| 00:36 | <Hixie> | i guess i shouldn't support fractional exponents in this sorting thing |
| 00:36 | <Hixie> | as in 4e0.5 |
| 00:37 | <Hixie> | since that's pretty weird |
| 00:38 | <Hixie> | 4e1.5 => 4, e, 1.5 |
| 00:38 | <TabAtkins> | Yes. CSS and JS don't support fractional exponents. |
| 01:39 | <Hixie> | hm, i want 4.4e2e2 => 4.4, e, 2, e, 2 |
| 01:39 | <Hixie> | but that means keeping state between stages of tokenisation |
| 01:39 | <Hixie> | sigh |
| 01:41 | <zewt> | does it know that s1e2 < s2e2 |
| 01:41 | <Hixie> | "it"? |
| 01:41 | <zewt> | whatever sorting monster you're contriving :P |
| 01:41 | <Hixie> | it is my goal that s1e2 < s2e2, yes, because they tokeniser to ["s", 1, "e", 2] |
| 01:42 | <zewt> | ("it" may be a future-tense thing) |
| 01:42 | <Hixie> | tokenise, even |
| 01:42 | <zewt> | tokenize :) |
| 01:42 | <othermaciej> | roc: I expect the vast majority of people hacking on WebKit would not want it to be the only browser engine in the world, but on the other hand most of us probably don’t care to make public statements on wacky things people say about WebKit on the internet |
| 01:42 | <zewt> | just checking that it wouldn't treat season/episode notation as "s", 1e2 |
| 01:43 | <othermaciej> | also I doubt opinions will have much effect on how many viable browser engines actually exist |
| 01:43 | <roc> | I think the number of people telling Web developers to not bother testing on anything other than Webkit has some effect |
| 01:43 | <Hixie> | true dat |
| 01:44 | <Hixie> | and true dat also |
| 01:44 | <Hixie> | though i imagine the market share of non-webkit mobile browsers (or lack thereof) has more of an impact on what people test, than what people say people should test. |
| 01:44 | <roc> | sure |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | zewt: "s 1e2" => "s, 100" though |
| 01:46 | <zewt> | personally i think supporting sorting exponential notations is sort of weird and unneeded and i'd much rather have some form of natural sorting (but we've had that conversation) |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | stuart (of sortable.js) apparently gets feedback asking for exponent support. |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | so we're supporting it. |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | (my opinion is the same as yours though) |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | (seems unintuitive that this would actually occur.) |
| 01:48 | <zewt> | (i'd question the frequency of those requests vs. the complexity, but I assume you've already done that) |
| 01:49 | <zewt> | are they actually requests for sorting exponents mid-string, and not just as isolated strings? |
| 01:50 | <zewt> | (may not matter in the design you're going for, just trying to get a picture) |
| 01:50 | <Hixie> | the complexity isn't much |
| 01:50 | <zewt> | i think you and i are going to run the internet out of parentheses |
| 01:50 | <Hixie> | i expect the requests are for isolated |
| 01:52 | <zewt> | maybe i'm getting towards contrived, but what if you're sorting "%04x", say a table of Unicode codepoints in hex, where "2e10" is a hex value, not an exponent |
| 01:54 | <Hixie> | zewt: come again? |
| 01:54 | <Hixie> | oh like hte string "2e10" meaning "2e 10"? |
| 01:54 | <zewt> | yeah |
| 01:54 | <Hixie> | dunno, are there pages on the web that do this? |
| 01:54 | <zewt> | vs. 0x2e10/U+2E10 |
| 01:55 | <zewt> | don't know |
| 01:56 | <zewt> | suppose if it became an issue, you could set a separate explicit sort key like "U+2E10" to prevent it from being sorted as a number |
| 01:56 | <Hixie> | well at a minimum right now i'm expecting 20a1 to sort as being after 3aa1, which is something to consider |
| 01:57 | <zewt> | or a sort key of the same number in decimal |
| 02:09 | <roc> | sigh. I just reflexively went to test something in Opera. |
| 02:09 | <zewt> | i suggest pointer-events |
| 02:19 | <zewt> | holy shit |
| 02:19 | <zewt> | paypal won't let you copy and paste a password in when changing password |
| 02:19 | <zewt> | dear browsers: sites should not have the ability to do this |
| 02:20 | <zewt> | for sites like paypal i use random passwords from pwgen that i always copy and paste because they're pretty much untypable, unimpressed by paypal preventing security |
| 02:27 | <Hixie> | zewt: disable js for the site |
| 02:28 | <zewt> | quicker to edit the inputs in chrome inspector |
| 02:44 | <zewt> | (of course, the site also prevented the context menu from opening--another thing browsers should never allow)_ |
| 02:46 | <zewt> | (granted I don't know the general case for that, at least for things like games, but it's really abusive most of the time) |
| 03:58 | <MikeSmith> | didn't know Rust backend uses LLVM |
| 03:59 | <doublec> | it used to be a custom generator way back when, but is LLVM now. |
| 04:00 | <MikeSmith> | doublec: ok |
| 04:00 | <MikeSmith> | roc: thanks for http://people.mozilla.com/~roc/Samsung/MozillaRustAndServo.pdf |
| 04:00 | <MikeSmith> | nice read |
| 04:01 | <MikeSmith> | other interesting stuff as well in http://people.mozilla.com/~roc/Samsung |
| 04:01 | <MikeSmith> | dunno why that directory is named Samsung but I can guess |
| 04:02 | <roc> | hehe |
| 04:02 | <roc> | http://robert.ocallahan.org/2012/04/korea.html |
| 04:04 | <MikeSmith> | ah cool |
| 04:04 | <MikeSmith> | I remember reading that now at the time |
| 04:14 | <MikeSmith> | oh boy the online kindle reader, https://read.amazon.com/, it uses a separate canvas element for each word on the page |
| 04:16 | <MikeSmith> | https://gist.github.com/sideshowbarker/4958566 |
| 04:22 | <zewt> | sounds like a jr. high school kid's idea of DRM |
| 04:23 | <MikeSmith> | zewt: yeah |
| 04:24 | <zewt> | meanwhile forcing browsers to optimize for a completely imbecilic usage pattern |
| 04:24 | <MikeSmith> | I'd like the meet the people who dreamed this up |
| 04:24 | <MikeSmith> | man everything possible about the ebook/epub user experience is FUBAR |
| 04:26 | <MikeSmith> | copy/paste of a sentence or paragraph from a book is a sane world something you'd really want to help your users do |
| 04:26 | <zewt> | sounds like management going "we want web delivery, how can we secure it" and developers knowing it's impossible go "well uh ... how about (something ridiculous)" and management going "that sounds impenetrable!" |
| 04:26 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 04:28 | <MikeSmith> | I bet somebody has already written a greasemonkey script for thi |
| 04:29 | <zewt> | mental image of book publishers going "we want to make sure nobody can copy our books" and printing houses offering to print books with barbed wire down the spine and the blade of a knife pointing out of the page |
| 04:29 | <MikeSmith> | if not I should write one myself and host on w3.org and announce it on the w3c home page |
| 04:29 | <MikeSmith> | zewt: heh yeah that's the UX equivalent here |
| 04:30 | <zewt> | greasemonkey is pretty much my instinctive response to idiot webpages |
| 04:31 | <MikeSmith> | I really should do this. Amazon is not even a W3C member |
| 04:32 | <zewt> | sites being dicks do give me the urge to thwart them |
| 04:32 | <zewt> | not that that's limited to websites |
| 04:32 | <zewt> | i've actually seen captchas that were separate letters in different images positioned randomly with css |
| 04:32 | <MikeSmith> | yeah that's the reaction that I think most people have |
| 04:33 | <zewt> | captchas are a pretty hilarious category of really bad homebrew stuff |
| 04:33 | <MikeSmith> | yep another massive eff-the-user fail |
| 04:33 | <zewt> | static black and white text on top of CRAAAAZY random color noise--clearly filtering out colorful content from monochrome content is something only a human can reasonably do |
| 04:34 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 04:34 | <MikeSmith> | ah yeah I see what you mean |
| 04:34 | <zewt> | https://zewt.org/~glenn/recaptcha%20WHAT.png |
| 04:34 | <zewt> | vvvvvv |
| 04:38 | <MikeSmith> | zewt: what's this image telling me? |
| 04:38 | <zewt> | that's a recaptcha, heh |
| 04:38 | <zewt> | assuming you know how recaptcha works |
| 04:43 | <MikeSmith> | yeah OK |
| 04:48 | <zewt> | yeah seriously, OK |
| 04:50 | <MikeSmith> | zewt: your sorted-by-awesomeness list is interesting but I can't tell if it's in descending order or ascending |
| 04:52 | <zewt> | that's movies reviewed by capalert.com, movies he hated the most at the top |
| 04:52 | <zewt> | one of those "if this guy really hates a movie, it must be worth something" sites |
| 04:53 | <MikeSmith> | roc, doublec : "Eich: We hired somebody a while ago. He met a guy who was working for us and they're both OCaml hackers, and he was doing his own OCaml hacking on the side. And he was thinking about problems that we were seeing in my static analysis. he knows not just the source language, but the runtime, and he's hacked native methods and he was writing an OCaml operating system. we needed somebody different, and this guy was different." |
| 04:53 | <MikeSmith> | zewt: :) |
| 04:53 | <MikeSmith> | zewt: I like Mary Poppins man. You not giving it enough credit. |
| 04:53 | <zewt> | sounds like a reason to never ever hire someone |
| 04:53 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 04:54 | <MikeSmith> | roc, doublec : that's talking about Graydon Hoare? |
| 04:54 | <roc> | perhaps. I don't know. |
| 04:55 | <zewt> | making ice cream out of bacon and macaroni salad is different, but nevertheless probably an unwise hire |
| 04:57 | <roc> | Graydon is in fact a great guy and a great hire, at least for what he's currently working on. |
| 04:57 | <MikeSmith> | roc: yeah seems like he must be |
| 04:57 | <zewt> | possible, so long as it has nothing to do with "(word) operating system" |
| 04:58 | <roc> | Mozilla wouldn't build an operating system. That's crazy. |
| 04:58 | <roc> | oh wait |
| 04:59 | <MikeSmith> | haha |
| 04:59 | <zewt> | bacon macaroni ice cream OS |
| 05:01 | <MikeSmith> | btw I think it's a misnomer to call b2g and ChromeOS operating systems. I think there more runtime environments or desktop environments. |
| 05:01 | <MikeSmith> | like Qt+KDE |
| 05:01 | <zewt> | where? there |
| 05:03 | <roc> | maybe, but you take away the Linux desktop environment you can still have a kind of usable system |
| 05:04 | <roc> | for B2G and chromeOS, not so much. |
| 05:04 | <zewt> | i can't think of anything of the form "letter 2 letter" as anything but a horrible 90s buzzword |
| 05:05 | <zewt> | granted, "2 noun 1 noun" might be seen as significantly worse |
| 05:12 | <MikeSmith> | well it's called Firefox OS now isn't it? |
| 05:13 | <roc> | yes but it's still pronounced B2G |
| 05:15 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 05:19 | <zewt> | the g is silent |
| 05:29 | <MikeSmith> | so another result of Amazon's every-word-in-a-canvas-element thing is that when you try to read a book using voiceover, the voice pauses unnaturally after every single word |
| 05:37 | <zewt> | if it includes a machine-parsable equivalent of each word ... what possible point does it have |
| 06:48 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: I think the spec should explicitly make browsers a conformance class for the outline algorithm |
| 06:48 | <MikeSmith> | and should define some means for exposing the outline to Web content |
| 06:48 | <MikeSmith> | so that Web developers could actually do something with it |
| 06:49 | <MikeSmith> | document.createOutline(Element element) |
| 06:50 | <MikeSmith> | so you could do document.createOutline(document.documentElement) if you wanted the outline for the whole document |
| 06:51 | <MikeSmith> | or whatever other element if you wanted to create an outline for some part of the document |
| 06:53 | <MikeSmith> | a use case for a partial outline would be if you have a long document (like the HTML spec) as a single page and, e.g., you want to generate TOCs for each section, with its subsections in the TOC |
| 06:55 | <MikeSmith> | maybe along with it have a no-arg document.createDocumentOutline() as a convenience |
| 07:24 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: the algorithm is too prohibitively expensive to expose, imho |
| 07:24 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: (to expose in an environment where you can change the entire outline every 10ms) |
| 07:31 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: is it worth me taking it to the list, to get some implementor feedback? |
| 07:32 | <MikeSmith> | or you think it's too much of a non-starter as far as the performance issue not being practically addressable in implementations? |
| 07:34 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: but wait wouldn't the behavior just be that the outline from document.createOutline is not live |
| 07:34 | <MikeSmith> | just a static documentFragment (or whatever kind of tree of nodes) |
| 07:36 | <MikeSmith> | and if an application is changing the DOM in way that would cause the (abstract) outline(s) to change, then it's just up to them to regenerate the outline(s) if they want |
| 07:37 | <MikeSmith> | anyway for a lot of document cases the outline is not actually going to be changing so it's not a problem anyway |
| 07:38 | <MikeSmith> | for typical documents as opposed to dynamic applications |
| 07:39 | <MikeSmith> | and anyway I would wonder how much a dynamically changing Web application would want to be using headings much |
| 07:39 | <MikeSmith> | or how many developers of such applications would want to include some kind of generated outline in them |
| 09:51 | <Stevef_> | mikesmith: how does the outline algorithm handle hidden sections? |
| 09:53 | <wilhelm> | Opera buys Skyfire. Heh. |
| 09:54 | <MikeSmith> | wilhelm: for 155 million USD |
| 09:55 | <MikeSmith> | of which I guess /only/ 50 million is cash, and the rest is some kind of bonus thing |
| 09:55 | <wilhelm> | Equal to three years of profits. |
| 09:55 | <wilhelm> | OK, between 1 and 3 years of profits. |
| 09:57 | <MikeSmith> | so why did they buy it? I was chatting with somebody earlier today who pointed out that Opera has some devs that are well-know for doing some insanely great stuff around compression |
| 09:58 | <MikeSmith> | and it sure would have cost less than 50 million to build whatever they bought in-house instead |
| 10:00 | <wilhelm> | Synergy, I'm sure! |
| 10:01 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 10:02 | <MikeSmith> | maybe the existing partner deals that Skyfire has |
| 10:02 | <MikeSmith> | but still I can't see that being worth that much |
| 10:02 | <MikeSmith> | not like I have any insight into it though |
| 10:03 | <Philip`> | ""Opera and Skyfire are a natural fit," said Lars Boilesen, CEO, Opera Software. "Both companies have evolved far beyond their browser roots. [...]" - death is a necessary part of natural selection so I suppose it does count as evolution, but I thought you usually wanted your competitors to die, not yourself |
| 10:05 | <wilhelm> | (c: |
| 10:22 | <JonathanNeal> | How does the whatwg plan to address the russian meteor? I don't think current spec accounts for it. Typical. |
| 10:27 | <karlcow> | garbage collector? |
| 10:34 | <JonathanNeal> | Excellent. You thought of everything. </blink> |
| 11:28 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: oops, replied on that www-tag thread |
| 11:47 | karlcow | polyburns annevk in hell |
| 11:47 | <annevk> | Is that different from normal burning? |
| 11:48 | <karlcow> | or is it burns annevk in polyhell |
| 11:48 | <karlcow> | I wonder which serializations |
| 11:48 | <karlcow> | :p |
| 11:49 | <annevk> | By replying to that thread I pretty sure I burned myself, although thus far nobody has bitten on me calling it a waste of time in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2013Feb/0055.html |
| 11:49 | <annevk> | s/I pretty/I'm pretty/ |
| 11:49 | <jgraham> | "i'm pretty" - annevk |
| 11:50 | <jgraham> | Just need an occasion to quote you on that ;) |
| 11:50 | <annevk> | Could be a nice caption for those nice photos of my floating around on the web... |
| 12:02 | <karlcow> | heh |
| 12:06 | <karlcow> | annevk is trying to compete with "Right Said Fred" |
| 12:06 | <annevk> | man, s/my/me/ |
| 12:07 | <annevk> | oh this is great, because I'm in Switzerland Google gives me German search results |
| 12:46 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: the TAG rules are that you now own that thread |
| 12:46 | <MikeSmith> | or it now owns you |
| 12:46 | <MikeSmith> | in for a penny, in for pound |
| 12:48 | Ms2ger | steals MikeSmith's pennies |
| 12:51 | MikeSmith | sees the space where all his missing pennies were, and repurposes the space to stash some more dope |
| 12:51 | Ms2ger | steals that too |
| 13:02 | karlcow | sees the sky fire. |
| 13:12 | <darobin> | karlcow? |
| 13:13 | <karlcow> | darobin: that's the theme of the day it seems. Russia Sky fire, 500 injured. Opera xx fired Skyfire 57 hired. :) |
| 13:14 | <darobin> | ooooh |
| 13:15 | <darobin> | the Russia pics are scary |
| 13:30 | <MikeSmith> | I like the back story of some of the Russia videos, the fact that they're from dashboard-mounted cameras, and the fact that the reason so many people have dashboard-mounted cameras is that it's so common for people to jump in front of cars to fake accidents and scam money |
| 13:33 | <wilhelm> | That explains why there is enough material for those "driving in Russia" videos. Yikes. |
| 13:34 | <MikeSmith> | so when I asked Hixie about the idea of exposing an outline mechanism to Web content, he said, "the algorithm is too prohibitively expensive to expose, imho. (to expose in an environment where you can change the entire outline every 10ms)" |
| 13:35 | <MikeSmith> | which I can understand, that would be the case if we were talking about it as a property of the document object, document.outline, that needs to get updated |
| 13:37 | <MikeSmith> | but what I was asking about isn't that but instead just something like "var outline = document.createDocumentOutline()" |
| 13:37 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: what would it return? |
| 13:38 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: a tree of sorts? |
| 13:38 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 13:38 | <MikeSmith> | could just be a DocumentFragment couldn't it? |
| 13:39 | <MikeSmith> | hmm no |
| 13:39 | <MikeSmith> | just an Outline object that is a tree of Section objects that are just nodes |
| 13:41 | <MikeSmith> | anyway unless I'm misunderstanding something, doing it as var outline = document.createDocumentOutline() is not going to cost anything unless/until you actually call it |
| 13:43 | <MikeSmith> | and it only costs once when you call it because it just builds a static outline |
| 13:48 | <annevk> | Just noticed Brendan does not spell WHATWG correctly either |
| 13:48 | <annevk> | howcome uses WHAT WG, Brendan WHAT-WG |
| 13:49 | <karlcow> | what:wg |
| 13:49 | <karlcow> | the namespaced version |
| 13:51 | karlcow | is trying to visualize what document.createDocumentOutline() would return. I would love a gist. |
| 13:59 | <darobin> | createDocumentOutline would be really nice |
| 14:04 | <annevk> | Doesn't seem like people are clamoring for that |
| 14:05 | <Ms2ger> | darobin isn't a person? |
| 14:06 | <karlcow> | he is a dahu |
| 14:13 | <annevk> | Reading http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JanMar/thread.html#msg408 is somewhat painful unless you skip certain emails |
| 14:19 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: people weren't clamoring for a lot of things that made it into the spec and that have actually been implemented and shipped |
| 14:19 | <annevk> | Have they seen adoption? |
| 14:20 | <MikeSmith> | sure |
| 14:20 | <MikeSmith> | sometimes people use stuff just because it's there |
| 14:20 | <MikeSmith> | example: the semantic/structural elements |
| 14:20 | <annevk> | You're not making a convincing case :-) |
| 14:21 | <MikeSmith> | anyway in this case we already have the outline algorithm in the spec |
| 14:22 | <MikeSmith> | I'm to really proposing a new feature |
| 14:22 | <MikeSmith> | I'm just proposing that what's already in the spec should actually be made usable |
| 14:23 | <MikeSmith> | right now the spec for the outline algorithm pretty much has zero actual conformance requirements |
| 14:24 | <MikeSmith> | so I can claim that dbaron's old desk is a conforming implementation of the spec for the outline algorithm |
| 14:25 | <Ms2ger> | How about his new desk? |
| 14:26 | <Stevef> | some developers are deeply invested in in the outline algorithm even though it doesn't currently do anything |
| 14:26 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: I haven't seen it so I can't vouch for it |
| 14:27 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef: yeah that part baffles me a bit |
| 14:27 | <Stevef> | and many not ever do much if the brwosers don't implement |
| 14:27 | <MikeSmith> | but I guess it does show that there's some interest, if not clamoring |
| 14:28 | <Stevef> | MikeSmith: its semantics its the beauty of the theoretical construction |
| 14:28 | <MikeSmith> | somebody would only find it beautiful if they hadn't written code to implement it :) |
| 14:29 | <jgraham> | Hmm? It is used every time the spec is generated |
| 14:29 | <jgraham> | That seems like "doing something" |
| 14:30 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: you saying that anolis implements it? |
| 14:30 | <Stevef> | jgraham: yeah thats true, now if that something was replicated in many places then... |
| 14:30 | <jgraham> | Yes |
| 14:30 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 14:30 | <marcosc> | yeah, anolis and respec too |
| 14:30 | <marcosc> | I think |
| 14:30 | <MikeSmith> | well I agree that's doing something |
| 14:31 | <marcosc> | you need to ask darobin |
| 14:31 | <MikeSmith> | marcosc: pretty sure that respec does not |
| 14:31 | <Ms2ger> | Anolis does? |
| 14:31 | <MikeSmith> | respec expect you to mark up the source with <section>s, and if you don't you won't get any TOC |
| 14:31 | <marcosc> | I thought gsnedders said it did at some point |
| 14:32 | <Ms2ger> | It has something... |
| 14:32 | <darobin> | ReSpec doesn't use that, it uses good markup practices instead |
| 14:32 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham just said anolis does |
| 14:32 | <MikeSmith> | darobin: :) |
| 14:32 | <darobin> | I'm serious actually :) |
| 14:32 | <MikeSmith> | well |
| 14:32 | <darobin> | the outline algorithm is great because it saves horrible content |
| 14:33 | <marcosc> | heh, fu and your sections, darobin |
| 14:33 | <Ms2ger> | Looks like it does |
| 14:33 | <darobin> | but if you can get nice content to start with it's so much better |
| 14:33 | <Ms2ger> | I see a lot of "outlinee" in the code, at least |
| 14:33 | <gsnedders> | Do what? |
| 14:33 | <gsnedders> | The outlining algorithm? Yeah. |
| 14:34 | <MikeSmith> | well, would that all tools we work on could be for a use case where you can actually enforce good markup practices |
| 14:34 | <marcosc> | oh yeah! :) |
| 14:34 | <marcosc> | Anolis, the conformance queen! Take that, Respec! |
| 14:35 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie changed that word outlinee so all you alls code is now internally out of conformance with Hixie's terminology |
| 14:35 | <MikeSmith> | it's not "outline target" I think |
| 14:35 | <Ms2ger> | It is, I think |
| 14:36 | <jgraham> | heh |
| 14:36 | <darobin> | hey, at least ReSpec uses HTML |
| 14:36 | <jgraham> | I think I eventually complained enough that outlinee looked like a typo |
| 14:36 | <MikeSmith> | I tried to get him to throw some "palpable" in there but he said he thought he had already taken the "palpable" joke too far |
| 14:36 | <darobin> | it's not HTML 3.2 + some server-side language like Anolis |
| 14:36 | <marcosc> | heh |
| 14:37 | <MikeSmith> | darobin: right now somebody here is making a meme for "at least ReSpec uses HTML" |
| 14:37 | <darobin> | lol |
| 14:38 | <MikeSmith> | Anolis has a Web service you can use and there's the word "Web" there so that makes it good |
| 14:38 | <Ms2ger> | I'll rename it XAnolis, maybe then darobin will like it |
| 14:39 | <jgraham> | SaaS is the future |
| 14:39 | <darobin> | MikeSmith: oh, a web service you say? I had no idea it also used SOAP |
| 14:39 | <jgraham> | My plan is to get people hooked and then start charing $5/spec generation or ad adverts to the generated spec |
| 14:39 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: heh, I bet Anolis uses XPath :) |
| 14:39 | <jgraham> | *add |
| 14:40 | <jgraham> | Although right now |
| 14:40 | <Stevef> | I am still unclear how much the outline helps when realw rold web pages get thrown at it some the example here http://www.html5accessibility.com/HTML5data/article/index.html |
| 14:40 | <jgraham> | That business plan would make me < $5 / day |
| 14:40 | <Stevef> | even real world |
| 14:40 | <MikeSmith> | darobin: I said "Web" with the word "service" arranged after it. If I meant SOAP I would have said "clusterfuck" |
| 14:41 | <Stevef> | the outlines for complex pages seem like barf |
| 14:41 | <darobin> | MikeSmith: well you *were* talk about Anolis, so I assumed... |
| 14:41 | <darobin> | Stevef: yay, another feature! |
| 14:41 | <MikeSmith> | hah |
| 14:42 | <Stevef> | darobin: what feature? a barfinator? |
| 14:42 | <MikeSmith> | Stevef: nothing can help most of those pages, nor the people who made them. They are beyond redemption. |
| 14:43 | <darobin> | a barfinator for crappy HTML strikes me as a great addition to our utility belts |
| 14:43 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: sanity check, sicking is wrong in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16491#c10 right? |
| 14:43 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: capture includes target afaict |
| 14:43 | <Stevef> | MikeSmith: weel those are the edge cutters who work on multi million dollar sites... |
| 14:44 | <Ms2ger> | I, er, dunno? |
| 14:44 | <Ms2ger> | smaug____? |
| 14:44 | <smaug____> | Ms2ger: ? |
| 14:44 | <Stevef> | the HTML5 standard bearers leading us into a new golden age of markup |
| 14:44 | <smaug____> | yes, capture includes target |
| 14:44 | <jgraham> | Argh, loop detected |
| 14:45 | <annevk> | someone should slap sicking |
| 14:45 | <zewt> | (confirm) |
| 14:45 | <smaug____> | per D2E capture didn't include target |
| 14:45 | <Ms2ger> | Poor sicking |
| 14:45 | <zewt> | (... confirming capture includes target, not slapping sicking) |
| 14:46 | <smaug____> | but it was too late to fix implementations already 2006 |
| 14:46 | <smaug____> | ...so spec was changed |
| 14:47 | <MikeSmith> | darobin: actually I sense that somebody elsee here is making a meme, "You designed the WebIDL otput in Respec / Your argument is invalid." |
| 14:48 | <marcosc> | where is sicking? |
| 14:48 | <sbp> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Which_group_has_authority_in_the_event_of_a_dispute.3F has a broken link: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/introduction.html#how-do-the-whatwg-and-w3c-specifications-differ? doesn't exist anymore. I didn't find a reasonable updated destination yet |
| 14:49 | <sbp> | (only result for "differ" in the whole ToC is "4.10.1.7 The difference between the field type, the autofill field name, and the input modality") |
| 14:51 | <annevk> | smaug____: interesting anecdote |
| 14:51 | <smaug____> | annevk: are you said... I am old :) |
| 14:53 | <smaug____> | s/are/as/ |
| 14:53 | <smaug____> | huh |
| 14:53 | <smaug____> | don't try to make food and write at the same time |
| 15:29 | <sangwhan> | German search results reminds me of this crazy Coca-cola ad |
| 15:41 | <volkmar> | marcosc: you pinged me on #sysapps, does your ping still apply? |
| 15:51 | <darobin> | volkmar: thanks for answering my Persona question btw |
| 15:52 | <volkmar> | darobin: yw |
| 16:02 | <MikeSmith> | "the latency of sending all that HTML templating with every request is still higher than caching it in the browser as XSLT, and transforming XML on the fly" |
| 16:03 | <MikeSmith> | the architect speaks |
| 16:03 | <MikeSmith> | all of our problems are now solved friends |
| 16:03 | <MikeSmith> | time to close up shop |
| 16:05 | <MikeSmith> | annevk, slightlyoff, marcosc : your mission is to ensure that www-tag keeps continuing to provide that kind of entertainment value^W^Wwisdom |
| 16:05 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: on it |
| 16:05 | <marcosc> | MikeSmith: did I miss something? |
| 16:07 | <marcosc> | oh, I see. I don't read the tag emails that contain the the word XML |
| 16:07 | <marcosc> | I leave those to annevk |
| 16:07 | <jgraham> | marcosc: Pretty sure that's cheating |
| 16:07 | <marcosc> | it is :) |
| 16:07 | <wilhelm> | I can tolerate XML, but XSLT is clearly the spawn of the devil. |
| 16:08 | <MikeSmith> | memebot, { text: "pwned by the polyglot thread", image: annevk } |
| 16:08 | <marcosc> | heh |
| 16:08 | <marcosc> | someone should so create that |
| 16:10 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: you should post that one you emailed me :) |
| 16:11 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: pressure sure you mean <meme><?xml-stylesheet type="text/xsl" href="http://example.org/meme/mem2html.xslt"?><text>pwned by the polyglot thread</text><image href="annevk"/></meme> |
| 16:11 | <jgraham> | *pretty |
| 16:12 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: Really? If you say so I will |
| 16:12 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: do it :) |
| 16:12 | <annevk> | Have to keep w3cmemes alive |
| 16:12 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: yeah sorry I forgot to hit myself on the head with the XML brick first |
| 16:13 | MikeSmith | looks for his XML brick |
| 16:13 | <MikeSmith> | fuck, it seems Ms2ger stole my stole my XML brick along with my pennies and my dope |
| 16:15 | <MikeSmith> | I bet right now right not Ms2ger is writing some code to do caching in the browser as XSLT, transform XML on the flay |
| 16:15 | <MikeSmith> | while he smokes my dope |
| 16:16 | <jgraham> | "on the flay"? I guess self-flagellation is about right |
| 16:26 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger can't spell words right while he's clambaking |
| 16:28 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders, hmm, looks like html5lib's python 3 installed code uses setuptools, but that isn't available for 3 |
| 16:30 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: I haven't tried installing it :P |
| 16:31 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders, apparently :) |
| 16:31 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: Patches welcome :) |
| 16:31 | <Ms2ger> | Bah :) |
| 16:35 | <sangwhan> | All browsers should implement JIT XSLT |
| 16:35 | <sangwhan> | ...and native SCXML support. |
| 16:38 | <MikeSmith> | I'll EMMA that |
| 16:41 | smaug____ | designed a variant of SCXML 9 years ago... using XForms datamodels and EMMA and what not... all the super cool technologies :p |
| 16:43 | <sangwhan> | smaug____: How many pounds of cocaine did you need? |
| 16:44 | <MikeSmith> | smaug____: smart man you've done your penance ahead of time and now can sin freely |
| 16:45 | <sangwhan> | I'm still thinking of a nice way to say "No" to SCXML |
| 16:45 | <smaug____> | Certain Finnish mobile phone company didn't give any cocaine as bonus |
| 16:46 | <sangwhan> | The Finnish mobile phone company that shall remain anonymous |
| 18:54 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: i guess if we had a method that was allowed to take non-zero time and returned a static copy that might be ok |
| 18:55 | <MikeSmith> | well man it don't gonna be non-zero |
| 18:55 | <MikeSmith> | can't tell if you're trollin |
| 18:55 | <Hixie> | not trolling |
| 18:55 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 18:55 | <Hixie> | how long does it take to work out the outline for the html spec? |
| 18:56 | <Hixie> | i am just worried people are gonna be doing this stuff in a tight loop or something |
| 18:56 | <MikeSmith> | milliseconds |
| 18:56 | <MikeSmith> | i think |
| 18:56 | <Hixie> | that's what i mean |
| 18:56 | <Hixie> | it's slow |
| 18:57 | <MikeSmith> | so we make the show opt in |
| 18:57 | <Hixie> | The kind of thing I'm worried about is things like a library checking this on startup |
| 18:57 | <Philip`> | Need an async createDocumentOutlinePromise, clearly |
| 18:58 | <Hixie> | Philip`: can't be async, it depends on the dom tree |
| 18:58 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: like people did with webgl construction |
| 18:58 | <Ms2ger> | createVerySlowDocumentISaidSlowOutline() |
| 18:58 | <Philip`> | It'd take an instantaneous copy-on-write snapshot of the current DOM tree, and then compute the outline asynchronously |
| 18:58 | <Hixie> | Philip`: for a 5mb file, that can be a lot of ram or a lot of time |
| 18:59 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: or people running it in a tight loop, like they did with getElementsByTagName |
| 18:59 | <Philip`> | Copy-on-write doesn't take any memory or time (unless you write) |
| 18:59 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: When JS can already take arbitrary time, why's this an issue? |
| 18:59 | gsnedders | is confused |
| 19:00 | <Hixie> | Philip`: well it takes at least a bit to track that you need to copy on write, but sure |
| 19:00 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: because UA vendors will be tempted to "optimise" the algorithm |
| 19:00 | <Ms2ger> | Hixie, tests ;) |
| 19:00 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Won't that happen whatever you spec? |
| 19:01 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Also just make sure people impl it correctly. :P |
| 19:01 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: given that you already didn't implement it correctly... :-P |
| 19:01 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Bugs happen, and nobody wrote TCs for me! |
| 19:01 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Obviously I need a QA department :) |
| 19:02 | <Philip`> | If you're just worried about someone benchmarking the function, design it so it computes the outline synchronously (which makes the implementation easy) and then asynchronously sleeps for 500+Math.random()*100 msecs before returning the outline to a callback |
| 19:02 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: anyway i'm just saying that there are costs and it's just not a trivial matter; i'm not saying we shouldn't expose it |
| 19:02 | <Hixie> | Philip`: hah |
| 19:03 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: (btw, there are "tests" in the spec now, if you do want some) |
| 19:03 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: (they cover the interesting cases i'm aware of) |
| 19:04 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: (It's abandonware from my POV now, pretty much) |
| 19:04 | <Hixie> | k |
| 19:14 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: I can write up a message to the list asking for implementor assessments, if you want |
| 19:15 | <Hixie> | if there's author demand or implementation demand, that certainly makes the decisions easier |
| 19:15 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 19:17 | <MikeSmith> | so I'll write up a message to try to present the case, we see if we get any bites |
| 19:48 | <GPHemsley> | Hixie: Any chance of <time datetime="2001" approximate>c. 2001</time>? |
| 19:48 | <GPHemsley> | (that's: LOWERCASE C, PERIOD, SPACE) |
| 19:49 | <Hixie> | what's the use case? |
| 19:49 | <GPHemsley> | approximate dates |
| 19:49 | <Hixie> | i figured that, thanks :-P. i mean, what software is going to process it and what will it do with it |
| 19:50 | <GPHemsley> | well, say I have a collection of photos, and I list the date that each one was taken |
| 19:50 | <GPHemsley> | but for a particular photo, I don't know the exact date |
| 19:50 | <GPHemsley> | I only know enough to say "circa 2001" |
| 19:51 | <GPHemsley> | and of course I mark up all these photo's dates in <time> |
| 19:51 | <GPHemsley> | so now what do I do? |
| 19:52 | <GPHemsley> | so the machine aspect would be the collection of metadata |
| 19:53 | <GPHemsley> | s/collection/act of collecting/ |
| 20:02 | <Hixie> | GPHemsley: that doesn't answer my question: what software is going to process it and what will it do with it? |
| 20:05 | <Hixie> | GPHemsley: that doesn't answer my question: what software is going to process it and what will it do with it? |
| 20:06 | <GPHemsley> | Hixie: What do they do with <time> now? |
| 20:06 | <Hixie> | the current use cases are about future css automatic restyling, and microdata processing. |
| 20:07 | <Hixie> | afk for a bit, will resume after lunch |
| 20:07 | <GPHemsley> | Hixie: What kind of microdata processing? (I'm not too familiar with it.) |
| 20:07 | <tantek> | <time> is currently used for microformats quite a bit |
| 20:07 | <tantek> | hCalendar in particular |
| 20:08 | <GPHemsley> | Hixie: But I imagine this could fall into both of those usecases. |
| 20:09 | <tantek> | GPHemsley - there wasn't enough use-cases / support for circa year to get it into the <time> element definition |
| 20:09 | <GPHemsley> | tantek: Oh, it's been suggested before? |
| 20:09 | <tantek> | GPHemsley - yes, see and please (I encourage you!) add to: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time#Fuzzy_dates |
| 20:10 | GPHemsley | wonders what "flourished 1580" means |
| 20:10 | <tantek> | (actually that whole wiki page is good background reading on what features we've added to the time element and why) |
| 20:10 | <GPHemsley> | oh, like, it built up to then? |
| 20:11 | <GPHemsley> | that's kinda iffy |
| 20:11 | <tantek> | GPHemsley - I think it's missing the end date, e.g. see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basawan |
| 20:11 | <GPHemsley> | ah |
| 20:11 | <GPHemsley> | not sure that's a good usecase for approximate dates |
| 20:11 | <GPHemsley> | that's just "we only know about him for this period) |
| 20:12 | <GPHemsley> | s/)/"/ |
| 20:12 | <tantek> | GPHemsley - I agree - I think the "Fuzzy Dates" section needs some work |
| 20:13 | <GPHemsley> | yeah, I was considering that myself |
| 20:13 | <tantek> | to split uncertain dates (circa) from uncertain date ranges (flourished) |
| 20:13 | <tantek> | I just added the citation for "flourished" (since you asked what it meant :) ) |
| 20:14 | <tantek> | BTW - note the comments section on Fuzzy Dates |
| 20:16 | <GPHemsley> | will do |
| 20:16 | <tantek> | any questions - I'm happy to help with documenting further potential <time> improvements |
| 20:17 | <GPHemsley> | ick, this whole page could do with a cleanup |
| 20:17 | <tantek> | It's been an important area of improvement in HTML in particular for microformats use cases that have needed it for years. |
| 20:17 | GPHemsley | tries to put blinders on |
| 20:18 | <tantek> | Indeed I tried to cluster similar sets of problems/proposals, and then sort by rough utility / use-cases. |
| 20:18 | <tantek> | It might be worth taking the time to move all the accepted proposals to an Accepted section at the bottom. |
| 20:19 | <tantek> | but for a while, it wasn't clear what was going forward and what wasn't so we tried to keep the page structure fairly stable so folks could easily re-find things when they came back to it. |
| 20:19 | <GPHemsley> | For future reference: 1st-level headers (1 =) are reserved for page titles |
| 20:19 | <tantek> | citation? |
| 20:20 | <tantek> | (not that I disagree, just would be handy to know the reasoning) |
| 20:20 | <tantek> | and is that for MediaWiki or Wikipedia only? |
| 20:20 | <GPHemsley> | well, look at the styling of the page header ;) |
| 20:20 | <GPHemsley> | it may be inspired by Wikipedia, but I prefer to carry it through to all MediaWiki implementations |
| 20:21 | <GPHemsley> | given how it is marked up and/or styled |
| 20:21 | <tantek> | I've used later 1st-level headers when it's too much of a pain (and looks bad stylistically) to increase heading levels when moving from one section to another |
| 20:21 | <GPHemsley> | that's not exactly the greatest justification ;) |
| 20:21 | GPHemsley | wonders how you code in Python |
| 20:22 | <tantek> | I don't code in Python :) |
| 20:22 | <GPHemsley> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:MOSHEAD#Section_headings |
| 20:22 | <GPHemsley> | "(The highest heading level technically possible is =Title=; but do not use it in articles, because it is reserved for the automatically generated top-level heading at the top of the page containing the title of the whole article.)" |
| 20:22 | <GPHemsley> | so that's what Wikipedia says |
| 20:24 | <GPHemsley> | given the resulting markup generated, there may also be accessibility concerns |
| 20:24 | <GPHemsley> | (because they are literally translated to <h1>) |
| 20:24 | <Ms2ger> | Heh: http://24.media.tumblr.com/9c78b3d6ddce1292a889a977667f10cb/tumblr_mi9sc0oIXi1rvsbh9o1_500.jpg |
| 20:24 | <tantek> | so I think I used the level 1 headings because I wanted to a way to group the feature proposals without losing the stylistic heading underline for each specific proposal |
| 20:24 | <tantek> | the next level of heading disappears too easily among the prose |
| 20:25 | <tantek> | especially in a long page |
| 20:26 | <tantek> | nah, multiple h1s doesn't hurt accessibility as long as the first h1 is done correctly |
| 20:26 | <tantek> | same thing for WP too - the argument against using =heading= doesn't hold up because the first <h1> is just fine (and works with the page title as well) |
| 20:26 | <GPHemsley> | tantek: What does it mean to be "done correctly"? All the subsequent <h1>s would be at the same level as the first one. |
| 20:27 | <GPHemsley> | But anyway, with this many sections and this length of a page, it could probably do with being split into multiple pages |
| 20:28 | <tantek> | yeah that's a good point. I'll move the accepted proposals to a new page to start with |
| 20:28 | <tantek> | also the intro is out-dated now that a lot of the proposals have made it into specs |
| 20:28 | <tantek> | yeah I need to give this page some time |
| 20:28 | <tantek> | ;) |
| 20:29 | <GPHemsley> | yeah, I was gonna ask, is this information still current? |
| 20:30 | <tantek> | most of it is yes. I added various status lines accordingly. |
| 20:30 | <tantek> | just fixing the intro now |
| 20:31 | <GPHemsley> | Hixie: I see annevk recently had to delete a spam page created by a user ;) |
| 20:32 | <GPHemsley> | (and from a sleeper user, no less) |
| 20:33 | <tantek> | how old a user? perhaps before sign-ups were gated? |
| 20:33 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders, do you know if there is a particular reason [DATE] uses UTC? |
| 20:34 | <GPHemsley> | tantek: Yeah, it was during that brief period after the upgrade that user registrations were open. |
| 20:34 | <GPHemsley> | tantek: But Hixie recently asked me to remove a restriction that would have prevented this. ;) |
| 20:34 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: No. But I expect there was one. |
| 20:34 | <Ms2ger> | Alright :) |
| 20:35 | <Ms2ger> | It's not even five years ago you wrote that code, though... |
| 20:35 | <gsnedders> | Four years ago is long enough :) |
| 20:36 | <GPHemsley> | four years is two lifetimes! |
| 20:37 | <tantek> | GPHemsley, ok cleanup started (first iteration). |
| 20:37 | <GPHemsley> | k |
| 20:37 | <tantek> | off to lunch now, will do more when I get back. |
| 20:37 | <tantek> | and I'll try to reduce the extra h1s ;) |
| 20:37 | <GPHemsley> | I see just removing the accepted ones will cut the page length in half |
| 20:37 | <GPHemsley> | but yeah, that'd be much appreciated :) |
| 20:41 | <GPHemsley> | tantek, Hixie: But anyway, I think just have a binary way to say that a date is approximate would be enough to cover a lot of the usecases, even with ranges (durations?). |
| 20:42 | <jgraham> | "14:37 < GPHemsley> four years is two lifetimes!" - gsnedders is a bit older than that now |
| 20:42 | <GPHemsley> | Hixie: Is it possible to have an attribute that can be both binary (present/absent) and have a value? |
| 20:43 | <GPHemsley> | jgraham: Not by much! ;) |
| 20:43 | <jgraham> | GPHemsley: That is possible of course. But it doesn't sound like a good idea :) |
| 20:43 | <GPHemsley> | jgraham: Why not? |
| 20:44 | <jgraham> | Because most attributes don't work like that |
| 20:44 | <GPHemsley> | these are attributes 2.0! |
| 20:44 | <GPHemsley> | (or is it attributes5?) |
| 20:47 | <gsnedders> | GPHemsley: 10x seems like a fair bit :P |
| 20:48 | <GPHemsley> | gsnedders: Oh, but the first few don't count. They're throwaways. |
| 20:49 | <GPHemsley> | tantek: How about <time datetime="2001" approximate within="3y">? @approximate is boolean, @within is duration. |
| 20:49 | <GPHemsley> | tantek: (Perhaps @approximate is implied by the presence of @within?) |
| 20:50 | <GPHemsley> | tantek: Oh, no, wait. Durations are calculated in no more than hours? |
| 20:51 | <GPHemsley> | tantek: Or weeks. |
| 21:04 | <GPHemsley> | tantek: The full period syntax of ISO8601 would allow years and months, though. |
| 21:07 | <GPHemsley> | I suppose we could have separate comparable and incomparable duration types. |
| 21:07 | <GPHemsley> | Or, rather, have differing degrees of comparability |
| 21:08 | <GPHemsley> | Like, one type is only comparable down to 1 month; the other would be as it is now, from weeks to seconds. |
| 21:08 | GPHemsley | shrugs |
| 21:09 | <GPHemsley> | Ah, and then granularity would be tied to how specific @datetime is. |
| 21:09 | <GPHemsley> | So, you can't have datetime="2001" and then have within="1s" |
| 21:10 | <GPHemsley> | <time datetime="2001" within="3y"> |
| 21:10 | <GPHemsley> | <time datetime="2001-03" within="2M"> |
| 21:11 | <GPHemsley> | <time datetime="2001-03-07" within="5d"> |
| 21:12 | GPHemsley | wanders off |
| 21:37 | <jgraham> | odinho: I see Mozilla gave you a monkey |
| 21:37 | <jgraham> | And still no hippo for annevk |
| 22:10 | <GPHemsley> | tantek: Another possibility is to add to the syntax of @datetime: 2001?3y, 2001-03?3M, 2001-03-07?5d |
| 22:11 | <GPHemsley> | tantek: That way, you can show "circa" by having a lone question mark, and no older parser would mistake it for an exact date (since they'd treat it as invalid). |
| 22:15 | <Hixie> | back |
| 22:21 | <GPHemsley> | front |
| 22:24 | <Hixie> | who was the account of the guy who created the page created by? |
| 22:24 | <Hixie> | i'm curious to see how he asked for the account |
| 22:24 | <Hixie> | (re wiki spam) |
| 22:24 | <Hixie> | 23 October 2012 |
| 22:24 | <GPHemsley> | he was a self-registration |
| 22:24 | <GPHemsley> | back during that small period where it was open |
| 22:24 | <Hixie> | aah |
| 22:24 | <Hixie> | ok then i'm still fine with our policy of letting new users create pages |
| 22:24 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 22:24 | <Hixie> | thanks for you and anne keeping eyes peeled |
| 22:24 | <GPHemsley> | who knows how many sleeper agents there are! |
| 22:25 | <GPHemsley> | ;) |
| 22:25 | <Hixie> | well, one per three months is fine |
| 22:25 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 22:25 | <Hixie> | some level of spam is manageable |
| 22:25 | GPHemsley | activates all the sleeper agents he secretly registered in October |
| 22:25 | <Hixie> | dude if the guy who has admin rights to our wiki is a sleeper agent, we're screwed :-P |
| 22:25 | <GPHemsley> | hah |
| 22:26 | <wilhelm> | He's probably a cylon. |
| 22:26 | <GPHemsley> | if the only thing the guy who has admin rights to the wiki does is create spam articles, I'd say you're OK ;) |
| 22:41 | <Hixie> | GPHemsley: knowing you you'd delete them yourself too... |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | should "2rd chapter, part 3" sort between "1" and "3" or between "2 2" and "2 4"? |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: (^ since you may care) |
| 22:43 | <Hixie> | also pretend i wrote "2nd", not "3rd" |
| 22:43 | <Hixie> | and definitely don't assume i wrote "2rd", that would be stoopid |
| 22:54 | <Hixie> | well if y'all are lacking in opinions on this, i'm gonna say it goes between "2 2" and "2 4". |
| 22:55 | <Hixie> | basically, if after parsing the first number, i detect another number later, then the first number will sort after any string that only contains one number. |
| 22:55 | <Hixie> | (and has the same prefix) |
| 22:59 | GPHemsley | has to admit that he isn't following what the proposal is |
| 22:59 | <GPHemsley> | can haz more examples plz? |
| 23:01 | <GPHemsley> | oh, hmm |
| 23:01 | <GPHemsley> | http://www.loc.gov/standards/datetime/pre-submission.html |
| 23:01 | <GPHemsley> | (this just coincidentally showed up in my Twitter stream) |
| 23:04 | <GPHemsley> | I'm not sure I agree with the splitting of uncertain vs. approximate, or how to handle it |
| 23:05 | <GPHemsley> | and I'd previously considered using 'X' where they use 'u' |
| 23:05 | <GPHemsley> | (for unspecified) |
| 23:06 | <GPHemsley> | and the handling of seasons seems rather arbitrary and ambiguous |
| 23:07 | <GPHemsley> | oh, hmm... actually, my use of 'X' would coincide more with their use of 'x' |
| 23:07 | <GPHemsley> | interesting |
| 23:08 | <GPHemsley> | (not that I'd really intended to distinguish precision) |
| 23:10 | <GPHemsley> | FYI, the homepage is here: http://www.loc.gov/standards/datetime/ |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | GPHemsley: examples are under "input" in http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/sorter/index.html |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | GPHemsley: ignore the code for now |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | and this is for what order table rows should be sorted by if a column contains those values |
| 23:13 | <GPHemsley> | right |
| 23:13 | <GPHemsley> | so, why would it sort between "1" and "3"? |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | "it"? |
| 23:13 | <GPHemsley> | oh, wait |
| 23:14 | <GPHemsley> | you confused me with all your typo corrections |
| 23:14 | <GPHemsley> | hang on |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | the "input" list on that page is in the order i'm advocating |
| 23:15 | <GPHemsley> | so, you prioritize numbers over letters? |
| 23:15 | <GPHemsley> | e.g., why is 2nd chapter, part 4 > 2-4-5 ? |
| 23:15 | <Hixie> | it should be < |
| 23:15 | <GPHemsley> | (or <, depending on how you see things) |
| 23:16 | <Hixie> | because [2,4]<[2,4,0] |
| 23:16 | <GPHemsley> | I meant higher up on the list |
| 23:16 | <GPHemsley> | ah |
| 23:16 | <Hixie> | higher is lower, the list is ascending |
| 23:16 | <GPHemsley> | yeah, we're in agreement here :P |
| 23:16 | <Hixie> | i just wrote "higher is lower", i should not be allowed to work today |
| 23:16 | <GPHemsley> | heh |
| 23:16 | <Hixie> | but putting that aside... |
| 23:17 | <GPHemsley> | and why is "2 4 6" < "2nd and 4th and 6th"? |
| 23:17 | <Hixie> | because " "<"nd and " |
| 23:18 | <GPHemsley> | ah, alphabetically? |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | (just to clarify, that's just the reasoning i used in constructing the list; i'm eager to consider other answers) |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | lexically, yeah |
| 23:18 | <GPHemsley> | so, sort numerically, then sort alphabetically? |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | sort of |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | except leading strings are sorted first |
| 23:18 | <GPHemsley> | ah, ok |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | so "1"<"a0" |
| 23:19 | <Hixie> | and single numbers are < lists of numbers |
| 23:19 | <GPHemsley> | so what is the order of "1", "3", "2 2", "2 4"? |
| 23:19 | <Hixie> | so "2"<"1 0"<"a1"<"a0 0" |
| 23:19 | <GPHemsley> | "1", "2 2", "2 4", "3"? |
| 23:19 | <Hixie> | in your case, 1;2;2 2;2 4 |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | er |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | 1;3;2 2;2 4 |
| 23:20 | <GPHemsley> | oh |
| 23:20 | <GPHemsley> | hmm |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | the reasoning being you don't want IP addresses and numbers sorting mixed |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | you want IP addresses to end up after the numbers |
| 23:21 | <Hixie> | (arguably) |
| 23:22 | <GPHemsley> | IP address with spaces? |
| 23:22 | <GPHemsley> | hmm |
| 23:22 | <Hixie> | "1.1.1.1" should sort after "2" |
| 23:22 | <Hixie> | (is the argument that defends the current list) |
| 23:23 | <GPHemsley> | how do you differentiate between an IP address and a version number? |
| 23:23 | <Hixie> | you don't |
| 23:23 | <GPHemsley> | but that would mean that version 2.2 sorts after version 3 |
| 23:23 | <Hixie> | the real question is how do you differentiate between a two-part version number and a floating point number |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | (or between a hex string and a string with an exponent) |
| 23:24 | <GPHemsley> | hmm |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | 2.2 is a single floating point number, so it sorts before 3 |
| 23:24 | <GPHemsley> | 2.2.2, then |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | 2.2.2 sorts after 3, yes |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | write it 3.0.0 if you want it to sort in the other order |
| 23:25 | <GPHemsley> | but if you have a table where versions are listed for software from different vendors.. |
| 23:25 | <Hixie> | yeah, dunno what you do in that case |
| 23:25 | <GPHemsley> | consider http://www.php.net/manual/en/function.version-compare.php |
| 23:26 | <GPHemsley> | I think "1 0" < "2" |
| 23:27 | <GPHemsley> | most people think of an IP address in terms of its blocks |
| 23:27 | <GPHemsley> | so they might expect 10.0.0.1 to be after 10 |
| 23:27 | <GPHemsley> | e.g. |
| 23:27 | <Hixie> | yeah, that can certainly be argued as well |
| 23:28 | <GPHemsley> | anyway, I'm gonna go eat, and let that ponder |
| 23:28 | <Hixie> | but that would give an order of: 1; 1.1.1; 1.1.1.1; 1.1 |
| 23:28 | <GPHemsley> | would it? |
| 23:29 | <Hixie> | 1 and 1.0 sort first, then 1.1.1 and 1.1.1.1 sort next because they're sorting on the first number "1", and then 1.1 goes last because it's bigger than 1.0 |
| 23:29 | <GPHemsley> | $ < * |
| 23:29 | <GPHemsley> | (regexp) |
| 23:29 | <GPHemsley> | or $ < . |
| 23:29 | <GPHemsley> | if you prefer |
| 23:29 | <Hixie> | the problem is 1.1.1.1 is a list of four "1.0"s, whereas "1.1" is a single number between 1.05 and 1.15. |
| 23:30 | <GPHemsley> | ah, there's your problem, then, maybe |
| 23:30 | <GPHemsley> | treating integers as floats |
| 23:30 | <GPHemsley> | 1 < 1.1 < 1.1.1 < 1.1.1.1 |
| 23:31 | <GPHemsley> | the real question is 1.1 ? 1.10 ? 1.11 ? 1.1.1 |
| 23:31 | GPHemsley | shrugs |
| 23:31 | <GPHemsley> | gotta eat |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | ok but we need 1 < 1e0 < 1.01 < 1.1 < 1.10 < 1.2 < 1.3 < 14e-1 < 9 < 1e2 |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | (http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20130214 covers some of this) |
| 23:49 | <zewt> | part of it is that you're probably not going to find a single collation that suits all purposes (eg. the hex/exponent thing), so at some point it'll have to be "if you want this or that you have to use an alternate sort key" |
| 23:50 | <zewt> | eg. for ip addresses, just have a sort key of the ip address in decimal |
| 23:51 | <zewt> | not that I know which things it should and shouldn't handle, or which things are mutually incompatible with which other things |
| 23:58 | <GPHemsley> | yeah, I mean, how often are you going to be sorting all of these things at the same time? |
| 23:58 | <GPHemsley> | (and if you are, you might not want to do all this fancy parsing) |
