| 00:12 | <aklein> | hsivonen: hey there. I'd ask Hixie too, but he seems to be away, so I'm going to ask your opinion first. when the HTML parser spec says to look in the stack of open elements for an element with the "same tag name as that of the token", is it supposed to imply a namespace check as well as localName (the token, naturally, has no namespace)? |
| 00:17 | <gsnedders> | aklein: If it doesn't that's a spec bug. |
| 00:18 | <gsnedders> | (Regardless, is there any way to create a case where the namespaces differ?) |
| 00:18 | <gsnedders> | (I can't think of any) |
| 00:20 | <gsnedders> | (Becuase I think it assumes they cannot differ.) |
| 00:20 | <gsnedders> | (But it'd be nice to have the assumption explicit) |
| 00:20 | <aklein> | gsnedders: foreign content allows non-HTML elements onto the stack, and MathML (at least; may apply to SVG too) has cases that go back to HTML mode |
| 00:20 | <gsnedders> | aklein: But when can you hit any of the same-tag-name-as-that-of-the-token cases like that? |
| 00:22 | <gsnedders> | Given you break out of foreign content when you hit anything that causes that? |
| 00:22 | <aklein> | sadly not everything breaks out of foreign content |
| 00:22 | <gsnedders> | But what of things that search the stack? |
| 00:22 | <aklein> | thead, tbody, and tfoot, for example, are allowed in foreign content |
| 00:23 | <gsnedders> | But closing any of them merely pops the item off the top of the stack, if it is the top of the stack. |
| 00:23 | <gsnedders> | And if it's the top of the stack, they'll be handled as a foregin content element anyway. |
| 00:23 | <gsnedders> | s/element/tag/ |
| 00:24 | <aklein> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tree-construction.html#parsing-main-intbody is one case where this comes up |
| 00:25 | <gsnedders> | Oh, the "clear the stack back to a table body content". |
| 00:25 | <aklein> | yeah, there's more than just closing that element |
| 00:26 | <gsnedders> | Well, if it's comparing with the current node I'd assume it's namespace, localName tuple. |
| 00:26 | gsnedders | wonders what UAs do. |
| 00:26 | <aklein> | but tokens don't have any namespace |
| 00:27 | <gsnedders> | The stack of open elements isn't tokens, though |
| 00:27 | <zewt> | does anybody actually implement the stream API (StreamBuilder, StreamReader), or is that still just a proposal spec? |
| 00:27 | <aklein> | right, the stack clearly has elements in it |
| 00:28 | <gsnedders> | aklein: And it's clear it back to one of these elements (as named, per xref in HTML NS) |
| 00:28 | <jamesr> | zewt, is that this? https://bugs.webkit.org/showdependencytree.cgi?id=110194&hide_resolved=1 |
| 00:28 | <gsnedders> | aklein: On the other hand, the "same tag name as that of the token" case is ambiguious |
| 00:28 | <jamesr> | (i'm not sure, haven't looked at those patches) |
| 00:28 | <jamesr> | and there's a link to a public-webapps discussion |
| 00:28 | <zewt> | (mostly curious about whether that spec is actually going anywhere, not trying to use it) |
| 00:29 | <jamesr> | zewt, that's a good question! |
| 00:29 | <jamesr> | somebody cares enough to post patches to WK |
| 00:30 | <aklein> | gsnedders: yup, it's that ambiguity I'm wondering about. it seems totally reasonable to assume it means "in the html namespace", just want to make sure there's not some case where comparing only tag names is important |
| 00:31 | <Hixie> | aklein: pretty sure the namespace can't matter, but do you have a sample string input that i can work through to see the problem? |
| 00:31 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2114 |
| 00:32 | <gsnedders> | Everybody ignores namespaces, which seems bad |
| 00:32 | <gsnedders> | Except IE. |
| 00:32 | <gsnedders> | Not tested that. |
| 00:34 | <gsnedders> | IE10/Win8 ignores namespaces too. |
| 00:35 | gsnedders | would much rather change behaviour everywhere, FWIW |
| 00:35 | <Hixie> | well that input is obviously bogus, right? not clear what the obvious answer is; what the spec says seems reasonable on the face of it. |
| 00:36 | <aklein> | I definitely can't think of any non-bogus inputs :) |
| 00:37 | <aklein> | Hixie: I think the bad thing is to have a mismatch between the "is this in scope?" check and the further manipulation of the stack/tree |
| 00:37 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Sometimes you're compared a token name with an element name, and sometimes an element name with an element name. Does the latter imply a namespace check? The former cannot have one. |
| 00:37 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: That seems bad. |
| 00:37 | <Hixie> | the spec never implies anything. |
| 00:38 | <gsnedders> | "Search through the stack of open elements till you reach [xref'd] html element". That has a namespace check, right? |
| 00:39 | <gsnedders> | As that xref is to the http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml html element |
| 00:39 | <Hixie> | well if it says to reach an actual specific kind of element from a specific vocabulary, sure, but then that's not comparing element names |
| 00:39 | <Hixie> | it's comparing element type identity |
| 00:39 | <gsnedders> | Then we're also searching through it comparing token name to element name. |
| 00:40 | <aklein> | the algorithm says "If node is the target node, terminate in a match state." |
| 00:40 | <gsnedders> | What's the element's name? Where's is the term element name. |
| 00:40 | <gsnedders> | *term element name defined? |
| 00:40 | <Hixie> | i don't understand any of the last four lines :-) |
| 00:40 | <aklein> | so I think it's that "is the target node" check that's important here |
| 00:40 | <aklein> | Hixie: I'm looking at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/parsing.html#has-an-element-in-the-specific-scope |
| 00:41 | gsnedders | looks more closely at the spec |
| 00:41 | gsnedders | votes for adding this as a TC to html5lib regardless :) |
| 00:42 | <Hixie> | i guess it's weird that <svg><tbody><foreignobject></tbody> is different than <svg><tbody><foreignobject><div></tbody> |
| 00:42 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: The spec refers to "tag name" for element. This is undefined. |
| 00:42 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: How is that different? |
| 00:42 | <Hixie> | aklein: in gsnedders' test case, that doesn't come up |
| 00:42 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: </tbody> in the second check aborts at <foreignobject> |
| 00:42 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: so it gets ignored |
| 00:42 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Where does it abort? |
| 00:43 | <aklein> | Hixie: ah, it does in the MathML Text Integration Point cases I've been dealing with |
| 00:43 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: "in body" any other end tag, because foreignobject is special |
| 00:43 | <Hixie> | file bugs or send mail to the whatwg list |
| 00:43 | <Hixie> | i have to go |
| 00:44 | <aklein> | Hixie: will do |
| 00:45 | <gsnedders> | Is <svg><foreignobject><div> a parse error? |
| 00:46 | <gsnedders> | (Am I being stupid here, where does opening foreignobject do any magic?) |
| 00:47 | <gsnedders> | Oh, at the top of the Tree construction section. |
| 00:49 | <gsnedders> | aklein: CC me on bug/email, plz? |
| 00:54 | <gsnedders> | Oh, my TC hits a different case to what I thought it did! |
| 00:54 | <gsnedders> | Gah! |
| 00:57 | <aklein> | gsnedders: may take me a few days, I stumbled onto this quite by accident while working on something else |
| 00:57 | <gsnedders> | aklein: I'm unlikely to look at it any time at all soon :) |
| 00:58 | <aklein> | gsnedders: sounds like a plan :) |
| 00:58 | <gsnedders> | (currently at ~9k unread emails on whatwg :)) |
| 02:10 | <muyyatin> | What's the best way to submit a comment/bug about the Canvas HTML5 spec that isn't a 1-line description? In the inline "Submit Review Comment" part? |
| 02:36 | <zewt> | comments on the whatwg mailing list, bug -> w3 bug tracker, whatwg component (or the list) |
| 02:51 | <zewt> | why is every calculator since after XP garbage |
| 02:52 | <zewt> | i guess osx's is a bit less terrible than win7's, since it doesn't clear the value when you switch from "programmer" to "math" |
| 02:53 | <zewt> | converting 0xA0 from hex to decimal then dividing by 255 in win7's calc is an adventure |
| 02:54 | <muyyatin> | No clue, I generally switch out to Python for simple things like that, or Mathematica if I really need it. Haven't actually opened up the 'calculator' on this computer ever. |
| 02:54 | <jamesr> | zewt, http://lmgtfy.com/?q=0xa0+%2F+255 |
| 02:57 | <zewt> | osx's unicode mode is cute, if a bit weird in a calculator |
| 02:57 | <zewt> | xp's calc was pretty efficient, but it follows the usual software development pattern: once something is done well, the next few years of development are dedicated to ruining it |
| 03:38 | <zewt> | https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21134 there are like 10 of these bugs and am i the only one that thinks there's something fundamentally crazy going on |
| 03:38 | GPHemsley | keeps a graphic calculator on his desk |
| 03:39 | <GPHemsley> | s/graphic/graphing/ perhaps |
| 03:39 | <zewt> | i had one in a box from highschool, i think i tossed it at some point |
| 03:39 | <zewt> | ti-85 i think, heh |
| 03:40 | <zewt> | if i can't find software to do a better job than a piece of plastic from the mid-90s, i need to find a new line of work |
| 03:40 | <GPHemsley> | :) |
| 03:40 | <GPHemsley> | mine's a TI-83 Plus |
| 03:40 | <GPHemsley> | from circa 2003 |
| 03:40 | <GPHemsley> | so, yeah |
| 07:11 | <Hixie> | 1e3.1 => [1,3,1], [1000,1], [1, 3.1], [1259], something else ? |
| 07:13 | <annevk> | Hixie: defer to @sil |
| 07:13 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 07:13 | <Hixie> | i'll go with [1, 3.1] for now |
| 07:37 | <Hixie> | how do you do a js switch statement case label that matches a range of characters? |
| 07:37 | <Hixie> | e.g. 'a' .. 'z' ? |
| 07:37 | <Hixie> | i guess there's just no way to do that with switch |
| 07:37 | <Hixie> | oh well |
| 07:40 | <annevk> | if/else ftw |
| 07:41 | <annevk> | if only JavaScript had elif |
| 07:41 | <Hixie> | (perl and pascal can both do the switch on a range thing) |
| 07:42 | <Hixie> | (though in perl's case it's because it's switch statement is the most ridiculous over-engineered monstrosity ever) |
| 07:42 | <Hixie> | its |
| 07:42 | <Hixie> | what's special about elif? |
| 07:42 | <Hixie> | isn't that just a different way to spell else if? |
| 07:43 | <Hixie> | ok, my algorithm is complete |
| 07:43 | <Hixie> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/sorter/ |
| 07:43 | <annevk> | yeah, it makes the construct more readable I think |
| 07:43 | <Hixie> | just need to turn that into prose |
| 07:43 | <Hixie> | "elif" is more readable than "else if"? o_O |
| 07:44 | <annevk> | that's a lot of code |
| 07:44 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 07:44 | <Hixie> | it's not particularly optimised for anything |
| 07:46 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 07:47 | <annevk> | g'night! |
| 07:47 | <Hixie> | (if you come up with anything that the algorithm doesn't handle, other than hex and two-part version numbers, let me know) |
| 07:47 | <Hixie> | (anything that actually comes up in real tables, that is) |
| 09:16 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: jetty servers on w3c-test.org are running again |
| 09:16 | <MikeSmith> | so those tests should be able to connect |
| 09:28 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: Thanks |
| 09:36 | jgraham | verifies that IE passes all tests Microsoft released |
| 09:37 | <jgraham> | In related news: sky blue |
| 09:37 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 09:38 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Are you sure? Looks gray here. |
| 09:39 | <jgraham> | In related news: Weather in Scotland miserable |
| 09:44 | <MikeSmith> | >>The first Proposed Recommendation for XHTML 1.0 had to be sent back to the HTML Working Group because it defined different names for the <img> element depending on whether it appears in a "Strict", "Transitional", or "Frameset" document<< |
| 09:44 | <MikeSmith> | I don't understand what "defined different names for the <img> element" means |
| 09:44 | <MikeSmith> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2013Feb/0166.html |
| 09:45 | <darobin> | I think various XHTML products are the only ones ever to get kicked back at PR stage |
| 09:46 | <darobin> | mention kicking stuff at PR stage and SimonSapin show up |
| 09:46 | <darobin> | it's spooky |
| 09:47 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: Nor I, not even going all the way back to the oldest WD, through the first PR… |
| 09:47 | <SimonSapin> | Hi :) |
| 09:48 | <gsnedders> | SimonSapin: Have you been renaming stuff in XHTML 1.0 after first PR? |
| 09:48 | <SimonSapin> | gsnedders: I was not born yet |
| 09:49 | <Ms2ger`> | I find that hard to believe |
| 09:51 | <gsnedders> | Even /I/ was born then. |
| 09:51 | <Ms2ger`> | And you're what, 15 now? |
| 09:51 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger`: I'd be 15 in I was born the year before XHTML 1.0's first PR. |
| 09:51 | <gsnedders> | s/in/if/ |
| 09:52 | <Ms2ger`> | And were you? |
| 09:52 | <gsnedders> | No. |
| 09:53 | <gsnedders> | I was born seven years prior. |
| 09:53 | Ms2ger` | counts |
| 09:53 | <Ms2ger`> | 22? |
| 09:53 | <hsivonen> | I wish we had the locale-sensitive HTML parser behavior-affecting prefs in one file instead of being spead out across a zillion localization repos... |
| 09:53 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger`: 20, turn 21 in April. |
| 09:54 | <gsnedders> | 14+7 = 21. |
| 09:54 | <Ms2ger`> | Ah, prior to the RP |
| 09:54 | <Ms2ger`> | PR |
| 09:54 | <jgraham> | RIP? |
| 09:54 | <SimonSapin> | My previous sentence was not true. But I barely knew what a Working Group was when CSS 2.1 went to PR. |
| 09:54 | <Ms2ger`> | Which PR? ;) |
| 09:54 | <SimonSapin> | I think that darobin was talking about this: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-forum/2013JanMar/0056.html renaming Page Visibility |
| 09:55 | <SimonSapin> | the last one |
| 09:55 | <darobin> | SimonSapin: actually we were talking about another |
| 09:55 | <darobin> | <MikeSmith> >>The first Proposed Recommendation for XHTML 1.0 had to be sent back to the HTML Working Group because it defined different names for the <img> element depending on whether it appears in a "Strict", "Transitional", or "Frameset" document<< |
| 09:55 | <Ms2ger`> | http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1063663989&count=1 |
| 09:55 | <darobin> | and then you show up :) |
| 09:55 | <SimonSapin> | yeah, but I had nothing to do with XHTML |
| 09:56 | <hsivonen> | SimonSapin: not trolling at all in the first sentence of that ac-forum post. :-) |
| 09:56 | <darobin> | so you claim, sir |
| 09:57 | <SimonSapin> | hsivonen: I don’t know what you mean ;) |
| 09:57 | <darobin> | hsivonen: yeah, I thought the same — it's good to have trolling AC reps around |
| 09:58 | <Ms2ger`> | Sad that tobie isn't one anymore ;) |
| 09:58 | <odinho> | Yeah, who took over for fb? |
| 09:58 | <Ms2ger`> | Simon Stewart |
| 09:59 | <odinho> | Ms2ger`: okay thanks :-) |
| 10:04 | <annevk> | It's a good day today. I once again think I know everything I need to know to work out the fetch algorithm. |
| 10:05 | <jgraham> | Days when you are all set up for crushing disappointment are good days? |
| 10:09 | <annevk> | jgraham: I'm eager to learn |
| 10:10 | <annevk> | And if it all goes to shit it's still good as I'll meet beverloo at the bar tonight |
| 10:10 | <darobin> | the crowd goes wild |
| 10:10 | darobin | go annevk! go annevk! |
| 10:11 | <darobin> | annevk: are you covering non-GET in fetch as well? |
| 10:11 | <darobin> | (or planning to at some point) |
| 10:11 | <annevk> | darobin: it covers all HTTP requests basically |
| 10:11 | <annevk> | darobin: from whatever API endpoint |
| 10:11 | <annevk> | (conceptually, implementations are quite a mess still) |
| 10:11 | <darobin> | good, there are some interesting discrepancies with some methods |
| 10:32 | <annevk> | I wish Gmail had Opera Mail's "ignore thread" feature |
| 10:32 | <hasather> | annevk: http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=47787 |
| 10:34 | <annevk> | hasather: it seems that does not work for auto-archived messages? |
| 10:35 | <othermaciej> | ac-forum trolling? this I must see |
| 10:36 | <annevk> | hasather: Yeah, so www-archive is automatically archived already. What I want I suppose is to mark any new messages in certain threads as read if the thread is of no interest to me. |
| 10:40 | <SimonSapin> | http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/44133608152/the-most-interesting-man-in-the-world-is-shifting almost sounds like other discussions |
| 10:55 | <marcosc> | Is there some way in JS to get what the browser is sending as the "Accept-Language:" (without doing gymnastics)? |
| 10:58 | marcosc | puts on his gym outfit, and chalks up his hands, just in case |
| 10:59 | <annevk> | marcosc: you have to be more specific |
| 10:59 | <annevk> | marcosc: also, the answer is likely "no" |
| 10:59 | <marcosc> | yeah, I think I remember the answer being no |
| 11:05 | <darobin> | marcosc: it depends on what you mean by "gymnastics" |
| 11:05 | <darobin> | you can make a request to a header echo service |
| 11:06 | <darobin> | (sorry to hear about Joey man :( I hope things won't be too bad) |
| 11:08 | <marcosc> | darobin: gymnastics = basically pulling them from the server. Or somehow coercing them out of XHR, which doesn't seem possible. |
| 11:09 | <darobin> | yeah you can't do that |
| 11:09 | <darobin> | well |
| 11:09 | <darobin> | maybe you could with NavigationController :) |
| 11:09 | <marcosc> | darobin: thanks, re: Joey. He's a tough bastard... little cancer won't slow him down :) |
| 11:09 | <darobin> | but not yet for sure |
| 11:09 | <darobin> | yeah, keep going Joey! |
| 11:10 | <marcosc> | :) |
| 11:10 | <marcosc> | darobin: is there any rough draft of NavigatorController? |
| 11:11 | darobin | shakes fist at slightlyoff |
| 11:11 | <darobin> | slightlyoff: can you please add marcosc to the NavCon repo? Or make it public :) |
| 11:13 | <annevk> | slightlyoff is off |
| 11:13 | <annevk> | try again in seven days |
| 11:19 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I'd appreciate your review of https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Localizations_and_character_encodings |
| 11:21 | annevk | looks |
| 11:22 | <annevk> | hsivonen: it should establish context at the beginning a bit clearer, since some might mistakenly think this applies to localization files |
| 11:23 | <annevk> | hsivonen: well it does, but the title does not |
| 11:26 | <hsivonen> | annevk: what title would you suggest? |
| 11:27 | <annevk> | sorry, I tried to think of something better but couldn't |
| 11:28 | <annevk> | hsivonen: encoding names are not consistently cased |
| 11:28 | <annevk> | hsivonen: Encoding Standard is not linked |
| 11:28 | <annevk> | hsivonen: other than that looks good to me |
| 11:29 | <hsivonen> | annevk: reload for linkification |
| 11:29 | <hsivonen> | annevk: thanks |
| 11:30 | <hsivonen> | annevk: made casing Gecko-canonical |
| 11:31 | <annevk> | hsivonen: k, I wonder if we should introduce "display name" as a property of encodings that does the non-lowercase thing |
| 11:31 | <annevk> | (in the standard) |
| 11:31 | <annevk> | oh well, maybe some day |
| 11:54 | <SimonSapin> | Is U+00AD SOFT HYPHEN (SHY) the only character that suggests line breaks? |
| 12:00 | <annevk> | there's also a zero-width space of sorts |
| 12:00 | <annevk> | and prolly others, because you know, Unicode |
| 12:03 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr14/ (although I believe people have issues with this document) |
| 12:03 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: (but my recollection is from 3-7 years ago so that may have changed) |
| 12:11 | <SimonSapin> | We’re implementing http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-text/#hyphens in WeasyPrint |
| 12:11 | <SimonSapin> | (0.17 should be released today) |
| 13:02 | <annevk> | I think http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Fetch#Pseudo-code now reflects the new requirements. I guess next I should make the whole thing async. |
| 13:42 | <marcosc> | MikeSmith: when I go to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/ I don't see the [subscribe] option? |
| 13:42 | <MikeSmith> | hmm |
| 13:42 | <MikeSmith> | dunno why |
| 13:43 | <jgraham> | marcosc: Can't you take a hint? |
| 13:43 | MikeSmith | sends a not to sysreq |
| 13:44 | <marcosc> | jgraham: hehe |
| 13:52 | <annevk> | isn't the idea that you have to join the WG? |
| 13:52 | <annevk> | that way your patented inventions can only go in via one of the many side channels |
| 13:56 | <SimonSapin> | public-html: "DB-Backed : yes (40318 <https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318>)"; |
| 14:00 | <annevk> | also https://www.w3.org/services/list-audit/query?queryList=public-html |
| 14:01 | <MikeSmith> | it can be DB-backed and still open to self-subscribing I think |
| 14:01 | <MikeSmith> | I do know at least that anybody is free to post to it |
| 14:01 | <MikeSmith> | as long as they have gone through the archive-approval step at some point |
| 14:03 | <MikeSmith> | I wonder what auto_unsubscribe means |
| 14:03 | <MikeSmith> | what does or auto_subscribe |
| 14:03 | MikeSmith | asks on sysreq channel |
| 14:19 | <MikeSmith> | so yeah anybody can subscribe to public-html by sending "subscribe" to public-html-request⊙wo |
| 14:19 | <MikeSmith> | dunno why [subscribe] button isn't shown for it on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ |
| 14:41 | <annevk> | SteveF: it means you might have to wait several months for a reply |
| 14:41 | <annevk> | SteveF: sometimes longer, depending on backlog, etc. |
| 14:41 | <annevk> | SteveF: this is explained every now and then on the list by Hixie |
| 14:42 | <annevk> | SteveF: see e.g. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2013Feb/0121.html for the last such reminder |
| 14:45 | <SteveF> | annevk: OK I get that |
| 14:47 | <annevk> | SteveF: if someone is unclear on Twitter please just ask me here instead, going back and forth there is such a hassle |
| 14:47 | <annevk> | something* doh |
| 14:48 | <SteveF> | annevk: sure, wasn't asking for a reply on any particular time scale only noting that a fork of main was added to whatwg spec without any rationale/uses cases or support data provided |
| 14:48 | <annevk> | well presumably there was at least a commit message |
| 14:49 | <SteveF> | yeah it think it was 'matching reality' |
| 14:49 | <SteveF> | yeah it was |
| 14:53 | karlcow | suddenly wonders if he still subscribe to whatwg list… and I guess not. Since the opera address died. Doh! |
| 14:53 | <SteveF> | annevk: while not overly concerned as all the articles about the use of main reference the W3C spec and general sentiment is for use of W3C definition, it is still problematic we have 2 starkly contradictory definitions of it. |
| 14:54 | <annevk> | SteveF: I doubt it matters much in practice. Certainly not something I get excited about. |
| 14:55 | <annevk> | SteveF: Anyway, I don't work on HTML |
| 14:55 | <SteveF> | annevk: and use as per whawtg definition could undermine benefit to users, but yeah its not something that I am prepared to spend much time on. |
| 14:56 | <SteveF> | annevk: "Anyway, I don't work on HTML" good to know |
| 14:56 | karlcow | subscribed again. poetic reading/insanity is back |
| 14:57 | <annevk> | SteveF: well I suppose I do, but not the whole sectioning element rathole or other such debates |
| 14:57 | annevk | works on fetch |
| 14:58 | <SteveF> | yeah get your drift I work primarily on author advice and requirements aspect which is not the main game for implementers |
| 14:59 | <karlcow> | Is there a specified limit of HTTP redirects in browsers? |
| 15:01 | <karlcow> | 301/302/307/308 |
| 15:01 | <annevk> | karlcow: prolly lower than that |
| 15:01 | <karlcow> | hmm? ah… no no these are the HTTP code for redirect not the number of redirects. Sorry for the confusion |
| 15:02 | annevk | was joking |
| 15:02 | <MikeSmith> | 301/302/307/308 = 0.00001054072 |
| 15:02 | karlcow | has hard time with annevk jokes. I miss your smile. :D sorry again |
| 15:03 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: heh |
| 15:04 | <annevk> | CORS also lists 303 |
| 15:04 | <annevk> | fwiw |
| 15:04 | <karlcow> | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9384474/in-chrome-how-many-redirects-are-too-many#9384732 |
| 15:04 | <karlcow> | "Google Chrome 17.0.963.56 allows a maximum of 20 redirects" |
| 15:04 | <annevk> | And infinite loop precautions are not defined, but I've been thinking of adding that |
| 15:05 | <karlcow> | I wonder if Steve Souders has gathered data about this topic on what's done out there |
| 15:06 | karlcow | is sending an email to steve |
| 15:08 | <karlcow> | "Internet Explorer is 10" |
| 15:09 | <SimonSapin> | IE allows as many redirects as its version number? |
| 15:13 | <karlcow> | according to the stackoverflow it seems a bit weird |
| 15:13 | <karlcow> | "Only 10 redirects for IE 7 and 8, but 110 for IE 9 and 102 for IE 6. Also, IE 9 refreshes after every 10th redirect and IE 6 refreshes after the 100th. " |
| 15:39 | <karlcow> | http://www.techinasia.com/baidu-launches-developers-tools-in-english/ |
| 15:43 | <Ms2ger> | krijn_, down again? |
| 15:45 | <krijn_> | No! |
| 15:45 | <krijn_> | Am I/ |
| 15:47 | <Ms2ger> | http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/krijnhoetmer.nl/ says yes |
| 15:48 | <MikeSmith> | krijn_ needs to check http://amidownforeveryoneorjustme.com/ |
| 15:55 | <krijn_> | I'll let my mom know! |
| 15:55 | <krijn_> | Hrhr |
| 16:11 | <nimbu> | TERRIBLE JOKE krijn_ |
| 16:12 | <krijn_> | Not really |
| 16:12 | <krijn_> | That server is in her house |
| 16:12 | <nimbu> | lololol |
| 16:12 | nimbu | is ashamed |
| 16:13 | <Ms2ger> | I already told her, krijn_ |
| 16:13 | <nimbu> | HAHAHHAa |
| 16:16 | <jgraham> | ALL I CAN SEE ARE CAPS |
| 16:19 | <wilhelm> | krijn_: Oh, just a moment. I'll reboot it. |
| 16:19 | <krijn_> | wilhelm: the server? Or my mom? |
| 16:20 | <wilhelm> | The server! |
| 16:25 | <nimbu> | SORRY JGRAHAM |
| 16:25 | <nimbu> | MAYBE GOOGLE GLASS WILL HELP YOU WITH THAT |
| 16:30 | <annevk> | So there's one thing I still quite haven't figured out yet. What if I split up an algorithm in several subalgorithms in a specification but I want to share variables across them. |
| 16:31 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: bugzilla.validator.nu is in slowpoke mood today |
| 16:31 | <annevk> | Should I just pass the variables around all the time or is there some better style to accomplish that which does not confuse people? |
| 16:33 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: just make them properties of the window object |
| 16:33 | <MikeSmith> | then you don't have to pass them around |
| 16:33 | <MikeSmith> | problem solved |
| 16:33 | <marcosc> | heh |
| 16:33 | <marcosc> | annevk: I'm wondering the same thing too |
| 16:56 | <annevk> | :-( |
| 16:56 | <annevk> | http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p2-semantics-22#section-7.1.2 neither deals with multiple Location headers or the Location header value failing to parse |
| 17:03 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: I generally call the subalgorithms with those values as parameters |
| 17:14 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: 1e3.1 => [1000, 1]. Greedily consume the first number, and 1e3 is a number. |
| 18:28 | <karlcow> | annevk: I summarized what I know/understand of the issue. https://gist.github.com/karlcow/5050288 |
| 18:28 | <karlcow> | about "Location:" HTTP header |
| 18:42 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: the reason i didn't go with that is that 1e2e3e4 is definitely not 100 30000, it's 1 2 3 4 |
| 18:42 | <TabAtkins> | I'd actually expect that to become [100 3 4] |
| 18:43 | <TabAtkins> | That is, "1e2" gets consumed, then the next "e" gets interpreted as a separator. |
| 18:43 | <TabAtkins> | This is the same as the treatment of 1.2.3.4, right? |
| 18:43 | <TabAtkins> | Or do you special-case that kind of thing? |
| 18:43 | <Hixie> | 1.2.3.4 is 1 2 3 4 |
| 18:44 | <Hixie> | otherwise IPs fail |
| 18:44 | <TabAtkins> | Do you do that by looking after the number, and seeing if the . is the next character? |
| 18:44 | <TabAtkins> | If so, then treating "e" the same way is reasonable. |
| 18:44 | <Hixie> | the algorithm is basically done, you can take a look :-) (i forget the details, gonna prose it up later today) software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/sorter/ |
| 19:17 | <ronaldmansveld> | anyone here that has been working on CORS? |
| 19:18 | <Ms2ger> | annevk |
| 19:19 | <ronaldmansveld> | thnx, I'll just wait for him to come online then :) |
| 19:27 | <scott_gonzalez> | TabAtkins: What's the status of CSS Variables? Is it in flux or fairly stable? |
| 19:28 | <Ms2ger> | Not implemented, hence in flux |
| 19:32 | <scott_gonzalez> | Ms2ger: Do you know if there are any browsers planning to implement it soon? |
| 19:32 | <Ms2ger> | I'm not aware of any |
| 19:32 | <Ms2ger> | WebKit might, though |
| 19:34 | <scott_gonzalez> | I haven't been following this at all. Do you know if other browser vendors have showed interest in it long term? |
| 19:34 | <Ms2ger> | Long term, probably |
| 19:35 | <Ms2ger> | I don't follow closely, myself |
| 19:39 | <scott_gonzalez> | I've been waiting on this spec instead of using SASS/LESS/Stylus/whatever for jQuery UI. I'm at the point where I'm considering writing a parser for this in node... |
| 22:19 | <JonathanNeal> | Put this together, could be fun http://viewsource.in/whatwg.org#L11 |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | so y'all occasionally ask me to use fewer gotos and more structured constructs in my algorithms |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | how do i do a "while" loop in english prose without a goto? |
| 22:46 | <jamesr> | use a better programming language :P |
| 22:46 | <Hixie> | you mean stop writing a spec and just write a reference implementation instead? |
| 22:47 | <jgraham> | Hixie: "9. Repeat while x > 1: 9.1 (do something) 9.2 let x = x-1" |
| 22:48 | <Hixie> | that doesn't work |
| 22:48 | <jgraham> | http://www.ecma-international.org/ecma-262/5.1/#sec-10.6 for example |
| 22:48 | <Hixie> | in english, "while" evaluates continuously, not just at the top of the loop. |
| 22:48 | <Hixie> | (or at least, it is ambiguous whether it does or not) |
| 22:48 | <jamesr> | maybe invent a new word for hixie-en |
| 22:49 | <jgraham> | Well I have never had that problem when reading ECMAScript |
| 22:49 | <jgraham> | So I'm filing it under "not a real issue" |
| 22:49 | <jamesr> | i've used goto |
| 22:49 | <jamesr> | not sure what the problem with that is |
| 22:49 | <tomasf> | URl standard uses "4. While c is not the EOF code point, run these substeps: 1… 2… 3..." |
| 22:49 | <Hixie> | so 8. x = 0; 9. while x < 1: 9.1 print x; 9.2 increment x; 9.3 print x; would print 0, not 0, 1. |
| 22:49 | <tomasf> | *URL |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | jgraham: i've had to field feedback of that nature. |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | jgraham: in the few instances where i tried doing that. |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | jgraham: (in the ecma example you cite, the ambiguity doesn't matter because nothing happens after the decrement) |
| 22:52 | <jgraham> | Well I imagine you can set it up so that the same is true |
| 22:54 | <Hixie> | yeah but then months later i forget and make the change and the months later people are like "what did you mean here?" and i have to spend hours figuring it out again |
| 22:54 | <jgraham> | Well |
| 22:54 | <jgraham> | Assuming this is the sort order thing |
| 22:55 | <Hixie> | i just meant in general |
| 22:55 | <jgraham> | I am already quite scared that this is going to be insanely complex |
| 22:55 | <jgraham> | So in this case the answer might be "solve a simpler problem" |
| 22:57 | <Hixie> | well sure, but this is orthogonal to that :) |
| 22:57 | <jgraham> | Anyway, if you know that Repeat ... while constructs have to have a loop variable that's only updated at the end of the loop, you are quite unlikey to forget |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | what i'm likely to forget is that it's a repeat...while construct |
| 22:58 | <jgraham> | Even though it will say it right there? |
| 22:58 | <jgraham> | I mean, I guess I can't really argue with you here since you are the one that actually does this |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | typically the cases where this is a problem, and the cases where people complain about gotos as well, are cases where it's not "right there" because the algorithm is long |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | and therefore the implications of changes aren't always obvious |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | anyway i'm not trying to argue against different wording |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | just against using "while" |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | i'm looking for wording that isn't ambiguous yet doesn't get called a goto |
| 23:00 | <Hixie> | (i almost always actually write structured loops, they just aren't labeled as such) |
| 23:44 | <zewt> | Hixie: re your original question, one way is to say "repeat the following steps until instructed to terminate", then step 1 is "if condition is false, terminate" |
| 23:44 | <zewt> | instead of while(f) { ... }0, it becomes while(true) { if(!f) break; ... } |
| 23:46 | <zewt> | then the point the condition is checked clearly can't be interpreted as a continuous thing |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | yeah, that could work |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | good call |
| 23:55 | <Hixie> | maybe "repeatedly run" rather than "repeat" so that nobody tries to repeat each step or something |
| 23:56 | <zewt> | until someone walks up to them and demands that they terminate? :) |
| 23:57 | <zewt> | sometimes i do have the urge to just yell "stop that" |