| 13:49 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, I'm not an existing contributor? :) |
| 13:49 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: your productivity increased too — I can feel the anger powering your commits :) |
| 13:54 | <MikeSmith> | btw I left http://w3c-test.org/html/ for now because I figured there were existing links to it and such |
| 13:55 | <MikeSmith> | but at some point I guess we need to drop it |
| 13:55 | <MikeSmith> | or set up redirects |
| 13:57 | <jgraham> | redirects++ |
| 13:58 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: Thanks for doing the work btw |
| 13:58 | <jgraham> | I was away when you pinged me about it, so forgot to reply :) |
| 13:59 | <MikeSmith> | no worries |
| 14:03 | <odinho> | darobin: Why "Artur Barstow" but "ext Odin Hørthe Omdal"? :-( |
| 14:04 | <Ms2ger> | The ext is an Art-ism, I think |
| 14:04 | <odinho> | Nokiaism it seems. |
| 14:04 | <odinho> | Ms2ger: But this was from darobin's email... Although I guess the client might've just copied it in. |
| 14:04 | <odinho> | Ms2ger: Or darobin is evil and just ext-ing me. |
| 14:07 | <Ms2ger> | Well, darobin *is* evil, we know that ;) |
| 14:07 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, and we might want a new index.html for http://w3c-test.org/html-testsuite/ |
| 14:08 | Ms2ger | will leave that to odinho and darobin_ |
| 14:08 | <odinho> | Why am I suddenly someone to defer to? I usually do the deferring :P |
| 14:09 | <Ms2ger> | That's why :) |
| 14:09 | <Ms2ger> | So, is krisk going to resubmit the MS tests? |
| 14:10 | <Ms2ger> | I also see Opera's still need to be done... |
| 14:10 | Ms2ger | looks at odinho and jgraham |
| 14:10 | <darobin_> | odinho: huwah? |
| 14:10 | <Ms2ger> | <Ms2ger> Oh, and we might want a new index.html for http://w3c-test.org/html-testsuite/ |
| 14:10 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: I think he's planning to. I think he was saying it was blocked on me getting the mirroring set up |
| 14:10 | <Ms2ger> | Ah, good |
| 14:10 | <Ms2ger> | Do we meet tomorrow? |
| 14:11 | <MikeSmith> | yeah I think so |
| 14:11 | <darobin> | odinho: I didn't do anything with your name or whatnot, whatever weirdness happened is entirely Art's fault |
| 14:11 | <Ms2ger> | Or, well, you; I probably won't make it |
| 14:11 | <MikeSmith> | hmm I guess the HTML index page for the CR branch needs to be replaced or nuked |
| 14:11 | <odinho> | So, the only comments we really have hanging is the naming issue. |
| 14:11 | <Ms2ger> | web-tests? |
| 14:12 | <darobin> | SHIP IT |
| 14:12 | <Ms2ger> | browser-tests? |
| 14:12 | <MikeSmith> | I like that |
| 14:12 | <MikeSmith> | web-tests |
| 14:12 | <MikeSmith> | it's shorter |
| 14:12 | <odinho> | Yeah, I like web-tests too. |
| 14:12 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah, but I don't want semantic-web-tests ;) |
| 14:13 | <MikeSmith> | drive-by-web-tests |
| 14:13 | <jgraham> | "drive-by"-web-tests |
| 14:14 | <odinho> | jgraham or someone proposed webplatform-tests IIRC, -- but web-tests is shorter and works just as well IMHO. |
| 14:14 | <jgraham> | The quotes are to exclude people that can't figure out obscure shell quoting rules |
| 14:14 | <Ms2ger> | Why do you want to exclude me? First git, now this :( |
| 14:14 | <jgraham> | I think I excluded myself first :) |
| 14:17 | <jgraham> | odinho: The only reason I like webplatform-tests is that it ties in with webplatform.org |
| 14:17 | <jgraham> | It would give the impression that the W3C has a strategy |
| 14:17 | <jgraham> | Which might not be true, but we could fake it for them |
| 14:29 | <MikeSmith> | that's the spirit |
| 14:31 | <Ms2ger> | Someone figure out what's the right rendering for http://jsfiddle.net/pGrSN/2/ , please |
| 14:32 | <jgraham> | Philip`: I think he's talking to you :) |
| 14:34 | <Ms2ger> | I've long given up on expecting anything from Philip` |
| 14:55 | <darobin> | jgraham: errr, I'd rather the testing effort weren't conflated with webplatform.org |
| 14:55 | <darobin> | otherwise people might start looking there for docs which we plan to put elsewhere :) |
| 14:56 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: I think the right rendering is "some sort of penis-like shape" |
| 14:56 | <darobin> | you should probably be using assert_looks_like_a_penis() |
| 15:06 | <jgraham> | darobin: I don't think it is similar enough to be confusing |
| 15:06 | <jgraham> | But it creates what you might call a unified brand |
| 15:07 | <jgraham> | If you were the sort of person that worked in marketing |
| 15:07 | <jgraham> | If you *are* the sort of person that works in marketing, I should introduce you to Bill Hicks :) |
| 15:10 | <darobin> | lol |
| 15:10 | <darobin> | jgraham: it's a unified brand between two things that I don't think should be unified |
| 15:10 | <jgraham> | Well |
| 15:10 | <darobin> | I reckon that tobie wanted to just grab a new domain under which to put all the testing stuff |
| 15:11 | <darobin> | I'd defer to him, as my new Testing Overlord |
| 15:11 | <jgraham> | I maybe don't know enough about the webplatform.org stuff |
| 15:11 | <jgraham> | (except that they still seem to have badly imported MSDN docs, which is a bit worrying) |
| 15:11 | <darobin> | heh |
| 15:12 | <jgraham> | But "web platform" is to #whatwg what "HTML5" is to the rest of the world |
| 15:13 | <darobin> | W3C uses OWP with similarly resounding success |
| 15:14 | <darobin> | I do so cherish the irony that the people who complain most about the success of the "HTML5" moniker are from #whatwg though :) |
| 15:14 | jgraham | doesn't complain |
| 15:14 | <darobin> | yeah I simply couldn't give less of a shit |
| 15:14 | <darobin> | if people are using the right tech, they can call it whatever they want |
| 15:14 | <jgraham> | It is, to quote the TV show Green Wing "the unexpectedly bitter taste of victory" |
| 15:15 | <darobin> | lol, indeed :) |
| 15:15 | <zewt> | grr @ setTimeout minimum delays |
| 15:16 | <jgraham> | zewt: Feel free to grrr at all the people that accidentially created 100% CPU usage by abusing it |
| 15:16 | <zewt> | ios safari always has a minimum delay (not just on recursion), which means that when setTimeout(fire click event, 0) within a touchend event, there's a delay between them and a chance for the page to do a style update |
| 15:17 | <annevk> | W3C Member access again |
| 15:17 | <zewt> | jgraham: not relevant (you only need to delay on recursion to stop that, not all the time) |
| 15:17 | <zewt> | (iirc that's also all the spec requires) |
| 15:17 | <jgraham> | zewt: Oh, well that sounds more like grr at iOS Safari bug |
| 15:17 | <annevk> | aka back in the bubble |
| 15:17 | <jgraham> | annevk: So, there's a downside as well? |
| 15:17 | <zewt> | yes, that's what i said :) |
| 15:18 | <zewt> | so my workaround for safari click delays has to fire click at the start of touchend (during the capture phase on window), which is earlier than it should be |
| 15:21 | <zewt> | and that introduces other problems. bleh--what possible reason does apple have for that horrid click delay thing in safari, anyway |
| 15:21 | <zewt> | other than "make web apps look unresponsive so people install ios apps instead" |
| 15:23 | <annevk> | jgraham: from the outside it was easier to see how closed certain things are, such as the TAG |
| 15:34 | <tobie> | annevk: that's kind of weird. The TAG should be super visible. |
| 15:36 | <tobie> | darobin: Testing Overlord seems like exactly the right thing to put on my new business cards. Will that make you all fear me? |
| 15:37 | <darobin> | tobie: we've sometimes tended to want to hide the TAG, actually ;) |
| 15:37 | <darobin> | tobie: yes, sure! |
| 15:37 | darobin | muahaha, and another falls for the "overlord" trick! |
| 15:38 | <darobin> | along with jgraham, my new Coffee Delivery Overlord! |
| 15:39 | <tobie> | titles are only useful if they're inspire fear (lots of it). Seems you're not taking this seriously enough, darobin. |
| 15:42 | <MikeSmith> | darobin: does respec have any provision for adding a "This document is informative only."? Or otherwise any switch for flagging a doc as non-normative? |
| 15:43 | <darobin> | tobie: oh I do |
| 15:43 | <darobin> | my title says "HTML Editor" |
| 15:44 | <darobin> | I would expect the prospect of that being true to scare quite a few people off |
| 15:44 | <darobin> | MikeSmith: no, but Denis has asked me to do that |
| 15:44 | <darobin> | I was planning on doing it as soon as I'm through with email |
| 15:44 | <Ms2ger> | Isn't it more "HTML Copy-Editor"? |
| 15:45 | <tobie> | darobin: you clearly don't get this. Purpose of a scary title is to scare others not yourself. |
| 15:45 | <darobin> | heh |
| 15:49 | <MikeSmith> | my official title speaks intimidation pretty strongly I guess |
| 15:50 | <MikeSmith> | Special Missions Subsection Junior Interim Floor Manager |
| 16:38 | <annevk> | tobie: will try to make it that way I suppose |
| 16:38 | <annevk> | tobie: congrats with the Fellow appointment btw |
| 16:40 | <Ms2ger> | Case sensitivity as the first thing on a Monday morning |
| 16:40 | <tantek> | annevk: https://twitter.com/t/status/298471161090686976 |
| 16:40 | Ms2ger | is glad he doesn't have to go to CSS F2Fs |
| 16:41 | <tantek> | Ms2ger - you're just afraid of outing yourself to more people ;) |
| 16:41 | <Ms2ger> | Pah |
| 16:41 | <Ms2ger> | Should've come to fosdem |
| 16:49 | <annevk> | tantek: sounds like you guys are having a good time :) |
| 16:50 | <tantek> | annevk - I'm smiling, which is good enough for now. :) |
| 16:50 | tantek | is suppressing an impulse to bring up prefixing. |
| 16:50 | <annevk> | I hope John still has the energy to fight the good fight |
| 16:51 | <tantek> | oh he's going strong |
| 16:51 | <annevk> | only with a prefix you'll get Unicode case folding? :p |
| 17:02 | <tantek> | "Who's in favor of a straw poll?" |
| 17:04 | <jgraham> | CSS WG: doing it wrong so you don't have to |
| 17:05 | <jwalden> | heh |
| 17:10 | <Ms2ger> | OH: "That should be clearly specified." |
| 17:11 | <gsnedders> | FAILED (errors=499, failures=234) |
| 17:11 | <gsnedders> | Yay! |
| 17:11 | <gsnedders> | Okay, not quite. :) |
| 17:11 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 17:11 | <gsnedders> | (html5lib, single codebase for Py2/3) |
| 17:11 | <Ms2ger> | It runs?! :) |
| 17:13 | <gsnedders> | And the majority of the tests pass, now. |
| 17:13 | <gsnedders> | (27k tests) |
| 17:19 | <tantek> | (still on case (in)sensitivity) :) |
| 17:22 | <Ms2ger> | tantek, did you guys put a time limit on the discussion or is this just going to go on until lunch? |
| 17:26 | <slightlyoff> | hey annevk |
| 17:26 | <tantek> | good day slightlyoff |
| 17:26 | <slightlyoff> | what's your thinking on having addEventListener() return the EventTarget itself by default? |
| 17:26 | <slightlyoff> | hey tantek |
| 17:27 | <Ms2ger> | So, why do we have HTMLTimeElement.datetime and HTMLModElement.dateTime? |
| 17:27 | <slightlyoff> | annevk: was talking this through with JakeA, and since it returns undefined right now, I don't think it'll break much, if anything |
| 17:27 | <slightlyoff> | I can imagine that someone might be testing it for falsey |
| 17:27 | <slightlyoff> | but I can't think of any other scenario where it'd break things |
| 17:28 | JakeA | waves |
| 17:29 | <tantek> | Ms2ger - we just decided to break and summarily end discussion on that topic! (for today ;) ) |
| 17:29 | <tantek> | .datetime vs. .dateTime. W.T.F. |
| 17:29 | <Ms2ger> | tantek, if you guys are talking about case, maybe throw that in the group :) |
| 17:30 | <tantek> | Ms2ger, can we call .datetime a bug and fix it to .dateTime? |
| 17:30 | <tantek> | since HTMLModElement is likely an older interface than HTMLTimeElement? |
| 17:31 | <Ms2ger> | That would be nice |
| 17:31 | Ms2ger | looks who supports <time> |
| 17:33 | <Ms2ger> | Oho |
| 17:33 | <Ms2ger> | Opera supports time.dateTime |
| 17:34 | <Ms2ger> | Okay, let me declare this a spec bug |
| 17:34 | <Ms2ger> | Hixie, ^ |
| 17:34 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: plus any other microdata impl, at least |
| 17:34 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders, sorry? |
| 17:35 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders, the spec has time.datetime |
| 17:35 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: We impl it for the sake of microdata, basically |
| 17:35 | <Ms2ger> | "An error occured while submitting your comment. Please let ian⊙hc know." |
| 17:35 | <Ms2ger> | Hixie, I let you know ^ |
| 17:36 | <tantek> | lol |
| 17:37 | <Hixie> | weird |
| 17:37 | <Ms2ger> | Ah, here you are |
| 17:38 | <Hixie> | oh, hah |
| 17:38 | <Hixie> | my bad |
| 17:38 | <Hixie> | we changed the milestones... |
| 17:38 | <Hixie> | what's hte default now, Unsorted? |
| 17:38 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah |
| 17:39 | <annevk> | slightlyoff: if we add target.on() or some such I don't really see the point |
| 17:39 | <slightlyoff> | annevk: do we have target.on() in the spec now? |
| 17:39 | <slightlyoff> | also, why not fix the existing one if it's risk-free? |
| 17:39 | <annevk> | slightlyoff: not yet, was discussing the last couple of details |
| 17:39 | <slightlyoff> | I mean, the name and 3rd param are much of the problem |
| 17:40 | <slightlyoff> | so I support .on() |
| 17:40 | <slightlyoff> | (obviously...arv and I added it to the Dart DOM for a reason) |
| 17:40 | <annevk> | slightlyoff: well you also want delegation support and probably not have to use removeEventListener() at all (instead return a function/object to deregister so you don't have to store the callback anywhere) |
| 17:40 | <Hixie> | Ms2ger: ok fixed |
| 17:41 | <Ms2ger> | Hixie, how about the bug I tried to file? :) |
| 17:41 | <annevk> | and if the API becomes that much more convenient and will be used instead, there's not much point in changing how an existing one behaves, even if theoretically risk-free (if it is, people do weird stuff) |
| 17:41 | <Hixie> | Ms2ger: also fixing that |
| 17:41 | <Ms2ger> | Thanks |
| 17:42 | <slightlyoff> | annevk: I see...but adding a return value to the existing API changes none of those goals, right? |
| 17:42 | <slightlyoff> | annevk: or is the idea that you'd like to use that return value to get to that point with addEventListener()? |
| 17:43 | <annevk> | slightlyoff: well changing the existing API if we expect that the existing API will not be used going forward seems like make work |
| 17:43 | <annevk> | I'd rather have developers and QA work on something else :) |
| 17:43 | <arv> | annevk, slightlyoff: even with event delegation there is value in on()... There are lots of cases where you have non DOM event targets |
| 17:43 | <arv> | sorry, non Node event targets |
| 17:44 | <annevk> | Jake had an idea how to make delegation not be bound to anything |
| 17:44 | <annevk> | by making it a callback |
| 17:45 | <slightlyoff> | annevk: so I'm trying to get the Future thing ironed out, and extensibility is key...the latent issue is that when you want to extent (e.g., via an event), you can't use .then() |
| 17:46 | <slightlyoff> | annevk: and you don't really want to break the chain |
| 17:46 | <slightlyoff> | annevk: i.e., you should be able to do f.addEventListener(...).then(...); |
| 17:46 | <slightlyoff> | and this is a non-Node case |
| 17:46 | <slightlyoff> | but it's still important |
| 17:46 | <annevk> | I'm not sure I follow exactly |
| 17:47 | <slightlyoff> | annevk: so there are a set of things you want to allow subclasses to do; e.g., add progress events or upgradeneeded events and the like |
| 17:47 | <slightlyoff> | they aren't completion values |
| 17:47 | <slightlyoff> | i.e., they don't end a chain of Futures |
| 17:47 | <slightlyoff> | they're additional semantics for events that happen before/after/around resolution |
| 17:47 | <annevk> | wouldn't you just use the full API in that case rather than the Future API? |
| 17:47 | <slightlyoff> | no |
| 17:47 | <slightlyoff> | the Future API *is* the full API for a lot of this stuff going forward, I'd hope |
| 17:48 | <slightlyoff> | if we enable this, Future subclasses are how you'd express what, e.g., IDB uses EventTarget for |
| 17:48 | <slightlyoff> | since they're EventTarget instances themselves |
| 17:48 | <slightlyoff> | so the question is, how do we enable chaining in that API, since that's one of the best bits of Future use |
| 17:48 | <slightlyoff> | (and no, I don't think I have to justify wanting this...see all of jQuery) |
| 17:49 | <annevk> | if there's no end of task, how would chaining even make sense? |
| 17:49 | <slightlyoff> | it's chaining calls *on the same Future* |
| 17:49 | <slightlyoff> | it's not vending a new Future from the then() return values of another |
| 17:50 | <annevk> | (at this point I'm rather lost I think, not arguing against it or anything :)) |
| 17:50 | <slightlyoff> | annevk: instead of writing: |
| 17:50 | <slightlyoff> | var f = async(); f.addEventListener("...", ...); f.then(a, r); |
| 17:50 | <slightlyoff> | you'd write: |
| 17:51 | <slightlyoff> | async().addEventListener("...", ...).then(a, r); |
| 17:51 | <slightlyoff> | assuming you return a new future from the then call, you should be able to keep going: |
| 17:51 | <slightlyoff> | async().addEventListener("...", ...).then(a, r).done(...); |
| 17:51 | <annevk> | oh so just chaining |
| 17:51 | <slightlyoff> | yeah |
| 17:52 | <slightlyoff> | that's the only reason I'm asking for returning the EventTarget from the addEventListener() call |
| 17:52 | <slightlyoff> | (or a .on() that does the same) |
| 17:52 | <annevk> | yeah the problem with that is that I'd want to return a function to unregister the event |
| 17:52 | <annevk> | otherwise you'd have to remember the callback |
| 17:52 | <Ms2ger> | Everyone else hates that ;) |
| 17:53 | <annevk> | well or an object |
| 17:53 | <annevk> | whatever |
| 17:53 | <slightlyoff> | annevk: the function object can have a ref to the future? |
| 17:53 | <zewt> | slightlyoff: that's not a pattern that the platform typically bothers with |
| 17:53 | <slightlyoff> | zewt: sorry, that's sort of a busted argument by default |
| 17:53 | <annevk> | yeah, could maybe do on().ref and on().remove() |
| 17:53 | <zewt> | (and honestly it makes for pretty ugly code) |
| 17:53 | <zewt> | slightlyoff: sorry, you'll have to do better than that |
| 17:54 | <annevk> | x.on().ref would have ref point to x or some such |
| 17:54 | Ms2ger | tunes out again |
| 17:54 | <annevk> | dinnertime |
| 17:54 | <slightlyoff> | zewt: afraid I don't. Saying "it should be better" means "it should be different", ipso facto |
| 17:54 | <slightlyoff> | annevk: yeah, heading home too |
| 17:54 | <slightlyoff> | annevk: can live with that |
| 17:54 | <zewt> | you're saying it should be different, it's not "better" |
| 17:54 | <annevk> | i'll be online tomorrow again, we can discuss it some more |
| 17:55 | <slightlyoff> | zewt: I'm saying "better" is always a discussion, but for anything to be better it must be different than the current state |
| 17:55 | <slightlyoff> | zewt: I have no time for software conservatives |
| 17:55 | <slightlyoff> | at least not when it comes to effecting progress |
| 17:55 | <zewt> | i have no time for people with bad attitudes |
| 17:55 | <Hixie> | Ms2ger: fixed |
| 17:55 | <slightlyoff> | great, then I'm done here = ) |
| 17:55 | <Ms2ger> | Hixie, great, thanks |
| 18:06 | <volkmar> | Hixie: we agree that <input type='time' min='00:01' step='86400000'> doesn't have a valid value? |
| 18:06 | <volkmar> | given that we step >= 86400000, the only valid value is 00:00 |
| 18:15 | <Hixie> | volkmar: 00:01 seems like a valid value? |
| 18:15 | <Hixie> | volkmar: (if there's a min, the step counts from the min, iirc) |
| 18:15 | <volkmar> | oh... indeed |
| 18:33 | <GPHemsley> | isn't "datetime" one word in computer speak? |
| 18:33 | <GPHemsley> | (I'm arguing against treating "time" as a separate word for camel-casing) |
| 18:34 | <zewt> | the only place i can think of offhand where it's used (space or not) is python |
| 18:35 | <zewt> | (i use python a lot, so its name feels more natural to me, but it's just one sample, so) |
| 18:36 | <Ms2ger> | Then again, python likes lowercase |
| 18:38 | <zewt> | if they wanted two words they'd have used "date_time", though they do prefer shorter, easier-to-type names |
| 18:38 | <Ms2ger> | startswith and stuff like that |
| 18:39 | <zewt> | (which is more important for a common datetime class in python than it is for a relatively infrequently used string in HTML, of course) |
| 18:53 | <zewt> | ... confused, is flexbox in ios safari or not |
| 18:53 | <zewt> | caniuse claims some version of it is in there, but i don't see any flex- or -webkit-flex- styles |
| 18:56 | <zewt> | "display: -webkit-box", must be a really old version |
| 18:58 | <zewt> | i guess if it's been in since ios 3.2 it must be, heh |
| 19:04 | <kerozene> | is <picture><source ... likely to happen? |
| 19:06 | <Ms2ger> | No |
| 19:06 | <miketaylr> | heh |
| 19:07 | <kerozene> | seriously? why is there so much activism about it then? |
| 19:08 | <kerozene> | sorry, maybe this is all quite explicit in some mailing list thread |
| 19:10 | <marcosc> | kerozene: the main thing is the use cases. Right now, there is a gap. If srcset fills that gap then there will be much rejoicing. |
| 19:13 | <kerozene> | marcosc: thanks. just had a look at it here: http://www.w3.org/community/respimg/2012/05/11/respimg-proposal/ |
| 19:14 | <Hixie> | GPHemsley: "A byte sequence is a sequence of bytes." isn't a particularly helpful definition :-) |
| 19:16 | <jgraham> | zewt: In python per PEP8 the module should have been datetime and the class DateTime. But it predates PEP8 I guess. Or at least predates the stdlib caring about PEP8 |
| 19:16 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Nice progress |
| 19:17 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: While you're around, thoughts on moving to github (for the sake of Travis CI, amongst other things) and splitting the repo up into multiple repos? |
| 19:18 | <jgraham> | I was already considering github because not Google Code |
| 19:19 | <jgraham> | I thought people might be upset about the hg->git transition though |
| 19:19 | <jgraham> | I am happy to split the repos into python/php/ruby/etc. |
| 19:19 | <gsnedders> | Testdata I guess we could keep in hg, given that's what the W3C is using. |
| 19:20 | <jgraham> | They are? |
| 19:20 | <gsnedders> | Well, I mean test.w3.org is |
| 19:20 | <jgraham> | The problem with testdata is |
| 19:20 | <jgraham> | That it really really sounds like a usecase for submodules |
| 19:20 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, it does. |
| 19:20 | <jgraham> | I think going forward we should assume that all important W3C stuff will be in git |
| 19:21 | <gsnedders> | Which is why on the whole git makes more sense. |
| 19:21 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, boo |
| 19:23 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Sucks to be you :p |
| 19:23 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Also goddamnit why does lxml return bytes on Py2? |
| 19:23 | gsnedders | rages |
| 19:23 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: But, seriously, if it would create a problem for Mozilla if we move this stuff we should try to fix that |
| 19:23 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Maybe git subtree can solve all problems |
| 19:24 | <Ms2ger> | It only creates problems for people who don't have a Stockholm Syndrome for git yet :) |
| 19:24 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: git subtree? |
| 19:25 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: You don't have any infrastructure that tries to automatically sync the tests or anything? |
| 19:25 | <Ms2ger> | I've got scripts |
| 19:25 | <Ms2ger> | They're broken for HTML now, I guess |
| 19:25 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: http://apenwarr.ca/log/?m=200904#30 |
| 19:25 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: (now in git mainline) |
| 19:25 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: So I should file them under "need to be fixed anyway"? |
| 19:26 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, hmm, the html5lib tests, you mean |
| 19:26 | Ms2ger | misread that |
| 19:27 | <Ms2ger> | hsivonen might have a script; I don't see one checked in |
| 19:28 | <jgraham> | I will check with hsivonen tomorrow then |
| 19:28 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: ^ |
| 19:29 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I think we should do this, but probably not when you are in the middle of a major refactoring |
| 19:30 | <jgraham> | So let's keep Google Code for now and fix it when you have 499 fewer errors and whatever-it-was fewer fails |
| 19:30 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Agreed. |
| 19:30 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Not sure how to keep over the Py3 history, though |
| 19:33 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Well, you will still have the history, it will just be a bit confusing |
| 19:33 | <jgraham> | I mean |
| 19:34 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I mean when splitting the repo up |
| 19:34 | <jgraham> | Well it depends how you do it |
| 19:34 | <jgraham> | You can pull everything and then rewrite the history to remove all the commits in the non-python directories |
| 19:35 | <jgraham> | and then have a commit where the python3 directory is removed and the python/ directory is stripped |
| 19:35 | <gsnedders> | And then at the end move it? |
| 19:35 | <jgraham> | Exactly |
| 19:35 | <gsnedders> | (Well, it'll be the other way around, python3 will become root) |
| 19:36 | <jgraham> | Well whichever |
| 19:37 | gsnedders | adds more assert isinstace(x, text_type), type(x) to the codebase |
| 19:37 | <gsnedders> | (Just to make sure Py2 keeps unicode everywhere) |
| 19:38 | <Ms2ger> | instace? |
| 19:39 | <gsnedders> | blehblehbleh |
| 19:39 | <jgraham> | Short for "is instant ace!" |
| 19:39 | <jgraham> | gsnedders' new video microblogging service |
| 19:40 | <gsnedders> | I'm surprised you didn't make an emo joke there. |
| 19:41 | <gsnedders> | So parsing now works in the joint codebase, though serializing does not. |
| 19:42 | <Ms2ger> | Oh man, making emo jokes about gsnedders is so 2008 |
| 19:42 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I was thinking about making penis jokes at twitter's expense |
| 19:42 | <gsnedders> | jgraham was doing it a few months ago, at least internally. |
| 19:43 | <jgraham> | But emo would have been better |
| 19:43 | <jgraham> | Could probably have gone with emo penis jokes |
| 19:43 | <jgraham> | ;) |
| 19:44 | <gsnedders> | Parser works fine, now, BTW. |
| 19:44 | <gsnedders> | Treewalking/serializing to go. |
| 19:46 | <jgraham> | Nice :) |
| 19:47 | <gsnedders> | Also, back to Njáls saga. |
| 19:50 | <kerozene> | is he burnt yet? |
| 19:51 | <gsnedders> | Well, I'm not reading it in order... |
| 19:51 | <gsnedders> | So... sort of? |
| 19:51 | <kerozene> | how come you're reading it? |
| 19:52 | <gsnedders> | kerozene: University course on Old Norse. Linguistics, influence on English, is the fundemental reason. |
| 19:52 | <kerozene> | I have a copy but I couldn't get anywhere with it |
| 19:52 | <kerozene> | figures |
| 19:52 | <gsnedders> | I have two, one in Old Norse and one in English. :) |
| 19:52 | <kerozene> | yikes |
| 19:53 | <gsnedders> | Speaking of which, time to confuse my brain some more and make it even more a mix of Swedish, Norwegian, and Old Norse, unable to remember what word is what language :) |
| 19:53 | <gsnedders> | (Damn it Opera!) |
| 19:54 | marcosc | shows gsnedders his knife... "from old norse, now give me your money!" :) |
| 19:55 | <gsnedders> | marcosc: I refuse to pay ransom. You'll just come back and demand more, till the country in bankcrupt. |
| 19:56 | marcosc | sticks gsnedders with the pointy end |
| 19:56 | <marcosc> | wasn't gonna get my money anyway |
| 19:56 | <kerozene> | it's a jungle in here |
| 19:59 | <gsnedders> | (The largest payment from England was around 30k kg (i.e., 30Mg) of silver) |
| 20:00 | <gsnedders> | (The largest amount of surviving English coinage from the period is in Sweden.) |
| 20:05 | <Ms2ger> | Excellent |
| 20:05 | <Ms2ger> | My hg-based script actually works perfectly on the new git repo |
| 20:09 | <GPHemsley> | Hixie: But is it an unhelpful definition? ;) |
| 20:32 | <gsnedders> | treewalkers/lxmletree.py needs totally rewriting, basically |
| 20:32 | <zewt> | i don't think i'll ever stop typing "var foo(bar) { }" in JS |
| 20:33 | <Hixie> | is anne around? |
| 20:34 | <zewt> | i really wish foo.dataset.x = null deleted the attribute instead of setting it to "null" |
| 20:34 | <Hixie> | just do delete foo.dataset.x; |
| 20:34 | <gsnedders> | Don't delete properties. That's evil. |
| 20:34 | <zewt> | it's really annoying to have to say if(value) foo.dataset.x = value; else delete foo.dataset.x; every time |
| 20:34 | <Ms2ger> | It's not in this case |
| 20:35 | <zewt> | (or rather, if(value != null)) |
| 20:35 | <Hixie> | zewt: ah, yeah, if you don't know ahead of time if you're adding or removing, that's sad |
| 20:35 | <zewt> | "sad"? |
| 20:35 | <Hixie> | sad that the API doesn't work for you |
| 20:36 | <zewt> | i end up writing a helper function, which is okay but unpretty |
| 20:36 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 20:36 | <zewt> | set_value(foo.dataset, "bar", value) |
| 20:36 | <Hixie> | what is setting "value" in this case? |
| 20:36 | <Hixie> | like, how do you end up with "Null"? |
| 20:37 | <zewt> | well a common case is eg. function is_logged_in() { return true/false; } document.body.dataset.loggedIn = is_logged_in();, and I end up with "false" where i'd rather the property not be set at all |
| 20:37 | <Hixie> | ah |
| 20:37 | <Hixie> | interesting |
| 20:37 | <Hixie> | so it's not just null |
| 20:37 | <Hixie> | hmmm |
| 20:38 | <zewt> | bool is probably the more common case actually yeah |
| 20:38 | <Hixie> | yeah i don't have a good answer for you there other than a helpfer function |
| 20:39 | <zewt> | i'll resist the temptation to try to hack DOMStringMap's prototype, heh |
| 20:39 | <zewt> | (in the list of Things That Will Bite Me In The Ass Two Years From Now) |
| 20:40 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: See commit just pushed. |
| 20:44 | <zewt> | it'd be nice if a.x = undefined was the same as delete a.x |
| 20:44 | <zewt> | sort of silly to allow defining a value to undefined, heh |
| 20:45 | <gsnedders> | It's sort of silly to allow undefined to be redefined. |
| 20:46 | <Ms2ger> | "return node.tail and (node, "tail") or node.getnext()" doesn't work anymore? |
| 20:47 | <gsnedders> | It does, just tidying up a bit |
| 20:47 | <gsnedders> | Given we don't care about < 2.6 |
| 20:47 | <Ms2ger> | Makes sense |
| 20:56 | <zewt> | box-sizing buggy on ios safari? :| |
| 20:56 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Also: finish unifying codebases, decide whether we drop soup support for the next release, make sure tests pass (add the AAA limits, currently), move to git, then release? |
| 20:57 | <zewt> | (for border-box) |
| 21:02 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders, and take fantasai's patches? ;) |
| 21:03 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: As I said to her ages ago, I don't want to take them as is. |
| 21:03 | <gsnedders> | The functionality will get added. I wonder where my mostly-finished impl was... |
| 21:03 | <Ms2ger> | wfm :) |
| 21:05 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Sounds like a plan |
| 21:07 | <zewt> | some weird interaction between border-box and display: table, i guess |
| 21:09 | <muyyatin> | I have a number of Canvas spec questions (all based on different behavior between browsers). Should I ask here or send an email somewhere? |
| 21:35 | <Hixie> | muyyatin: different browser behaviour is a bug, but feel free to ask here |
| 21:37 | <muyyatin> | Hixie: First of all, I'm working off http://phet.colorado.edu/files/phet-scene/tests/browsers/canvas-test-suite.html rendered in different browsers |
| 21:39 | <muyyatin> | Hixie: There are a number of differences in rendering quadratic / cubic bezier curves, and some occur only with specific line caps |
| 21:40 | <muyyatin> | Hixie: For example, is there anywhere it is noted what the "inflated" path is defined as for #trace-a-path? For cubics with a cusp, does it inflate around the cusp? |
| 21:42 | <muyyatin> | Hixie: Additionally, does the Canvas spec allow for differences rendering quadratic / cubic bezier curves that occur due to imprecision of approximation offset curves? (top-left-most example shows it most clearly) |
| 22:18 | <zewt> | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12855123 ... seriously? |
| 22:18 | <zewt> | ios silently discarding timers from within touch events during scrolling |
| 22:34 | <zewt> | i'm pretty convinced that mobile safari hates me personally |
| 22:34 | <zewt> | window.scrollY will go beyond the bottom, if you're rubber-band-scrolled past the end, but it won't go negative if you do it at the top |
| 22:34 | <Hixie> | muyyatin: sorry, was afk |
| 22:35 | <Hixie> | muyyatin: not sure i know the answers to your questions unfortunately |
| 22:45 | <muyyatin> | Hixie: No worries! I'm not sure if this behavior is spelled out anywhere, and browser vendors may not be able to easily change implementations since a lot of this is determined by underlying graphics engines |
| 23:13 | <myndzi> | "If node is the target node, terminate in a match state." - what is the 'target node' in this case? |
| 23:18 | <JonathanNeal> | What constitutes an element getting a HTMLXConstructor (where X is Audio, Div, Span, Li, etc.)? |
| 23:43 | <Hixie> | JonathanNeal: you mean, what does it mean for there to be one? |
| 23:44 | <JonathanNeal> | Yes, is there a criteria? |
| 23:44 | <Hixie> | oh you mean what constitues a reason for an element getting a constructor? |
| 23:44 | <Hixie> | hm |
| 23:44 | <Hixie> | dunno |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | for audio, it was added before it was an element |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | then when we retrofitted it into being an element, we made it constructable so the API wouldn't change much |
| 23:45 | <JonathanNeal> | Okay. |
| 23:46 | <Hixie> | the only other two are Image and Option and similarly predate there actually being elements at all |
| 23:46 | <Hixie> | so they were also retrofits, effectively |
| 23:46 | <myndzi> | hixie, your nick seems familiar but i can't place it |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | myndzi: i've used it for many years... |
| 23:53 | <myndzi> | i imagine so, but if you don't recognize me then i must be thinking of someone else ;) |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | oh i dunno about htat |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | i have the worst memory for people |
| 23:54 | <myndzi> | well i've been on irc a long time haha, seen lots of nicks that i never talked to i'm sure :P |
| 23:54 | <myndzi> | wtf does it mean to "pretend p has been seen and reprocess" |
| 23:55 | <myndzi> | been seen where? how would i reprocess with the goal of finding an open p tag without actually having one? |
| 23:56 | <Hixie> | where does it say that? |
| 23:57 | <myndzi> | parsing rules under syntax.html |
| 23:57 | <myndzi> | 'an end tag whose tag name is "p"' |
| 23:57 | <Hixie> | the string "pretend p has been seen and reprocess" isn't in the spec as far as i can tell |
| 23:57 | <myndzi> | "act as if a start tag with the tag name "p" had been seen, then reprocess the current token" |
| 23:58 | <myndzi> | after transcribing these rules i do see a common pattern, which i'm grateful for :P |
| 23:58 | <Hixie> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#act-as-if-a-token-had-been-seen |
| 23:59 | <myndzi> | ah. so "insert a p token" basically :P |
| 23:59 | <Hixie> | not necessarily |