| 00:20 | <rniwa> | Hixie_: I have IE10 |
| 00:21 | <rniwa> | Hixie_: it errors saying "unable to get property 'document' of undefined or null reference" at line 4 |
| 00:22 | <rniwa> | Hixie_: the test ends with "FAIL: DOM did not change" |
| 00:44 | <rafaelw> | Hixie: can you remind me what this was about: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22482 |
| 00:45 | <rafaelw> | Hixie_: ^ |
| 01:32 | <annevk> | thanks TabAtkins, will take a look in the morning |
| 02:41 | <GPHemsley> | Can we just rename CSS to TabAtkins and get it over with? |
| 04:13 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie_: cabanier: did you guys have a chance to chat about DrawCustomFocusRing? |
| 04:19 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: yes |
| 04:19 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: on irc and the mailing list |
| 04:19 | <MikeSmith> | cabanier: ah good |
| 04:19 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: I think the APIs can stand |
| 04:19 | <MikeSmith> | I'm catching up on e-mail now |
| 04:19 | <MikeSmith> | cabanier: why? |
| 04:19 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: but Dominic is still on the fence |
| 04:19 | <MikeSmith> | can you summarize? |
| 04:20 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: it's the same as in the emails. |
| 04:20 | <MikeSmith> | I'll read then |
| 04:20 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: he wanted something new but drawCustomFocusRing actually already does it |
| 04:20 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 04:22 | <MikeSmith> | you do realize that Dominic's implementation can't be considered conformant if it doesn't ship? |
| 04:37 | <cabanier1> | MikeSmith: experimental implementations count |
| 04:38 | <cabanier1> | MikeSmith: I can also ping Apple or the webkit community to land it |
| 04:49 | <Hixie_> | rniwa: wacked. thanks. |
| 04:51 | <Hixie_> | rafaelw: nested <button>s, probably? i dunno. i'm sure it's fixed on the whatwg side. ;-) |
| 04:52 | <Hixie_> | bbiab |
| 08:12 | <zcorpan> | heycam|away: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0003.html |
| 08:13 | <MikeSmith> | I like Roy's template proposal for the responsive images stuff |
| 08:13 | <MikeSmith> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2013Sep/0302.html |
| 08:14 | <MikeSmith> | if the goals are to make the syntax more readable and to use attributes instead of elements |
| 08:34 | <zcorpan> | Hixie_: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23002 (bumping this, seems like high priority) |
| 08:35 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: iirc a template was the first design of srcset but there was some problem with it |
| 08:35 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: ok |
| 08:36 | <zcorpan> | i don't recall exactly what the problem was |
| 08:36 | <MikeSmith> | well clearly there are problems with all of these proposals |
| 08:39 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: so btw is a window object not a representation of a browsing context? |
| 08:39 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: no |
| 08:39 | <MikeSmith> | oh |
| 08:39 | <MikeSmith> | so what is? |
| 08:40 | <zcorpan> | there's no JS-exposed object |
| 08:40 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 08:42 | <zcorpan> | window is the closest thing, but it's complicated. :-) see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/browsers.html#windows |
| 08:42 | <MikeSmith> | so a window just "contains" a browsing context |
| 08:42 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, reading that now |
| 08:44 | <zcorpan> | so iirc the WindowProxy is always the same for a given browing context, but the underlying Window can be swapped out in navigation |
| 08:44 | <zcorpan> | but i might be making that up |
| 08:44 | <MikeSmith> | yeah from reading the spec just now it seems like that's what would be the case |
| 08:45 | <MikeSmith> | that it's one-to-one with its WindowProxy |
| 08:45 | <zcorpan> | yep |
| 08:46 | <zcorpan> | anyway, a window doesn't have an origin either |
| 08:46 | <zcorpan> | document does |
| 08:47 | <zcorpan> | so if you want "origin of a given browsing context", you'd probably say "origin of a given browsing context's active document" |
| 08:48 | <MikeSmith> | is that the origin that window.location provides? |
| 08:50 | <zcorpan> | no, i think location.origin gives the origin of the location.href URL |
| 08:51 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 08:55 | <zcorpan> | but maybe it should give the document's origin instead |
| 08:55 | zcorpan | files a bug |
| 09:04 | <zcorpan> | https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23406 |
| 09:11 | <MikeSmith> | I would Cc myself on that one.. |
| 09:31 | zcorpan | finds http://cssdeck.com/ which uses cont.style.setProperty('display', 'block', '!important'); - the bang should be omitted |
| 09:34 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: I think "you have to generate 128 images" is not going to fly with authors, even if photoshop does it automatically |
| 09:35 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: yeah, agreed about that |
| 09:35 | <MikeSmith> | for sure |
| 09:35 | <MikeSmith> | and maybe that was the same problem with the template idea that came up back when it was first proposed |
| 10:42 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: I sent you an email. A response would be nice this week. :) |
| 11:06 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: ack |
| 13:51 | <zcorpan> | i don't know where to start with filling in the blanks in this section... http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#the-geometryutils-interface |
| 13:56 | <Ms2ger`> | zcorpan, leave it to the GeometryOM spec :) |
| 13:58 | <zcorpan> | Ms2ger`: that doesn't help because (a) that section isn't moving there and (b) i'll be editing that too |
| 14:02 | <zcorpan> | but i guess i can procrastinate by shuffling things between specs, switching to bikeshed, work on critic backlog, play flash games, eat beer sausages, etc |
| 14:03 | <jgraham> | "beer sasuages" |
| 14:03 | <jgraham> | That's a German thing, right? |
| 14:03 | <zcorpan> | yeah i think so |
| 14:04 | <zcorpan> | bought 10 of those at a market the other day |
| 14:05 | <MikeSmith> | I vote for critic backlog |
| 14:05 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: btw please add a priority flag in critic |
| 14:06 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: For what purpose? |
| 14:07 | <odinho> | what's your use case? |
| 14:07 | <MikeSmith> | for me to up-prioritize all things I submit for review |
| 14:07 | <MikeSmith> | jump the queue |
| 14:07 | <jgraham> | (the intention is that you don't have a 6 month+ review backlog, so we are clearly already doing it wrong. But if you need something urgently looked at, out of band communication/guilt tripping seems more likely to be effective) |
| 14:07 | <jgraham> | Sigh |
| 14:08 | <MikeSmith> | bubble up |
| 14:08 | <jgraham> | I have now got all my changes to wpt serve so intermingled that it will be more effort than I am willing to spend to reconstruct a reasonable history |
| 14:10 | jgraham | gives up |
| 14:11 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: you mean the commits you already made? |
| 14:11 | <MikeSmith> | or otherwise, you can't do the git add -p thing? |
| 14:14 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: Yeah, add -p sort of works, except I have "conflicts" i.e. multiple logically seperate changes touching the same line of code |
| 14:15 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: any reason to not use html5lib test format for the NCR tests? |
| 14:17 | <wilhelm_> | Boom? |
| 14:18 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: there's a button to ping a review, but in my case i'm as unlikely to read the ping email as the original new review email |
| 14:18 | <jgraham> | Is it some Google policy to use irccloud? |
| 14:19 | <jgraham> | That took out most of their employees |
| 14:19 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: "[cc]" is useful for me to find your reviews, though |
| 14:23 | <SimonSapin> | jgraham: maybe because chromebooks can not use local IRC clients? |
| 14:24 | <odinho> | Yea. But there's an irc extension tho, isn't there? |
| 14:24 | <SimonSapin> | dunno |
| 14:24 | <jgraham> | Surely they aren't all actually using ChromePooks |
| 14:24 | <jgraham> | *ChromeBooks |
| 14:26 | <SimonSapin> | not all, but enough to seem most of your biased sample? :) |
| 14:27 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: the NCR tests are meant to be used directly with the validator |
| 14:28 | <zcorpan> | https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/339 vs https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/340 confuses me a bit |
| 14:29 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: last time I looked at the html5lib tests, it seemed like there was some pre-processing step I needed to run to get actual HTML from them. Or that that HTML is just generated in memory or whatever and fed to the test runner |
| 14:30 | <MikeSmith> | I'm happy to use the html5lib format if it can be used directly with the validator |
| 14:30 | <MikeSmith> | like, as a static file that I can put a URL to point the validator to |
| 14:31 | <MikeSmith> | (though what the validator test runner actually does is to read the files locally) |
| 14:32 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: yeah, i guess you would need to generate HTML from them. are the existing html5lib tests not interesting for the validator to make it worthwhile to write that script and fix the #errors data? |
| 14:34 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: I think the PR you just merged is wrong |
| 14:34 | <jgraham> | It isn't *more* wrong than the existing code, so no real harm done |
| 14:34 | <jgraham> | But still |
| 14:34 | zcorpan | goes to play flash games |
| 14:34 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: no, I think they are actually intereesting for the validator. I was just being lazy in not wanting to bother to figure out how to generate static HTML from them |
| 14:34 | <jgraham> | /resources/WebIDLParser.js doesn't exist. Except in some places like w3c-test.org |
| 14:35 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: ok. fair enough, and i guess that doesn't need to block the PR |
| 14:35 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: so what's correct? |
| 14:35 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: Good question |
| 14:36 | <jgraham> | /resources/webidl2/lib/webidl2.js really exists |
| 14:36 | <jgraham> | And is the new code |
| 14:36 | <jgraham> | But a) the URL is horrible and b) it's not really clear to me if the tests need to be updated |
| 14:36 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: yeah I guess I could land those in the PR for now and deal with porting the html5lib ones later |
| 14:38 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: can you file a bug on web-platform-tests or something about this so it's less likely we forget about this? |
| 14:39 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: There is https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/7289dbaa?review=340 as well |
| 14:40 | <jgraham> | Uh, the review not that commit in particular |
| 14:40 | <jgraham> | Basically we should just decide if that URL is OK |
| 14:40 | <jgraham> | Or if we want to introduce some kind of static URL map to wptserve |
| 14:41 | <jgraham> | (which would block fixing this issue on me, although w3c-test.org could use a symlink in the meantime) |
| 15:21 | <MikeSmith> | I can make w3c-test.org symlinks as easily as making silver-dollar pancakes |
| 15:27 | jgraham | wonders how easily that is |
| 15:27 | <jgraham> | Anyway w3c-test.org-specific solutions are not OK |
| 17:33 | <annevk> | Hixie_: https://github.com/dslomov-chromium/ecmascript-structured-clone |
| 17:33 | <annevk> | zcorpan: ^^ |
| 17:52 | <smaug____> | why is there PortCollection object? |
| 17:52 | <smaug____> | what exposes gc behavior to scripts |
| 17:52 | <Hixie_> | actually it's carefully designed not to expose gc behaviour |
| 17:52 | <Hixie_> | that's the whole point :-) |
| 17:52 | <jgraham> | Hixie_: Pretty sure you could argue that crashing might be allowed under the hardware limitations clause :) e.g. if the OS automatically kills processes that use too much memory |
| 17:53 | <Hixie_> | heh |
| 17:53 | <Hixie_> | i guess |
| 17:53 | <smaug____> | Hixie_: it does |
| 17:53 | <Hixie_> | jgraham: that's not the case bz is talking about, though, i'd guess :-) |
| 17:53 | <Hixie_> | smaug____: how? |
| 17:53 | <Hixie_> | smaug____: if it does, that's a bug |
| 17:54 | <smaug____> | Hixie_: you run it using a timer occasionally to detect when certain port has been collected |
| 17:54 | <jgraham> | Hixie_: It's hard to know what the actual use case is since no one has said yet |
| 17:56 | <smaug____> | s/run/iterate/ |
| 17:56 | <Hixie_> | smaug____: the port won't be collected so long as the other port exists |
| 17:56 | <smaug____> | what other port |
| 17:56 | <Hixie_> | smaug____: a message port is entangled with another message port. so long as the other isn't GC'ed, the former won't be ethir. |
| 17:56 | <Hixie_> | either. |
| 17:56 | <Hixie_> | message ports keep each other alive. |
| 17:57 | <smaug____> | that doesn't matter |
| 17:57 | <Hixie_> | smaug____: hm, i guess you're right. you could send a message out and just wait for the message to no longer come out. |
| 17:58 | <Hixie_> | *shrug* |
| 17:58 | <smaug____> | var p = PortCollection(); var c = new MessageChannel(); p.add(c.port0); p.add(c.port); |
| 17:58 | <smaug____> | er, port1 |
| 17:58 | <smaug____> | then iterate the ports in p |
| 17:58 | <smaug____> | using a timer |
| 17:58 | <smaug____> | at some point the ports disappear |
| 17:59 | <Hixie_> | sure |
| 17:59 | <Hixie_> | i'm happy to consider other ways to address this use case if you can think of one |
| 18:00 | <Hixie_> | this doesn't let you detect the exact moment GC happens, but it's true that it does let you tell a range between which GC happened. |
| 18:00 | <smaug____> | well, remove PortCollection |
| 18:00 | <Hixie_> | that doesn't exactly handle the use case well |
| 18:00 | <jgraham> | I thought the problem with GC was not "I can tell the exact moment", but more "pages might rely on the specifies of GC in one implemetation" |
| 18:00 | <smaug____> | exactly |
| 18:01 | <Hixie_> | specifics = exact, no? |
| 18:01 | <Hixie_> | again, i'm happy to consider alternatives. |
| 18:01 | <jgraham> | Not really |
| 18:01 | <jgraham> | It only has to be exact enough that the difference is observed some noticable fraction of the time |
| 18:02 | smaug____ | doesn't understand the use cases for PortCollection |
| 18:02 | <Hixie_> | smaug____: you want to broadcast a message to many ports, but you don't want to prevent them from being GC'ed. For example, you're a shared worker and you want to keep all your clients up to date with what the server is telling you. |
| 18:03 | <jgraham> | It feels like there are two mutually exclusive goals there |
| 18:04 | <Hixie_> | yes, hence the current design being a compromise between them |
| 18:04 | <jgraham> | (hopefully not though, but I don't have a good idea) |
| 18:05 | <jgraham> | Anyway, I have to go, but the ability to improve GC behaviour transparently has been a big win in recent times. We should be super-careful about giving up that freedom |
| 18:05 | <smaug____> | shouldn't we have a PortCollection which doesn't expose iterate() |
| 18:06 | <smaug____> | basically PortCollection which just has postMessage or some such |
| 18:07 | <Hixie_> | smaug____: you can still detect the time range of GC that way |
| 18:07 | <Hixie_> | smaug____: just see if you receive the message |
| 18:07 | <smaug____> | indeed |
| 18:08 | <annevk> | Can people take a look at the HTML imports stuff please? And in particular https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21976 |
| 18:08 | <annevk> | It seems like some of the Chrome guys are proposing some kind of hackish design. |
| 18:20 | <zcorpan> | what should i do about the identical members of these interfaces? http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#the-domrect-and-domrectreadonly-interfaces - move to a new interface like DOMRectBase and let them inherit from that? or [NoInterfaceObject] + implements? |
| 18:21 | <annevk> | the latter is what DOM uses |
| 18:22 | <zcorpan> | why? |
| 18:23 | <annevk> | seems close to what JavaScript does |
| 18:30 | <zcorpan> | like toString()? |
| 18:31 | <annevk> | zcorpan: having generic methods that operate on multiple objects |
| 18:31 | <annevk> | zcorpan: e.g. the way some ArrayBuffer stuff is copied from Array |
| 18:34 | <zcorpan> | any opinion on what to call the interface to hold the top/right/bottom/left members? |
| 18:36 | <annevk> | zcorpan: it's nointerface so... AbstractRect ? |
| 18:37 | <annevk> | zcorpan: having a distinct term for origin might be nice |
| 18:37 | <annevk> | zcorpan: nothing comes to mind :/ |
| 18:37 | <zcorpan> | origin coordinates? |
| 18:38 | <zcorpan> | that seems not quite right |
| 18:39 | <annevk> | grounding? hmm |
| 18:39 | <annevk> | SVG uses origin for this too? |
| 18:40 | <annevk> | it does |
| 19:00 | <zcorpan> | [NoInterfaceObject] + implements is equivalent to repeating the members in both interfaces, at least in the JS binding, right? |
| 19:05 | <Ms2ger`> | Yes |
| 19:30 | <zcorpan> | there, now i've said on www-style that i don't know what i'm doing, i guess i can call it a day |
| 19:37 | <miketaylr> | zcorpan: careful, they might make you chair |
| 19:37 | miketaylr | ducks |
| 20:07 | <rektide> | CSSStyleDeclaration.hasProperty what in the haystack why are you NOT a thing |
| 20:09 | <rektide> | ok i guess the value i'm expecting it to return i'm expecting to be some kind of class list thing |
| 20:12 | <rektide> | wow the matrix transform between .transition and .transition-property is a living hell |
| 20:12 | <rektide> | got help anyone brave enough to meddle with individual tokens in the transition-{property,delay,duration} rowization, brave crazy soul |
| 20:20 | <Domenic_> | zcorpan: annevk: I tried to implement roc's suggestion in JS and it was not great: https://gist.github.com/domenic/6736258 I guess you could insert more branding checks in the setters. |
| 20:30 | <annevk> | Domenic_: doesn't look too bad? |
| 20:36 | <Domenic_> | annevk: yeah, except for the branding checks I guess. I suppose I should add those so it's clearer. |
| 20:41 | <Domenic_> | annevk: https://gist.github.com/domenic/6736258 |
| 20:43 | <annevk> | zcorpan: could you check "!/" as sub-path separator? |
| 20:43 | <annevk> | wycats: ^^ zcorpan did checking |
| 20:44 | <annevk> | Domenic_: can't you define an anonymous function in DOMRectMutable2 that does a lot of the boilerplate? |
| 20:45 | <Domenic_> | annevk: what do you mean? |
| 20:48 | <annevk> | something you pass prop and value and that does function blah (prop, value) { assertBranded(this); privates.get(this)[prop] = +value } |
| 20:55 | <Domenic_> | sure, although i'd also make it pass `this` so that you avoid having an observable member function |
| 21:00 | <Hixie_> | bholley: you around to resume our talk about https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20701 ? |
| 21:00 | <bholley> | Hixie_: do you mind waiting a week? We've got a mozilla summit in brussels starting on thursday and I need to finish prepping my talk |
| 21:01 | <Hixie_> | sure, i'm in no rush |
| 21:01 | <bholley> | Hixie_: cool. I'll ping you next week :-) |
| 21:01 | <Hixie_> | unfortunately i forgot where we got to in our last discussion :-( |
| 21:01 | <Hixie_> | (i was going to update the bug accordingly) |
| 21:01 | <bholley> | Hixie_: it's ok. I think it'll be helpful to review it all next week anyway |
| 21:02 | <Hixie_> | k |
| 21:02 | <Hixie_> | (see also mail i just sent you) |
| 21:02 | <Hixie_> | (also no rush) |
| 21:05 | <Hixie_> | i wish there was a way to archive bug comments, or close them or something, so you could view the bug with only the "latest thinking" |
| 21:05 | <Hixie_> | some of these bugs are out of hand |