| 04:35 | <JonathanNeal> | Why did $ become ! http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-selectors4-20110929/ http://www.w3.org/TR/selectors4/ ? |
| 05:08 | <zewt> | "an E element whose foo attribute value is exactly equal to any (ASCII-range) case-permutation of bar" is this just willfully refusing to use the terminology that everyone else uses? heh |
| 05:16 | <JonathanNeal> | Yea, the language as very confusing. |
| 06:49 | <JonathanNeal> | zewt: does this make more sense, https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/5002284 ? |
| 08:28 | <hsivonen> | whoa. there has been a release of Amaya in 2012. |
| 08:33 | <jgraham> | It is a mystery to me why more browsers don't provide an option to change the socket buffer size |
| 08:34 | <othermaciej> | a release of Amaya? why bother? |
| 08:34 | <othermaciej> | jgraham: I hope you're kidding... |
| 08:35 | <jgraham> | othermaciej: Which part? Amaya apparently adding that option or it being a good idea? The former seems to be true, the latter not so much :) |
| 08:36 | <othermaciej> | ah, didn't realize that was a follow-up to hsivonen's comment |
| 08:36 | <jgraham> | Oh yeah, just taken as a random comment, that wouldn't make much sense :) |
| 08:37 | <othermaciej> | it's kind of awesome to have a browser/editor that supports XPointer but not JavaScript |
| 08:48 | <marcosc> | othermaciej: we need a good open source browser to save us from the "webkit ie6 monoculture"! This is why Amaya had to be released! :P |
| 08:49 | <othermaciej> | wait, IE6 is switching to WebKit?!?! |
| 08:49 | <marcosc> | heh |
| 08:50 | <marcosc> | I liked @sgalineau's tweet the other day: "BREAKING: Amaya switching to WebKit". |
| 09:00 | <othermaciej> | I'd like to see emacs w3-mode switch to WebKit |
| 09:10 | <othermaciej> | I read the www-tag archives and was shocked to discover that I accidentally posted to www-tag |
| 09:26 | <darobin> | I think Amaya still has a thriving community of a few people |
| 09:26 | <darobin> | most people I know who use it actually use it as an editor |
| 09:44 | <Ms2ger> | OH: "CSS 2.1 can be a bit sloppy at times." |
| 10:00 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, I've used Amaya in the past year — as an editor. |
| 10:01 | <Ms2ger> | I've used Amaya once in the last decade, I think |
| 10:09 | <darobin> | IIRC glazou made a BlueGriffon extension that copies Amaya's features around PUT and stuff |
| 10:09 | <darobin> | to help people switch, because there actually is a user base |
| 10:10 | <darobin> | mostly people editing HTML over DAV it would seem |
| 10:10 | <Ms2ger> | But glazou also does polyglot, so I dunno if that says much |
| 10:51 | <slightlyoff> | gsnedders: on what OS? |
| 10:51 | <slightlyoff> | darobin: can anyone quantify the size of that usebase? |
| 10:52 | <slightlyoff> | I'm intensely curious |
| 10:52 | <darobin> | slightlyoff: for Amaya? |
| 10:52 | <darobin> | or people editing HTML over DAV? |
| 10:52 | <slightlyoff> | yep |
| 10:52 | <slightlyoff> | HTML-over-DAV might be anyone with Office |
| 10:52 | <slightlyoff> | (and Windows) |
| 10:52 | <darobin> | I can probably get some download numbers |
| 10:52 | <slightlyoff> | interesting |
| 10:52 | <slightlyoff> | well, don't do pointless work to satisfy my curiosity |
| 10:53 | <slightlyoff> | if there was a 7DA dashboard, that'd be one thing, but write no scripts on my behalf = ) |
| 10:53 | <darobin> | slightlyoff: the mailing list gets some messages http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-amaya/index.html |
| 10:54 | <slightlyoff> | I see...26 messages in the last 2 months, a handful of individual posters |
| 10:54 | <darobin> | OMG it's on GITHUB |
| 10:54 | <slightlyoff> | I think I have the measure of it now = ) |
| 10:54 | <annevk> | The only user I know is Chaals and he might have switched to BlueGriffon |
| 10:54 | <darobin> | it's read-only though, the *real* repo is in CVS |
| 10:55 | <slightlyoff> | I tried it a couple of months back and was amazed at how efficiently it turned spare CPU cores into lap-heaters |
| 10:56 | <darobin> | I wonder if it still includes an SVG editor |
| 11:03 | <gsnedders> | slightlyoff: On OS X. |
| 11:04 | <slightlyoff> | same here...astonishing it even started...was super crashy for me |
| 11:04 | <gsnedders> | Worked for me fine. Couldn't get BlueGriffon working. :) |
| 11:10 | <darobin> | bah, Firefox really sucks at stepping in when a script hits 100% and stays there :( |
| 11:11 | <gsnedders> | They should just solve the halting problem! |
| 11:12 | <darobin> | gsnedders: hehe |
| 11:12 | <darobin> | you *can* detect that something fishy is going on by monitoring the process |
| 11:12 | <darobin> | heuristics don't have to suck |
| 11:12 | <gsnedders> | Or you can just not block the UI. ;P |
| 11:14 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders, you mean, like Opera-on-webkit will do? ;) |
| 11:16 | <darobin> | gsnedders: that would be sweet too, yes — especially if the UI had a feature to kill scripts |
| 11:18 | <karlcow> | Amaya is also very practical to translate an HTML document in wysiwyg mode. The UI is horrendous. It is a only a research project from INRIA. Also very practical for people who want to edit Rendered HTML on a server allowing PUT. |
| 11:26 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/pull/26 (hint) ;-) |
| 11:26 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, right |
| 11:27 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, done |
| 11:27 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Thanks! |
| 11:28 | jgraham | only got notified of that in 3 different ways, probably need to add a few more |
| 11:38 | <jgraham> | I hate to propose renaming things |
| 11:38 | <jgraham> | But |
| 11:38 | <jgraham> | Calling something "FontLoader" |
| 11:38 | <jgraham> | Does sort of suggest |
| 11:38 | <jgraham> | It can name fonts |
| 11:38 | <jgraham> | s/name/load |
| 11:38 | <jgraham> | Which it can't |
| 11:39 | <jgraham> | Apparently. |
| 11:44 | <annevk> | FontLoaderManager would be too Java |
| 11:44 | <annevk> | in any event, that can still be renamed |
| 11:48 | <karlcow> | FontControlTower, Fontitude (French joke inside), Fondue, FontHome(Opera) |
| 11:49 | karlcow | obviously needs a morning cafe. |
| 12:04 | <smaug____> | jgraham: what does FontLoader do if it doesn't load fonts? |
| 12:06 | <Ms2ger> | Get load events for @font-face fonts |
| 12:19 | <annevk> | Looks like jd nuked it from http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-fonts/ |
| 12:19 | <annevk> | Or am I missing something? |
| 12:20 | <smaug____> | can't see it there, no |
| 12:23 | <jgraham> | It seems to have its own spec now |
| 12:23 | <jgraham> | http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-font-load-events/FontLoadEvents.html |
| 12:34 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: it’s moving to a separate spec |
| 12:34 | <SimonSapin> | because we want to advance css3-fonts, but that part is not quite ready |
| 12:53 | <smaug____> | odd interface |
| 12:53 | <smaug____> | EventTarget and also using callbacks |
| 13:21 | <darobin> | whoa weird |
| 13:21 | <darobin> | any reason this isn't just using Progress Events? |
| 13:21 | <darobin> | which would also make it possible to rename as FontProgress or some such that isn't as confusing |
| 13:23 | <darobin> | smaug____: I think that notifyWhenFontsReady(cb) is there so that you can know when all required fonts have loaded, rather than track the loading of each font individually |
| 13:23 | <darobin> | of course, that doesn't mean there couldn't be an allfontsloaded event |
| 13:23 | <annevk> | they're not progress events |
| 13:24 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: ah yeah, CSS WG's silly game |
| 13:25 | <darobin> | annevk: hence my question |
| 13:26 | <annevk> | darobin: I meant it wouldn't make sense for them to be |
| 13:26 | <darobin> | ah, maybe I read it too fast |
| 13:27 | <annevk> | sounds like you read it like I read it the first time |
| 13:27 | <darobin> | annevk: onloadstart and friends for individual font loads could be PE, no? |
| 13:28 | darobin | should probably actually read the prose too |
| 13:28 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, I hope you like the prose, I wrote it ;) |
| 13:28 | <annevk> | if you only have start and load, it doesn't make sense to use a complicated interface |
| 13:28 | <darobin> | ah, that's why it's so confusing :) |
| 13:28 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: really? |
| 13:29 | <darobin> | sure, but I reckon that this is wired into the same underlying resource loading code, so I would expect it to be possible to just wire this to existing PE support |
| 13:29 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: that would explain why it's somewhat better text than I expected |
| 13:29 | <Ms2ger> | :D |
| 13:29 | <annevk> | darobin: but what's the point? |
| 13:30 | <annevk> | darobin: and how would you distinguish individual fonts |
| 13:30 | <Ms2ger> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0305.html |
| 13:30 | <darobin> | annevk: well, simpler implementation, and can be plugged into whatever code/libs you have that get PE |
| 13:30 | <annevk> | I can assure you the implementation would be more complex |
| 13:31 | <darobin> | fair enough, I admit I'm just skimming |
| 13:41 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: do you mean everything should just be living standards without stabilization status? |
| 13:41 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: yes |
| 13:41 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: wait, not necessarily without that |
| 13:42 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: having a little thingie on the side that says "this is new, there might be dragons" seems like a good idea |
| 13:43 | <SimonSapin> | yes, we need some way to signal "this is mostly done, go ahead and expose it to the web" vs. "WIP, we’re gonna change it completely a few more times" |
| 13:46 | <Ms2ger> | SimonSapin, and in the CSSWG, that's LC? ;) |
| 13:46 | <SimonSapin> | Ms2ger: Renaming Period? Yes indeed |
| 13:49 | <jgraham> | You don't need a way to signal that |
| 13:49 | <jgraham> | Really |
| 13:49 | <jgraham> | At least not to authors |
| 13:50 | <SimonSapin> | I meant to implementors |
| 13:50 | <jgraham> | To authors "done" is "implemented in a browser I care about" |
| 13:50 | <jgraham> | Implementors are in the group and should theoretically have a clue |
| 13:50 | <jgraham> | Although there is evidence that isn't the case |
| 13:51 | <SimonSapin> | I’ve been implementing WeasyPrint for 1.5 year before joining the group |
| 13:51 | <jgraham> | That's not very long :) |
| 13:51 | <SimonSapin> | that I could is the point of having specs, IMO |
| 13:52 | <jgraham> | Also, I guess it doens't have the same lock-in potential as others implementing half baked things |
| 13:53 | <jgraham> | The point of specs is to make interoperability possible. |
| 13:53 | <jgraham> | As a new implemnentor you are very unlikely to be chasing the bleeding edge |
| 13:54 | <jgraham> | Once you are chasing the bleeding edge you should be actively involved with the standards body |
| 13:54 | <jgraham> | (I don't think that having stability markers is a bad thing btw) |
| 13:54 | <jgraham> | (indeed, I have advocated them) |
| 13:54 | <jgraham> | (but it is important to be aware of who the target market for them is) |
| 13:55 | <jgraham> | (another target market is evangelists) |
| 13:56 | <jgraham> | (they might be less willing to promote the heck out of things marked unstable) |
| 13:56 | <jgraham> | (although) |
| 13:56 | <jgraham> | (probably again if implementors ship they will promote) |
| 13:56 | <darobin> | the target for stability markers in a spec is really implementers |
| 13:57 | <darobin> | they're the only ones I've ever heard serious, motivated requests on this from |
| 13:58 | <darobin> | jgraham: "Once you are chasing the bleeding edge you should be actively involved with the standards body" |
| 13:58 | <darobin> | but how do you know that you're chasing the bleeding edge if you don't have stability markers? :) |
| 13:58 | <darobin> | and in fact I think that new implementers are likely to be chasing the bleeding edge in one way or another |
| 13:58 | <darobin> | because it's more likely that they're taking the spec to some new place it wasn't going before |
| 13:59 | <darobin> | e.g. I reckon WeasyPrint has some bleeding edge stuff compared to what browsers support for instance for printing :) |
| 14:00 | <jgraham> | You are chasing the bleeding edge if you are implementing stuff that some others (in your area) don't have. |
| 14:01 | <jgraham> | e.g. Prince might be a more reasonable comparison for WeasyPrint |
| 14:01 | <darobin> | the whole of print is bleeding edge when it comes to the web |
| 14:01 | <SimonSapin> | WeasyPrint is not really bleeding edge (yet) compared to PrinceXML or others, but the spec *was* behind all of them |
| 14:08 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: On the other hand, if you're implementing the document loading from HTML5, even in a brand new browsers, you're bleeding edge :) |
| 14:16 | <marcosc> | annevk: if I have a JSON file encoded in ISO-8859-1, and I need to parse an URL from it (e.g., {"path": "¢?dfsa"}) using the URL spec. Would I say, "let url be the result of parsing /path/ with the encoding override set to ISO-8859-1"? |
| 14:17 | <Ms2ger> | I would say "All manifest files MUST use UTF-8." |
| 14:17 | <marcosc> | Ms2ger: B2G don't :( |
| 14:17 | <marcosc> | Just tested it |
| 14:17 | <Ms2ger> | Boo, mounir |
| 14:17 | <marcosc> | I can force it |
| 14:18 | <annevk> | marcosc: if this is not a legacy JSON format, doesn't sound like a good idea |
| 14:18 | <marcosc> | ok, I wanted to check. |
| 14:18 | <marcosc> | I can say that if the JSON is not UTF-8, then cook the user's device |
| 14:18 | <annevk> | marcosc: from what I heard Mozilla is okay with changes due to standardization |
| 14:18 | <annevk> | marcosc: more like burn the server ;) |
| 14:18 | <mounir> | yes we are ;) |
| 14:19 | <annevk> | there you go, mounir, voice of Mozilla |
| 14:19 | <marcosc> | ok, cook the server and the device it is |
| 14:35 | <annevk> | marcosc: btw, even in the case you'd support legacy encodings, you'd still not use that with the URL parser |
| 14:36 | <marcosc> | annevk: nah, it's better I just ban non-UTF-8 |
| 14:36 | <annevk> | marcosc: e.g. CSS is an example of that |
| 14:36 | <jgraham> | Wasn't JSON utf8-by-definition? |
| 14:36 | <marcosc> | jgraham: yes, it was |
| 14:37 | <marcosc> | or is |
| 14:37 | <annevk> | marcosc: if you have url(é) in CSS and the file is encoded using some iso-blah it will encode that character per utf-8 for fetching |
| 14:37 | <annevk> | marcosc: which is the default behavior of the URL parser; just HTML needs some weird stuff |
| 14:38 | <marcosc> | annevk: ok. If possible, it would be great if you can add a few examples in the URL spec around this stuff. |
| 14:39 | <annevk> | marcosc: well it does say "The associated query encoding is a legacy concept only relevant for HTML." so I guess I'd play back the question first and ask why you thought it was relevant :) |
| 14:39 | <marcosc> | annevk: I thought it was relevant because when I read the start of the algorithm I say that I could provide an optional encoding. |
| 14:40 | <marcosc> | And I was checking what FxOS would do with ISO-8859-1 JSON files, even though they were non conforming |
| 14:41 | <marcosc> | (and then I started testing URLs, and thought I would ask because I was unsure) |
| 14:42 | <marcosc> | annevk: note that I was not using the API itself, I was invoking the parsing algorithm from another spec. |
| 14:42 | <annevk> | I see |
| 14:43 | <annevk> | Okay, I will expand the note under URL parser |
| 14:43 | <annevk> | thanks marcosc |
| 14:44 | <annevk> | marcosc: I hear you about examples btw, but for that I'd like to see this spec become implemented and accepted |
| 14:44 | <annevk> | for some reason I find good examples hard to do |
| 14:45 | <marcosc> | annevk: understood. I'm happy to throw you some questions that could turn into examples. |
| 14:46 | <marcosc> | Like: given the string " ?abc=123#123 " what comes out the other end of the parsing algorithm? |
| 14:46 | <marcosc> | it's pretty simple, but useful. |
| 14:46 | <marcosc> | like, the white space gets trimmed, |
| 14:46 | <marcosc> | etc. |
| 14:46 | <annevk> | marcosc: so is it Marcos Cáceres or Marcos Caceres? |
| 14:46 | <annevk> | marcosc: you're not being consistent :p |
| 14:47 | <SimonSapin> | marcosc: isn’t whitespace in a[href] trimmed by HTML before the URL is parsed? Or does URL trim it too? |
| 14:47 | <marcosc> | heh, true. Should standardise that... It used to be hard to do accents on computers, now it's not too bad |
| 14:48 | <marcosc> | SimonSapin: I'm just talking about http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#parsing right now |
| 14:48 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: URL trims it |
| 14:48 | <marcosc> | SimonSapin: just generically, I mean |
| 14:48 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: I guess we could move that requirement to <a>, CSS url(), etc. but that seems less optimal somehow, but maybe more clean? |
| 14:49 | <annevk> | marcosc: so you prefer with the accent? |
| 14:49 | <marcosc> | yep |
| 14:49 | <annevk> | thanks |
| 14:49 | <SimonSapin> | CSS already trims whitespace for unquoted url() or for attr(foo url), but it’s fine if URL does it too |
| 14:49 | <annevk> | marcosc: a bug with a list of such questions would be excellent btw |
| 14:50 | <SimonSapin> | maybe better, even |
| 14:50 | <marcosc> | annevk, ok, no probs. |
| 14:50 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: I guess the only problem might be if whitespace is not an agreed upon concept |
| 14:50 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: I haven't really checked that |
| 14:50 | <marcosc> | annevk: I'll file it |
| 14:50 | <annevk> | ta |
| 14:51 | <marcosc> | Will add more to the comments as new questions come up |
| 14:53 | <annevk> | marcosc: http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-url-parser has a better note now |
| 14:53 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#whitespace \t\n\r\f and the space |
| 14:54 | <annevk> | is \f U+000D? |
| 14:54 | <SimonSapin> | btw, "white space" or "whitespace"? |
| 14:54 | <annevk> | I'm standardizing all my specs on whitespace |
| 14:54 | <annevk> | as over time in English contractions originally written with a space, will then get a hyphen, and then lose the hyphen |
| 14:55 | <annevk> | and I don't really want to play that game so I'll just move to where it ends up |
| 14:55 | <SimonSapin> | U+0020 space, U+0009 \t, U+000A \n, U+000D \r, U+000C \f |
| 14:55 | <annevk> | okay so that matches URL |
| 14:55 | <annevk> | and Encoding |
| 14:55 | <annevk> | http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/#ascii-whitespace |
| 14:55 | <SimonSapin> | good |
| 14:55 | <annevk> | yeah :) |
| 14:56 | <annevk> | I believe there might have been some difference at one point between HTML and CSS, but maybe hsivonen got that fixed |
| 14:56 | <annevk> | prolly U+000C |
| 14:59 | <jre> | Hi there. Has anybody seen IE 10's FormData produce a broken request body, such as in http://jira.icesoft.org/browse/MOBI-567?focusedCommentId=43372&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-43372 ? |
| 15:02 | <zewt> | ("white space" sounds like a wall with nothing on it) |
| 15:03 | <annevk> | (the annoying thing of course is that CSS has white-space) |
| 15:04 | <annevk> | (I tried preventing this problem with fullscreen, but not everyone is happy with that because browsers had prefixed versions of fullScreen) |
| 15:04 | <annevk> | (filename is another one, but apparently that is exposed as filename though not always written as such) |
| 15:05 | <annevk> | maybe at some point this stuff becomes important enough for a dictionary, but for now looking at prior art seems sufficient |
| 15:05 | <SimonSapin> | css21 has white space, css3-syntax white space, css3-value has both, I don’t see white-space |
| 15:06 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: I meant the property |
| 15:06 | <SimonSapin> | css3-syntax whitespace, even |
| 15:06 | <SimonSapin> | oh ok |
| 15:50 | <annevk> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Fetch#Fetch am I missing anything? |
| 15:50 | <annevk> | oh yes, Cookies at least |
| 15:56 | <Ms2ger> | Set-Cookie2 |
| 15:57 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: what year is this? |
| 15:57 | <Ms2ger> | 1997 |
| 15:58 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, it was actually defined in 2000 |
| 16:04 | <annevk> | Meh, nobody ever has opinions on the stuff I write |
| 16:04 | <annevk> | Although maybe that's preferable over the army of pitchforks that's chasing Hixie |
| 16:05 | darobin | has some pitchforks he could use if you want |
| 16:05 | <darobin> | annevk: will you be in London on 15/03? |
| 16:05 | <annevk> | My magic eight ball says almost definitely |
| 16:05 | <jgraham> | Is there a party? |
| 16:05 | <darobin> | I'm thinking of maybe hitting a pub there for my birthday |
| 16:06 | <jgraham> | Oh there is! |
| 16:06 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, with pitchforks |
| 16:06 | <annevk> | darobin: sounds like I'll be buying you a beer |
| 16:06 | <darobin> | annevk: great! |
| 16:06 | <darobin> | then I'll buy you beer too :) |
| 16:07 | <annevk> | find a few more people and Saturday is going to be terrible |
| 16:07 | jgraham | wonders why darobin would rather drink in England than France |
| 16:07 | <darobin> | I do have a few more people |
| 16:07 | wilhelm | wonders this too. |
| 16:07 | <darobin> | jgraham: well, I'll happen to be in London, so that's a factor |
| 16:07 | <Ms2ger> | Getting completely wasted is more acceptable in England |
| 16:08 | <darobin> | also, London has beer, whereas France only has bubbly piss |
| 16:08 | <jgraham> | But it's bubbly *French* piss |
| 16:08 | <darobin> | actually it's mostly bubbly Alsacian piss |
| 16:08 | <jgraham> | And therefore you are supposed to think it probably the finest piss in the world |
| 16:09 | <darobin> | there's a derogation for Alsace |
| 16:09 | <darobin> | it's not really France |
| 16:09 | <darobin> | we just took it from the Germans to piss them off |
| 16:09 | <darobin> | and they can't even make proper German beer |
| 16:09 | <annevk> | more Cookies, less piss please |
| 16:09 | <wilhelm> | It did piss them off pretty bad. Well done. |
| 16:09 | <darobin> | :) |
| 16:13 | <annevk> | wilhelm: nice |
| 16:19 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 16:21 | <annevk> | good afternoon dglazkov, just missed tea time |
| 16:21 | <dglazkov> | tea time sounds excellent. |
| 16:22 | <dglazkov> | unless it's an euphemism for something horrible |
| 16:22 | <dglazkov> | like "we tea-timed slightlyoff so bad last night, I don't think he's coming back to #whatwg anymore" |
| 16:23 | <wilhelm> | darobin: Those fake French have some of the best rieslings, though. I approve. |
| 16:23 | <darobin> | wilhelm: indeed |
| 16:23 | <darobin> | got to have something to save them :) |
| 16:23 | <annevk> | dglazkov: I'm not sure I want to know what that might mean |
| 16:24 | <dglazkov> | :D |
| 16:27 | <jgraham> | Pretty sure it involves scones though |
| 16:28 | <Ms2ger> | "scones", eh |
| 16:33 | <karlcow> | hmm going through the bugs of the week and seeing so many bugs opened/commented/reopened by Fred Andrews |
| 16:34 | <karlcow> | with the same message "The architecture of the CDM is not defined." |
| 16:34 | <karlcow> | not sure what to do with it |
| 16:34 | <Ms2ger> | Ignore |
| 16:34 | <Ms2ger> | That works for me |
| 16:34 | <karlcow> | ok thanks Ms2ger |
| 16:35 | <annevk> | Is the architecture defined? |
| 16:35 | Ms2ger | is good at ignoring |
| 16:35 | karlcow | is in the process of writing OpenWeb weekly |
| 16:36 | <annevk> | dglazkov: Event.path cannot be exposed differently to Shadow DOM and normal DOM I think |
| 16:37 | <dglazkov> | why not? Event.target is |
| 16:37 | <annevk> | dglazkov: well, I guess if you change it like target is changed maybe? |
| 16:37 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 16:37 | <dglazkov> | right |
| 16:37 | <dglazkov> | we should probably make it a copy, like Event.getPath() or something |
| 16:38 | <annevk> | it can be path, since the list will not change anyway |
| 16:38 | <dglazkov> | oh right |
| 16:39 | <annevk> | well that's not quite right |
| 16:39 | <annevk> | it will change if you dispatch the same object again |
| 16:40 | <karlcow> | darobin: ? "<p>Three constructor is provided for creating" — https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/8b5904d3aa72da763905165df7d4b5d8bf268c93 |
| 16:41 | <annevk> | dglazkov: I'm sort of thinking we should move about half of Shadow DOM into DOM |
| 16:42 | <dglazkov> | annevk: let's do it |
| 16:42 | dglazkov | grabs a shovel |
| 16:42 | <dglazkov> | annevk: do you want to VC to discuss a plan of action? |
| 16:43 | <annevk> | I guess we should maybe wait a little longer for implementors to catch up? |
| 16:43 | <dglazkov> | who cares about implementors |
| 16:43 | <annevk> | And settle on some of the important questions. Like DocumentFragment versus Element |
| 16:43 | <dglazkov> | screw them |
| 16:43 | <annevk> | heh |
| 16:43 | <annevk> | And then TabAtkins should patch CSS to not just take into account the DOM tree, but also its shadows |
| 16:43 | <darobin> | karlcow: huwah? |
| 16:44 | <darobin> | oh, yeah thanks |
| 16:46 | <karlcow> | with luv from the cow |
| 16:47 | <annevk> | dglazkov: Sorry for sending mixed messages. I'll let you fix the bugs first and then once I have a coherent plan and everything is a bit further along we can discuss it. |
| 16:47 | <dglazkov> | annevk: <phelpsmom> |
| 16:47 | <annevk> | dglazkov: Lets stick to coordinated monkeypatching for now. |
| 16:48 | <annevk> | dglazkov: I do not know what that means, but I'll assume it's friendly :) |
| 16:49 | <dglazkov> | annevk: http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/thefw.com/files/2012/08/michael-phelps-mom-cheers-200-meter-butterfly-silver-medal.gif |
| 16:50 | <annevk> | dglazkov: I guess that's kinda appropriate :-) |
| 16:50 | <dglazkov> | :D |
| 16:52 | <karlcow> | That's hypnotic |
| 16:54 | <dglazkov> | karlcow: no, that's hypnotic: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oMnwAgkQl1Y/TZMGsa0PQ3I/AAAAAAAAAX4/8dVNBTkcQlI/s1600/2.gif |
| 16:55 | <karlcow> | is it supposed to move? It doesn't at all with me. Not sure why. |
| 16:56 | <dglazkov> | maybe you're not susceptible to hypnotism. Superspy qualified. |
| 16:56 | <karlcow> | I doubt… :p |
| 16:56 | <karlcow> | I guess I'm too much into the illusion |
| 17:36 | <JonathanNeal> | hello |
| 17:36 | <karlcow> | TabAtkins: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0322.html |
| 17:37 | <karlcow> | "Please review and let me know if anything looks wrong." |
| 17:37 | <karlcow> | this document? http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-syntax/ |
| 17:41 | <annevk> | oh look |
| 17:41 | <annevk> | I published another REC, thanks to Lachy this time around |
| 17:41 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/REC-selectors-api-20130221/ |
| 17:42 | <annevk> | affiliation is kinda messed up, but who cares |
| 17:42 | <Lachy> | Oh, oops. I forgot to fix that. |
| 17:42 | <Lachy> | nevermind. |
| 17:42 | <Lachy> | It's wrong for me too now. |
| 17:43 | <annevk> | Lachy: you can ask the W3C to edit in place |
| 17:43 | <tantek> | time for a PER! |
| 17:43 | <annevk> | Lachy: especially if your email address changed that might be a good idea |
| 17:43 | <Lachy> | my email address hasn't changed |
| 17:43 | annevk | is happy for the email on that particular topic to go to /dev/null |
| 17:43 | <Lachy> | since I was never using my @opera.com address |
| 17:43 | <annevk> | Lachy: smart man |
| 17:47 | <Lachy> | I have to start looking for a new job soon. Though, it's been fun working on my own stuff for the past few weeks. |
| 17:49 | <Ms2ger> | We're hiring ;) |
| 17:49 | <mounir> | Ms2ger: you? |
| 17:49 | <Ms2ger> | Ms2ger Inc. |
| 17:50 | <MikeSmith> | annevk, Lachy - I can edit the affiliation info on that right now if you want |
| 17:50 | <Lachy> | Ms2ger, what company? |
| 17:50 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, thanks. |
| 17:50 | <Ms2ger> | MoCo |
| 17:50 | <Lachy> | what is MoCo? |
| 17:50 | <Ms2ger> | Or probably Mozilla Denmark if you're staying in Europe |
| 17:51 | <Lachy> | yeah, I'd like to stay in Norway for a little longer |
| 17:51 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: that'd be great http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/ has my preferred affiliation |
| 17:51 | <Lachy> | only to stay with my girlfriend, who isn't ready to move just yet. |
| 17:52 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, I guess you can set my affiliation to none or invited expert or whatever is conventional. |
| 17:52 | <annevk> | prolly just deleting the company is easiest in that case |
| 17:54 | <karlcow> | :) |
| 17:54 | <Lachy> | Ms2ger, I guess it's worth a shot trying at Mozilla. Who should I send my resume to? |
| 17:55 | <tantek> | Lachy - I think you know a few of us ;) |
| 17:55 | <Ms2ger> | I believe annevk has better access to that information now :) |
| 17:55 | <karlcow> | https://careers.mozilla.org/ but … fear the HR wall |
| 17:55 | <tantek> | Mozilla employees typically put "Mozilla" as their affiliation on specs, e.g.: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transitions/ |
| 17:56 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy, annevk done |
| 17:56 | <annevk> | tantek: for WHATWG DOM it was Mozilla Foundation for a while until I changed it to just Mozilla |
| 17:56 | karlcow | would be happy if there was no name, no company at all, but that's unlikely :) |
| 17:57 | <Lachy> | thanks MikeSmith |
| 17:57 | <annevk> | ta MikeSmith |
| 17:57 | <annevk> | karlcow: maybe, making someone responsible can work reasonably well |
| 17:58 | <karlcow> | annevk: I don't understand. ☺ try again |
| 17:58 | <annevk> | karlcow: it's not important |
| 17:58 | karlcow | likes the irony of Opera being on top of the spec and suddenly disappearing http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/REC-selectors-api-20130221/ |
| 17:58 | <karlcow> | for the Rec spec |
| 17:59 | <karlcow> | New whizbang marketing opportunity for companies, hire the employee just before Rec for the Press Releases :) |
| 18:16 | <SimonSapin> | TabAtkins: you can not set the type flag of hash tokens after the fact by just looking at the value, because at that point you don’t know if an hypen or a digit was escaped in the source or not |
| 18:18 | <SimonSapin> | TabAtkins: #\- and #\31 are valid ID selectors |
| 18:20 | <SimonSapin> | TabAtkins: also, a note saying that this is for ID selectors would help |
| 18:26 | <MikeSmith> | wow now there's a console.table ? |
| 18:26 | <annevk> | Are we banning #x#y in CSS yet? |
| 18:26 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: ^ |
| 18:26 | <MikeSmith> | https://plus.google.com/115133653231679625609/posts/PmTC5wwJVEc |
| 18:26 | <Ms2ger> | MikeSmith, spec it! :) |
| 18:27 | <karlcow> | ahah |
| 18:28 | <karlcow> | approaching little by little what iPython Notebook does |
| 18:29 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: I see that honza already specced it |
| 18:29 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.softwareishard.com/blog/firebug/tabular-logs-in-firebug/ |
| 18:30 | <MikeSmith> | we should just start making specs by linking to blog postings |
| 18:31 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: sorry, what? |
| 18:31 | <SimonSapin> | that’s a valid selector which never matches anything … but what’s your point? |
| 18:31 | <SimonSapin> | the above is about the syntax of ID selectors being more restrictive than that of HASH tokens … and the difference is only detectable at tokenization time |
| 18:31 | <zewt> | doesn't look like a good api, loses the log priority entirely |
| 18:31 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: #b#c is valid in CSS |
| 18:31 | <karlcow> | +1 to what MikeSmith with a minor change. Link to the web.archive.org of the web posting |
| 18:31 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: yes … what about it? |
| 18:32 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: I think it should be invalid |
| 18:32 | <SimonSapin> | why? |
| 18:32 | <zewt> | better off with console.log(new LogTable(x)) or something like that |
| 18:32 | GPHemsley | still thinks there should be support for multiple IDs on a single element |
| 18:33 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: because it can never match an element |
| 18:33 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: there used to be a theoretical possibility, but that's gone now |
| 18:36 | <SimonSapin> | should :nth-child(odd):nth-child(even) *>:root or :not(*|*) all be invalid too? |
| 18:37 | <zewt> | anne: doesn't mean it should be illegal |
| 18:38 | <zewt> | something validators might point out, sure, but not illegal syntactically |
| 18:38 | <SimonSapin> | [foo=a][foo=b] :last-child~* :empty>* |
| 18:38 | <SimonSapin> | we have tons of these |
| 18:38 | <MikeSmith> | zewt: console.O(log n) |
| 18:38 | <SimonSapin> | I dont’t thing they should be invalid |
| 18:39 | <jamesr> | .tobe:not(.tobe) |
| 18:39 | <zewt> | mike: what? heb |
| 18:40 | <zewt> | (my crappy android keyboard is showing) |
| 18:41 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: ^ |
| 18:47 | <karlcow> | 200 mails to go… |
| 18:49 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: those are not unique |
| 18:49 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: so it's different from # |
| 18:50 | <annevk> | but then again, #test is not like getElementById("test") ... |
| 18:51 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: isn’t #a#b the same as [id=a][id=b] ? |
| 18:51 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: theoretically not |
| 18:51 | <Ms2ger> | Different specificity |
| 18:51 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: these days it might be, but before DTD assigned IDs and xml:id could also be matched by #test |
| 18:51 | <SimonSapin> | "same" as in matches the same elements |
| 18:52 | <GPHemsley> | TabAtkins: Runaway element? http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-css-counter-styles-3-20130221/#override-system |
| 18:54 | <SimonSapin> | anyway, my point is that there are many selectors that can never match anything, and that doesn’t mean they should be invalid |
| 18:57 | <zewt> | and making things that can't match anything invalid doesn't help anyone (they don't have to be invalid for validators/linters to point them out) |
| 19:06 | <karlcow> | is the "Beacon API" what I think it is? |
| 19:07 | <karlcow> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JanMar/0391.html |
| 19:07 | <karlcow> | Yes it is… "Frankly, analytics don’t have many good options" |
| 19:08 | <karlcow> | I wonder if MikeSmith can spare a bit of his bottle. |
| 19:23 | <GPHemsley> | TabAtkins: I'm not sure that 'width' should include the value of 'negative' in its calculations... |
| 19:26 | <GPHemsley> | TabAtkins: Also, the 'fallback' explanation is somewhat contradictory with regard to loops. A loop can't be both good and bad. |
| 19:26 | GPHemsley | hopes it's OK that I'm writing all this in here. |
| 19:28 | <GPHemsley> | TabAtkins: It would be good to explain in a note what kind of systems do not use a negative sign. |
| 19:30 | <GPHemsley> | TabAtkins: §3.8, ¶2: "counter style" should be "‘@counter-style’" |
| 19:31 | <GPHemsley> | TabAtkins: Similarly, the following paragraph needs a link. |
