| 05:41 | <sangwhan_> | geez, i swear i disabled all notifications from web-platform-tests, and still are getting them |
| 05:41 | sangwhan_ | kicks github |
| 08:20 | <hsivonen> | so apparently Unicode defers to ISO 6429:1992 for the semantics of C0 controls |
| 08:20 | <hsivonen> | and that spec is 196 CHF from ISO |
| 08:21 | hsivonen | reads the Wikipedia article on ISO 6429 instead |
| 10:08 | <JakeA> | Remind me why NodeList inheriting from JS arrays is bad and DOMString inheriting from JS is ok |
| 10:20 | <Ms2ger> | Because websites break with one and not the other? |
| 10:23 | <JakeA> | Ms2ger: is there proof of that? |
| 10:25 | <Ms2ger> | https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81573 |
| 10:31 | <JakeA> | Ms2ger: exactly what I was looking for, cheers. Although ::sadface:: |
| 11:44 | <annevk> | jetlag is somewhat stronger than anticipated |
| 14:11 | <Ms2ger> | Given a select s with an option with an empty id, what do the following return? |
| 14:11 | <Ms2ger> | s.namedItem("") |
| 14:11 | <Ms2ger> | s.options.namedItem("") |
| 14:11 | <Ms2ger> | s.options[""] |
| 14:25 | <jgraham> | So can anyone recommend an XMPP provider? |
| 14:29 | <SimonSapin> | jgraham: I’m using hosted.im |
| 14:29 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: are you fixing the DOM bug for me? |
| 14:29 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: 'cause that'd be great |
| 14:29 | <Ms2ger> | I wasn't :) |
| 14:29 | <Ms2ger> | But I guess I can |
| 14:48 | <jgraham> | SimonSapin: Thanks |
| 14:48 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Are you asking the same question in the form of a review request? :p |
| 14:51 | <Ms2ger> | :) |
| 15:06 | <Ms2ger> | This is the sucky part about trying to strike things off my tests-todo-list |
| 15:06 | <Ms2ger> | Strike one off, add at least one |
| 17:56 | <JonathanNeal> | Hello |
| 17:57 | <JonathanNeal> | When I use em values in a @media query, should the @media query care what the font size is on html? |
| 18:06 | <JonathanNeal> | Anything going on with element queries? |
| 18:07 | <galant> | in the unicode character set standard it says hexadecimal code 25 is % but it is left arrow key why is this? |
| 18:08 | <annevk> | it's not data:text/html,&%23x25; |
| 18:08 | <annevk> | JonathanNeal: it cares about the initial font-size, see the spec |
| 18:10 | <JonathanNeal> | annevk: i'm not sure it's specified, http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/ http://dev.w3.org/csswg/mediaqueries4/ |
| 18:11 | <annevk> | well I wrote that text |
| 18:11 | <annevk> | let me look |
| 18:11 | <annevk> | JonathanNeal: http://w3c-test.org/csswg/mediaqueries3/#units |
| 18:12 | <JonathanNeal> | annevk: so it's the interpretation of what "the initial value of ‘font-size’" is? |
| 18:12 | <annevk> | that's defined by CSS |
| 18:12 | <annevk> | might be implementation defined, but typically 16px |
| 18:15 | <JonathanNeal> | annevk: right, impacted by its container. |
| 18:15 | <annevk> | no, initial value is not impacted by a container |
| 18:16 | <JonathanNeal> | div { font-size: 50%; } div > div { font-size: 1em; } |
| 18:17 | <JonathanNeal> | but in the case of @media queries, they are not descendants of <html>, so em is basically 16px, is that right? |
| 18:19 | <annevk> | say you do html { font-size:1.1em } |
| 18:19 | <annevk> | that depends on the initial font-size value |
| 18:20 | <annevk> | which is implementation-defined, but typically 16px |
| 18:35 | <JonathanNeal> | annevk: right, got it |
| 18:36 | <JonathanNeal> | and rem IS based on html. |
| 18:41 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: are you going to fix that bug or should I start investigating? |
| 18:41 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: if you could at least comment on your findings in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22291 ... |
| 18:41 | <Ms2ger> | Sorry, haven't looked yet |
| 19:34 | <TabAtkins> | JonathanNeal: In MQ, em is unaffected by any properties set on the page. It's solely the initial value. |
| 19:34 | <TabAtkins> | Unlike rem, which is the value of font-size on the root element. |
| 19:35 | <TabAtkins> | The initial value of font-size is implementation defined. As Anne said, it's typically 16px, but users can change that setting in the settings of most (all?) browsers. |
| 19:35 | <jgraham> | (doing so typically breaks the web) |
| 19:35 | <jgraham> | (but no more so then, say, disabling script, which people also do) |
| 19:35 | <jgraham> | *than |
| 19:36 | <TabAtkins> | Badly enough that a browser couldn't change their own default, yes, but not badly enough that a user can't do it. |
| 19:36 | <TabAtkins> | I use one level of zoom on lots of sites. |
| 19:37 | <Hixie_> | cabanier: pong |
| 19:37 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah, I use 14px or so |
| 19:38 | <Ms2ger> | Though I sometimes just mess with the font-size in the web console |
| 19:38 | <darobin> | 14px doesn't break the web much overall |
| 19:38 | <Hixie_> | Ms2ger: were you doing the dom side of the collections [''] bug? or were you asking for unrelated reasons? |
| 19:39 | TabAtkins | loves Chrome's min-font-size setting. Text <10px is a dick move. |
| 19:39 | <JonathanNeal> | TabAtkins, jgraham, good to know |
| 19:39 | <JonathanNeal> | TabAtkins: ruh roh, does that break those font-size: 0 layout containers? |
| 19:39 | <Ms2ger> | Hixie_, no, just writing a somewhat-related test |
| 19:39 | <Hixie_> | k |
| 19:39 | <TabAtkins> | Ms2ger: Probably, but I haven't noticed anything in particular yet. |
| 19:39 | <annevk> | Hixie_: I guess I might end up doing that if Ms2ger doesn't get to it |
| 19:40 | <Ms2ger> | If annevk doesn't get around to it, I probably will later this week |
| 19:40 | <TabAtkins> | So either I'm unobservant, or spend time on better sites, or it really doesn't break much. |
| 19:40 | <annevk> | Hixie_: do I need to do testing or just copy what you do? |
| 19:40 | <Hixie_> | annevk: i did some testing in the bug, more testing can't hurt though |
| 19:40 | <darobin> | TabAtkins: or the setting is smart enough to treat font-size: 0 as a special case |
| 19:40 | <TabAtkins> | darobin: No clue. |
| 19:41 | <TabAtkins> | All I know is that it works on the xkcd forums, where people use tiny text as subtext. |
| 19:41 | <TabAtkins> | And occasionally for end-of-blog-post metadata, etc. |
| 19:42 | darobin | gets tempted to embed messages just for Tab here and there |
| 19:44 | <jgraham> | And everywhere? |
| 19:44 | <SimonSapin> | TabAtkins: wait, rem is based on :root in MQs? Isn’t that a layering violation? |
| 19:44 | <TabAtkins> | No, rem is same as em *in MQs*. |
| 19:44 | <TabAtkins> | But outside of them, rem is different. |
| 19:45 | <SimonSapin> | ah, ok |
| 19:45 | <SimonSapin> | of course |
| 19:49 | <TabAtkins> | annevk: You can't embed / in a pathsegment in any reasonable way, can you? It must be %-escaped? |
| 19:49 | <TabAtkins> | s/reasonable way/way that keeps a literal \/ in the string/ |
| 19:51 | <SimonSapin> | TabAtkins: it seems to me that ending at an unescaped / is the definition of path segment … |
| 19:52 | <TabAtkins> | SimonSapin: I meant something like a backslash escape, which still contains the escaped character (and thus defeats naive string splitting). |
| 19:52 | <SimonSapin> | and many server-side software are not good at telling the difference anyway |
| 19:52 | <Hixie_> | why is %-escaping not reasonable? |
| 19:53 | <SimonSapin> | I think you’re safe with naive string splitting, if that’s what you’re getting at |
| 19:53 | <Hixie_> | also, i just found a bug in apache. |
| 19:54 | <Hixie_> | http://hixie.ch/blablabla.404 returns a 404 page, http://hixie.ch/blablabla.404%2F says it couldn't find the 404 page. |
| 19:54 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie_: I'm not trying to judge, I was just trying to ask a question before I made suggestions on Anne's url email. |
| 19:54 | <Hixie_> | (http://hixie.ch/blablabla.404/ finds a 404 page too) |
| 19:54 | <Hixie_> | ah, e-mail |
| 19:54 | <Hixie_> | i should read some of those |
| 19:58 | <Hixie_> | hm, having an object that can be indexed and that has a built-in toString that returns the right escaped concatenation would be interesting |
| 19:59 | <TabAtkins> | Yus. |
| 20:00 | <TabAtkins> | Though you don't want it to be just that type of object, I think. You want to be able to accept any array. |
| 20:00 | <Hixie_> | assignable to an array? yeah, that makes sense |
| 20:00 | <TabAtkins> | So that you can, say, do "pathname = url.segments.map(foo);", since that returns a plain array probably? |
| 20:00 | <Hixie_> | url.path = ['a','b']; |
| 20:01 | <Hixie_> | url.path = 'a/b'; |
| 20:01 | <Hixie_> | url.path[0] == 'a'; |
| 20:01 | <TabAtkins> | But yeah, having it return an array-like that does the toString behavior itself is nice. |
| 20:01 | <Hixie_> | url.path == '/a/b' |
| 20:01 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah. |
| 20:01 | <Hixie_> | not sure how you do that in WebIDL, maybe a PutForwards to an attribute that is (Array or DOMString) or something? |
| 20:02 | <Hixie_> | where Array is DOMString[] ? |
| 20:02 | <Hixie_> | anyway. lgtm. |
| 20:02 | Hixie_ | goes back to making the web worse by speccing navigator.plugins |
| 20:22 | <JonathanNeal> | TabAtkins: rem is same as em in mqs? |
| 20:23 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, it has to be. |
| 20:23 | <JonathanNeal> | http://codepen.io/jonneal/full/ArwtI ? |
| 20:25 | <JonathanNeal> | It does not appear to be exactly the same, in that link's case, if you resize the browser, it goes into a fun shock. |
| 20:25 | <JonathanNeal> | Chrome handles it the same as other recursive issues. |
| 20:26 | <TabAtkins> | JonathanNeal: It does do some weird stuff, but it definitely triggers the switch to blue at > 16px. |
| 20:26 | <TabAtkins> | Probably approximately 16px*80 |
| 20:26 | <TabAtkins> | Sorry, I meant 80px in my previous line. |
| 20:27 | <Hixie_> | 16px*80px? 1280px^2 ? |
| 20:32 | <TabAtkins> | No, the previous previous line. |
| 20:32 | <TabAtkins> | JonathanNeal: Looks like we have a bug in Chrome. I'm filing now. |
| 20:32 | <TabAtkins> | And yeah, the weird red/blue thing is crazy. |
| 20:40 | <Hixie_> | heycam|away: how do i make an object's supported property names _not_ be enumerable at all? |
| 20:40 | <Hixie_> | like in navigator.plugins |
| 20:40 | <Domenic_> | TabAtkins: interesting, that led me to thinking about `window.location.segments = window.location.segments.map(foo)` and how that should probably work. |
| 20:41 | <TabAtkins> | Domenic_: Yeah, it depends on whether you override the built-in Array#map or not, I think? |
| 20:43 | <Domenic_> | TabAtkins: I think the plan is for subclasses to return themselves from everything, including map? Need to check... |
| 20:44 | <TabAtkins> | You mean, the Array built-ins returning an instance of the subclass they were inherited by? |
| 20:45 | <Domenic_> | TabAtkins: yeah that's it. http://esdiscuss.org/topic/whydoesarrayfromalsotakeamapfn#content-9 there was a lot of confusion at the beginning of that thread though |
| 20:45 | <Hixie_> | so huh. |
| 20:46 | <Hixie_> | is there no way in WebIDL to have an object have named properties that aren't enumerated? |
| 20:46 | <Hixie_> | what if i want an object to have every property, served on demand? |
| 20:46 | <Hixie_> | so i could do spellcheck['foo'] for example |
| 20:46 | <Hixie_> | where 'foo' is any string... |
| 20:46 | <Hixie_> | (not that that would be a good api, but that's besides the point here) |
| 20:46 | <jgraham> | If you wanted to do that we would look at you strange |
| 20:47 | <jgraham> | Although if you use the words "for plugins", it will have the same effect as adding "in Japan" to an implausible-sounding claim |
| 20:47 | <TabAtkins> | Those types of APIs are frowned upon - they interact badly with prototypes. |
| 20:47 | <TabAtkins> | Do a [MapClass] instead. |
| 20:47 | <TabAtkins> | Though I guess you're stuck with legacy. |
| 20:48 | <Hixie_> | jgraham: thus us for navigator.plugins, does that count? :-) |
| 20:48 | <Hixie_> | 'Google Talk Plugin' in navigator.plugins => true |
| 20:49 | <jgraham> | Hixie_: Sure :) But your gambit should be "this is a strange thing I need for legacy", not "this is something a normal API might use" |
| 20:49 | <Hixie_> | for (i in navigator.plugins) { if (i == 'Google Talk Plugin') alert('bing') } => no bing |
| 20:49 | <Hixie_> | jgraham: i was just trying to describe what i need, sorry if it sounded like i wanted it :-) |
| 20:50 | <Hixie_> | i'm just surprised this hasn't come up before |
| 20:50 | <Hixie_> | sure does look like webidl doesn't support this |
| 20:50 | <Hixie_> | i guess i'll file a bug |
| 20:50 | <jgraham> | It sounds like you just want a way of specifying an {enumerable:false} propert in webidl |
| 20:50 | <jgraham> | *property |
| 20:51 | <Hixie_> | yeah |
| 20:51 | <Hixie_> | wow, webidl has only about half as many open bugs as html |
| 20:55 | <annevk> | So can navigator.plugins be explained in terms of JS? |
| 20:55 | <annevk> | Hixie_: "unit of related similar-origin browsing contexts" is a useful concept, it could use a useful name |
| 20:57 | <Hixie_> | annevk: file a bug with a suggestion, if you need a convenient hook. or do what i do for some other specs, import the name as "unit of related similar-origin browsing contexts" and then say "which in this specification are referred to as Foos..." |
| 20:57 | <JonathanNeal> | TabAtkins: why is it a bug? |
| 20:57 | <Hixie_> | (just try to make the short name obviously refer to the long name, so it's not too confusing) |
| 20:57 | <TabAtkins> | JonathanNeal: Because it's a circularity issue? |
| 20:57 | <annevk> | uorsobc |
| 20:57 | <JonathanNeal> | I thought rem references the root element of the document, which is HTML. |
| 20:57 | <TabAtkins> | Also: spec violation. |
| 20:58 | <TabAtkins> | JonathanNeal: Yes, it does *in normal styles*. In a MQ, it ignores any page styling, and uses the initial font size, same as em. |
| 20:58 | <annevk> | Hixie_: kk |
| 21:05 | <Hixie_> | wtf, in firefox i sometimes can enumerate them and sometimes not |
| 21:05 | <Hixie_> | oh i suppose you could do what i described using a creator... |
| 21:06 | <Hixie_> | though that'd be wacked |
| 21:07 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie_: Hm? |
| 21:07 | <Hixie_> | instead of a getter, i define a setter |
| 21:07 | <Hixie_> | that ignores the value |
| 21:07 | <Hixie_> | and returns the property value |
| 21:08 | <Hixie_> | it'd get the effect i described earlier |
| 21:08 | <Hixie_> | (not actually suggesting doing this) |
| 21:08 | <Hixie_> | er, define a creator |
| 21:08 | <TabAtkins> | Hm, yeah, that might work. |
| 21:08 | <TabAtkins> | Check with heycam first. ^_^ |
| 21:09 | <Hixie_> | actually a creator would fail the 'in' test |
| 21:18 | <TabAtkins> | Ah, right, because there are no named properties. |
| 21:23 | <Hixie_> | anyone got IE handy? i'm having trouble getting mine to work. What does it say in the log for http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2396 ? |
| 21:28 | <annevk> | gimme a sec |
| 21:30 | <annevk> | Hixie_: eight results, 3 and 6 are ---, rest is false |
| 21:30 | <annevk> | Hixie_: sorry, -- |
| 21:30 | <annevk> | Hixie_: IE10 |
| 21:32 | <Hixie_> | oh, right, you probably don't have that plugin |
| 21:33 | <Hixie_> | annevk: wait, per that you don't have any plugins installed at all |
| 21:33 | <Hixie_> | is that true? |
| 21:33 | <Hixie_> | annevk: try http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/2397 |
| 21:34 | <Hixie_> | annevk: but if you don't have any plugins (first result is false) then that might not tell us anything useful |
| 21:37 | <ThomasOr_> | Hi! Would there be an autoconfirmed user on the chat that could help me with a whatwg wiki account? : ) |
| 21:38 | <Hixie_> | ThomasOr_: yeah, sorry for delay answering your e-mail. let me do it now. |
| 21:38 | <ThomasOr_> | No worries! : ) I kind of assume that everyone is busy around! : ) |
| 21:39 | <ThomasOr_> | And thanks! |
| 21:39 | <Hixie_> | done, check e-mail for details. :-) |
| 21:39 | <ThomasOr_> | That was fast, thanks a lot!! |
| 21:39 | <Hixie_> | np |
| 21:39 | <Hixie_> | annevk: do you recall who's a blog admin these days? |
| 21:44 | <annevk> | Hixie_: I am one |
| 21:44 | <Hixie_> | GPHemsley: btw, you still looking for a project? because mouse events would be a good one, and shouldn't be too hard, yet is a huge hole in our current spec coverage. |
| 21:44 | <annevk> | Hixie_: will look at the IE thing |
| 21:44 | <annevk> | Hixie_: I don't have plugins |
| 21:45 | <annevk> | Hixie_: "error: Unable to get property 'name' of undefined or null reference on line 2" |
| 21:45 | <Hixie_> | k |
| 21:45 | <annevk> | Hixie_: default install of Windows plus IE10 |
| 21:46 | annevk | updates the blog software |
| 21:48 | <Hixie_> | wow, IE10 by default has no flash? |
| 21:49 | <annevk> | Hixie_: so, you are an admin, Christopher Bright is, gsnedders, hsivonen, jgraham, lachlan, markp, MikeSmith, zcorpan |
| 21:49 | <annevk> | Hixie_: also me |
| 21:51 | <gsnedders> | annevk: Where? |
| 21:51 | <annevk> | WHATWG Blog |
| 21:52 | <Hixie_> | roger |
| 22:16 | <GPHemsley> | Hixie_: What I'm really looking for right now is money, but if you have an existing link, I'll take a look |
| 22:16 | <Hixie_> | there's no existing link. that's the problem. |
| 22:17 | <GPHemsley> | ah |
| 22:17 | <GPHemsley> | any documentation at all? |
| 22:17 | <Hixie_> | things like https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/GlobalEventHandlers.onmouseover |
| 22:17 | <Hixie_> | but nothing particularly useful |
| 22:37 | <jwalden> | the DOM is still a tree, right? that particular invariant *has* been preserved, unlike many others, right? |
| 22:38 | <jwalden> | Hixie_: I think they tried to make it work with IE10, then folded in SP1 or some sort of update |
| 22:40 | <gsnedders> | jwalden: Yes |
| 23:00 | <Hixie_> | jwalden: yes |
| 23:00 | <Hixie_> | jwalden: make what work? |
| 23:00 | <jwalden> | Hixie_: shipping without Flash support, possibly with a site whitelist of sites that allow it |
| 23:00 | <jwalden> | a valiant effort |
| 23:00 | <jwalden> | possibly too soon |
| 23:08 | <Hixie_> | ah |
| 23:28 | <GPHemsley> | Hixie_: Do all mouse events have a corresponding onX attribute in HTML, and vice versa? |
| 23:43 | <Hixie_> | i hope so |
| 23:44 | <gsnedders> | jwalden: Only IE/Metro, IE/Desktop always had the same Flash behaviour |
| 23:45 | <jwalden> | ah |
| 23:45 | jwalden | only remembers vaguenesses from the IE blog |
| 23:50 | <GPHemsley> | Hixie_: How would this differ from DOM and/or UI Events? |
| 23:50 | <GPHemsley> | (And does it warrant its own separate document?) |
| 23:51 | <Hixie_> | GPHemsley: it would differ in that it would define when the events fire. |
| 23:52 | <Hixie_> | GPHemsley: there's nothing currently that says "and when the mouse button is pressed, _fire a click event_ that..." |
| 23:52 | <Hixie_> | or more precisely, that says exactly what order all the relevant events fire in, etc |
| 23:56 | <Hixie_> | interesting. chrome doesn't have plugin.version, which firefox has. |
| 23:56 | <zewt> | good old DOM Events specs |
| 23:57 | <zewt> | i always get wary as soon as I see tables with "Cancelable" and "Bubbles" rows |
| 23:58 | <zewt> | (never mind "Sync/Async" and "Default action" ...) |
| 23:58 | <Hixie_> | oh man |
| 23:58 | <Hixie_> | yes |
| 23:58 | <Hixie_> | so much yes |
| 23:59 | <zewt> | the phrase "default action" needs to be struck from specs, it leads to so much fundamental confusion about how events work |
| 23:59 | <Hixie_> | (re "cancelable", etc: at least in a section claiming to define the event name, and not a particular way the event gets dispatched, which is what HTML tries to do) |