| 00:04 | <TimothyGu> | tobie, annevk, Domenic: should I just apply https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/7254? |
| 00:09 | <TimothyGu> | and https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/2932 too |
| 00:56 | <GPHemsley> | wiki is once again open for business |
| 00:56 | <GPHemsley> | foolip, annevk, MikeSmith: ^ |
| 00:58 | <MikeSmith> | GPHemsley: super |
| 02:11 | <Domenic> | TimothyGu: sorry we haven't had time for review; it's on my to-do |
| 02:12 | <TimothyGu> | no worries |
| 04:22 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: excellent! 🎉 |
| 05:57 | <foolip> | GPHemsley: sweet, thank you! |
| 08:27 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: for same-origin requests, the XHR API provides no way to prevent credentials from being included, right? |
| 08:29 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: nope |
| 08:29 | <annevk> | or I suppose, you are right |
| 08:32 | <MikeSmith> | k |
| 08:34 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: another question, why does the XHR spec use the term *user credentials* https://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/#user-credentials while the Fetch spec uses just *credentials*? https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#credentials |
| 08:34 | <MikeSmith> | do those to mean the same thing? |
| 08:34 | <MikeSmith> | *those two |
| 08:35 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: yeah, XHR should probably just reference Fetch for that |
| 08:35 | <MikeSmith> | OK I can make a PR |
| 08:35 | <annevk> | thanks! |
| 08:36 | <MikeSmith> | but there’s another difference: |
| 08:36 | <MikeSmith> | Fetch says, “ are HTTP cookies, TLS client certificates, and authentication entries. |
| 08:36 | <MikeSmith> | oofs |
| 08:36 | <MikeSmith> | Fetch says, “Credentials are HTTP cookies, TLS client certificates, and authentication entries.” |
| 08:37 | <annevk> | Nah, just different words |
| 08:37 | <MikeSmith> | while XHR says, “The term user credentialsfor the purposes of this specification means cookies, HTTP authentication, and TLS client certificates.” |
| 08:37 | <MikeSmith> | yeah well |
| 08:37 | <MikeSmith> | different words are pretty important |
| 08:37 | <annevk> | And Fetch has the better words |
| 08:37 | <MikeSmith> | not sure about that |
| 08:38 | <MikeSmith> | technically it does of course |
| 08:38 | <MikeSmith> | but to a web-developer reader of the spec, maybe not |
| 08:39 | <annevk> | I guess we should mention HTTP authentication more explicitly somehow in https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#authentication-entries but otherwise I think it's fine |
| 08:39 | <MikeSmith> | in particular, the specific mention of *HTTP authentication* in the XHR definition is more clear to web-developer readers |
| 08:39 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 08:39 | <MikeSmith> | that is all I meant |
| 08:39 | <MikeSmith> | I will work on it, anyway |
| 08:40 | <MikeSmith> | if nothing else, will add a note |
| 08:40 | <MikeSmith> | in practice, notes mean as much to non-implementors as the normative statements do |
| 08:41 | <annevk> | my main worry with notes is that I sometimes see implementors cite them as if they contain the truth |
| 08:42 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 08:42 | <MikeSmith> | that is the downside |
| 08:42 | <MikeSmith> | and I strongly believe the specs should be optimized for implementors |
| 08:43 | <annevk> | but fortunately that's easier to teach than not looking at forked variants that end up higher in search results |
| 08:43 | <MikeSmith> | :) |
| 09:18 | <tobie> | TimothyGu: today's a bank holiday, here. |
| 11:03 | <smaug____> | jgraham: where do w3c reftests live these days? |
| 11:04 | <smaug____> | aha, https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests |
| 11:04 | <jgraham> | Also testing/web-platform/tests/css in m-c |
| 11:05 | <jgraham> | Or, therefore, rather |
| 11:05 | <smaug____> | hmm, I wonder if there are css tests for shadow dom |
| 11:05 | <smaug____> | I mean reftests |
| 11:05 | <jgraham> | Oh not sure, there could be but not under css probably |
| 11:08 | <smaug____> | kochi: perhaps you know |
| 11:09 | <jgraham> | smaug____: james@ginny:~/develop/web-platform-tests/shadow-dom$ rg -l 'rel=.(:?mis)?match' | wc -l |
| 11:09 | <jgraham> | 6 |
| 11:09 | <kochi> | what kind of css tests for shadow dom? |
| 11:10 | <kochi> | I guess some are covered in csswg tests (now in wpt anyway) |
| 11:12 | <smaug____> | kochi: just some tests ensuring that if one uses shadow dom, the layout is still correct |
| 11:13 | <smaug____> | like comparing layout without use of shadow dom to some page with shadow dom |
| 11:13 | <kochi> | hmm, the scope sounds too broad :) |
| 11:13 | <kochi> | ah, in shadow-dom/ directory we have several reftests |
| 11:13 | <smaug____> | that is very broad sure |
| 11:14 | <smaug____> | ah, looking |
| 11:15 | <smaug____> | kochi: hmm, where |
| 11:15 | <kochi> | Using Blink's layout test runner infrastructure, running reftests automatically compares generated PNGs so its automatic, but running it manually is tedious. |
| 11:16 | <smaug____> | oh, you mean in blink |
| 11:16 | <smaug____> | I was wondering if wpt has them too |
| 11:16 | <smaug____> | we do have some reftests in gecko too |
| 11:17 | <kochi> | I guess csswg tests are mostly reftests |
| 11:18 | <kochi> | you can find '*-ref.html' in shadow-dom directory. I found 7 tests under shadow-dom/untriaged. |
| 11:19 | <kochi> | smaug____: Blink imports wpt in its layout test subdirectory (external/wpt), and run them as a part of commit queue. |
| 11:20 | <kochi> | Under "shadow-dom/untriaged" directory, we have several dozens of ancient tests. |
| 11:20 | <kochi> | (ancient = created in Shadow DOM V0 era, converted to use V1 API) |
| 11:21 | <kochi> | they test something, but their values are questionable, therefore needs triage... |
| 11:26 | <TimothyGu> | tobie: oh ok, I'll wait then |
| 11:31 | <JakeA> | annevk: Any idea what https://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/#stop-timeout-flag is for? It isn't exported, and it doesn't really seem to be used |
| 11:32 | <JakeA> | annevk: seems like the use of it was removed in https://github.com/whatwg/xhr/pull/133/files |
| 11:40 | <jgraham> | ~, |
| 11:53 | <ondras> | validator.w3.org: |
| 11:53 | <ondras> | 503 Service Unavailable |
| 11:53 | <ondras> | No server is available to handle this request. |
| 11:56 | xfq | MikeSmith ^ |
| 11:56 | <xfq> | it works for me though |
| 11:57 | <ondras> | right, works now |
| 11:58 | <ondras> | checking which of these "scissor" symbols happens to be valid: |
| 11:58 | <ondras> | --->8--- |
| 11:58 | <ondras> | ---8<--- |
| 11:58 | <ondras> | apparently only the first one is okay |
| 12:00 | <annevk> | JakeA: oversight I suppose then |
| 12:00 | <JakeA> | annevk: cool, I'll remove it |
| 12:26 | <jgraham> | https://misc0110.net/web/files/keystroke_js.pdf |
| 12:39 | <ondras> | jgraham: I am not sure how exactly their 6-liner works |
| 12:39 | <ondras> | jgraham: what exactly happens/changes when a key is pressed in an unrelated context? |
| 12:41 | <ondras> | hm, I may see now |
| 12:42 | <ondras> | they measure how many increments happened in every 5ms timeslot |
| 13:52 | <annevk> | zcorpan: hey while you're looking at data |
| 13:52 | <annevk> | zcorpan: for https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/3005 it would be interesting to know usage of charset + cross-origin URL |
| 13:53 | <annevk> | zcorpan: and usage of a utf-16 charset, including utf-16le and utf-16be |
| 13:56 | <zcorpan> | annevk: I find two utf-16s |
| 13:56 | <zcorpan> | i'll comment in the issue |
| 13:56 | <annevk> | hmm, that's potentially bad news |
| 13:57 | <annevk> | thanks |
| 14:01 | <zcorpan> | I'll need to write a new query to get the src attribute and compare origins, but need to go. Can you remind me tomorrow? |
| 16:22 | <annevk> | I can |
| 16:23 | <annevk> | One of those results was rather sad, suggesting that treating utf-16 as utf-8 would fail, but the upside is that it was same-origin, so maybe there's still hope cross-origin |
| 19:32 | <Domenic> | annevk: what is "topic: javascript" as opposed to "topic: script"? seems confusing |
| 19:40 | <annevk> | Domenic: javascript was meant for host integration stuff |
| 19:40 | <annevk> | script for the script element |
| 19:40 | <Domenic> | I dunno that's a blurry line |
| 19:40 | <annevk> | guess I'm okay with merging them |
| 19:40 | <Domenic> | Like all module stuff is host integration too |
| 19:40 | <Domenic> | Ok cool |
| 20:25 | <TabAtkins> | gsnedders or whoever: The WPT introduction page <http://web-platform-tests.org/introduction.html>; mentions how to work with the GH repo, *but doesn't actually link to the repo*. |
| 20:26 | <gsnedders> | hah, a+++ me |
| 20:26 | <gsnedders> | TabAtkins: can you throw together a PR? |
| 20:26 | <TabAtkins> | No, because I can't find the GH repo. |
| 20:26 | <gsnedders> | TabAtkins: wpt/doc |
| 20:26 | <gsnedders> | *docs |
| 20:27 | <gsnedders> | TabAtkins: i.e., in the wpt repo |
| 20:27 | <TabAtkins> | Which, again, I cant' find, because it's not in the docs. |
| 20:27 | <gsnedders> | the docs are bad :( |
| 20:27 | <gsnedders> | I mean they're better than they were a year ago |
| 20:27 | <gsnedders> | but that's not saying much |
| 20:27 | <TabAtkins> | JUST LINK ME TO THE REPOSITORY |
| 20:28 | <gsnedders> | https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/master/docs/introduction.md |
| 20:28 | <TabAtkins> | Danke. ^_^ |
| 20:28 | <gsnedders> | I thought you could find a directory in the wpt repo :P |
| 20:29 | <TabAtkins> | I can find a directory, yes. Couldn't find the repository. |
| 20:29 | <TabAtkins> | Thus my original complaint. |
| 20:30 | <TabAtkins> | (At some point I definitely could have just googled for it again, but you seemed to be purposely avoiding actually telling me where the repository was, and I wanted to see how far it would go.) |
| 20:31 | <gsnedders> | (until you realise I'm just an idiot |
| 20:31 | <gsnedders> | ) |
| 20:31 | <TabAtkins> | Correct. ^_^ |
| 20:32 | <TabAtkins> | Your trickery (telling me about a fake "wpt/docs" repo) was really confusing me for a while. |
| 20:32 | gsnedders | goes back to trying to sort out an earlier screw up with more… financial consequences |
| 20:32 | <gsnedders> | (financial consequences are the best consequences) |
| 21:09 | <cantom> | I have a few questions. I notice the URL object is not recommended to be used in APIs, rather string URLs should be passed. Is there a strong reason for this? If URL was made immutable it could've saved us some reparsing between objects maybe? |
| 21:28 | <Domenic> | MikeSmith: sideshowbarker.net seems to not be working, causing HTML build failures, hrm https://travis-ci.org/whatwg/html/builds/272976905#L586 |
| 21:36 | <MikeSmith> | Domenic: thanks will check and get it fixed |
| 21:38 | <MikeSmith> | Domenic: working again now |
| 21:38 | <Domenic> | Thanks! |
| 21:39 | <MikeSmith> | and I’ll put some kind of watchdog in place so I get alerted when it’s down |
| 21:39 | <MikeSmith> | I think my `certbot renew` cron job is what caused it to go down |
| 21:40 | <MikeSmith> | that cron job stops nginx before running `certbot renew` and then restarts it after |
| 21:41 | <MikeSmith> | I think I am &&’ing the `certbot renew` and nginx restart |
| 21:41 | <MikeSmith> | which I guess I shouldn’t be |
| 21:41 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 21:42 | <MikeSmith> | > 59 22 * * * sudo /etc/init.d/nginx stop > /dev/null && /opt/workspace/letsencrypt/letsencrypt-auto -q renew > /dev/null && sudo /etc/init.d/nginx start > /dev/null |
| 21:42 | <MikeSmith> | that’s not so smart |
| 21:43 | <MikeSmith> | OK, fixed that |
| 22:12 | <MikeSmith> | yay the chair of the W3C Service Workers WG has now actually joined the group |
| 22:12 | <MikeSmith> | progress! |
| 22:19 | <Yuhong> | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15196280 |
| 22:25 | <Yuhong> | TabAtkins is not the only one here that has worked for Google. |
| 22:36 | <TabAtkins> | Fucking hell, now I'm gonna have to talk to Legal. That jackass. |
| 22:44 | <TabAtkins> | On the plus side, comments are surprisingly good for HN. |
| 22:45 | <Yuhong> | Notice the question I asked though. |
| 22:45 | <TabAtkins> | The one pretending this his conspiracy theory actually has some validity? Thanks for that. |
| 22:46 | <Yuhong> | I was making an important point. |
| 22:47 | <Yuhong> | "How often does random personal blog posts like this make it to the top in the first place " |
| 22:47 | <TabAtkins> | A lot? Especially when they're linked from the person's own blog? |
| 22:48 | <TabAtkins> | And several other high-Page Rank news-ish sites linked to it at one point. |
| 22:48 | <TabAtkins> | I'm super surprised at the longevity actually. Go look at my damn site, there's no special juicing going on. I just have a normal blog. |
| 22:49 | <TabAtkins> | But for serious, he's a paranoid jerk with an axe to grind. Don't feed his delusions. |
| 22:49 | <Yuhong> | Yea, I just edited the comment to point that out too. This post is more than one year old. |
| 22:49 | <astearns> | this current go-around might promote it higher. It's on my first page of duck duck go results now. |
| 22:50 | <Yuhong> | I don't see any other news article about it on the first page either. |
| 22:50 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, every time he complains he cements it. |
| 22:51 | <Yuhong> | Other than the GamerGate interview. |
| 22:51 | <Yuhong> | Which is also more than one year old too. |
| 22:53 | <Yuhong> | And you are also talking about the blog article being in the third position of page one. |
| 22:56 | <TabAtkins> | Go look at my fucking blog and find a lick of SEO (beyond "write good markup, good content, and make it fast"). Otherwise you're accusing me of having the power and access (and complete lack of morals) to juice Search results, our company's bread and butter, the thing that we firewall from employees *precisely to avoid the possibility of this kind of thing*. |
| 22:57 | <Domenic> | This seems a bit off-topic; I'd appreciate if you two had the chat in private conversation? |
| 22:57 | <Domenic> | Yuhong, in particular, please don't use this channel as a way to just discuss other members of the channel |
| 22:58 | <Yuhong> | Domenic also happens to work for Google though. |
| 22:59 | <astearns> | I don't, and I'd also like this off the channel |
| 22:59 | <Domenic> | Yuhong, discussing personal characteristics of members and their employment for purposes of some flagged hackernews channel is not on topic in #whatwg. If you wish to discuss that, please do so in another channel. |
| 23:00 | <Yuhong> | I have joined #google |
| 23:12 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/20035101/no-access-control-allow-origin-header-is-present-on-the-requested-resource/46099357#46099357 describes an interesting case with CDNs and Access-Control-Allow-Origin getting cached across origins |
| 23:14 | <MikeSmith> | just getting server config alone done right for CORS seems to be pretty error-prone and problematic for a lot of developers. But from that I can see how much adding a CDN to the mix can further complicate it |
| 23:15 | <tantek> | it definitely feels like one of those "fragile" things where the slightest change breaks everything |
| 23:16 | <tantek> | CORS that is |
| 23:17 | <MikeSmith> | yeah there’s multiple knobs to turn |
| 23:18 | <MikeSmith> | including the arcane need to deal with HTTP OPTIONS, for which I think the average web dev doesn’t have a huge amount of prior knowledge |
| 23:19 | <tantek> | does anyone actually use HTTP OPTIONS for anything in the web stack or rather for what use-cases? |
| 23:19 | <MikeSmith> | dunno |
| 23:19 | <MikeSmith> | so I guess I am one of the people who has never had need for it other than for CORS |
| 23:20 | <Domenic> | TabAtkins: is there a definition for "valid CSS syntax"? |
| 23:21 | <Domenic> | For conformance requirements |
| 23:21 | <MikeSmith> | tantek: heh, quick search leads me to https://www.mnot.net/blog/2012/10/29/NO_OPTIONS |
| 23:22 | <cantom> | Folks, where can I get an up-to-date list of WHATWG members? And the companies they represent? |
| 23:22 | <MikeSmith> | > To make OPTIONS work well, you’d be forced to design your own caching model – silly when HTTP already has one. |
| 23:22 | tantek | checks his site code for how he supports CORS |
| 23:22 | <MikeSmith> | that is what CORS does (special caching model for OPTIONS) |
| 23:23 | <tantek> | oops no sorry I meant CSP |
| 23:23 | <tantek> | yeah no explicit CORS support on my site yet. just CSP |
| 23:24 | <tantek> | yeah one line of PHP |
| 23:24 | <MikeSmith> | tantek: you can do CORS with one line too |
| 23:24 | <MikeSmith> | and yuck btw |
| 23:25 | <MikeSmith> | tantek: you should be using Python https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/09/06/incredible-growth-python/ |
| 23:25 | <tantek> | lol no I can't do CASSIS with Python |
| 23:26 | <MikeSmith> | no idea what CASSIS is but if you can’t do it in Python it can’t be important :) |
| 23:26 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, time for you to leave 1999 behind and get on the Clue Train |
| 23:26 | <tantek> | cassisproject.com |
| 23:26 | MikeSmith | looks |
| 23:28 | <MikeSmith> | can you not do CASSIS with node? |
| 23:28 | <tantek> | runs on more servers / services than node |
| 23:28 | <MikeSmith> | which is almost as good a python, but with lots more collateral drama for free |
| 23:28 | <tantek> | more webhosts = cheaper etc. |
| 23:29 | <MikeSmith> | OK, sold. I’m switching :) |
| 23:29 | <tantek> | hey I run it on my site |
| 23:29 | <tantek> | you can check which version directly: tantek.com/cassis.js |
| 23:29 | <tantek> | (literally that file is executed by both my clientside pages in JS and backend in PHP) |
| 23:30 | <MikeSmith> | whoah that code, my eyes my eyes |
| 23:30 | <Domenic> | cantom: the WHATWG is a community with no formal notion of membership. If you participate on GitHub or elsewhere, I'll be happy to consider you a member. |
| 23:30 | <tantek> | didn't say it was pretty. just that it works. and I only have to write it once turn in both JS and PHP |
| 23:30 | <tantek> | s/turn in/to run it in |
| 23:32 | <MikeSmith> | tantek: sorry, you haven’t been on this channel much lately so I am mostly just trying to meet my quota for trolling you :) |
| 23:36 | <cantom> | Domenic: that's great, but I was hoping for some overview to see which browser-making companies are involved. |
| 23:36 | <Domenic> | cantom: oh, all of them participate |
| 23:37 | <tantek> | MikeSmith: all good. I'm here a lot, just nearly completely lurking. |
| 23:37 | <cantom> | Domenic: let me put the question differently: who moderates, and who elects the moderators |
| 23:38 | <Domenic> | cantom: are you concerned with IRC, or elsewhere? |
| 23:38 | <tantek> | MikeSmith: your reaction is pretty tame actually, I've had friends give me the weirdest looks (in person) after hearing of the concept/goals of cassis.js and then actually looking at the code. something between horrified and disgusted. |
| 23:39 | <Yuhong> | I once argued about the idea of W3C using the WHATWG webdev edition as a base. |
| 23:39 | <Yuhong> | Remember the 2022 prediction? |
| 23:41 | <Yuhong> | the webdev edition would be a better fit. |
| 23:43 | <Yuhong> | Yea, it is a compromise, and I know that caniuse.com does a better job. |
| 23:43 | <cantom> | Domenic: nag the group itself |
| 23:44 | <Domenic> | cantom: each editor moderates their own spec. |
| 23:49 | <cantom> | Domenic: I see |
| 23:49 | <Yuhong> | https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2014Oct/0073.html |
| 23:50 | <Yuhong> | "One could imagine having multiple "views" of the spec, with newer features omitted from some." |
| 23:50 | <Yuhong> | "In practice this isn't viable because when you add new features you often have to make pretty invasive changes to the core model, and so maintaining multiple branches becomes hellish."/ |
| 23:50 | <Yuhong> | Why I suggested the web developer edition. |
| 23:51 | <cantom> | Yuhong: as a web developer I'd always go to the "real" spec because anything else is doomed to be out of date |
| 23:52 | <Yuhong> | Yes, but it is unlikely that what makes to the web developer spec snapshots will be particularly inaccurate. |
| 23:52 | <Yuhong> | It might not have some newer features of course. |
| 23:53 | <Yuhong> | Especially as the web developer spec lack things like implementation details. |
| 23:54 | <Yuhong> | So it is less complex and will likely change less often. |