| 00:00 | <zewt> | man, gmail is totally broken right now |
| 00:00 | <zewt> | every time i click a reply box, it scrolls up to the top of the mail i'm replying to |
| 00:31 | <zewt> | heh StreamBuilder: If there is enough data available to satisfy the amount requested in the read, return the amount specified. The data should be returned in the order the data was appended. |
| 00:31 | <zewt> | should :( |
| 00:56 | <Garbee> | zewt, gmail is working fine for me. |
| 01:00 | <zewt> | (fyi, not everyone sees the same gmail at the same time) |
| 01:01 | <Garbee> | Yea, but are you sure it isn't a plugin messing with it? |
| 01:01 | <zewt> | i was seeing it at work in chrome, and now at home in firefox; just smells like i've been stuck in a crappy bucket and I just have to wait for it to wear off |
| 01:06 | <Garbee_> | yea, hopefully it will go away in a little bit. |
| 01:06 | <Garbee_> | I'm stuck in Freenode hell right now myself. Maybe when I get online in the morning it will be fixed. |
| 01:22 | <jamesr> | is the CSS 'display' property defined as animatible currently? where is it defined (or at least its animatibility)? and how the heck do you spell that word? |
| 01:24 | <zewt> | no idea about the answer, except that it wouldn't seem to make sense (animate from inline to block?) |
| 01:25 | <jamesr> | well presumably it'd animate like any other discrete thing |
| 01:25 | <jamesr> | jump from one value to the other at some point |
| 01:26 | <zewt> | but it'd have to reflow, which means in theory every block on the page might have to animate somehow |
| 01:27 | <jamesr> | that's true of almost any property that can be targetted by an animation |
| 01:28 | <zewt> | not most properties i've animated, at least (topp/left in pos: absolute, opacity, transforms, etc) |
| 01:28 | <jamesr> | if you animate something to the side such that it causes a vertical scrollbar it'll reflow the world |
| 01:28 | <jamesr> | and that just happens suddenly at some point in the animation |
| 01:28 | <zewt> | sure, but that just reflows when you cross the boundary |
| 01:29 | <jamesr> | and this would reflow whenever the 'display' value changes to a new thing |
| 01:29 | <zewt> | if you're animating from block to inline, there's some kind of continuous change happening to everything affected by it |
| 01:29 | <jamesr> | no there isn't. look, if you don't know the answer feel free to just say you don't know |
| 01:29 | <zewt> | i guess i can't picture what "50% block 50% inline" would mean, visually |
| 01:29 | <zewt> | wow, no need to be a dick |
| 01:30 | <jamesr> | nothing wrong with that. i don't know where it is either |
| 01:30 | <zewt> | in case you didn't read, the very first thing I said is that I don't know the answer |
| 01:30 | <zewt> | ending conversation, too irritated |
| 01:34 | <zewt> | (sorry, overreacted a bit, but conversing about a question is an ordinary thing on irc) |
| 01:36 | <astearns> | jamesr: I think I can say that the animatability of 'display' is not currently defined anywhere. It's not defined in any of the places I'd expect the definition to be, anyway |
| 01:36 | <jamesr> | astearns, do you know where the 'display' property itself is defined? |
| 01:36 | <tantek> | CSS 2.1 |
| 01:37 | <jamesr> | ah, appendix F |
| 01:37 | <astearns> | jamesr: in CSS2.1 and the new level 3 Display module http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-display-3/ |
| 01:38 | <astearns> | but (TabAtkins) the new module says to look to the "individual properties" to see what's animatable, then those properties don't say if they are |
| 01:38 | <jamesr> | css transitions has an 'Animatable' section on each property, for instance |
| 01:38 | <jamesr> | so looks like the answer is css-display-3 needs to add this row to its tables of property definitions |
| 01:38 | <astearns> | yep |
| 01:39 | <jamesr> | it has "Animatable: see individual properties" for the "display" shorthand itself |
| 01:39 | <jamesr> | it'll get there, i suppose |
| 01:39 | <astearns> | I expect display-box would not be animatable. Not sure about the rest |
| 01:45 | <JonathanNeal> | Where is the part of the spec that talks about how to validate an element name or a classname? |
| 02:20 | <esprehn> | zewt: I thought we weren't doing StreamBuilder yet |
| 02:20 | <esprehn> | or rather, that we were going to replace it with new Stream() like BlobBuilder I'd hope |
| 02:21 | <zewt> | esprehn: no idea; all I know about Streams is reading the spec |
| 02:22 | <esprehn> | ah |
| 02:22 | <zewt> | BlobBuilder is dead (or legacy), right? replace by new Blob() |
| 02:22 | <zewt> | replaced |
| 02:22 | <zewt> | (however it's constructed I wouldn't expect it to affect those issues, though) |
| 02:23 | <zewt> | Steam, I mean |
| 02:24 | <zewt> | ... Stream (accursed laptop) |
| 02:28 | <moo-_-> | zewt: yes |
| 02:29 | <moo-_-> | dead like a doornail |
| 02:32 | <zewt> | doing "new Stream" would want to be a subclass of Stream, since you wouldn't want system-provided Streams to also have the StreamBuilder API, but other than that, makes sense |
| 02:32 | <zewt> | (though less of a win, since you still end up with two classes) |
| 03:14 | <esprehn> | zewt: new WhateverSystemStream I guess, or Stream.create(...) might be okay. The builder stuff is full of sadness |
| 03:30 | <zewt> | esprehn: more concerned about the brittle interop smell of script-sourced streams as a concept |
| 03:30 | <zewt> | sounds like something that's tempting and sounds useful but might bite everyone in the ass badly long-term |
| 06:01 | <nessy> | Hixie: yt? |
| 06:54 | <JonathanNeal> | TabAtkins: did you write your js css parser using a tool, or just straight up in js? |
| 09:58 | <JonathanNeal> | any string parsers up? |
| 10:14 | <SimonSapin> | JonathanNeal: not sure what you mean by string parser, but I’m pretty sure this one https://github.com/tabatkins/css-parser is written manually based on the algorithms in the spec |
| 10:14 | <SimonSapin> | IIRC it’s even a goal to be very close to the spec |
| 10:15 | <JonathanNeal> | Trying to parse "{0 {1 {2 {3} 2} 1} 0} {0 {1 {2 {3} 2} 1} 0}" into a hierarchy. |
| 10:17 | <SimonSapin> | JonathanNeal: if you’re okay with CSS tokens I suppose you could use css-parser and repeatedly call consumeAPrimitive() |
| 10:18 | <jgraham> | JonathanNeal: Hmm, are you actually trying to parse CSS or some custom thing? |
| 10:19 | <SimonSapin> | but writing recursive decent parsers for simple languages is not too hard |
| 10:19 | <JonathanNeal> | some custom thing :) plus i've always wanted to better understand parsers. |
| 10:21 | <jgraham> | Well that specific thing doesn't look too hard |
| 10:23 | <jgraham> | I mean there are only 3 tokens and no need for lookahead |
| 10:26 | <zcorpan> | i don't understand why this fails. :-( http://w3c-test.org/webapps/WebSockets/tests/submissions/Opera/interfaces/WebSocket/close/005.html i don't spot any difference from the old test which passes |
| 10:28 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: Which assert fails? |
| 10:28 | <zcorpan> | the first in the onclose hanlder |
| 10:29 | <JonathanNeal> | jgraham: like this? http://codepen.io/jonneal/pen/hHIzF |
| 10:30 | <Ms2ger> | zcorpan, the readyState one? |
| 10:31 | <zcorpan> | Ms2ger: yes |
| 10:31 | <Ms2ger> | Passes on Fx, it seems |
| 10:31 | <zcorpan> | huh, fails for me in firefox |
| 10:31 | <Ms2ger> | But I get assert_equals: expected 3 but got 0 |
| 10:32 | <Ms2ger> | So, passes is a big word :) |
| 10:32 | <Ms2ger> | And, uh, timeouts :/ |
| 10:33 | <zcorpan> | yeah, i guess the timeout can be reduced a lot |
| 10:38 | <zcorpan> | ah! s/step/step_func/ makes it pass |
| 10:38 | <zcorpan> | so subtle |
| 10:39 | <jgraham> | Horray for weak typing? |
| 10:41 | <jgraham> | (if you can think of any way I can make it easier to avoid that error please say) |
| 10:46 | <zcorpan> | i guess i would have noticed it sooner if i stepped through the script in a debugger |
| 10:48 | <zcorpan> | or make step() return a function that gives a warning somewhere |
| 10:56 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: i'll implement the warning thing |
| 10:59 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-html-longdesc-20130312/ |
| 10:59 | <annevk> | I always thought it was McCathieNeville |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | one l |
| 11:02 | <SteveF> | annevk: I am now retiring my accessibility work is done! |
| 11:02 | <annevk> | no man, need longdesc for <main> |
| 11:03 | <SteveF> | oops yeah back to work... |
| 11:04 | <SteveF> | am secretly working on longdesc for longdesc but its a secret |
| 11:04 | <annevk> | I heard rumors about <img extralongdesc=""> for people that are beyond blind |
| 11:06 | <SteveF> | am no longdesc lover, but am pleased the draft has been published so I don't have to think about it anymore |
| 11:07 | <SteveF> | though I am a lover and do have a long desk |
| 11:08 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: hmm. step() can throw, which makes it a bit hard to make it return a warning function |
| 11:10 | <SteveF> | photo of my long desk https://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/status/309984608001343488 |
| 11:10 | <zcorpan> | that is kinda a showstopper. can't think of a way around it |
| 11:10 | zcorpan | drop it |
| 11:11 | <zcorpan> | +s |
| 11:12 | <marcosc> | annevk: in XHR, when an event is fired on "onerror", it passes a ProgressEvent. I'm not clear how one gets at the actual "error"? I was expecting some kind of error object to be available. |
| 11:13 | <annevk> | marcosc: there's no such thing |
| 11:14 | <marcosc> | annevk: sure, but I was kinda hoping for a http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-domexception-network_err |
| 11:14 | <annevk> | marcosc: it's equivalent |
| 11:14 | <annevk> | error event is the async version of that |
| 11:15 | <marcosc> | ok, what I was after was the details of why it failed. I wanted to display those details or try to do something with them. |
| 11:16 | <annevk> | right, there's no such thing |
| 11:17 | <marcosc> | Maybe something for XHR level 3? :) |
| 11:17 | <zcorpan> | marcosc: exposing to web content why a network request failed is generally considered a security issue |
| 11:17 | <annevk> | Fetch exposes 1) end-user abort, 2) network error, 3) redirect (sometimes), 4) everything else |
| 11:17 | <annevk> | marcosc: there's no levels anymore |
| 11:17 | <annevk> | marcosc: and what zcorpan said |
| 11:17 | <marcosc> | ok, makes sense. Just wanted to check the rationale |
| 11:24 | <zcorpan> | marcosc: related: hybi tried to expose error reason but that just led to the API spec overriding it http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/network.html#closeWebSocket |
| 11:25 | <marcosc> | zcorpan: thanks! |
| 11:25 | <zcorpan> | which happened instead of just fixing the protocol spec because people who understand web security had got fed up and stopped paying attention to hybi |
| 11:28 | <marcosc> | ok, one more dumb question: when I try to fetch the following URL (http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/NOTE-acdi-20030901), it returns a 301, which causes XHR to throw the error. My understanding is that XHR should do the redirect. What am I missing? |
| 11:28 | <darobin> | did you set any specific headers? |
| 11:29 | <marcosc> | darobin: no |
| 11:30 | <marcosc> | it craps out with http://marcoscaceres.github.com/bib_entry_maker/ |
| 11:30 | <annevk> | marcosc: does the redirect have CORS headers supplied? |
| 11:30 | marcosc | looks at darobin :) |
| 11:30 | <annevk> | marcosc: I think you're hitting that |
| 11:31 | <darobin> | hey you can use curl just as well as I! |
| 11:31 | <darobin> | indeed, that's the bug |
| 11:31 | <darobin> | I'll alert systeam |
| 11:31 | <marcosc> | thanks darobin :) |
| 11:33 | <marcosc> | darobin: fwiw, I think some of the really really old specs (pre 2000) also have some CORS issues. |
| 11:34 | <Ms2ger> | I think that's the least of their issues |
| 11:34 | <marcosc> | heh |
| 11:35 | <darobin> | marcosc: that might be possible |
| 11:35 | <darobin> | I don't know when the current system was set up — there's weird stuff in the oldies |
| 11:36 | <marcosc> | yeah, they must be on another server or something |
| 11:36 | <darobin> | like this http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210 |
| 11:36 | <marcosc> | oh man! I'm so gonna start using that BG! |
| 11:36 | <darobin> | that one's under CORS alright |
| 11:36 | <darobin> | it was all the rage back then |
| 11:37 | <darobin> | it makes the specs so readable |
| 11:37 | <marcosc> | it's like I'm reading paper |
| 11:37 | <Ms2ger> | The PNG spec has it too |
| 11:37 | <darobin> | http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS1-961217 |
| 11:37 | <marcosc> | I even reached out to my screen only to realise that it was not a real thing |
| 11:38 | <darobin> | I have fond memories of spending a lot of time with http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS1-961217#appendix-b as my first serious computer hacking project :) |
| 11:38 | <marcosc> | and red links FTW! |
| 11:38 | <darobin> | I think I still have that background imprinted in my retina |
| 11:38 | <marcosc> | heh |
| 11:38 | <darobin> | gotta love statements like "The grammar below is LL(1) (but note that most UA's should not use it directly, since it doesn't express the parsing conventions, only the CSS1 syntax)." |
| 11:39 | <marcosc> | :) |
| 11:39 | <Ms2ger> | "Spec? What spec?" |
| 11:41 | <annevk> | "We drank too much to figure out the details, but you know, we had a good time and we think this'll improve the web quite a bit." |
| 11:41 | <darobin_> | "If you want to know the parsing conventions we're talking about, no problem, just drop by for a beer" is how I read it |
| 11:42 | <annevk> | Which they did, which is why we ended up reverse engineering IE, which was a lot less fun. |
| 11:43 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, btw, still waiting for you to move the tests repo |
| 11:44 | <darobin> | ah yes, I could do that :) |
| 11:44 | <darobin> | annevk: we should've accepted that beeer |
| 11:44 | <marcosc> | Ok... now I need to somehow convince the IETF to enable CORS |
| 11:45 | <annevk> | hahaha |
| 11:45 | <annevk> | too early for jokes man |
| 11:47 | <darobin> | marcosc: you might mention something about using HTML while you're there |
| 11:47 | <darobin> | oh, and UTF8 |
| 11:47 | <marcosc> | lets not go crazy |
| 11:47 | <darobin> | marcosc: see Twitter |
| 11:48 | <darobin> | IMHO your best shot at it |
| 11:48 | <marcosc> | heh |
| 11:48 | <darobin> | marcosc: I'll let you reply to Mark |
| 11:49 | <marcosc> | ok, thanks |
| 11:49 | <marcosc> | Once he sees the awesome biblio entry maker, he will make it happen |
| 12:02 | <annevk> | so Stream |
| 12:03 | <annevk> | what was the reason to have a separate reader object for file? |
| 12:07 | <annevk> | I hope somebody knows |
| 12:09 | <hsivonen> | lovely charset stuff: https://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/src/nsXMLHttpRequest.cpp#2661 |
| 12:11 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 12:11 | <annevk> | so the spec asks for lowercasing at the moment I Think |
| 12:11 | <annevk> | man |
| 12:27 | <jgraham> | darobin: You know that thing about "don't use this grammar" is still in 2.1, right? |
| 12:31 | <darobin> | jgraham: yeah but I prefer the original source, it has more style |
| 12:39 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: OK i've gone through all the websocket tests now and fixed things i noticed were wrong |
| 12:39 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: should i let someone know? |
| 12:41 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: public-webapps-testsuite |
| 12:41 | <jgraham> | Reply to the last mail I sent there, I guess |
| 12:41 | <zcorpan> | i found an old thread, yeah |
| 12:42 | <zcorpan> | it's kinda funny that people complained about the proposed timeline |
| 12:42 | <jgraham> | http://www.w3.org/mid/512F18DB.3010503⊙oc is the message to reply to infact |
| 12:43 | <zcorpan> | hmm, i guess i'm not subscribed, can't find that in my inbox |
| 12:44 | <jgraham> | Subscribe and download the archive files? |
| 12:44 | <zcorpan> | seems like bad use of my time :-) i'll just reply to another message and link to the above |
| 12:45 | <zcorpan> | and subscribe |
| 12:45 | <jgraham> | Fair enough :) |
| 12:47 | <jgraham> | Would be kind of useful if mail clients let you set the In-Reply-To header |
| 12:47 | <jgraham> | (well I guess some do) |
| 12:47 | <darobin> | some clients allow you to show arbitrary headers |
| 12:47 | <darobin> | even Mail.app supports that |
| 12:47 | <darobin> | the problem is usually getting them to show it in a useful way |
| 12:51 | <jgraham> | I mean set when you compose. |
| 12:51 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: what's next? postMessage? |
| 12:52 | <jgraham> | Possibly register*Handler since that seemed to be almost good to go. But certainly postMessage is the other option |
| 12:53 | <zcorpan> | i don't see postMessage in my critic dashboard. but register*Handler is there |
| 12:53 | <jgraham> | Right, there isn't a review for postMessage |
| 12:53 | <jgraham> | I could create one I guess |
| 12:54 | <zcorpan> | ah, ok |
| 12:55 | <hsivonen> | annevk: so the File API allows the caller to pass an encoding |
| 12:55 | <hsivonen> | annevk: and currently, Firefox throws if the encoding is bogus |
| 12:56 | <hsivonen> | annevk: if the BOM overrides, what should happen when there is a BOM and bogus encoding argument? |
| 12:56 | <hsivonen> | should the BOM just take precedence |
| 12:56 | <hsivonen> | or should the bogosity of the argument be checked first? |
| 12:57 | hsivonen | is quite unhappy that Firefox's File API impl asks the magic 8-ball for charset instead of doing what the spec says and just falling back to UTF-8 |
| 12:58 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: Created a review for those tests |
| 13:00 | <annevk> | hsivonen: see my email to public-webapps |
| 13:02 | <hsivonen> | annevk: File API review? |
| 13:02 | <annevk> | hsivonen: yeah, I told sicking that would be a BAD IDEA® |
| 13:03 | <annevk> | hsivonen: yeah, end of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JanMar/0707.html |
| 13:04 | <hsivonen> | annevk: ok, so throw first |
| 13:04 | <hsivonen> | annevk: afaict, WebKit does not throw |
| 13:04 | <hsivonen> | and doesn't sniff for BOM, either |
| 13:04 | <annevk> | hsivonen: yeah, the current spec does not say to throw |
| 13:05 | <annevk> | hsivonen: not looking for the BOM seems like a bug per current spec |
| 13:06 | <annevk> | hsivonen: I don't care strongly about the throwing I suppose, although it would be consistent with TextDecoder as I noted in my email |
| 13:08 | <hsivonen> | annevk: OK. I'll keep throwing in my patch |
| 13:31 | <annevk> | Btw, http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-html-longdesc-20130312/#widl-Element-longdesc is bogus, but I'm not sure if anyone cares... |
| 13:31 | <hsivonen> | annevk: wait, when did you tell sicking that using chardet was a bad idea? |
| 13:32 | <SteveF> | annevk: have pinged chaals |
| 13:33 | <annevk> | hsivonen: dunno, seems it might have been four years ago now? |
| 13:33 | <hsivonen> | annevk: whoa. so before review and that stuff still landed? |
| 13:35 | <jgraham> | If only the spec had a testsuite and people felt bad about failing it |
| 13:37 | <annevk> | hsivonen: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009AprJun/1105.html is my earliest feedback |
| 13:38 | <annevk> | hsivonen: can't actually find where I said that "doing detection" would be bad because it's not interoperable |
| 13:53 | <annevk> | darobin: seems your b-day coincides with red nose day |
| 13:54 | <darobin> | annevk: that's, errm |
| 13:54 | <annevk> | apt? |
| 13:54 | <darobin> | I guess! |
| 13:55 | <darobin> | I think it'll be at the Royal Oak in Bethnal Green |
| 13:55 | <darobin> | (to be confirmed though) |
| 13:57 | <annevk> | that's a bit out of the way, but should be okay |
| 14:03 | <darobin> | Bethnal Green rocks :) |
| 14:03 | <hsivonen> | not only does File API use the detector, but it uses the detector through the wrong API... |
| 14:04 | <jgraham> | darobin comes all the way from France, and you think that going < 10 tube stops is "a bit out of the way"? |
| 14:04 | <annevk> | it's like 40min according to Google Maps, though I might be able to avoid the tube by taking a bus |
| 14:05 | <jgraham> | (that probably needed a smilie) |
| 14:05 | <darobin> | jgraham: in .nl, ten tube stops takes you to Belgium, give him some time to adapt |
| 14:05 | <annevk> | I could also walk, which it estimates at 1:07 which is not all bad |
| 14:05 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: do you dislike the tube that much? |
| 14:06 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: no, the tube connection to there is just bad |
| 14:06 | <jgraham> | (seems like bethnal green tube station is <20 minutes by tube from Leicester Square, which is near Moz. at least, iirc) |
| 14:07 | <annevk> | (the pub is not next to that station) |
| 14:09 | <jgraham> | No |
| 14:09 | <jgraham> | It's not next to *any* station |
| 14:15 | <annevk> | but it is next to a bus stop :) |
| 14:16 | <annevk> | We should maybe put something here about architecture otherwise management might think we're slacking off, solely discussing London's public transport for a b-day party next Friday (not even today!)... |
| 14:20 | <jgraham> | I hate MySQL |
| 14:21 | <jgraham> | I think that has me covered |
| 14:22 | <annevk> | <css/> |
| 14:22 | <zewt> | heh |
| 14:23 | <zewt> | mysql pretty much seems like what novices pick because nobody told them about postgres |
| 14:23 | <jgraham> | In this case that might well be true |
| 14:23 | <jgraham> | (actually it might well be Hixie that picked MySQL back in the dawn of time) |
| 14:24 | <jgraham> | (I'm not sure) |
| 14:25 | <zewt> | "lamp" is probably the single worst open-source quasi-marketing fad there was |
| 14:26 | <zewt> | "hey everyone! you should use these three bad technologies so you fit the acronym" |
| 14:26 | <jgraham> | Is apache "bad" |
| 14:26 | <jgraham> | ? |
| 14:27 | <jgraham> | (ngix might be better, but it didn't exist at the time) |
| 14:27 | <zewt> | well, it's not so good that it should be used without evaluation, at least |
| 14:28 | <zewt> | i think it's more the "stop thinking and just use this set of things"-ishness of it all that i found unpleasant |
| 14:28 | <jgraham> | So, if anyone does know why MySQL allows you to override the charset and the collation on a per-connection basis, and how I fix the collation to be utf8_bin, that would be helpful |
| 14:29 | <zewt> | dear gmail: stop logging me out while i'm writing mail. thanks |
| 14:29 | <jgraham> | (Well I can do SET NAMES ...) but I don't know how that interacts with sqlalchemy, exactly |
| 14:29 | <annevk> | jgraham: maybe matjas? |
| 14:29 | <annevk> | dunno if he's online |
| 14:37 | <darobin> | fwiw when LAMP was minted it was descriptive of a practice, not an attempt to prescribe or sell it |
| 14:39 | <jgraham> | "The description in the following sections may appear complex, but it has been found in practice that multiple-level defaulting leads to natural and obvious results." |
| 14:39 | <zewt> | giggle |
| 14:40 | <jgraham> | I believe that is the "I'm high as a kite" moment |
| 14:41 | <zewt> | tip to anyone running a business: if the user email thing you use calls itself "constant contact", you're a spammer |
| 14:43 | <matjas> | jgraham: check the mysql.conf settings in this post http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/mysql-utf8mb4 |
| 14:43 | <matjas> | err, /etc/my.cnf |
| 14:43 | <matjas> | jgraham: also, why utf8_bin and not utf8mb4_bin? |
| 14:44 | <jgraham> | matjas: Don't tell me, I can guess this one, utf8 doesn't actually let you store all of unicode? |
| 14:44 | <matjas> | jgraham: you guessed it. |
| 14:44 | <matjas> | MySQL’s `utf8` is a lie |
| 14:45 | <jgraham> | OK, I was wrong |
| 14:45 | <jgraham> | The "high as a kite" moment came long before they got to the documentation |
| 14:48 | <gavinc> | yeah, but utf8mb4 means that all the things you think about how big indexs are and how long the built in types are, are wrong :( |
| 14:49 | <gavinc> | a number of places that say "characters" mean, sets of bytes / 3, not bytes / 4 |
| 14:50 | jgraham | would be happy if all the things he thought about how equality works were right |
| 14:50 | <annevk> | Oh yes, we have a NES at the office! |
| 14:52 | <zewt> | sad when I make a big list of what seem to me like horrifying complex interop nightmares, and the reply ignores them all and just goes "but it's easier to implement" |
| 14:56 | <zcorpan> | {if(themALL.code = DOMException.SECURITY_ERR) |
| 14:56 | <zcorpan> | {e++} |
| 14:57 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: it seems safe to assume that the above was meant to be ==, right? |
| 14:58 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: Yeah |
| 15:18 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: (I'm sure it meant to be === :) |
| 15:18 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: i made it == :-P |
| 15:19 | <zcorpan> | ok i'll call it a day now. will finish my batch of converting URLs to be server-agnostic and commit that on monday |
| 15:20 | <zcorpan> | have a nice weekend |
| 15:20 | <jgraham> | You too |
| 15:21 | <zcorpan> | it doesn't start all too well. i blame brucel for that... |
| 15:22 | <zcorpan> | i hope i have recovered on monday at least |
| 15:22 | <zcorpan> | anyway |
| 16:07 | <annevk> | zewt: fwiw, I agree with sicking et al that passing of Stream from XHR is weird |
| 16:08 | <annevk> | zewt: and counter to the model |
| 16:08 | <zewt> | i think the "xhr keeps running" thing is completely batshit insane |
| 16:08 | <zewt> | and that returning the stream fits the model--start request, something happens, onload fires when the result is available--quite well |
| 16:09 | <annevk> | no, the model is that you wait for the complete response, including its entity body, or just wait forever if that happens to load forever |
| 16:09 | <zewt> | nothing about the xhr api implies that |
| 16:09 | <annevk> | stream is just another way to expose the resonse entity body |
| 16:10 | <annevk> | response* |
| 16:10 | <annevk> | XHR controls the entire request/response, everything implies that |
| 16:11 | <zewt> | nothing i can see :) |
| 16:11 | <zewt> | and i think that's a minute concern anyway, compared to all the issues with doing it that way |
| 16:12 | <zewt> | every time i think about it, whole new issues come to mind |
| 16:12 | <jgraham> | It does seem pretty odd to have an XHR that will never fire onload |
| 16:13 | <jgraham> | But doesn't have an error |
| 16:13 | <annevk> | zewt: I don't think there's that many issues to be honest |
| 16:14 | <annevk> | jgraham: it will fire onload once the connection closes |
| 16:14 | <jgraham> | "yay" |
| 16:14 | <jgraham> | I mean, that seems rather useless |
| 16:14 | <zewt> | i've listed quite a number, so by all means reply to a few :) |
| 16:14 | <zewt> | (on the list, can't get into that much detail right now) |
| 16:15 | <annevk> | zewt: the event ordering thing is just getting all the task sources right, sync xhr and streams seems pointless, ... |
| 16:15 | <jgraham> | It is pretty clear in general that people want a way to hook into "this data is usable now" |
| 16:15 | <zewt> | sync xhr and streams isn't useless at all; let me open a synchronous request in a worker and parse the result as it comes in |
| 16:15 | <annevk> | jgraham: ah yeah, we should maybe have an event for when the headers are in / first bit of entity body is in |
| 16:17 | <jgraham> | Why wouldn't we call that event "load"? |
| 16:17 | <annevk> | zewt: since the parsing is async anyway it doesn't have to be loaded sync |
| 16:17 | <annevk> | jgraham: because load means the entity body is in |
| 16:17 | <zewt> | sorry, don't understand that |
| 16:17 | <annevk> | k |
| 16:17 | <jgraham> | annevk: That's a very low-level view |
| 16:17 | <zewt> | for example, if you wanted to implement something EventSource-like in a worker |
| 16:18 | <jgraham> | To put it differently, what's the use case for load being after the stream is closed? |
| 16:19 | <zewt> | given a synchronous version of StreamReader (there isn't one yet, but that's a separate problem), you'd just run a sync XHR to create the Stream, then use StreamReader to synchronously read data as it comes in--this seems very useful |
| 16:25 | <annevk> | jgraham: tick the progress bar |
| 16:25 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, yt? |
| 16:26 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: For a few seconds |
| 16:26 | <jgraham> | annevk: Don't really see how that's a use case for load-after-close |
| 16:26 | <jgraham> | Could be a use case for a close event on the stream |
| 16:26 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, do you know what the has_assertions() is for in the testharness.js results table code? |
| 16:27 | <zewt> | jgraham: well, i wouldn't necessarily say that we need use cases for side-effects of design |
| 16:27 | <annevk> | jgraham: euhm, the stream is somewhat distinct from network transfer |
| 16:27 | <annevk> | jgraham: you wouldn't want your progress bar implementation to have to hook into different objects |
| 16:29 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Not obviously. I am thinking that git blame will point at Aryeh. I will look more at home in a bit |
| 16:29 | <Ms2ger> | Mm |
| 16:29 | Ms2ger | looks |
| 16:30 | <Ms2ger> | Huh, no, to Peter |
| 16:30 | <jgraham> | Right, I was just thinking |
| 16:31 | <jgraham> | This is probably to do with the stuff for extracting metadata from the test file |
| 16:31 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, that kind of assertions |
| 16:31 | <Ms2ger> | Meh |
| 16:31 | <jgraham> | You can do something like test(function(){}, name, {assert:"Somethihng from a spec"}) |
| 16:31 | <jgraham> | Yeah, quite confusing |
| 16:32 | <jgraham> | Shouldn't have let that through code review I think, but oh well |
| 16:41 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, btw, is the result table the only user of the templating code? |
| 17:08 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 17:09 | <annevk> | good afternoon dglazkov |
| 17:11 | <annevk> | pushed an update to http://html5.org/temp/fetch.html btw; now maps Hixie-stuff to annevk-stuff |
| 17:13 | <annevk> | Hixie: fwiw, I can probably change it back completely, but I think that once we unravel the various request/response things for offline we're going to end up with the kind of request/response model this thing outlines so I'd rather just go there... |
| 17:13 | <slightlyoff> | annevk: I owe you a read-through of that |
| 17:13 | <slightlyoff> | annevk: would love seeing it in pseudo-code instead of prose, though = ( |
| 17:14 | <annevk> | slightlyoff: there's http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Fetch#Pseudo-code though it's not entirely accurate anymore |
| 17:14 | <annevk> | slightlyoff: but it gives a high-level overview that's somewhat accurate and illustrates some of the weirdness |
| 17:14 | <slightlyoff> | aha! thanks. |
| 17:15 | <slightlyoff> | I enjoy that this is Python...the language of the web! ;-) |
| 17:16 | <annevk> | I find Python more writable and readable than JavaScript and since I don't have to run it anywhere... |
| 17:17 | <Ms2ger> | We all hate JS here |
| 17:17 | <Ms2ger> | That's why we work on the DOM :) |
| 17:18 | <dglazkov> | I don't hate JS |
| 17:18 | <annevk> | Right, the DOM will supplant JavaScript eventually :p |
| 17:18 | <dglazkov> | I try not to hate anything |
| 17:19 | <annevk> | dglazkov: you're not following the channel rules |
| 17:20 | <annevk> | (there are none, but you also do and do not have to leave your sense of logic at the door) |
| 17:21 | <slightlyoff> | Ms2ger: it shows? ;-) |
| 17:22 | <tobie> | slightlyoff: :( |
| 17:23 | <annevk> | I usually don't design APIs, but when I do, it shows. |
| 17:23 | <slightlyoff> | hah |
| 17:23 | <slightlyoff> | = ) |
| 17:23 | <annevk> | Seriously though, I'm mostly documenting a mess created ten years ago, plus CORS, which is only partly my fault. |
| 17:28 | <MikeSmith> | vindication http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps-testsuite/2013Mar/0015.html Indeed something wonky in MS Redmond network that was causing websocket test failures |
| 17:29 | <MikeSmith> | advantage jgraham |
| 17:30 | <karlcow> | Oh pseudo-code I can read! http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Fetch#Pseudo-code ♥ annevk |
| 17:31 | <annevk> | Maybe we should just write specs in Python/JavaScript rather than English |
| 17:31 | <karlcow> | \o/ |
| 17:31 | <annevk> | <- not serious |
| 17:31 | <Ms2ger> | Why not brainfuck? |
| 17:32 | karlcow | proposes pseudo-Haiku for minimalism |
| 17:33 | <annevk> | Why not Zoidberg? |
| 17:33 | <Ms2ger> | Because he's not a programming language |
| 17:38 | <MikeSmith> | in programming languages were people, INTERCAL would be me |
| 17:39 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Yes |
| 17:43 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: So what to do about the websockets thing? Do you actually see the websockets requests for the Microsoft IPs? |
| 17:45 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Well actually |
| 17:45 | <jgraham> | I don't know about the testharnessreport.js that plinss wrote |
| 17:46 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: didn't check yet. I am considering to not do any further troubleshooting of their effed up network for them until they pay me for the invoice I submitted to them for the time I already spent. Which to be fair was probably less than 1 hour total, but I bill at Oracle DBA rates. |
| 17:46 | <Ms2ger> | Doesn't look like it |
| 17:47 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: seriously I plan to do nothing except to support moving them into approved |
| 17:47 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: heh |
| 17:48 | <jgraham> | Anyway, my suspicion is that it is indeed something on the Microsoft network that's causing the problem |
| 17:48 | <MikeSmith> | yup |
| 17:48 | <jgraham> | But it looks like Ken believes that the W3C might be treating requests from Microsoft differently |
| 17:49 | <jgraham> | So it would be good to rule that out |
| 18:06 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: if W3C is treating requests from MS differently it would be because our network defenses are doing it for a good reason |
| 18:07 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., them having some tools that end up making abusive amounts of DTD requests |
| 18:07 | <MikeSmith> | DTD DDoS |
| 18:09 | <jgraham> | Well yeah, it could be |
| 18:09 | <MikeSmith> | actually now that I say that I recall that have in fact already had some specific problems with MS and W3C network that I never heard any resolution about it |
| 18:09 | <jgraham> | I don't really see why rate limiting would cause this type of problem though |
| 18:10 | <MikeSmith> | yeah it was not a simple rate limiting problem |
| 18:10 | <MikeSmith> | I think it may not have even been the W3C network specifically but instead som MIT network defenses |
| 18:11 | <jgraham> | Interesting |
| 18:12 | <jgraham> | I wonder why it would affect websockets in particular |
| 18:12 | <jgraham> | (also, the irony of Microsoft not being able to access tests on a server that they paid for is not lost on me) |
| 18:12 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 18:22 | <Hixie> | christ, the w3c continues its "stable" nonsense |
| 18:26 | <marcosc> | :) |
| 18:26 | <marcosc> | speaking of which, we are remaking the famous red bar at the bottom of specs: https://github.com/ResponsiveImagesCG/picture-element/issues/21 |
| 18:30 | <karlcow> | Well Microsoft doesn't always fix their product, even when told. :) |
| 18:30 | karlcow | has his own story with a lunar calendar |
| 18:31 | <Hixie> | hm, still no heycam |
| 18:31 | <Hixie> | is he on vacation? |
| 18:31 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah |
| 18:32 | <Hixie> | k |
| 18:32 | Ms2ger | checks the dates |
| 18:32 | <Hixie> | no worries |
| 18:32 | Hixie | punts the bug to Q2 |
| 18:32 | <Ms2ger> | That's probably best |
| 18:33 | <Ms2ger> | I suspect he'll spend the rest of Q1 on email backlogs :) |
| 18:34 | <Ms2ger> | Looks like heycam is away until the 24th |
| 18:36 | <karlcow> | though it seems Apple is no better. |
| 18:37 | <jgraham> | karlcow: You were bitten by a Microsoft employee and now you can't go out at the full moon? |
| 18:37 | <karlcow> | grep MoonPhase.ics access.log.132* | grep "Feb/2012" | wc -l |
| 18:37 | <karlcow> | 516354 |
| 18:37 | <karlcow> | "GET /2002/09/13-MoonPhase.ics HTTP/1.1" 410 319 |
| 18:38 | <karlcow> | half a million requests last February for a file which 410 Gone. |
| 18:38 | <karlcow> | which is |
| 18:39 | <karlcow> | These days it seems to be mostly coming from iOS and DataAccess |
| 18:39 | <karlcow> | I guess Microsoft Outlook finally removed it from distribution. |
| 18:40 | <karlcow> | the initial file (Gone now) had a cache information for years, but any kind of calendars are still checking everything 30 minutes or so. |
| 18:41 | <internaut_jack> | Looks like the "contenteditable" attribute doesn't allow <label> elements to be edited. |
| 18:41 | <karlcow> | Sometimes I wonder if instead I should put a calendar with a repeating event every day that would fill the calendar of people |
| 18:41 | <internaut_jack> | As in, they look like they should be able to be edited, and the text can be *deleted* |
| 18:41 | <internaut_jack> | But not typed |
| 18:41 | <internaut_jack> | Anyone seen this? |
| 18:42 | <Hixie> | internaut_jack: sounds like a browser-specific issue |
| 18:42 | <internaut_jack> | This is in Chrome 25.0.1364.155 |
| 18:42 | <internaut_jack> | Would someone please validate? I'll file a bug if it can be replicated. |
| 18:47 | <Hixie> | seems to work fine for me |
| 18:47 | <Hixie> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2137 |
| 18:54 | <internaut_jack> | Hixie, the div has the contenteditable attribute in your example, rather than the label |
| 18:54 | <internaut_jack> | Try putting it right on the label element itself |
| 19:15 | <garciawebdev> | can i use any values on the rel attribute? or just the ones listed on http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/links.html#linkTypes ? |
| 19:17 | <JonathanNeal> | garciawebdev: 4.12.5.14 Other link types Extensions to the predefined set of link types may be registered in the microformats wiki existing-rel-values page. http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=existing-rel-values |
| 19:18 | <JonathanNeal> | Not sure if the validator reflects it, though. |
| 19:20 | <garciawebdev> | JonathanNeal, thanks, validator said my value was not valid |
| 19:21 | <garciawebdev> | but i've seen many use other values not specified there, so i just wanted to check |
| 19:21 | <JonathanNeal> | Hixie: what I just wrote above, ^ ,is that legit? |
| 19:22 | <JonathanNeal> | garciawebdev: I think it's right. It's what the spec says. I just wouldn't want to mislead you. |
| 19:23 | <garciawebdev> | JonathanNeal what's right? the validator complaining about my value? |
| 19:24 | <JonathanNeal> | Ah, sorry, that you can use those values. I thought it would give you a warning in the validator, but I see that it gives you an error. |
| 19:24 | <Hixie> | internaut_jack: i tried it on the <label> too, seemed to work fine |
| 19:25 | <Hixie> | internaut_jack: can you make a test case that shows the problem? |
| 19:25 | <internaut_jack> | Hixie, I have a fiddle, and it works fine there too. Debugging further to see if I can replicate elsewhere. |
| 19:25 | <Hixie> | JonathanNeal: if there's a spec that defines what the link type does, sure |
| 19:46 | <tantek> | garciawebdev - what rel value are you using that's giving you an error? |
| 19:47 | <garciawebdev> | tantek, it's rel="invite" |
| 19:47 | <garciawebdev> | designer put it... |
| 19:47 | <garciawebdev> | and use that to initialize a jQuery plugin |
| 19:47 | <garciawebdev> | you know... |
| 20:04 | <Hixie> | garciawebdev: what does it do? |
| 20:05 | <garciawebdev> | Hixie, sorry, not actually a plugin, it opens a modal |
| 20:05 | <garciawebdev> | when clicking on a button |
| 20:06 | <Hixie> | but what dos rel=invite mean? |
| 20:44 | <garciawebdev> | Hixie that's what i'm not sure |
| 20:45 | <garciawebdev> | Hixie, i don't know, maybe the designer thought he could put anything into rel. is it possible or not? |
| 20:45 | <garciawebdev> | (to put anything on it) |
| 21:50 | <tantek> | garciawebdev - it's possible if it's defined in a spec, and if it's not redundant with existing rel values. |
| 21:50 | <tantek> | I'm not sure rel="invite" makes sense for a modal |
| 21:50 | <tantek> | I'm not even sure what would make sense for a link to a modal |
| 21:51 | <tantek> | is it a dialog like one you would enter in friends's emails to invite them to use the site? |
| 21:51 | <garciawebdev> | tantek, i see, i didn't saw it in a spec, also, no, it doesn't. i think a valid href makes more sense |
| 21:51 | <tantek> | yeah |
| 21:51 | <garciawebdev> | tantek exactly, you seem to read minds |
| 21:51 | <garciawebdev> | hahhahah |
| 21:51 | <garciawebdev> | exactly that |
| 21:52 | tantek | tries not to abuse his powers. |
| 22:11 | <Hixie> | can anyone work out what anne is talking about in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20571 ? |
| 22:39 | <tantek> | garciawebdev - looks like there's some use of data-rel=dialog here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10949549/jquery-mobile-how-to-simulate-data-rel-dialog |
| 22:39 | <tantek> | I wonder if that use is related to your use |
| 22:40 | <tantek> | so we have the <dialog> element for marking up in-page dialog content, but we don't really have a way to markup external pages that are used as dialogs for the current page, do we? |
| 22:40 | <garciawebdev> | tantek i'm almost sure it's an arbitrary decision of the designer to use it for selecting that anchor from jQuery |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17869 |
| 23:22 | <zewt> | do people get cool points for calling anything they don't like an "antipattern" now |
| 23:24 | <astearns> | calling out buzzwords is an antipattern |
| 23:33 | <zewt> | i guess. heh |
| 23:36 | <zewt> | hixie called things antipatterns before it was cool |