| 00:54 | <briankardell> | Hixie: are you saying that when video was introduced that search engines couldn't see the fallback content? |
| 01:14 | <GPHemsley> | It's amazing how many sites are completely broken in Firefox 3.6 nowadays. |
| 01:15 | <GPHemsley> | (Many of them are completely blank because the old parser thinks the whole page is a comment.) |
| 02:15 | <Hixie> | briankardell: no, i'm saying that by and large authors don't bother to use the fallback feature of <video> |
| 05:37 | <MikeSmith> | heycam: congrats on style scoped going out in Nightly |
| 05:37 | <heycam> | MikeSmith, thanks! |
| 07:12 | <hsivonen> | GPHemsley: I expect the Web to become incompatible with Firefox 3.6 even faster now that Firefox 3.6 has (finally) dropped off http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser_version_partially_combined-ww-daily-20130115-20130115-bar |
| 07:12 | <hsivonen> | IE6 too! |
| 07:13 | <hsivonen> | of course, the number of items on that chart is arbitrary, but I still expect it to matter to people’s perception when stuff falls out of view |
| 07:15 | <hsivonen> | (aside: it’s sad that they bundle all Android stock browser versions together when they are at least as different as [and actually more different than] the Safari versions that are listed as separate) |
| 07:15 | <hsivonen> | (bundling Opera Mobile and Opera Mini into one number is worse, of course) |
| 07:15 | <hsivonen> | (and separating Safari on iPhone and iPod Touch. seriously, why would you do that?) |
| 07:17 | <tantek> | separate iPhone and iPod Touch? Why not separate iPhone, iPhone 2, iPhone 3, iPhone 3G, iPhone3GS, iPhone 4, iPhone 4S, iPhone 5, iPod Touch, iPod 4 Touch, iPod 5 Touch? |
| 07:19 | <hsivonen> | in general, it seems that when it comes to mobile, they throw out everything that’s technically interesting and lists brands instead |
| 07:22 | <hsivonen> | aargh. Acid2 requires nearest neighbor image scaling? sadness. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=830731#c12 |
| 08:42 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: any chance of moving http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/ to http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml ? |
| 08:43 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: and upgrading the mention of HTML5 to CR? |
| 08:45 | <Ms2ger> | Anyone ever heard of <table cols>? |
| 08:45 | <hsivonen> | at least the namespace URL of SVG doesn’t redirect to another URL |
| 08:48 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: yes chance |
| 08:49 | <MikeSmith> | we should |
| 08:49 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: great |
| 08:49 | <SimonSapin> | annevk (if you read logs), re http://dump.testsuite.org/encoding/single-byte-test.html , you might not need PHP or .htaccess if you use xhr.overrideMimeType() |
| 08:50 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: being able to do ctrl-l, ctrl-c and pasting into code would be most helpful |
| 08:50 | <hsivonen> | (yes, I still search for “XHTML namespace” on the Web when writing code) |
| 08:51 | <hsivonen> | (on Mac, I had a system-level macro for that, but on Linux I don’t) |
| 08:51 | <hsivonen> | (I had a thing hooked into the a11y APIs on Mac so that I could type a few letters and it expanded to the XHTML namespace URL) |
| 09:19 | <darobin> | Ms2ger, jgraham: we just had our first pull request from a total third party :) https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/pull/18 |
| 09:38 | <hsivonen> | \o |
| 09:38 | <hsivonen> | oops |
| 09:50 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, next you'll have me believe github actually was a good idea... |
| 09:54 | <hsivonen> | has Chrome removed its character encoding override menu? or am I just failing to locate the menu? |
| 09:54 | <hasather> | hsivonen: Tools > Encoding |
| 09:56 | <hsivonen> | hasather: I don’t see an Encoding submenu there |
| 09:56 | <smaug____> | I have it |
| 09:57 | <smaug____> | v24 |
| 09:57 | <hsivonen> | I tried Chrome 25 and Chromium 23 |
| 09:57 | <hsivonen> | both on Linux |
| 09:57 | <hasather> | hsivonen: I have it in 23 and 26 on Linux |
| 09:57 | <smaug____> | I tried Chrome, not Chromium |
| 09:58 | <hasather> | I tried both |
| 09:59 | <Ms2ger> | Still these, Chrome 25 dev on Linux64 |
| 10:00 | <hsivonen> | are you running with Unity global menu or without? |
| 10:00 | <hasather> | hsivonen: without |
| 10:00 | <hsivonen> | I see the Encoding submenu in the View menu on Mac |
| 10:00 | <hsivonen> | no Tools menu on Mac |
| 10:01 | <hasather> | hsivonen: I use the menu to the right of the address bar |
| 10:01 | <Ms2ger> | GPHemsley, what's Firefox 3.6? :) |
| 10:02 | <hsivonen> | hasather: ooh. *that* Tools |
| 10:02 | <hsivonen> | hasather: thanks |
| 10:02 | <hsivonen> | I have another different Tools menu in the Unity global menubar |
| 10:02 | <hsivonen> | kudos to Google for burying this UI |
| 10:03 | <hasather> | hsivonen: Ah, didn't think of that, I'm not touching Unity :) |
| 10:03 | <hsivonen> | Firefox with the Firefox button enabled buries it in an illogical place |
| 10:03 | <hsivonen> | (Under a Web Developer menu) |
| 10:04 | <smaug____> | well, that is pretty similar to chrome's tools |
| 10:04 | <hsivonen> | (Web developer had better declare their encoding instead of using the menu!) |
| 10:04 | <hsivonen> | *developers |
| 10:04 | <smaug____> | true |
| 10:04 | <hsivonen> | the reason the menu exists is for *users* to deal with developers |
| 10:05 | <smaug____> | obviously no one has thought about the menu entry because no one ever uses it |
| 10:05 | <hsivonen> | right. |
| 10:05 | <hsivonen> | I want to add some telemetry so that we could get data for killing the menu |
| 10:06 | <hsivonen> | (now that I’ve spent time making the menu be less bad) |
| 10:13 | <smaug____> | hsivonen: problem is that it can be very useful for someone |
| 10:13 | <smaug____> | yet most of the users don't even know it is there |
| 10:16 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: well, at this point it's just one submission, but with luck we can get that grow |
| 10:17 | <darobin> | richt: just the man I was looking for! is there an Opera build with the Discovery API in it? |
| 10:18 | <darobin> | I'm looking through labs but the site is somewhat broken |
| 10:18 | <richt> | yep there is. you want the link? |
| 10:19 | <richt> | darobin, I sent you it on a private channel. |
| 10:20 | <darobin> | richt: thanks man! |
| 10:21 | <darobin> | ah, the site seems to work again, too — cool |
| 10:33 | <jgraham> | darobin: Nice :) |
| 10:34 | <Ms2ger> | Hi jgraham |
| 10:34 | <Ms2ger> | Do you want to do me a little favour? :) |
| 10:35 | <Ms2ger> | Apparently Presto does something with <ul align=center>, which it shouldn't |
| 10:35 | <Ms2ger> | Want to file a bug for me? :) |
| 10:35 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: do you have a recommended hotel to stay at near the Mozilla office in MV? |
| 10:36 | <Ms2ger> | Not personally, but I can ask around |
| 10:36 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: it's not a big deal, I can just pick something not too far from the offices |
| 10:37 | darobin | hates the valley |
| 10:37 | <Ms2ger> | holiday inn express, I'm told |
| 10:37 | <Ms2ger> | I haven't been to California this century, myself |
| 10:38 | <Ms2ger> | Apparently on walking distance |
| 10:38 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, ^ |
| 10:39 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: excellent, thanks! |
| 10:39 | <smaug____> | yeah, 15mins walk or something |
| 10:39 | <Ms2ger> | Np |
| 10:39 | <darobin> | anything that involves not having to drive sounds like heaven |
| 10:49 | <smaug____> | darobin: oh, is that hotel closed |
| 10:49 | <smaug____> | google maps at least says so |
| 10:49 | <smaug____> | closed or moved |
| 10:49 | <darobin> | smaug____: ah, damn, I'll check that when I book (which won't be this second) |
| 10:51 | <smaug____> | Hotel Avante is a bit farther away, 25mins walk |
| 10:55 | <darobin> | smaug____: thanks, I'll check that out if the other one has indeed vanished |
| 11:35 | <MikeSmith> | darobin: plh will have a car when he's there I'm pretty sure |
| 11:35 | <MikeSmith> | can ride with him |
| 11:36 | <darobin> | MikeSmith: ah, good point |
| 11:40 | <hsivonen> | darobin: at this time of year, you’d need heating in Hotel Avante and the heater is noisy |
| 11:41 | <darobin> | hsivonen: is it noisier than me snoring? |
| 11:41 | <darobin> | if plh has a car, I might just go to whatever hotel he's staying at |
| 11:41 | <hsivonen> | darobin: I haven’t heard you snoring, but probably yes |
| 11:41 | <darobin> | that would be very loud |
| 11:41 | <darobin> | as annevk knows :) |
| 11:42 | <hsivonen> | darobin: the heater has a fan that blows the warm air into the room |
| 11:42 | <darobin> | yeah, I'm familiar with that setup |
| 12:42 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: so moving of http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/ is hindered by the fact that we are still using CVS to maintain the source |
| 12:43 | <MikeSmith> | and there's no way to delete directories in CVS |
| 12:43 | <MikeSmith> | well there is |
| 12:43 | <MikeSmith> | but not from the client side |
| 12:44 | <MikeSmith> | and actually even if I removed that dir on the cvs server I don't think it will get removed on the Web server |
| 12:45 | <MikeSmith> | so.. I'll need to ask the system team for some help with it I guess |
| 12:54 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: ah CVS. the fitting companion to Namespaces. :-( |
| 12:54 | <darobin> | we're removing that page? why not turn it into something more useful? |
| 12:55 | <MikeSmith> | darobin: was just trying to move it to be without the slash |
| 12:55 | <MikeSmith> | i.e., to make the actual Namespace URI |
| 12:56 | <darobin> | it's not as if millions of URLs pointing to it were going to suddenly cry out in terror, and be suddenly silenced |
| 12:56 | <darobin> | oh dear me, that's a bad mistake... |
| 12:56 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: actually it's even better than CVS and Namespaces |
| 12:56 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: because we make heavy use of conneg |
| 12:57 | <MikeSmith> | so it's the best all worlds |
| 12:57 | <darobin> | I wonder if that couldn't save us here |
| 12:58 | <darobin> | well, not conneg specifically |
| 12:58 | <darobin> | but maybe some modrewrite magic would work |
| 12:58 | <MikeSmith> | CVS rubbing elbows with conneg to serve of deferenceable documents for Namespace URIs |
| 12:58 | <darobin> | redirect xhtml/ to xhtml, and ensure that xhtml serves (through internal redirection) whatever else |
| 12:58 | <darobin> | you should throw some PHP in there |
| 12:58 | <MikeSmith> | darobin: I tried a little of that already but don't work |
| 12:58 | <darobin> | damn |
| 12:59 | <MikeSmith> | could be I did it wrong though |
| 13:05 | <Ms2ger> | A bit of CVS, a bit of PHP, a bit of Namespaces and a bit of conneg |
| 13:05 | <Ms2ger> | Sounds like the W3C |
| 13:05 | <Ms2ger> | Either that or the Divine Comedy |
| 13:05 | <MikeSmith> | we aim to please |
| 13:06 | <MikeSmith> | and we don't disappoint |
| 13:06 | <MikeSmith> | as far as providing pure entertainment value for your dollar |
| 13:08 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: how come conneg needs a slash? |
| 13:09 | <MikeSmith> | it doesn't |
| 13:09 | <MikeSmith> | that part is not not currently using conneg |
| 13:10 | <MikeSmith> | but if I were to put a file in there named xhtml.html it would show up as http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml |
| 13:10 | <hsivonen> | I see |
| 13:12 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: it's more of The Good Soldier Schweik than the Divine Comedy |
| 13:14 | Ms2ger | waves at darobin |
| 13:20 | <darobin> | Ms2ger? |
| 13:21 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, nothing, just a PR :) |
| 13:21 | <hsivonen> | so do we still think that letting some ampersands followed by ASCII letters not be errors is a good idea? |
| 13:22 | <Ms2ger> | I don't, if I counted the negatives correctly :) |
| 13:24 | <hsivonen> | I don’t either. So do I r+ a patch to match the spec while waiting for Hixie to change the spec? |
| 13:28 | <Ms2ger> | The validator is more strict than the spec right now? I'd r- |
| 13:30 | <hsivonen> | Ms2ger: both the validator and View Source in Firefox |
| 13:48 | <hsivonen> | stuff I learned today: don't view a patch in gmail and save as. Use the download link in the Gmail UI instead. |
| 13:49 | <hsivonen> | save as makes the patch fail to apply |
| 15:45 | <Ms2ger> | darobin: I'm told: '"holiday inn express Mountain view" is now called "Hotel Strata"' |
| 15:52 | <zewt> | hsivonen: is it expanding tabs or something? |
| 15:52 | <Ms2ger> | zewt, introducing CRs, possibly |
| 15:52 | <zewt> | (lately i've stopped using hard tabs in code completely; call them a long failed experiment) |
| 15:52 | <zewt> | (also it's easier to convince people to not use tabs than to fix broken ts=4 defaults in their editors) |
| 16:07 | <hsivonen> | zewt: I did not diagnose |
| 16:09 | Ms2ger | looks for an Opera person |
| 16:11 | <hasather> | Ms2ger: can I help? |
| 16:12 | <Ms2ger> | hasather, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=831232#c2 ; consider yourself informed :) |
| 16:13 | <hasather> | Ms2ger: alright :) |
| 16:31 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 16:35 | <nimbu> | hey dglazkov you should do some PR with @stshank |
| 16:35 | <nimbu> | w.r.t web components |
| 16:39 | dglazkov | does PR |
| 16:39 | <dglazkov> | how do I do PR, btw? |
| 16:39 | <dglazkov> | and who is @stshank |
| 16:41 | <nimbu> | dglazkov: he is a tech journalist afaik |
| 16:41 | <nimbu> | @stshank on twitter |
| 16:41 | <nimbu> | dglazkov: you do PR by being your smooth suave self! |
| 16:41 | nimbu | may not know how to spell suave |
| 16:41 | <dglazkov> | yay shampoo! |
| 16:42 | <nimbu> | dglazkov: https://twitter.com/stshank/status/291511013612867586 |
| 16:42 | <nimbu> | ahahah |
| 16:44 | <dglazkov> | twittered |
| 16:52 | <nimbu> | very nice dglazkov |
| 17:13 | <annevk> | So soon we can write cursor:progreß? |
| 17:14 | <tantek> | oh no |
| 17:14 | <annevk> | This whole lets use Unicode case folding for language identifiers madness got to stop. |
| 17:16 | <tantek> | yeah |
| 17:23 | <espadrine> | annevk: reading through the URL parsing algorithm, it seems that URLs like "http:news.ycombinator.com" (without the double slash) yield to a bogus state in which we keep adding to the buffer and don't end the algorithm properly (even though there is a parse error). |
| 17:23 | <espadrine> | annevk: Is there any reason a scheme-relative URL must start with //? Browsers seem to accept it when there is no double slash, and I recall that TBL considered it unfortunate since it doesn't serve a purpose. |
| 17:23 | <espadrine> | annevk: Also, what does it mean to have both a parse error and to continue the algorithm? |
| 17:24 | <annevk> | It depends on the base URL what such a URL will do. |
| 17:25 | <annevk> | Parse errors indicate issues with the syntax, but not all such issues result in total failure. |
| 17:25 | <annevk> | Most in fact, do not, and are happily "ignored". |
| 17:26 | <annevk> | espadrine: So in parsing your URL, you hit step 2 in http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#scheme-state |
| 17:27 | <annevk> | espadrine: Then it either goes to relative or authority state or authority first slash state |
| 17:28 | <espadrine> | in this case, it ends up in the "authority state", and "appends c to buffer" until buffer is empty. Should we assume that then, the algorithm stops? What is the behaviour when the pointer goes beyond the end of the buffer? |
| 17:29 | <espadrine> | in any case, I believe it makes the algorithm fail where browsers currently succeed |
| 17:31 | <annevk> | it appends to buffer until you hit step 2 |
| 17:31 | <annevk> | the EOF code point |
| 17:32 | <annevk> | at which point it reprocesses the string |
| 17:34 | <espadrine> | ah, right, my bad. So it does work. |
| 17:36 | <annevk> | Hopefully :-) I very much appreciate you double checking! |
| 17:36 | <espadrine> | :) |
| 18:00 | <volkmar> | Hixie: I think valueAsNumber and valueAsDate need some love |
| 18:00 | <volkmar> | every time I look at them, I feel like some things are missing |
| 18:01 | <Hixie> | send feedback or file a bug, listing use cases :-) |
| 18:01 | <volkmar> | Hixie: just a quick question before doing that |
| 18:02 | <volkmar> | Hixie: on setting valueAsNumber |
| 18:02 | <volkmar> | if the algorithm to convert to a string doesn't work |
| 18:02 | <volkmar> | what should happen? |
| 18:02 | <volkmar> | my code does set the value to the empty string |
| 18:02 | <volkmar> | but I can't find if I decided that or if it is written somewhere |
| 18:04 | <Hixie> | doesn't the spec answer? |
| 18:04 | <Hixie> | (i don't know off hand, would have to just read the spec to answer) |
| 18:05 | <volkmar> | Hixie: no the spec say to run the algorithm and set the value to the returning string |
| 18:06 | <volkmar> | but the algorithm, for time for example, is something like "set a valid time string that represents the input milliseconds..." |
| 18:06 | <volkmar> | there is no error handling |
| 18:07 | <volkmar> | and for time, it's quite easy to imagine a number that isn't working (like anything greater or equal to 24*60*60*1000 or a negative number) |
| 18:12 | <Hixie> | hm, let me see... |
| 18:12 | <Hixie> | i'm confused |
| 18:13 | <Hixie> | why would the algorithm not work? |
| 18:13 | <Hixie> | what value can you set valueAsNumber to that would fail? |
| 18:14 | <volkmar> | Hixie: what .valueAsNumber = -1; should do? |
| 18:14 | <volkmar> | it type='time' |
| 18:15 | <volkmar> | iow, what would .value return after that? |
| 18:16 | <volkmar> | Hixie: actually, the |create a Date object| concepts solve the issue of float numbers |
| 18:16 | <Hixie> | "23:59:59", no? |
| 18:17 | <volkmar> | Hixie: why? |
| 18:18 | <volkmar> | I mean, it's a way of seeing it |
| 18:18 | <Hixie> | valueAsNumber applies, so it doesn't throw InvalidStateError. valueAsDate applies, so you use the first branch. create a Date object with value -1, which is one second before 1970-01-01. Convert that to a string, which returns a valid time string for that time, which is 23:59:59. Set the value to that string. |
| 18:19 | <Hixie> | seems pretty unambiguous in the spec |
| 18:19 | <Hixie> | (s/for that time/for that time in UTC/) |
| 18:20 | <volkmar> | ok, I see |
| 18:20 | <volkmar> | this branch to Date is just odd |
| 19:29 | <Ms2ger> | Quoting Feynman on www-style? Would upvote. |
| 19:31 | <jgraham> | "Let's work in a lap dancing club"? |
| 19:33 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, btw, did you file a bug for <ul align=center> or should I? |
| 19:35 | <jgraham> | I didn't |
| 22:12 | <Hixie> | anyone have test cases for the kind of thing discussed here?: http://www.w3.org/mid/DF0A84C4-AEAB-4716-B23F-FB3BA48BDE3C⊙gc |