| 04:09 | <Yuhong> | "I think you'll find nobody in the WHATWG believes that's a useful thing to capture," |
| 04:09 | <Yuhong> | What are the problems with it? |
| 05:04 | <MikeSmith> | I wonder if somebody on the channel complained to freenode about botie |
| 05:05 | <MikeSmith> | I got a message from freenode about a half hour ago: |
| 05:05 | <MikeSmith> | 13:42 [freenode] -!- You are banned from this server- Spam is off topic on freenode. Email kline⊙fn if in error (2017/8/17 04.42) |
| 05:05 | <MikeSmith> | 13:42 [freenode] -!- ERROR Closing Link: sideshowbarker.net (K-Lined) |
| 05:06 | <MikeSmith> | and got kicked |
| 05:07 | <MikeSmith> | I e-mailed that address just now to ask why, and will leave botie off until I hear back from them about whether it was due to somebody complaining about botie |
| 05:10 | <MikeSmith> | ah OK nm |
| 05:10 | <MikeSmith> | just got an automated e-mail message: |
| 05:10 | <MikeSmith> | > During a wave of spam today on freenode, it appears at first glance that a |
| 05:10 | <MikeSmith> | networking issue has caused some automated anti-abuse tools to trigger k-lines |
| 05:10 | <MikeSmith> | on a large number of gateways, multi-user hosts, and individuals. |
| 05:10 | MikeSmith | restarts botie |
| 05:24 | <TimothyGu> | wait, botie is a bot? |
| 05:24 | TimothyGu | feels dumb |
| 05:26 | <xfq> | botie, who are you |
| 05:26 | <botie> | no idea, xfq |
| 05:49 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 05:49 | <MikeSmith> | botie is just a simple way to leave messages for people who aren’t joined to the channel |
| 05:50 | <xfq> | and a calculator :) |
| 05:50 | <xfq> | botie, 1+1 |
| 05:50 | <botie> | 2 |
| 05:50 | <MikeSmith> | aha |
| 05:50 | <MikeSmith> | yeah there are some other weird features in there |
| 05:52 | <MikeSmith> | but as far as the message thing, you just say, “botie, inform foonick please look at bar” and the next time foonick joins the channel, botie reads off the message |
| 05:52 | <MikeSmith> | https://github.com/w3c/infobot#syntax |
| 05:57 | <a-ja> | botie, inform MikeSmith more botsnacks, please! |
| 05:57 | <botie> | will do |
| 05:58 | <MikeSmith> | :) |
| 05:58 | <botie> | MikeSmith, at 2017-08-17 05:57 UTC, a-ja said: more botsnacks, please! |
| 07:51 | <tobie> | Sounds like botie passes the Turing test. |
| 08:10 | <mkwst> | Y'all are probably aware, but the HTML spec is down. :( https://html.spec.whatwg.org/ => 404. |
| 08:12 | <tobie> | annevk, Domenic: ^ |
| 08:12 | <annevk> | Yeah, it's rather unclear what's going on unfortunately |
| 08:13 | <tobie> | zcorpan: what did you end up using [LegacyWindowAlias] on? |
| 08:13 | <annevk> | Some kind of DOS attack might be the cause, but DreamHost didn't give much details |
| 08:14 | <annevk> | tobie: it's used on https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#url-class |
| 08:14 | <zcorpan> | tobie: webkitURL and some things in https://drafts.fxtf.org/geometry/ |
| 08:15 | <zcorpan> | tobie: not yet HTMLDocument, i guess that's not resolved yet if it can be an alias |
| 08:15 | <annevk> | I don't think it will be |
| 08:16 | <tobie> | Cool. Thank you both. |
| 08:25 | <TimothyGu> | What's the reasoning behind using a separate web ost rather than something like GH Pages? |
| 08:25 | <botie> | TimothyGu, at 2017-08-17 05:25 UTC, TimothyGu said: he's a nice person |
| 08:25 | <TimothyGu> | lmao |
| 08:25 | <TimothyGu> | sorry it was an experiment y'all |
| 08:26 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 08:26 | <MikeSmith> | botie is gonna get us all kicked |
| 08:26 | <annevk> | TimothyGu: last I checked GH Pages doesn't allow for custom domains and HTTPS |
| 08:27 | <TimothyGu> | right, but cloudflare does, unless you guys hate how cf operates? |
| 08:27 | <MikeSmith> | to me publishing with GH Pages is kind of a “now you have two problems” case |
| 08:28 | <annevk> | TimothyGu: wouldn't the connection between CF and GH be insecure? |
| 08:28 | <MikeSmith> | TimothyGu: ah I guess you just mean doing the cname thing |
| 08:29 | <annevk> | TimothyGu: see https://notapattern.net/2014/10/14/ways-men-in-tech-are-unintentionally-sexist/ btw |
| 08:29 | <TimothyGu> | annevk: well there's "full" mode, which does use HTTPS but doesn't check CA etc., versus "strict" which uses HTTPS all the way and checks for cert validity |
| 08:30 | <MikeSmith> | setting up HTTPS is relatively to do on our own with Let’s Encrypt |
| 08:30 | <annevk> | Hmm, but also seems somewhat sad to give all the user data to CF and GH (although I suppose a lot of it goes there anyway) |
| 08:31 | <TimothyGu> | that's true... but it's free! |
| 08:33 | <tobie> | What are the APIs that use [LenientSetter]? I've only found the fullscreen stuff. |
| 08:34 | <TimothyGu> | annevk: and thanks for the link |
| 08:35 | <TimothyGu> | (Sorry to anyone I unintentionally insulted.) |
| 08:35 | <annevk> | TimothyGu: it is worth considering though, https://github.com/whatwg/meta/issues/8 is the corresponding issue |
| 08:35 | <annevk> | MikeSmith's been arguing for something we fully control for a while |
| 08:36 | <MikeSmith> | yeah if we move to something we have full root access to I am willing to invest time in ongoing maintenance |
| 08:36 | <annevk> | I like the idea of outsourcing most things, if we don't end up compromising too much |
| 08:36 | <TimothyGu> | DigitalOcean's cheapest is $5/month |
| 08:36 | <TimothyGu> | that's not too bad, right? |
| 08:37 | <Ms2ger> | tobie, that seems to be it, as far as Gecko's impl goes |
| 08:37 | <MikeSmith> | yeah it’s cheap but I think we would need to pay for more RAM |
| 08:37 | <annevk> | Heh yeah, we should be able to scrape some money together |
| 08:37 | <tobie> | Ms2ger: yeah, that's what searchfox gives me too. |
| 08:38 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: you could consider it as outsourcing to me |
| 08:38 | <tobie> | I'm pretty convinced DO would be happy to offer a large server for a small "graciously hosted by DO" mention somewhere, fwiw |
| 08:38 | <MikeSmith> | I reckon I would be a lot more responsive than some 3rd party, and more competent than Dreamhost by a giant stretch |
| 08:39 | <TimothyGu> | there's also S3 if the website's fully static |
| 08:39 | <tobie> | TimothyGu: it's not. |
| 08:39 | <MikeSmith> | I have run my own mail server and bind nameserver etc etc since relatively the dawn of time |
| 08:39 | <annevk> | tobie: apart from the wiki it mostly is I think |
| 08:40 | <TimothyGu> | oh well |
| 08:40 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: hahaha |
| 08:40 | <tobie> | annevk: well, that's the other option that I use for specref, for example. |
| 08:40 | <tobie> | annevk: host the static stuff on GH Pages (cert issues though) |
| 08:40 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: I'm starting to warm up to the idea tbh |
| 08:41 | <tobie> | annevk: and use something like Heroku for the part that needs server logic |
| 08:41 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: especially if we just manage all the configuration in a GitHub repository as well |
| 08:41 | <annevk> | tobie: yeah GH Pages isn't really an option imo |
| 08:42 | <annevk> | I'd like full marks for HTTPS |
| 08:42 | <annevk> | s/like/want/ |
| 08:42 | <tobie> | S3 would give you that. |
| 08:42 | <tobie> | afaik |
| 08:42 | <tobie> | No? |
| 08:43 | <TimothyGu> | yeah it will |
| 08:43 | <TimothyGu> | still doesn't address the wiki issue though |
| 08:43 | <TimothyGu> | heroku *should* work but the startup performance of the free plan is kinda bad |
| 08:44 | <MikeSmith> | as far as no-static stuff IMHO, not having to run MySQL or some other DB would be feature |
| 08:44 | <MikeSmith> | oh, or PHP |
| 08:44 | <MikeSmith> | wiki.whatwg.org is PHP, right? |
| 08:44 | <MikeSmith> | don’t want to volunteer to maintain that |
| 08:44 | <TimothyGu> | mediawiki is, yeah |
| 08:45 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 08:45 | <MikeSmith> | well I think we should just move all the wiki.whatwg.org stuff to github wiki |
| 08:45 | <MikeSmith> | I did that already for all the stuff in the wiki related to the validator |
| 08:45 | <MikeSmith> | https://github.com/validator/validator/wiki |
| 08:46 | <annevk> | We could also leave wiki.whatwg.org and other problematic stuff, if any, on DreamHost for the time being |
| 08:46 | <MikeSmith> | that has worked out well for that case at ealst |
| 08:46 | <annevk> | I think that's doable |
| 08:46 | <MikeSmith> | ah true |
| 08:46 | <tobie> | TimothyGu: I'm in discussion with Heroku to get them to cover the cost of hosting specref, pr-preview, and the wpt-bot, which I'm currently paying for myself. |
| 08:47 | <tobie> | TimothyGu: if that works out, extending that sponsorship shouldn't be too difficult. |
| 08:48 | <TimothyGu> | tobie: ooh nice |
| 08:50 | <TimothyGu> | MikeSmith: GitHub's wiki isn't exactly the most featureful though. also not quite sure why it's called "gollum". |
| 08:50 | <MikeSmith> | yeah I think that’s by design |
| 08:50 | <TimothyGu> | not sure how many features the current wiki is using but IIRC gollum doesn't have templates. templates. |
| 08:50 | <MikeSmith> | like a lot of GitHub stuff |
| 08:50 | <MikeSmith> | the 20/80 thing |
| 08:51 | <TimothyGu> | yeah yeah |
| 08:51 | <MikeSmith> | I like the feature philosophy they follow at GitHub |
| 08:51 | <MikeSmith> | well in general at least |
| 08:52 | <MikeSmith> | except for the specific cases where they refuse to add some feature I personally want |
| 08:52 | <TimothyGu> | I like their issue tracker |
| 08:52 | <TimothyGu> | that's about it |
| 08:54 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: FWIW, I don't think we should embrace GH's wiki |
| 08:54 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: I much prefer static pages that can be maintained through PRs |
| 08:55 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: you can do that with GH wiki |
| 08:55 | <MikeSmith> | it is just a git repo |
| 08:55 | <TimothyGu> | PR's though? |
| 08:55 | <MikeSmith> | ah yeah maybe you can’t do PRs |
| 08:56 | <MikeSmith> | but you can roll back changes at least |
| 08:56 | <tobie> | Is fullscreen not in shepherd? |
| 08:56 | <tobie> | I can't seem to be able to link {{Document/fullscreenEnabled}} |
| 09:00 | <tobie> | Is summoning TabAtkins the way to get fullscreen in Shepherd? Or do I need to look for plinss in another channel? |
| 09:01 | <MikeSmith> | I think you need plinss |
| 09:01 | <MikeSmith> | but I think TabAtkins can also proxy efficiently |
| 09:01 | <tobie> | I'll ping plinss on #specs |
| 09:16 | <timdream> | https://html.spec.whatwg.org/ is down |
| 09:18 | <annevk> | timdream: ta, known :/ |
| 09:24 | a-ja | hopes DOJ isn't confiscating DH's servers |
| 09:29 | <annevk> | timdream and everyone else, I put html.spec.whatwg.org back |
| 09:29 | <annevk> | Hopefully DH doesn't take us out... |
| 09:29 | <timdream> | annevk: \o/ |
| 09:30 | <MikeSmith> | yay |
| 09:32 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/pull/578 should be ready again (sorry for delay in getting back to it) |
| 09:39 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: ta, merged |
| 09:40 | <MikeSmith> | thanks |
| 10:31 | <tobie> | Started linking the legacy APIs affected by specific extended attributes directly from within the WebIDL spec: |
| 10:31 | <tobie> | https://s3.amazonaws.com/pr-preview/tobie/webidl/link-legacy-apis.html#LegacyWindowAlias |
| 10:32 | <tobie> | (and following) |
| 10:33 | <tobie> | Thoughts welcome before I continue with this, WIP PR is here: |
| 10:33 | <tobie> | https://github.com/heycam/webidl/pull/416 |
| 10:34 | <Ms2ger> | The double colouring looks kinda odd |
| 10:37 | <tobie> | Ms2ger: agreed |
| 10:37 | <tobie> | Ms2ger: maybe there's another way in BS to make a paragraph non normative. |
| 10:38 | <tobie> | Ms2ger: I don't want the references to end-up as normative. |
| 10:40 | <Ms2ger> | Good point |
| 10:45 | <tobie> | Ms2ger: I guess I could manually style things differently. |
| 10:45 | <Ms2ger> | Isn't there an unstyled non-normative class? |
| 10:46 | <tobie> | Ms2ger: I don't think so? |
| 10:46 | <tobie> | oh, it could be a custom attribute |
| 10:47 | <tobie> | (class="informative" doesn't work) |
| 10:48 | <tobie> | it's non-normative |
| 10:48 | <tobie> | duh |
| 10:53 | <tobie> | Ms2ger: "non-normative" works |
| 10:54 | <tobie> | Ms2ger: we loose the separation between the advisement, and the know use cases |
| 10:54 | <tobie> | Ms2ger: subtitle for the latter? |
| 10:57 | <tobie> | Ms2ger: <small></small>? |
| 10:57 | <Ms2ger> | I dunno |
| 11:01 | <tobie> | Ms2ger: you should be able to refresh. |
| 11:06 | <Ms2ger> | That looks nicer, yes |
| 11:08 | <tobie> | Good. |
| 11:09 | <tobie> | Otherwise having those in written like this seems valuable to someone else than just me? |
| 11:20 | <zcorpan> | Domenic: does https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/2615 have data now? |
| 11:26 | <zcorpan> | found it on chromestatus |
| 12:34 | <annevk> | Domenic: https://github.com/whatwg/meta/issues/8#issuecomment-323059182 can't be everything |
| 12:34 | <annevk> | Domenic: not sure how things are structured, but e.g. spec.whatwg.org isn't listed |
| 12:34 | <Domenic> | Uhhh good point, hmm. |
| 12:34 | <Domenic> | It doesn't show up when cloudflare does a scan of the DNS, so that's not great... |
| 12:35 | <Domenic> | Maybe I should tell cloudflare to scan spec |
| 12:35 | <annevk> | Domenic: also missing validator.whatwg.org |
| 12:36 | <Domenic> | OK, I guess cloudflare auto-scanning is a bust. We need to get the DNS records list from Hixie. I'll update the issue. |
| 12:48 | <TimothyGu> | annevk: so y'all have decided to use cloudflare huh? |
| 12:48 | <annevk> | TimothyGu: Domenic is a fan |
| 12:49 | <TimothyGu> | ah nice |
| 12:49 | <annevk> | TimothyGu: and even if we move hosting providers it'd be annoying to deal with DOS ourselves |
| 12:49 | <Domenic> | It's trickier than anticipated I guess, so maybe not today. But I'd like to eventually. |
| 13:05 | <tobie> | annevk: what would you say the data-dfn-for would be for the event handlers in HTML? |
| 13:06 | <annevk> | tobie: depends on the object they're on I guess |
| 13:06 | <tobie> | annevk: I'm talking about these ones |
| 13:07 | <tobie> | https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#event-handlers-on-elements,-document-objects,-and-window-objects |
| 13:07 | <annevk> | tobie: HTMLElement,Document,Window? |
| 13:09 | <tobie> | yes, the conclusion I was arriving at too. As usual, stating the problem mostly solves it. |
| 13:09 | <tobie> | Sorry. :-/ |
| 13:27 | <tobie> | Is exporting DFNs "Meta: " or "Editorial: "? |
| 13:27 | <Domenic> | Meta: |
| 13:27 | <Domenic> | (Although I don't think the ES spec does Meta:) |
| 13:27 | <tobie> | Thanks |
| 13:32 | <zcorpan> | Should link-fixup.js do nothing if the URL doesn't start with /multipage/ ? what about /dev/ ? currently it redirects https://html.spec.whatwg.org/robots.txt#video to https://html.spec.whatwg.org/media.html#video which is still a 404 |
| 13:33 | <Domenic> | zcorpan: doing nothing for non-/multipage/ or /dev/ sounds good. |
| 16:07 | <tobie> | Known uses of TreatNonObjectAsNull beyond EventHandlerNonNull, OnBeforeUnloadEventHandlerNonNull and OnErrorEventHandlerNonNull in HTML? |
| 16:17 | <gsnedders> | are WebIDL sequences what ES "array exotic objects"? |
| 16:17 | <gsnedders> | (i.e., does Array.isArray(x) return true for a WebIDL sequence x?) |
| 16:18 | <gsnedders> | yes, because WebIDL sequences are realised as Arrays, right? |
| 16:19 | <tobie> | gsnedders: yes, sequences are converted to arrays: https://heycam.github.io/webidl/#es-sequence |
| 16:21 | <gsnedders> | do we have any notion of a more general sequence, including e.g. NodeList? |
| 16:31 | <tobie> | gsnedders: Not sure what the question is. |
| 16:31 | <tobie> | gsnedders: Do we have a generic type that regroup all iterables? |
| 16:32 | <gsnedders> | (are iterables in ES necessarily finite?) |
| 16:33 | <gsnedders> | or subscriptable, I guess, too |
| 16:33 | <gsnedders> | like I want to know "is this an object x where I can do x[i] for all i < x.length?" |
| 16:33 | <gsnedders> | realistically, that probably just means "is there a x.length property?" |
| 16:35 | <annevk> | gsnedders: there's Infra's list |
| 16:36 | <annevk> | gsnedders: which eventually is what sequence<> (on the input side) would be converted into |
| 16:36 | <annevk> | gsnedders: after some editing iterations |
| 17:35 | <JakeA> | Is it ok in webidl to create an iterable where the values are created lazily? Eg, calling iterable[5] will run an algorithm that returns a promise, a further call to iterable[5] will return the value previously returned. The length of the iterable is known up front. |
| 17:38 | <JakeA> | Use-case: We have a disk-backed store of potentially 10000+ requests & responses (eg a chunked movie). We don't want to have to create all of them unless the developer asks for them. |
| 17:38 | <JakeA> | https://github.com/WICG/background-fetch/issues/47 |
| 18:11 | <tobie> | JakeA: I *think* that's OK. Or rather, I can't seem to see upfront what would prevent that in the spec. |
| 18:12 | <JakeA> | tobie: ta! |
| 18:13 | <tobie> | JakeA: these will just be getters, right? |
| 18:17 | <JakeA> | tobie: indexed getters yeah. No setters. |
| 18:20 | <tobie> | JakeA: fwiw, outside of the Promise-returning concern, I'm not sure what the stance is wrt to setters and getters nowadays. I think it depends who you ask. |
| 18:24 | <nox> | Is calc() serialisation in specified values specified? |
| 18:26 | <ecobos> | nox: https://drafts.csswg.org/css-values/#calc-serialize |
| 18:26 | <ecobos> | nox: will file |
| 18:27 | <nox> | ecobos: I was like, "who are you, how do you know something needs to be filed?" |
| 18:27 | <ecobos> | nox: lol :) |
| 18:27 | <ecobos> | nox: there's apparently an emilio that was before me on freenode, oh well |
| 18:27 | <nox> | Hah. |
| 18:28 | <ecobos> | nox: oh, actually, section 3 defines what we should do |
| 20:24 | <rbyers> | annevk: Hey, I'm working on the spec for a new Observer-pattern API (ReportingObserver) and looking for good examples to follow. Are you more-or-less happy with the definition of MutationObserver in the DOM spec? |
| 20:46 | <tobie> | Which are the [NoInterfaceObject] interfaces that aren't mixins? |
| 20:51 | <TabAtkins> | Mistakes. |
| 20:51 | <TabAtkins> | ^_^ |
| 20:53 | <tobie> | found FontFaceSetIterator for now |
| 20:54 | <tobie> | TabAtkins: :) |
| 21:08 | <Domenic> | gsnedders: on the input side, any ES iterable (e.g. a NodeList instance) can be converted to a sequence<>. On the output side, returning a sequence<> returns an ES Array. |
| 21:08 | <Domenic> | JakeA: this sounds like async iterators? |
| 21:18 | <JakeA> | Domenic: kinda, although we know the length in advance, and we can return the nth item at any point. Also Promise.all(fetches) works, which is nice |
| 21:20 | <Domenic> | Hmm I see, maybe not then, yeah. |
| 21:28 | <botie> | rniwa, at 2017-08-16 20:19 UTC, Domenic said: we appreciate him muddling through the spec for datatransfer/drag and drop and welcome suggestions for clearer wording to avoid others going through his pain in the future. |
| 23:51 | <wanderview> | JakeA: you can't use IDB for this because its a streamed Response? |
| 23:52 | <wanderview> | JakeA: also, I personally think any API like this should allow getRange(start, end) and getInList(indexList) type calls |