
| 14:43 | <jesusruiz> | It is an important reason you mention. |
| 15:02 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, I'm so glad you want to make me happy :) |
| 15:03 | <Ms2ger> | GPHemsley, sounds like work... |
| 15:42 | <Stevef> | hsivonen: HTML 5.1 is only a little behind and in front in some ways |
| 16:06 | <MikeSmith> | http://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2013-January/023326.html |
| 16:07 | <MikeSmith> | (Sent from) |
| 16:09 | <Ms2ger> | Oh really |
| 17:25 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 17:41 | <hober> | paul_irish: sorry, just seeing your msg now. thankfully MikeSmith got to you first. :) |
| 17:51 | <paul_irish> | hober: yup! np thx |
| 18:47 | <stevefaulkner> | MikeSmith: can you give me the URL for the numarkup dev validator? |
| 19:04 | <Ms2ger> | "To me, it looks longer." |
| 19:16 | <Ms2ger> | Hear, hear: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20665 |
| 19:27 | <GPHemsley> | Ms2ger: I'm just saying, if somebody comes to you and asks, you can help them. ;) |
| 19:27 | <Ms2ger> | GPHemsley, I wish I didn't know that :) |
| 19:28 | <GPHemsley> | Ms2ger: If it makes you feel any better, there are a bunch of people in this channel who have that power. |
| 19:29 | <GPHemsley> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&group=autoconfirmed |
| 19:29 | <Ms2ger> | Good to know |
| 19:31 | <GPHemsley> | (And I'm happy to add more people to that list, if anyone wants to make suggestions.) |
| 19:32 | <jesusruiz> | GPHemsley Do you only keep the wiki? |
| 19:33 | <GPHemsley> | jesusruiz: I think I'm chief in charge, but I believe there are others. Why? |
| 19:33 | <jesusruiz> | documentation of the specification, not keep you? |
| 19:33 | <GPHemsley> | jesusruiz: Specifications are generally not maintained via the wiki. |
| 19:34 | <jesusruiz> | I know that is not normal, but you are missing a possible translation of the documentation. |
| 19:34 | <jesusruiz> | a platform that could help translate into some languages. |
| 19:35 | <jesusruiz> | but well, neither does the W3C. So, time to time :) |
| 19:35 | <jesusruiz> | GPHemsley thanks for the info ;) |
| 19:36 | Ms2ger | has never seen the point of translating specifications |
| 19:36 | <GPHemsley> | jesusruiz: Well, I'm not in charge of that. You'll have to talk to Hixie or others with more influence on that. |
| 19:37 | <jesusruiz> | Well, for those who know English no problem. In fact, English is very common to know, but some people do not know the language. |
| 19:37 | <Ms2ger> | Do those people implement browsers? |
| 19:38 | <jesusruiz> | for example php is translating the documentation. It was a simple idea. |
| 19:38 | <Ms2ger> | Specification != documentation |
| 19:39 | <Ms2ger> | Translating documentation makes a lot of sense, but we're not in the documentation business |
| 19:41 | <jesusruiz> | Ms2ger Yeah, right. Anyway, I guess the documentation can be translated personally by others. Always keeping course and asking permission rights. |
| 19:43 | <jesusruiz> | I ask on the mailing list :) Thanks to all |
| 21:08 | <jgraham> | https://www.frederik-braun.com/thesis/ (via miketaylr) |
| 21:09 | <jgraham> | Also, it looks like crap in pdf.js, if someone wants to report that |
| 21:11 | <jgraham> | Also, 73 pages? That's crazy-short (doesn't mean that it's not good, of course) |
| 22:40 | <eighty4> | gsnedders: You should know this :) What version/revision of html5 was target deprecated? http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/a.html#a.attrs.target "The target attribute on the a element was deprecated in a previous version of HTML, but is no longer deprecated" |
| 22:46 | <tantek> | 4 |
| 22:55 | <eighty4> | gsnedders: right… some kind of brain**** nevermind. |
| 23:22 | <annevk> | Translation of specifications is most definitely useful. Not everyone knows English growing up (or for that matter later in life) and yet might want to know the inner workings of the web. |
| 23:23 | <annevk> | We lose out on massive amounts of feedback from the Japanese community alone due to the language barrier as far as I can tell. |
| 23:32 | <zewt> | massive amounts of useless feedback about mistranslations |
| 23:43 | <Hixie> | abarth: could you chat with Nasko and decide if Chrome wants or does not want cross-origin seamless iframes? |
| 23:50 | <jamesr> | Hixie, woah |
| 23:52 | <Hixie> | woah? |
| 23:54 | <annevk> | zewt: I think there would be some benefits to not having this huge Western bias, but it's hard to proof. Fortunately to some extent things are being translated (e.g. by myakura) and bits of feedback do come through. |
| 23:55 | <annevk> | Hixie: cross-origin <iframe seamless> without events is still a useful feature I think |
| 23:55 | <annevk> | Hixie: I thought it was pretty clear that introducing new synchronous cross-origin object access was a no-go |
| 23:56 | <Hixie> | i don't have this topic paged in right now |
| 23:56 | <Hixie> | so i've no idea what you're saying. :-) |
| 23:57 | <annevk> | Hixie: maybe buy some more RAM at Fry's? |
| 23:57 | <Hixie> | they don't sell ram compatible with my motherboard :-( |
| 23:57 | <annevk> | man, sad times |