00:02
<annevk>
Makes sense, but kinda unexpected: http://www.example.org and http://www.example.org. are distinct origins.
00:06
<annevk>
abarth: you around?
00:06
<abarth>
annevk: yessir
00:07
<annevk>
abarth: how do you feel about defining the "Origin header" in Fetch and "origin of a URL" in URL?
00:07
<annevk>
abarth: and leaving https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6454 as mostly informational
00:07
<abarth>
what's the benefit of that change?
00:08
<annevk>
abarth: benefit of the first change is to no longer have the inaccurate definition of space-separated origins floating around
00:08
<annevk>
abarth: benefit of the second change is marginal, but basically to align around "URL" rather than URI / STD66
00:09
<abarth>
sounds like you're sad about the IETF process :)
00:09
<abarth>
I don't have any objection
00:10
<annevk>
I tried filing errata for the first thing, but it was rejected :/
00:11
<annevk>
And I keep getting questions about that production in relation to CORS. People think they can do Allow-Origin: x y z
00:12
<abarth>
yeah, it seemed like a good idea at the time, and the IETF makes it hard to change those sorts of things after a certain point in their process
00:36
<ambv>
jgraham: not yet public proof of concept - http://html5lib.rtfd.org/
00:37
<annevk>
Does html5lib support <template> yet?
00:37
<annevk>
Live DOM Viewer needs some updating for that too...
00:37
<ambv>
no, only a template attribute as of now.
00:38
<annevk>
Attribute? Not familiar with that I think
00:39
<ambv>
me neither, I only see it's listed as an acceptable attribute in the sanitizer
00:40
<ambv>
as for <template>, I cannot find it mentioned here http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/
00:42
<annevk>
ambv: it's in http://www.w3.org/TR/html-templates/ for now
00:42
<annevk>
ambv: but e.g. Firefox has it nightlies, I think Chrome does too
00:42
<annevk>
ambv: it should prolly be ported to HTML proper now it's in browsers
00:44
<ambv>
fun feature but will probably be added for html5lib 1.1 I guess
06:51
<annevk>
yes
09:32
<zcorpan>
ok, hg problems...
09:33
<zcorpan>
i did some work, commited, push, got:
09:33
<zcorpan>
abort: push creates new remote head fe04da5b1443!
09:33
<zcorpan>
(you should pull and merge or use push -f to force)
09:33
<zcorpan>
so i did hg pull -u
09:33
<zcorpan>
not updating: crosses branches (merge branches or update --check to force update)
09:34
<zcorpan>
so i did hg update --check
09:36
<zcorpan>
and now i don't know what i should do. can i just push?
09:39
<hsivonen>
DRM with bad encoding taste: PlayReady-oriented MP4 files contain UTF-16-encoded XML for designating the license server
09:40
<hsivonen>
in other news, Chrome for desktop already ships EME with at least Clear Key behind a flag
09:41
<jgraham>
zcorpan: Sounds like terrible advice from hg
09:42
<jgraham>
IMHO the right thing to do there is to rebase your changes on to of the upstream changes. Although hg makes that difficult
09:43
<jgraham>
But it sounds like if you try to push it won't work (or will do something bad)
10:19
<zcorpan>
jgraham: ok, how do i get the working copy back to the state when i committed?
10:21
zcorpan
tries hg rollback
10:27
<zcorpan>
well, i undid the pull, but the working copy is in state it was before i made changes. my commit still exists
10:47
<jgraham>
zcorpan: Your tree is in the state before you pulled?
10:47
<jgraham>
i.e. it has your commit but not any of the upstream?
10:47
<jgraham>
(changes)
10:47
<zcorpan>
i think so
10:47
<jgraham>
Well, my suggestion is to use hg pull --rebase
10:47
<jgraham>
Or maybe it is hg fetch --rebase
10:48
<jgraham>
Which requires the rebase extension to be enabled
10:48
<jgraham>
http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/RebaseExtension for how to enable it if it isn't already
11:08
<ambv>
jgraham: shouldn't http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=162 be fixed for 1.0 as well?
11:12
<jgraham>
ambv: Yes
11:12
<zcorpan>
jgraham: ok, did hg pull --rebase
11:13
<zcorpan>
so now i can push?
11:15
<jgraham>
zcorpan: Yes
11:16
<zcorpan>
yay! thanks jgraham
11:26
<hallvors>
does anyone know if there are subdomains set up on w3c-test.org that can be used for cross-origin tests?
11:27
<jgraham>
hallvors: Yes
11:27
<jgraham>
there are
11:28
<hallvors>
any docs on how/where to put helper files to use those?
11:29
<jgraham>
Well the files can go anywhere
11:29
<jgraham>
Everything is mirrored on all domains
11:30
<hallvors>
right. what are the domains?
11:31
<jgraham>
http://www.w3.org/wiki/Testing/Requirements#The_Web_test_server_must_be_available_through_different_domain_names
11:31
<jgraham>
Sorry, that took a long time to find :)
11:31
<hallvors>
nice
11:33
<jgraham>
If only there were a canonical site that had all this information, rather than it being spread across every wiki in the world
11:33
<zcorpan>
jgraham: so no mirror with different TLD
11:34
<jgraham>
No, I think there is only one tld
11:35
<hallvors>
Of course it's a bit tricky to figure out correct and lasting cross-origin URLs given the different branches. have to use JS, I guess.
11:35
<jgraham>
That seems fixable, but it seems hard to make it good enough for testing e.g. public-suffix without a custom DNS setup
11:35
<hallvors>
but most cross-origin tests should be JS anyway
11:36
<jgraham>
hallvors: Yeah, you will see in various places functions for taking a url and adding "www." just after the scheme part
11:36
<hallvors>
:)
11:36
<odinho_>
I had a support.js and some functions doing some smart stuff there.
11:36
<jgraham>
There would probably be something to be said for having a w3c-test stdlib for this kind of thing
11:36
<odinho_>
But it would be nice to have some sort of global variables where you could configure some stuff for this.
11:40
<hallvors>
does anyone know what Anne means by "UMP" in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010JanMar/0638.html ?
11:40
hallvors
apologises if this is a very silly question
11:41
<zcorpan>
http://www.w3.org/TR/UMP/
11:45
<hallvors>
if create an anonymous XHR request, rig it to GET a same-origin resource and set a custom header, it will trigger a preflight and the same-origin resource will have to opt in to receiving that custom header?! Right?
11:47
<hallvors>
maybe I should wait until Anne wakes up?
12:14
<ambv>
jgraham: as for the README.rst rewording, I'll update it in a separate PR
12:15
<ambv>
basically I'm proposing to rewrite it slightly using a more affirmative language and putting the most important information first
12:16
<ambv>
for instance: https://gist.github.com/ambv/0baf1dfb42548cf17959 /cc gsnedders
12:19
<jgraham>
FWIW I think using alternate treebuilders is README level
12:20
<ambv>
sure, I didn't take it out, it wasn't there before the edit
12:21
<jgraham>
I know
12:46
<ambv>
jgraham: something like https://gist.github.com/ambv/0baf1dfb42548cf17959 ?
12:47
<jgraham>
ambv: Looking good!
12:48
<ambv>
OK, pushing for RTC
12:49
<jgraham>
Real time Communication?
12:49
<ambv>
review-then-commit
12:49
<ambv>
:-)
12:49
<ambv>
an Apache term, gsnedders is using it as well
12:51
<jgraham>
Oh, I understand review-then-commit. But not the acronym :)
17:27
<ambv>
gsnedders: accept https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showcomment?chain=176 as resolved, please
18:12
<TabAtkins>
annevk: Mind reviewing http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/json-ld-api/#the-application-programming-interface to make sure it's invoking the right jargon wrt futures?
18:13
<TabAtkins>
Looks reasonable to me.
18:19
<annevk>
TabAtkins: I guess
18:31
<GPHemsley>
The new Gmail compose interface really makes me angry
18:32
<TabAtkins>
Join zewt's club. I'll be on the other side, loving the crap out of it.
18:32
<GPHemsley>
zewt, TabAtkins: Out of curiosity, what browser do you use?
18:32
<annevk>
It's okay, if only it didn't encourage top-posting.
18:32
<TabAtkins>
Chrome.
18:33
<TabAtkins>
annevk: That's nothing particularly new. :/
18:33
<GPHemsley>
Every time I try to write an e-mail, there's some portion of it that I have to fight with.
18:33
<GPHemsley>
And, FTR, I use Aurora.
18:34
<GPHemsley>
I personally do not like being treated like I don't know how to use a form element
18:34
<GPHemsley>
I don't need some babysitter go-between hijacking text inputs and textboxes.
18:34
<TabAtkins>
On the other hand, I feel like the new compose finally works like I *want* composes to work.
18:34
<TabAtkins>
(Except for a few small editting bugs.)
18:35
<GPHemsley>
Those editing bugs are what bug me the most.
18:35
<GPHemsley>
Gmail has hijacked my keyboard shortcuts and navigation for a while, but now it's worse
18:36
<GPHemsley>
I can't highlight and overwrite without being punted to the end of the e-mail
18:36
<GPHemsley>
I can't drag and drop without being navigated to some other part of the e-mail
18:36
<GPHemsley>
I can't edit the To/CC fields by hand
18:36
<GPHemsley>
(Which means I can't swap addresses)
18:37
<TabAtkins>
I don't understand the lightlight one, or the drag-and-drop one.
18:37
<TabAtkins>
What do you mean by "swap addresses"?
18:37
<GPHemsley>
And, (probably unrelatedly,) last night I was reading a long Google Groups thread and was scrolled back to the top when a new post came in
18:37
<TabAtkins>
s/lightlight/highlight/
18:38
<GPHemsley>
If I highlight a multiple lines of of a reply e-mail, and then hit enter multiple times to delete them and start writing, the cursor ends up at the bottom of the message
18:38
<GPHemsley>
under my signature
18:39
<TabAtkins>
Oh, that's bizarre. I haven't experienced that.
18:39
<GPHemsley>
If I highlight a chunk of text in a reply and drag it to another part of the e-mail, weird things happen.
18:39
<TabAtkins>
Likely a random incompat issue with editting APIs.
18:39
<GPHemsley>
And if I want to switch the e-mail addresses in the To and CC fields, I have to delete them and retype them
18:39
<GPHemsley>
whereas I used to just be able to cut and paste
18:40
<TabAtkins>
You can just drag them.
18:40
<GPHemsley>
oh, hmm, I see that
18:40
<GPHemsley>
totally non-obvious
18:40
<TabAtkins>
I never use highlight+drag text, so I dunno what that might be doing. (I consider that behavior a bug when I accidentally activate it. >_<)
18:41
<GPHemsley>
interesting
18:41
<TabAtkins>
GPHemsley: It was obvious to me - the "chips" looks draggable. Different experiences, I suppose.
18:41
<GPHemsley>
I guess
18:41
<GPHemsley>
but hovering doesn't give any indication
18:41
<GPHemsley>
it just pops up a useless box
18:41
<TabAtkins>
Ooh, you're right. It should produce a grabber icon.
18:41
<TabAtkins>
Filing bug now.
18:42
<GPHemsley>
kthx
18:43
<GPHemsley>
I used to use Gmail in Mozilla Prism before this new compose window
18:43
<GPHemsley>
(I'm probably the only one on Earth still using that application)
18:44
<GPHemsley>
allowing me to have Gmail in a separate app
18:44
<GPHemsley>
but attachments no longer work
18:44
<GPHemsley>
since it's based on Firefox 3.6
18:45
<GPHemsley>
I also still hate how the new Gmail design wastes a lot of whitespace
18:45
<GPHemsley>
(for whatever meaning of "new" is relevant here)
18:46
<TabAtkins>
Tried switching to the more compact theme?
18:46
<TabAtkins>
(from the gear dropdown, upper right)
18:46
<TabAtkins>
Heh, assuming that webapps should care about FF 3.6 is obviously a recipe for disappointment. ^_^
18:47
<GPHemsley>
This is *in* the compact theme
18:47
<GPHemsley>
If I used anything else, my head would explode
18:48
<GPHemsley>
And if the window is wide enough to display the full subject of an e-mail, why truncate it half-way through?
18:48
GPHemsley
is just ranting about Gmail at this point
18:49
<GPHemsley>
I also don't like how the list of labels no longer scrolls with the page... I have to scroll it separately to get to stuff at the end of the alphabet
18:49
<zewt>
also where the heck did colored names go
18:49
<zewt>
obnoxious that you used to be able to tell the Ians apart, but now they're all just "Ian"
18:50
<GPHemsley>
I mean, I guess that sort of makes sense... but it's jarring
18:50
<TabAtkins>
Yeah, I liked the colored names.
18:50
<GPHemsley>
Ah, yeah, zewt has a point. I'd missed that. (Though I think the anonymous icons change colors.)
18:50
<zewt>
it's the from column in mailboxes where it was useful
18:51
<GPHemsley>
Hmm... I'm not sure I remember that
18:51
<GPHemsley>
I also hate how they keep changing the available label color scheme
18:51
<GPHemsley>
rendering all my old label colors obsolete
18:52
<GPHemsley>
meaning I can no longer use the same color for new labels without jumping through color-picking hoops
18:52
<TabAtkins>
That's legit. Mind summarizing the issue so I can report it better?
18:52
<zewt>
really though the biggest thing gmail is missing is being able to properly filter sublabels
18:52
<TabAtkins>
zewt: God, yes.
18:52
<GPHemsley>
TabAtkins: Which one? the label colors?
18:52
<TabAtkins>
GPHemsley: Yeah.
18:52
<zewt>
so 1: i can filter "anything not matched by another filter in this group", and 2: so grouped labels can view all labels underneath them
18:53
<zewt>
instead i have to have this giant matrix of "a && !b && !c && !d && !e"
18:53
<TabAtkins>
zewt: Yes on both. I made a master label for all my standards lists, and it's worthless for anything but organizing the labels panel (which is what it was originally for, so yay?).
18:53
<GPHemsley>
TabAtkins: I've had Gmail since 2004, and have used labels since they were introduced (whenever that was). In the beginning, there was a default set of colors. So I used various choices to categorize my labels. Over the years, that default set of colors has changed, for whatever reason, but my old labels have not be recolored.
18:54
<GPHemsley>
TabAtkins: If I create a new label that I want to be in the same color category as other labels, I can no longer find the same color because it has been replaced.
18:54
<TabAtkins>
GPHemsley: Got it. You can add custom colors, but we should probably have added custom colors automatically for people *using* colors that we removed.
18:54
<GPHemsley>
TabAtkins: And the default color set seems to have changed more than once.
18:54
<GPHemsley>
TabAtkins: Yes, exactly.
18:56
<GPHemsley>
I'd also like a search filter for e-mail that isn't labeled
18:56
<zewt>
they're also tinkering with the editor too much, so it's accumulating weird bugs
18:56
<zewt>
how many times have I tried to delete a blank line inside a quote, and ended up deleting the whole mail or something
18:56
<GPHemsley>
(including treating labels like "inbox" as unlabeled)
18:57
<GPHemsley>
zewt: Yeah, that seems similar to what I was complaining about: I get pushed to the end of the e-mail when i do that.
18:58
<TabAtkins>
GPHemsley: Filed.
18:58
<GPHemsley>
TabAtkins: Thanks. Is there any public place i can file these directly?
18:59
<TabAtkins>
Not that I know of - I'm using the internal bugfiler.
18:59
<GPHemsley>
k
18:59
<zewt>
the public google trackers have always been a black hole for me
19:03
<GPHemsley>
In a related area, I hate how the Gmail Android app notifies me when I archive mail via the Web
19:03
<GPHemsley>
It should only notify me when there's new mail, not when there's less old mail
19:04
<GPHemsley>
It also notifies me when I mark something as unread
19:04
<TabAtkins>
That's... weird.
19:05
<GPHemsley>
Not really... it's just not very smart
19:05
<GPHemsley>
it notifies me whenever the mailbox changes state
19:05
<TabAtkins>
Yeah, which is weird. And dumb.
19:05
<GPHemsley>
without any regard to what the new state actually is
19:05
<GPHemsley>
Dumb, yes. Weird, I don't think so.
19:07
<zewt>
can someone tell the google ui people that having buttons titled "nope" instead of "no" do not make them cool
19:07
<zewt>
just sayin'
19:08
<TabAtkins>
Why you gotta crush their dreams?
19:09
<GPHemsley>
It'd also be cool to filter labels by color
19:09
<GPHemsley>
so that I can see which labels have what color
19:09
<GPHemsley>
(and then, when that other thing gets fixed, fix my newer label colors)
19:10
<GPHemsley>
That's probably enough for now
19:10
<GPHemsley>
highest priority annoyances, though, are the ones I have with the compose window
19:10
<GPHemsley>
because they are kinda the lifeblood of an e-mail app
19:34
<jgraham>
marcosc: Why not just Alarm.cancel()?
19:34
<marcosc>
that could work
19:35
<jgraham>
(it also seems kind of ironic that you can't have an Alarm constructor because you have to use futures)
19:35
<jgraham>
(or something async at least)
19:36
<marcosc>
jgraham: yeah, this affects a few APIs
19:37
<marcosc>
It means having a lot of:
19:37
<marcosc>
Foo.create()
19:37
<marcosc>
I'm not a big fan of that
19:37
<marcosc>
but can live with it if the Future provides some significant benefits
19:37
<jgraham>
Sure
19:38
<jgraham>
Would be find of neat if one could write "future Alarm()" instead of "new Alarm()"
19:38
<jgraham>
Although it doesn't really make sense since most things are one or the other
19:38
<marcosc>
yeah, I know what you mean
19:38
<jgraham>
Anyway, I'm not sure why this uses navigator
19:39
<marcosc>
I know, it should just use the interface object
19:39
<marcosc>
There is a lot of that stuff in the SysApps API. Working to remove it
19:39
<marcosc>
Everyone thinks they have to copy geolocation
19:39
<marcosc>
YOU DON'T HAVE TO COPY GEOLOCATION
19:40
<marcosc>
:)
19:40
<marcosc>
Someone W3C meme that
19:40
<marcosc>
rwaldron keeps telling people that too, but people get scared or something
19:41
<jgraham>
You mean with static methods, like AlarmManager.add?
19:46
<marcosc>
jgraham: yeah. But we just rename AlarmManager to Alarms or something
19:50
<TabAtkins>
Using Futures doesn't have to mean forgoing a constructor. Future-ness is (or should be) like EventTarget-ness - something you can mix into anything.
19:51
<TabAtkins>
The places that currently prevent that are bugs.
20:02
<jgraham>
TabAtkins: I don't see what new Alarm() would do (other than block the main thread, which is obviously unacceptable)
20:03
<TabAtkins>
Return an Alarm(), which contains the passed data and a .cancel() method, and which can be .then()'d if you want to recieve notice of sucess/failure in registering it.
20:03
<TabAtkins>
Sorry, "Return an Alarm,...".
20:06
<jgraham>
Hmm, interesting. But it does mean that futures rather take over your API
20:07
<TabAtkins>
Only insofar as they represent a standardized way to register callbacks for success/failure.
20:07
<jgraham>
Now any method that requires the object to actually be fully constructed requires a Future
20:07
<TabAtkins>
Other than that, it's a straightforward API, which lets you create and cancel alarms.
20:07
<TabAtkins>
Oh, hm.
20:08
<TabAtkins>
Is the alternative just making an async constructor function, and then having a normal object?
20:08
<jgraham>
Yes
20:08
<TabAtkins>
kk.
20:08
<TabAtkins>
What we really need is to add "await" to the language. :/
20:09
<jgraham>
How does that work?
20:09
<TabAtkins>
You have to declare the surrounding function to be async somehow (which forces it into returning a Future). Then, you can use "await" in the body, which has a similar effect to "yield" in a generator.
20:10
<TabAtkins>
(It's basically identical to how you use generators today to *model* futures, in libraries like Task.js that provide a control-inverter for you.
20:12
<TabAtkins>
More explanation - an await expression is "await <expr>", where <expr> is either a plain value or a Future. If it's a plain value, the await expression just returns that value. If it's a future, your function pauses (like a generator does) until the future resolves, at which point the await expression resolves to the future's value.
20:13
<TabAtkins>
So you can write code that looks sync by using "await" to transform Futures into plain values.
20:13
<TabAtkins>
The original Future returned by the outer function is pending until the function returns or throws, at which point it accepts/rejects.
20:13
<jgraham>
So it's like python coroutines, kind of?
20:14
<TabAtkins>
It's shallow co-routines, with identical power to generators but an inverted semantic. Dunno how powerful Python coroutines are.
20:15
<jgraham>
http://www.dabeaz.com/coroutines/index.html is more or less the canonical guide to python coroutines
20:16
<jgraham>
But yes, I think I get the idea, and it does seem like it would be helpful
20:16
<TabAtkins>
You can implement the semantic *using* generators and a manager - you just use "yield" instead of "await". The manager function takes your generator and calls .next() repeatedly (receiving a Future from your yield call), and does the waiting for you, restarting you with .send() when it completes.
22:19
<annevk>
Where is HTML Imports defined?
22:20
<annevk>
dglazkov: ^
22:22
<dglazkov>
annevk: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/imports/index.html
22:22
<annevk>
dglazkov: trying to understand https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21976 basically
22:22
<annevk>
dglazkov: thanks btw
22:23
<jsbell>
annevk: Ages ago I asked about adding |readonly attribute DOMString message| to DOMError. I'm planning to actually implement that now. What's the best way to get it into the dom spec? Fork and send you a pull request?
22:23
<annevk>
jsbell: heh, been thinking about adding that earlier today
22:23
<annevk>
jsbell: I think it's easier for me to add it after I've looked at this HTML imports stuff
22:24
<jsbell>
great, thanks. I'll pester you in another few months if it doesn't materialize
22:24
<annevk>
sooner is fine, but yes
22:24
<annevk>
dglazkov: ownerNode should be Element
22:25
<annevk>
dglazkov: it's Node for style sheets because it can be a ProcessingInstruction there
22:25
<dglazkov>
annevk: pls file bugs. I won't remember :)
22:25
<annevk>
dglazkov: for style sheets it should prolly become (Element or ProcessingInstruction) I guess
22:25
<annevk>
pfff
22:25
<dglazkov>
pfffff
22:26
<annevk>
dglazkov: there's no component
22:28
<dglazkov>
there's a nice button
22:29
<dglazkov>
that does pretty much everything
22:29
<dglazkov>
:)
22:29
<annevk>
dglazkov: I did, the component fails
22:29
<dglazkov>
wat
22:30
<dglazkov>
config fail :(
22:30
<dglazkov>
sorry, use "Component Model"
22:30
<dglazkov>
will fix
22:30
<annevk>
done
22:32
<annevk>
dglazkov: why not <link>.importContent?
22:33
<annevk>
dglazkov: would make the whole construct much simpler
22:33
<dglazkov>
annevk: I think there's a bug for that already.
22:33
<dglazkov>
see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/showdependencytree.cgi?id=20683
22:33
<dglazkov>
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21225
22:34
<annevk>
yeah that's much better
22:34
<annevk>
i'm gonna mark my bug as a dupe of that I guess
22:36
<boogyman>
The idea behind an import is that you take advantage of User Agent caching in the master, opposed to separate documents?
23:11
<annevk>
jsbell: added
23:12
<jsbell>
annevk: awesome, thanks
23:35
<annevk>
GPHemsley: re https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21307 ; XHR does that kind of thing