04:53
<MikeSmith>
for using <link> to register a service worker, if it has <link scope=""...> what does the SW’s scope url get set to? the document’s base URL?
04:53
<MikeSmith>
https://w3c.github.io/ServiceWorker/#ref-for-element-attrdef-link-scope-2
04:53
<MikeSmith>
> If the scope attribute is present, set scopeURL to the result of parsing the scope attribute with the link element’s node document’s document base URL.
04:54
<MikeSmith>
so as far as document conformance, should scope="" be allowed?
04:55
<MikeSmith>
and should it be allowed to contained leading/trailing space?
04:57
<MikeSmith>
in other words should it be a >valid URL< or a >valid URL potentially surrounded by spaces< or a >valid non-empty URL< or a >valid non-empty URL potentially surrounded by spaces<
05:16
<Domenic>
MikeSmith: I would base that decision on precedent of other such URLs, e.g. link href=""
05:16
<Domenic>
Off the top of my head I would guess "valid URL" but I don't know when we allow surrounding spaces in general
05:17
<Domenic>
I don't think the empty string should be excluded
05:17
<MikeSmith>
Domenic: thanks
07:58
<annevk>
https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/platform/issues/10552455/ \o/
07:58
<annevk>
First Edge bug I filed that is fixed I think
07:59
<annevk>
And if it's actually fixed, that's a rather big one as it changes quite a few things
07:59
<annevk>
But I wonder if they fixed it in depth or just surface
08:44
<yoav>
annevk: Morning! Was https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/issues/486#issuecomment-278880798 directed at me or at Domenic?
08:45
<annevk>
yoav: nobody in particular
08:46
<yoav>
annevk: Did you refer to type handling in option (1) or option (2)?
08:46
<annevk>
yoav: just got curious about it, since <link rel=preload> is just a high-level API in the end and it needs to map to fetch() somehow
08:46
<annevk>
yoav: I guess 2, since 1 doesn't have a type attribute
08:47
<annevk>
yoav: the parenthesis bit was about both though
08:47
<yoav>
OK, I think I understand your question, I'll answer on the issue
09:08
<annevk>
tobie: wow, you fixed all the nits with PR preview
09:08
<annevk>
tobie: and you improved upon my wording too
09:08
<annevk>
tobie: really cool
09:15
<annevk>
yoav: thanks
09:16
<annevk>
yoav: I guess I maintain that Node.js was right, they should have had their own MIME type
09:16
<annevk>
yoav: but I suspect that will never fly with the JavaScript folks
09:16
<annevk>
yoav: ugh, such a mess
09:17
<yoav>
annevk: I'm in favor of them being their own destination
09:17
<annevk>
yoav: given that MIME type is unlikely to be an option here, agreed
09:18
<yoav>
also spent a few hours last week discussing how modules would actually be loaded in browsers, and I agree with your "ugh"
09:18
<annevk>
heh
09:19
<annevk>
yoav: btw, there is an HTML modules outline online, but it's dated perhaps
09:20
<annevk>
yoav: https://github.com/w3c/webcomponents/blob/gh-pages/proposals/HTML-Imports-and-ES-Modules.md
09:20
<yoav>
pointer? "HTML modules" is ungoogleable
09:20
<yoav>
cool, thanks
09:56
<yoav>
annevk: Unrelated, but is there a notion of "supported mime type" that I can link to from a spec?
10:00
<annevk>
yoav: what does that mean?
10:03
<yoav>
e.g. "image/webp" supported in an image destination context in Chrome, but not in WebKit
10:03
<yoav>
I guess it's slightly related
10:03
<yoav>
I'm trying to fix the preload spec to define what `type` currently does
10:04
<yoav>
annevk: I have no trouble defining what `media` does (which was off as well), but not sure where mime types are defined in the platform
10:04
<annevk>
We don't have overarching terminology for that I think
10:05
<yoav>
hmm
10:05
<annevk>
We do have terminology for media in HTML
10:05
<annevk>
MIME types are somewhat defined in https://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/ but they're not at all interoperable
10:05
<annevk>
But specific MIME types varies a lot
10:05
<yoav>
OK, I'll take a look
10:06
<annevk>
E.g., image loading ignores MIME types generally, even X-Content-Type-Options doesn't change that
10:06
<annevk>
The only MIME type image loading looks for is image/svg+xml
10:06
<yoav>
https://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/#supported-by-the-user-agent
10:06
<yoav>
I don't care about mime types in processing the response
10:06
<annevk>
Interesting, I guess that does do what you want
10:06
<yoav>
just need them in order to avoid sending the request
10:06
<annevk>
But again, I wonder if that's implemented as-is
10:06
<annevk>
But maybe if we just start using it at some point it will be
10:07
<yoav>
yeah.
10:07
<yoav>
It's way better than what I have now in preload, which is nothing...
10:07
<annevk>
heh
10:08
<annevk>
My main problem with that spec is that we don't have active maintenance, solid testsuite, and commitments from implementers
10:08
<annevk>
But some parts of it do, so we can't just scrap it, it does actually define some underpinnings
10:09
<yoav>
yeah, not ideal
10:10
<AutomatedTester>
morning all, in specs, do we need to link to a definition of what a promise is or is it accepted that everyone knows what it is?
10:10
<AutomatedTester>
I noticed Fetch doesnt link to Promises
10:11
<AutomatedTester>
so not sure what i should do in WebDriver.
10:13
<zcorpan>
tobie: how do i propose changes to https://www.w3.org/2016/10/htmldiff-nav.js ?
10:15
<tobie>
zcorpan: oh boy
10:15
<annevk>
AutomatedTester: it's a problem IDL needs to solve at some point
10:15
<annevk>
AutomatedTester: the current solution is to assume everyone knows
10:15
<AutomatedTester>
annevk: ok, I will go with the current solution then :)
10:15
<tobie>
zcorpan: fork https://gist.github.com/tobie/39c068f2b58422b5d20a5e24941c9f17 and the email dom?
10:16
<tobie>
s/the/then/
10:16
<tobie>
what is it you want to change?
10:16
<zcorpan>
tobie: outline instead of border
10:17
<zcorpan>
tobie: there's also ":focus { border: thin red solid}" in the diff stylesheet inserted for the url standard, which seems unnecessary
10:18
<annevk>
zcorpan: you're making the diff thing even better? Hurray
10:19
<annevk>
tobie: I guess diffing for HTML would be hard to provide, right?
10:19
<tobie>
zcorpan: I have some weird spacing around links in the WebIDL spec too.
10:20
<tobie>
zcorpan: e.g.: https://s3.amazonaws.com/pr-preview/heycam/webidl/3834774..tobie:interface-objs:7dfd134.html#dfn-serialization-behavior
10:21
<tobie>
zcorpan: look how the link underlining bleeds.
10:21
<zcorpan>
tobie: that seems like a problem of the differ, not a styling problem
10:22
<tobie>
zcorpan: :(
10:22
<zcorpan>
tobie: it inserts a newline before </ins> or </del>.
10:23
<zcorpan>
and possibly in general lots of newlines
10:23
<tobie>
zcorpan: oh well.
10:24
<tobie>
zcorpan: I can totally live with this. :)
10:24
<zcorpan>
would be better if it inserted newlines right before ">" to avoid messing with the Infoset
10:25
<zcorpan>
where is the source for the differ?
10:25
<tobie>
zcorpan: I think the underlying lib is an old C program.
10:26
<tobie>
zcorpan: it's gnu diff: https://services.w3.org/htmldiff
10:26
<tobie>
annevk: not sure what you mean by diffing for html
10:27
<annevk>
tobie: HTML Standard
10:27
<tobie>
annevk: oh!
10:28
<annevk>
There's only one, so HTML is totally unambiguous, right?
10:29
<tobie>
annevk: yeah, I could special case granted there's a Web service I can use for the build
10:29
<tobie>
annevk: or I can run the software to build it on the heroku platform
10:30
<annevk>
tobie: we do have that, the real nice thing to offer would be multipage diffing, with links only to the multipage files that changed
10:30
<annevk>
Not sure how many stretch goals we want though
10:31
<annevk>
tobie: having this for the smaller specs is already amazing
10:31
<annevk>
tobie: this is a big complaint from folks we ask to review
10:31
<tobie>
annevk: I built it for reviewing WebIDL PRs
10:32
<tobie>
annevk: there was no way I could be effective reviewing stuff otherwise
10:32
<annevk>
tobie: glad you did
10:32
<tobie>
annevk: wrt to HTML, I don't think it would be too hard to build the multipage thing
10:34
<tobie>
annevk: but I don't want to focus on that just now
10:55
<zcorpan>
annevk: i'm pretty sure HTML standard is too big for htmldiff :-(
10:56
<annevk>
zcorpan: multipage HTML wouldn't be?
10:56
<zcorpan>
ah right. yeah multipage would probably work fine
10:56
<annevk>
Anyway, seems like something to tackle later when there's revived interest
10:57
<annevk>
Meanwhile we can add this feature to other WHATWG standards if nobody has issues with the way it works for the URL Standard
11:07
smaug
finds the most bizarre spec language
11:07
<smaug>
"Every millisecond, as long as the stop timeout flag is unset, queue a microtask to run these subsubsubsteps: "
11:08
<annevk>
smaug: that looks buggy
11:08
<smaug>
using microtask there is wrong
11:09
<tobie>
annevk: if you can wait a bit before you extend to other specs, it would be amazing.
11:09
<annevk>
Doing something every millisecond also seems suspicious
11:09
<annevk>
tobie: sure, ping me whenever
11:10
<smaug>
https://github.com/whatwg/xhr/issues/112
11:14
<annevk>
smaug: heh, I wonder if I wrote that
11:15
<annevk>
zcorpan: what does w3c-test:mirror do? Make the bot upload the PR to WPT?
11:15
<smaug>
that happens. Looking at the blame in Gecko wondering who has written some odd stuff and realizing hey, it was me :)
11:15
<annevk>
zcorpan: to w3c-test.org?
11:15
<zcorpan>
annevk: yes
11:15
<annevk>
zcorpan: cool
11:16
<annevk>
smaug: turns out I wrote it two years ago
11:18
<zcorpan>
"Every full moon, queue a microtask..."
11:18
<annevk>
smaug: so I think the reason it does it that way is to able to check the current value of the timeout attribute
11:19
<annevk>
smaug: but it's indeed rather silly, having said that, I don't immediately know what a good fix would be, defining timers isn't easy
11:20
<smaug>
why is that using microtasks?
11:21
<smaug>
I doubt browsers use microtask there
11:21
<annevk>
smaug: I suspect browsers proxy the other way, message whenever timeout updates
11:21
<annevk>
smaug: instead of polling it every second
11:22
<smaug>
yeah, fire a timeout which queues a task to cancel the fetch
11:23
<annevk>
smaug: so you have a "process" that runs the timer
11:23
<annevk>
smaug: but then whenever the timeout attribute is set, that influences when the timer is done
11:23
<annevk>
smaug: so those two things need to talk to each other in some way
11:23
<smaug>
if timeout attribute is set to a new value, the previous timer is cancelled and new one created
11:25
<annevk>
smaug: wait so if you start with 2000 and then set timeout to 3000 at 1000, you'd effectively allow the request to go for 4000?
11:25
<annevk>
smaug: I thought the idea was 3000
11:25
<smaug>
when doing reset, you do take into account the time already spent after send
11:26
<annevk>
okay
11:26
<annevk>
I guess I should define something more aligned with that model then, seems reasonable and doable
11:27
<smaug>
how does html spec define setTimeout handling... /me reads
11:31
<smaug>
"wait ... timeout milliseconds"
11:33
<annevk>
Yeah, that's probably reasonable, but we'll need to store how many milliseconds have passed when we reset
11:33
<annevk>
Arguably we should define an abstraction that both standards could use, but maybe not for now
11:54
<zcorpan>
who has an iphone and can test http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/4882
11:57
<zcorpan>
(interested in whether the native controls have an airplay button for one but not the other)
12:02
<zcorpan>
hmm maybe it should be x-webkit-wirelessvideoplaybackdisabled or disableremoteplayback these days
12:09
<annevk>
zcorpan: big play buttons
12:10
<zcorpan>
annevk: and when you play?
12:12
<zcorpan>
I see now that disableRemotePlayback has already been discussed in https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/2293 so what I wanted to get to is not really relevant
12:12
<annevk>
zcorpan: only the first goes through Apple TV display wise
12:12
<zcorpan>
annevk: ok, thanks
12:12
<annevk>
zcorpan: both are happy to play sound over it
12:12
<annevk>
https://irccloud.mozilla.com/file/mm8hohrV/IMG_4367.PNG
12:12
<zcorpan>
intredasting
12:12
<annevk>
As you can see rendering is also somewhat different
12:13
<annevk>
Finally a way to listen to hsivonen in the living room
12:14
<Ms2ger>
That's what any home needs
12:29
<MikeSmith>
😆
12:45
<MikeSmith>
hah maybe Henry Story can lobby Trump to sign an Executive Order requiring all browsers to fully implement <keygen> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!msg/blink-dev/z_qEpmzzKh8/2hkaJdtsCAAJ
13:09
<zcorpan>
annevk: why is https:example.org without base valid?
13:12
<annevk>
zcorpan: it's not
13:12
<zcorpan>
annevk: then https://url.spec.whatwg.org//branch-snapshots/annevk/validity-example/#example-url-parsing is wrong :-)
13:13
<annevk>
yeah
13:13
<annevk>
zcorpan: only that first one, right?
13:13
<annevk>
fixing
13:14
<zcorpan>
annevk: i think so. but haven't tried to verify that the others match the normative text
13:30
<annevk>
zcorpan: thanks for the additional examples, adding them now
13:52
<zcorpan>
lol annevk/url-ß
13:53
<zcorpan>
at least good to see github seems to handle it
13:54
<annevk>
💩 is next, just need a good PR for it
14:24
<MikeSmith>
annevk: other than XHR and fetch() and the crossorigin attribute, are there any other cases where browsers will use the CORS protocol?
14:24
<annevk>
MikeSmith: @font-face
14:24
<MikeSmith>
ah yeah
14:24
<MikeSmith>
OK, that’s the whole list?
14:25
<MikeSmith>
(currently)
14:25
<annevk>
MikeSmith: <script type=module>, new [Shared]Worker(..., { type:"module" })
14:25
<MikeSmith>
ah
14:25
<MikeSmith>
OK
14:25
<annevk>
MikeSmith: sendBeacon() sometimes, maybe, though not sure if implemented
14:26
<annevk>
MikeSmith: there might be more, I haven't been keeping a list
14:26
<MikeSmith>
thanks
14:26
<MikeSmith>
I may actually try to a list together, at MDN I guess
14:29
<annevk>
jgraham: gsnedders: if as per foolip, we just want it branded "web-platform-tests" we should just start using that everywhere
14:29
<annevk>
jgraham: gsnedders: that will make things easier to find too
14:30
<gsnedders>
annevk: ??
14:33
<jgraham>
annevk: I already use web-platform-tests everywhere I think?
14:33
<jgraham>
annevk: I mean testthewebforward is legacy
14:33
<jgraham>
What else did you have in mind?
14:34
<gsnedders>
I have no idea what per foolip this is, nor any other context for this.
14:35
<annevk>
jgraham: README of https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests
14:42
<jgraham>
annevk: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/4796 r?
14:44
<gsnedders>
is there no way to have keyboard accessible drop-down menus without JS? :(
14:49
<zcorpan>
gsnedders: maybe with :focus-within
14:50
<gsnedders>
zcorpan: yeah, that would work, once that ships
15:04
<zcorpan>
make sure https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=617371 has >= 32 stars
15:06
<gsnedders>
because stars definitely mean it'll get done :P
15:16
<annevk>
jgraham: r+
15:16
<annevk>
jgraham: are the CSS tests not integrated these days btw?
15:17
<gsnedders>
annevk: in w-p-t? no
15:29
<gsnedders>
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21058885/align-bullet-points-to-the-right-instead-of-left is marginally scary
15:46
<Domenic>
annevk: how sure are you that the definitions in https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#valid-url-string match the various validation errors sprinkled throughout the parser?
15:47
<Domenic>
It seems fragile to have two entirely separate ways of defining valid URL string
15:48
<annevk>
Domenic: that's what HTML does
15:48
<annevk>
Domenic: I don't disagree, but I don't really see a better way
15:48
<Domenic>
I see
15:48
<Domenic>
I mean you could literally just define valid URL string to be any string on which running the parser produces no failures or validation errors :)
15:48
<annevk>
Domenic: you both want to make it easy for producers, but you also want to make it easy for consumers to flag errors in input
15:48
<annevk>
Domenic: I don't think that would make people happy
15:49
<Domenic>
Probably not
15:49
<Domenic>
I guess this is susceptible to automated testing
15:49
<Domenic>
Implement some "fuzzer" that generates URL strings based on the URL string rules, and run them through the parser
15:49
<Domenic>
Then try to use some algorithm to depart from the rules and check that they always trigger validation errors or failures
15:49
<annevk>
Yeah, sounds reasonable for a "some day" project
16:27
<jgraham>
annevk: gsnedders promises by the end of the month
16:29
gsnedders
cries
16:41
<annevk>
😊👍
17:02
<tobie>
annevk: wrt to pr-preview, you mentioned you had a (web?) service to build the HTML spec with. Can it return a multipage version? Is it aware which pages have changed?
17:03
<Domenic>
yes and no
17:03
<Domenic>
also at this moment it doesn't actually do the build, just does the wattsi step
17:04
<Domenic>
but that's fixable
17:32
<annevk>
Domenic: did you look at the PR tool already in the URL Standard?
17:32
<Domenic>
Not realy
17:32
<annevk>
Domenic: please take a look, it basically modifies OP of PRs with links
17:37
<annevk>
Domenic: only enabled on URL as a trial, but if we all like it I want it everywhere (I like it a lot)
17:38
<jyasskin>
annevk: Is that the tool tobie's been using on WebIDL too? (e.g. https://github.com/heycam/webidl/pull/304)
17:38
<annevk>
jyasskin: yeah, with slight WHATWG tweaks
17:39
<jyasskin>
I like it.
17:39
<annevk>
😊
17:44
<tobie>
jyasskin: it's the same tool. Cleaned up and turned into a push button install thanks to GH launching integrations in beta.
18:15
<Domenic>
So does anyone have Edge _Insider_?
18:27
<Domenic>
jyasskin: wait, did you ever end up using record<> in any of your specs?
18:29
<jyasskin>
Domenic: I haven't chagned https://webbluetoothcg.github.io/web-bluetooth/#dictdef-bluetoothlescanfilterinit to use it yet, but the two objects should be records.
18:29
<Domenic>
Ah OK :)
19:17
<annevk>
miketaylr: FWIW, I assume returnValue made a comeback due to WebKit/Chromium
19:18
<miketaylr>
annevk: yeah, fair assumption
19:18
<annevk>
miketaylr: doesn't seem worth it to get three browsers to change as it's rather easy for Firefox to adjust there (and likely better for us even if we haven't heard anything)
19:19
<miketaylr>
i don't doubt that there is bustage out there.
20:34
<AutomatedTester>
whats the best way to describe putting an argument in a Promise declaration. e.g. the function in new Promise(function(res, rej) {....})
20:36
<TabAtkins>
AutomatedTester: A callback argument?
20:36
<TabAtkins>
(Not sure what context you're asking from, so I'm unsure what sort of suggestion to give.)
20:37
<AutomatedTester>
TabAtkins: I am trying to spec out https://gist.github.com/AutomatedTester/1405a0036ccb13dc14504a709756c184 essentially
20:38
<AutomatedTester>
TabAtkins: I am not sure if I need to describe the callback
20:38
<AutomatedTester>
or if its just a given..
20:38
<TabAtkins>
Depends on your audience, honestly.
20:38
<AutomatedTester>
browser vendors
20:39
<AutomatedTester>
its for part of webdriver
20:39
<TabAtkins>
Browser vendors don't need to have the basic working of Promises explained, so you can omit that.
20:39
<AutomatedTester>
awesome
20:39
<TabAtkins>
(Note that your code doesn't actually take onSuccess and onFailure as arguments.)
20:40
<AutomatedTester>
I realised it wasnt right but the "gist" of the gist is the right direction
20:40
<AutomatedTester>
if that makes any sense :D
20:40
<TabAtkins>
k ^_^
20:40
<AutomatedTester>
thanks for the help, I appreciate it
20:51
<Domenic>
AutomatedTester: hopefully no new APIs are being specified with callback arguments instead of promise-returning, even in webdriver...
20:52
<AutomatedTester>
Domenic: this is not external facing
20:52
<AutomatedTester>
its making sure that our executeScript API can handle promises properly
20:52
<Domenic>
I guess I am confused why it needs a spec then
20:53
<AutomatedTester>
Domenic: part of it relied on a user passing in a callback, we are now moving it to allow people to pass in a promise
20:54
<Domenic>
Hmm OK, I don't quite understand, but am happy to trust you with the details :)
21:30
<MassDebates>
So uh
21:30
<MassDebates>
Am I supposed to ask here for an account?
21:32
<Domenic>
MassDebates: for the wiki? Sure, what do you want to edit?
21:37
<MassDebates>
I'm not entirely sure. After checking out the history of the two orgs I want to contribute, but I only want to contribute in ways that I best can. I don't think I can provide much help in regards to directly writing spec, but I'm a darned good copy editor. I have a big passion for CSS and I enjoy playing with advanced CSS. I don't see a listing for
21:37
<MassDebates>
CSS specifically in the specifications developed aside from HTML.
21:38
<kbrosnan>
css largely goes through the w3c
21:38
<MassDebates>
I enjoy doing demos and test cases that involve HTML and CSS, and I'm pretty good with HTML, too.
21:39
<MassDebates>
That being said, I think that I can contribute to HTML and -
21:40
<MassDebates>
kbrosnan: Yes, I'm aware, which is why I mentioned that I checked out the spec listings to see. When I saw that you guys didn't have it there, I realized that I may not be AS helpful, but I think I still can provide something of value to the org
21:43
<MassDebates>
That being said, I think that I can contribute to HTML and the wiki in general, but I might be mistaken. I don't really need access to an account or anything if there's sensitive material. Just want to help by doing what I enjoy
21:49
<kbrosnan>
i'm not a gatekeeper here. just happen to work on a browser and know several of the active people in this channel
21:51
<MassDebates>
I understand. I'm not treating this like an interview. I want you to know the context of why I came here.
21:51
<MassDebates>
I guess I'm trying to ask what you think I'll be able to help out with.
21:52
<TabAtkins>
MassDebates: Copy-editing of our CSS specs <https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/>; in the form of PRs is always appreciated.
21:53
<TabAtkins>
I merge wording fixes as fast as I see them, usually.
21:55
<MassDebates>
Looking now
21:56
<MassDebates>
Okay, sounds good.
21:56
<MassDebates>
Thanks!
22:16
<astearns>
MassDebates: also https://github.com/w3c/fxtf-drafts
22:19
<MassDebates>
Oooh
22:19
<MassDebates>
Now that's much more interesting
22:19
<MassDebates>
I will do both though.
23:16
<Domenic>
MassDebates: sorry I switched away from this tab. Happy to help you get a wiki account, drop me a private message with your email address you want to use. Also feel free to submit PRs to specs; we try to label bugs as such e.g. https://github.com/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22good+first+bug%22+user%3Awhatwg