2007-03-17
[15:56:00.0000] <annevk>
and the overloading <object> debate continues

[15:56:01.0000] <annevk>
yay

[15:56:02.0000] <othermaciej>
w00t

[15:57:00.0000] <annevk>
othermaciej, btw, you think we should add the constants to XMLHttpRequest?

[16:02:00.0000] <othermaciej>
annevk: I don't really have a strong opinion

[16:02:01.0000] <othermaciej>
they seem nice, but not absolutely necessary

[16:03:00.0000] <annevk>
/me doesn't really care either

[16:03:01.0000] <annevk>
but it's trivial to add them in the spec

[16:03:02.0000] <annevk>
and prolly trivial in implementations too

[16:04:00.0000] <twanj>
/me (n=chatzill⊙chfcn) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))

[16:06:00.0000] <annevk>
/me asks some other implementors

[16:07:00.0000] <othermaciej>
it is more typical DOM practice to have named constants and not just bare numbers with special meanings for things like this

[16:08:00.0000] <annevk>
yup

[16:11:00.0000] <Dashiva>
And the longer the better

[16:11:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't understand why people think <object> is a good thing

[16:11:02.0000] <othermaciej>
"I'm including something" doesn't seem very semantically meaningful

[16:12:00.0000] <othermaciej>
making things more generic runs counter to the very idea of semantic markup

[16:12:01.0000] <Dashiva>
I don't think it's on semantical grounds, more for simplicity and fear of redundance (my guesswork only, of course)

[16:12:02.0000] <Hixie>
<object> is anything but simple

[16:13:00.0000] <othermaciej>
<object> is possibly the most complex element in all of HTML

[16:13:01.0000] <Dashiva>
But not changing the status quo is simpler than doing so

[16:14:00.0000] <Hixie>
maybe we should drop <object> from HTML5 altogether

[16:14:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me ducks

[16:14:02.0000] <Dashiva>
heh

[16:14:03.0000] <othermaciej>
heh

[16:14:04.0000] <Dashiva>
I'm sure macromedia would love that

[16:14:05.0000] <Hixie>
we have <embed> for plugins

[16:14:06.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: is there a list anywhere of which elements HTML5 drops or deprecates that are in HTML4? Is that on the wiki?

[16:15:00.0000] <Hixie>
dunno off hand, there might be

[16:15:01.0000] <annevk>
<embed> works better for Flash than <object> anyway

[16:15:02.0000] <Dashiva>
Does object serve any purposes that aren't served by specific elements?

[16:15:03.0000] <hasather>
/me (n=hasather⊙8ttc) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))

[16:15:04.0000] <Dashiva>
iframe, img, video eats up a lot of it

[16:15:05.0000] <Dashiva>
If embed handles plugins, what's left?

[16:15:06.0000] <hasather>
/me (n=hasather⊙8ttc) Quit (Remote closed the connection)

[16:16:00.0000] <annevk>
audio...

[16:16:01.0000] <annevk>
but there's an API for that

[16:16:02.0000] <Hixie>
we have Audio() for that

[16:16:03.0000] <Hixie>
(i don't really undertand how <audio> would make sense)

[16:16:04.0000] <annevk>
after thinking about it some more me neither

[16:16:05.0000] <Dashiva>
For playing music?

[16:16:06.0000] <othermaciej>
I think <audio> makes sense

[16:16:07.0000] <annevk>
how would it work?

[16:17:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Like embed, or bgsound if you want

[16:17:01.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: what does it represent?

[16:17:02.0000] <annevk>
if it's about the UI you just want a declarative interface to Audio() through buttons or something

[16:17:03.0000] <othermaciej>
it represents an embedded semantic/foreground sound, analogous to img and video

[16:17:04.0000] <annevk>
othermaciej, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_vs._XHTML#Markup_2 has element and attribute changes

[16:17:05.0000] <Dashiva>
Well, it frees you from depending on scripts

[16:17:06.0000] <annevk>
might not be up to date

[16:17:07.0000] <othermaciej>
this will be easier to discuss on Monday so I'll hold off for now

[16:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
crap gotta go ref the finals

[16:18:01.0000] <Hixie>
bbiab

[16:18:02.0000] <Dashiva>
annevk: I see it sort of like event-source

[16:19:00.0000] <othermaciej>
wow, "target" attribute is removed?

[16:19:01.0000] <annevk>
it was recently added again I think

[16:19:02.0000] <annevk>
i'll fix that

[16:20:00.0000] <othermaciej>
most of the obsolete attributes seem rightfully obsoleted, but many of the obsolete elements are in the "browsers will have to implement these anyway" category

[16:21:00.0000] <met_>
osolete Elements: acronym (use <abbr> instead) = reason for this?

[16:21:01.0000] <annevk>
those will prolly be in the rendering section for exactly that reason

[16:21:02.0000] <annevk>
met_, there's no real useful difference and authors are constantly confused as to which to use

[16:21:03.0000] <othermaciej>
met_: please see archives of the many debates on this

[16:21:04.0000] <annevk>
othermaciej, just like the parsing section handles all elements the rendering section will (hopefully anyway) too

[16:22:00.0000] <othermaciej>
annevk: maybe there should be some category of elements that conformant implementations must implement, but which can never appear in a conformant document and must be rejected by conformance checkers

[16:22:01.0000] <othermaciej>
like a stronger version of deprecation

[16:22:02.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't think relegating it to the conformance section makes sense, since in some cases the API may matter too

[16:22:03.0000] <annevk>
othermaciej, yes, that's what I said :)

[16:22:04.0000] <met_>
othermaciej, any way how to fullsearch mailing list other than google site:lists.whatwg.org ?

[16:22:05.0000] <annevk>
rendering section only applies to implementors

[16:22:06.0000] <othermaciej>
although I suppose defining the content model for an intrinsically nonconformant element is kinda pointless

[16:23:00.0000] <annevk>
yup

[16:23:01.0000] <annevk>
you just need parsing + rendering

[16:23:02.0000] <othermaciej>
annevk: maybe it shouldn't be called "rendering" if it might contain APIs and attribute definitions

[16:23:03.0000] <othermaciej>
you need parsing, rendering, how to interpret the attributes, etc

[16:23:04.0000] <annevk>
oh, dunno about APIs

[16:23:05.0000] <othermaciej>
met_: I dunno

[16:23:06.0000] <annevk>
for <body> and such you'd have to define a lot of additional stuff too then

[16:24:00.0000] <annevk>
(for instance)

[16:24:01.0000] <annevk>
link@target and form@target are still on the page as they're not defined yet

[16:25:00.0000] <annevk>
<font> is also in HTML5

[16:27:00.0000] <annevk>
fixed that too

[16:28:00.0000] <met_>
not sure about acronym dropping, but ok I can live without it 8-), but general question from this

[16:28:01.0000] <met_>
many people will ask "why you drop this", "why you add this" etc. etc. and there is no other answer than "see in mailing list archive".

[16:28:02.0000] <met_>
may be there is need from "something" faq, wiki answers, dunno, otherwise you will see "why you drop acronym" and other questions for hundred and hundred times

[16:29:00.0000] <hasather_>
/me (n=hasather⊙8ttc) Quit (Remote closed the connection)

[16:29:01.0000] <annevk>
you are free to do so

[16:29:02.0000] <annevk>
encouraged even

[16:30:00.0000] <met_>
not sure if i am the right person, still do not orientate in spec enough 

[16:30:01.0000] <met_>
btw full text mailing list search exists at http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/

[16:31:00.0000] <icaaq>
/me calls it in for the night. Kepp up the good work :)

[16:34:00.0000] <hasather>
/me (n=hasather⊙8ttc) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[16:34:01.0000] <annevk>
/me uses "g <string> inurl:whatwg-whatwg" for searching mostly

[16:38:00.0000] <annevk>
/me -> bed

[16:53:00.0000] <met_>
/me (n=Hassman⊙rnuc) Quit ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")

[16:53:01.0000] <hasather_>
/me (n=hasather⊙8ttc) has left #whatwg

[16:56:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: yeah don't worry in due course we'll be defining all the various elements that browsers have to support

[16:56:01.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: but they won't be "HTML5"

[16:56:02.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: (the parsing section already does this -- it defines parsing for dozens of obsolete elements)

[16:58:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: i guess <audio> could make sense if it implies ui controls (unlike <video> which doesn't in v1, though probably would in v2)


2007-03-18
[17:16:00.0000] <sayrer>
I don't understand the objections to <audio>

[17:23:00.0000] <Lachy>
The audio and video APIs should be made the same, except for the width/height

[17:25:00.0000] <Lachy>
I haven't made up my mind about <audio> yet. In some ways, Audio() provides all the necessary features for using Audio with script, but <audio> provides a declerative way to embed audio, potentially with a UA supplied UI that also provides the API

[17:26:00.0000] <sayrer>
also volume controls and other things that hover over the content area probably need to work differently for vide

[17:26:01.0000] <Lachy>
I know <embed> and <object> already provide a way to embed audio with a plugin-supplied-UI, but that audio doesn't have any API

[17:29:00.0000] <Lachy>
oh, it would be cool if the API could provide access to the ID3 tag info (or equivalent) in audio and video files

[17:31:00.0000] <sayrer>
yeah. it would be good not specify it idl

[17:31:01.0000] <sayrer>
so it can be a dictionary (JS Object)

[17:31:02.0000] <Lachy>
sayrer, what?

[17:32:00.0000] <Lachy>
care to rephrase that?

[17:32:01.0000] <sayrer>
Lachy: I don't think we want an AudioMetadataInterface

[17:32:02.0000] <Lachy>
why not?

[17:33:00.0000] <sayrer>
because it will be easier to do it adhoc

[17:33:01.0000] <sayrer>
see what keys people use

[17:34:00.0000] <sayrer>
there is already a big list in id3, right?

[17:34:01.0000] <hasather_>
/me (n=hasather⊙8ttc) Quit (Remote closed the connection)

[17:35:00.0000] <Lachy>
/me is looking up the list of ID3 tags

[17:42:00.0000] <Lachy>
couldn't a metadata API be as simple as getValue(key);? Then there are no limits on what keys can be accessed

[17:43:00.0000] <hasather_>
/me (n=hasather⊙8ttc) Quit (Remote closed the connection)

[17:43:01.0000] <Lachy>
we definitely don't want getArtistName() getAlbumName(), etc. cause that's not very extensible

[17:46:00.0000] <hasather_>
/me (n=hasather⊙8ttc) has left #whatwg

[17:52:00.0000] <hendry>
/me (n=hendry⊙9851) Quit ("nn")

[17:53:00.0000] <sayrer>
Lachy: I agree. might be better to specify them as JSON and let implementations bind them per-language

[17:58:00.0000] <tantek>
/me (n=tantek⊙6192) Quit ()

[18:20:00.0000] <Lachy>
sayrer, do you mean to expose the data in JSON format like {"Artist":"Someone", "Album":"Something", ... } ?

[18:20:01.0000] <sayrer>
Lachy, I mean define it in JSON, and say the actual API is per-language

[18:21:00.0000] <Lachy>
define what in JSON?

[18:21:01.0000] <sayrer>
so in JS and Python, say, it is just a your normal object

[18:21:02.0000] <Lachy>
the API?

[18:21:03.0000] <sayrer>
say it is a JSON dictionary and give a couple super obvious keys

[18:21:04.0000] <sayrer>
in Java, it could be a hashtable

[18:22:00.0000] <Lachy>
but what exactly does "it" refer to?

[18:22:01.0000] <sayrer>
"the metadata"

[18:22:02.0000] <Lachy>
I'm so confused

[18:22:03.0000] <sayrer>
so, you had it right in your example

[18:23:00.0000] <Lachy>
oh, ok. I thought I had it wrong because of what you said afterwards

[18:23:01.0000] <sayrer>
in JS it would be 

[18:23:02.0000] <sayrer>
>> audio.metadata.Artist

[18:23:03.0000] <sayrer>
"Someone"

[18:23:04.0000] <sayrer>
in Java, it would be uglier

[18:58:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, yt?

[18:59:00.0000] <Lachy>
the stop() method appears to be missing from the HTMLVideoElement IDL

[19:01:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Lachy: a metadata API can't be that simple

[19:02:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I just got 28 mailing list messages for all of today in one huge chunk...

[19:06:00.0000] <sayrer>
/me (n=chatzill⊙ucmc) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.73-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.4/2006050908]")

[19:07:00.0000] <hasather_>
Dashiva: digest?

[19:20:00.0000] <webben>
/me (n=benjamin⊙9812) Quit ("Leaving")

[19:20:01.0000] <Dashiva>
No, regular mail. Must've been a choke somewhere along the way to me

[20:03:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok i am now here

[20:37:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, I've been thinking about whether or not we need an audio element and there are a couple of advantages to having it

[20:38:00.0000] <Lachy>
it would make the audio available to users without script

[20:39:00.0000] <Lachy>
<audio ui="on"> could provide a UI, similar to what we get with object/embed today

[20:42:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah but we'd still have to have the API to do sound effects

[20:42:01.0000] <Hixie>
so it's yet another feature

[20:42:02.0000] <Lachy>
adding support for visulatisations could be done in the future as well, if there were a screen provided for it

[20:46:00.0000] <Lachy>
well, there are some use cases for it too. Providing music previews on a music site like this, which currently uses flash: http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/bradsucks-dontknow/hifi_play

[20:47:00.0000] <Hixie>
that would use the Audio API, not the element, since it makes its own UI and everything

[20:48:00.0000] <Lachy>
possibly, but the API would need to be enhanced. The spec also says Audio() is desiged for sound effects, not streaming music like that does

[20:48:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[20:48:02.0000] <Hixie>
well it certainly is at the moment

[20:50:00.0000] <Lachy>
but even if it were enhanced, users without script (like many mobile phone) would have no alternative

[20:54:00.0000] <Dashiva>
streaming is a very good use case

[20:57:00.0000] <Lachy>
is there an open format that supports streaming for live broadcasts, or only proprietary formats like those used in Real Player and Windows Media Player?

[20:57:01.0000] <hasather_>
/me (n=hasather⊙8ttc) has left #whatwg

[20:58:00.0000] <Dashiva>
The format used in shoutcast, maybe? Not sure

[21:03:00.0000] <tantek>
/me (n=tantek⊙6192) Quit ()

[21:07:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: i haven't added them yet but all the events on <video> can be event listener attributes, and Audio is an EventTarget too

[21:08:00.0000] <Lachy>
I thought they would be

[00:56:00.0000] <csarven>
/me (n=nevrasc⊙m1mvc) Quit ()

[01:21:00.0000] <annevk>
/me (n=annevk⊙8972) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[03:18:00.0000] <annevk>
/me (n=annevk⊙8972) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))


2007-03-19
[03:05:00.0000] <annevk>
yay

[03:05:01.0000] <Charl>
ok this time the fault was my server, not whatbo

[03:05:02.0000] <Charl>
not the logbot system

[03:06:00.0000] <krijnh>
MS still didn't join the WG?

[03:06:01.0000] <annevk>
nope

[03:09:00.0000] <krijnh>
Are they going to?

[03:10:00.0000] <annevk>
well, one of the Microsofties is co-chairing the group

[03:11:00.0000] <annevk>
I assume Chris is fighting some internal lawyer to get him (and others) in

[03:12:00.0000] <krijnh>
Hmm

[03:16:00.0000] <karlUshi>
annevk: ?

[03:17:00.0000] <annevk>
karlUshi, as logbot for this channel

[03:19:00.0000] <Charl>
i obviously missed the discussion earlier on

[03:19:01.0000] <Charl>
but we really need to get a better host for the logbot

[03:19:02.0000] <karlUshi>
annevk: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2001/sw/logger/

[03:20:00.0000] <Charl>
at the moment whatbot is running on a server sitting beneath my desk

[03:21:00.0000] <annevk>
well, hosting it too

[03:21:01.0000] <annevk>
if I could host a logbot I would've done so

[03:21:02.0000] <annevk>
but my host doesn't allow it :(

[03:21:03.0000] <annevk>
Charl :)

[03:21:04.0000] <krijnh>
What's needed for it to host it?

[03:21:05.0000] <annevk>
krijnh, a server that allows IRC connections I suppose

[03:21:06.0000] <krijnh>
Makes sense ;]

[03:21:07.0000] <krijnh>
I'll ask my host

[03:22:00.0000] <Charl>
you see the problem is this

[03:22:01.0000] <Charl>
one can host it anywhere

[03:22:02.0000] <Charl>
but you have some funny PHP hack

[03:22:03.0000] <Charl>
that you need to run on some webserver

[03:22:04.0000] <Charl>
together with the logs

[03:22:05.0000] <krijnh>
Ah

[03:22:06.0000] <karlUshi>
what's wrond with whatbot?

[03:22:07.0000] <Charl>
in other words, your host needs to have a public static IP address

[03:22:08.0000] <krijnh>
Charl: we've hacked php for your site as well ;)

[03:22:09.0000] <karlUshi>
s/wrond/wrong/

[03:23:00.0000] <annevk>
karlUshi, unstable

[03:23:01.0000] <Charl>
krijnh: that original cms i had going was a hack and nothing but a hack :)

[03:23:02.0000] <krijnh>
Charl: You mean wordpress? :)

[03:23:03.0000] <krijnh>
With the mysqli hack

[03:23:04.0000] <Charl>
krijnh: oh no that was before i even installed WP :)

[03:24:00.0000] <krijnh>
Ah

[03:24:01.0000] <Charl>
krijnh: now i am pwned because there is an update to the WP DB file

[03:24:02.0000] <Charl>
so hacking all over agaIN

[03:24:03.0000] <krijnh>
You're using wp 2 now right?

[03:24:04.0000] <Charl>
yeah 2.0 still

[03:24:05.0000] <krijnh>
Which reminds me, I still have to send you a bill

[03:24:06.0000] <krijnh>
;)

[03:24:07.0000] <karlUshi>
why guys you haven't tried chump?

[03:25:00.0000] <karlUshi>
http://usefulinc.com/chump/

[03:25:01.0000] <karlUshi>
example of use

[03:25:02.0000] <karlUshi>
http://swig.xmlhack.com/

[03:25:03.0000] <Charl>
krijnh: cool bill me any time, i'll pay you in south african rands, they're not worth anything in europe anyway :)

[03:26:00.0000] <krijnh>
Hehe

[03:42:00.0000] <krijnh>
Charl: How is Fidelis going btw?

[03:43:00.0000] <karlUshi>
I'm off for today.

[03:44:00.0000] <Charl>
krijnh: sorry was away from the keyboard quickly

[03:44:01.0000] <Charl>
krijnh: am busy getting started on a very simple blogging system

[03:44:02.0000] <Charl>
krijnh: can't stand WP any longer

[03:45:00.0000] <krijnh>
(Use QMS)

[03:45:01.0000] <krijnh>
/me (n=krijnhoe⊙kxn) has left #whatwg

[03:45:02.0000] <krijnh>
Whoops

[03:54:00.0000] <annevk>
/me (n=annevk⊙8972) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[03:55:00.0000] <krijnh>
http://blog.whatwg.org/html5lib-09-released#comment-2345

[04:06:00.0000] <annevk>
seems like we might get Animated PNG soonish

[04:06:01.0000] <annevk>
in Mozilla that is

[04:06:02.0000] <annevk>
otoh, that has been going on for some time now as well...

[04:38:00.0000] <Lachy>
krijnh, thanks, spam is removed

[04:38:01.0000] <krijnh>
Np

[04:39:00.0000] <krijnh>
Lachy: Are you still working on Fidelis?

[04:39:01.0000] <Lachy>
when I have time

[05:05:00.0000] <Charl>
/me (n=charlvn⊙nmcz) Quit ("Leaving")

[05:05:01.0000] <annevk>
/me wonders if people considered that Hixie works for the company that does Youtube

[05:06:00.0000] <krijnh>
I hadn't

[05:07:00.0000] <Lachy>
/me wonders if Hixie's actually had a chance to discuss <video> with the people that work on youtube

[05:08:00.0000] <Hemebond>
<video>?

[05:08:01.0000] <Lachy>
Hemebond, yes

[05:08:02.0000] <Hemebond>
Surely there's not to be an element <video>...

[05:09:00.0000] <annevk>
surely there is

[05:09:01.0000] <Lachy>
http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#video

[05:09:02.0000] <Hemebond>
*saigh*

[05:09:03.0000] <Hemebond>
er

[05:09:04.0000] <Hemebond>
*sigh*

[05:10:00.0000] <annevk>
see topic

[05:10:01.0000] <krijnh>
annevk: I only considered you're working for the company that's already testing with <video> :)

[05:10:02.0000] <Lachy>
why?

[05:10:03.0000] <annevk>
s/testing/playing/

[05:10:04.0000] <Hemebond>
"Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!"

[05:10:05.0000] <krijnh>
annevk: Same to me

[05:10:06.0000] <Hemebond>
That's what I forgot to do. I only hung up my coat.

[05:10:07.0000] <annevk>
krijnh, fair enough

[05:11:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hemebond, why don't you like the idea of <video>

[05:11:01.0000] <Hemebond>
Because it's a step backwards.

[05:11:02.0000] <Lachy>
how so?

[05:11:03.0000] <annevk>
Hemebond, you did read the proposal, did you?

[05:11:04.0000] <Hemebond>
I would have liked to see more generalisation.

[05:11:05.0000] <Hemebond>
No.

[05:11:06.0000] <Hemebond>
Wait a second...

[05:11:07.0000] <Hemebond>
Who are you Anne?

[05:12:00.0000] <Hemebond>
Not http://annevankesteren.nl/2007/03/public-html ...

[05:12:01.0000] <Lachy>
<video> offers a specific a API for working with video using script

[05:12:02.0000] <annevk>
Hemebond, http://www.google.com/search?q=anne

[05:12:03.0000] <Hemebond>
Heh. It was your latest post that led me here.

[05:12:04.0000] <annevk>
Hemebond, yes, I wrote that

[05:12:05.0000] <annevk>
cool

[05:12:06.0000] <annevk>
welcome

[05:13:00.0000] <Hemebond>
Thanks.

[05:13:01.0000] <Lachy>
Hemebond, if you don't like video, you might not like the idea of <audio> either, which is currently being discussed :-)

[05:14:00.0000] <Hemebond>
Heh. Doesn't appeal to me, no.

[05:14:01.0000] <krijnh>
I think there's more use for <video> than for <audio>

[05:15:00.0000] <Lachy>
I think we need <audio> or at least improve the Audio() API

[05:15:01.0000] <krijnh>
<video role="just-an-audio-wrapper" src="music.mp3">

[05:16:00.0000] <Lachy>
there is no role attr in HTML5

[05:16:01.0000] <krijnh>
There's kidding in my line though

[05:16:02.0000] <Lachy>
<audio> would be cool if browsers could provide their own UI or even visualisations

[05:16:03.0000] <virtuelv>
Hemebond: why exactly don't you like <video>?

[05:17:00.0000] <Hemebond>
I prefer generalisation.

[05:17:01.0000] <Hemebond>
<object>

[05:18:00.0000] <annevk>
why is generalization good?

[05:18:01.0000] <virtuelv>
Hemebond: besides the API complexity annevk has pointed at, there is one more issue: author simplicity

[05:18:02.0000] <annevk>
i mean, "I prefer <tag>"

[05:18:03.0000] <Hemebond>
Heh

[05:18:04.0000] <annevk>
pretty meaningless

[05:19:00.0000] <virtuelv>
you can (mostly) use <object> in place of <img> today, and have richer fallbacks, or multiple fallbacks, yet virtually noone uses it

[05:19:01.0000] <Hemebond>
I do.

[05:19:02.0000] <Hemebond>
I love object.

[05:21:00.0000] <annevk>
that's about the only advantage of <object> over <img>

[05:21:01.0000] <annevk>
and generally you don't need richer fallback so it's not much of a problem

[05:22:00.0000] <virtuelv>
annevk: my point exactly

[05:23:00.0000] <Hemebond>
Wasn't the whole point of <object> to get away from the "tag for everything" problem?

[05:23:01.0000] <Hemebond>
Or "issue"?

[05:24:00.0000] <annevk>
I think so

[05:24:01.0000] <annevk>
since then we found out that it doesn't work

[05:24:02.0000] <Hemebond>
It doesn't?

[05:24:03.0000] <annevk>
too complex for implementors/authors, too complex to make sophisticated APIs for specialized content

[05:25:00.0000] <krijnh>
People can still use object of course

[05:25:01.0000] <annevk>
not really semantic

[05:25:02.0000] <krijnh>
If they want to use a not-so-open format and a browser plugin

[05:25:03.0000] <annevk>
yeah, although I think <embed> is prolly more compatible for that

[05:25:04.0000] <krijnh>
Probably

[05:27:00.0000] <krijnh>
<object> is for external plugins (basically), <img>, <video> and <audio> are cross platform, cross UA elements

[05:29:00.0000] <annevk>
<object> is also ok for SVG, and HTML documents although I suppose you might as well use <iframe>

[05:29:01.0000] <Lachy>
I assume <video> doesn't have to mean native support, does it? Surely whether or not some format is supported natively or with a plugin is just an implementation detail?

[05:29:02.0000] <annevk>
Lachy, I think that's the plan although not everyone agrees

[05:29:03.0000] <krijnh>
Hmm, then I don't think <video> makes sense

[05:29:04.0000] <annevk>
howcome for instance, thinks it should imply native support

[05:29:05.0000] <krijnh>
Or are the methods just passed on to the plugin?

[05:29:06.0000] <annevk>
krijnh, why? It's about the API and semantics, not about content

[05:30:00.0000] <Hemebond>
Couldn't semantics be implied by the content-type?

[05:30:01.0000] <annevk>
Hemebond, too late imo

[05:30:02.0000] <Lachy>
as long as the browser can pass it's API calls onto the plugin, there shouldn't be a problem

[05:30:03.0000] <Hemebond>
Too late?

[05:30:04.0000] <annevk>
you want the semantics to be clear before fetching data

[05:31:00.0000] <Hemebond>
What about the type attribute?

[05:31:01.0000] <Lachy>
though, if the system as a codec for some format, then the browser should just be able to use that and run it natively

[05:31:02.0000] <krijnh>
I agree

[05:31:03.0000] <annevk>
Hemebond, that's only relevant when data= isn't set

[05:31:04.0000] <annevk>
Hemebond, if data= is set it's just ignored

[05:31:05.0000] <Hemebond>
Oh is it? Hmm, I've always set both.

[05:31:06.0000] <krijnh>
I think you'll get the same issues as with Real, QuickTime, etc else

[05:32:00.0000] <Hemebond>
Oh I see. HTML 5 has that.

[05:32:01.0000] <annevk>
Hemebond, browsers too

[05:32:02.0000] <annevk>
Hemebond, you're allowed to set both though

[05:32:03.0000] <Hemebond>
Oh.

[05:32:04.0000] <annevk>
topic ;)

[05:32:05.0000] <Lachy>
the major problem I have with making it only native support is that most digital cameras available today only capture in patented formats, so that would make <video> useless to all those who don't know how/want to convert

[05:33:00.0000] <Hemebond>
Topic? Is there a specific topic I should be keeping to?

[05:33:01.0000] <annevk>
Hemebond, don't assume things are logical

[05:33:02.0000] <Lachy>
Hemebond, no.

[05:33:03.0000] <Hemebond>
Oh I see.

[05:33:04.0000] <Hemebond>
But I want logiiiiiiic *whine*

[05:33:05.0000] <Lachy>
converstaions often get chaotic in here, and I often just say random things

[05:33:06.0000] <krijnh>
Same here :)

[05:33:07.0000] <krijnh>
And half of what I say makes no sense anyway

[05:34:00.0000] <Hemebond>
Are you a spec?

[05:34:01.0000] <krijnh>
Who?

[05:34:02.0000] <Hemebond>
NVM

[05:36:00.0000] <Hemebond>
I guess I'll stick to learning XHTML2

[05:36:01.0000] <krijnh>
I think the openness of the web is more expressed in <videmus> than in <video> btw :p

[05:37:00.0000] <annevk>
Hemebond, XHTML2? And use it where?

[05:38:00.0000] <Hemebond>
I dunno.

[05:38:01.0000] <Hemebond>
I just like it, is all.

[05:38:02.0000] <Hemebond>
I could use XSL to tranform it to regular XHTML1.1

[05:39:00.0000] <krijnh>
Client side XSL?

[05:39:01.0000] <mpt>
Esperanto!

[05:39:02.0000] <Hemebond>
Could do.

[05:39:03.0000] <krijnh>
Why would you want that?

[05:39:04.0000] <Hemebond>
*shrug*

[05:40:00.0000] <Hemebond>
I don't make websites for a living anymore.

[05:40:01.0000] <Lachy>
what do you do for a living?

[05:40:02.0000] <krijnh>
Are you going to again? :)

[05:41:00.0000] <Hemebond>
krijnh: I spend a lot of time reading about it. Playing with it. But then I think of the customers, the incompatibilities, IE, etc...

[05:41:01.0000] <Hemebond>
And I'm not sure I could be bothered with it.

[05:41:02.0000] <Hemebond>
Lachy: Network technician.

[05:43:00.0000] <krijnh>
Hemebond: Then why stick to learning xhtml2?

[05:43:01.0000] <Hemebond>
I think it's a nice evolution of XHTML

[05:44:00.0000] <Hemebond>
And HTML in general.

[05:44:01.0000] <Lachy>
trust us, it's not

[05:44:02.0000] <Lachy>
it has too many flaws

[05:44:03.0000] <Hemebond>
It does?

[05:44:04.0000] <annevk>
So which parts exactly do you like?

[05:44:05.0000] <Hemebond>
I admit I've only looked at it breifly.

[05:45:00.0000] <Hemebond>
I like the idea of <section><h>

[05:45:01.0000] <annevk>
I mean, we tried to incorperate all good ideas into HTML5

[05:45:02.0000] <annevk>
That'd be one of those ideas :)

[05:45:03.0000] <Lachy>
e.g. href on any element: browser vendors have said that's very difficult to implement

[05:45:04.0000] <krijnh>
:)

[05:45:05.0000] <Lachy>
same with src="", and many other global attributes

[05:46:00.0000] <krijnh>
That's the generalisation part Hemebond likes, I think

[05:46:01.0000] <Lachy>
the spec itself leaves many things totally undefined

[05:46:02.0000] <ROBOd>
/me (n=robod⊙8321) Quit ("http://www.robodesign.ro")

[05:47:00.0000] <Lachy>
from an authoring perspective, global attributes look nice on the surface. There was a time when I thought the idea was great, till I looked at the reality of the situation

[05:47:01.0000] <ravenn>
/me (n=ravenn⊙2dina) has left #whatwg

[05:48:00.0000] <krijnh>
Is there a thread about the alternatives?

[05:48:01.0000] <krijnh>
Like, not href on every element, but on some?

[05:48:02.0000] <krijnh>
<img href>

[05:49:00.0000] <Lachy>
still a problem with backwards compat

[05:49:01.0000] <krijnh>
True

[05:50:00.0000] <annevk>
note that <a> is not just href=

[05:50:01.0000] <annevk>
<a> is quite complex

[05:50:02.0000] <annevk>
the proposal effectively makes every element that much more complex

[05:50:03.0000] <annevk>
for not that much benefit (besides the fact that it breaks backwards compatibility)

[05:50:04.0000] <krijnh>
And every piece of software which checks "links" as well

[05:50:05.0000] <Lachy>
yes, if href goes on any element, we'd also need target, ping, rel, media ,hreflang and type

[05:51:00.0000] <annevk>
and the API

[05:51:01.0000] <annevk>
and we need to define what happens for elements which now have multiple activation behaviors

[05:51:02.0000] <annevk>
such as <input>

[05:51:03.0000] <Lachy>
and type="" would clash with other uses of type on other elements

[05:51:04.0000] <annevk>
i should blog about this too i think

[05:52:00.0000] <krijnh>
You should :)

[05:52:01.0000] <Lachy>
I should blog about something too. it's been about a month since I've posted :-)

[05:52:02.0000] <krijnh>
And say that <a> should just allow block level elements

[05:52:03.0000] <Lachy>
I even forgot to post on my b'day!

[05:52:04.0000] <krijnh>
Which solves the problem mostly, I guess

[05:52:05.0000] <krijnh>
And is backwards compatible

[05:53:00.0000] <Lachy>
/me has a draft post about the problems with Outlook to post soon, plus some more on XBL

[05:53:01.0000] <annevk>
/me wants an impl of XBL

[05:54:00.0000] <Hemebond>
Mozilla not enough?

[05:54:01.0000] <krijnh>
Lachy: You were too busy licking Tim ;)

[05:54:02.0000] <annevk>
it's like a new box of tricks

[05:54:03.0000] <annevk>
Hemebond, I meant XBL2

[05:54:04.0000] <Hemebond>
Ah.

[05:54:05.0000] <Lachy>
XBL2, Moz only has XBL1

[05:54:06.0000] <Lachy>
did someone post a photo of me on timwouldlickti?

[05:55:00.0000] <Lachy>
the other Lachlan's been licked so many times, I feel like I'm missing out ;-)

[05:59:00.0000] <krijnh>
Aaw, poor you :)

[06:00:00.0000] <krijnh>
/me (n=krijnhoe⊙kxn) Quit ()

[06:04:00.0000] <virtuelv>
/me (n=virtuelv⊙poc) Quit ("Leaving")

[06:42:00.0000] <annevk>
hmm, do implementations also check <?xml encoding="x"?> for character encoding sniffing in text/html?

[06:43:00.0000] <Lachy>
I don't think so

[06:48:00.0000] <annevk>
according to a WebKit dev they do

[06:48:01.0000] <Lachy>
maybe web kit does, but I'm fairly sure IE and FF don't

[06:49:00.0000] <Lachy>
/me makes a test case...

[06:49:01.0000] <annevk>
IE is what matters i suppose

[06:49:02.0000] <annevk>
XHR encoding detection is a mess too

[06:50:00.0000] <annevk>
it doesn't actually follow any rules or something

[06:50:01.0000] <Lachy>
the test showed that FF does, IE doesn't

[06:51:00.0000] <Lachy>
I'm sure Hixie would have tested that when he wrote the encoding sniffing algorithm

[06:51:01.0000] <Lachy>
does XHR follow XML rules for XML types?

[06:52:00.0000] <annevk>
well yes

[06:52:01.0000] <annevk>
but there's also responseText

[06:52:02.0000] <Lachy>
oh good

[06:52:03.0000] <Lachy>
yeah, I expected there to be problems with that

[06:52:04.0000] <annevk>
at some point the fallback has to be UTF-8

[06:52:05.0000] <annevk>
for when no content-type is provided

[06:52:06.0000] <annevk>
for when it's text/plain

[06:53:00.0000] <Lachy>
I think you can probably adopt the HTML5 algorithm for text/html

[06:53:01.0000] <annevk>
implementors say no

[06:53:02.0000] <Lachy>
really?

[06:53:03.0000] <Lachy>
why is text/html for XHR any different from other text/html?

[06:53:04.0000] <annevk>
well XHR doesn't follow text/css either atm

[06:54:00.0000] <annevk>
simplified:

[06:54:01.0000] <annevk>
1) if the response Content-Type specifies a charset, use it;

[06:54:02.0000] <annevk>
2) otherwise, if the response is XML follow XML rules;

[06:54:03.0000] <annevk>
3) otherwise, if Content-Type is not specified or empty, also follow XML rules;

[06:54:04.0000] <annevk>
4) otherwise, use utf-8, and do not look inside the response data.

[06:55:00.0000] <annevk>
not entirely clear to me how you arrive at 4 or how 3 would work

[06:55:01.0000] <Lachy>
does IE fallback to UTF-8 like that?

[06:56:00.0000] <annevk>
it seems so, although Bjoern discovered some other incompatibilities iirc

[06:56:01.0000] <peepo>
/me (n=Jay⊙hrbc) Quit ("later")

[07:02:00.0000] <BenWard>
/me (n=BenWard⊙cccnc) Quit ()

[07:11:00.0000] <icaaq>
/me (i=icaaaq⊙c2cbs) has left #whatwg

[07:38:00.0000] <Ashley_>
/me (n=ash⊙plbion) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))

[07:49:00.0000] <annevk>
the part on <script> should prolly deal with <!-- and --> in script blocks...

[07:49:01.0000] <annevk>
or does ECMAScript deal with that?

[07:50:00.0000] <virtuelv>
annevk: ecma-262-3 or 4 doesn't really deal with angle brackets at all

[07:51:00.0000] <virtuelv>
I would be fine if it was specified that browsers just ignore it

[07:51:01.0000] <virtuelv>
the problem is when you have constructs such as <script><!-- if (foo-->bar) --></script>

[07:51:02.0000] <virtuelv>
where does that comment end?

[07:52:00.0000] <annevk>
I suppose HTML would have to define it then

[07:52:01.0000] <annevk>
prolly makes more sense too

[07:54:00.0000] <virtuelv>
the bizarre thing is that the comments have been fluff since Netscape 2.0, or so

[07:55:00.0000] <krijnh>
Yet 'everybody' still adds them

[07:55:01.0000] <virtuelv>
krijnh: sadly, yes

[07:55:02.0000] <virtuelv>
I've advocated that people drop them for years

[07:56:00.0000] <Lachy>
sadly, there's actually a "modern" browser that requires the comments :-( Luckly, it can mostly be ignored

[07:56:01.0000] <krijnh>
Which one?

[07:56:02.0000] <virtuelv>
Lachy: which?

[07:56:03.0000] <Lachy>
the Motorolla v3 phone browser

[07:57:00.0000] <virtuelv>
in that case, ignore it

[07:57:01.0000] <Lachy>
it sucks big time

[07:57:02.0000] <Lachy>
I have to deal with it for the mobile sites I build at work

[07:57:03.0000] <krijnh>
In any case, external scripts

[07:57:04.0000] <Lachy>
yeah, external scripts should be used anyway

[07:58:00.0000] <Lachy>
though, not in all cases

[07:58:01.0000] <annevk>
/me was mainly asking this as implementor / testcase writer

[07:59:00.0000] <Lachy>
/--> gets ignored by the script engine because it's commented out, it causes an error if it's not commented

[07:59:01.0000] <Lachy>
<!-- should be ignroed by the script engine

[08:00:00.0000] <Lachy>
I know in CSS, the CSS parser specifically deals with <!-- and -->

[08:00:01.0000] <krijnh>
With inline css?

[08:01:00.0000] <Lachy>
within <style><!-- --></style> and in external style sheets. I don't think within style="" is allowed

[08:01:01.0000] <Lachy>
check CSS2.1 syntax for an accurate answer

[08:03:00.0000] <krijnh>
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#comments

[08:03:01.0000] <krijnh>
Doh, makes sense

[08:03:02.0000] <virtuelv>
annevk: mostly, //.*--> gets ignored by the script parser

[08:03:03.0000] <virtuelv>
<!-- gets ignored

[08:04:00.0000] <virtuelv>
--> does not get ignored by everyone at least

[08:04:01.0000] <virtuelv>
constructing a test case is a bit hard, though

[08:04:02.0000] <Lachy>
--> causes syntax errors if it's not commented out with // or /* */

[08:05:00.0000] <virtuelv>
Lachy: again 'if (foo-->bar){ doSomething() } ' is, IIRC; perfectly legal ECMA syntax

[08:05:01.0000] <Lachy>
I think if <!-- appears in an external script, where it isn't touched by the HTML parser, the script engine handles it fine

[08:05:02.0000] <virtuelv>
ecmascript*

[08:06:00.0000] <annevk>
Lachy, for some value of "fine" I suppose?

[08:06:01.0000] <annevk>
in CSS that wouldn't work for instance

[08:06:02.0000] <Lachy>
what wouldn't work in CSS?

[08:07:00.0000] <annevk>
<!-- body { background:lime } in an external file

[08:07:01.0000] <annevk>
where

[08:07:02.0000] <annevk>
data:text/html,<style>%0a<!--body { background:lime }</style><body>test

[08:07:03.0000] <annevk>
does work

[08:08:00.0000] <Lachy>
it should do, the CSS sytnax rules looks like CDO and CDC are allowed to appear there

[08:09:00.0000] <Lachy>
stylesheet : [ CDO | CDC | S | statement ]*;

[08:15:00.0000] <Lachy>
good night

[08:16:00.0000] <PaiTrakt>
/me (n=opera⊙8) Quit (Client Quit)

[08:16:01.0000] <annevk>
oh, maybe i was mistaken

[08:16:02.0000] <annevk>
i suppose i confused it with people having <style> in their external style sheet

[08:20:00.0000] <peepo>
/me (n=Jay⊙hrbc) Quit ("later")

[09:12:00.0000] <hasather_>
/me (n=hasather⊙8ttc) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[09:23:00.0000] <om_sleep>
/me (n=mjs⊙dsdsn) Quit ()

[09:27:00.0000] <om_sleep>
/me (n=mjs⊙dsdsn) Quit (Client Quit)

[09:45:00.0000] <annevk>
/me (n=annevk⊙8972) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))

[09:54:00.0000] <mw22_______>
/me (n=chatzill⊙hdsn) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[09:56:00.0000] <BenWard>
/me (n=BenWard⊙cccnc) Quit ()

[10:15:00.0000] <sayrer_>
/me (n=chatzill⊙ucmc) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[10:19:00.0000] <krijnh>
annevk: Do you know if Mark Wubben is on irc somewhere?

[10:20:00.0000] <hasather>
krijnh: I can ask him to join here

[10:20:01.0000] <krijnh>
There should be a #sifr channel on this server, but there isn't one :)

[10:21:00.0000] <hasather>
hey markwubben

[10:21:01.0000] <annevk>
magic

[10:21:02.0000] <krijnh>
Magic indeed

[10:21:03.0000] <krijnh>
:)

[10:21:04.0000] <markwubben>
krijnh: two people started asking me to join!

[10:21:05.0000] <markwubben>
(namely david and anne)

[10:21:06.0000] <krijnh>
Hehe, hooray for IM

[10:22:00.0000] <krijnh>
markwubben: where is #sifr ?

[10:22:01.0000] <krijnh>
Or can I just bug you with a question? :)

[10:22:02.0000] <markwubben>
perhaps in #osflash, nobody ever came to the sifr channel so i stopped hanging out

[10:22:03.0000] <markwubben>
sure

[10:23:00.0000] <krijnh>
Using 2.0.2, IE uses <object> in stead of <embed>, which it did in 2.0.1

[10:24:00.0000] <krijnh>
Is that a bug or correct behaviour?

[10:24:01.0000] <markwubben>
correct

[10:24:02.0000] <krijnh>
K

[10:24:03.0000] <markwubben>
IE screwed up after the Eolas patch

[10:24:04.0000] <krijnh>
Cause the flashvars are added as a query string to the swf

[10:24:05.0000] <markwubben>
using embed

[10:24:06.0000] <markwubben>
on some machines

[10:24:07.0000] <markwubben>
correct, and that's beginning to bite

[10:24:08.0000] <krijnh>
Yeah, pretty irritating

[10:24:09.0000] <markwubben>
reason is, if you don't and the innerhtml of an ancestor is changed, ie will forget the vars

[10:25:00.0000] <markwubben>
i didn't quite realize back then that it would cause other problems

[10:25:01.0000] <markwubben>
but you should use sifr 3 anyway

[10:25:02.0000] <markwubben>
;)

[10:25:03.0000] <krijnh>
I should

[10:25:04.0000] <krijnh>
:)

[10:25:05.0000] <krijnh>
Ready for public?

[10:28:00.0000] <markwubben>
the latest nigthly is pretty good

[10:29:00.0000] <krijnh>
Pretty good as in it can be used on nfu.nl ?

[10:29:01.0000] <markwubben>
one issue with IE that could cause issues, but i haven't been able to look further into it

[10:29:02.0000] <markwubben>
it's a lot better than 2.0.2

[10:30:00.0000] <markwubben>
the IE issue appears to be minor, and only occurs if you have an innerhtml dom manipulation right inside the page (so no onload events etc)

[10:30:01.0000] <markwubben>
so yea, use it

[10:30:02.0000] <krijnh>
Okay, I will

[10:30:03.0000] <markwubben>
just make sure to stay up to date with newer versions

[10:30:04.0000] <krijnh>
That's the problem

[10:30:05.0000] <markwubben>
not all, but important fixes and releases

[10:30:06.0000] <markwubben>
yea i know :)

[10:30:07.0000] <krijnh>
I don't have control over this server :/

[10:32:00.0000] <krijnh>
And I hope TYPO3 won't screw up

[10:32:01.0000] <krijnh>
Anyway

[10:32:02.0000] <krijnh>
Thanks :)

[10:32:03.0000] <markwubben>
well, let them decide then

[10:32:04.0000] <markwubben>
sIFR 3 will save them a lot of bandwith

[10:32:05.0000] <markwubben>
cause it fixes IE and Safari's problems with fetching the flash movies

[10:33:00.0000] <krijnh>
I should convince them to use my cms and server then ;p

[10:38:00.0000] <tantek>
/me (n=tantek⊙adspn) Quit ()

[10:40:00.0000] <krijnh>
markwubben: thanks, je mag weer gaan ;o)

[10:40:01.0000] <markwubben>
lol

[10:40:02.0000] <markwubben>
i'll stick around until colloquy restarts

[10:40:03.0000] <krijnh>
:)

[10:58:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
/me (n=zcorpan⊙8sts) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))

[10:59:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Charl: i've made some changes to the status script

[11:00:00.0000] <Charl>
cool, can i re-upload for you?

[11:00:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
sure

[11:00:02.0000] <Charl>
ok hold on

[11:00:03.0000] <Charl>
my firefox is crashing as usual :)

[11:01:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
using trunk?

[11:01:01.0000] <Charl>
yeah

[11:04:00.0000] <markwubben>
/me (n=mark⊙1dcn) Quit ()

[11:05:00.0000] <bewest>
/me (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) Quit (Connection timed out)

[11:10:00.0000] <j00p>
/me (n=zeno⊙adxn) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[11:10:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me (n=gsnedder⊙hrbc) Quit ()

[11:11:00.0000] <Charl>
zcorpan_: sorry my checked out copy is at work and i need to go home, my mom is shouting already ;)

[11:11:01.0000] <Charl>
i'll look at it first thing tomorrow morning for you

[11:11:02.0000] <Charl>
cheers all

[11:11:03.0000] <Charl>
/me (n=Charl⊙snaz) Quit ()

[11:41:00.0000] <icaaq>
/me (i=icaaaq⊙c2cbs) has left #whatwg

[11:57:00.0000] <othermaciej>
/me (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-23ed88dabce42f39) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))

[12:02:00.0000] <othermaciej>
/me (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-02e803889fbdbe6e) Quit (Nick collision from services.)

[12:12:00.0000] <annevk>
http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-tagmem-minutes.html#item04

[12:13:00.0000] <annevk>
hmm

[12:13:01.0000] <annevk>
don't read that

[12:13:02.0000] <annevk>
it's not interesting

[12:13:03.0000] <sayrer>
sure isn't ;)

[12:14:00.0000] <annevk>
and those are the people making up the web architecture...

[12:14:01.0000] <annevk>
right

[12:14:02.0000] <sayrer>
well, it is politically difficult for them to say things we would like to hear

[12:15:00.0000] <sayrer>
so one can never tell if they get it or not from public records

[12:17:00.0000] <Hixie>
wrt the earlier comment, yes, i spoke to both the youtube people and the google video people

[12:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
i love all the discussions about whether we should allow native ui

[12:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
i've already specced that feature, it's just commented out...

[12:24:02.0000] <annevk>
the discussion is about having it by default

[12:25:00.0000] <annevk>
fwiw

[12:25:01.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie, why is it commented out?

[12:25:02.0000] <annevk>
(well, part of it anyway)

[12:25:03.0000] <annevk>
sayrer, complexity of the intitial impl

[12:25:04.0000] <Hixie>
it's commented out as part of the many simpliciations for v1

[12:25:05.0000] <Hixie>
if we require v1 to have ui, then people will criticise it when the ui sucks

[12:25:06.0000] <sayrer>
I see

[12:25:07.0000] <Hixie>
as, e.g., they have with wf2 and opera's ui

[12:26:00.0000] <Hixie>
and that will give a lot of strength to the argument that we should drop video altogether

[12:26:01.0000] <Hixie>
(not really a valid argument, but that rarely matters in wg discussions, sadly)

[12:26:02.0000] <Hixie>
(i'm talking about it getting removed if this gets to the html wg, btw)

[12:27:00.0000] <sayrer>
I agree with your parenthetical reasoning

[12:27:01.0000] <annevk>
if the UI really needs to be there by default it will be in the end anyway

[12:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'm also a little confused by the "either we use <object> or we have an element per media type!" arguments

[12:28:01.0000] <sayrer>
my only concern is dimensions

[12:28:02.0000] <Hixie>
why can't we use <object> for the uncommon cases and have elements for the important ones...

[12:28:03.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: of?

[12:28:04.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, that's not logical (apparently)

[12:28:05.0000] <sayrer>
of <video> given presence of a native UI

[12:28:06.0000] <Hixie>
/me points to the topic again

[12:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: ah yes

[12:29:01.0000] <annevk>
/me only points out what's being said

[12:29:02.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: yeah that's one of the tough ones

[12:29:03.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: should it be inside the box, outside the box, etc

[12:41:00.0000] <othermaciej>
/me (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-99683985d5cae1cf) Quit (Nick collision from services.)

[12:52:00.0000] <csarven>
/me (n=nevrasc⊙m1mvc) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))

[12:55:00.0000] <Hixie>
no controversial e-mails in the various lists i watch

[12:55:01.0000] <Hixie>
how sad

[12:55:02.0000] <Hixie>
ok bbl

[12:55:03.0000] <annevk>
/me wonders what counts as controversial these days

[12:56:00.0000] <annevk>
<xxx src>

[13:05:00.0000] <ROBOd>
annevk: that's not controversial :)

[13:05:01.0000] <annevk>
<nigger>?

[13:05:02.0000] <ROBOd>
ok, *that* might be

[13:06:00.0000] <ROBOd>
:)

[13:06:01.0000] <annevk>
yeah, might...

[13:06:02.0000] <annevk>
oh well, got to go

[13:06:03.0000] <ROBOd>
depends who's on the mailing list

[13:09:00.0000] <briansuda>
/me (n=briansud⊙brhi) Quit ("off to find food")

[13:09:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
we still get spammers to the forum :(

[13:11:00.0000] <ROBOd>
zcorpan_: phpbb, that's what i call spam

[13:11:01.0000] <ROBOd>
for a forum i host on my server i made some patches, to fight against spammers

[13:12:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
what patches?

[13:12:01.0000] <ROBOd>
first of all, i configured phpbb so that registration requires permission from moderators

[13:12:02.0000] <ROBOd>
but that's not enough...

[13:12:03.0000] <zcorpan_>
how do you do that?

[13:13:00.0000] <ROBOd>
in the administration module

[13:13:01.0000] <ROBOd>
however, that's not enough, because spammers will, anyway, signup, and until you delete their account

[13:13:02.0000] <ROBOd>
their account profile will be public

[13:13:03.0000] <ROBOd>
url, occupation, email and all the values they can fill into the profile

[13:13:04.0000] <ROBOd>
all spam keywords... they are all visible

[13:13:05.0000] <ROBOd>
so, my patches deal with that

[13:14:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
would be great if you could send your patches to hixie

[13:14:01.0000] <ROBOd>
inactive accounts don't show in "The newest registered user is ..."

[13:14:02.0000] <ROBOd>
simple users can't see the profile of inactive accounts

[13:15:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
"Enable account activation: Admin"?

[13:15:01.0000] <ROBOd>
yes

[13:16:00.0000] <ROBOd>
and in the members list, no other value (such as location), except the username, is displayed in the page

[13:16:01.0000] <ROBOd>
for normal users, again

[13:16:02.0000] <ROBOd>
admins see no difference

[13:16:03.0000] <ROBOd>
zcorpan_: shall i send the patches to Hixie?

[13:17:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
yes please

[13:17:01.0000] <ROBOd>
i will also make them public, on my server

[13:17:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
ok

[13:23:00.0000] <BenWard>
/me (n=BenWard⊙cccnc) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[13:26:00.0000] <annevk>
/me (n=annevk⊙5ccn) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[13:31:00.0000] <Hixie>
if we require moderator permissions, we'd better have active moderators :-)

[13:42:00.0000] <Dashiva>
How about just routing registration through IRC?

[13:44:00.0000] <Lachy>
hey kingryan, yt?

[13:47:00.0000] <Lachy>
kingryan, I wanted to know if it would be possible to set up a copy of 'mfbot' that you use of #microformats, but for announcing changes to the whatwg wiki.

[13:53:00.0000] <ROBOd>
Hixie: other changes can't be made quickly, to phpbb

[13:53:01.0000] <ROBOd>
another forum is needed, but any system is susceptible to spam like that

[13:54:00.0000] <ROBOd>
in my case i tried to make it irrelevant for me if the spammer tries to signup

[13:54:01.0000] <ROBOd>
and, on the forum i host, i am not the moderator who deals with the account activations...

[13:56:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
obviously it would be better if spammers didn't get though the registration in the first place

[13:56:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
or even find the registration page

[13:56:02.0000] <Dashiva>
/me repeats IRC suggestion

[13:57:00.0000] <ROBOd>
zcorpan_: correct, change the phpbb system

[13:57:01.0000] <ROBOd>
i also dislike it spammers can signup

[13:58:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
ROBOd: i did a modification, but it wasn't enough

[13:58:01.0000] <ROBOd>
zcorpan_: preparing the patches

[13:59:00.0000] <ROBOd>
zcorpan_: i didn't do any modification to the actual signup process

[13:59:01.0000] <ROBOd>
i didn't want to bother too much :)

[13:59:02.0000] <ROBOd>
what did you change?

[13:59:03.0000] <zcorpan_>
the name of the captcha field

[13:59:04.0000] <Dashiva>
What if you rotated the field names? :)

[14:00:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
that could work

[14:00:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
use name="email" for something else, and the something else for the email

[14:02:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
or use NCRs

[14:02:01.0000] <hasather>
Dashiva: great idea, name="password" for password and name="repeatpassword" for e-mail or something probably confuses the bots

[14:02:02.0000] <hasather>
or what zcorpan_ said

[14:11:00.0000] <ROBOd>
done, will send the patches now to Hixie 

[14:11:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
ROBOd: wait

[14:11:02.0000] <ROBOd>
waiting now

[14:11:03.0000] <zcorpan_>
perhaps swithing name=""s is enough

[14:12:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
if it isn't then you can send it to hixie later

[14:12:01.0000] <ROBOd>
they are very simple patches...

[14:12:02.0000] <ROBOd>
only 3 files, and a few lines

[14:12:03.0000] <sayrer>
/me (n=chatzill⊙ucmc) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[14:12:04.0000] <zcorpan_>
sure, but we don't want admin registration :)

[14:13:00.0000] <ROBOd>
admin confirmation

[14:13:01.0000] <ROBOd>
ok then ... i will publish the patches on my site, anyway :)

[14:13:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
sure, thanks anyway :)

[14:14:00.0000] <ROBOd>
no problem

[14:17:00.0000] <Dashiva>
If it's going to be phpBB demand a strike-through mod

[14:19:00.0000] <ROBOd>
a moderator will still be needed for the forums

[14:19:01.0000] <ROBOd>
to clean inappropriate messages of users with no logic in their brains :)

[14:20:00.0000] <icaaq>
/me (i=icaaaq⊙c2cbs) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[14:20:01.0000] <ROBOd>
(e.g. obscene messages, or otherwise vulgar messages)

[14:33:00.0000] <kingryan>
Lachy: hi, I'm here now

[14:34:00.0000] <kingryan>
mfbot is actually just a shell script tying together a few pieces that are built into mediawiki

[14:35:00.0000] <kingryan>
Lachy: here's mfbot in its entirety:

[14:35:01.0000] <kingryan>
#!/bin/sh

[14:35:02.0000] <kingryan>
cd /var/www/wiki/irc

[14:35:03.0000] <kingryan>
php rcdumper.php -m \#microformats | ./mxircecho.py mfbot irc.freenode.net

[14:39:00.0000] <ROBOd>
done, now i uploaded the patches on my site

[14:39:01.0000] <ROBOd>
http://www.robodesign.ro/mihai/blog/phpbb-2-fighting-spam

[14:39:02.0000] <ROBOd>
if they are needed, they are now public

[14:41:00.0000] <Lachy>
kingryan, thanks. How and where would I need to install it and set it up?

[14:42:00.0000] <ROBOd>
gotta go now

[14:42:01.0000] <ROBOd>
good night everyone

[14:42:02.0000] <ROBOd>
/me (n=robod⊙8321) Quit ("http://www.robodesign.ro")

[14:42:03.0000] <kingryan>
Lachy: for us it's installed on the same web host as the wiki (it hits the db directly)

[14:43:00.0000] <Lachy>
I can install it on that host

[14:43:01.0000] <krijnh|afk>
/me (n=krijnhoe⊙kxn) Quit (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)

[14:43:02.0000] <karlUshi>
/me (n=karl⊙1rhnj) Quit (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)

[14:43:03.0000] <Dashiva>
/me (i=Dashiva⊙vsnn) Quit (sterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)

[14:44:00.0000] <kingryan>
Lachy: we're also using an older version of mediawiki, so YMMV

[14:45:00.0000] <Lachy>
I gotta get ready for work, could you write and send me some step-by-step instructions for installing it?

[14:46:00.0000] <kingryan>
there aren't really any steps, just run that shell script

[14:46:01.0000] <kingryan>
though you may need to change some of the details

[14:46:02.0000] <Lachy>
where do the files rcdumber.php and mxircecho.py come from?

[14:47:00.0000] <Lachy>
s/rcdumber/rcdumper/

[14:47:01.0000] <kingryan>
from mediawiki

[14:47:02.0000] <kingryan>
at least they were in our version of it

[14:47:03.0000] <Lachy>
ok, I'll give it a try after work today

[14:50:00.0000] <Lachy>
we don't seem to have those files, but they're probably available somewhere online

[14:52:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Very newest MW version, nice

[14:52:01.0000] <Lachy>
oh, I just remembered dreamhost apparently doesn't allow IRC, I probably wouldn't be allowed to set it up anyway :-(

[15:06:00.0000] <icaaq>
/me (i=icaaaq⊙c2cbs) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))

[15:06:01.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan_: done (what does it do?)

[15:07:00.0000] <Hixie>
gotta love some of the mails to whatwg

[15:07:01.0000] <Hixie>
"i'm not an expert in any of the relevant topics, but here's my opinion anyway"

[15:07:02.0000] <Hixie>
especially amusing given that people who _are_ experts have already given their opinion.

[15:07:03.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: it changes the captcha's name to "email" and the email's name to "sneaky" (NRC escaped to confuse bots even more)

[15:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
ah so it has to be a real human who posts basically

[15:08:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: well, it's good they say they're not experts so i don't have to read it ;)

[15:09:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: hopefully, yes

[15:09:01.0000] <Hixie>
let me know how that goes

[15:09:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
sure

[15:11:00.0000] <csarven>
/me (n=nevrasc⊙m1mvc) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))

[15:12:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I've been wondering, is Chris Wilson joining the html wg "enough"?

[15:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
enough for what?

[15:13:01.0000] <Dashiva>
To get meaningful participation from microsoft

[15:13:02.0000] <Hixie>
what would you consider meaningful?

[15:14:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Resulting changes in the browser

[15:16:00.0000] <BenWard>
/me (n=BenWard⊙cccnc) Quit ()

[15:16:01.0000] <Hixie>
i don't think that's up to anyone but management at microsoft

[15:17:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Dashiva: probably a more effective way to get changes in the browser is to submit bug reports

[15:27:00.0000] <icaaq_>
/me (i=icaaaq⊙c2cbs) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[15:51:00.0000] <othermaciej>
/me (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-55e1df219b966991) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[15:55:00.0000] <othermaciej_>
Dashiva: I think more people from MS than him will join

[15:55:01.0000] <othermaciej_>
Dashiva: and I also think that while IE implementing the spec would be better, we can't consider it a showstopper for progress

[15:57:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Oh, I wasn't really thinking like that. More if him joining was a sign of intended action, or more of a personal thing on his behalf

[15:58:00.0000] <Hixie>
probably a mixture -- after all, his personal beliefs presumably have a big impact on IE

[16:01:00.0000] <othermaciej>
he is the IE Platform Architect, so one would assume his opinions carry some weight there

[16:06:00.0000] <karlUshi>
/me (n=karl⊙1rhnj) Quit ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?")

[16:11:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me wonders how the people who support MPEG4 plan on letting Firefox and other free browsers pay for the MPEG4 license fees

[16:13:00.0000] <othermaciej>
it's not a per-unit royalty

[16:13:01.0000] <Hixie>
what is it "per" then?

[16:13:02.0000] <othermaciej>
MPEG-LA (I think) licenses based on approximate size of mpeg-related business you are doing

[16:13:03.0000] <othermaciej>
so MoCo/MoFo would presumably owe some fixed amount

[16:13:04.0000] <Hixie>
so how would that work for, say, linux distros?

[16:14:00.0000] <othermaciej>
otoh such code could not be under MPL/LGPL/GPL triple license, would need to be something else

[16:14:01.0000] <Hixie>
that's rather a blocker

[16:14:02.0000] <othermaciej>
well, it's fine to link a seperate library licensed under, say, BSD license, to an MPL/LGPL/GPL library

[16:14:03.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't know the details

[16:15:00.0000] <othermaciej>
and I don't mean to advocate adding an MPEG4 requirement

[16:15:01.0000] <Hixie>
sure

[16:15:02.0000] <Hixie>
/me doesn't really care about the codec himself, it's just that he has to take into account the needs of people who are distributing software without any financial backing

[16:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
which rather puts any fees of any kind out of the window

[16:16:01.0000] <markwubben>
/me (n=mark⊙1dcn) Quit ()

[16:17:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't know the details of when the fees apply, but it might not preclude that as long as licenses the patent

[16:19:00.0000] <Hixie>
as long as who licenses the patent?

[16:19:01.0000] <othermaciej>
er, sorry

[16:19:02.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't know if I want to make claims about this b/c I have not studied the terms

[16:20:00.0000] <othermaciej>
but I think for example that it is possible to bundle the QuickTime plugin without paying the patent license because Apple has paid for it

[16:20:01.0000] <othermaciej>
so analogous condition could apply for other vendors

[16:20:02.0000] <othermaciej>
but like I said, don't take my word for it

[16:20:03.0000] <othermaciej>
just don't assume it is unworkable either

[16:20:04.0000] <Hixie>
seems to me that if it was that simple, someone would have paid the license fee already and linux distros would be happily shipping the codec

[16:22:00.0000] <tantek>
or it could just be transactional friction

[16:22:01.0000] <tantek>
which prevent many things "that if it was that simple" from ever happening.

[16:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
what do you mean by transactional friction?

[16:26:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me begins replying to the 206 <video> element e-mails

[16:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
50 people sent messages to this thread

[16:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
that's an average of 4 mails per person

[16:31:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
/me has sent one email on <video>

[16:32:00.0000] <Hixie>
that's great though, means that we have at least 10% active participants on the whatwg list

[16:32:01.0000] <Hixie>
that's high

[16:33:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
i know some who are subscribed but i haven't seen any mails from them to the list

[16:33:01.0000] <Hixie>
oh there are hundreds of lurkers, sure

[16:33:02.0000] <Hixie>
that's pretty normal

[16:33:03.0000] <zcorpan_>
yup

[16:34:00.0000] <othermaciej>
/me (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-9c192c7c979df1e1) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))

[16:35:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
i've seen it being suggested that in forums, 1% post new threads, 10% reply to them, and the rest are lurkers

[16:36:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
i guess the same figures could be applied to wg mailing lists

[16:43:00.0000] <Dashiva>
whatwg is less scary to post to than public-html, at least :)

[16:44:00.0000] <tantek>
Hixie, it means that nothing is as easy as simply "doing the work", that there is communication involved, that there are other things that are higher priority (opportunity costs) etc. all kinds of often dismissed costs of doing anything, however simple.

[16:44:01.0000] <Hixie>
tantek: seems like the cost of not being able to play back any modern video content would offset that

[16:45:00.0000] <tantek>
no because that is an unrealized gain, rather than a cost

[16:45:01.0000] <tantek>
the two are different

[16:45:02.0000] <Dashiva>
mplayer probably eats up most of the gain from video content

[16:45:03.0000] <Hixie>
fair enough

[16:45:04.0000] <tantek>
people dismiss unrealized gains ALL the time without even knowing it

[16:46:00.0000] <tantek>
in fact, you and I are probably dimissing many unrealized gains right now, if we had time to actually think about them

[16:46:01.0000] <Hixie>
wow, there's a majority in favour of the htmlwg having a f2f meeting

[16:46:02.0000] <Hixie>
tantek: yeah

[16:46:03.0000] <othermaciej_>
a lot of modern video is Flash or Windows Media, those patents might not be freely licensable

[16:46:04.0000] <Hixie>
i wonder if the majority is because only people who actually want to go to a f2f bothered to reply

[16:47:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej_: true

[16:47:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Hixie: How many votes?

[16:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
13 yes, 8 no. http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/ftf07/results

[16:48:01.0000] <Hixie>
if you're an html wg member, fill the survey in: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/ftf07/

[16:49:00.0000] <Dashiva>
"Hey Surveyman, don't forget to fill out those surveys"

[16:49:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Those ads always amused me

[16:50:00.0000] <Hixie>
of the people here, hasather, hendry, jgraham, hsivonen, citoyen, othermaciej, and probably others whom i haven't spotted in the list haven't filled in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/ftf07/

[16:50:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I will fill it in

[16:51:00.0000] <othermaciej>
but I have to ask my corporate masters if I can offer to host on Apple's behalf

[16:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
you want to host a meeting with over a 100 people?

[16:51:02.0000] <Hixie>
/me is very skeptical that such a meeting is even sensible

[16:51:03.0000] <othermaciej>
I doubt 100 will actually show up

[16:52:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I imagine the ratio of people showing up to nominal WG members will be similar to the ratio of people posting on the list to nominal list members

[16:52:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Most of the new members coming via the whatwg invitation call are probably on private funding, so less likely to travel

[16:53:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
/me has now filled in the survey

[16:54:00.0000] <Dashiva>
/me is trying to phrase the comments

[16:54:01.0000] <hasather>
filled it in too

[16:54:02.0000] <Hixie>
uh. the numbers just changed more towards the no.

[16:54:03.0000] <Hixie>
i wonder who changed their minds.

[16:56:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh maybe i was looking at the wrong results, nm.

[16:57:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Need to get a job, become rich and wealthy...

[16:58:00.0000] <hasather>
Dashiva: working at Opera this year?

[16:58:01.0000] <Dashiva>
If they'll have me, that's the plan

[16:59:00.0000] <Dashiva>
You?

[16:59:01.0000] <hasather>
hopefully

[16:59:02.0000] <Dashiva>
"Skal vi kjäka?"


2007-03-20
[17:00:00.0000] <hasather>
oh, don't get me started on funny norwegian words

[17:00:01.0000] <Hixie>
that wasn't norwegian

[17:00:02.0000] <Hixie>
norwegian doesn't have umlauts.

[17:01:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I was making fun of a swedish phrase he used every day

[17:01:01.0000] <Hixie>
:-)

[17:01:02.0000] <hasather>
although with some weird norwegian-swedish-bastardaztion spelling

[17:01:03.0000] <Dashiva>
How do you spell it?

[17:02:00.0000] <hasather>
Ska vi käka? :)

[17:02:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
nu blev jag hungrig :|

[17:03:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Maybe we should use Japanese this summer, to avoid confusion

[17:03:01.0000] <hasather>
(btw, my spelling of "bastardization" wasn't really good up there either)

[17:09:00.0000] <Hixie>
hey, whatwg membership just hit a round 700

[17:09:01.0000] <Lachy_>
I thought we already had over 700

[17:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
it's been hovering around 69x for a while

[17:10:01.0000] <Lachy_>
ok

[17:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh crap, i know why there's so much <video> feedback on my pile

[17:12:01.0000] <Hixie>
i forgot to delete the mails from the first one i sent out!

[17:12:02.0000] <Hixie>
123 mails, that's more like it

[17:18:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
heh

[17:43:00.0000] <hsivonen>
back in Finland

[17:43:01.0000] <hsivonen>
I've made it to the HTML WG while I was away :-)

[17:53:00.0000] <tantek>
/me (n=tantek⊙dsdsn) Quit ()

[17:54:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
karlUshi: btw, is there anything that needs to be done with the html wg home page? i could perhaps help with that

[18:03:00.0000] <karlUshi>
zcorpan_: in which ways? For now, The page is mostly in the hands of Dan Connolly.

[18:05:00.0000] <Lachy_>
karlUshi: something could be done to improve the design. I've seen a couple of complaints about the green on white

[18:12:00.0000] <karlUshi>
:) The green Yes the light green is too light, I will fix that. 

[18:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
what would be cool is if the htmlwg blog was open like the whatwg one

[18:13:01.0000] <karlUshi>
For design, Groups are really not the best place to do things :)

[18:13:02.0000] <hober>
/me (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("ERC Version 5.1.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")

[18:13:03.0000] <karlUshi>
Hixie: that is call the Web :) no?

[18:14:00.0000] <Hixie>
how do you mean?

[18:14:01.0000] <karlUshi>
anyone can publish something anywhere

[18:14:02.0000] <Hixie>
well yeah but that's not the same thing as letting them publish on the group's own blog

[18:14:03.0000] <karlUshi>
why?

[18:15:00.0000] <Hixie>
well because people aren't typically subscribed to a random joe's blog, but they probably are subscribed to the htmlwg's blog

[18:15:01.0000] <Hixie>
so you get more exposure

[18:15:02.0000] <Hixie>
it also allows people in the community to get up on a soapbox every now and then and tell the world about something

[18:15:03.0000] <karlUshi>
"ego wins"--

[18:16:00.0000] <karlUshi>
It is not yet decided that it is a blog. 

[18:16:01.0000] <Hixie>
e.g. about html5lib 0.9, or the character encoding issue, etc

[18:20:00.0000] <karlUshi>
/me just noticed that the green in the sidebar was a bug from me

[18:21:00.0000] <karlUshi>
green issue fixed

[18:24:00.0000] <karlUshi>
zcorpan_: any suggestions on design is welcome by private emails. Group discussions about design is sure to be a never ending story.

[18:24:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
ok

[18:25:00.0000] <Lachy_>
karlUshi: if the HTMLWG page does become a blog, then I agree that it should be a community blog. It's worked out reasonably well for us so far

[18:26:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
it was pointed out in here before that the page shrinks when text size in increased. that could be solved by instead of using ems for the page margins, use "auto" and possibly a max-width in ems

[18:26:01.0000] <Lachy_>
or at the very least, it should be open to all WG participants

[18:26:02.0000] <karlUshi>
Lachy: I would prefer an aggregation of content, a king of planet with a tag. That would be more logical

[18:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
hm

[18:27:01.0000] <karlUshi>
s/king/kind/

[18:27:02.0000] <Hixie>
should video position be in seconds with a float, or in milliseconds with an integer?

[18:27:03.0000] <karlUshi>
and with a nofollow

[18:27:04.0000] <karlUshi>
for meta

[18:27:05.0000] <Lachy_>
karlUshi: no nofollow

[18:27:06.0000] <Hixie>
(flash does seconds/float)

[18:28:00.0000] <karlUshi>
"Ego wins"--

[18:28:01.0000] <hasather>
Hixie: I vire for milliseconds, but don't ask me why

[18:28:02.0000] <hasather>
s/svire/vote/

[18:28:03.0000] <zcorpan_>
+1 for milliseconds

[18:28:04.0000] <Hixie>
i prefer milliseconds too, purely to avoid floats

[18:28:05.0000] <Hixie>
but

[18:28:06.0000] <Hixie>
flash uses floats and seconds

[18:28:07.0000] <Hixie>
tough call

[18:29:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
does it matter?

[18:29:01.0000] <Hixie>
well we don't want to be different for no good reason

[18:29:02.0000] <tantek>
of course existing efforts are documented on the wiki right? ;)

[18:29:03.0000] <tantek>
so that you can use examples to argue for one or the other

[18:29:04.0000] <zcorpan_>
fair enough

[18:30:00.0000] <Lachy_>
hmm. not sure. If it were a int, then it would be restricted to 2"32 seconds. Is that sufficient for long videos?

[18:30:01.0000] <Lachy_>
2^23

[18:30:02.0000] <Lachy_>
aargh!

[18:30:03.0000] <Lachy_>
I mean 2^32

[18:31:00.0000] <Dashiva>
2^32 milliseconds = about 1200 hours, by my shoddy calculation

[18:31:01.0000] <Hixie>
tantek: unfortunately i don't have the time to write the e-mail responses to these 123 e-mails, and document the wiki, and write a high quality spec. i only have time for two of those three.

[18:31:02.0000] <Hixie>
it all ends up documented in the archives, though, since i reply to every e-mail

[18:32:00.0000] <Lachy_>
yeah, I got about 1,193

[18:32:01.0000] <Lachy_>
so that should be fine

[18:32:02.0000] <Hixie>
Dashiva, Lachy: yeah there's no problem of one being too short or whatever

[18:32:03.0000] <zcorpan_>
also, you would probably never need finer precision than milliseconds

[18:33:00.0000] <Lachy_>
I prefer milliseconds then because floats are a pain

[18:33:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[18:34:00.0000] <tantek>
Hixie, document the wiki, such that it contains sufficient content in response to the emails, send *one* email response to the list, bccing the 123 senders that says their input has been incorporated, and write a high quality spec.

[18:34:01.0000] <Dashiva>
I prefer integers, but I also prefer seconds. Having to divide by 1000 all the time is an annoyance

[18:35:00.0000] <tantek>
and instruct folks in the email to follow-up with specifics on the wiki

[18:35:01.0000] <Hixie>
tantek: in my experience when spec writers don't reply to each e-mail individually, they tend to start ignoring feedback.

[18:35:02.0000] <Hixie>
unintentionally, of course

[18:35:03.0000] <Hixie>
but they start saying things like "oh that's covered on the wiki" or "that's like that other e-mail" and they start missing subtle arguments.

[18:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
however, the whatwg wiki is open, so if you want to volunteer to take the e-mails and put them in the wiki, you are welcome to do so

[18:36:01.0000] <Hixie>
(the other problem is that wiki feedback doesn't function well with my way of working, which is based on a LIFO stack of e-mails)

[18:36:02.0000] <tantek>
Hixie, FYI: http://tantek.pbwiki.com/CommunicationProtocols re: wiki vs. email

[18:37:00.0000] <tantek>
i receive too much email to do LIFO and get to "what matters"

[18:37:01.0000] <Hixie>
well, replying to e-mail is basically my fulltime job

[18:37:02.0000] <Hixie>
so i can keep up

[18:39:00.0000] <tantek>
that doesn't sound like a very satisfying job :(

[18:39:01.0000] <Hixie>
to each his own :-)

[18:39:02.0000] <karlUshi>
:)

[18:40:00.0000] <Lachy_>
I wish I were paid read and respond to e-mail, it might allow me to keep up with it all ;-)

[18:41:00.0000] <karlUshi>
Lachy: I sent you the link already :p

[18:41:01.0000] <Lachy_>
karlUshi: do you mean that job at the W3C in Japan?

[18:41:02.0000] <karlUshi>
but do not think it is more satisfying to be paid to read and reply to them ;) 

[18:41:03.0000] <karlUshi>
Lachy: yes

[18:45:00.0000] <jmhodges>
/me (n=jmh⊙cwrrc) Quit ("Ex-Chat")

[18:48:00.0000] <tantek>
BTW Hixie, did you mean FIFO?

[18:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
my e-mail is actually LIFO, though i guess i deal with feedback in a random access monner

[18:49:01.0000] <Hixie>
manner

[18:50:00.0000] <Hixie>
whatwg feedback ends up in buckets that i then deal with en masse

[18:50:01.0000] <Hixie>
(LIFO means i avoid the "reply to an e-mail that's already been replied to" thing)

[18:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan_: are you still in favour of an autoplay attribute? or do you think that can wait til v2?

[18:51:01.0000] <Dashiva>
autoplay would allow (very minimal) non-script use even without script

[18:52:00.0000] <Dashiva>
*without native UI

[18:52:01.0000] <tantek>
/me is a little bit amazed that requests for a <video> element are being taken seriously.

[18:54:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: it could wait til v2 i guess

[18:54:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
v1 would mostly have to be scripted to be useful anyway

[18:55:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
having only one declarative feature seems weird also ;)

[18:55:01.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan_: yeah that was my conclusion too

[18:55:02.0000] <Lachy_>
Hixie, do you expect v2 to be published in this same spec, or is it something that will be published in HTML6?

[18:55:03.0000] <Hixie>
dunno

[18:55:04.0000] <Hixie>
canvas is already at "v2"

[18:56:00.0000] <Lachy_>
ok, so it just depends upon how fast implementations come

[18:56:01.0000] <Hixie>
pretty much

[18:56:02.0000] <kingryan>
tantek: yeah, we shouldn't go video, and get rid of img at the same time

[18:56:03.0000] <zcorpan_>
and if there's demand from authors, although judging from the list activity there already is demand :)

[18:56:04.0000] <kingryan>
s/go/do/

[18:57:00.0000] <Lachy_>
I wonder if <video> could make it into Firefox 4 (it's probably too late for FF3)

[18:57:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
i wonder when wf2 features appear in firefox

[18:58:00.0000] <Lachy_>
hopefully FF4 too

[18:58:01.0000] <Lachy_>
I doubt IE8 will support it, I exect that they will just be focussing on DOM and CSS improvements before adding support for new HTML features

[18:59:00.0000] <tantek>
as they should, right?

[18:59:01.0000] <Hixie>
we can hope

[19:00:00.0000] <kingryan>
ok, that was supposed to be sarcastic :D

[19:00:01.0000] <Hixie>
hah

[19:00:02.0000] <Hixie>
i have considered suggesting dropping <object>, based on the disaster that it is

[19:00:03.0000] <Hixie>
but i don't think that would fly far

[19:01:00.0000] <kingryan>
it either needs to be dropped or better speced

[19:01:01.0000] <Hixie>
well it is "better specced" already in html5

[19:01:02.0000] <kingryan>
and preferably the "better spec" would be based on actual experience of implementations that got it right

[19:01:03.0000] <Hixie>
though it might still need to be yet better

[19:01:04.0000] <tantek>
shouldn't be any harder than tables. *ducks*

[19:01:05.0000] <kingryan>
that's true

[19:01:06.0000] <kingryan>
/me throws a table at tantek

[19:03:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: dropping as in disallow it in html5 documents or don't spec it at all?

[19:03:01.0000] <Hixie>
as in disallow

[19:04:00.0000] <Hixie>
we're gonna have to spec everything browsers support in due course

[19:04:01.0000] <Hixie>
if we want it interoperable

[19:04:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
ok

[19:05:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
<embed> doesn't allow fallback, so whenever i use flash and want fallback i use <object> (with a <param> hack to make it work in ie), which works fairly well

[19:05:01.0000] <Lachy_>
Object is still useful for flash

[19:06:00.0000] <Lachy_>
if the spec can make it interoperable, I see no reason why it should be dropped

[19:07:00.0000] <Hixie>
well, like i said, i don't think the suggestion would fly

[19:07:01.0000] <Hixie>
one can dream, though

[19:07:02.0000] <karlUshi>
Lachy: and given the fact that object support is not that bad.

[19:07:03.0000] <Lachy_>
it's not that good either

[19:07:04.0000] <Dashiva>
Object support is good, all five kinds of it :)

[19:07:05.0000] <karlUshi>
I have to add the testing results from Dashiva this morning

[19:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
<object> has gotted better since i added <object> to acid2 :-)

[19:08:01.0000] <Hixie>
gotten

[19:08:02.0000] <Hixie>
even

[19:08:03.0000] <Hixie>
but it's true that <object> support is still poor overall

[19:08:04.0000] <Hixie>
not surprising, though, it's overloaded to hell and back

[19:08:05.0000] <Hixie>
it's just a generally badly designed and poorly specified idea

[19:08:06.0000] <Hixie>
in html4

[19:09:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
it was added to html4 after it was implemented in ie as an active x "object", wasn't it?

[19:09:01.0000] <Hixie>
i don't know the history

[19:09:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
think i've read that somewhere

[19:09:03.0000] <Hixie>
if it was added to IE for ActiveX, though, then the HTML4 spec is even worse than i thought.

[19:09:04.0000] <tantek>
/me (n=tantek⊙adspn) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))

[19:10:00.0000] <Lachy_>
that would explain why the spec has the useless IE only classid attr

[19:10:01.0000] <karlUshi>
history is here - http://www.webstandards.org/learn/articles/askw3c/jun2004/

[19:13:00.0000] <hasather>
/me (n=hasather⊙8ttc) has left #whatwg

[19:16:00.0000] <Lachy_>
karlUshi: do you know if any screen reader vendors, like JAWS and Windows Eyes, are planning to join the HTML WG?

[19:16:01.0000] <Hixie>
is Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis here?

[19:17:00.0000] <karlUshi>
Lachy: I do not know, but you are welcome to sen email to the appropriate persons

[19:17:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Apple is a screen reader vendor

[19:18:00.0000] <Lachy_>
I have no idea who to send it to. I thought perhaps you could send one on behalf of the w3c?

[19:18:01.0000] <Lachy_>
othermaciej: I didn't know that

[19:18:02.0000] <Hixie>
you need a mac :-)

[19:18:03.0000] <Lachy_>
I have a mac at home

[19:18:04.0000] <Hixie>
oh

[19:18:05.0000] <Hixie>
well then

[19:18:06.0000] <Hixie>
you own the screen reader in question

[19:18:07.0000] <Hixie>
it's reasonably good

[19:18:08.0000] <Lachy_>
how do I operate it?

[19:18:09.0000] <Hixie>
doesn't support aural CSS though

[19:19:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Lachy_: you can turn it on via the Control Panel I think

[19:19:01.0000] <othermaciej>
it's called VoiceOver

[19:19:02.0000] <Hixie>
spotlight for "Screen reader"

[19:19:03.0000] <Lachy_>
ok, I'll look for it tonight

[19:19:04.0000] <karlUshi>
Lachy: http://www.apple.com/accessibility/voiceover/

[19:19:05.0000] <othermaciej>
most go out to dinner

[19:19:06.0000] <Hixie>
or press command-f5

[19:21:00.0000] <Lachy_>
it's lunch time, cya

[19:24:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
"The <object> element was originally introduced by Microsoft in Internet Explorer 3 for the inclusion of Microsoft Component Object Model or COM objects (such as ActiveX Controls and a wide variety of different media types and plug-ins). Internet Explorer introduced this tag with support for ActiveX controls, and Microsoft has continued to develop around it." -- http://www.devasp.com/samplechapters/html401/chapter10.asp

[19:24:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
that's not where i read it before, but it says basically the same thing

[19:24:02.0000] <Hixie>
man a lot of people on the video thread don't seem to understand the concept of not going to extremes

[19:25:00.0000] <hendry>
herding cats :)

[19:26:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I wonder if the ones suggesting browsers "fix" <object> handling even thought about backwards compatability

[19:28:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
just doing what html4 says doesn't work, as it's not compatible with ie or the web aiui, and it's underspecified

[19:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
what about html5 though?

[19:30:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
i haven't looked at <object> in html5 closely

[19:32:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
btw, since <video> basically has the same fallback as <object>, it should probably be part of the "figure fallback object" concept for what a <figure> represents in different fallback situations

[19:33:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
consider <figure><video><object><video><p>foo, or vice versa

[19:35:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
or, perhaps that's just for the content model of <object>

[19:37:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
but it applies anyway

[19:37:01.0000] <othermaciej>
/me (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-f9f4f9f128aaffb0) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[19:38:00.0000] <kingryan>
/me (n=kingryan⊙dsdsn) Quit ()

[19:38:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
or not. <video> is transparent

[19:39:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
nm the above :)

[19:42:00.0000] <karlUshi>
http://esw.w3.org/topic/ObjectTestResults

[19:42:01.0000] <karlUshi>
I have updated the table.

[19:42:02.0000] <karlUshi>
Many Thanks Dashiva!!!

[19:45:00.0000] <Dashiva>
karlUshi: Looking at the report mails, the result in test 7 is the same in IE6 and IE7. Just tester disagreement whether it was Fail or Bug

[19:46:00.0000] <BenWard>
/me (n=BenWard⊙cccnc) Quit ()

[19:47:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Probably the same for Opera 9.0 and 9.1 on test 5

[19:47:01.0000] <karlUshi>
It's why I keep the mail reference. 

[19:47:02.0000] <karlUshi>
it is one of the issue with testing.

[19:47:03.0000] <hendry>
/me (n=hendry⊙9851) Quit ("nn")

[19:48:00.0000] <karlUshi>
There is the bias of the tester.

[19:48:01.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan_: i haven't really looked at fallback closely yet

[19:50:00.0000] <Lachy_>
well, that was a potentially profitable lunch ;-) It pays to be in the right place at the right time!

[19:50:01.0000] <Hixie>
you convinced microsoft to implement ogg theora in an IE7 update patch? :-)

[19:51:00.0000] <Lachy_>
they're shooting a British Airways commercial down at circular quay, and if I get seen in the final cut, I get a $1000 :-D

[19:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
hah

[19:51:02.0000] <Hixie>
nice

[19:52:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
wow

[19:52:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
cool

[20:09:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Only 116 replies to questionnaire to go

[20:11:00.0000] <mpt>
/me (n=mpt⊙1dtn) Quit ("Leaving")

[20:18:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
/me updated http://simon.html5.org/articles/mobile-results

[20:20:00.0000] <Lachy_>
zcorpan_: what did you change on that page?

[20:24:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Lachy: changes are annotated with <del> and <ins>

[20:24:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
except in the table

[20:24:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
added (False) and changed class name to "fail"

[20:29:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
and summary="" updated to match

[20:30:00.0000] <Lachy_>
you don't have Nokia WebKit browser results

[20:30:01.0000] <Lachy_>
I test one for you

[20:31:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
i've got results for it, after the article was published

[20:31:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
filed a bug on it too

[20:32:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9677

[20:34:00.0000] <Lachy_>
how come it's not listed in the result table?

[20:34:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
because i decided not to add more results to the table

[20:35:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
perhaps i should

[20:47:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
added

[20:51:00.0000] <h3h>
/me (n=w3rd⊙csrrc) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))

[21:15:00.0000] <othermaciej_>
/me (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-13fa27c4ed786c41) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))

[21:37:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
http://diveintomark.org/ has switched to html5

[21:43:00.0000] <othermaciej>
wow, he's working at Google too

[21:44:00.0000] <sayrer>
hmm, I find it hard to believe it won't affect the blogging, as he claims in the comments

[21:44:01.0000] <sayrer>
most people vanish into the black hole

[21:45:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I'm sure he has arrangements

[21:54:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
nn

[21:55:00.0000] <Hixie>
my own vanishing into a black hole has little to do with google and more to do with my much more active social life :)

[21:56:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
/me (n=zcorpan⊙8sts) has left #whatwg

[22:16:00.0000] <htmlr>
/me (n=cjb⊙Cnbna) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[22:25:00.0000] <karlUshi>
hmmm Apollo (Adobe) is using WebKit

[22:26:00.0000] <karlUshi>
http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Apollo:developerfaq#What_HTML_and_JavaScript_Engine_is_used_within_Apollo.3F

[22:27:00.0000] <othermaciej>
so I've heard

[22:27:01.0000] <sayrer>
huh, I guess that makes three JS engines shipping in Apollo

[22:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[22:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
what's the first?

[22:28:02.0000] <othermaciej>
Tamarin, JavaScriptCore, SpiderMonkey

[22:28:03.0000] <sayrer>
no, the flash player has two I thought

[22:28:04.0000] <othermaciej>
I hope Adobe chooses to abide by the terms of the LGPL soon

[22:28:05.0000] <othermaciej>
those are the three though

[22:28:06.0000] <othermaciej>
Tamarin for Flash, SpiderMonkey for PDF, and JavaScriptCore for HTML

[22:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
ood times

[22:29:01.0000] <Hixie>
good times even

[22:29:02.0000] <sayrer>
Flash has their old one too, I thought

[22:29:03.0000] <Hixie>
apollo is so doomed

[22:29:04.0000] <sayrer>
Tamarin is only AS3

[22:29:05.0000] <othermaciej>
(if you are thinking "WTF?? PDF executing JavaScript?" then you are not alone

[22:29:06.0000] <othermaciej>
well then they might have 4

[22:29:07.0000] <sayrer>
they have been embedding spidermonkey for a long long time

[22:30:00.0000] <sayrer>
acrobat has lots of forms features

[22:30:01.0000] <karlUshi>
the new version of PDF is Mars

[22:30:02.0000] <karlUshi>
http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Mars:FAQ

[22:31:00.0000] <bzed>
/me (n=bzed⊙dpan) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))

[22:31:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Apollo is their answer to the question of whether they want to replace the web with Flash, replace it with PDF, or embrace the web

[22:31:02.0000] <othermaciej>
apparently the answer is "all three!"

[22:31:03.0000] <Hixie>
hah

[22:31:04.0000] <karlUshi>
Mars includes some parts of SVG

[22:31:05.0000] <sayrer>
well, not such a dumb answer, looking at the Web

[22:31:06.0000] <Hixie>
the problem with appolo, and the reason it's doomed, is that they're going to charge for development

[22:32:00.0000] <othermaciej>
wait, is Mars SVG or not?

[22:32:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I can't tell from that FAQ

[22:32:02.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie: that seems kinda dumb

[22:32:03.0000] <Hixie>
it's their business model

[22:32:04.0000] <karlUshi>
http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Mars:FAQ#How_are_high-end_print_features_supported_in_SVG.3F

[22:32:05.0000] <Hixie>
fine by me though

[22:32:06.0000] <sayrer>
though it worked for Flash

[22:32:07.0000] <othermaciej>
anyway I would like them to stop violating the LGPL, I hope the polite requests will be sufficient to work

[22:32:08.0000] <karlUshi>
"Where SVG does not have sufficient function to support capabilities in PDF, private namespace extensions have been added. Over time, it is hoped that these features will be incorporated into the SVG standard."

[22:33:00.0000] <sayrer>
othermaciej: has khtml always been lgpl?

[22:33:01.0000] <othermaciej>
sayrer: yes

[22:33:02.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: not really. flash is only widely used where there is no alternative.

[22:34:00.0000] <karlUshi>
they also seem to have another forms format

[22:34:01.0000] <karlUshi>
http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Mars:FAQ#What_is_the_transition_or_compatibility_between_a_mars_pdf_and_an_xfa_pdf.3F

[22:34:02.0000] <karlUshi>
"XFA (dynamic) forms provide advanced capabilities around forms and processing XML forms data. As XFA is part of PDF, it is a corresponding part of Mars. Much like Mars does for other PDF features, Mars make access to XFA components of a PDF easier."

[22:34:03.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie: I surf daily on AMD64 linux. flash is the only problem for me. so it seems to meet the bar for ubiquity if people like me are left out in the cold.

[22:35:00.0000] <karlUshi>
http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/xml/index_arch.html

[22:35:01.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: i'm not saying flash is not used, i'm saying it's not used much when html would do the job instead.

[22:35:02.0000] <karlUshi>
Adobe XML Forms Architecture (XFA)

[22:35:03.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: you don't see wikis in flash e.g.

[22:35:04.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie: I think that is incorrect

[22:35:05.0000] <Hixie>
really?

[22:35:06.0000] <Hixie>
examples?

[22:36:00.0000] <othermaciej>
hey, we should drop both XForms Transitional and Web Forms 2 in favor of XFA

[22:36:01.0000] <sayrer>
real estate in NYC, the MIT hotel for my next business trip, boostmobile.com are yesterday's encounters 

[22:36:02.0000] <karlUshi>
/me wonders what would give a features table of all forms languages side by side

[22:37:00.0000] <sayrer>
http://www.hotelatmit.com/

[22:37:01.0000] <sayrer>
http://boostmobile.com

[22:37:02.0000] <sayrer>
I don't remember the broker sites

[22:37:03.0000] <karlUshi>
http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/XForms_Converter

[22:37:04.0000] <sayrer>
half of them don't work

[22:38:00.0000] <karlUshi>
http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/XForms_Converter#Conversion_Details XForms <-> XFA

[22:38:01.0000] <sayrer>
my conjecture is that "high value" sites are likely to require flash

[22:38:02.0000] <sayrer>
just as they are likely to have a higher percentage of Safari, Opera, and Firefox users

[22:40:00.0000] <sayrer>
my research on prepaid cellular plans shows that Boost is seen as "premium" compared to Tracfone and Virgin

[22:40:01.0000] <sayrer>
neither of which featured flash

[22:41:00.0000] <karlUshi>
at the bottom of this page, there are few others Forms markup languages

[22:41:01.0000] <Lachy_>
Is Apollo Adobe's version of Widgets, like Apple Dasboard?

[22:41:02.0000] <karlUshi>
http://xml.coverpages.org/xmlForms.html

[22:41:03.0000] <karlUshi>
XHTML-FML, XFDL, XFA, EFS

[22:43:00.0000] <sayrer>
Lachy_: I think it is Adobe's version of Visual Basic

[22:44:00.0000] <sayrer>
whether it will succeed is an interesting question

[22:44:01.0000] <sayrer>
some say people that would have been VB programmers are PHP guys now

[22:45:00.0000] <Lachy_>
ok. Their description: "[a system] that allows developers to leverage their existing web development skills (Flash, Flex, HTML, JavaScript, Ajax) to build and deploy Rich Internet Applications (RIAs) to the desktop." makes it sound like a widget

[22:45:01.0000] <sayrer>
so Apollo won't really work if that's the case

[22:45:02.0000] <Lachy_>
http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Apollo:DeveloperFAQ#What_is_Apollo.3F

[22:45:03.0000] <csarven>
/me (n=nevrasc⊙m1mvc) Quit ()

[22:45:04.0000] <sayrer>
does anyone here know Flex?

[22:46:00.0000] <Lachy_>
I hope it fails. Flash is a big enough problem already, without it being pushed even further

[22:46:01.0000] <sayrer>
I don't see flash as a "problem"

[22:47:00.0000] <sayrer>
it happens to work better in presentations than other things

[22:47:01.0000] <sayrer>
that is how it ends up on the web

[22:47:02.0000] <Lachy_>
from a usability point of view on the web, I hate flash

[22:47:03.0000] <sayrer>
yep, presentationware vs. software

[22:48:00.0000] <sayrer>
but there is nothing immoral about presentationware

[22:49:00.0000] <Lachy_>
the immoral part of flash is that it's a proprietary technology

[22:49:01.0000] <sayrer>
Lachy_: are you using linux right now?

[22:50:00.0000] <sayrer>
none of those binary drivers or nonfree codecs, I hope

[22:50:01.0000] <Lachy_>
sayrer: I don't mind proprietary technologies in general on the desktop, the problem with proprietary on the web is that it locks all users into a single vendor

[22:51:00.0000] <karlUshi>
sayrer: plus the computer hardware which must be full of proprietary technos ;)

[22:51:01.0000] <sayrer>
Lachy_: hmm, I don't buy it as a goal

[22:51:02.0000] <sayrer>
choice and interop is the goal

[22:51:03.0000] <sayrer>
and accessibility

[22:51:04.0000] <Lachy_>
yeah, that's right.

[22:52:00.0000] <sayrer>
I am the only person I know who can't run flash

[22:52:01.0000] <Lachy_>
proprietary technologies take away choice and interop

[22:52:02.0000] <sayrer>
so it is not the worst thing ever

[22:52:03.0000] <sayrer>
oh, I don't agree with that

[22:52:04.0000] <sayrer>
that is just a facile opposition of "proprietary" with "choice"

[22:53:00.0000] <karlUshi>
interoperability = two persons not knowing each other can build applications that works together. compatibility = systems designed to work with another system. 

[22:53:01.0000] <sayrer>
they certainly don't hurt interop, in flash's case

[22:53:02.0000] <karlUshi>
so interoperability can be achieved only if the technology is documented.

[22:53:03.0000] <sayrer>
for instance, Flash on mac works well with flash on windows

[22:53:04.0000] <sayrer>
you couldn't say that about MS Word

[22:53:05.0000] <Lachy_>
but the client software is still from the same vendor

[22:54:00.0000] <sayrer>
so

[22:54:01.0000] <bzed_>
/me (n=bzed⊙dpan) Quit ("Leaving")

[22:54:02.0000] <sayrer>
that might be interesting if you are a business competing with Adobe

[22:54:03.0000] <sayrer>
otherwise, who really cares

[22:54:04.0000] <karlUshi>
interoperability is not about choices, it is about technology documented.

[22:55:00.0000] <ravenn>
/me (n=ravenn⊙2dina) has left #whatwg

[22:55:01.0000] <sayrer>
lots of documented technologies aren't interoperable

[22:55:02.0000] <karlUshi>
You could have something under GPL and working on one platform only.

[22:55:03.0000] <Lachy_>
yeah, I know that

[22:55:04.0000] <karlUshi>
sayrer: exactly

[22:55:05.0000] <sayrer>
karlUshi: then I am not sure what you mean

[22:56:00.0000] <sayrer>
"interoperability is not about choices, it is about technology documented."

[22:56:01.0000] <karlUshi>
ah yes I misread about you.

[22:56:02.0000] <karlUshi>
oops

[22:56:03.0000] <karlUshi>
I misread you

[22:56:04.0000] <karlUshi>
hmmm need cafeine

[22:56:05.0000] <karlUshi>
[14:03] <sayrer> lots of documented technologies aren't interoperable

[22:57:00.0000] <karlUshi>
this is not because of the documentation, it is because of implementations

[22:57:01.0000] <sayrer>
disagree

[22:57:02.0000] <karlUshi>
:)

[22:57:03.0000] <sayrer>
take any WS-* standard, w3c or elsewhere

[22:57:04.0000] <Hixie>
html4 is a great example of why documentation isn't enough

[22:57:05.0000] <Hixie>
you need DECENT documentation

[22:57:06.0000] <karlUshi>
Hixie: yes.

[22:57:07.0000] <karlUshi>
not talking about that

[22:58:00.0000] <karlUshi>
interoperability = two persons not knowing each other can build applications that works together. 

[22:58:01.0000] <karlUshi>
compatibility = systems designed to work with another system. 

[22:58:02.0000] <sayrer>
huh, I would say the problems with HTML4 are happy problems

[22:58:03.0000] <sayrer>
karlUshi: those definitions are not operational enough for me

[22:58:04.0000] <karlUshi>
the key for me

[22:59:00.0000] <karlUshi>
is not knowing each other

[22:59:01.0000] <sayrer>
independently developed is important

[22:59:02.0000] <sayrer>
the problem is you tense

[22:59:03.0000] <sayrer>
your tense

[22:59:04.0000] <sayrer>
"two persons not knowing each other can build applications that works together. "

[22:59:05.0000] <sayrer>
I would say "two persons not knowing each other HAVE BUILT applications that works together. "

[22:59:06.0000] <karlUshi>
Excuse my French

[23:00:00.0000] <sayrer>
hehe

[23:00:01.0000] <karlUshi>
understanding interoperability problems ;)

[23:01:00.0000] <sayrer>
but if Flash works basically everywhere, that trumps a crappy standard that doesn't work everywhere, for me

[23:01:01.0000] <othermaciej>
well, a single implementation can be a substitute for interoperability

[23:02:00.0000] <othermaciej>
there are tradeoffs in cost obviously

[23:02:01.0000] <karlUshi>
othermaciej: it is called ersatz ;)

[23:03:00.0000] <sayrer>
you could say that we are sitting around having this conversation because MS got to 95% or so

[23:04:00.0000] <othermaciej>
the single implementation I had in mind was Flash

[23:05:00.0000] <othermaciej>
but yes, Microsoft could have been the single significant web browser implementation

[23:05:01.0000] <sayrer>
well yes, I thought I would provide an interesting twist ;)

[23:06:00.0000] <sayrer>
Flash and MSIE are just two examples of competition for interoperable, documented standards

[23:07:00.0000] <Hixie>
the problem with flash is that in 100 years, when adobe no longer exists, and flash certainly no longer exists, we'll not be able to do anything with .swf files

[23:07:01.0000] <Hixie>
whereas we _will_ be able to play html files

[23:07:02.0000] <sayrer>
I am not bold enough to make 100 yr predictions

[23:08:00.0000] <karlUshi>
hmmm if humankind still exists in 100 years too

[23:08:01.0000] <sayrer>
my point was merely that the competition is stiff

[23:08:02.0000] <Hixie>
(the reason i started whatwg was to make sure that in 100, 200, 1000 years, archeologists don't need to reverse engineer html files to work out what they should do)

[23:09:00.0000] <Hixie>
(that's why i believe error handling documentation is critical)

[23:09:01.0000] <sayrer>
so suggestions for process and stanadardization that don't account for that are not to be welcomed. it doesn't really have anything to do with morals.

[23:10:00.0000] <sayrer>
I am more selfish than Hixie, I guess. I just don't want to waste time.

[23:13:00.0000] <othermaciej>
sayrer: "single implementation" != "interoperable, documented standard" (or did you mean "competition for" in the sense of they aren't in that category)

[23:14:00.0000] <sayrer>
othermaciej: I meant it in the sense of your parenthetical question

[23:14:01.0000] <sayrer>
stupid standards and bad process are worse than bad proprietary technology

[23:16:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I'm more interested in what is good than what sucks more out of bad alternatives

[23:17:00.0000] <sayrer>
I am interested in making sure there is something good

[23:17:01.0000] <karlUshi>
"If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas. " -George Bernard Shaw

[23:30:00.0000] <sayrer>
/me (n=chatzill⊙ucmc) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.74-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.4/2006060816]")

[23:38:00.0000] <othermaciej>
/me (i=mjs@nat/apple/x-b5f32c42b2ac67e6) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[23:48:00.0000] <marcosc>
/me (n=chatzill⊙1112) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[23:55:00.0000] <Lachy_>
/me (n=chatzill⊙5122) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.2/2007021917]")

[23:59:00.0000] <Lachy_>
now this is so ridiculous, it's funny http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JanMar/0052.html :-)

[00:00:00.0000] <Lachy_>
I think it translates to something like "are all the problems in my life caused by XHTML?"

[00:00:01.0000] <Hemebond>
LOL

[00:02:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh my, that's a sad e-mail.

[00:02:01.0000] <Hixie>
maybe i've been pushing the whole "xhtml is evil" thing a little too hard

[00:03:00.0000] <Hemebond>
Aha! So it was yoooooooouuuuu

[00:03:01.0000] <Hemebond>
Why is XHTML evil?

[00:03:02.0000] <Hixie>
didn't you read? it destroys hard drives

[00:04:00.0000] <Lachy_>
and commits credit card fraud

[00:04:01.0000] <Hixie>
indeed

[00:07:00.0000] <Hemebond>
Hixie... why are you telling everyone XHTML is evil?

[00:08:00.0000] <Hemebond>
Hmm. Something has happening to my RSS subscription to hixie.ch

[00:08:01.0000] <Hixie>
i was joking :-)

[00:08:02.0000] <Hixie>
(xhtml itself is not evil, it's boring. sending xhtml as text/html is bad, which is the point i famously make)

[00:09:00.0000] <Lachy__>
my connection dropped out after my last message. What did I miss?

[00:09:01.0000] <Hemebond>
That's what I thought.

[00:09:02.0000] <Lachy__>
ah, never mind, whatbot's active

[00:16:00.0000] <Lachy__>
http://lachy.id.au/log/2007/03/problems-with-xhtml

[00:17:00.0000] <Hemebond>
Lies!

[00:17:01.0000] <Hemebond>
I'm gonna use my XHTML bot to DOS your web server.

[00:17:02.0000] <Lachy__>
ha

[00:18:00.0000] <Lachy__>
it's time to go, cya later

[00:19:00.0000] <Lachy__>
/me (n=chatzill⊙5122) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.2/2007021917]")

[00:23:00.0000] <htmlr_>
/me (n=cjb⊙Cnbna) Quit ()

[00:27:00.0000] <Lachy_>
/me (n=chatzill⊙5122) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[00:30:00.0000] <karlUshi>
Lachy: we receive a lot of these messages. Usually people see the DOCTYPE address in the document source, then it means that if their computer has troubles it is because of W3C.

[00:30:01.0000] <karlUshi>
It is interesting in terms of social behaviour.

[00:38:00.0000] <Hemebond>
http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1172653243&count=1 Hmmmmm

[00:38:01.0000] <Hemebond>
Is there anything to use yet, regarding HTML5?

[00:38:02.0000] <Hemebond>
I'm guessing no.

[00:39:00.0000] <Hemebond>
I could RTFM but...

[00:43:00.0000] <Hemebond>
My Tallest?

[00:43:01.0000] <Hemebond>
Hey, my Tallest!

[00:43:02.0000] <Hixie>
to use?

[00:43:03.0000] <Hemebond>
Nothing has been released yet, is that right?

[00:43:04.0000] <Hixie>
<canvas> is widely implemented

[00:43:05.0000] <Hixie>
web forms 2 is in opera 9

[00:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
drag and drop is in IE and safari

[00:44:01.0000] <Hixie>
autocomplete is in most browsers

[00:44:02.0000] <Hemebond>
And here I sit using Firefox...

[00:44:03.0000] <Hixie>
storage apis are in firefox

[00:44:04.0000] <Hixie>
online/offline apis are in firefox

[00:44:05.0000] <Hemebond>
Oh yeah, heard about that.

[00:44:06.0000] <Hixie>
event-source is in opera9

[00:44:07.0000] <Hemebond>
They're in the next version, arent' they?

[00:45:00.0000] <Hixie>
storage and online/offline are in ff2 i thkn

[00:45:01.0000] <Hixie>
think

[00:45:02.0000] <Hixie>
contenteditable is in IE and other browsers

[00:45:03.0000] <Hixie>
text selection apis are in firefox and other browsers

[00:45:04.0000] <Hixie>
cross-document messaging are in opera

[00:45:05.0000] <Hemebond>
Hmm. I'm very out of touch.

[00:46:00.0000] <Hixie>
sound might be in opera (has that shipped yet?)

[00:46:01.0000] <Hemebond>
Which is strange because I read a lot every night.

[00:46:02.0000] <Hemebond>
I guess I should have been following WHATWG

[00:47:00.0000] <Hemebond>
"The work is currently split between three specifications."

[00:47:01.0000] <karlUshi>
Hixie ;) there is an over characterization on the example you gave in your weblog entry

[00:47:02.0000] <Hemebond>
And there are 2 listed...

[00:47:03.0000] <karlUshi>
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>

[00:47:04.0000] <karlUshi>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd">

[00:47:05.0000] <karlUshi>
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"

[00:47:06.0000] <karlUshi>
xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance"

[00:47:07.0000] <karlUshi>
xsi:schemaLocation="http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/SCHEMA/xhtml11.xsd">

[00:47:08.0000] <Hixie>
Hemebond: the web control spec isn't started yet

[00:47:09.0000] <Hemebond>
I see.

[00:48:00.0000] <karlUshi>
luckily enough you specified that the bold (that people will not read)

[00:48:01.0000] <karlUshi>
is optional :)

[00:48:02.0000] <karlUshi>
is not optional

[00:49:00.0000] <karlUshi>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd">

[00:49:01.0000] <karlUshi>
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">

[00:49:02.0000] <karlUshi>
marketing :)

[00:50:00.0000] <Hixie>
karlUshi: i copied that header straight out of the only example in the spec, so if there's any "marketing" going on, i recommend talking to steven about it.

[00:50:01.0000] <karlUshi>
unrelated. :)

[00:50:02.0000] <Hixie>
not really

[00:50:03.0000] <Hixie>
people write by copy and paste

[00:51:00.0000] <karlUshi>
s/people/geeks/

[00:51:01.0000] <karlUshi>
over characterization again :)

[00:51:02.0000] <Hixie>
my research suggested that it's people in general, but i have no interest in discussing this without actual data

[00:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
and my data is at work

[00:52:01.0000] <karlUshi>
agreed

[01:06:00.0000] <htmlr>
/me (n=cjb⊙1116) Quit ()

[01:19:00.0000] <karlUshi>
/me (n=karl⊙1222) Quit ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?")

[01:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me mumbles something about maybe a lot of the people commenting on this <video> spec didn't read the spec

[01:30:00.0000] <Hemebond>
Down with <video>!

[01:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
you don't like it?

[01:31:00.0000] <Hemebond>
Dunno. Haven't read the spec. ;)

[01:31:01.0000] <Hemebond>
I was talking to Anne last night about it actually.

[01:31:02.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[01:36:00.0000] <Hemebond>
oh. um. I not too keen on it.

[01:37:00.0000] <Hemebond>
But I'll probably change my mind.

[01:37:01.0000] <Hemebond>
Eventually.

[01:46:00.0000] <yod>
/me (n=ot⊙sbn) Quit ("Leaving")

[02:47:00.0000] <krijnh>
[0:41] <zcorpan_> i know some who are subscribed but i haven't seen any mails from them to the list

[02:47:01.0000] <krijnh>
Perhaps the lurkers are because of:

[02:47:02.0000] <krijnh>
[23:15] <Hixie> gotta love some of the mails to whatwg

[02:47:03.0000] <krijnh>
[23:15] <Hixie> "i'm not an expert in any of the relevant topics, but here's my opinion anyway"

[02:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah, that's the reason i lurk on a lot the lists i lurk on -- i just don't know enough about hte topic to contribute, but it's still interesting to listen

[02:48:01.0000] <krijnh>
Probably half of the "Invited Experts" don't qualify themselves as expert and don't dare to give their opinion because of that

[02:48:02.0000] <krijnh>
Exactly

[02:50:00.0000] <krijnh>
When is one an expert btw?

[02:50:01.0000] <Hixie>
when one has experience, usually

[02:51:00.0000] <krijnh>
Hmm

[02:52:00.0000] <krijnh>
"An expert is someone widely recognized as a reliable source of knowledge, technique, or skill whose judgment is accorded authority and status by the public or their peers"

[02:52:01.0000] <krijnh>
Note to self; buy some nice peers

[03:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
hm

[03:10:01.0000] <Hixie>
video.length or video.duration?

[03:10:02.0000] <krijnh>
duration

[03:11:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok

[03:11:01.0000] <Hixie>
change

[03:11:02.0000] <Hixie>
d

[03:11:03.0000] <krijnh>
.length is confusing with array.length

[03:11:04.0000] <krijnh>
Or isn't it?

[03:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
yes. i just confused myself when fixing the spec. :-)

[03:12:01.0000] <krijnh>
And String.length

[03:13:00.0000] <krijnh>
unsigned long

[03:15:00.0000] <krijnh>
TimeRanges.length is also confusing otherwise

[03:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
that's the one that confused me

[03:16:01.0000] <krijnh>
:)

[03:16:02.0000] <krijnh>
Gee, I think like an expert ;]

[03:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me just replied to 123 e-mails in one go

[03:18:01.0000] <krijnh>
<video id="foo"><img></video> <dialog for="foo">..</dialog>

[03:19:00.0000] <krijnh>
Okay, that's pretty useless probably :)

[03:19:01.0000] <Hixie>
ok now i shall work on going to sleep

[03:19:02.0000] <Hixie>
maybe after watching bsg

[03:20:00.0000] <krijnh>
Hixie: on public-html ?

[03:20:01.0000] <Hixie>
no, whatwg list

[03:20:02.0000] <Hixie>
htmlwg isn't discussing <video> as far as i know

[03:21:00.0000] <Hixie>
except for some spillage from the whatwg list

[03:21:01.0000] <krijnh>
Yeah, public-html isn't too interesting yet

[03:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
not clear what public-html will do

[03:22:01.0000] <Hixie>
we're just waiting on cwilso for now i guess

[03:27:00.0000] <krijnh>
"that overloading elements leads to implementation difficulties"

[03:27:01.0000] <krijnh>
It doesn't for <input type="foo">

[03:27:02.0000] <marcosc>
/me reads hixies book-length email on <video>.... great summary, btw :)

[03:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
<input type=foo> is a disaster zone almost as bad as <object>

[03:29:01.0000] <Hixie>
it's had longer to get fixed, so it's better now

[03:29:02.0000] <Hixie>
but it used to be terrible

[03:29:03.0000] <krijnh>
I mean for web forms 2

[03:30:00.0000] <krijnh>
There the type attribute is extended

[03:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
web forms 2 was basically forced into using <input> for back compat with form submission in egacy uas

[03:30:02.0000] <Hixie>
you'll note we used new elements wherever possible

[03:30:03.0000] <Hixie>
legacy uas

[03:31:00.0000] <Hixie>
(one of the big problems with <input> is dynamic changes to the "type" attribute)

[03:33:00.0000] <Charl>
/me (n=charlvn⊙1211) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))

[03:36:00.0000] <icaaq>
/me (i=icaaaq⊙c2cbs) has left #whatwg

[03:36:01.0000] <Hemebond>
So Web Forms 2 doesn't support dynamic element changes?

[03:38:00.0000] <krijnh>
Opera does

[03:43:00.0000] <othermaciej>
<input> generally sucks, the only semi-advantage is that if you invent a new type, users in older UAs just get a text field they can type in

[03:43:01.0000] <othermaciej>
but otherwise, you have all sorts of different behaviors and semantics overloaded onto one element

[03:44:00.0000] <krijnh>
http://krijnhoetmer.nl/stuff/html5/input-changing-attributes/

[04:00:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
/me (n=MikeSmit⊙1612dbj) Quit ("Get thee behind me, satan.")

[05:01:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
borders!

[05:01:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
Charl: cheers

[05:02:00.0000] <Charl>
zcorpan_: hi :)

[05:04:00.0000] <marcosc>
/me (n=chatzill⊙1112) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))

[06:15:00.0000] <BenWard>
/me (n=BenWard⊙cccnc) Quit ()

[06:34:00.0000] <hendry>
/me (n=hendry⊙9851) Quit ("trying to splash")

[06:40:00.0000] <Charl>
/me (n=charlvn⊙1212) Quit ("Leaving")

[06:52:00.0000] <hasather>
/me (n=hasather⊙8ttc) has left #whatwg

[07:04:00.0000] <ravenn>
/me (n=ravenn⊙2dina) has left #whatwg

[07:13:00.0000] <hasather>
/me (n=hasather⊙8ttc) has left #whatwg

[07:19:00.0000] <peepo>
/me (n=Jay⊙hrbc) Quit ("later")

[07:29:00.0000] <hasather>
/me (n=hasather⊙8ttc) has left #whatwg

[07:29:01.0000] <csarven>
/me (n=nevrasc⊙m1mvc) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))

[07:37:00.0000] <csarven>
/me (n=nevrasc⊙m1mvc) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))

[07:39:00.0000] <mpt>
/me (n=mpt⊙1dtn) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[07:48:00.0000] <hasather>
/me (n=hasather⊙8ttc) has left #whatwg

[08:06:00.0000] <hasather>
/me (n=hasather⊙8ttc) has left #whatwg

[08:20:00.0000] <webben>
/me (i=benh@nat/yahoo/x-311efa5bbe0846f4) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[08:33:00.0000] <Lachy>
http://booskovski.blogspot.com/2006/11/richard-dawkins-some-great-clips.html - wow, 30 is a lot of videos embedded in one page!

[09:02:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
i really dislike the various JS hacks to get around target=_blank not being valid :|

[09:03:00.0000] <krijnh>
I prefer setAttribute('target', '_blank')

[09:04:00.0000] <krijnh>
</sarcasm> btw

[09:08:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
+1 on dropping togglePause() fwiw

[09:09:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
it's safer to check the state than to presume what the state was

[09:09:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
...when doing the scripted ui, that is

[09:25:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
/me is replying to fallback

[09:49:00.0000] <hasather>
/me (n=hasather⊙8ttc) has left #whatwg

[09:56:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
http://www.accessifyforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7688 great news

[09:57:00.0000] <met_>
I saw forum discussion from yesterday, on http://forum.czilla.cz/ we made for moderators who do not want waste time still checking the forum, patch which send mail everytime new topic (or any new post) came with topic text. So moderators can simply check mails and see immidiatelly when some spam, of off-topic come

[10:27:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
thinking about applying to a summer job at opera, perhaps i should start with a real test suite for html5 then

[10:34:00.0000] <tantek>
/me (n=tantek⊙adspn) Quit ()

[10:39:00.0000] <sayrer>
/me (n=chatzill⊙ucmc) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[10:41:00.0000] <Dashiva>
That Gareth Hay fellow confuses me. Is he really arguing two contradicting points at the same time?

[10:46:00.0000] <ROBOd>
/me (n=robod⊙8321) Quit ("http://www.robodesign.ro")

[11:12:00.0000] <peepo>
/me (n=Jay⊙hrbc) Quit ("later")

[11:24:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Lachy: LOL

[11:31:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me is catching up with the public-html archive

[11:31:01.0000] <hsivonen>
I wonder if I should wait for Chris Wilson to join before metooing to Howcome's proposal...

[11:32:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
/me would

[11:33:00.0000] <hsivonen>
yeah

[11:36:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
why isn't there a "translate this page" plugin/extension for any browser that does the translation client-side?

[11:36:01.0000] <hober>
/me is sad that public-html isn't available via gmane (yet)

[11:36:02.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan_: I can think of two reasons:

[11:37:00.0000] <hsivonen>
1) It doesn't work with the business model of Systran and the willingness of individual users to pay.

[11:37:01.0000] <sayrer>
google translate?

[11:38:00.0000] <hsivonen>
2) Google's competing methodology relies on massive data and processing power. And their secret sauce that they don't want to let other decompile.

[11:38:01.0000] <sayrer>
looks like the Google Toolbar does it

[11:38:02.0000] <sayrer>
but that wouldn't work clientside

[11:39:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
hsivonen: btw, do you have the google translate bookmarklet again?

[11:39:01.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan_: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/translate.html

[11:39:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
thanks

[11:41:00.0000] <tylerr>
Hello all. Just put in my information to be accepted to the working group over at W3C.

[11:41:01.0000] <tylerr>
Thought I'd jump in here and say hello.

[11:47:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
tylerr: hi

[11:48:00.0000] <hsivonen>
hi

[11:49:00.0000] <tylerr>
Howdy

[11:49:01.0000] <tylerr>
I figure this is something I would like to be a part of since I'm spearheading standards and accessibility evangelism at my company.

[11:49:02.0000] <Dashiva>
Chris seemed like such a nice guy, and then it turns out he's a top-poster :(

[11:49:03.0000] <zcorpan_>
lol

[11:50:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
tylerr: which company?

[11:51:00.0000] <tylerr>
Ascentium Corporation. We have a presence in a large majority of Microsoft's internal and external pages and portals.

[11:51:01.0000] <tylerr>
So the opportunity to promote standards-based design and development is rather large.

[11:53:00.0000] <hsivonen>
cool

[11:54:00.0000] <tylerr>
It's going to be a challenge but the rewards will outweigh any rockblocks along the way.

[11:54:01.0000] <tylerr>
What about yourselves?

[11:55:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=7#32

[11:56:00.0000] <tylerr>
Ah well that would answer that! Perhaps I'll go and introduce myself over there. ;)

[11:56:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
go ahead :)

[11:58:00.0000] <Dashiva>
IRC name or real name as forum name... decisions, decisions...

[12:10:00.0000] <tylerr>
I've given up trying to identify myself with an avatar-like identity. I'm a very indecisive individual so after a week of using a name, I'm likely to hate it. :)

[12:12:00.0000] <hsivonen>
tylerr: I'm the conformance checking guy

[12:13:00.0000] <tylerr>
Ah! So I'd come to you for all indecisiveness-related issues? ;)

[12:13:01.0000] <hsivonen>
tylerr: I don't decide what's conforming.

[12:14:00.0000] <tylerr>
Ah right right.

[12:14:01.0000] <kingryan>
tylerr: I agree, all of my online identities are now variations on my real name. avatars are annoying.

[12:15:00.0000] <tylerr>
kingryan: It's so much easier to remember your username. ;)

[12:19:00.0000] <Dashiva>
tylerr: When you've been using the same one for 10 years, it's sometimes more recognizable than your real name would be :)

[12:21:00.0000] <tylerr>
This is very true. **grins** I've only been using the internet personally for about 6 years, and my interest in web technologies hadn't sprung up until about 3 years ago. Now my online identity is spewed all over random technology and Apple sites. **laughs**

[12:24:00.0000] <tylerr>
And apparently Google likes to show information about me that has been deleted for a while still.

[12:29:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Mailing list archives provide an interesting peek into the past

[12:39:00.0000] <othermaciej>
wow, Chris Wilson's remarks on public-html were pretty intemperate

[12:44:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Did you see the blog exchange between Chris and Daniel?

[12:44:01.0000] <met_>
blog was ok

[12:44:02.0000] <othermaciej>
yes

[12:45:00.0000] <tylerr>
I read that, that was pretty *interesting*.

[12:47:00.0000] <Charl>
/me (n=charlvn⊙1211) Quit ()

[12:55:00.0000] <Dashiva>
http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=12

[12:55:01.0000] <Dashiva>
That one puzzles me. 

[12:57:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me sees the thread in public-html and decides to stay the hell out of it

[12:59:00.0000] <hsivonen>
it seems that a number of people are confused about how patent law works (for some definition of "works") and what the W3C Patent Policy can and cannot protect against

[13:00:00.0000] <Hixie>
there's a patent thread?

[13:00:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: I'm reading archives from the 14th

[13:00:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Re: Preparing to launch the Forms Task Force ...

[13:01:00.0000] <sayrer>
the last thing you want is a bunch of armchair lawyering

[13:02:00.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: more to the point, the last thing you want is *bad* armchair lawyering. othermaciej's armchair lawyering with dbaron's amendments was fine

[13:02:01.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: ah

[13:02:02.0000] <sayrer>
hsivonen: I disagree

[13:03:00.0000] <sayrer>
though I do agree some armchair lawyering can be especially bad

[13:03:01.0000] <icaaq>
hsivonen: Hi, I sent an emil to you about printing the spec, did you get it?

[13:03:02.0000] <hsivonen>
icaaq: I did. still catching up with last week's email.

[13:03:03.0000] <Dashiva>
Hixie: I gather from comments earlier that the html5 spec is at least partially generated. Would it be much work to also generate a version split into sections on different pages?

[13:04:00.0000] <hsivonen>
icaaq: I am wondering though why you sent it to me considering that I haven't blogged about printing the WHATWG specs yet (although I intend to)

[13:04:01.0000] <icaaq>
hsivonen: someone here told me to. 

[13:04:02.0000] <Hixie>
Dashiva: it would be some work, maybe not a huge amount. i will end up doing it in due course if no-one else does.

[13:05:00.0000] <hsivonen>
icaaq: ah. ok.

[13:06:00.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: the problem is that it is really, really hard to get a real lawyer say something definitive on a mailing list. and someone needed to say that bogus reasons for avoiding the existing WHATWG prose are bogus

[13:07:00.0000] <sayrer>
oh, it's better to focus the discussion on technical matters

[13:07:01.0000] <Hixie>
the XMLHttpRequest spec is cute, it reads like one of my specs

[13:08:00.0000] <sayrer>
oh my, cwilson is off to an excellent start as chair

[13:08:01.0000] <sayrer>
:/

[13:10:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Hixie: Is that a compliment, or? :)

[13:26:00.0000] <Hixie>
dunno :-)

[13:26:01.0000] <Hixie>
depends if you like my style or not

[13:35:00.0000] <hsivonen>
looks like in general the new people on public-html haven't internalized the backwards compat mindset yet :-(

[13:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
they haven't internalised the polite community aspect yet either it seems

[13:36:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I am sure they are educable

[13:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
i love how when i send out one of my gigantic e-mail replies to threads on whatwg, everyone dutifully forgets the earlier threads and replies to my mail instead

[13:38:01.0000] <Hixie>
makes my life so much easier

[13:39:00.0000] <othermaciej>
hsivonen: I was reluctant to do any armchair lawyering, but I didn't think any real lawyers would speak up

[13:39:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Heh

[13:40:00.0000] <othermaciej>
sayrer: it seemed like poor form to lose his cool like that

[13:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
http://ifacethoughts.net/2007/03/20/help-with-html-5/ is funny

[13:42:00.0000] <hasather>
Hixie: hehe

[13:42:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: I'm not sure I really like it in a spec, but it's good for a laugh (as it's expected to be more formal)

[13:42:02.0000] <Dashiva>
Hixie: I feel it sort of clears the table when you send one out. There's a "If I like this, I can just stop talking, if I don't like it I have this specific point to argue against"

[13:43:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Instead of all the what-ifs and uncollapsed wavefunctions floating around normally

[13:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
gsnedders: oh i didn't mean the humour, i meant the general way it phrases things, the way the idl is presented, etc.

[13:43:02.0000] <Hixie>
Dashiva: hah, yeah :-) that kinda is what i was going for :-)

[13:44:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: surely the humour is part of the general way it is presented, and therefore how things are phrased?

[13:44:01.0000] <gsnedders>
:D

[13:44:02.0000] <gsnedders>
(wrong window)

[13:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh well the tone might be

[13:48:01.0000] <Hixie>
there's some text in the web apps spec that is purely intended to be funny though

[13:48:02.0000] <Hixie>
and that really doesn't belong in a formal spec except for making the spec easier and more fun to read

[13:48:03.0000] <Hixie>
(in fact there's all kinds of easter eggs in there, especially in the examples)

[13:48:04.0000] <gsnedders>
if you must appease the markup gods…

[13:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
that's one example :-)

[13:49:01.0000] <sayrer>
heh

[13:49:02.0000] <gsnedders>
I came across that a few minutes ago

[13:49:03.0000] <othermaciej>
I am all in favor of amusing examples

[13:49:04.0000] <gsnedders>
"Then, if the element is one of the void elements, then there may be a single U+002F SOLIDUS (/) character. This character has no effect except to appease the markup gods. As this character is therefore just a symbol of faith, atheists should omit it."

[13:49:05.0000] <gsnedders>
that's the full text

[13:49:06.0000] <othermaciej>
otherwise one's eyes glaze over

[13:50:00.0000] <Hixie>
gsnedders: there are lots of others :-)

[13:50:01.0000] <Dashiva>
html5lib has an atheistParseError function

[13:50:02.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: yeah, that was my thought too

[13:50:03.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: I've seen plenty :)

[13:50:04.0000] <Hixie>
the css spec has some too

[13:50:05.0000] <Hixie>
2.1 spec and selectors spec

[13:50:06.0000] <gsnedders>
Dashiva: how's that actually raised?

[13:50:07.0000] <gsnedders>
Tantek is the editor is those, right?

[13:51:00.0000] <Dashiva>
gsnedders: The error text is "This error is not an error", for what it's worth

[13:51:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Not error text, error comment

[13:51:02.0000] <gsnedders>
shouldn't it really be, "You cannot find the error until you accept the truth – there is no error."

[13:52:00.0000] <Dashiva>
And it is raised for the part you quoted earlier

[13:53:00.0000] <Hixie>
gsnedders: i'm one of the editors, tantek is too

[13:58:00.0000] <met_>
Hixie, the egg with gods lead to one whole article critisizing whole WHATWG effort (in czech, sorry), but based mainly on this sentence

[13:59:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Are we godless heathens trying to destroy society?

[13:59:01.0000] <met_>
shame many people folowed author opinion

[13:59:02.0000] <Hixie>
met_: hah

[13:59:03.0000] <met_>
here http://www.root.cz/clanky/akta-x-html-5-jako-alternativa-ke-xhtml/ but in czech

[14:00:00.0000] <Hixie>
should we drop togglePause()?

[14:00:01.0000] <Hixie>
met_: interesting, thanks

[14:00:02.0000] <met_>
they cited http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2007/01/10/is-xml-20-under-development.html mistaken that there is some nex XML 2.0

[14:01:00.0000] <bewest>
hjmm? we discussing <video>?

[14:01:01.0000] <bewest>
what about the onend event?

[14:01:02.0000] <bewest>
(or lack thereof)

[14:01:03.0000] <Hixie>
i'm going through the latest feedback as we speak

[14:01:04.0000] <bewest>
oh ok

[14:01:05.0000] <bewest>
/me quiets down

[14:02:00.0000] <Hixie>
i sent mail about onend yesterday

[14:02:01.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie: othermaciej's thoughts on togglePause() seem accurate to me

[14:02:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: i'd say yes (reasons are 5h ago in the irc logs)

[14:03:00.0000] <sayrer>
it is not that useful since you have to know the state to draw the ui

[14:03:01.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: uri?

[14:03:02.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: or do you mean those i replied to yesterday

[14:03:03.0000] <sayrer>
erm, in this channel yesterday or the day before

[14:03:04.0000] <sayrer>
I don't have time to read the WHATWG list lately, sorry

[14:03:05.0000] <Hixie>
heh ok

[14:03:06.0000] <Hixie>
just read my mails ;-)

[14:04:00.0000] <hsivonen>
too bad Google Translator does not support Czech.

[14:07:00.0000] <tylerr>
Hi there Hixie. I read your blog a day or two ago and have signed up for the working group.

[14:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
cool!

[14:09:00.0000] <tylerr>
I figure I sit around at work complaining about standards and semantics all day, why not do something about it if my work doesn't care (yet)? **smiles**

[14:09:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
met_: what does "Oba budou vždy existovat zároveň." mean?

[14:11:00.0000] <met_>
zcorpan_, "Both will exists simultaneously for ever"

[14:11:01.0000] <met_>
zcorpan_, and the question above was "Which language has better future."

[14:12:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
ok

[14:12:01.0000] <met_>
it was about 2 weeks before W3C puhlished HTML WG press release

[14:12:02.0000] <met_>
than I wrote other article http://www.root.cz/clanky/html-vracime-se-ke-korenum/ from other point of view (still in Czech 8-)

[14:12:03.0000] <tylerr>
When is the working group kicking off actual work and such?

[14:13:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
/me votes for "Oba budou vždy existovat zároveň." :)

[14:13:01.0000] <met_>
/me oks

[14:14:00.0000] <hsivonen>
tylerr: probably after Chris Wilson joins. and if not then, probably after XTech. (just guessing)

[14:14:01.0000] <bewest>
are they just waiting for chis wilson or others as well?

[14:14:02.0000] <tylerr>
Ah okay then hsivonen. Thanks. Gives me time to work on establishing my new blog.

[14:14:03.0000] <Hixie>
tylerr: the WHATWG has been working since about 2004, the W3C HTML WG will start in a few weeks

[14:15:00.0000] <Hixie>
tylerr: and this is the WHATWG channel :-)

[14:15:01.0000] <othermaciej>
bewest: at this point, it's mainly waiting for him, since he is co-chair, I don't think anyone would wait for MS just as a browser vendor at this point

[14:15:02.0000] <tylerr>
Righto Hixie. Does the W3C WG have a channel as of yet?

[14:15:03.0000] <tylerr>
I'd like to hop over to that one as well.

[14:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
i don't think so, but you could e-mail the list and ask

[14:16:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't think it does

[14:16:02.0000] <tylerr>
Lovely, that I shall!

[14:16:03.0000] <bewest>
othermaciej: yeah, that's what I thought

[14:21:00.0000] <icaaq>
/me (n=icaaaq⊙c2cbs) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[14:23:00.0000] <briansuda>
/me (n=briansud⊙dhi) Quit ()

[14:26:00.0000] <Lachy>
oh gosh, I'd have thought Chris Wilson would have had more sense than to top-post and use Outlook :-(

[14:26:01.0000] <Lachy>
but then again, he is from MS

[14:29:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I must inform you I have an essential claim on complaining about Chris Wilsom top-posting

[14:29:01.0000] <Dashiva>
/me points a few hours back in logs

[14:30:00.0000] <sayrer>
lol

[14:33:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=15

[14:34:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
why is the story always "X is broken, let's replace it with something else!" instead of "X is broken, let's fix it!"?

[14:34:01.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan_: because the implementation for something else won't have bugs

[14:34:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
oh right

[14:35:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
of course

[14:37:00.0000] <ROBOd>
/me (n=robod⊙8321) Quit ("http://www.robodesign.ro")

[14:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
_that's_ what confused the hell out of me

[14:39:01.0000] <Hixie>
it's when people say "x is really badly implemented, so to fix this, we're going to invent a new thing y" and people seriously and truly assume that the implementation of y will be bug free

[14:39:02.0000] <Hixie>
you can see that even in dave ragget's cforms transitional spec

[14:39:03.0000] <Hixie>
xforms

[14:42:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
we should listen to vlad's feedback on contenteditable and see how we can address his concerns

[14:43:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
other than fixing browser bugs that is

[14:44:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
if any, all i've seen so far only has to do with browser bugs and contenteditable being presentational in its nature

[14:46:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
ideally, xstandard should be possible to implement using contenteditable

[14:55:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah, if you can work out what we should change to make the spec better i'd love to fix contendeditable

[15:01:00.0000] <hasather>
/me (n=hasather⊙8ttc) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[15:01:01.0000] <othermaciej>
zcorpan_: depends on if things are broken by design or merely broken as implemented

[15:01:02.0000] <othermaciej>
I think contentEditable suffers mainly from being implemented differently (and buggily) in every browser, and in not having any kind of formal spec

[15:01:03.0000] <othermaciej>
but it does also have some level of design bogosity

[15:04:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
i don't know much about contenteditable, we should probably invite people using it to see how it can be improved

[15:04:01.0000] <Hixie>
contentEditable does have some level of formal spec in HTML5

[15:06:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan_: the status script is doing weird things :-) http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#designMode

[15:06:01.0000] <Hixie>
or http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#command

[15:07:00.0000] <Hixie>
looks like we'll need a UI to make the status file easy to edit now

[15:07:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: it's not the script that doing weird things, it's just the xml file that's pointing to <dfn>s as opposed to <hX>s

[15:07:02.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[15:07:03.0000] <zcorpan_>
i haven't looked in to how to make the xml file editable yet

[15:07:04.0000] <bewest>
the onautopaused trick might work for onended

[15:08:00.0000] <bewest>
although I'm not sure you can have too many events

[15:11:00.0000] <Hixie>
well if you want onended, then send a mail to the list describing the exact conditions under which you want it to fire

[15:11:01.0000] <Hixie>
(e.g. should it fire if you pause then seek to the end then hit play?)

[15:11:02.0000] <Hixie>
(how about if you seek to the end when it hasn't been buffered yet?)

[15:11:03.0000] <Hixie>
(how about if you seek to the end but the last frame isn't buffered, and it autopauses, then it downloads the frame?)

[15:20:00.0000] <csarven>
/me (n=nevrasc⊙m1mvc) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))

[15:22:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
not having too many events is a good way to reduce interop problems, i think... :)

[15:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
hinsofar as an event is a feature and having not too many features is a good way to reduce interop issues, yes :-)

[15:27:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
ah, i thought without src="" <video> would fall back. hmm.

[15:40:00.0000] <kingryan>
/me (n=kingryan⊙dsdsn) Quit ()

[15:45:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
so <video> is more like <iframe> than <object> wrt fallback? it never falls back in uas that support <video> and has video enabled?

[15:45:01.0000] <tylerr>
/me looks around after taking a break to actually get some work done.

[15:46:00.0000] <kingryan>
/me (n=kingryan⊙dsdsn) Quit (Client Quit)


2007-03-21
[02:37:00.0000] <krijnh>
Charl: you there?

[02:57:00.0000] <Charl>
krijnh: yes am here still, just not actively watching irc

[02:57:01.0000] <Charl>
krijnh: writing my application for google soc :)

[03:16:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hey Charl, you there?

[03:29:00.0000] <Charl>
Lachy: i am here right now, but will have to disappear for an hour or so, bbl

[03:29:01.0000] <Charl>
mail me please anyone, will read your mail as soon as i get back

[03:30:00.0000] <Charl>
or just use memoserve ;)

[03:32:00.0000] <Lachy>
nah, I was just gonna ask you why you weren't on MSN or Skype

[06:19:00.0000] <Charl>
hi BenWard :)

[06:19:01.0000] <BenWard>
Hi Charl :) I wondered if I'd stumble upon you in here. How're you doing?

[06:20:00.0000] <Charl>
very good thanks, yourself?

[06:25:00.0000] <Charl>
/me changes topic to 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://whatbot.charlvn.za.net/ or http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic (and software patents) at the door, thanks! -- http://blog.whatwg.org/w3c-restarts-html-effort thanks to us!'

[06:25:01.0000] <Charl>
i seriously think somebody needs to get this channel on chanserv

[06:25:02.0000] <Charl>
so that we can have a proper entry message

[06:25:03.0000] <Charl>
instead of trying to squeeze everything into the title

[06:25:04.0000] <Charl>
this is channel title abuse :)

[06:26:00.0000] <BenWard>
Yeah… not too bad. I lost my job on Monday (company ran out of money) so I'm currently in the frantic freelancing limbo stage.

[06:27:00.0000] <Charl>
wow that sucks; i'm sure there'll be lots of work coming in, i hear the IT industry in many areas of europe is booming right now

[06:27:01.0000] <Charl>
i know here it is

[06:27:02.0000] <Charl>
we can hardly keep up, that's why i'm not active on many of the mailing lists right now :)

[06:34:00.0000] <krijnh>
Charl: freelancing doesn't suck :)

[06:34:01.0000] <Charl>
krijnh: not at all, only loosing your job :)

[06:35:00.0000] <Charl>
zcorpan: hi there

[06:35:01.0000] <zcorpan>
Charl: hi

[06:36:00.0000] <Charl>
zcorpan: sorry for being so silent from my side, i am desperately trying to get my google soc applications in

[06:36:01.0000] <Charl>
zcorpan: next week i'll be back to normal :)

[06:37:00.0000] <zcorpan>
no worries

[07:25:00.0000] <Dashiva>
So the html wg IRC channel is on yet another network. That puts my single-channel network count at... 6

[07:37:00.0000] <Lachy>
it would have been better if the HTMLWG just joined in here, since most (I think) of us in here are on the HTMLWG.

[07:39:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Or have the channel on this network, even if it was a different channel

[07:40:00.0000] <Lachy>
oh wow, the topic of this channel just keeps growing :-)

[07:41:00.0000] <Lachy>
krijnh, will you be importing the logs from whatbot into your irc-logs server?  Then we can remove one of the URIs and redirect whatbot to your site

[07:52:00.0000] <Charl>
that would be better yes

[07:53:00.0000] <Charl>
i actually want to kill the java process running whatbot

[07:53:01.0000] <Charl>
it's just wasting bandwidth at the moment

[07:53:02.0000] <Charl>
i'll have to take down that server

[07:53:03.0000] <Charl>
so the previous logs will be lost

[07:53:04.0000] <Charl>
unless they can find a new home

[07:53:05.0000] <Charl>
they're just static files

[07:53:06.0000] <Charl>
so i'm sure i'll be able to upload them somewhere

[07:54:00.0000] <Charl>
it would of course be cooler if krijn can just import them all

[07:54:01.0000] <krijnh>
Yeah sure, I have nothing to do anyway ;)

[07:56:00.0000] <Charl>
you gotta be kidding :)

[07:56:01.0000] <krijnh>
I was ;)

[07:56:02.0000] <Charl>
thought as much :P

[07:56:03.0000] <krijnh>
Timezones are different though

[07:56:04.0000] <krijnh>
1 hour

[07:56:05.0000] <Charl>
oh yeah, SAST is UTC+02:00

[07:57:00.0000] <Charl>
holland is on UTC+01:00 i think

[07:57:01.0000] <krijnh>
Jup

[07:57:02.0000] <krijnh>
Although the page says timestamps are in GMT/BST

[07:57:03.0000] <Charl>
bah

[07:57:04.0000] <krijnh>
Is it a problem?

[07:58:00.0000] <krijnh>
Else I just copy 'n paste everything :)

[07:58:01.0000] <Charl>
i really wish we could just use UTC for absolutely everything

[07:58:02.0000] <Charl>
even adjust our clocks to that

[07:58:03.0000] <Charl>
would make things so much simpler

[07:58:04.0000] <Charl>
nah i don't think anybody is going to cry about 1 hour

[07:58:05.0000] <Charl>
i can zip all those logfiles and send them to you though if you want

[07:58:06.0000] <krijnh>
I want :)

[07:59:00.0000] <Charl>
cool i'll be back at work tomorrow then i'll struggle with my server a bit and get things organised

[07:59:01.0000] <Charl>
today is public holiday in ZA

[07:59:02.0000] <krijnh>
What are you doing here then?

[07:59:03.0000] <Charl>
bah i don't take holidays ;)

[08:03:00.0000] <krijnh>
http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20061201

[08:03:01.0000] <krijnh>
:]

[08:03:02.0000] <krijnh>
Okay, that'll work

[08:03:03.0000] <krijnh>
Although now the fluffy colors are gone

[08:04:00.0000] <met_>
krijnh, nice can make link to particular comment

[08:04:01.0000] <krijnh>
Yes

[08:04:02.0000] <krijnh>
If more is needed, let me know

[08:05:00.0000] <krijnh>
Gotta add some filters for hiding joins/quits et cetera

[08:06:00.0000] <Charl>
and whatbot is officially dead

[08:06:01.0000] <Charl>
:)

[08:06:02.0000] <krijnh>
RIP

[08:07:00.0000] <krijnh>
I wonder what happens when my connection drops

[08:09:00.0000] <Charl>
i know what happened when mine did: whatbot got pwned :)

[08:09:01.0000] <krijnh>
Just a gap in the logs I suppose?

[08:10:00.0000] <Charl>
yeah exactly

[08:50:00.0000] <krijnh>
Anybody; is the filter usable like this; http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070321 ?

[08:51:00.0000] <billmason>
wfm

[08:53:00.0000] <krijnh>
wfm? ;)

[08:53:01.0000] <billmason>
it Works For Me

[08:53:02.0000] <krijnh>
Just kidding :)

[08:54:00.0000] <zcorpan>
not <dialog>? ;)

[08:55:00.0000] <krijnh>
<dialog> needs <dt><dd>

[08:55:01.0000] <krijnh>
I told you I like <li> ;)

[08:55:02.0000] <zcorpan>
oh yep

[08:56:00.0000] <krijnh>
There, dialog

[08:56:01.0000] <krijnh>
:P

[08:58:00.0000] <krijnh>
Nah

[08:58:01.0000] <zcorpan>
it isn't possible to use <dialog> for a log like that, as currently defined

[08:59:00.0000] <zcorpan>
you can't have timestamps and you can't have things like [14:01] * Joins: Charl (n=charlvn⊙1211)

[08:59:01.0000] <krijnh>
Which aren't too interesting anyway

[08:59:02.0000] <krijnh>
Imho

[09:00:00.0000] <krijnh>
For a log

[09:00:01.0000] <zcorpan>
but /me is

[09:00:02.0000] <zcorpan>
how would you mark up those?

[09:00:03.0000] <zcorpan>
/me wonders

[09:01:00.0000] <krijnh>
<li class="status join"> I think

[09:01:01.0000] <krijnh>
In this case

[09:01:02.0000] <zcorpan>
the join/quit can just be stripped

[09:24:00.0000] <krijnh>
zcorpan: Done

[09:27:00.0000] <zcorpan>
krijnh: nice

[09:28:00.0000] <krijnh>
The code isn't, but heck

[09:33:00.0000] <Charl>
krijnh: the only people who have perfect code are utterly bored

[09:34:00.0000] <krijnh>
Nah

[09:36:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Lachy: s60webkit is not an exception to the rule that mobile browsers is tagsoup all the way (reading #html-wg logs)

[09:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
hm, using <li> inside dialog isn't a bad idea

[09:48:01.0000] <Hixie>
for non-dialog directions

[09:49:00.0000] <sayrer>
so I guess the HTML WG will start with http://esw.w3.org/topic/RequirementsDocument

[09:49:01.0000] <sayrer>
/me sighs

[09:49:02.0000] <annevk>
why not <p>?

[09:49:03.0000] <annevk>
sayrer, no, you can say how you want it to start

[09:49:04.0000] <sayrer>
well first I would have to join it

[09:49:05.0000] <annevk>
afaik DanC is just putting down some thoughts

[09:49:06.0000] <annevk>
sayrer, I suppose

[09:49:07.0000] <sayrer>
actually, I guess it doesn't matter

[09:50:00.0000] <annevk>
public-html does accept e-mails from people not in the group

[09:50:01.0000] <sayrer>
if it comes down to it, Mozilla gets one vote

[09:50:02.0000] <sayrer>
but I don't expect there will ever be a vote

[09:51:00.0000] <annevk>
i hope not

[09:51:01.0000] <sayrer>
is there any other reason to join?

[09:51:02.0000] <annevk>
at the moment it's just to state your opinion, pretty much...

[09:51:03.0000] <annevk>
I suspect that one MS joins there might be some more activity

[09:51:04.0000] <annevk>
such as how it's going to work...

[09:52:00.0000] <sayrer>
that should be "interesting"

[09:52:01.0000] <zcorpan>
annevk: i guess since <p> is allowed where block-level elements are allowed, having <dialog><p> would imply that <dialog> can take any block-level elements. <li> is only allowed in specific places, so authors wouldn't get the idea that anything is allowed in <dialog>

[09:52:02.0000] <annevk>
sayrer, you always love a good flamebait ;)

[09:53:00.0000] <sayrer>
yeah... trying to ignore it... :)

[09:53:01.0000] <annevk>
hah

[09:53:02.0000] <sayrer>
just make sure none of your proposals harm the ecology of the Document object ;)

[10:16:00.0000] <bewest>
I don't know how in the world Hixie has time to respond to so many emails and edit the spec

[10:16:01.0000] <annevk>
it's his job

[10:16:02.0000] <bewest>
hmm

[10:16:03.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[10:16:04.0000] <Hixie>
it's my job :-)

[10:17:00.0000] <bewest>
even so...

[10:20:00.0000] <met_>
/me wonders if dialog can be used also for monolog like Hamlet's 8-)

[11:02:00.0000] <hendry>
i don't quite understand how "a final form medium" and "democratise web authoring" are related

[11:02:01.0000] <hendry>
esp. the last P.S. Argument

[11:03:00.0000] <hendry>
We have XML that can be adapted for different devices ... wtf

[11:04:00.0000] <hendry>
I don't think HTML content needs to be adapted for different devices

[11:04:01.0000] <hendry>
and XML isn't easier to edit than HTML is it?

[11:04:02.0000] <annevk>
depends on your god

[11:05:00.0000] <hendry>
annevk: what gods are there then?

[11:05:01.0000] <annevk>
you've got the Hixie god

[11:05:02.0000] <annevk>
and you've got Chris Lilley

[11:05:03.0000] <Hixie>
i'm no god.

[11:06:00.0000] <annevk>
oh

[11:06:01.0000] <annevk>
/me 's world collapses

[11:06:02.0000] <Hixie>
i'm immortal, but i'm not a god. :-P

[11:06:03.0000] <gsnedders>
I thought it depended if you believed in markup gods or not?

[11:08:00.0000] <annevk>
gsnedders, that's trailing slashes in void elements in text/html documents

[11:08:01.0000] <annevk>
but sure

[11:08:02.0000] <hendry>
Hixie: what is your opinion on "Is HTML a final form medium like PDF?" and the questions raised within

[11:08:03.0000] <gsnedders>
only limited to that?

[11:08:04.0000] <Hixie>
hendry: i don't understand the question.

[11:09:00.0000] <hendry>
Dave Raggett's post on public-html.

[11:09:01.0000] <hendry>
I don't quite understand the questioning either

[11:11:00.0000] <tylerr>
Morning all. **waves**

[11:11:01.0000] <bewest>
hendry: seems pretty hypothetical to me

[11:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[11:13:01.0000] <Hixie>
it wasn't really concrete enough for me to understand what he meant in practical terms

[11:14:00.0000] <bewest>
tantek would have a field day with that

[11:14:01.0000] <bewest>
hehe

[11:16:00.0000] <sayrer>
I think someone should post section 1 of HTML5 in bullet-point form, and claim that the requirements discussion is over

[11:17:00.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[11:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
you guys watching this #html-wg discussion?

[11:18:01.0000] <bewest>
oh

[11:18:02.0000] <bewest>
I forgot

[11:18:03.0000] <bewest>
irc.w3.org?

[11:19:00.0000] <Hixie>
irc.w3.org 6665 #html-wg

[11:19:01.0000] <bewest>
hmm do I need to authenticate?

[11:19:02.0000] <Hixie>
no

[11:19:03.0000] <bewest>
/me checks the port :-)

[11:20:00.0000] <bewest>
too many clients!

[11:20:01.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[11:20:02.0000] <bewest>
oh

[11:20:03.0000] <Hixie>
wait, too many clienths?

[11:20:04.0000] <bewest>
nm

[11:20:05.0000] <bewest>
my first analysis is always wrong

[11:20:06.0000] <bewest>
you'd think I wouldn't trust it after a while

[11:27:00.0000] <bewest>
gah that discussions seems like a waste of time

[11:30:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
bewest: indeed

[11:31:00.0000] <Hixie>
feel free to say so...

[11:33:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
i have quit html-wg

[11:36:00.0000] <bewest>
I wonder if this will typify the wg...

[11:50:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan_: did you leave the IRC channel or the whole WG?

[11:59:00.0000] <tylerr>
Hixie: I joined that room and no one was there. **pouts**

[11:59:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
oh, no the irc channel

[11:59:02.0000] <tylerr>
#html-wg

[11:59:03.0000] <tylerr>
doh

[11:59:04.0000] <tylerr>
wrong server

[11:59:05.0000] <tylerr>
:)

[12:58:00.0000] <annevk>
http://dean.edwards.name/weblog/2007/03/yet-another/

[13:00:00.0000] <Hixie>
wow if that's not proof that it should be called matchAll() and matchSingle() i don't know what is

[13:01:00.0000] <Lachy>
awesome!

[13:02:00.0000] <Lachy>
that's like the DOM script I wrote nearly 2 years ago, which I really needed to update.  Now I don't have to, I can use that :-)

[13:05:00.0000] <bewest>
whoah that looks nice

[13:05:01.0000] <bewest>
that will get me to switch from prototype.js

[13:05:02.0000] <sayrer>
lol

[13:21:00.0000] <Hixie>
it does look nice

[13:27:00.0000] <h3h>
Hixie: FWIW you probably want to update this page: http://code.google.com/webstats/

[13:27:01.0000] <h3h>
specifically, "We recommend Firefox 1.5."

[13:27:02.0000] <Hixie>
one day.

[13:37:00.0000] <tylerr>
I noticed that tutorials are needed for folks new to HTML, is the specification in a solid enough state to start writing some of these out?

[13:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
for some parts, e.g. <canvas>, yes.

[13:39:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
i've also been thinking about writing tuts

[13:39:01.0000] <met_>
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Canvas_tutorial ?

[13:39:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
both for people who already know html4/xhtml1, and for people completely new to html

[13:40:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
although that could be combined, so that people who know html4 can skip the first chapter

[13:40:01.0000] <tylerr>
/me nods.

[13:40:02.0000] <tylerr>
I was thinking the same.

[13:44:00.0000] <tylerr>
It's a bit too early for a book, but as more elements and such come forth, all these tutorials will make for excellent book material.

[13:45:00.0000] <tylerr>
Come forth meaning <canvas> et al.

[13:46:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
get implemented

[13:46:01.0000] <tylerr>
Right. My vocabulary is lacking today. **chuckles**

[13:47:00.0000] <tylerr>
I've got a large number of pages to fix today from an outsourced vendor, bleh!

[13:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: as far as i can tell, that guy's use case is dealt with using pattern="", not inputmode=""

[13:59:01.0000] <Hixie>
inputmode is more of a UI hint

[14:01:00.0000] <tylerr>
Here we go Hixie. http://futuremark.blogspot.com/

[14:01:01.0000] <tylerr>
Tutorials forthcoming.

[14:01:02.0000] <tylerr>
/me smiles.

[14:01:03.0000] <annevk>
makes sense

[14:01:04.0000] <annevk>
/me replied again with pattern=""

[14:24:00.0000] <zcorpan>
i wonder if babyruthcoming posted those threads manually

[14:27:00.0000] <zcorpan>
on the forum that is

[14:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
so there are two things that i've received feedback about that i'm thinking of adding to v1 of <video>

[14:41:01.0000] <Hixie>
one is an onended event

[14:41:02.0000] <Hixie>
the other is a way of adding cue marks

[14:41:03.0000] <Hixie>
cue marks being a way to say "at 21549ms, pause the video and send me an event telling me we're at cue 1"

[14:42:00.0000] <Hixie>
or "at 9292ms, send me a cue mark but continue playing the video"

[14:43:00.0000] <annevk>
are cue marks scripted?

[14:43:01.0000] <tylerr>
Those are good to have. I use those with QuickTime.

[14:43:02.0000] <annevk>
and why not use setTimeout?

[14:44:00.0000] <bewest>
are there guidelines for what successful tutorials look like?

[14:44:01.0000] <annevk>
bewest, 1000diggs

[14:44:02.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: lol

[14:44:03.0000] <bewest>
nice

[14:44:04.0000] <Hixie>
how would setTimeout work? the video might be paused, seeked, etc.

[14:44:05.0000] <Hixie>
tylerr: yeah lots of people have spoken about them

[14:44:06.0000] <tylerr>
bewest: Looks like we're going to have to create 999 Digg accounts.

[14:45:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, oh, duh

[14:45:01.0000] <bewest>
or any alexa rank better than http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?url=http://w3schools.com/

[14:45:02.0000] <bewest>
yeah I was curious about setTimeout

[14:45:03.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, still leaves the first question

[14:45:04.0000] <Hixie>
yes

[14:45:05.0000] <tylerr>
bewest: I created http://futuremark.blogspot.com/, I could add you as a contributor.

[14:45:06.0000] <Hixie>
you would do it scripted, at least in v1

[14:45:07.0000] <annevk>
k

[14:45:08.0000] <Hixie>
unless we want to change the video stream somehow

[14:45:09.0000] <bewest>
tylerr: nah.... I'm all talk ;-)

[14:45:10.0000] <tylerr>
Ah right right. :)

[14:46:00.0000] <bewest>
tylerr: (aka too many projects already)

[14:46:01.0000] <bewest>
although I wonder if a planetwebtutorial would be in order

[14:46:02.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, did you specifically search for <t:video or <something:video as well?

[14:47:00.0000] <tylerr>
bewest: I've gotten myself rather swamped as well outside of work. HTML-WG soon, WaSP Street Team, Microformats, the list goes on. :)

[14:47:01.0000] <bewest>
yes

[14:49:00.0000] <tylerr>
On top of all that, I'm trying to turn myself into the company evangelist on web standards and accessibility.

[14:49:01.0000] <bewest>
of course

[14:49:02.0000] <tylerr>
Needless to say, my life is booked... for life. ;)

[14:50:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: <t:video

[14:50:01.0000] <bewest>
be careful... you'll find people coming to ask you questions you have no clue about

[14:50:02.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: you found any <other:video ?

[14:50:03.0000] <tylerr>
bewest: Naturally. I'm happy to direct them to #web or #html. ;)

[14:50:04.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, no, but given that t is bound to a namespace that should be possible...

[14:50:05.0000] <annevk>
although I guess most people would copy and paste

[14:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
i wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't possible, but yeah.

[14:53:00.0000] <bewest>
Hixie: I don't think either of those features are required for v1

[14:53:01.0000] <annevk>
it should be possible, IE also allows inlining of SVG that way (in combination with the Adobe plugin)

[14:54:00.0000] <bewest>
setTimeout handlers can check to make sure playback was continuous, as long as the syncing is sane when playback is continuous

[14:54:01.0000] <annevk>
setTimeout can't ensure that

[14:54:02.0000] <bewest>
oh

[14:54:03.0000] <bewest>
I asked you earlier and you said it was

[14:54:04.0000] <annevk>
the video could hit a AUTO-PAUSED for instance

[14:54:05.0000] <annevk>
well, I forgot a few variables

[14:55:00.0000] <bewest>
no, I mean when playback is continuous

[14:55:01.0000] <annevk>
although in theory I suppose you can take that all into account and develop your own cue marks...

[14:55:02.0000] <annevk>
but they might be inaccurate

[14:55:03.0000] <bewest>
if other things happen, your handler can sniff those out

[14:55:04.0000] <bewest>
eg, you can create an object that deschedules things when those things happen

[14:55:05.0000] <annevk>
otoh, you can just check video.position every 50ms

[14:56:00.0000] <bewest>
it's kind of a pain but it is possible

[14:56:01.0000] <bewest>
so if v1 is about enabling and not perfecting, then I say leave it all out

[15:03:00.0000] <annevk>
/me would just concur

[15:03:01.0000] <annevk>
it's unlikely we update our experimental <video> implementation soonish anyway I think

[15:21:00.0000] <annevk>
/me wondered for a moment if MegaZone is a spammer

[15:21:01.0000] <Lachy_>
who's MegaZone?

[15:21:02.0000] <tylerr>
MegaZone?

[15:21:03.0000] <Lachy_>
on the blog, wiki or forum?

[15:21:04.0000] <annevk>
the list

[15:21:05.0000] <tylerr>
Ah nevermind, just got the e-mail. :)

[15:21:06.0000] <annevk>
but it appears it's for real

[15:21:07.0000] <zcorpan>
 wow, didn't know about ctrl+drag in tables in firefox

[15:22:00.0000] <Lachy_>
oh, me too :-)

[15:23:00.0000] <tylerr>
What the... that is an odd e-mail from MegaZone.

[15:23:01.0000] <tylerr>
And my mail filter doesn't work on him.

[15:24:00.0000] <annevk>
i meant that I don't think he's spamming

[15:24:01.0000] <tylerr>
/me nods

[15:24:02.0000] <tylerr>
I'm just confused as to why I got mail that was not sent to the list.

[15:25:00.0000] <Lachy_>
it was probably BCC'd for some reason

[15:26:00.0000] <tylerr>
/me nods. That's what I figure.

[15:26:01.0000] <Lachy_>
I wonder why the Sender is 'whatwg-bounces⊙wo'.  Is that from the moderation queue or something?

[15:28:00.0000] <annevk>
there shouldn't be such a thing

[15:28:01.0000] <annevk>
i mean, Hixie said he wouldn't pay attention to it

[15:30:00.0000] <annevk>
/me -> bed

[15:31:00.0000] <annevk>
g'night

[15:32:00.0000] <hasather>
good night annevk

[15:44:00.0000] <tylerr>
What do you all think of "one-a-days" as a way to introduce the elements of HTML5 to new and current web developers? Basically each day present a new blog entry covering a single element, with an overview/breakdown and example section.

[15:47:00.0000] <Lachy_>
tylerr: are you planning to write some articles like that?

[15:47:01.0000] <tylerr>
Aye Lachy_. I've gone and set up a blog already over at Blogger.

[15:47:02.0000] <Lachy_>
URI?

[15:48:00.0000] <tylerr>
http://futuremark.blogspot.com/

[15:48:01.0000] <tylerr>
Nothing as of yet. Just set it up an hour or so ago. :)

[15:48:02.0000] <Lachy_>
articles like that might be good to have on blog.whatwg.org

[15:49:00.0000] <zcorpan>
i guess it makes more sense to focus on features rather than elements, as some elements are rather boring and others don't do anything without combination of other elements, and some features don't have elements at all, etc

[15:49:01.0000] <zcorpan>
and some elements are overloaded, e.g. <input> 

[15:49:02.0000] <tylerr>
/me nods.

[15:50:00.0000] <tylerr>
Something to think about.

[15:51:00.0000] <zcorpan>
what i had in mind wrt writing a tut was to have one big tutorial that is updated as the spec envolves... so not quite blog-like

[15:51:01.0000] <tylerr>
That's an open blog right lachy_?

[15:51:02.0000] <tylerr>
Ah so like a wikitorial?

[15:52:00.0000] <zcorpan>
yeah

[15:52:01.0000] <tylerr>
That's a nifty idea.

[15:52:02.0000] <Lachy_>
tylerr: yes, anyone can register and post to that blog

[15:52:03.0000] <tylerr>
Lovely. Perhaps then I'll leave Futuremark to future endeavors. ;)

[15:53:00.0000] <tylerr>
And focus on doing the one-a-days on the blog.whatwg.com

[15:53:01.0000] <tylerr>
Err

[15:53:02.0000] <tylerr>
.org

[15:53:03.0000] <Lachy_>
if you want to start a tutorial, set it up on wiki.whatwg.org

[15:53:04.0000] <Lachy_>
in fact, that would be an interesting community project for all those people who write to me asking how they can help

[15:54:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Lachy_: yeah that's what i thought

[15:55:00.0000] <tylerr>
Lachy_: That would address the "Write tutorials for new authors and for authors moving to HTML5." and "Write articles about HTML5 on the blog" quite nicely.

[15:55:01.0000] <zcorpan>
the tutorial should be of two major parts, i think; one without any new features in html5 (for beginners) and one with only new features in html5 (for people who know html4)

[15:56:00.0000] <Lachy_>
it should be one tutorial.  It should just progress from beginner to advanced

[15:56:01.0000] <tylerr>
So a "List.4.01 -> List.5?" type of deal?

[15:58:00.0000] <tylerr>
Ah nevermind. I understand what you mean.

[15:58:01.0000] <Lachy_>
/me goes to set up /wiki/HTML5_Tutorial

[15:59:00.0000] <Lachy_>
http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML5_Tutorial

[16:00:00.0000] <bewest>
why should there be one?

[16:00:01.0000] <Lachy_>
why not?

[16:00:02.0000] <bewest>
not everyone writes or reads the same way

[16:00:03.0000] <zcorpan>
so?

[16:01:00.0000] <Lachy_>
this doesn't have to be the only tutorial, but there should be at least one somewhere

[16:01:01.0000] <bewest>
/wiki/tutorials/...

[16:01:02.0000] <Lachy_>
people need to learn HTML5

[16:01:03.0000] <bewest>
/me pipes down

[16:01:04.0000] <bewest>
yeah, looks good

[16:02:00.0000] <zcorpan>
tutorials will be written regardless, so we should set up a place where people can contribute and we can fix their misinformation ;)

[16:02:01.0000] <bewest>
yeah

[16:02:02.0000] <bewest>
good idea

[16:02:03.0000] <Lachy_>
bewest: I thought about setting up Category:Tutorial for that, but then there only needs to be one on this wiki.  We could set up a /Tutorials page that just catalogues all known tutorials on the web

[16:03:00.0000] <zcorpan>
or rather, all *good* tutorials on the web :)

[16:03:01.0000] <Lachy_>
We can list the bad ones too in the section called "Bad Tutorials" :-)

[16:04:00.0000] <bewest>
yeah

[16:04:01.0000] <bewest>
hehehe

[16:04:02.0000] <zcorpan>
oh yep, that's ok :)

[16:04:03.0000] <Lachy_>
w3schools would go in there ;-)

[16:04:04.0000] <bewest>
that's funny

[16:04:05.0000] <bewest>
yes

[16:04:06.0000] <bewest>
hehe

[16:04:07.0000] <bewest>
a planet style site would be interesting

[16:04:08.0000] <bewest>
provide search juice

[16:04:09.0000] <tylerr>
Lachy_: How might you categorize these one-a-days I'll be doing soon? Would they fall under Category:Element?

[16:05:00.0000] <Lachy_>
I thought they were blog entries, not wiki pages?

[16:05:01.0000] <tylerr>
Lachy_: Ah sorry, yes. That's what I mean. Would they fall under the already created category of element?

[16:05:02.0000] <tylerr>
Or should there be a custom category for them?

[16:06:00.0000] <Lachy_>
oh, you mean http://blog.whatwg.org/category/elements/ ?

[16:06:01.0000] <tylerr>
bewest: Something akin to a zen garden?

[16:06:02.0000] <tylerr>
Lachy_: Aye.

[16:06:03.0000] <bewest>
something akin to planetrdf or planetcherrypy but for web authoring tutorials

[16:06:04.0000] <tylerr>
Ahh

[16:07:00.0000] <Lachy_>
You can select multiple categories for each article, and you can create a new one if you like.  (if you need admin privilages to do that, just ask me to set it up)

[16:07:01.0000] <tylerr>
Perfect Lachy_, will do. I'll flesh out an article schedule tomorrow.

[16:07:02.0000] <tylerr>
I'd do it tonight but guests have decided to stay the evening.

[16:08:00.0000] <zcorpan>
tylerr: you could perhaps start with these features http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Implementations_in_Web_browsers

[16:08:01.0000] <tylerr>
zcorpan: Excellent! That would be lovely.

[16:09:00.0000] <tylerr>
Then move on to the others.

[16:09:01.0000] <tylerr>
Question, is this an up-to-date site?

[16:09:02.0000] <tylerr>
http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements

[16:11:00.0000] <tylerr>
If so, I've got 87 days of articles.

[16:11:01.0000] <tylerr>
/me smiles.

[16:12:00.0000] <Lachy_>
tylerr: that's why it's best to focus on features, rather than elements.  Also, not all features have elements.  Some are APIs, class names, rel, etc.

[16:12:01.0000] <zcorpan>
tylerr: it should be up to date. if you find anything that's incorrect please let me know :)

[16:12:02.0000] <tylerr>
Ah that's yours zcorpan, lovely!

[16:13:00.0000] <Lachy_>
and some elements might need more than one article.  e.g. all the <input type="..."> and other form contorls

[16:13:01.0000] <tylerr>
Lachy_: And a good point.

[16:13:02.0000] <tylerr>
I'll model it then on features as you suggest.

[16:14:00.0000] <tylerr>
Lists, tables, forms, quotes, etc.

[16:16:00.0000] <tylerr>
Right then.

[16:19:00.0000] <tylerr>
Would it be of benefit to have a section of the wiki that lists contributors/volunteers and what they're working on?

[16:25:00.0000] <Lachy_>
tylerr: you could list the project on the /What_you_can_do page, and then set up another page explaining how people can help out

[16:25:01.0000] <Lachy_>
http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/What_you_can_do

[16:26:00.0000] <tylerr>
Right right, so as a section below the initial list.

[16:27:00.0000] <Lachy_>
do it however you like.  It's your project!

[16:27:01.0000] <tylerr>
/me chuckles.

[16:28:00.0000] <tylerr>
Right then.

[16:30:00.0000] <tylerr>
Well folks, thanks for the good discussion today, I'm off till tomorrow.

[16:30:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
cya

[16:30:02.0000] <Lachy_>
cya later

[16:58:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: media stuff sent

[16:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
sweet


2007-03-22
[17:00:00.0000] <othermaciej>
now I have to read the backlog of old <video> feedback and read the spec more closely

[17:00:01.0000] <othermaciej>
fun, fun

[17:01:00.0000] <othermaciej>
not sure if I should start any additional threads just yet, or let people digest the proposal first

[17:02:00.0000] <othermaciej>
but I did want to comment on some specific points, like "why <audio>" and the issue of codecs

[17:02:01.0000] <Hixie>
i recommend reading the spec rather than the entire 200+ threads of feedback

[17:02:02.0000] <Hixie>
or at least first :-)

[17:03:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I skimmed it already

[17:04:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
from the list, reading hixie's replies should be sufficient i think

[17:04:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I mainly ready hixie's and howcome's messages

[17:04:02.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[17:04:03.0000] <Hixie>
my replies reply to all the other mails, so yeah, they should cover the salient points

[17:07:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: how would you like feedback on these proposals? (most of the suggested features are either already in the draft, or have been left out for specific reasons, or have been left out for simplicity's sake but are on the v2 list)

[17:08:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: well, I don't know what "v2" is

[17:08:01.0000] <bewest>
/me witholds snarky comments

[17:09:00.0000] <Hixie>
v2 features are the set of features that would be considered once v1 (the current <video> spec) is more widely implemented

[17:09:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: is "v2" post-HTML5, or "I'll get to this later"?

[17:09:02.0000] <Hixie>
depends on the rate of adoption. <canvas> for example is already on v2.

[17:09:03.0000] <Hixie>
(canvas has a bunch of features in the spec that weren't in the original spec)

[17:09:04.0000] <othermaciej>
cause we want to implement about this feature-set and then some, and would not find staging what is in the spec helpful

[17:10:00.0000] <othermaciej>
yeah, we haven't implemented most of the v2 things

[17:10:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I'm sure we will have feedback on it when we attempt that

[17:10:02.0000] <Dashiva>
Do you mark sections as v2, or is it just a vague label?

[17:10:03.0000] <Hixie>
thing is i fear that if we spec too much in one go, we'll lose the other browsers to lack of interoperability when they balk at the feature set and each do their own small parts

[17:11:00.0000] <othermaciej>
well, let's see what they actually say

[17:11:01.0000] <Hixie>
Dashiva: (for video, there's a list in the spec source (as a comment) listing the features to consider for v2)

[17:11:02.0000] <bewest>
it's also hard to respond to authors who aren't yet using it

[17:11:03.0000] <othermaciej>
many of these features are there to make it at least as good as the QuickTime plugin or Flash video for various uses

[17:11:04.0000] <Hixie>
Dashiva: (but in general we're looking -- zcorpan_ and Charl are implementing this -- at making the spec describe how well things are being implemented)

[17:11:05.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: sure

[17:12:00.0000] <othermaciej>
anyway, we can implement more stuff than is in the spec, but then we would have to keep our own spec for that

[17:12:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[17:12:02.0000] <Hixie>
i'm just scared of adding too much at once and seeing the whole thing be ignored by other vendors

[17:13:00.0000] <othermaciej>
well, we can ask the relevant people from Mozilla and Opera if a subset would be necessary and if so how to express it

[17:13:01.0000] <othermaciej>
(and Microsoft when/if this makes it to the HTML WG)

[17:14:00.0000] <othermaciej>
timed media is a complex area, unfortunately

[17:14:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me changes topic to 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'

[17:14:02.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[17:14:03.0000] <othermaciej>
but we do have a lot of experts in the area

[17:14:04.0000] <Dashiva>
We get to keep our patents now?

[17:14:05.0000] <othermaciej>
and if you want to speak to some of them in person that can probably be arranged too

[17:14:06.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: so does google ;-) (the current spec is based a lot on feedback from our various video groups)

[17:15:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Has anyone expressed concern with the openness of the video yet?

[17:17:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: well, I don't know of Google having anything comparable to QuickTime or Final Cut Pro or iMovie or iTunes, although of course YouTube and Google Video are very popular and important services to consider

[17:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
well, youtube video player, google video player, and google video ads player are all media players :-)

[17:18:01.0000] <Hixie>
but yes, google is more on the content side than the UA side

[17:18:02.0000] <Hixie>
both are important of course

[17:19:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I'm not saying it's required, but if you want to ever discuss in person, I can arrange it

[17:19:01.0000] <othermaciej>
that is all

[17:19:02.0000] <othermaciej>
up to you whether you avail yourself of the offer

[17:19:03.0000] <Hixie>
cool

[17:20:00.0000] <othermaciej>
we met a lot in person to hammer out the spec as-is, and many times it was more effective than email

[17:20:01.0000] <Hixie>
sure

[17:20:02.0000] <Hixie>
/me needs to work out how the proposal and the current spec differ before knowing whether he has anything to ask

[17:21:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I need to do that as well

[17:35:00.0000] <othermaciej>
it probably would have been more helpful to you if we'd posted it as suggested changes, but it would have taken a long time to rewrite it and it took way too long as it is

[17:35:01.0000] <Hixie>
no worries

[17:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
let me know if i miss anything when i reply, though

[17:37:00.0000] <othermaciej>
it's also probably not the highest quality in terms of formally correct spec language

[17:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
actually getting sample specs is no problem, the bigger problem is getting sample specs that try to cater for every little detail (i.e. sample specs that are actually proper specs), because then integrating the proposals with the "real" spec is a lot more work

[17:38:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
autoplay: "If the attribute is present, the user agent must begin playing the element as soon as it estimates that playback will not be interrupted to rebuffer.", that's something i didn't think about, just invoking play() ASAP would possibly result in the video being interrupted (unless play() also waits in the same way)

[17:38:02.0000] <Hixie>
so i'm actually happier when it's not formally correct language :-)

[17:38:03.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan_: play() works the same way, see the spec

[17:38:04.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan_: if there's not enough data, the UA will just switch to AUTO_PAUSED and wait

[17:38:05.0000] <zcorpan_>
ok

[17:39:00.0000] <othermaciej>
in our proposal, play() works when the element is playable at all, not when it estimates it will be able to play all the way through

[17:39:01.0000] <Hixie>
(or at least, it's allowed to)

[17:39:02.0000] <othermaciej>
(PLAYABLE vs. PLAYTHROUGHOK state)

[17:39:03.0000] <Hixie>
yeah maybe we could have a playForce() or something

[17:39:04.0000] <othermaciej>
I think that is how you expect a play button to work, so play() should in fact do that

[17:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
that's the best argument i've heard for autoplay="" so far

[17:40:01.0000] <othermaciej>
the one that only plays when you can get to the end would be the more obscure case, but you could just listen to the relevant event and call play()

[17:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[17:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'm confused about how the startTime/endTime and other interface things are supposed to interact with the equivalents in css

[17:43:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
"The height attribute on the element does not include the size of the controller, it is the size of the video element only." does this imply that the ui is above or below the element? what about width=""?

[17:43:02.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't think we wrote that up well enough but the intent is that the API is linked to presentational attributes which interact with CSS in the usual presentational attribute way

[17:44:00.0000] <othermaciej>
zcorpan_: same is intended to apply for width, the idea is just that it excludes the area of the controls

[17:44:01.0000] <othermaciej>
so you can size your video without worrying about how each UA might do the UI for controls

[17:44:02.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: so you can end up in situations where play() doesn't play because CSS is overriding it?

[17:44:03.0000] <Hixie>
that seems confusing

[17:44:04.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: adding play-state to CSS was a last-minute thing which I am not sure makes sense

[17:45:00.0000] <Hixie>
ah ok

[17:45:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I dunno if the whole design for how these things interacts works just yet, as I said, it was kind of a work in progress

[17:45:02.0000] <othermaciej>
apologies for things being somewhat sloppy

[17:45:03.0000] <Hixie>
no worries

[17:45:04.0000] <Hixie>
are currentRate and playRate both supposed to be mutable?

[17:47:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I think so, although it is a bit confused and I am not sure both are necessary

[17:47:01.0000] <othermaciej>
you can set currentRate to 2.0 and the video plays at double speed

[17:49:00.0000] <othermaciej>
but if playRate is still 1.0, then when you hit play()  you play at normal speed

[17:49:01.0000] <othermaciej>
(i.e. currentRate goes back to 1.0)

[17:49:02.0000] <Hixie>
sounds like something you'd want to implement on top of a simpler API... we don't want the API to be too biased towards a particular UI

[17:49:03.0000] <zcorpan_>
internet radio. an obvious use-case for <audio>. never thought about that before

[17:50:00.0000] <Hixie>
(same reason current spec doesn't have mute as well as volume)

[17:50:01.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan_: would you do internet radio by going to a web site in your browser?

[17:50:02.0000] <Hixie>
seems like you'd be better off doing that using a media player.

[17:50:03.0000] <othermaciej>
if you don't have mute as well as volume, you have to remember the old volume

[17:50:04.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: depends on the mute UI

[17:50:05.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: yes, i know lots of sites that offer internet radio in a popup via some plugin 

[17:50:06.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan_: freaky

[17:50:07.0000] <Hixie>
but interesting

[17:51:00.0000] <othermaciej>
well, at least some mute UIs leave volume control around while muted

[17:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
yup

[17:51:02.0000] <Hixie>
you can implement those on top of a simple volume attribute

[17:52:00.0000] <othermaciej>
you can, although that makes it hard for multiple controllers dealing with the element (one UI and one maybe something else) from working together without making special arrangements to handle mute

[17:53:00.0000] <othermaciej>
this is also the reason we added events for all the possible kinds of state changes

[17:53:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah the spec could do with more events, that i agree with

[17:53:02.0000] <Hixie>
onended and onvolumechange are things that we should add in v1, imho, i just haven't gotten around to it

[17:59:00.0000] <othermaciej>
hey KevinMarks 

[17:59:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
hello

[18:04:00.0000] <othermaciej>
/me is reading rfc4281 now, it's not exactly pretty syntax

[18:04:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah really

[18:04:02.0000] <othermaciej>
but at least it's unambiguous

[18:05:00.0000] <Hixie>
just sent a reply to your mail covering the main points

[18:05:01.0000] <Hixie>
at least, the main ones i saw

[18:06:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
dang, now I need ot reply to both of you...

[18:06:01.0000] <othermaciej>
that was quick

[18:06:02.0000] <Hixie>
i was basically idling waiting for your mail this afternoon :-)

[18:07:00.0000] <othermaciej>
sorry it took so long, approval can be a long process

[18:07:01.0000] <Hixie>
oh don't worry

[18:07:02.0000] <Hixie>
i did a bunch of administrivia stuff i've been waiting to have time to do

[18:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
hey hyatt

[18:10:01.0000] <dhyatt>
hi

[18:12:00.0000] <dhyatt>
"The "mute" feature is IMHO better left at the UI level, with the API 

[18:12:01.0000] <dhyatt>
  only having a single volume attribute. This is because there are 

[18:12:02.0000] <dhyatt>
  multiple ways to implement muting, and it seems better to not bias the 

[18:12:03.0000] <dhyatt>
  API towards a particular method."

[18:12:04.0000] <dhyatt>
i disagree

[18:12:05.0000] <dhyatt>
:)

[18:12:06.0000] <dhyatt>
here are some reasons:

[18:12:07.0000] <dhyatt>
(1) you may want to style controls or video differently when muted

[18:13:00.0000] <dhyatt>
(this is a distinct state from just having the volume turned all the way down)

[18:13:01.0000] <dhyatt>
(2) your volume control should not suddenly jump to 0 just because you are muted

[18:13:02.0000] <dhyatt>
(and forcing a volume control to have to account for muting and "lie" about its volume position seems suboptimal)

[18:17:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
agreed, fwiw

[18:17:01.0000] <Hixie>
i agree in the cases where your mute control actually does want to act independent of the volume

[18:17:02.0000] <othermaciej>
having a mute API also does not preclude having a mute-as-volume-0 UI

[18:17:03.0000] <Hixie>
but consider the case where your ui doesn't have a separate mute button

[18:17:04.0000] <othermaciej>
or a UI with no separate mute button

[18:17:05.0000] <Hixie>
and someone mutes it somehow (e.g. through the ua ui when fullscreen)

[18:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
you can no longer unmute, and the volume control has no effect

[18:18:01.0000] <Hixie>
but yeah, that seems weak

[18:18:02.0000] <othermaciej>
you could make a volume slider that always unmutes when you move it as well as changing volume

[18:18:03.0000] <dhyattDinner>
well having mute doesn't preclude someone from doinig muting using volume

[18:18:04.0000] <dhyattDinner>
but muting simplifies things

[18:18:05.0000] <Hixie>
yeah i think you guys have convinced me

[18:18:06.0000] <dhyattDinner>
if it's a separate state imo

[18:19:00.0000] <dhyattDinner>
ok going to stop leaving my cooking unattended

[18:19:01.0000] <dhyattDinner>
so i don't catch my kitchen on fire :)

[18:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
hehe

[18:24:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=467068#post3327983

[18:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok added video.muted to the spec

[18:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
should we just have 'volumechange', or should we have both 'volumechange' and 'mutechange'?

[18:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
(and why?)

[18:30:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
you could listen for mutechange and update the ui, otherwise you'd have to listen for volumechange and then check the muted state. dunno if that should warrant an event though

[18:32:00.0000] <Hixie>
maybe volumechange is better cos then you won't have people getting themselves into situations where their mute ui is the opposite of the actual state

[18:34:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: did you look at the open issues list btw? it has a lot more proposed features that we did not spec yet

[18:34:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: also curious to hear your thoughts about using CSS

[18:35:00.0000] <Hixie>
i looked at the open issues list but wasn't sure what to make of it (didn't look as closely as the spec proposal)

[18:35:01.0000] <Hixie>
not sure css makes sense for things you'd affect from the api

[18:35:02.0000] <Hixie>
not sure really

[18:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
hyatt had a good example of what you'd want css for the other day

[18:36:01.0000] <Hixie>
i forget what it was

[18:36:02.0000] <Lachy_>
it's easier to listen for one "volumechange" event and check the state of 2 variables, than to listen for 2 different events

[18:37:00.0000] <othermaciej>
stepping out for dinner, will be back

[18:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
any opera people here?

[18:45:00.0000] <Hixie>
i wonder if for CSS we can argue that the playback UI of a <video> counts as its "scrolling ui" and therefore doesn't contribute towards its height/width

[18:46:00.0000] <Lachy_>
Hixie, what do you mean by "scrolling ui"?

[18:47:00.0000] <Hixie>
scrollbars are considered exempt from the height/width

[18:47:01.0000] <Hixie>
they're like a type of padding

[18:47:02.0000] <Lachy_>
ok

[18:49:00.0000] <Lachy_>
so if I set this: video { height: 300px; width: 400px; } and then the UA adds 50px of UI to the bottom, then the video remains unaffected by that

[18:49:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah i'm wondering if we can get away with saying that

[18:49:02.0000] <Lachy_>
how does window.open() deal with the chrome issue?  Is width and height for that the viewport size or the window size?

[18:50:00.0000] <Hixie>
well mozilla seem to be against having a lot of these things in v1

[18:50:01.0000] <Hixie>
sigh

[18:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
looks like i might have to make two versions of the spec

[18:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
window.open() doesn't really deal with it well.

[18:51:02.0000] <Lachy_>
which things in v1 are they objecting to?

[18:51:03.0000] <Hixie>
<doublec>|I'd hope the first spec would just provide playing of videos, fast forward and rewind. Not farme by frame, declarative looping, etc

[18:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
(chris double is apparently the one who'd likely end up implementing this)

[18:52:01.0000] <Hixie>
roc said similar things

[18:52:02.0000] <Lachy_>
oh, so they want to remove all the APIs that actually make it useful?

[18:53:00.0000] <Hixie>
no

[18:53:01.0000] <Hixie>
they want, like i do, for the spec to grow at a steady race

[18:53:02.0000] <Hixie>
instead of throwing the kitchen sink in at v1

[18:53:03.0000] <Hixie>
and then hoping that all the browsers implement everything interoperably on their first try :-)

[18:53:04.0000] <Hixie>
problem is i presume that a lot of this will be far easier for safari to implement than for anyone else

[18:53:05.0000] <Lachy_>
yeah, I realise that, but there still needs to be something useful in v1

[18:54:00.0000] <Lachy_>
what advantage does safari have over the others?

[18:54:01.0000] <Hixie>
you don't think the current feature set is useful?

[18:54:02.0000] <Hixie>
apple own quicktime.

[18:55:00.0000] <Hixie>
anyway, dinner. bbl.

[18:55:01.0000] <Lachy_>
no, I think it is useful as it is.  If you took out some of the stuff, leaving just play, pause, stop, fast forward and rewind, that's not particularly useful

[18:58:00.0000] <om_food>
Hixie: is that really true in all cases? I don't think a CSS-sized <textarea> changes size when scrollbars appear

[19:16:00.0000] <othermaciej>
well, we never asked Mozilla to wait when they wanted to implement certain features faster than we did

[19:19:00.0000] <Lachy_>
hmm. I wonder if CSS could handle the size of the chrome vs. size of content using some pseudo elements.  e.g. video::chrome { height: x; } video { ... }

[19:20:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
i thought that, if you don't like the native ui, or want consistent ui across browsers, you'd script your own ui

[19:21:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
(you could still fallback to native ui without JS)

[19:21:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
so i don't see why there's a need to have any control over the native ui

[19:22:00.0000] <othermaciej>
the native UI could be different in each browser

[19:22:01.0000] <othermaciej>
it might be on the bottom, it might be on top, it might be on the side

[19:22:02.0000] <Lachy_>
yeah, that's the problem

[19:22:03.0000] <othermaciej>
or even stranger possibilities

[19:23:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
i don't see why it's a problem. if you modify it, it's not really native anymore. if you don't like it, fine, you can create your own. :)

[19:24:00.0000] <Lachy_>
yeah, true.

[19:25:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I do think you need the ability to set size of the video independent of the controls

[19:25:01.0000] <othermaciej>
(if any)

[19:25:02.0000] <othermaciej>
it would be nicer if CSS worked for that

[19:25:03.0000] <zcorpan_>
agree

[19:26:00.0000] <Lachy_>
yeah, I agree with that

[19:41:00.0000] <sayrer>
othermaciej: I think video features should be grouped into conformance classes. level1 for playback stuff, level2 for editing.

[19:45:00.0000] <othermaciej>
sayrer: I don't think anyone has yet proposed a feature set that would be sufficient for editing

[19:45:01.0000] <sayrer>
othermaciej: there are plenty proposed that are not needed for playback stuff

[19:46:00.0000] <othermaciej>
well, it depends on how fancy you want your playback to be

[19:46:01.0000] <othermaciej>
if you want full-featured playback of DVD content, say, then you need more than just basic controls

[19:47:00.0000] <sayrer>
"Start and end time are useful in case you want to package a bunch of small bits of video in one file and just play different segments"

[19:47:01.0000] <othermaciej>
yeah, that's if you have multiple bits of video in your site

[19:47:02.0000] <othermaciej>
can put them all in one file to save http round trips

[19:47:03.0000] <othermaciej>
similar to the way content authors pack up multiple images in one file

[19:47:04.0000] <sayrer>
yes, I know the trick

[19:48:00.0000] <sayrer>
it sounds like it wouldn't work as well for a linear format

[19:48:01.0000] <sayrer>
er, a time-based one

[19:48:02.0000] <sayrer>
since one will play after the next anyway

[19:49:00.0000] <sayrer>
"Or consider looping audio, or a single audio file with multiple sound effects."

[19:49:01.0000] <sayrer>
this is all squarepushing stuff

[19:50:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I gotta go

[19:50:01.0000] <othermaciej>
will be online later tonight

[19:50:02.0000] <othermaciej>
ciao

[19:52:00.0000] <karlUshi>
othermaciej: do you know Alexey Proskuryakov

[19:52:01.0000] <karlUshi>
oops just missed him ;)

[19:53:00.0000] <othermaciej>
karlUshi: yes

[19:53:01.0000] <karlUshi>
is he an employee of Apple?

[19:53:02.0000] <othermaciej>
later

[19:53:03.0000] <othermaciej>
not yet

[19:54:00.0000] <karlUshi>
ok thanks

[19:54:01.0000] <othermaciej>
ttyl

[20:40:00.0000] <sayrer>
it would be nice to get through a week without patent fud emails

[20:41:00.0000] <sayrer>
"it's not completely clear that there are no hamburgers on the moon"

[20:41:01.0000] <sayrer>
come on, prove a negative!

[20:43:00.0000] <Lachy_>
sayrer: which email are you talking about?

[20:44:00.0000] <sayrer>
Codecs (was Re: Apple Proposal for Timed Media Elements) 

[20:46:00.0000] <sayrer>
maybe we can start a whatwg-legal-discuss list for people who want to talk about that stuff

[20:56:00.0000] <billmason>
DanC made this comment in html-wg today:

[20:56:01.0000] <billmason>
14:49:35 [DanC]

[20:56:02.0000] <billmason>
    i.e. WHATWG brainstorms and designs, and then the HTML WG plays "defense", makes tests, worries a little about laywers, etc.

[20:57:00.0000] <billmason>
Maybe that would be applicable here.

[20:57:01.0000] <sayrer>
I don't care. I don't want to read about patents every week. so yeah, send it to the w3c

[21:19:00.0000] <dhyatt>
patents  are relevant to the discussion though (in some cases)

[21:21:00.0000] <sayrer>
send it to whatwg-legal

[21:54:00.0000] <Lachy_>
sayrer: I wasn't expecting you to actually set up whatwg-legal :-)

[22:41:00.0000] <othermaciej>
/me returns

[22:41:01.0000] <othermaciej>
karlUshi: Alexey is a WebKit open source contributor

[22:41:02.0000] <othermaciej>
his feedback on the topic of WebKit is likely to be accurate

[22:43:00.0000] <karlUshi>
thanks

[22:44:00.0000] <karlUshi>
He's applied to the HTML WG, I wanted to be sure he's not part of Apple, to help him to choose the right path for the application.

[22:44:01.0000] <karlUshi>
s/He's/He/

[22:45:00.0000] <othermaciej>
he is taking the correct path

[22:45:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I pointed WebKit contributors to the correct instructions for both employees and non-employees of a Member

[23:04:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: re earlier, i'm definitely not saying apple should slow down development, just that we might not need all the features you guys want :-) but i think i'll end up specifying a lot tomorrow anyway

[23:06:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: how are we going to track issues? there are a lot of differences between the two specs, now that I read yours more closely, and I'm not as comfortable as you in using my mail client as an issue tracker

[23:07:00.0000] <othermaciej>
even a wiki page would be better

[23:07:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: if you think any features are unneeded, you should point that out, and we can provide justification, but that seems like a "should we have this at all" question, not a "v1 vs v2" question

[23:08:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: fwiw I think all the features are quite reasonably implementable with any good media framework, probably Ogg included, though I have not studied its API

[23:08:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah like i said tomorrow i'm just gonna move the spec to v2 and add everything

[23:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
then we can work from there

[23:11:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh btw othermaciej i was thinking

[23:11:01.0000] <Hixie>
the problem with multiple levels of <video> fallback is that you don't know which one to use

[23:11:02.0000] <Hixie>
what would be better is something like:

[23:12:00.0000] <othermaciej>
ok, should I wait until you do that and then try to review for remaining differences, to determine which are on purpose?

[23:12:01.0000] <Hixie>
<video> <param src="a.ogg" codec="ogg"> <param src="a.mpg" codec="mpeg 4 baseline"> </video>

[23:12:02.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: sure, i'll try to list the differences i noticed too (though i might miss some of course)

[23:12:03.0000] <sayrer>
are there tags that work that way now?

[23:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
not really. it's a big source of troubles for <object>/<embed>, you always have to work out which one to talk to

[23:14:00.0000] <sayrer>
perhaps we should standardize things that are known to work. just my two cents.

[23:14:01.0000] <Hixie>
well that would exclude the multiple element fallback

[23:14:02.0000] <Hixie>
:-)

[23:14:03.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: interesting idea

[23:14:04.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: that would certainly be easier from an API pespective

[23:14:05.0000] <sayrer>
yeah, fallback has been tried many time afaik

[23:15:00.0000] <sayrer>
I guess another failed attempt won't matter much

[23:18:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: that would make it practical to add more attributes on the param to express other things like data rate, or to somehow tie into CSS media queries

[23:18:01.0000] <othermaciej>
w/o messing up the <video> and <audio> tags themselves

[23:18:02.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[23:18:03.0000] <Hixie>
i kinda like it

[23:19:00.0000] <dhyatt>
one argument for <audio> as its ow nt ag btw

[23:19:01.0000] <dhyatt>
is that having a different tag allows for different default intrinsic sizes

[23:19:02.0000] <dhyatt>
the UA can make better decisions without having to download a resource

[23:19:03.0000] <dhyatt>
to figure out what is going on

[23:19:04.0000] <othermaciej>
I like the MIME type w/ codec extension better than an add-hoc codec syntax though, because even though it is fugly it is already well-specified and will be extended for new codecs

[23:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
mime types for codecs are really not well specified as far as i know

[23:22:00.0000] <sayrer>
also it implies that implementors will follow the MIME registration rules

[23:22:01.0000] <sayrer>
but at least major browser vendors don't do that

[23:23:00.0000] <sayrer>
at least two

[23:23:01.0000] <sayrer>
so it seems kind of silly to go on pretending

[23:24:00.0000] <dhyatt>
/me is having an identity crisis

[23:24:01.0000] <karlUshi>
is there a way to associate different video elements together? 

[23:24:02.0000] <karlUshi>
I'm thinking about synchronized starting

[23:25:00.0000] <karlUshi>
when for example two cameras on a same event and you want both of them synchronized

[23:25:01.0000] <karlUshi>
or if you want to make a side by side comparison.

[23:26:00.0000] <karlUshi>
http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/REC-SMIL2-20051213/smil-timing.html#Timing-ParSyntax

[23:27:00.0000] <karlUshi>
par

[23:27:01.0000] <karlUshi>
    A par container, short for "parallel", defines a simple time grouping in which multiple elements can play back at the same time. 

[23:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: do you have reference for the parameters for mime types and stuff?

[23:28:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4281

[23:28:02.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: it's linked from http://webkit.org/specs/HTML_Timed_Media_Elements.html

[23:29:00.0000] <othermaciej>
note that you need to specify the container format, not just the codec (technically the container format is not a codec, but the main mime type already says what it is)

[23:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[23:31:00.0000] <Hixie>
(thanks for the reference)

[23:31:01.0000] <othermaciej>
that was one of the exciting things I learned from Apple's media folks

[23:32:00.0000] <othermaciej>
other things I can't unread include a description of smpte-drop-30, followed by realization that it's not such a good idea to use it to specify times

[23:32:01.0000] <sayrer>
looks like that only applies to 3gpp formats?

[23:33:00.0000] <othermaciej>
sayrer: "This parameter MAY be specified for use with additional MIME media types."

[23:33:01.0000] <sayrer>
of course it may

[23:34:00.0000] <sayrer>
it may even be specified with different syntax rules

[23:34:01.0000] <sayrer>
since each MIME type determines its own parameters

[23:35:00.0000] <othermaciej>
sayrer: 3GPP is based on the MP4 container format

[23:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
jesus, this rfc 4281 thing is complicated

[23:37:01.0000] <Hixie>
but ok

[23:38:00.0000] <othermaciej>
3GPP is basically MPEG-4 limited to a reasonable subset of codecs

[23:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
hi don't get the codecs*= thing

[23:39:01.0000] <Hixie>
er

[23:39:02.0000] <Hixie>
s/hi//

[23:39:03.0000] <Hixie>
that is, s/hi/i/

[23:39:04.0000] <othermaciej>
I can talk to Dave Singer about improving this if need be, or for clarification

[23:39:05.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't get the * either

[23:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
where do we get these magic values from

[23:40:01.0000] <othermaciej>
ah, it's some lame MIME legalism

[23:40:02.0000] <sayrer>
I have actually unpacked 3gpp video from my nokia before. still don't see why we would standardize it.

[23:40:03.0000] <othermaciej>
apparently it defers to the MP4 Registration Authority

[23:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
well if you guys are happy with it

[23:41:01.0000] <othermaciej>
for the ISO Base Media File Format (which is the MPEG-4 container format, extra-fancy name)

[23:41:02.0000] <Hixie>
i just have to refer to it

[23:41:03.0000] <Hixie>
so it's no skin off my back

[23:41:04.0000] <othermaciej>
actually no one here loves it, but it's kind of a standard

[23:41:05.0000] <Hixie>
are we ok with just reusing <param> with different attributes or do we want some other element?

[23:41:06.0000] <othermaciej>
I will have to inquire about it some more

[23:42:00.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie, is there an example of "v2" stuff in the spec now?

[23:43:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: I think either is fine, the use is somewhat analogous, though in other ways different

[23:44:00.0000] <othermaciej>
or more accurately I would say "no strong opinion"

[23:45:00.0000] <dhyatt>
what is the allure of theora over mpeg?

[23:45:01.0000] <othermaciej>
it is claimed to be patent-safe

[23:46:00.0000] <othermaciej>
the company that developed it donated all the patents they had on it themselves as royalty-free for use with it

[23:46:01.0000] <dhyatt>
and mpeg isn't? isn't mpeg used by tons of companies?

[23:46:02.0000] <sayrer>
well, it is royalty free right now

[23:46:03.0000] <sayrer>
and mpeg requires royalties

[23:46:04.0000] <othermaciej>
mpeg has patents that cost money to license

[23:46:05.0000] <dhyatt>
ah

[23:47:00.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: not now

[23:47:01.0000] <dhyatt>
so if opera or mozilla implemented support for mpeg natively they would have to pay somebody?

[23:47:02.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: tomorrow :-)

[23:47:03.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[23:47:04.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie: ok

[23:47:05.0000] <sayrer>
dyatt: mpeg money goes to Fraunhoffer (sp?) and some others now

[23:48:00.0000] <othermaciej>
H.264 actually has open source implementations

[23:48:01.0000] <dhyatt>
that ponied up the money already or something?

[23:48:02.0000] <othermaciej>
but it's unclear what the legal status is there

[23:48:03.0000] <dhyatt>
ok i get it now

[23:48:04.0000] <sayrer>
but open source isn't the interesting part, it's disribution that makes it tough

[23:48:05.0000] <Hixie>
dhyatt: and if debian wants to ship it, they can't, because their users are supposed to be allowed to redistribute, but they wouldn't be allowed to in a licensed regime

[23:48:06.0000] <dhyatt>
seems bad to have to pay money just to support <video>

[23:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[23:49:01.0000] <Hixie>
that's why people want to support theora instead

[23:49:02.0000] <Hixie>
it's a tough one

[23:49:03.0000] <dhyatt>
ok i get it

[23:49:04.0000] <othermaciej>
the patent situation with video is a tough one

[23:49:05.0000] <Hixie>
of course for a company like apple or google, who has already paid MPEG-LA for the right to use MPEG4, it's actually safer to use MPEG

[23:49:06.0000] <dhyatt>
right

[23:49:07.0000] <dhyatt>
since theora is kind of an unknown

[23:49:08.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[23:49:09.0000] <othermaciej>
thus the lack of consensus

[23:50:00.0000] <dhyatt>
how greedy is mpeg

[23:50:01.0000] <sayrer>
do Apple and Google have to pay Forgent?

[23:50:02.0000] <Hixie>
dhyatt: no idea

[23:50:03.0000] <othermaciej>
I think they have a sliding scale

[23:50:04.0000] <dhyatt>
i wonder if they would be moved by the desire for this to be the video standard on the web

[23:50:05.0000] <dhyatt>
i guess not

[23:50:06.0000] <othermaciej>
sayrer: you sure talk about patents a lot for someone who doesn't want to hear about them

[23:51:00.0000] <sayrer>
I don't mind talking about them. I don't like sending them to WG lists.

[23:52:00.0000] <sayrer>
it's part of reality, but you don't want to open up a technical mailing list to all of reality

[23:52:01.0000] <sayrer>
you will never get anything done

[23:52:02.0000] <othermaciej>
so you don't want patent discussion on the mailing list, but on IRC it's ok?

[23:52:03.0000] <sayrer>
I don't want technical proposals to start with a discussion of patents

[23:53:00.0000] <othermaciej>
well, video is a special case

[23:53:01.0000] <sayrer>
it comes down to it in the end, as we have seen over in the w3c

[23:53:02.0000] <Hixie>
so according to http://www.mpegla.com/avc/AVC_TermsSummary.pdf it seems that random joe with a mildly popular web site would have to pay $2500 per year to code his videos using MPEG4

[23:53:03.0000] <Hixie>
but i could be misreading it

[23:54:00.0000] <sayrer>
and here we have Microsoft paying Alcatel-Lucent 1.2 Billion for two submarine patents on mp3 just last week

[23:54:01.0000] <sayrer>
1.52 billion, sorry

[23:54:02.0000] <sayrer>
http://animators.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=114856

[23:54:03.0000] <Hixie>
mp3 = MPEG 1 Layer 3

[23:55:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: see Internet Broadcast

[23:55:01.0000] <sayrer>
this all sucks so badly. :/

[23:55:02.0000] <Hixie>
it looks like browser vendors would also have to pay about $0.20 per seat

[23:56:00.0000] <Hixie>
but never more than $4.25 million a year

[23:56:01.0000] <Hixie>
this doesn't seem to handle free software distribution

[23:56:02.0000] <Hixie>
where each person is a distributor

[23:56:03.0000] <othermaciej>
0-100,000 unitls are free

[23:57:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah but debian has more than 100,000 downloads

[23:57:01.0000] <Hixie>
although this summary says "sold"

[23:57:02.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't know how much MPEG-LA can be convinced to change things, or how they would think of this applying to free software

[23:57:03.0000] <sayrer>
hmm, is this even gpl/lgpl compatible?

[23:57:04.0000] <Hixie>
gpl doesn't mention patents

[23:57:05.0000] <othermaciej>
Apple has contacts there, I can ask for more research/clarification

[23:57:06.0000] <Hixie>
(it's not mpl compatible though as far as i can tell)

[23:58:00.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie: both mention patents

[23:58:01.0000] <Hixie>
gpl doesn't.

[23:58:02.0000] <Hixie>
that's why they're doing gpl3.

[23:58:03.0000] <Hixie>
iirc

[23:58:04.0000] <Hixie>
could be wrong

[23:59:00.0000] <sayrer>
section 7 has something about it

[23:59:01.0000] <sayrer>
I don't claim to understand it

[23:59:02.0000] <Hixie>
ah

[23:59:03.0000] <Hixie>
anyway

[23:59:04.0000] <Hixie>
bbl

[00:21:00.0000] <hsivonen>
dhyatt: MPEG-LA is so greedy that Apple was unable to negotiate a blanket license for MPEG-4 on behalf of its users even after making a big deal about it publicly

[00:21:01.0000] <dhyatt>
hsivonen: :(

[00:24:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I believe that the way the open source implementations work is that the implementors are in Sweden and Hungary and then Google pays MPEG-LA and does not distribute the software further so by using it privately they don't invoke the patent clause of the GPL. (but IANAL)

[00:25:00.0000] <sayrer>
hsivonen: but that would suck for browser distributions, in your NAL analysis, right?

[00:26:00.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: it would suck big time. moreover, it would be incompatible with the Mozilla and WebKit licensing scheme in the U.S.

[00:27:00.0000] <sayrer>
that's what I thought from reading the FSF stuff, but I don't understand software licensing very well

[00:27:01.0000] <othermaciej>
including the source in the same binary would, linking to a binary (under whatever terms) wouldn't violate the LGPL afaict

[00:28:00.0000] <othermaciej>
(insert usual IANAL disclaimer)

[00:28:01.0000] <othermaciej>
hi annevk!

[00:28:02.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: yeah. MPEG-4 is already supported through the quicktime plug-in

[00:31:00.0000] <sayrer>
yeah, but then it gets tricky if the entire device is closed source

[00:42:00.0000] <othermaciej>
wow, my blog post about Apple joining the HTML WG seems to be getting more news attention than the W3C's original press release about it

[00:43:00.0000] <sayrer>
it is cool that you are inviting more people in

[00:46:00.0000] <annevk>
/me reads the Apple <video> proposal

[00:54:00.0000] <annevk>
/me wonders why there's need for a Video() constructor

[00:55:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I'm not sure there is, but you could use it for preloading like Image()

[00:55:01.0000] <othermaciej>
(didn't notice that crept in there)

[00:58:00.0000] <Lachy>
ha! "fair, reasonable, non-discriminatory access..." on the MPEG LA home page :-)  They seem to be totally unfair, and discriminate against everyone who can't afford their unreasonable licence fees!

[01:06:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: RAND usually is neither reasonable nor non-discriminatory

[01:07:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: I think the fee for the algorithm is not their most unreasonable demand. the demand for money when you copy the bits produced by the algorithm is

[01:07:01.0000] <othermaciej>
sadly the A/V standards world has very different cultural norms for patents than the web standards world

[01:07:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: so basically they want money if you have deep pockets and you want to run cp on bytes they think they own

[01:08:00.0000] <Lachy>
does that mean someone technically isn't allowed to publish an MPEG4 encoded video on the web without paying?

[01:08:01.0000] <othermaciej>
http://www.mpegla.com/avc/AVC_TermsSummary.pdf

[01:09:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: if the someone is wealthy enough to go over the threshold that makes MPEG-LA care, then the someone has risk

[01:09:01.0000] <Lachy>
/me reads

[01:10:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: it is up to lawyers to assess is the risk is reality-based and whether paying the hush money is cheaper that defending in court in case MPEG-LA believes they have a case to enforce

[01:15:00.0000] <Lachy>
hmm. If I read that correctly (though I didn't understand most of it) I'd have to pay to publish a video longer than 12 minutes

[01:18:00.0000] <annevk>
The CSS proposal looks the least interesting

[01:18:01.0000] <sayrer>
MPEG-LA

[01:19:00.0000] <sayrer>
What's Not To Like?

[01:19:01.0000] <othermaciej>
we tried to put the presentational aspects in CSS, particularly things that could apply to other elements like <img> showing an animated GIF or <marquee>

[01:22:00.0000] <hsivonen>
FWIW, last time I checked, the managers of the AAC patent pool were much more reasonable about decoder licenses than the managers of the AVC patent pool. but that probably does not help enough

[01:24:00.0000] <hsivonen>
besides, it is claimed that Vorbis in technically on par with AAC

[01:24:01.0000] <hsivonen>
too bad Theora is technically on par with H.264

[01:26:00.0000] <othermaciej>
you mean "isn't" in the last bit I assume

[01:26:01.0000] <annevk>
hmm, I'm mentioned on http://womengeeks.com/

[01:26:02.0000] <othermaciej>
heh

[01:26:03.0000] <othermaciej>
annevk: I get that sort of thing myself at times, though not as much as you I bet

[01:26:04.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: do. yes, I meant "isn't"

[01:27:00.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: why do you get it?

[01:27:01.0000] <othermaciej>
"Maciej" is not a common name anywhere but in Poland, so people don't know what it is, and sometimes assume it is "Macie J" or something like that

[01:27:02.0000] <hsivonen>
oh

[01:28:00.0000] <annevk>
It's amazing how many people still believe in content negotiation

[01:28:01.0000] <annevk>
Especially considering that it doesn't actually work most of the time

[01:28:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Maciej is like Matthew, right?

[01:28:03.0000] <othermaciej>
well, sort of

[01:29:00.0000] <othermaciej>
there is also the name "Mateusz"

[01:29:01.0000] <Lachy>
othermaciej, you're a male?  Wow, I guessed wrongly too :-)

[01:29:02.0000] <othermaciej>
Lachy: you're kidding, right?

[01:29:03.0000] <Lachy>
no, I had no idea

[01:30:00.0000] <othermaciej>
heh

[01:30:01.0000] <Lachy>
don't feel bad, I assumed the same with hsivonen and annevk initially too!

[01:30:02.0000] <krijnh>
Now we know what W3C FTF's are for ;)

[01:30:03.0000] <hsivonen>
there are enough famous Frenchmen with my first name, even though in general English-speakers tend to think that Finnish men whose name ends with an 'i' are women

[01:30:04.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: whoa!

[01:31:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I never would have thought Henri would be a woman's name

[01:32:00.0000] <annevk>
lol

[01:32:01.0000] <Lachy>
Henry normally ends with a 'y' where I come from, so I assumed Henri was the female alternative

[01:33:00.0000] <othermaciej>
anyway "Maciej" is kind of an old slavic name, though claimed cognate with Czech Matej and supposedly analogous to Matthew, but I think that is a retroactive decision

[01:33:01.0000] <othermaciej>
"Mateusz" is more clearly derived from the same root as Matthew but often translated as "Mathias"

[01:34:00.0000] <annevk>
i see an obvious usecase for <name sex=male|female>

[01:34:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: in Finland 'Henry' has an sv-FI connotation

[01:35:00.0000] <Lachy>
what's sv-FI?

[01:35:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: Swedish spoken in Finland

[01:35:02.0000] <Lachy>
ok

[01:40:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I know a lot of Finnish men whose names end in "i" but also a bunch of French Henris

[02:18:00.0000] <krijnh>
Regarding the irc logs

[02:19:00.0000] <krijnh>
People can now flag important lines by double clicking

[02:19:01.0000] <krijnh>
And unflag by double clicking again

[02:23:00.0000] <Lachy>
where's whatbot gone? krijnh are you using a different name for your bot?

[02:23:01.0000] <krijnh>
Lachy: I don't know, I think Charl dropped it

[02:24:00.0000] <krijnh>
Lachy: I'm not using a bot

[02:24:01.0000] <annevk>
he is the bot

[02:24:02.0000] <krijnh>
*bleep*

[02:24:03.0000] <Lachy>
I thought you were since the logs are on your site

[02:24:04.0000] <Charl>
Lachy: whatbot is dead :) R.I.P. :)

[02:25:00.0000] <krijnh>
Lachy: My client is just logging files which I parse again

[02:25:01.0000] <Lachy>
oh, ok.

[02:26:00.0000] <krijnh>
I still have to fix whatbots archive though

[02:27:00.0000] <annevk>
yeah

[02:27:01.0000] <annevk>
it should redirect too

[02:28:00.0000] <Lachy>
yeah, it's easier to remember and type whatbot.charlvn.za.net, then remember how to spell krijnh's domain name

[02:28:01.0000] <krijnh>
:(

[02:28:02.0000] <Lachy>
I can't even figure out how to pronounce it

[02:29:00.0000] <krijnh>
Yeah, I had that problem in the USA as well

[02:29:01.0000] <annevk>
why can't krijnh get a subdomain on whatwg.org ?

[02:29:02.0000] <krijnh>
Just say 'John' :)

[02:29:03.0000] <annevk>
irclogs.whatwg.org

[02:29:04.0000] <krijnh>
And let that redirect to me

[02:29:05.0000] <krijnh>
Or something

[02:29:06.0000] <annevk>
or you just get access to it...

[02:29:07.0000] <Lachy>
what the?  Is that really close to what it sounds like, or is that just an alternative you use?

[02:29:08.0000] <annevk>
that's fairly trivial with dreamhost

[02:29:09.0000] <krijnh>
annevk: I can't run my irc client on that server I guess :]

[02:29:10.0000] <krijnh>
krijnhoetmer.nl is in my LAN

[02:29:11.0000] <annevk>
Lachy, lol

[02:30:00.0000] <krijnh>
Lachy: what do you think? ;)

[02:30:01.0000] <Lachy>
hey, don't laugh.  well, I was surprised when I found out Hakon was pronounce howcome!

[02:30:02.0000] <annevk>
krijnh, I'm not talking about a server, just about a domain

[02:30:03.0000] <krijnh>
Lachy: me too

[02:30:04.0000] <krijnh>
annevk: Ah, k

[02:31:00.0000] <annevk>
Lachy, it's not really howcome though

[02:31:01.0000] <Lachy>
I know, I read that. But I couldn't find anything that described the accurate pronunciation

[02:31:02.0000] <krijnh>
Lachy: my name sounds like a combination of 'crane' and 'crying' btw

[02:31:03.0000] <annevk>
hoh-con maybe

[02:32:00.0000] <icaaq>
/me sounds like I suck (aka isac)

[02:32:01.0000] <annevk>
:p

[02:33:00.0000] <Lachy>
oh, I thought icaaq was like ick-ark or something.

[02:34:00.0000] <Lachy>
so you pronounce 'c' like 's' for some strange reason

[02:34:01.0000] <krijnh>
Like in ice :)

[02:34:02.0000] <krijnh>
Strange

[02:34:03.0000] <othermaciej>
jeez, don't any web standards people have normal names?

[02:34:04.0000] <krijnh>
Molly, Chris, Dean

[02:34:05.0000] <annevk>
Ian

[02:35:00.0000] <Lachy>
othermaciej,  Ian, Matthew, and several others!

[02:35:01.0000] <icaaq>
it started when i got my first icq and I just added two a's icaaq

[02:35:02.0000] <krijnh>
What has Ian to do with standards? :|

[02:36:00.0000] <icaaq>
Lachy: Yes and q like k

[02:36:01.0000] <Lachy>
krijnh, maybe Ian Hickson

[02:36:02.0000] <krijnh>
;)

[02:43:00.0000] <krijnh>
Okay, enough irc logs stuff for today

[02:43:01.0000] <krijnh>
Work

[02:46:00.0000] <krijnh>
annevk: btw, change your copyright line to 2003-2007

[02:48:00.0000] <annevk>
done

[02:48:01.0000] <krijnh>
:)

[02:49:00.0000] <annevk>
remind me in 2008 please

[02:49:01.0000] <krijnh>
date('Y')

[02:49:02.0000] <Lachy>
annevk, you could just remove it, then you won't need to up date it

[02:49:03.0000] <krijnh>
Or that

[02:49:04.0000] <Lachy>
/me thinks copyright notices are silly

[03:19:00.0000] <Dashiva>
copyright then-now

[03:31:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
evening

[03:32:00.0000] <annevk>
morning

[03:32:01.0000] <Lachy>
good e-day :-)

[03:40:00.0000] <virtuelv>
/me looks at Apple's video fallback proposal

[04:08:00.0000] <Lachy>
in Apple's <video> proposal, does anyone else think availabledurationchange event seems like a progress event?

[04:09:00.0000] <Lachy>
it seems a bit redundant to me

[04:10:00.0000] <annevk>
it's different from a progress event

[04:10:01.0000] <annevk>
Content-Length is not equal to the duration...

[04:10:02.0000] <Lachy>
yeah, true

[04:11:00.0000] <annevk>
it'd be good to have usecases instead of a spec

[04:11:01.0000] <virtuelv>
Lachy: looks more like something for cuemarks, but I might be wrong

[04:11:02.0000] <Lachy>
ok

[04:19:00.0000] <annevk>
<keygen> should prolly be added to HTML5...

[04:20:00.0000] <annevk>
but I think I already said that once on the list...

[04:20:01.0000] <virtuelv>
annevk: the old Netscape thing noone ever used?

[04:21:00.0000] <annevk>
sites rely on it

[04:21:01.0000] <annevk>
(it's also in Mozilla)

[04:21:02.0000] <annevk>
for IE they use some ActiveX control

[04:22:00.0000] <Lachy>
annevk, have you found any documentation that describes exactly what it does and how to use it?  There seems to be very little information about it, which is why it hasn't been added

[04:23:00.0000] <Lachy>
it isn't supported by IE either, so browsers really don't need to support it to be compatible with the web

[04:24:00.0000] <annevk>
Lachy, ever heard of sniffing?

[04:24:01.0000] <annevk>
Lachy, Skandiabanken relies on it for instance

[04:24:02.0000] <Lachy>
what is that site?

[04:24:03.0000] <Lachy>
a bank?

[04:25:00.0000] <annevk>
I think so. (This information was passed to me.)

[04:25:01.0000] <Lachy>
there's still the problem of figuring out exactly what it does, how it works and how to use it

[04:28:00.0000] <annevk>
yup

[04:28:01.0000] <annevk>
but that should be doable

[04:29:00.0000] <Lachy>
aren't https and TLS better solutions for whatever its usecases are?

[04:32:00.0000] <annevk>
i don't think so

[04:32:01.0000] <Lachy>
then what does it do?  I thought it was to provide some sort of encryption and security

[04:33:00.0000] <annevk>
it generates a key I believe...

[04:33:01.0000] <Lachy>
for what purpose?

[04:33:02.0000] <Lachy>
what good is a key if it doesn't fit into any locks?

[04:33:03.0000] <annevk>
as I said, I'm not up in the details of what exactly it does

[04:33:04.0000] <annevk>
i just know it's needed

[04:33:05.0000] <Lachy>
for one site?  I don't think so

[04:35:00.0000] <annevk>
i would assume more sites use it

[04:35:01.0000] <annevk>
it's not that we added it just for them...

[04:35:02.0000] <Lachy>
does Opera support it?

[04:36:00.0000] <annevk>
yes, Opera and Firefox and maybe Safari

[04:36:01.0000] <Lachy>
oh, then whoever implemented it there should be able to provide some description of what it does and how it works

[04:37:00.0000] <annevk>
when you submit a form that contains it it starts an async process that generates a key

[04:37:01.0000] <annevk>
in firefox it's just that and in Opera you can encrypt this key using a master password

[04:38:00.0000] <Lachy>
I have a general idea of what happens on the client side before form submission.  It's just that I do not understand what use it is to the server or the client afterwards

[04:38:01.0000] <annevk>
http://webdesign.about.com/od/htmltags/p/bltags_keygen.htm

[04:39:00.0000] <annevk>
so Safari supports it as well

[04:42:00.0000] <Lachy>
so presumably, servers are supposed to be able to encrypt data using that public key and send it back to the browser

[04:43:00.0000] <annevk>
in WebKit it subclasses the <select> element

[04:45:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
annevk - <keygen> and browser support for it sounds potentially very useful to me

[04:45:01.0000] <MikeSmith>
is it meant for client-side signing of data/documents?

[04:46:00.0000] <annevk>
the usecase isn't entirely clear to me

[04:46:01.0000] <MikeSmith>
well, the lack of a standard mechanism for digital signing in browsers is on thing that causes browser lock-in in some places

[04:46:02.0000] <annevk>
i just know it's supported in some form of interop between Safari / Firefox / Opera

[04:46:03.0000] <MikeSmith>
in Korea, for example

[04:46:04.0000] <MikeSmith>
annevk - OK

[04:48:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
anway, Korean banks and government sites use digital signing quite a lot, but they rely on an ActiveX control for doing it

[04:48:01.0000] <MikeSmith>
without any fallback or alternative mechanism for other browsers

[04:48:02.0000] <annevk>
http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2005-November/thread.html#5092

[04:48:03.0000] <annevk>
MikeSmith, I see, I guess that might indeed be the usecase for <keygen> ...

[04:49:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
annevk - maybe

[04:50:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
I just glanced at the old Netscape docs you cited and it's not really clear from those what the use case is meant to me

[04:50:01.0000] <MikeSmith>
to be

[04:50:02.0000] <Lachy>
if that's its usecase, and it actually works like that, then it could be useful.  But there's not much point discussing it till we find out exactly how it's supposed to work.

[04:51:00.0000] <Lachy>
=MIICQTCCASkwggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQC5weCgMUZ+IugwXGeOr1xspUaqrTTEjPurmS37XEBn1BFEMQ4TvmY20BsVwo674QoVfpx0ko2JVS33VBBkEDGCo551ZZiWfGQWVeiePU0kggUdw9QeVC+hB5vZZqOc+ie+UjwpzekoyPWOk2mmQXBaEHRpz0cG9rPsz/e33bIyRbZNZ0Y089HzWlqWnDZYB/P+kg43SsdZzeXhm1O6ejUH6ZN3ot/wAgBxRIgVoI8njGjUE6sTUeBAHdsxLRk5zI4MGj5Q2dWh+eViZX9HTag6AEQ9hw1xi4kji180H9m8EVi/zBsyY9IHfXq+KE6hZTpv2U2EHsYRzfsIYoOQrf9HAgMBAAEWAQAwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQADggEBAC8iywKI6Q

[04:51:01.0000] <Lachy>
HcgtHAmJnQS9kqbOUqrl+fHclQkiS1BxMhKk6HSN9D0Sz6Wjk9GGm26gU9m5+nToJc4i6169FOl+CWQMjaaBpxjhnUS90iWORS4G2xVZP5At5V2gC3I+jDKrpA7m+pI6i/tRYlDREWI97k9aGBErE+WdcJ4SjCV9lQLxRMr98h+jeZwzsnga51RzhKYKlr+bcuUEc0BIy5zc/MWi7CC8ghbZTCjnwut+1fv4s5DJdvLm51jjWpXE7y1waQmjJG+P83b3u5Rar0WMdjVhZAaNyeYZS2qyxSrSx6nQQ+KM/qPxtmWex8k24Kibelo5b0e42mRK82lk0s3MQ=

[04:51:02.0000] <Lachy>
=MIICQTCCASkwggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQC5weCgMUZ+IugwXGeOr1xspUaqrTTEjPurmS37XEBn1BFEMQ4TvmY20BsVwo674QoVfpx0ko2JVS33VBBkEDGCo551ZZiWfGQWVeiePU0kggUdw9QeVC+hB5vZZqOc+ie+UjwpzekoyPWOk2mmQXBaEHRpz0cG9rPsz/e33bIyRbZNZ0Y089HzWlqWnDZYB/P+kg43SsdZzeXhm1O6ejUH6ZN3ot/wAgBxRIgVoI8njGjUE6sTUeBAHdsxLRk5zI4MGj5Q2dWh+eViZX9HTag6AEQ9hw1xi4kji180H9m8EVi/zBsyY9IHfXq+KE6hZTpv2U2EHsYRzfsIYoOQrf9HAgMBAAEWAQAwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQADggEBAC8iywKI6Q

[04:51:03.0000] <Lachy>
HcgtHAmJnQS9kqbOUqrl+fHclQkiS1BxMhKk6HSN9D0Sz6Wjk9GGm26gU9m5+nToJc4i6169FOl+CWQMjaaBpxjhnUS90iWORS4G2xVZP5At5V2gC3I+jDKrpA7m+pI6i/tRYlDREWI97k9aGBErE+WdcJ4SjCV9lQLxRMr98h+jeZwzsnga51RzhKYKlr+bcuUEc0BIy5zc/MWi7CC8ghbZTCjnwut+1fv4s5DJdvLm51jjWpXE7y1waQmjJG+P83b3u5Rar0WMdjVhZAaNyeYZS2qyxSrSx6nQQ+KM/qPxtmWex8k24Kibelo5b0e42mRK82lk0s3MQ=

[04:51:04.0000] <Lachy>
http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/html/tagpages/k/keygen.htm

[04:51:05.0000] <Lachy>
aargh!, sorry, my clipboard was full of other stuff I didn't realise :-(

[04:52:00.0000] <Lachy>
anyway, that crap I pasted was the output of the keygen element

[04:54:00.0000] <annevk>
Safari only supports keytype and challenge

[04:54:01.0000] <annevk>
(and only RSA)

[04:56:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
annevk - maybe Hallvord and write up a description of what it's actually being used for in practice (whatever the Skandiabanken is using it for) and send it to the list

[04:57:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
s/Hallvord and/Hallvord can/

[05:01:00.0000] <Lachy>
this page http://wp.netscape.com/eng/security/downloadcert.html seems to describe the certificates used for it

[05:24:00.0000] <annevk>
fancy

[05:24:01.0000] <annevk>
the BBC guys weigh in

[05:26:00.0000] <virtuelv>
nice

[05:26:01.0000] <hasather>
Just noticed that Sweden's largest auction site allows arbitrary HTML in the object description :S Just alerted my own cookie

[05:26:02.0000] <annevk>
heh

[05:33:00.0000] <Lachy>
oh, nice!  I wonder if BBC are considering releasing their content in DRM-free Dirac in the future?

[05:34:00.0000] <Lachy>
last I read, they were considering implementing DRM and moving to proprietary formats

[05:34:01.0000] <annevk>
if browsers all support their open format...

[05:34:02.0000] <Lachy>
that would be awesome!

[05:34:03.0000] <Lachy>
here it is http://defectivebydesign.org/blog/939

[05:35:00.0000] <hsivonen>
has Dirac been vetted for patent avoidance in the UK or also in the US?

[05:36:00.0000] <Lachy>
Thomas' email said "So this time next year, there is a good chance that Dirac will be an international, royalty-free SMPTE standard."

[05:37:00.0000] <hsivonen>
hmm. I wonder how the SMPTE deals with having just approved Microsoft's stuff that is subject to an MPEG-LA portfolio

[05:37:01.0000] <hsivonen>
that is, how they deal with standardizing something else without upsetting MS too much

[05:39:00.0000] <annevk>
I hope that other "year" it takes is a realistic estimate

[05:44:00.0000] <annevk>
Lachy, someone just raised that question

[05:45:00.0000] <hasather>
sent them a mail, I hope they fix it soon

[05:54:00.0000] <Lachy>
does Dirac need to be embedded in a container format like Ogg to be used?

[05:55:00.0000] <annevk>
prolly

[05:56:00.0000] <annevk>
http://dirac.sourceforge.net/

[05:58:00.0000] <Lachy>
http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/OggDirac

[05:58:01.0000] <Lachy>
If Direc is better than Theora, than the spec should change to require it

[05:58:02.0000] <annevk>
Dirac isn't finished

[05:59:00.0000] <annevk>
see my remark about "year" above

[05:59:01.0000] <Lachy>
yeah, I realise that

[05:59:02.0000] <hsivonen>
I wonder if the Dirac folks are able and willing to adopt the MPL 1.1 / GPL 2.0 / LGPL 2.1 tri-license...

[05:59:03.0000] <hsivonen>
Debian...

[06:00:00.0000] <Lachy>
Maybe the spec could recommend both and then let the market decide which is better

[06:01:00.0000] <annevk>
if it's done in a year it prolly make sense to use it

[06:01:01.0000] <Lachy>
I thoght the MPL was the tri-licence

[06:02:00.0000] <annevk>
no

[06:02:01.0000] <annevk>
Gecko is tri-licensed

[06:02:02.0000] <Lachy>
I'm reading the the MPL FAQ

[06:02:03.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: their FAQ implies that they are using the tri-license after all. (I haven't checked their source headers)

[06:02:04.0000] <hsivonen>
their being Dirac

[06:04:00.0000] <annevk>
"We intend to pack the Dirac elementary stream into MXF, which has lots of useful features. That doesn't preclude it packing into Ogg (or Matroska, or anything else) as well, and it's probably a good idea to have a variety of packing formats. For this the elementary stream needs to be very well defined."

[06:04:01.0000] <Lachy>
ok, I get it now.  MPL is one of the 3 licences, which places additional restrictions that are incompatible with GPL.  The tri-license says you have the right to use the code under the terms of either licence

[06:09:00.0000] <Lachy>
I wonder if Dirac could be implemented on Rockbox or iPodLinux.  I read somewhere that Theora can't be due to memory and/or processing contstraints

[06:12:00.0000] <virtuelv>
Lachy: is it that bad? Rockbox has support for MPEG on players without video decoder circuitry (on the ipod nano, for instance)

[06:12:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: the technical problem with avoiding the base techniques of the MPEG family is that the hardware DSP chips accelerate the operations needed for MPEG

[06:14:00.0000] <Lachy>
so are you saying that since Dirac won't have the hardware support like MPEG, then it's unlikely?

[06:15:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: I am saying that existing MPEG-oriented hardware probably won't be particularly useful for accelerating Theora or Dirac

[06:16:00.0000] <Lachy>
ok

[06:16:01.0000] <hsivonen>
(but then, some DSP chips really suck. on Nokia 770, MPEG-4 ASP decoding works better on the CPU than on the DSP)

[07:15:00.0000] <annevk>
lol

[07:15:01.0000] <annevk>
someone is blaming a Firefox developer for solely using IE and not considering Firefox

[07:18:00.0000] <Lachy>
hehe

[07:24:00.0000] <annevk>
and now he forwards my offlist comment to the list

[07:24:01.0000] <annevk>
oh well

[07:24:02.0000] <annevk>
i suppose i can also just ignore him

[07:25:00.0000] <annevk>
/me reads bits of http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-HTMLplusTIME

[07:29:00.0000] <hasather>
plus, he top-posts

[07:31:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
dude seems to be set on trying to tick off as many people as possible

[07:32:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
Isn't that the same guy that took a discussion with Hallvord off into the weeds a couple days ago?

[07:32:01.0000] <annevk>
think so

[07:33:00.0000] <hasather>
it is

[07:33:01.0000] <Lachy>
is this the first time he's posted to the list?

[07:33:02.0000] <Lachy>
is he just a troll?

[07:33:03.0000] <annevk>
he tries to make points i suppose

[08:30:00.0000] <tylerr>
Morning all.

[08:30:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
sigh. the trick didn't work. we still get spammers to the forum :(

[08:31:00.0000] <hasather>
zcorpan_: they aren't bots then

[08:31:01.0000] <tylerr>
XHTML2 fanboys.

[08:31:02.0000] <tylerr>
/me winks.

[08:31:03.0000] <zcorpan_>
could be

[08:31:04.0000] <tylerr>
Just out to cause inconvenience.

[08:49:00.0000] <ROBOd>
zcorpan_: it takes more time to fight spam, than to approve each user

[08:49:01.0000] <ROBOd>
zcorpan_: it's also easier to appoint more moderators/admins which can do this "job"

[08:58:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
ROBOd: perhaps... but sometimes it's hard to tell whether a user is a spammer or not

[08:59:00.0000] <ROBOd>
zcorpan_: not really. spammers almost *always* fill their profile with wrong data

[08:59:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
the last two didn't have anything in particular in their profile

[08:59:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
like most users

[08:59:03.0000] <ROBOd>
and you can also "smell" spammers based on their email address. e.g. i don't approve accounts @mail.ru 

[08:59:04.0000] <zcorpan_>
@mail.ru is already banned

[08:59:05.0000] <zcorpan_>
but yeah

[09:00:00.0000] <ROBOd>
and based on the names they pick...

[09:01:00.0000] <ROBOd>
but yes, i understand it's harder for you to tell spammers apart from normal users

[09:02:00.0000] <ROBOd>
in my case, on the forum i was referring to, it's for a national informatics contest. so, accounts with english names are marked as spam from the start :)

[09:03:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
ROBOd could be a spammer ;)

[09:03:01.0000] <ROBOd>
hehe

[09:03:02.0000] <ROBOd>
right

[09:04:00.0000] <tylerr>
Any one of us could be.

[09:04:01.0000] <tylerr>
/me shifts his eyes around.

[09:16:00.0000] <annevk>
more XForms pushing on public-html

[09:16:01.0000] <annevk>
by citing a guy famous for promoting XForms

[09:19:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
i thought the good stuff from xhtml2 and xforms were already in html5 and wf2

[09:19:01.0000] <annevk>
xhtml2 certainly

[09:19:02.0000] <annevk>
xforms prolly as much as possible

[09:29:00.0000] <annevk>
/me e-mailed a simple reply

[09:51:00.0000] <gsnedders>
if createElement(tagName) creates an element in the HTML namespace, isn't it the same as createElementNS("http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml", tagName)?

[09:52:00.0000] <annevk>
yes

[09:52:01.0000] <annevk>
that battle hasn't finished yet though

[09:53:00.0000] <gsnedders>
didn't Opera have some pre-release version with namespaces in HTML? What caused the issues with that?

[09:53:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Did it allow namespaces from within the document, or what?

[09:54:00.0000] <annevk>
we had special HTML parsing that caused problems

[09:54:01.0000] <annevk>
this is different

[09:54:02.0000] <annevk>
in Opera createElement(tagName) maps to createElementNS(document.documentElement.namespaceURI, tagName) btw... (well, it also caters for documentElement being undefined)

[09:56:00.0000] <gsnedders>
ah, thanks annevk 

[09:57:00.0000] <annevk>
the upside is that it caters for broken SVG documents and the downside is that it might break scripts that are copy and pasted between standalone and compound documents

[09:58:00.0000] <annevk>
then again, those scripts should prolly use the namespaced method anyway

[10:07:00.0000] <annevk>
/me wonders what the fuss about whatwg-legal is about

[10:07:01.0000] <ROBOd>
hmm... is that even near to be something "official"?

[10:08:00.0000] <annevk>
of course not

[10:08:01.0000] <ROBOd>
i don't like that ...

[10:08:02.0000] <annevk>
/me thought it was joke

[10:08:03.0000] <ROBOd>
me too

[10:09:00.0000] <gavin_>
it's hosted on Microsoft's servers

[10:09:01.0000] <ROBOd>
it's like i'd start right now a newsgroup "microsoft-legal" on google groups :)

[10:09:02.0000] <annevk>
it's created by a guy from MoCo

[10:09:03.0000] <gavin_>
they need to review their patent portfolio before the group can be activated

[10:10:00.0000] <gavin_>
annevk: I'm well aware!

[10:10:01.0000] <annevk>
thought so :)

[10:10:02.0000] <annevk>
but MS only needs to review the HTML charter

[10:10:03.0000] <ROBOd>
does the WHATWG *allow* the usage of the WHATWG name? when it's not officially approved

[10:10:04.0000] <annevk>
it covers everything the HTML5 spec covers iirc

[10:11:00.0000] <gavin_>
What I said above about patents was a joke.

[10:11:01.0000] <MikeSmith>
annevk - are you planning maybe to follow up with Hallvord about <keygen> use cases?

[10:11:02.0000] <annevk>
ROBOd, WHATWG isn't an organization

[10:11:03.0000] <annevk>
MikeSmith, I followed up with Yngve actually

[10:11:04.0000] <MikeSmith>
annevk - ah, you're brave

[10:12:00.0000] <ROBOd>
annevk: so, then .. I can create whatwg-robod mailing list? :)

[10:12:01.0000] <annevk>
I didn't get much out of him but I believe the idea is that the browser creates a private key and submits the public key to the server

[10:12:02.0000] <annevk>
and each time you then submit a <keygen> thing again that key is e-mailed to the server

[10:12:03.0000] <annevk>
or something in that direction

[10:13:00.0000] <annevk>
ROBOd, there's already a whatwg⊙mo list if I'm not mistaken

[10:13:01.0000] <annevk>
(that just copies all the e-mails somewhere else)

[10:14:00.0000] <sayrer>
you're all jealous of my splinter group!

[10:14:01.0000] <ROBOd>
sayrer: lol

[10:15:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
sayrer: you could opt to not read the threads you're not interested in, you know ;)

[10:15:01.0000] <ROBOd>
sayrer: it's only a splinter... after all :P

[10:16:00.0000] <ROBOd>
and yes... we all keep up with all the emails

[10:16:01.0000] <ROBOd>
only Hixie can .... 

[10:16:02.0000] <ROBOd>
*we CANNOT all keep up

[10:16:03.0000] <annevk>
http://twitter.com/tommorris/statuses/9288361

[10:16:04.0000] <MikeSmith>
annevk - so knowing the use case, you will maybe write a <keygen> proposal to the list?

[10:17:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
or at least ask if anybody else on the list has interest in it being spec'ed?

[10:17:01.0000] <ROBOd>
and as such, what zcorpan_ suggests is the norm for me: i do not read what i'm not interested of

[10:18:00.0000] <annevk>
MikeSmith, I believe Ian is already planning on adding it in due course

[10:18:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
whining about things only adds even more noise to the list

[10:18:02.0000] <ROBOd>
exactly

[10:21:00.0000] <annevk>
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html/browse_frm/thread/45ccb1fa7847fea1/39f7e00f8481e524

[10:43:00.0000] <hasather>
annevk: Ironically for Jukka, his name is in the Acks :D

[10:43:01.0000] <billmason>
lol

[10:45:00.0000] <annevk>
btw, I just pasted this one into #html-wg: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html/browse_frm/thread/68cc062324b71173/50049eff53cbb5f2 (never say never)

[10:46:00.0000] <hasather>
annevk: hehe

[10:47:00.0000] <hasather>
I think most of us thought that at the time

[10:59:00.0000] <annevk>
/me moves to some other place

[10:59:01.0000] <annevk>
bbl

[11:35:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
hmm, http://listserver.dreamhost.com/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-December/008870.html has surely existed before

[11:37:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
oh, it's on http://lists.whatwg.org/ now. ok.

[11:43:00.0000] <annevk>
heh, the <di> joke continues

[11:46:00.0000] <Hixie>
did he just resend his e-mail? or is my client confused or something.

[11:46:01.0000] <gavin_>
my client is also confused

[11:46:02.0000] <gavin_>
so perhaps he did

[11:47:00.0000] <billmason>
I think he resent it when w3 had a mail outage earlier.

[11:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
ah

[12:27:00.0000] <othermaciej>
hi everyone

[12:27:01.0000] <hasather>
hi

[12:28:00.0000] <tylerr>
Hi othermaciej.

[12:28:01.0000] <tylerr>
How's the day going?

[12:28:02.0000] <othermaciej>
hi tylerr 

[12:28:03.0000] <othermaciej>
going ok

[12:29:00.0000] <tylerr>
Good good. :)

[12:30:00.0000] <othermaciej>
looking forward to leading the day's flames

[12:30:01.0000] <sayrer>
at least you aren't leading a rogue splinter group

[12:31:00.0000] <tylerr>
Hah! I'm too busy fixing other people's work today to even feel the warmth of the flames. ;)

[12:39:00.0000] <tylerr>
Mmm, company-wide connection hiccups are fun. :(

[12:47:00.0000] <billmason>
It's funny how #html-wg is so entertaining to me even though the argument is so far over my head, it's probably looped back under my feet.

[13:01:00.0000] <Hixie>
right.

[13:01:01.0000] <Hixie>
so.

[13:01:02.0000] <Hixie>
<audio>

[13:02:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me tries to extract out an abstract spec from the <video> section

[13:02:01.0000] <tylerr>
Where should we start on that?

[13:02:02.0000] <Hixie>
i'm starting from the current spec and apple's proposal

[13:03:00.0000] <tylerr>
billmason: I'm completely new to all this too, so we can learn together. :)

[13:32:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Hixie: Your little green guys are getting impatient ;)

[13:58:00.0000] <Hixie>
Dashiva: i played all my games

[14:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
looks like hsivonen is going through old threads he's been stockpiling like me :-)

[14:23:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: just the one now that I have something to say about bibliographies

[14:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
hehe

[14:26:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I need to flush my stockpiled paper scribblings at some point, though

[14:27:00.0000] <hsivonen>
(stuff that I've written in the margins of the spec prints)

[15:04:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
http://forums.whatwg.org/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=52 i would impossibly be able to tell that was a spammer

[15:06:00.0000] <hasather>
zcorpan_: I'd say spammer

[15:07:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
although he did seem to spam manually

[15:07:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
oh sure, but having admin approval to activate accounts wouldn't help here

[15:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
not a very good spammer if he is

[15:08:01.0000] <Hixie>
he didn't do any <a> links to sites anywhere as far as i can tell

[15:08:02.0000] <Hixie>
hey hyatt

[15:08:03.0000] <hasather>
zcorpan_: ah, I see what you mean

[15:09:00.0000] <hyatt>
Hixie: howdy

[15:11:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me splits <video> into <video> and an HTMLMediaElement abstract concept

[15:12:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Indeed

[15:12:01.0000] <Hixie>
christ that ended up being nearly a 40000 line diff

[15:12:02.0000] <Hixie>
oh i think bert must have updated his script

[15:16:00.0000] <hyatt>
Hixie: did you spec <marquee> in html5?

[15:16:01.0000] <Hixie>
no

[15:17:00.0000] <Hixie>
(nobody asked for it)

[15:17:01.0000] <Hixie>
(and i didn't think about adding it)

[15:18:00.0000] <hyatt>
given that everyone implements it

[15:18:01.0000] <kingryan>
/me is tempted to ask for it, just because :D

[15:18:02.0000] <hyatt>
i think it should be in the spec

[15:18:03.0000] <Hixie>
oh it'll be in the rendering section for sure

[15:19:00.0000] <Hixie>
i haven't even started that

[15:19:01.0000] <Hixie>
i thought you meant in the language (i.e. allowed)

[15:25:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
/me should also go away and write his own spec on forms, then ask for it to be merged with WF2

[15:32:00.0000] <tylerr>
Quick question. I'm organizing all the tags into element types. Using the working draft as my source, is the order of the grouping significant in any way?

[15:33:00.0000] <Lachy_>
tylerr: what do you mean?

[15:33:01.0000] <tylerr>
As an example, <aside> is both a sectioning and block-level element.

[15:34:00.0000] <tylerr>
I'm trying to determine how to group elements that are a part of multiple types.

[15:35:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
they are grouped in the spec, e.g. "Lists", "Phrase elements", etc.

[15:35:01.0000] <Lachy_>
well, in that example, all sectioning elements are inherently block level anyway

[15:35:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
except <body>

[15:35:03.0000] <tylerr>
Ah right.

[15:36:00.0000] <Lachy_>
that seems like a sensible grouping method

[15:36:01.0000] <tylerr>
I'm getting the elements grouped up so that I can start drafting up my articles.

[15:36:02.0000] <Lachy_>
though, it depends on your needs.  I assume this has something to do with that series of articles you're planning?

[15:36:03.0000] <Lachy_>
ok.

[15:37:00.0000] <tylerr>
I'm just stripping all the excess out for the moment and trying to get a very basic organized group established.

[15:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
i wouldn't worry about putting them into mutually exclusive gorups

[15:38:01.0000] <Hixie>
groups

[15:38:02.0000] <Hixie>
i'd look at it more from a general feature perspective, e.g. tutorials about sections, tutorials about overall structure (<body> would be in both), etc

[15:39:00.0000] <tylerr>
That's what will be the end product I hope Hixie for my articles.

[15:39:01.0000] <Hixie>
cool

[15:39:02.0000] <tylerr>
If you're familiar with "Web Standards Solutions" or "HTML Mastery", I'll be following their structure.

[15:39:03.0000] <tylerr>
Just in smaller more digestible chunks. :)

[15:41:00.0000] <tylerr>
So you would suggest then articles on things like, "Root", "Metadata", "Sections", "Prose", etc. as per the spec?

[15:42:00.0000] <tylerr>
I think that's the best way to approach it.

[15:42:01.0000] <Hixie>
dunno

[15:42:02.0000] <Hixie>
i'm not a tutorial author

[15:42:03.0000] <Hixie>
i have no idea what authors want

[15:42:04.0000] <Hixie>
or need

[15:42:05.0000] <tylerr>
:)

[15:42:06.0000] <Lachy_>
you might want to try structuring it around the use cases

[15:42:07.0000] <bewest>
cookbook style?

[15:43:00.0000] <Lachy_>
yeah, I guess

[15:43:01.0000] <Lachy_>
e.g. Talk about how to create a graph with <canvas>, or make a drop down toolbar menu with <menu>, etc.

[15:44:00.0000] <tylerr>
Sure. Perhaps as a use case at the end of the explaination and such?

[15:44:01.0000] <tylerr>
Like, introduce the <canvas> element, talk about its uses and properties, then give the use case.

[15:44:02.0000] <tylerr>
Those could be two separate entries though I suppose.

[15:44:03.0000] <Lachy_>
talking about it's uses means to give the use cases, doesn't it?

[15:45:00.0000] <tylerr>
Well, describe the element briefly, then dive into the use case rather. :)

[15:45:01.0000] <Lachy_>
I'd start with describing the use case, introduce the elements that can be used to solve it, and then demonstrate how

[15:46:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
yeah

[15:46:01.0000] <tylerr>
Cool, good concept.

[15:46:02.0000] <tylerr>
"Problem -> Solution -> Implementation"

[15:46:03.0000] <Lachy_>
yes, exactly!

[15:46:04.0000] <Hixie>
hmmm

[15:46:05.0000] <Hixie>
/me ponders about reusing <param>

[15:47:00.0000] <Lachy_>
Hixie, I think that was a good idea

[15:47:01.0000] <tylerr>
Heh, after enough of these, I'd have the makings of a book. :p

[15:48:00.0000] <tylerr>
Now the question is, whom is the audience? Experienced HTML authors wanting to migrate to HTML5, or fresh off the cutting block newbies, or both? :)

[15:49:00.0000] <tylerr>
And then there is the issue of styling the implementations and enhancing them with behaviors.

[15:49:01.0000] <Hixie>
sweet, IE doesn't drop <param> elements inside <video> tags

[15:49:02.0000] <Hixie>
and it even keeps the attributes

[15:49:03.0000] <Hixie>
score!

[15:49:04.0000] <tylerr>
So many things to cover...

[15:49:05.0000] <tylerr>
/me grins

[15:49:06.0000] <bewest>
that reminds me to check how button works in html5

[15:51:00.0000] <bewest>
oooo - would <button> be in forms?  (I'm specifically curious as to whether or not the spec takes a stance on IE's behaviour of re-assigning the node contents to the value attribute)

[15:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
that's bogus. bug in ie.

[15:51:02.0000] <Hixie>
and yes it's in wf2

[15:51:03.0000] <Lachy_>
tylerr: I am writing a book like that on HTML5, maybe I'll rip off some of your articles ;-)

[15:51:04.0000] <tylerr>
Haha!

[15:52:00.0000] <tylerr>
What's the context? For beginners?

[15:52:01.0000] <bewest>
yeah, that is my pet peeve

[15:52:02.0000] <bewest>
I hate that behaviour

[15:52:03.0000] <Lachy_>
It should cover from beginner to advanced authors

[15:53:00.0000] <tylerr>
Ah lovely.

[15:53:01.0000] <tylerr>
Perhaps if this turns into a book for me, we'll suggest eachothers' work's in the intros. ;)

[15:54:00.0000] <tylerr>
Too many apostrophes. :)

[16:01:00.0000] <tylerr>
So here's an idea. Take each of the sections and have a use case that is comprised of steps, or levels of enhancement.

[16:06:00.0000] <tylerr>
As an example, start with a <p>, give it enhancements with <em>/<strong>/etc. move on to breaking up quotes with <blockquote>, so on and so forth. All the while introducing each of these elements.

[16:07:00.0000] <Lachy_>
yeah, but aren't you only writing about the new features in HTML5, not those that have been in HTML forever?

[16:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
probably makes sense to treat them the same, if you're targetting newbies

[16:09:00.0000] <tylerr>
It all depends on whom I'm targeting.

[16:09:01.0000] <tylerr>
Which I haven't decided upon yet. :)

[16:09:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
people reading the whatwg blog probably already know about html4, i'd think

[16:10:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
as a start, i'd focus on new features that are implemented in some browser

[16:10:01.0000] <tylerr>
Sure. Perhaps I'll start with the new items, particularly the ones already implemented, them move on from there.

[16:10:02.0000] <tylerr>
So <canvas>, then move on from there. ;)

[16:12:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
now we're talking ;)

[16:12:01.0000] <tylerr>
Anyway, more tomorrow, as I'm off for the evening. Cheers everyone!

[16:12:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
bye

[16:23:00.0000] <Hixie>
so

[16:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: the <param> thing is great, but it poses an interesting design choice

[16:23:02.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: should we say that the choice of which media resource to use is only made when you call .play() the first time (or after a .stop() call), and that dynamic changes to the document are otherwise ignored?

[16:23:03.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: after talking to Darin, I don't think it should use the <param> element, seems wonky to reuse it with a whole separate set of attributes

[16:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
well i don't mind what we call the element, <param> has the advantage of not requiring parser changes (legacy UAs would treat a new element as being an inline element, not just an empty one)

[16:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
(IE notwithstanding)

[16:24:02.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: my thought on how static fallback should work:

[16:25:00.0000] <othermaciej>
1) You first do it when you hit the video close tag

[16:26:00.0000] <Hixie>
hrm, i'm trying to avoid things that depend on parsing the end tag. </script> is the only one that does that right now.

[16:26:01.0000] <Hixie>
doing that makes a dichtomy between dynamic mutations and parsing

[16:26:02.0000] <Hixie>
which is annoying to spec (puts knowledge of the element into the parser part of the spec)

[16:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
but we can do it on the invokation of play(), and say that that gets called automatically onload if autoplay is set

[16:28:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: sorry, in meeting, I'll get back to this shortly (less than 30 min)

[16:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
k

[16:28:02.0000] <Hixie>
no worries

[16:30:00.0000] <Lachy_>
Hixie, I don't understand what you mean by "the choice of which media resource to use is only made when you call .play() the first time"

[16:31:00.0000] <Lachy_>
doesn't the UA need to choose choose the suitable format from those available and downlaod it before play() is invoked?

[16:31:01.0000] <Hixie>
no, .play() is what starts the download in the current spec

[16:31:02.0000] <Lachy_>
oh, did that change?

[16:31:03.0000] <Lachy_>
maybe I just didn't read carefully enough

[16:32:00.0000] <Hixie>
well the UA can precache before if it wants

[16:32:01.0000] <Hixie>
but that isn't required

[16:33:00.0000] <Lachy_>
ok, so that handles YouTybe's case where videos embedded on other sites don't begin downloading till the user requests, but UAs would need to provide an easy way to start downloading in the background before play)(

[16:33:01.0000] <Lachy_>
play()

[16:35:00.0000] <Hixie>
hm fair point

[16:35:01.0000] <Hixie>
although

[16:35:02.0000] <Hixie>
wouldn't that be just up to the UA

[16:35:03.0000] <Hixie>
i mean, the author shouldn't have to say "download this, you might need it", surely, having a <video> there is enough to do that

[16:35:04.0000] <Hixie>
brb

[16:36:00.0000] <Lachy_>
yes, it would be up to the UA.  Isn't that what I said?

[16:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh

[16:41:01.0000] <Hixie>
i guess i misunderstood "would need to provide an easy way"

[16:42:00.0000] <Lachy_>
that sentence begun with "but UAs ...", and figuring out the "easy way" is up to their UI designers

[16:47:00.0000] <Hixie>
i don't understand why there'd be any ui

[16:47:01.0000] <Hixie>
wouldn't browsers just do it?

[16:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
though i guess if we do do this we _should_ send events so that the author-driven ui can update too

[16:49:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: will have much to say on this once I am out of my meeting, topic is too complex to discuss in background to this meeting

[16:50:00.0000] <Hixie>
sure

[16:50:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me is playing while he waits :-D

[16:53:00.0000] <bewest>
Hixie: how many documents do you have that contain a classname containing "vcard" somewhere in the document?

[16:53:01.0000] <Hixie>
haven't done a classname survey for many months

[16:53:02.0000] <Hixie>
when i did it it wasn't many

[16:53:03.0000] <Hixie>
but that was at least 6 months ago now

[16:54:00.0000] <bewest>
/me nods

[16:54:01.0000] <bewest>
what is the rough range of not many?

[16:55:00.0000] <Lachy_>
Hixie, it depends.  In some cases it makes sense to immediately start downloading and buffering the video, in others it doesn't.

[16:56:00.0000] <Lachy_>
e.g. when on YouTube, I like to open new videos in background tabs and have them load while I'm watching another, but if I just happen to come across a blog with a video in it, I'd like to decide whether or not I want to download it first

[16:56:01.0000] <Hixie>
bewest: not in the top 1000 class names. less common than class="srchbox_keywords_div" or class="affiliates_wrapper" or class="ex_hdr_cell"

[16:56:02.0000] <bewest>
hmmm that's interesting

[16:56:03.0000] <bewest>
/me looks for himself

[16:56:04.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy_: hm, fair enough. not sure how to tell the difference, but yeah, that would be a ui thing.

[16:56:05.0000] <zcorpan_>
Lachy_: the one on youtube in a background tab would have autoplay=""

[16:57:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
the blog with video in it wouldn't

[16:57:01.0000] <Hixie>
you'd hope

[16:57:02.0000] <Lachy_>
possibly, but I wouldn't want the video to actually play until I swtich to that tab.  I guess that's also up to the UA, since that's Safari's behaviour

[16:58:00.0000] <Hixie>
does safari even buffer?

[16:58:01.0000] <bewest>
do authors copy/paste those from somewhere?

[16:58:02.0000] <Lachy_>
not sure, I only know what othermaciej told me a few days ago

[16:59:00.0000] <Lachy_>
I haven't tested it out yet


2007-03-23
[17:11:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
http://simon.html5.org/temp/valid-html5.png

[17:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
hahahahaha

[17:12:01.0000] <Hixie>
i love it

[17:13:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
:)

[17:15:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: ok, I'm out of my meeting

[17:15:01.0000] <Hixie>
cool

[17:15:02.0000] <Hixie>
so

[17:15:03.0000] <Hixie>
you started saying something before

[17:15:04.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: I don't think downloading starting on play() is right, so maybe we should step back and discuss that

[17:15:05.0000] <Hixie>
let's work out where to put the urls first

[17:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
since i'm half way through a patch to the spec to do that

[17:16:01.0000] <Hixie>
and i'd have to undo my changes to change something else first

[17:16:02.0000] <othermaciej>
ok

[17:16:03.0000] <othermaciej>
well, I think that affects when you want the fallback algorithm to apply

[17:16:04.0000] <Hixie>
yes, i agree

[17:17:00.0000] <Hixie>
wait, there are two "fallback mechanisms" here

[17:17:01.0000] <Hixie>
there's the content-negotiation "pick the right video" case, and the "my UA doesn't support <video>" case

[17:17:02.0000] <othermaciej>
which two do you have in mind?

[17:17:03.0000] <othermaciej>
ok, agreed

[17:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
i would argue that for the former you just want a list of URIs and metadata (MIME type with RFC4281, eg)

[17:18:01.0000] <othermaciej>
yes

[17:18:02.0000] <Hixie>
and for the second you want arbitrary markup, which is never shown in <video>-supporting UAs

[17:18:03.0000] <othermaciej>
even if the last chance media source is unsupported?

[17:19:00.0000] <Hixie>
i think if none of the codecs are supported, the better result is for the UA to display UI to the effect of "codec not supported, download more here"

[17:19:01.0000] <Hixie>
(maybe automatically doing so)

[17:20:00.0000] <othermaciej>
it's possible <object> would support codecs that are not natively supported

[17:20:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I can see arguments either way

[17:20:02.0000] <othermaciej>
would rather not debate it now

[17:20:03.0000] <othermaciej>
I think your proposal is fine

[17:21:00.0000] <othermaciej>
list for content negotiation, alternate content only for non-<video> UAs

[17:21:01.0000] <Hixie>
so my straw man for how to give the UA the list and alternate content would be  <video> (list goes here)  (legacy ua content goes here) </video>

[17:21:02.0000] <Hixie>
with the list being a series of elements with src/type attributes

[17:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
tentatively <param> since it already works and is a void element (no end tag) in all UAs

[17:22:01.0000] <othermaciej>
can you also specify src/type on <video> itself?

[17:22:02.0000] <othermaciej>
if so, what if you specify both that and <param>s?

[17:23:00.0000] <Hixie>
i would only have one

[17:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
on the principle of simplicity

[17:23:02.0000] <Hixie>
though i agree it's weird

[17:24:00.0000] <othermaciej>
if it weren't for the <param> is already void issue, I would suggest having a new element called <alt>

[17:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
agreed

[17:24:02.0000] <othermaciej>
and allow src/type on <video> and have that be the first one considered

[17:24:03.0000] <zcorpan_>
oh, no, that's too confusing with alt tags, er, i mean alt attributes :P

[17:24:04.0000] <othermaciej>
so the non-fallback case is still simple

[17:24:05.0000] <Hixie>
though i dunno what i'd like, namewise

[17:25:00.0000] <Hixie>
well even with <param> we could do that

[17:25:01.0000] <Hixie>
but it looks a bit weird

[17:25:02.0000] <Hixie>
<video src=a type=a> <param src=b type=b> <param src=c type=c>  ... </video>

[17:26:00.0000] <othermaciej>
yeah, that's why I suggested <alt>, cause then it's clear that it is an alternate source

[17:27:00.0000] <othermaciej>
not sure what would happen in existing UAs if it appeared as an unclosed element

[17:27:01.0000] <othermaciej>
or you could be lame and require a close tag even though there can't be content

[17:28:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
it wouldn't mess up existing uas, i think. in ie it would be an empty element, and other browsers would close them at </video>

[17:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
well it's not really an <alt>, though, right, i mean it's equally important as the first one

[17:28:02.0000] <Hixie>
it's just the ua will pick the best one, or something

[17:29:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
<negotiate>

[17:29:01.0000] <othermaciej>
well, there's an ordering

[17:29:02.0000] <othermaciej>
so there is in fact a priority order

[17:29:03.0000] <Hixie>
oh, ok

[17:34:00.0000] <othermaciej>
or rather, I think the algorithm should pick the first one that it supports

[17:35:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I suppose another design would have the UI somehow evaluate quality, not just binary yes/no

[17:35:01.0000] <othermaciej>
but I think that is harder to deal with for both UAs and authors

[17:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
hang on mtg of my own now

[17:41:01.0000] <othermaciej>
ok

[17:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok back

[17:48:01.0000] <Hixie>
i guess we can have src/type on video and on child elements

[17:48:02.0000] <Hixie>
but it feels a little weird to me

[17:48:03.0000] <Hixie>
kind of assymetric

[17:50:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Agreed, but it would be nice not to make the no-fallback case more complex

[17:50:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah..

[17:50:02.0000] <Hixie>
<video><param src=""></video>

[17:50:03.0000] <Hixie>
it's not that much more complex i guess

[17:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
or maybe we can make it be one or the other

[17:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
if there's a src, ignore children

[17:51:02.0000] <Hixie>
if there isn't, only use children

[17:51:03.0000] <Hixie>
and not have a type="" on the <Video> element itself

[17:53:00.0000] <othermaciej>
it's hard for me to have a strong opinion on these particular details

[17:53:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I would like both single-source and multi-source cases to be nice syntactically

[17:53:02.0000] <Hixie>
ok well i'll just go with that last suggestion then

[17:53:03.0000] <Hixie>
what was the argument against using <param>?

[17:54:00.0000] <othermaciej>
is using an already-void element really a big advantage here, btw?

[17:54:01.0000] <othermaciej>
is there any UA where </video> wouldn't close random open unknown elements?

[17:54:02.0000] <Hixie>
well it's not a huge advantage, it's just neat. It also avoids the need to invent yet another element.

[17:54:03.0000] <Hixie>
every element we use here is one less name we can use elsewhere when we really need it

[17:55:00.0000] <othermaciej>
sure, but one element that you use with completely orthogonal sets of attributes in different situations is not much of a simplification

[17:55:01.0000] <othermaciej>
and makes validators either more complicated or less effective

[17:56:00.0000] <Hixie>
this is probably a one-line change in a decently architected conformance checker

[17:56:01.0000] <Hixie>
it only complicates matters if someone tries to document the element itself, as opposed to <object> and <video>

[17:56:02.0000] <Hixie>
hm

[17:56:03.0000] <Hixie>
what could we call it if not <param>...

[17:56:04.0000] <Hixie>
<source>, maybe

[17:56:05.0000] <othermaciej>
<source> is good

[17:56:06.0000] <Hixie>
<video> <source src="" type=""> <source src="" type=""> <p>You need Safari 3.</p> </video>

[17:58:00.0000] <othermaciej>
<source src> is a bit awkward, but better than alternatives I guess

[17:58:01.0000] <othermaciej>
the other prior art would be <source data> or <source href> and both of those seem worse

[17:58:02.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[17:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
personally i prefer <param src="" type=""> but <source> is fine too. i'm speccing <source> for now, we can see what people say.

[17:59:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
i'd vote for <param> over <source>

[17:59:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
fwiw

[18:01:00.0000] <othermaciej>
it would seem weird to me if <param value name> and <param src type> were the same element but had completely different semantics, behavior, allowed attributes and contexts where they are valid

[18:03:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'd consider them different elements :-)

[18:03:01.0000] <Hixie>
just that happen to have the same name :-)

[18:04:00.0000] <othermaciej>
would the HTMLParamElement interface also include both sets of attributes?

[18:05:00.0000] <Hixie>
sure

[18:05:01.0000] <Hixie>
on <source>, should the type="" attribute require a codec="" parameter?

[18:05:02.0000] <othermaciej>
Some audio/video types may already imply a codec

[18:06:00.0000] <Hixie>
k

[18:06:01.0000] <Hixie>
so optional but mentioned

[18:07:00.0000] <othermaciej>
<param> already has a type attribute BTW

[18:07:01.0000] <Hixie>
not in HTML5

[18:07:02.0000] <Hixie>
but yeah

[18:07:03.0000] <Hixie>
in HTML4 it did

[18:07:04.0000] <othermaciej>
I guess no one uses that?

[18:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
i couldn't work out what it was supposed to do and nobody could tell me

[18:08:01.0000] <Hixie>
so i dropped it

[18:08:02.0000] <Hixie>
:-)

[18:08:03.0000] <Hixie>
much like <meta scheme>

[18:08:04.0000] <Hixie>
and many others

[18:10:00.0000] <Lachy_>
hmm.  I was expecting you to use <param name="src" value="">

[18:10:01.0000] <Lachy_>
embedding flash in IE uses <param name="movie" value="flash.swf">

[18:10:02.0000] <Hixie>
the name="src" would be redundant and UAs would end up ignoring it

[18:11:00.0000] <Lachy_>
so this param is only ever going to be used for specifying alternate sources?

[18:11:01.0000] <Hixie>
it's <source> right now

[18:11:02.0000] <Hixie>
but for now, yes

[18:11:03.0000] <Hixie>
extensibility doesn't work when you only have one value, because people end up ignoring it

[18:11:04.0000] <Hixie>
look at, e.g., <style>'s type="" attribute

[18:13:00.0000] <Lachy_>
I thought it might have been useful for extensibility, so that instead of adding new attributes to <video> for every new feature in the future, we could just use <param name value>

[18:14:00.0000] <othermaciej>
better yet, we could do that for all elements, and deprecate attributes entirely

[18:14:01.0000] <othermaciej>
</reductio>

[18:14:02.0000] <Lachy_>
:-)

[18:15:00.0000] <Lachy_>
I'm not particularly thrilled with <source src>.  The name seems a little redundant, and could cause confusion for some about which spelling of source/src to use

[18:15:01.0000] <Hixie>
that's what xhtml2 has done

[18:15:02.0000] <Hixie>
(seriously)

[18:16:00.0000] <Lachy_>
really?  I thought XHTMl2 <param> was only for object

[18:16:01.0000] <Hixie>
well they use <meta>

[18:16:02.0000] <Lachy_>
oh, they have done that with <meta> thought

[18:17:00.0000] <Hixie>
but <element><meta name="foo">bar</meta></element> is supposedly exactly equivalent to <element foo="bar"/> in XHTML2

[18:17:01.0000] <Lachy_>
where is that specified? ;-)

[18:17:02.0000] <Hixie>
hah

[18:17:03.0000] <Hixie>
i asked steven that in person once

[18:17:04.0000] <Hixie>
he told me it wasn't required

[18:18:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
it's undefined, like everything else ;)

[18:18:01.0000] <Hixie>
i never got him to explain why the spec says about that <title> example that the two are equivalent, if they're not as he claimed to me in person

[18:18:02.0000] <Lachy_>
I never got a response to my questions about the equivalence of <title>/<meta name="title'>

[18:18:03.0000] <Hixie>
go figure

[18:21:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Lachy_: maybe if you were more aligned you would understand

[18:22:00.0000] <Lachy_>
understand what?

[18:22:01.0000] <othermaciej>
the equivalent of <title>/<meta name="title">

[18:23:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I'm kind of being facetious here

[18:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
i still don't get why we would want to _not_ look at concrete technical issues

[18:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
but instead pontificate on "interesting" questions

[18:26:00.0000] <othermaciej>
well apparently if you do that, you get XHTML2

[18:34:00.0000] <Hixie>
what should the method that does the conneg without doing the play() be called? open() or load() ?

[18:42:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Hixie: buffer? preload? Among the two you suggested, I'd take load

[18:44:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Or do you mean only a basic HEAD to get the parameters, no content download involved?

[18:44:01.0000] <Hixie>
preload() i guess could work too

[18:44:02.0000] <Hixie>
though i prefer load(), i think

[01:25:00.0000] <krijnh>
Whoops

[01:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
gonna go home

[01:59:01.0000] <Hixie>
might work some more from home

[02:00:00.0000] <dhyatt>
seeya

[02:11:00.0000] <Looking>
/me up krijnh user info...

[03:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
i wonder whether loop() should automatically seek() to the begin point first

[03:43:00.0000] <met_>
for video or audio?

[03:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
both

[03:44:01.0000] <Hixie>
though if you think they should be different, do say

[03:45:00.0000] <met_>
when compare with e.g. mp3 players, there you can switch on/off repeat during listening and it contiues play without switching

[03:45:01.0000] <met_>
same tape-recorders

[03:45:02.0000] <met_>
do not see seek before loop in any system I know

[03:46:00.0000] <met_>
dvd players the same I think

[03:47:00.0000] <Hixie>
the problem is if you don't seek() when you call loop(), then it's not clear how to either (a) restart a loop, or (b) do a loop with pre- and post-roll sfx

[03:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
(a) would require the author to explicitly seek() to start pos when paused before calling loop(), otherwise nothing would happen when you  called loop()

[03:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'm gonna get some sleep, think about it when i get up.

[03:49:01.0000] <Hixie>
ttyl

[03:49:02.0000] <met_>
gn

[06:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
anyone know what "apply sort field" does on a selection in iTunes?

[06:20:00.0000] <billmason>
If you have data in one of the "sort" fields on that selection, you can apply that data to songs that match whatever "same-whatever" you choose.  Or something like that.

[06:20:01.0000] <billmason>
http://blech.vox.com/library/post/sort-fields-in-itunes-71.html is a better explanation

[06:21:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me reads, hoping it explains it

[06:22:00.0000] <billmason>
It has to be more coherent than my ramblings.  :)

[06:22:01.0000] <billmason>
I don't use it much.  The UI doesn't help to discover it.

[06:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
wow, yeah, that explained it

[06:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
cool

[06:28:02.0000] <Hixie>
thanks

[06:28:03.0000] <Hixie>
glad that it was just added and i hadn't missed it for ages

[06:31:00.0000] <billmason>
you're welcome

[06:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
hm

[06:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
i just realised

[06:43:02.0000] <Hixie>
that in the html5 spec we haven't defined how <script> actually works in XML

[06:43:03.0000] <Hixie>
since it's defined to execute when inserted

[06:43:04.0000] <Hixie>
and the html5 parser is careful not to insert until the script has been appended

[06:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
but that wouldn't work for an xml parser

[07:10:00.0000] <othermaciej>
good evening

[07:13:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
/me is skipping all the Codec emails

[07:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
so othermaciej, if we say that something happens when you parse the </video> tag in HTML5, that still doesn't solve the XML problem

[07:23:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: I don't think we should say that, on further thought

[07:24:00.0000] <karlUshi>
/me wonders if the ordering in iTunes follows the hiragana japanese ordering. 

[07:25:00.0000] <Hixie>
so then the problem is what do we wait for to trigger downloads? the 'load' event on body?

[07:45:00.0000] <Lachy_>
I don't understand the XML problem regarding the downloading of <video> content

[07:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
same as the <script> problem

[07:51:00.0000] <Lachy_>
yeah, I don't understand that one either

[07:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
so <script> is defined to execute when it's inserted into the document

[07:51:02.0000] <Lachy_>
why is it a problem?  Why can't you just specify that the script executes as soon as the script element is finished

[07:51:03.0000] <sayrer>
/me thanks Hixie for his rude email

[07:52:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: anyway, back to </video>

[07:52:01.0000] <othermaciej>
here's my proposed rules for fallback

[07:52:02.0000] <othermaciej>
1) at parse time, you process the <source> elements one at a time, the first successful one becomes the content source

[07:53:00.0000] <othermaciej>
2) if you change the contents of <video> in a way that would change which is the first <source> that's successful, redo the fallback algorithm

[07:53:01.0000] <othermaciej>
(either change which is first, or change what URL it points to)

[07:53:02.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy_: well, there are two options i see: do it on insertion and have the html parser delay insertion until it's filled the child nodes (the script) -- this doesn't handle xml -- or, have different rules for xml, html, and dynamically created elements

[07:54:00.0000] <othermaciej>
the specific changes that would trigger #2 include changing type on the first successful <source> or one before it, removing the first successful <source> or one before it, or inserting a <source> before the first successful one

[07:54:01.0000] <othermaciej>
but you don't have to limit it

[07:54:02.0000] <othermaciej>
can just say that if the same URL ends up being the final src don't make any changes

[07:54:03.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: i really don't want to have to rerun the algorithm every time you change the DOM. You'd end up firing dozens of HTTP requests only to cancel them.

[07:54:04.0000] <sayrer>
option 3: don't specify it because it doesn't work

[07:54:05.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: and doing things when the DOM changes is a source of constant bugs

[07:54:06.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't think you would fire a lot of HTTP requests

[07:54:07.0000] <othermaciej>
in the common parsing case, exactly one

[07:55:00.0000] <othermaciej>
or zero if no <source> elements have a good type

[07:55:01.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: i mean in the DOM manipulation case

[07:55:02.0000] <Hixie>
e.g. if i am moving <source>s about

[07:55:03.0000] <Hixie>
in a DOM inspector or something

[07:55:04.0000] <othermaciej>
yes, well, you don't necessarily have to start the load until the particular script in question is done

[07:55:05.0000] <Hixie>
i'd much rather have an explicit "look at the elements and start the load" step.

[07:56:00.0000] <Hixie>
we can certainly run that algorithm every time you add a <source> element

[07:56:01.0000] <othermaciej>
hmm

[07:56:02.0000] <othermaciej>
usually rendering reacts to DOM changes without the need to make an explicit call

[07:56:03.0000] <Hixie>
which would work fine for load time

[07:56:04.0000] <Hixie>
yeah but this isn't just rendering

[07:56:05.0000] <Hixie>
i mean, it would interrupt active playback and everything

[07:56:06.0000] <Hixie>
and it's a very rare edge case we're talking about

[07:56:07.0000] <Hixie>
so it's extra complexity that isn't worth it

[07:57:00.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: regarding the e-mails, apologies if it sounded rude, it wasn't meant that way. your reply seems to be missing a verb in the first sentence which is preventing me from understanding what you mean.

[07:57:01.0000] <othermaciej>
haven't thought that deeply about the dynamic case, but I usually prefer things where the state of the document is reflected in the rendering regardless of how you got there

[07:57:02.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie: yeah, I skipped "know"

[07:57:03.0000] <othermaciej>
even though that can be complicated to implement

[07:57:04.0000] <othermaciej>
you are right that swapping two <source> elements you wouldn't want to interrupt the video

[07:57:05.0000] <othermaciej>
if it doesn't change which one applies

[07:58:00.0000] <othermaciej>
but I think more commonly you'd update the src and type of all the <source> elements in order

[07:58:01.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie: "I hate to be the one to break this to you" is pretty much universally interpreted as condescending and rude

[07:58:02.0000] <sayrer>
especially when followed by things that everyone knokws

[07:59:00.0000] <sayrer>
I should have been clearer with the patent point, though

[07:59:01.0000] <sayrer>
if you have to pay someone, that means someone owns something

[08:00:00.0000] <sayrer>
which is a pretty good definition of proprietary

[08:00:01.0000] <othermaciej>
sayrer: ordering everyone to take patent discussion to a separate list you just created is pretty rude

[08:00:02.0000] <sayrer>
othermaciej: I didn't order anyone. I thought it was pretty obviously a joke.

[08:02:00.0000] <othermaciej>
sayrer: wasn't obvious to me, since you objected to patent discussion repeatedly

[08:02:01.0000] <sayrer>
I do object to it

[08:02:02.0000] <sayrer>
I don't think participating in WHATWG should include getting weird legal email from Apple. Sorry.

[08:02:03.0000] <othermaciej>
if you don't want to hear about patents you are free to unsubscribe

[08:03:00.0000] <Hixie>
just ignore the mails you don't care about, sheesh

[08:03:01.0000] <Hixie>
we have to sort out this codec thing, and that means discussing patents

[08:03:02.0000] <Hixie>
deal with it

[08:03:03.0000] <othermaciej>
however, they are sadly a relevant issue to web standards

[08:03:04.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: i think you'd want to update the srcs and then when you're done run the algorithm once.

[08:04:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: i don't think you'd want to have the algorithm run as you're updating, with the UA flashing a "no available streams" message for a few milliseconds or something

[08:04:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: that's probably so

[08:04:02.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: or have the UA start playing one of the previous set of sources or something

[08:04:03.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: I wish this could be like CSS style resolution

[08:04:04.0000] <othermaciej>
where you can change multiple styles

[08:04:05.0000] <othermaciej>
but the style recalc only happens after a delay

[08:04:06.0000] <othermaciej>
or if you do something that demands the knowledge immediately

[08:04:07.0000] <othermaciej>
(happens at next async opportunity that is)

[08:05:00.0000] <Hixie>
i dunno, i think it makes sense to just have it be something you have to invoke. trying to see if i can think of other examples of this though.

[08:06:00.0000] <Hixie>
one example would be XMLHttpRequest, it doesn't send off the request just because you've updated the headers

[08:06:01.0000] <Hixie>
there's an explicit commit step

[08:06:02.0000] <Hixie>
(two of them, even, with that API)

[08:06:03.0000] <othermaciej>
yes, but explicit sending of a request is what the API is all about, and how network APIs normally work

[08:06:04.0000] <Hixie>
i dunno, we can make it watch mutations... it just seems painful

[08:07:00.0000] <othermaciej>
updating the rendering to reflect the markup is how display in browsers normally works

[08:07:01.0000] <othermaciej>
even if some loads are involved

[08:07:02.0000] <Hixie>
as a general rule i wouldn't put too much stock in precedent of how html works :-P

[08:07:03.0000] <othermaciej>
I agree that having to explicitly update sounds easier to implement

[08:07:04.0000] <othermaciej>
but it also seems unwebby

[08:08:00.0000] <othermaciej>
anyway my opinion on this point isn't that strong, either way it will be better than <object>

[08:09:00.0000] <Hixie>
fwiw, for some precedent the other way, <script> doesn't reexecute when you change it.

[08:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
does changing <param> elements respawn the <object>'s plugin?

[08:10:01.0000] <othermaciej>
no

[08:11:00.0000] <othermaciej>
not even changing the data attribute changes the contents, I believe

[08:11:01.0000] <Hixie>
hm, html5 says to relaunch plugin when data= or type= change, but ignores changes to <param>

[08:11:02.0000] <Hixie>
might need to look into that at some point then

[08:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'm gonna say changing the <source>s doesn't change the <video>, but we can change that later if we want. no biggie.

[08:13:01.0000] <othermaciej>
ultimately I think we want something that works in the dynamic case (after all, it's "Web Apps 1.0") but that seems ok for starters

[08:14:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh well don't get me wrong

[08:14:01.0000] <Hixie>
there's already a method to manually trigger the algorithm

[08:14:02.0000] <Hixie>
you just call video.load() and it redoes it all

[08:14:03.0000] <othermaciej>
oh

[08:14:04.0000] <othermaciej>
that seems ok

[08:14:05.0000] <Hixie>
the question is just whether to implicitly call that for anything

[08:14:06.0000] <Hixie>
the problem is what to call it for during parse time

[08:15:00.0000] <Lachy_>
/me wonders how these test cases are useful and why they were posted to public-html? http://accessibleinter.net/html/testcases/

[08:15:01.0000] <Hixie>
wait for document load event? hook it into the parser?

[08:16:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I think at parse time loading the first successful one you see is fine

[08:16:01.0000] <Hixie>
oh, right, we can still do that, yeah

[08:16:02.0000] <othermaciej>
explicit load() can be required only if you change things after one has succeeded

[08:17:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[08:25:00.0000] <billmason>
Lachy_: I don't know either, and because I was asked to.

[08:25:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
/me reads scrollback

[08:26:00.0000] <Lachy_>
I don't recommend blindly doing everything you are asked to do

[08:26:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
so alternates for video are now in <source>

[08:26:02.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[08:26:03.0000] <Hixie>
i'm speccing it now

[08:26:04.0000] <Hixie>
should be done in an hour or so

[08:27:00.0000] <Lachy_>
billmason: test cases are useful when trying to determine support for some specific feature in browsers and when they have clear pass/fail conditions.

[08:28:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
dang, what a backlog of comments

[08:28:01.0000] <Lachy_>
in the case of abbr/acronym, browser support is well known already, and your test cases don't specify any pass/fail conditions

[08:30:00.0000] <billmason>
You're not telling me anything I don't know, I'm afraid.

[08:30:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
have you looked at hreflang on source as a possible choice driver?

[08:30:02.0000] <sayrer>
hehe, it gets better and better

[08:31:00.0000] <sayrer>
content negotiation ftw

[08:31:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
QT's content alternatives stuff supports that

[08:31:02.0000] <Hixie>
KevinMarks: this is purely about getting the right codec, if you want to do language selection, just offer the languages to your users

[08:31:03.0000] <Hixie>
or use HTTP Accept-Language

[08:32:00.0000] <sayrer>
oh speaking of QT, is ok to do stuff in the <video> that isn't strictly video?

[08:32:01.0000] <Hixie>
like what?

[08:32:02.0000] <sayrer>
like, can I put Flash movie in it?

[08:32:03.0000] <Hixie>
you mean an FLV file?

[08:32:04.0000] <sayrer>
or an interactive QT thing?

[08:32:05.0000] <Hixie>
sure

[08:32:06.0000] <Hixie>
if your browser supports the FLV codecs

[08:32:07.0000] <Hixie>
(which truly _are_ proprietary, unlike MPEG4)

[08:32:08.0000] <sayrer>
no, I mean full on flash movies

[08:32:09.0000] <KevinMarks>
well, the microformat draft did do that:

[08:32:10.0000] <KevinMarks>
http://microformats.org/wiki/alternates#Strawman_6_.28lists_.2B_explicit_alternator_.2B_using_existing_HTML_idiom.29

[08:33:00.0000] <Hixie>
you mean flash applications? as in swf files?

[08:33:01.0000] <Hixie>
no

[08:33:02.0000] <sayrer>
yep

[08:33:03.0000] <sayrer>
ok, does the spec say that?

[08:33:04.0000] <Hixie>
not sure what it would say

[08:33:05.0000] <Hixie>
it won't work, because the UA won't support that codec

[08:33:06.0000] <sayrer>
does it also rule out the quicktime stuff, and any other weird interactive technologies?

[08:33:07.0000] <Hixie>
because it's not a codec

[08:34:00.0000] <sayrer>
well, some mime types imply a codec

[08:34:01.0000] <Hixie>
if UAs want to work out what it would mean for that to work, i personally wish them luck

[08:34:02.0000] <Hixie>
i don't see any reason to disallow it

[08:34:03.0000] <sayrer>
(not trying to be a jerk... this will happen eventually)

[08:34:04.0000] <Hixie>
actually, the spec does require one thing

[08:34:05.0000] <Hixie>
it requise that the playback position increase monotonically

[08:35:00.0000] <Hixie>
requires

[08:35:01.0000] <sayrer>
ah, that's good

[08:35:02.0000] <Hixie>
which pretty much throws out all that stuff

[08:35:03.0000] <sayrer>
not too clear that stuff like DVD menus is out

[08:35:04.0000] <KevinMarks>
 chapters are useful, but they are hard to make now

[08:35:05.0000] <Hixie>
well anyway

[08:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
<source> is the current topic at hand

[08:36:01.0000] <Hixie>
(as far as editing goes)

[08:36:02.0000] <Hixie>
(feel free to discuss other things amongst yourselves!)

[08:36:03.0000] <sayrer>
(well that won't work, no one has done it yet)

[08:37:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
got ot get my train

[08:38:00.0000] <dhyatt>
sayrer: btw not sure why you're ratholing on patents

[08:38:01.0000] <dhyatt>
sayrer: maciej raised a technical objection to theora as well

[08:38:02.0000] <dhyatt>
sayrer: but you just assumed he was talking about patents again when he wasn't

[08:38:03.0000] <sayrer>
dyhatt: I saw one about hardware playback?

[08:38:04.0000] <dhyatt>
correct.

[08:38:05.0000] <Hixie>
oh god, yeah, theora is doomed on hardware-constrained devices

[08:38:06.0000] <dhyatt>
you can't play video using theora in software on low end devices

[08:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
without hardware support there's no way

[08:39:01.0000] <dhyatt>
and even on those where you could sort of do it, the battery drain would be unacceptable

[08:39:02.0000] <sayrer>
dhyatt: I asked if something about theora prevented hardware playback

[08:39:03.0000] <Hixie>
yeah really

[08:39:04.0000] <dhyatt>
you *need* hardware support right now

[08:39:05.0000] <dhyatt>
this is a really serious issue that people are glossing over

[08:39:06.0000] <dhyatt>
theora chips aren't going to magically materialize any time soon

[08:39:07.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: nothing prevents it, but it's academic if there are no hardware chips (there aren't any)

[08:39:08.0000] <sayrer>
I asked a direct question about it

[08:40:00.0000] <sayrer>
I'm not glossing over it

[08:40:01.0000] <dhyatt>
anway my point was just that maciej is mainly concerned about that

[08:40:02.0000] <dhyatt>
not about patents

[08:40:03.0000] <dhyatt>
there are sound technical reasons to object to theora

[08:40:04.0000] <dhyatt>
ranging from tools for putting video together not supporting it to hardware playback to etc

[08:41:00.0000] <sayrer>
certainly there are sound reasons to refuse it as the /only/ option

[08:41:01.0000] <dhyatt>
although maybe the former is not a big deal and i am just ignorant there :)

[08:41:02.0000] <dhyatt>
my opinion is that we shouldn't even mandate a baseline codec

[08:41:03.0000] <sayrer>
which some have suggested

[08:41:04.0000] <dhyatt>
since <img> doesn't do that

[08:42:00.0000] <dhyatt>
telling mobile devices that can play mpeg in hardware but nothing else that they just can't support the <video> element because they don't do theora is crazy imo

[08:42:01.0000] <sayrer>
well, they wouldn't be compliant

[08:42:02.0000] <Hixie>
oh the spec already allows you to not do ogg theora if you can't

[08:42:03.0000] <dhyatt>
ah ok

[08:42:04.0000] <Hixie>
it's a should-level requirement only at the moment

[08:42:05.0000] <dhyatt>
got it

[08:42:06.0000] <sayrer>
yes, you changed it

[08:42:07.0000] <Hixie>
(it has never been a must)

[08:42:08.0000] <sayrer>
the question is whether that's interesting when the spec is four years out

[08:44:00.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie: there is a comment in there about it not being a must. I assumed you had changed it from some previous state.

[08:44:01.0000] <Hixie>
nope

[08:44:02.0000] <sayrer>
there is a comment in there, right?

[08:44:03.0000] <sayrer>
"this isn't a must because of legal issues"

[08:46:00.0000] <Hixie>
there's a comment, yes

[08:47:00.0000] <Hixie>
it's to remind me of why it's a should, should anyone try to convince me to change it to a must :-)

[08:47:01.0000] <Hixie>
i used to not leave notes to myself, and then i ended up in loops where i'd respond to feedback from one person, go must->should, a year later i'd go should->must, and back and forth year after year

[08:47:02.0000] <Hixie>
until i realised what was going on

[08:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
and now i put guards against that in these kinds of situations

[08:49:00.0000] <tylerr>
Morning everyone.

[08:55:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
morning tylerr

[08:56:00.0000] <tylerr>
Hey there zcorpan_, how was the rest of the day yesterday?

[08:56:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
fine i guess

[08:57:00.0000] <tylerr>
Good good, any plans for the (rest of the) day?

[08:58:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
yeah, i'll play duke nukem 3d at "damn i'm good" :D

[08:59:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
i'm almost through the second episode

[09:01:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
what about you?

[09:03:00.0000] <tylerr>
Just got into the office and have to clean up the work of another vendor that our client has building pages. It's rather frustrating seeing a professional vendor produce such garbage pages.

[09:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
tada!

[09:59:01.0000] <Hixie>
spec updated for <source>

[10:03:00.0000] <othermaciej>
woo hoo

[10:05:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I see you also split out the media element generic stuff from <video>

[10:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[10:08:01.0000] <Hixie>
gonna collapse <audio> and Audio()

[10:08:02.0000] <Hixie>
and make them inherit from HTMLAudioElement like in your propasl

[10:14:00.0000] <othermaciej>
cool

[10:16:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I guess I will wait til you are done adding stuff to compare the result to our proposal w/ my Apple cohorts and to raise any issues

[10:17:00.0000] <othermaciej>
and after that I will raise for discussion features we did not even propose a spec for, like metadata access, track info, timed text support, etc

[10:17:01.0000] <othermaciej>
although I am not sure it is worth raising such things on the whatwg list w/o a spec proposal

[10:17:02.0000] <othermaciej>
since there don't seem to be a lot of media experts there, either that or they don't want to chime in

[10:17:03.0000] <othermaciej>
hello KevinMarks 

[10:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
feel free to raise use cases and feature requests

[10:18:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
hi

[10:18:02.0000] <KevinMarks>
sorry, I should review it, I have had a hectic couple of days

[10:18:03.0000] <Hixie>
i'll talk to the various experts i have access to (including apple people if they'll talk to me), look at existing apis, and see what we can come up with

[10:18:04.0000] <Hixie>
don't review it today

[10:19:00.0000] <Hixie>
tomorrow it should be in better state

[10:19:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
OK

[10:19:02.0000] <Hixie>
i'm slowly merging a bunch of the apple proposals

[10:19:03.0000] <othermaciej>
did you mean the stuff in the whatwg spec or apple's proposals?

[10:19:04.0000] <othermaciej>
apple's proposals aren't going to change, so you can read them, but Hixie is changing some stuff as he merges it in

[10:19:05.0000] <Hixie>
oh sorry i assumed he meant the whatwg spec

[10:19:06.0000] <KevinMarks>
I read the main apple one

[10:20:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
but I haven't read the whatwg spec recently, though I did plough through some of ian's mmaoth collations

[10:20:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
*mammoth

[10:20:02.0000] <Hixie>
hehe

[10:20:03.0000] <othermaciej>
one important but minor point is that time should really be floating point (and so probably seconds) instead of integer milliseconds

[10:20:04.0000] <Hixie>
ew, really?

[10:20:05.0000] <othermaciej>
I can write an email explaining why if you want

[10:20:06.0000] <othermaciej>
well, it wasn't an accident that our spec had it that way

[10:20:07.0000] <Hixie>
i'll change it, but, i'd love to see the reasoning, yes

[10:21:00.0000] <Hixie>
when i looked at it it seemed like a really bad idea

[10:21:01.0000] <othermaciej>
1) milliseconds are not precise enough for audio

[10:21:02.0000] <Hixie>
precise enough to do what with audio?

[10:21:03.0000] <KevinMarks>
get the right sample

[10:21:04.0000] <othermaciej>
2) using integer milliseconds you start getting roundoff error accumulation

[10:21:05.0000] <KevinMarks>
really, you want to use fractions like QT does

[10:21:06.0000] <othermaciej>
audio has very high sample rates

[10:22:00.0000] <othermaciej>
yeah, rational numbers of some kind would work best

[10:22:01.0000] <othermaciej>
we are still discussing a proposal for that

[10:22:02.0000] <othermaciej>
it's hard to come up w/ something sane

[10:22:03.0000] <Hixie>
floats in general seem like a really bad idea due to the loss in precision as you go higher

[10:22:04.0000] <KevinMarks>
yes

[10:22:05.0000] <othermaciej>
well, JS numbers are all floats anyway

[10:22:06.0000] <Hixie>
(not to mention the general disaster that floats give you)

[10:22:07.0000] <Hixie>
but ok

[10:22:08.0000] <KevinMarks>
and video frames are actually 30000/1001 per second in the US

[10:23:00.0000] <othermaciej>
television video signals, yes

[10:23:01.0000] <othermaciej>
thus the wonder that is smpte drop frames

[10:23:02.0000] <Hixie>
to be honest i wasn't seeing seeking to precise frames and audio samples as a feature with demand

[10:23:03.0000] <Hixie>
all the seeking i've seen happen seems to just be for scrub bars

[10:23:04.0000] <KevinMarks>
and chapters

[10:23:05.0000] <othermaciej>
we'd like something that can at least be extended to pro-type applications in the future

[10:24:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
I need to write up something on chapters

[10:24:01.0000] <othermaciej>
even if it doesn't handle them in the HTML5 version

[10:24:02.0000] <KevinMarks>
HTML EDLs?

[10:24:03.0000] <othermaciej>
we had a vague comment on chapters in our open issues list

[10:24:04.0000] <Hixie>
lord, i hope y'all don't want to reimplement Final Cut Express in HTML

[10:24:05.0000] <KevinMarks>
chapters are a common case for podcasts

[10:25:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
little running order posts with time offsets

[10:25:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I doubt FCE is coming but a simple video editor web app might not be out of the question

[10:25:02.0000] <KevinMarks>
maybe that's a microformat rather than an html 5 feature

[10:25:03.0000] <othermaciej>
or something to review HD video dailies

[10:25:04.0000] <Hixie>
how high can JS Numbers go before they lose too much precision for accurate seeking?

[10:26:00.0000] <othermaciej>
they are IEEE floating point doubles, they can go pretty high

[10:26:01.0000] <Hixie>
k

[10:26:02.0000] <KevinMarks>
they are 64 bit?

[10:26:03.0000] <othermaciej>
52 bit mantissa, 11 bit exponent, 1 bit sign

[10:27:00.0000] <othermaciej>
not sure if that is sufficient even for streaming applications where you leave the stream running for days

[10:27:01.0000] <othermaciej>
but there you don't generally support seeking anyway

[10:27:02.0000] <KevinMarks>
and you have to futz with the samples to stay in sync cos of the 2 clocks problem

[10:28:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
/me is getting fashbacks

[10:28:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't think our proposal is totally ready for the streaming case

[10:28:02.0000] <KevinMarks>
it's marginal anyway...

[10:28:03.0000] <othermaciej>
web video chat?

[10:28:04.0000] <othermaciej>
live broadcasts?

[10:29:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
hm, maybe

[10:29:01.0000] <othermaciej>
internet radio?

[10:29:02.0000] <KevinMarks>
that got killed

[10:30:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
they have indefinite duration

[10:30:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
I think you covered that

[10:30:02.0000] <othermaciej>
if you want 10 digits after the decimal, IEEE double is enough for a 139,461 year long stream

[10:30:03.0000] <othermaciej>
so probably more than enough

[10:31:00.0000] <othermaciej>
we did cover indefinite duration

[10:31:01.0000] <othermaciej>
did not really cover inability to seek or some of the other grungy details

[10:34:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
Hixie, did I show you my example fo a qt movie with chapters?

[10:34:01.0000] <Hixie>
no?

[10:35:00.0000] <othermaciej>
KevinMarks: do you have in mind chapters that exist as metadata in the media file, or external chapters that just link a name to some point in time?

[10:35:01.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: btw did you have a list of names i should add to the acknowledgements of people who wrote your proposal?

[10:35:02.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: I'm not sure they all want to be credited but I'll ask

[10:35:03.0000] <KevinMarks>
http://epeus.blogspot.com/2007/01/iphones-great-step-back-from-ichat.html

[10:35:04.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: k

[10:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: (i generally add anyone who says anything that results in the spec changing, whether the change is what they wanted or not, and whether they want to be associated with the spec or not)

[10:36:01.0000] <Hixie>
right, converted to floats/seconds

[10:37:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
not in the media file. I think specifying them in the html, so that your soft controller can do the chapterlist thing

[10:37:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
maybe they're just a <select>

[10:39:00.0000] <othermaciej>
KevinMarks: but in your example I assume the chapters are in the media file?

[10:39:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
they aren't in apple's media file

[10:40:00.0000] <othermaciej>
for chapters purely in html, you don't really need special support

[10:40:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
I authored them in apple's not-quite xml format, and rendered them into a movie

[10:40:02.0000] <othermaciej>
unless you somehow want to feed them into native controller UI

[10:40:03.0000] <othermaciej>
for chapters in the media file, you want a metadata API to get the names, and to seek to chapter by name

[10:41:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?path=QuickTime%20Player/7.0/en/c3qt20.html

[10:42:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
hm, I think that used to have screenchots in

[10:47:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
here's the timestamp format

[10:47:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
http://developer.apple.com/documentation/QuickTime/RM/ImportExport/DataExchange/F-Chapter/chapter_6_section_7.html

[10:51:00.0000] <othermaciej>
we wanted to put a way to use that timestamp format in the API to specify times

[10:51:01.0000] <othermaciej>
and in the CSS stuff

[10:51:02.0000] <othermaciej>
didn't have time to spec it out before publishing though

[10:52:00.0000] <othermaciej>
(not necessarily the brackets, but the genral idea of a clock time with fractional seconds)

[10:52:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah maybe we need a helper function like atob()

[10:52:02.0000] <Hixie>
ctos() (clock to seconds)

[10:52:03.0000] <othermaciej>
we thought conversion functions back and forth might cut it, yeah

[10:52:04.0000] <Hixie>
ctos('22h33m21s.02')

[10:53:00.0000] <Hixie>
though some people have said they need to be able te specify exact frames in video

[10:53:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I think 22:33:21:0.02 is more legible

[10:53:02.0000] <Hixie>
for which that wouldn't work

[10:53:03.0000] <Hixie>
either's fine

[10:53:04.0000] <othermaciej>
for exact frames you basically need a frame number, since some formats have variable-duration frames

[10:53:05.0000] <Hixie>
(the h/m/s/. format has the advantage of allowing you to omit seconds)

[10:54:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
dear god, what is that xml format it exports?

[10:54:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[10:55:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
http://homepage.mac.com/kevinmarks/macworld2007.txt is the text version

[10:55:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
which could map to HTML cleanly IMO

[10:55:02.0000] <KevinMarks>
http://homepage.mac.com/kevinmarks/macworld2007.xml is a total rats nest

[10:57:00.0000] <othermaciej>
yeah, with colons you can only omit from the larger unit

[10:57:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
timeScale="30" s the key

[10:57:02.0000] <othermaciej>
but that is generally ok

[10:57:03.0000] <othermaciej>
it is also more likely to be what you want to display to the user

[10:57:04.0000] <othermaciej>
though I guess Date already has format capabilities

[10:58:00.0000] <Hixie>
in this locale, at least

[10:58:01.0000] <Hixie>
in french locale, 7h20m10s is quite common

[10:58:02.0000] <Hixie>
at least for wallclock

[10:58:03.0000] <KevinMarks>
is the interval version of Date in javascript?

[10:58:04.0000] <othermaciej>
JavaScript Dates are absolute times, not time intervals

[10:59:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't think there is a way to represent a time interval, other than a number

[11:01:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
there is in 8601 iirc

[11:01:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me tries not be too snide when replying to a message motivated by failure to comprehend Apple's lawyer talk

[11:01:01.0000] <hsivonen>
seriously, software and Web design people should learn to parse lawyer speak

[11:02:00.0000] <Hixie>
8601 isn't a standard

[11:02:00.0000] <hsivonen>
this working around of patent ghosts where there's no reason to work around is silly

[11:02:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3339.html

[11:02:02.0000] <KevinMarks>
then

[11:02:03.0000] <Hixie>
it's the result of a brainstorming session

[11:02:04.0000] <KevinMarks>
though that is only decimal seconds

[11:03:00.0000] <Hixie>
(i'm being facetious, but seriously, who the hell did 8601, it's ridiculous)

[11:03:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
yes, it is a bit overbroad

[11:04:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
rfc3339 is a more sensible subset

[11:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok, behold <audio>.

[11:13:00.0000] <hasather>
hehe: http://my.opera.com/hallvors/blog/2007/03/23/hp-com-no-clue-noscript

[11:14:00.0000] <hsivonen>
wow

[11:15:00.0000] <Hixie>
need to add looping then we can retire Audio()

[11:15:01.0000] <Hixie>
(with new Audio() creating an HTMLAudioElement instead)

[11:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej?

[11:18:01.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: do you know the use case for loopStartTime/loopEndTime?

[11:19:00.0000] <Hixie>
i guess if your audio samples are from one file

[11:20:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: yeah, if you want multiple samples from one file; we also have the possibility of intro and outro besides the looping section but that might be excessive

[11:21:00.0000] <othermaciej>
but at least the lead-in can be useful for some background sound-effects

[11:21:01.0000] <othermaciej>
intro then loop

[11:21:02.0000] <Hixie>
true

[11:21:03.0000] <othermaciej>
loopEndTime is mainly for symmetry

[11:21:04.0000] <Hixie>
so should we have start/end, start/loopStart/end, or start/end/loopStart/loopEnd?

[11:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
or should we do looping simply by providing a cue point api

[11:22:01.0000] <Hixie>
and requiring people to do it themeselves?

[11:23:00.0000] <othermaciej>
programmatic looping is more likely to glitch

[11:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
audio.addCuePoint(93.3, function () { audio.seek(12.0); });

[11:23:02.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[11:23:03.0000] <Hixie>
true

[11:23:04.0000] <othermaciej>
especially if you are discarding buffers, or for audio

[11:23:05.0000] <othermaciej>
for audio especially even dropping one sample (at a very high sample rate) can audibly glitch

[11:23:06.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[11:24:00.0000] <othermaciej>
CuePoint sounds like a better name than TimeTrigger (which is what we had)

[11:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
cool, i'll use CuePoint then (i think i have CueMark in the comments right now)

[11:24:02.0000] <Hixie>
how about semi-declarative cue points, as in audio.addAutoSeekCuePoint(99.3, 12.0)

[11:24:03.0000] <Hixie>
i guess that wouldn't do finite looping

[11:24:04.0000] <Hixie>
ok so we need something

[11:25:00.0000] <Hixie>
start/end/loopStart/loopEnd, i guess

[12:07:00.0000] <tylerr>
hsivonen: We need a <legal> tag that auto-parses. ;)

[12:09:00.0000] <hendry>
"Leading the Forefront - with IRC ! ?" lol

[12:10:00.0000] <tylerr>
:-)

[13:05:00.0000] <othermaciej>
good morning

[13:25:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
othermaciej: morning

[13:45:00.0000] <othermaciej>
hello zcorpan_ 

[14:08:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: there are three IDs "video" in the spec

[14:09:00.0000] <krijnh>
Still?

[14:10:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
yes

[14:17:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
"Perhaps not, but this will: applet { display: none !important; }" LOL

[14:31:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
/me updated html5-elements


2007-03-24
[17:08:00.0000] <Philip`>
Does anyone know if there's been work on relatively comprehensive tests for parts of <canvas>, more than the random collections on Hixie's and Anne's and Opera's sites?

[17:09:00.0000] <Philip`>
I don't pretend to know what I'm doing, but I played around a bit with some tests for the first testable feature and found a case that gives six different results between four implementations and [my interpretation of] the spec

[17:09:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Which feature is that?

[17:09:02.0000] <Philip`>
so it seems like it could be a fruitful direction, if it's not repeating other people's work

[17:10:00.0000] <Philip`>
Just width/height

[17:11:00.0000] <Philip`>
(particularly when setting it to invalid values)

[17:11:01.0000] <Philip`>
(...which isn't very relevant in practice, but at least it's easy to test :-) )

[17:12:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
i don't know of any tests other than hixie's and anne's

[17:12:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
on <canvas>

[17:13:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I did some tests for Opera, but those were just to see which features were buggy during early implementation

[17:13:01.0000] <Dashiva>
They're probably long gone

[17:14:00.0000] <Philip`>
Ah, okay

[17:15:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://tc.labs.opera.com/html/canvas/ has a few more (~135), but that's the most I've found

[17:15:01.0000] <othermaciej>
we have some in the WebKit layout tests

[17:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
re the video states, i understand the proposed states

[17:21:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://trac.webkit.org/projects/webkit/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/fast/canvas - that looks like them

[17:21:01.0000] <Hixie>
i just need to look at them closely to see if the current proposal can be made better :-)

[17:21:02.0000] <othermaciej>
it wasn't obvious to me at first why some were needed

[17:21:03.0000] <Hixie>
taking into account everyone's feedback, etc

[17:21:04.0000] <othermaciej>
which is why I offered

[17:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
well e.g. ERROR could easily be merged with UNINITIALIZED, it doesn't have to be a separate state

[17:22:01.0000] <Hixie>
ERROR is an event, not a state

[17:22:02.0000] <Hixie>
it's a failure to enter another state.

[17:23:00.0000] <othermaciej>
part of the reason for the states is so that you can catch up if you attach a controller to an already in-use element

[17:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
sure

[17:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
you don't need ERROR for that

[17:24:01.0000] <othermaciej>
a controller would want to know if something hasn't started loading yet, or tried and failed

[17:24:02.0000] <Hixie>
i don't understand the use case for that particular one

[17:24:03.0000] <Hixie>
when would you have a controlled join something and then itself decide to start playback if nothing else had?

[17:25:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I mean for display, not for deciding to play

[17:25:01.0000] <othermaciej>
"haven't loaded anything" would presumably show different UI than "tried to load this and it broke"

[17:25:02.0000] <Hixie>
when would you have a controller join a video element and then display a generic error message?

[17:25:03.0000] <Hixie>
i can't imagine a case where that would happen

[17:26:00.0000] <othermaciej>
well, if you could have one join after the fact at all, you need to be able to represent the current state of the element enough to continue

[17:27:00.0000] <othermaciej>
maybe currentSrc being empty or not is enough to distinguish UNITIALIZED from ERROR, but that's a little weird

[17:27:01.0000] <Hixie>
i could see one join in order to catch cue points for advertising, but i couldn't see that controller care about error state vs not loaded state

[17:27:02.0000] <Hixie>
currentSrc wouldn't be initialised either

[17:27:03.0000] <Hixie>
there was an error

[17:27:04.0000] <Hixie>
thus there's no currentSrc

[17:28:00.0000] <othermaciej>
so in case of error you couldn't even tell what you tried and failed to load

[17:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
the error is almost certainly going to have been that you couldn't load anything in the first place

[17:28:02.0000] <Hixie>
but anyway

[17:28:03.0000] <Hixie>
like i said

[17:28:04.0000] <Hixie>
i need to look at this

[17:28:05.0000] <Hixie>
i haven't specced anything yet

[17:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
one possible solution is to have the state be STOPPED, but to have a lastError attribute

[17:29:01.0000] <Hixie>
(or UNINITIALISED, though i hate typing that)

[17:30:00.0000] <othermaciej>
STOPPED implies that it is what a media control "stop" button would put you in, which does not seem right to me (though most media controls these days don't even have stop really, just pause)

[17:36:00.0000] <Lachy>
UNINITIALISED is a bad name, the webkit proposal actually spells it UNINITIALIZED

[17:41:00.0000] <Lachy>
does the load() method need to be called by a script before the video will begin downloading?

[17:41:01.0000] <Hixie>
play() calls load() in the current proposal

[17:42:00.0000] <Lachy>
ok

[17:42:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I would expect auto-loading to be a more desired use case than load-on-demand

[17:43:00.0000] <Lachy>
how much space is the UA supposed to allocate to the video before it's begun loading it?

[17:43:01.0000] <Lachy>
without height and width attrs

[17:44:00.0000] <othermaciej>
you could use CSS, but we also proposed width and height attrs (in part for the before-it's-loaded case, and in part because you want a way to size that excludes controls)

[17:44:01.0000] <Lachy>
there are cases where autoloading isn't desired by the user

[17:45:00.0000] <Hixie>
(current spec doesn't yet define autoload="", but note that so for we've read requests for numerous users asking to NOT have load on demand, and only requests from authors asking for it)

[17:46:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Kid looks nice.

[17:46:01.0000] <othermaciej>
having autoload be UA behavior instead of script leaves open the possibility of a UA preference

[17:46:02.0000] <Hixie>
regarding sizing, we'll have default size, css will size the content area, controls will be a pseudo or something, and i have to go

[17:46:03.0000] <Hixie>
bbl

[17:46:04.0000] <Lachy>
zcorpan_, what kid?

[17:46:05.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't think a UA could reasonably have a pref to ignore an explicit .load() call from script

[17:46:06.0000] <zcorpan_>
http://www.kid-templating.org/

[21:56:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
/me updated http://simon.html5.org/test/html/embedded/ to match current spec

[22:09:00.0000] <Lachy>
zcorpan_, we should add SVG to those tests

[22:09:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
Lachy: is it any different from application/xml?

[22:10:00.0000] <Lachy>
the XML you've used is XHTML, which isn't an image.  SVG is.

[22:10:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
so svg should work with <img>?

[22:10:02.0000] <Lachy>
SVG should render inside <img>

[22:11:00.0000] <Lachy>
it should render in all of them

[22:12:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
what is svg? any xml with the root svg:svg?

[22:13:00.0000] <Lachy>
yes

[22:13:01.0000] <Lachy>
well, you should check the SVG spec to be sure

[22:15:00.0000] <othermaciej>
svg should have an image/svg+xml mime type

[22:15:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't think <img> should render application/xml with an SVG root element

[22:15:02.0000] <Lachy>
does it need that MIME type to work in <img>?

[22:15:03.0000] <othermaciej>
of course at present no browser renders SVG in <img>

[22:16:00.0000] <othermaciej>
we had experimental code to do it in WebKit but it is off for now

[22:16:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I think MIME type should be the trigger, yes, you should not have to parse just to know whether to display

[22:17:00.0000] <Lachy>
hmm. I guess switching on the MIME is more efficient in this case

[22:18:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
so xhtml as image/svg+xml should render in <img>?

[22:18:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
or would that be an invalid image, and thus fallback would be used?

[22:19:00.0000] <Lachy>
it should render the fallback.  What happens with image/png using somehting that isn't an image?

[22:21:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
well, it will try to parse it as png or gif or jpeg or other supported image formats, if that fails render fallback

[22:21:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
but svg is just xml

[22:22:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
so you'd have to check the root element anyway

[22:22:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
no?

[22:22:02.0000] <othermaciej>
zcorpan_: SVG can legitimately include xhtml content

[22:22:03.0000] <zcorpan_>
oh sure

[22:22:04.0000] <zcorpan_>
but what if the root is not svg:svg?

[22:23:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I dunno

[22:23:01.0000] <othermaciej>
is that illegal per the MIME type?

[22:23:02.0000] <Lachy>
then it's another type of XML that includes SVG

[22:23:03.0000] <othermaciej>
if you send application/xhtml+xml and have a different namespace element as the root, should that not render?

[22:23:04.0000] <Lachy>
the root element determines the host langugage

[22:23:05.0000] <othermaciej>
in, say, an iframe?

[22:23:06.0000] <Lachy>
othermaciej, yes

[22:23:07.0000] <othermaciej>
the mime type determines what Document interfaces are present

[22:24:00.0000] <othermaciej>
so there might be legit reasons to use one that does not match your root element

[22:24:01.0000] <Lachy>
really?  I thought the API was determined by the actual element used

[22:24:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
is there a spec for svg in <img>?

[22:25:00.0000] <Lachy>
not a good one

[22:25:01.0000] <Lachy>
HTML4 says <img> is for use with any image type, and lists a few examples like GIF and JPG

[22:26:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
othermaciej: i thought the idea was as of html5 that the document would implement all interfaces supported, e.g. both HTMLDocument asd SVGDocument if the browser supports both HTML and SVG

[22:27:00.0000] <othermaciej>
zcorpan_: I do think we should do that, though I'm not sure HTML5 calls for it

[22:27:01.0000] <Lachy>
zcorpan_, are the interfaces compatible?

[22:27:02.0000] <othermaciej>
though I have not read super thoroughly

[22:29:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
2.1. Documents

[22:29:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
"Document objects must also implement the document-level interface of any other namespaces found in the document that the UA supports. For example, if an HTML implementation also supports SVG, then the Document object must implement HTMLDocument and SVGDocument."

[22:30:00.0000] <Lachy>
what if the 2 APIs define methods or properties with the same name, but which do different things

[22:31:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Lachy: I don't think they do at present, and presumably in such a case we would beat SVG WG over the head with a cluebat

[22:31:01.0000] <Lachy>
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cimg%20src%3D%22http%3A//hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/svg/shapes/path/001.xml%22%20height%3D%22400%22%20width%3D%22400%22%20alt%3D%22FAIL%22%3E%0A%3Ciframe%20src%3D%22http%3A//hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/svg/shapes/path/001.xml%22%20height%3D%22400%22%20width%3D%22400%22%3EFAIL%3C/iframe%3E%0A%3Cembed%20src%3D%22http%3A//hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/svg/shapes/path/001.xml%22%20he

[22:31:02.0000] <Lachy>
ight%3D%22400%22%20width%3D%22400%22%3E%3C/embed%3E%3Cnoembed%3EFAIL%3C/noembed%3E%0A%3Cobject%20data%3D%22http%3A//hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/svg/shapes/path/001.xml%22%20height%3D%22400%22%20width%3D%22400%22%3E%3C/object%3E

[22:32:00.0000] <Lachy>
the SVG working group have done some stupid things in SVG.  Who knows what they might do

[22:33:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Lachy: they would probably take feedback from HTML WG more seriously than from individuals

[22:33:01.0000] <othermaciej>
because they are all procedural like that

[22:33:02.0000] <Lachy>
I heard they ignored feedback from the CSS WG, regarding some incompatibilites with their use of font-size

[22:40:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
if we want svg to work in <img>, we need a spec for how it should work

[22:41:00.0000] <Lachy>
it should be addressed in HTML5

[22:41:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
yeah

[22:43:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
should it be able to run scripts? should scripts be able to access the parent document? what happens if the dom is modified so that the root is no longer svg:svg?

[22:43:01.0000] <Lachy>
good question

[22:53:00.0000] <othermaciej>
zcorpan_: (1) I don't think there should be any requirement on the root element, just the MIME type

[22:54:00.0000] <othermaciej>
zcorpan_: (2) I don't think user events should be passed in

[22:54:01.0000] <othermaciej>
zcorpan_: not sure about animation and scripting

[22:54:02.0000] <othermaciej>
zcorpan_: I am inclined to say to declarative SMIL animations and no to scripting

[22:54:03.0000] <othermaciej>
my 2c anyway

[22:54:04.0000] <othermaciej>
Lachy: I'm on the SVG WG now, so I can beat them from within if needed

[22:55:00.0000] <othermaciej>
although I hope olliej can do most of the dirty work and I can just register needed Formal Objections

[22:56:00.0000] <zcorpan>
so what happens with xhtml as image/svg+xml? render it or use fallback?

[22:58:00.0000] <othermaciej>
render it

[22:58:01.0000] <zcorpan>
ok

[22:58:02.0000] <othermaciej>
or generic xml as image/svg+xml

[22:58:03.0000] <othermaciej>
I know that is kind of crazy

[22:58:04.0000] <othermaciej>
but if SVG is allowed at all, you can already do <svg:svg><svg:foreignObject><html:whatever...>...

[22:59:00.0000] <othermaciej>
so ruling out other root elements does not achieve much, unless you ban foreignObject in SVG as IMG

[22:59:01.0000] <othermaciej>
ideally you also want SVG to work for CSS background images

[22:59:02.0000] <othermaciej>
we had code for that but it's off for now

[23:00:00.0000] <zcorpan>
but when the svg is root it's still defined how it should render as an image... having xhtml as a background image doesn't make sense

[23:01:00.0000] <othermaciej>
how is it more or less defined based on root?

[23:03:00.0000] <zcorpan>
svg says how to render svg images, and if it includes xhtml as fogeignObject doesn't affect the image's width/height etc

[23:04:00.0000] <othermaciej>
where does svg say how to render svg images?

[23:05:00.0000] <zcorpan>
dunno, i haven't read the svg spec carefully, but if it doesn't, what does it say?

[23:05:01.0000] <othermaciej>
it doesn't say how to render SVG in an html <img> as far as I know

[23:06:00.0000] <othermaciej>
no spec does

[23:06:01.0000] <othermaciej>
or as a CSS background image

[23:06:02.0000] <zcorpan>
indeed

[23:06:03.0000] <zcorpan>
but it says how svg images should render in general, ignoring <img>

[23:06:04.0000] <zcorpan>
right?

[23:06:05.0000] <othermaciej>
it says how SVG should render

[23:07:00.0000] <othermaciej>
when processed as a top-level XML document

[23:07:01.0000] <othermaciej>
but of course, xhtml+css already say that for xhtml

[23:09:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hmm, i guess you could specify a width and height of <html> and let it happily render as a background image, but i thought the intent was that document formats like html shouldn't work as backgrounds in css

[23:18:00.0000] <othermaciej>
yes, well, it's hard to draw bright lines

[23:19:00.0000] <othermaciej>
SVG WG would say that SVG isn't an image, it's an animation

[23:19:01.0000] <othermaciej>
even when static

[23:19:02.0000] <othermaciej>
so they wouldn't even want that as a background image

[23:19:03.0000] <zcorpan>
animated gifs work fine as backgrounds, fwiw

[23:20:00.0000] <zcorpan>
both opera and firefox render xhtml as image/svg+xml in <embed> (and run scripts)

[23:25:00.0000] <othermaciej>
<embed> is pretty free-wheeling

[23:25:01.0000] <othermaciej>
but in general browsers don't compare root element to server-reported mime type

[23:27:00.0000] <zcorpan>
you're right, i thought however we didn't want to render xhtml as backgrounds in css, and thus it would be required to check the root element. the mime could then be any xml, not just image/svg+xml

[23:29:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I think keying off the mime type and letting people cheat is ok

[23:29:01.0000] <zcorpan>
is it expensive to check the root?

[23:40:00.0000] <othermaciej>
well, you have to fire up the XML parser and let it run and know to bail out at some point

[23:40:01.0000] <othermaciej>
not that expensive but you go much deeper than purely by MIME type

[23:41:00.0000] <othermaciej>
here's the MIME type regsitration for image/svg+xml, you figure it out: http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-SVGMobile12-20050413/mimereg.html

[23:41:01.0000] <othermaciej>
"Because SVG is extensible, conformant "image/svg+xml" processors must expect that content received is well-formed XML, but it cannot be guaranteed that the content is valid to a particular DTD or Schema or that the processor will recognize all of the elements and attributes in the document."

[23:42:00.0000] <othermaciej>
it's pretty vague

[23:43:00.0000] <zcorpan>
yeah... pretty much "this is xml"

[23:45:00.0000] <zcorpan>
thing is if you allow xhtml to be rendered as background, how should repeated backgrounds be handled, etc? can you interact with <input>s? while it may be more expensive to check the root you get less cases you have to define

[23:46:00.0000] <zcorpan>
if it will be discarded then authors won't use it, so you can expect all xml as <img> or background to be svg anyway...

[00:10:00.0000] <webben>
i should think xhtml should be rendered in backgrounds, since xhtml is one way of including text in svg

[00:11:00.0000] <webben>
as for controls, i would render them as static backgrounds

[00:11:01.0000] <webben>
(assuming we're talking background-image here)

[00:13:00.0000] <zcorpan>
if you can render xhtml as a background, why not text/html too? text/plain?

[00:14:00.0000] <webben>
zcorpan, i'd have no objection to either

[00:14:01.0000] <webben>
zcorpan, but i don't think people are likely to use text/plain

[00:14:02.0000] <webben>
(no way to apply css to it, so the look is /totally/ unpredictable)

[00:16:00.0000] <webben>
basically i think anything can be a background, but it should be non-interactive

[00:16:01.0000] <zcorpan>
i don't think text/html should be usable as a background (as it is today in css)

[00:17:00.0000] <webben>
why?

[00:17:01.0000] <zcorpan>
it doesn't make sense

[00:17:02.0000] <webben>
how come?

[00:18:00.0000] <webben>
(i mean i agree one's unlikely to /want/ to use it, but that's different)

[00:18:01.0000] <zcorpan>
because it's a document with semantics, something you would apply css *to*

[00:20:00.0000] <webben>
AFAIK SVG can be a document with semantics which you apply CSS too as well, separating content (e.g. a diagram, buttons, text) from presentation.

[00:20:01.0000] <webben>
hence http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/styling.html

[00:20:02.0000] <zcorpan>
yes. hence, using svg as a background is slightly bogus too :P

[00:21:00.0000] <othermaciej>
SVG at least *can* be used as a vector graphics format

[00:21:01.0000] <webben>
well, what one's really saying is make an image from this.

[00:21:02.0000] <othermaciej>
and the web could use a scalable vector format for use in images

[00:21:03.0000] <webben>
i don't see anything intrinsically wrong about making an image from anything

[00:21:04.0000] <othermaciej>
WebKit supports PDF for that, but PDF is surprisingly bloated

[00:22:00.0000] <othermaciej>
even simple PDFs are huge

[00:23:00.0000] <webben>
by definition if used as a background then the semantics are irrelevant clientside

[00:23:01.0000] <webben>
(although they might be relevant serverside, e.g. i18n of colors in a SVG graphic)

[00:51:00.0000] <Lachy>
allowing any format to be used as a background would be a nightmare for implementors

[00:51:01.0000] <othermaciej>
allowing SVG to be used as a background is a nightmare

[00:51:02.0000] <othermaciej>
but it's still useful

[00:52:00.0000] <Lachy>
even if it did make sense (which it doesn't), why would anyone want to use text/html, etc. as an image?

[00:52:01.0000] <webben>
Lachy, I dunno. Basically just requires the ability to fake a screenshot of displayed content.

[00:52:02.0000] <Lachy>
I realise SVG has implementation issues too, but it at least has a use case

[00:52:03.0000] <webben>
as screen capture type programs seem common, it doesn't sound like a huge nightmare

[00:54:00.0000] <webben>
Lachy, I'm not arguing anyone would want to. But they might possibly wish to use svg+xhtml, which amounts to something similar

[00:54:01.0000] <webben>
more to the point, if you can solve the probs with svg as background, then i think the text/html probs would be easy to resolve in the same way

[00:54:02.0000] <Lachy>
so the browser would have to render it, produce an image out of it and then use the resulting image as a background.  That seems like a huge performance issue

[00:55:00.0000] <Lachy>
but why would it be worth the time of implementors trying to solve it, when no one will ever use it?

[00:55:01.0000] <webben>
Lachy, why is it different to SVG ... which the browser also has to render and produce a static image from?

[00:56:00.0000] <webben>
Lachy, I suspect we should be speccing support for a subset of formats for backgrounds, and allow implementors to support additional formats if they choose.

[00:56:01.0000] <webben>
text/html should be one of those additional formats

[00:57:00.0000] <webben>
my point is just that SVG actually has text/html's problems anyway

[00:57:01.0000] <webben>
and that svg+xhtml probably should be part of speced support

[00:58:00.0000] <Lachy>
I agree with SVG, but until there are use cases for other formats, arguing about whether or not they can or should be supported is pointless

[00:59:00.0000] <webben>
Lachy, well zcorpan was arguing in the opposite direction (you can't support text/html, therefore not xhtml either)

[01:00:00.0000] <webben>
but xhtml can be part of svg content

[01:06:00.0000] <othermaciej>
man, I love watching people try to educate Eric Carlsson about media

[01:07:00.0000] <Lachy>
othermaciej, who's Eric Carlsson?

[01:07:01.0000] <othermaciej>
he's probably forgotten more about media than they ever knew

[01:08:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I misspelled his name though

[01:08:01.0000] <othermaciej>
one s

[01:09:00.0000] <Lachy>
ok, still don't know who he is

[01:09:01.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: are you referring to seeking over HTTP?

[01:10:00.0000] <othermaciej>
longtime QuickTime developer

[01:11:00.0000] <othermaciej>
that's the thread I was reading just now

[01:12:00.0000] <Lachy>
which mailing list? URL?

[01:12:01.0000] <Lachy>
oh, found his emails

[01:13:00.0000] <webben>
The ability to separate content from presentation in background graphics formats should ultimately help make authoring more accessible, so it's not all bad.

[01:14:00.0000] <webben>
(or perhaps i should say: form from style)

[01:16:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
 Eric Rocks

[01:16:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
seeking over HTTP?

[01:16:02.0000] <KevinMarks>
hm

[01:25:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/vorbis-dev/2001-October/004846.html

[01:29:00.0000] <hsivonen>
a general problem with media files is that they are hairy and there's little expertise outside the group of actual implementors

[01:29:01.0000] <hsivonen>
so I wouldn't be too harsh on someone getting something wrong once in a while

[01:35:00.0000] <othermaciej>
it's ok to be mistaken based on lack of expertise, but not so much to be persistent about an error

[01:35:01.0000] <hsivonen>
sure

[01:35:02.0000] <othermaciej>
Silvia Pfeiffer is apparently a media expert of sorts however, per google

[01:46:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
OK, replied to that

[01:48:00.0000] <othermaciej>
wow, QuickTime vs Ogg circa 2001

[01:49:00.0000] <othermaciej>
KevinMarks: did you and I ever both work at Apple at the same time?

[01:49:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
Ogg owes more to WMV than to QT

[01:49:02.0000] <KevinMarks>
I was there 1998 to 2003

[01:49:03.0000] <othermaciej>
I started in 2001

[01:49:04.0000] <othermaciej>
so quite a while

[01:50:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I guess you must have been there when Safari came out then

[01:50:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
yes, though I was more on the hardcore video stuff by then

[01:53:00.0000] <hsivonen>
this whole thing with Ogg family vs. MPEG-4 family isn't about technical merit but about patentlessness merit.

[01:53:01.0000] <hsivonen>
and patentlessness trumps technical merit

[01:53:02.0000] <hsivonen>
as with Huffman coded JPEG vs. arithmetic coded JPEG

[01:54:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
thats not the level I was arguing on

[01:54:01.0000] <othermaciej>
we're not debating technical merit of Ogg

[01:54:02.0000] <KevinMarks>
well, I was

[01:54:03.0000] <othermaciej>
oh

[01:54:04.0000] <KevinMarks>
Both ogg and QT can intheory include arbitrary codecs

[01:54:05.0000] <othermaciej>
I see your mail now

[01:55:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
however, QT can do it in practice too

[01:55:01.0000] <hsivonen>
s/patentlessness/only having RF-licensed or chronically unenforced patents/

[01:55:02.0000] <KevinMarks>
So QT with JPEG video and u-law audio would satisfy you?

[01:56:00.0000] <hsivonen>
KevinMarks: no. there has to be some level of technical suitability as well

[01:56:01.0000] <othermaciej>
QT isn't patentless, is it?

[01:57:00.0000] <hsivonen>
but sadly, royalty-free and not so efficient has to win over royalty-bearing and more efficient as the baseline format

[01:57:01.0000] <othermaciej>
(thought Apple has the only patents so in theory could donate them)

[01:57:02.0000] <KevinMarks>
the file format is as long as you leave out the pointless hint tracks

[01:57:03.0000] <webben>
what are hint tracks?

[01:57:04.0000] <othermaciej>
are there any other patents relevant to the MPEG-4 container format?

[01:58:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I know it is based on QT's format but no one has yet explained to me what is different

[01:58:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
which Singer patented, then watched Apple lawyers destroy interop by suing the 2 other server makers

[01:58:02.0000] <KevinMarks>
Singer can tell you

[01:58:03.0000] <KevinMarks>
broadly, C strings instead of P strings in several places

[01:58:04.0000] <KevinMarks>
and some extra headers that override the QT ones

[01:59:00.0000] <hsivonen>
FWIW, when Electronic Frontier Finland (EFFI, like EFF) gave recommendations about video formats for the Web, I was the principal author and the two formats we recommended were Ogg/Theora/Vorbis on licensing grounds and MP4/H.264/AAC on standard/installed base/quality combo grounds

[01:59:01.0000] <othermaciej>
too bad there is not one format that meets all those criteria

[02:00:00.0000] <hsivonen>
oh, and besides patents, there's another consideration in Theora's favor

[02:00:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
There is a plausible argument that Vorbis and Theora are unchallenged on licensing grounds because no-one big enough to be worth suing has adopted them

[02:00:02.0000] <hsivonen>
H.264 has an insane repertoire of profiles and levels

[02:00:03.0000] <hsivonen>
whereas with the currents impls if you say Theora, it is Theora

[02:01:00.0000] <hsivonen>
but QuickTime won't play all H.264

[02:01:01.0000] <webben>
hmm that does sound like a big advantage

[02:01:02.0000] <hsivonen>
and PSP and iPod play even less

[02:01:03.0000] <KevinMarks>
certainly when I was at Apple, my many attempts to get Vorbis into QT were rebuffed because of fears that Fraunhofer or Dolby would sue us

[02:01:04.0000] <webben>
keep things simple

[02:01:05.0000] <hsivonen>
and figuring the parameters out without it being your dayjob is *hard*

[02:01:06.0000] <othermaciej>
it's not that big, because you can pick a subset of H.264 profiles if you want

[02:02:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Simple and Advanced Simple are probably good enough

[02:02:01.0000] <hsivonen>
KevinMarks: the manager of Nokia's Maemo operation said that they are afraid of shipping Vorbis until their own people investigate whether there's some Fraunhofer stuff in there after all

[02:03:00.0000] <webben>
Maybe the key is to make sure that whatever formats we spec support for, the most obvious people who might sue should sign up to the WHATWG patent policy

[02:03:01.0000] <othermaciej>
people at Apple are still worried about Ogg patent risk

[02:04:00.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: I assure you, that interoperating with QuickTime is *hard* if you don't have documented parameters that someone else has spent hours and hours testing

[02:04:01.0000] <hsivonen>
with e.g. x264 that is

[02:04:02.0000] <othermaciej>
interoperating in what way?

[02:04:03.0000] <webben>
othermaciej, from being sued by who?

[02:04:04.0000] <othermaciej>
encoding something qQuickTime can play?

[02:05:00.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: using QuickTime as a decoder for stuff encoded using encoders that can potentially use optional features not supported by QuickTime

[02:05:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
who was it who submarined an mp3 patent on microsoft recently?

[02:05:02.0000] <othermaciej>
webben: lots of people have patents on audio/video codecs, and no one knows all the ones they exist or what they might apply to

[02:05:03.0000] <hsivonen>
Alcatel/Lucent

[02:06:00.0000] <othermaciej>
it's true that you'd have to define an H.264 profile set and not just the codec family

[02:06:01.0000] <othermaciej>
like 3GPP does

[02:06:02.0000] <KevinMarks>
see, phone companies a) have a lot of patents b) have a lot of lawyers and c) are getting desperate for revenue

[02:06:03.0000] <hsivonen>
I'm sorry to say, but I got a feeling like QuickTime was like the Internet Explorer of MPEG-4

[02:06:04.0000] <hsivonen>
when trying to interoperate, that is

[02:06:05.0000] <webben>
othermaciej, Well yes. I can see that. But do you mean Apple is worried about /any/ external format? Or are there special fears peculiar to Ogg?

[02:07:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
thats a little unfair, especially when the alternative is DiVX

[02:08:00.0000] <hsivonen>
KevinMarks: well, the DivX and XviD stuff is uncool in the sense that they don't use ISO packaging

[02:08:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
what they do with mp3 framing is particularly ugly as I recall

[02:08:02.0000] <hsivonen>
but anyway, the profiling and levels of H.264 are bad, bad, bad

[02:09:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
but yes Apple should do a better job of playing stuff back anyway

[02:09:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
/me has perian installed

[02:11:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I would like it if a Mac could play all video formats commonly found on the web out of the box

[02:12:00.0000] <webben>
o/t: indeed, it would be nice if Apple could licence the Windows Media stuff and distribute OSX with all that stuff preinstalled.

[02:13:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
when Apple first did mpeg4 I said that it wsn't done until it played divx avi's

[02:13:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
however I was ignored

[02:14:00.0000] <webben>
it's rather weird since free *nix'es get criticized for not being desktop ready for not playing these formats as distributed.

[02:16:00.0000] <othermaciej>
wow, http://www.apple.com/quicktime/ is down

[02:16:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
it's up for me

[02:17:00.0000] <othermaciej>
it's alive now

[02:17:01.0000] <othermaciej>
that was weird

[02:19:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
akamai glitch?

[02:19:01.0000] <othermaciej>
could be

[02:23:00.0000] <Lachy>
I like Dean's idea of renaming <source> to <content>, it's a much better name

[02:24:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
no it isn't

[02:24:01.0000] <Lachy>
why not?

[02:24:02.0000] <KevinMarks>
content implies containment

[02:24:03.0000] <KevinMarks>
or happiness

[02:25:00.0000] <Lachy>
<content src> implies the content can be retrieved from the given location

[02:26:00.0000] <othermaciej>
if we have both a sequence of items and alternative items, I'd like it if the element names reflected that

[02:26:01.0000] <othermaciej>
if you wanted to overengineer it you could have both playlists and alternative lists which could nest each other

[02:26:02.0000] <Lachy>
<alt> is also better choice

[02:26:03.0000] <KevinMarks>
I liked your alt stuff maciej

[02:27:00.0000] <Lachy>
I'm not sure we need a way to markup playlists in HTML

[02:27:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
yes we do

[02:27:02.0000] <Lachy>
we have XSPF and a number of other playlist formats

[02:27:03.0000] <othermaciej>
some current uses of video want to play two videos in a row

[02:27:04.0000] <KevinMarks>
and it's called <li>

[02:28:00.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: uses other than playing an ad from a different file first/last?

[02:28:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I'm not really sure <li> is good, as I suggested there, because it would render a list marker in non-<video> user agents

[02:28:02.0000] <hsivonen>
(though ads pay for stuff, so they are important)

[02:28:03.0000] <KevinMarks>
audio playlists are more common

[02:28:04.0000] <othermaciej>
hsivonen: first, last, between segments

[02:28:05.0000] <othermaciej>
it might not be needed, I dunno

[02:29:00.0000] <othermaciej>
but you can definitely do a smoother transition if you cue up the next item before the current one finishes

[02:29:01.0000] <KevinMarks>
playing ads is a crappy usecase

[02:29:02.0000] <Lachy>
it's a popular one though

[02:29:03.0000] <othermaciej>
on the one hand, kinda, on the other hand, I'd rather people play ads using HTML than using Flash

[02:29:04.0000] <othermaciej>
if they are going to do so anyway

[02:29:05.0000] <KevinMarks>
you are confusing common with popular there

[02:29:06.0000] <Lachy>
yes, sorry

[02:30:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
IE is common, Firefox is popular

[02:30:01.0000] <hsivonen>
:-)

[02:30:02.0000] <KevinMarks>
replace IE and Firefox with your own alt-cred badge of honour

[02:30:03.0000] <othermaciej>
well if you put it like that, I don't want to be common

[02:31:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
I choose my words very carefully...

[02:32:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
“10 percent of computer users are Mac users, but remember, we are the top 10 percent.” - Douglas Adams

[02:32:01.0000] <othermaciej>
hah

[02:32:02.0000] <othermaciej>
only the top 5 percent these days

[02:32:03.0000] <othermaciej>
or 6

[02:32:04.0000] <othermaciej>
depending on which survey you believe

[02:33:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
has cameo been getting to you again?

[02:34:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
when we were inventing XSPF  argued for it being HTML then

[02:35:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
Actually,  i think there may be a broader use case than just playlists for a well-defined alternatives container

[02:35:01.0000] <Lachy>
This site uses javascript to let the user create their own play list of news videos (requires IE, sorry mac users) http://ninemsn.video.msn.com/v/en-au/v.htm

[02:36:00.0000] <Lachy>
it also plays an ad before the video

[02:38:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
You know, it's a shame Apple didn't patent popping up annoying ads up before playing the video; that would have discouraged everyone else...

[02:48:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
and we could then have rejected that usecase

[02:51:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
o O (hm, lets set up an organisation to patent things we don't want in standards)

[02:52:00.0000] <othermaciej>
we could call it MPEG FU

[02:57:00.0000] <met_>
whatwg.org has database problem http://forums.whatwg.org/ http://blog.whatwg.org/ doesn't work

[02:58:00.0000] <met_>
'mysql_connect() () Lost connection to MySQL server during query' 

[02:59:00.0000] <Lachy>
I'm not able to lget anything, it's still trying to load

[03:00:00.0000] <Lachy>
the wiki is down too

[03:00:01.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, yt?

[03:10:00.0000] <annevk>
I think that if you want to support SVG in <img> you probably have to support everything as image

[03:10:01.0000] <annevk>
including HTML, etc.

[03:11:00.0000] <othermaciej>
hello annevk 

[03:11:01.0000] <annevk>
Though I think an initial implementation could do a check on the root element to just support SVG or something...

[03:11:02.0000] <othermaciej>
supporting svg in image opens the door to html in one way or another

[03:11:03.0000] <othermaciej>
but that doesn't mean you have to accept text/html

[03:12:00.0000] <annevk>
Well, you'd already support XHTML so supporting text/html... But yes, you wouldn't have to

[03:12:01.0000] <othermaciej>
even with an svg root element you can easily just fill it with a 100% by 100% foreignObject containing HTML

[03:12:02.0000] <annevk>
(And regarding the Document stuff. Both HTMLDocument and SVGDocument have a .title member.)

[03:13:00.0000] <othermaciej>
are they incompatible?

[03:13:01.0000] <othermaciej>
hmm

[03:13:02.0000] <Lachy>
hmm. it does seem like trying to turn <img> into <object>, which isn't a good idea

[03:13:03.0000] <othermaciej>
I guess they have different rules for where to get the title

[03:13:04.0000] <othermaciej>
that sucks

[03:13:05.0000] <annevk>
Lachy, no, you wouldn't support scripting etc. I think

[03:13:06.0000] <annevk>
othermaciej, I think they can be made compatible in some way

[03:14:00.0000] <annevk>
maybe by doing a check on the root element or something

[03:14:01.0000] <Lachy>
annevk, that would need to be defined.  But if that is, then could <foreignObject> be ignored too?

[03:15:00.0000] <Lachy>
maybe the SVG working group should define a subset of SVG that UAs would need to support for use in <img> and CSS backgrounds, that excludes all the problematic stuff

[03:16:00.0000] <annevk>
That doesn't make sense for UAs

[03:16:01.0000] <othermaciej>
compatibility with HTML/CSS has not been that high on their list of priorities

[03:16:02.0000] <annevk>
Maybe for authors, but not for UAs

[03:16:03.0000] <othermaciej>
I am a member of the SVG WG now

[03:16:04.0000] <annevk>
Because UAs would be forced to render SVG in some different way depending on the context...

[03:16:05.0000] <othermaciej>
but I don't know if I will have time to make them do anything

[03:16:06.0000] <Lachy>
yeah, true

[03:16:07.0000] <annevk>
othermaciej, I saw, I hope you'll be controversial :)

[03:16:08.0000] <othermaciej>
olliej joined too

[03:17:00.0000] <othermaciej>
annevk: aren't I always?

[03:17:01.0000] <annevk>
:)

[03:17:02.0000] <Lachy>
othermaciej, if they never planned on being compatible with HTML/CSS, then how do they expect SVG to be adopted on a wide scale?

[03:17:03.0000] <othermaciej>
Lachy: by replacing HTML for all uses

[03:17:04.0000] <Lachy>
ha!

[03:18:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I'm slightly parodying their position

[03:18:01.0000] <othermaciej>
but not by much

[03:18:02.0000] <annevk>
They do want to replace CSS I believe for layout stuff

[03:18:03.0000] <annevk>
I saw some things on www-svg iirc talking about layout systems in SVG etc.

[03:19:00.0000] <hsivonen>
aargh. they really should focus on expressing the PDF imaging model in XML and leave it at that

[03:19:01.0000] <hsivonen>
I wonder if MARS has sane text/font support kludged into SVG

[03:20:00.0000] <annevk>
The W3C was initially against presentational formats and now they're doing it all over again with SVG...

[03:20:01.0000] <annevk>
Well, if they proceed with that plan anyway.

[03:20:02.0000] <annevk>
"SVG is the new <font>." would be my headline the day that happens.

[03:21:00.0000] <hendry>
annevk: nice

[03:21:01.0000] <met_>
Lachy database on whatwg.org works now

[03:23:00.0000] <othermaciej>
SVG already has text/font support kludged into itself

[03:23:01.0000] <othermaciej>
doesn't need any additiona kludging

[03:27:00.0000] <annevk>
Oh right, SVG fonts...

[03:27:01.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: the problem with SVG's text is that it is the worst of both worlds (both being CSS and PDF)

[03:27:02.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: no interop

[03:27:03.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: OTOH, the PDF approach is actually interoperably implementable

[03:27:04.0000] <annevk>
Maybe we should introduce scripted fonts by means of a <canvas-font> element

[03:28:00.0000] <othermaciej>
hsivonen: unless you define all your own fonts in SVG!

[03:28:01.0000] <annevk>
/me wonders if a <script> can mutate the font on the fly

[03:28:02.0000] <othermaciej>
I agree though, SVG text is not so great

[03:28:03.0000] <annevk>
in SVG

[03:28:04.0000] <othermaciej>
annevk: that depends on if their spec carefully defined the conformance requirements for dynamic updating

[03:28:05.0000] <othermaciej>
what do you think the odds of that are?

[03:29:00.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: I thought SVG fonts are not per-glyph positioned by the generator but the interglyph layout is still left to the renderer

[03:31:00.0000] <othermaciej>
hsivonen: you define the glyphs, advances and kerning pairs, not sure what freedom that leaves to the renderer

[03:31:01.0000] <hsivonen>
with all the CTL stuff these days, there are two approaches that work for text in graphics: 1) standardising on the binary blob renderer implementation or 2) the generator sending an array of glyphs and the exact glyph positions

[03:32:00.0000] <hsivonen>
#1 doesn't work, because none of Microsoft, Apple and Adobe wants to freeze their renderer and share the source

[03:32:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I'm happy that in HTML you get to compete on text rendering quality

[03:32:02.0000] <hsivonen>
it works for HTML

[03:33:00.0000] <hsivonen>
but not for graphics where the text layout and the graphics need to coincide

[03:33:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I haven't actually seen an SVG where it is a practical problem

[03:33:02.0000] <othermaciej>
but I guess textArea is new and more potentially problematic

[03:33:03.0000] <hsivonen>
I have

[03:33:04.0000] <hsivonen>
Jacques Distler has use cases as usual

[03:33:05.0000] <othermaciej>
SVG does let you individually position each glyph if you want

[03:34:00.0000] <hsivonen>
also, in the summer, I tried to publish a diagram as SVG myself

[03:34:01.0000] <othermaciej>
although you can't control the rasterization of the glyphs (unless you are using an SVG font, and even then, only to the extent that path rendering is defined)

[03:34:02.0000] <hsivonen>
the only way to get sane results would have been converting text to paths

[03:35:00.0000] <othermaciej>
surprisingly, the SVG spec is not precise enough to tell you what bitmap results from displaying a particular SVG file at a particular size, even without any text involved

[03:35:01.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: is it just antialiasing or something bigger?

[03:35:02.0000] <hsivonen>
bézier tesselation?

[03:36:00.0000] <othermaciej>
antialiasing and filters are two of the obvious issues

[03:36:01.0000] <hsivonen>
I'd expect implementations to want to be able to compete on anti-aliasing implementation details and performance

[03:37:00.0000] <met_>
annevk, do you know why <input type="number"> is different in Opera on Mac than on PC? On Mac it is missing the buttons Up/Down

[03:37:01.0000] <othermaciej>
method of scaling embedded raster images also not defined

[03:38:00.0000] <annevk>
met_, no

[03:39:00.0000] <met_>
annevk, just making some examples of WF2 and found this difference

[03:39:01.0000] <met_>
annevk, same for <input type="time">

[03:40:00.0000] <annevk>
maybe it's because on the Mac we're tied to native widgets or something?

[03:40:01.0000] <annevk>
I haven't done much UI testing

[03:40:02.0000] <othermaciej>
it's weird to me that WF2 has so many date/time controls and none for credit cards

[03:41:00.0000] <met_>
it's the only lack I have found

[03:41:01.0000] <annevk>
Actually, most of what we did went into technical testing

[03:41:02.0000] <othermaciej>
I know which I've had to input more times into web forms

[03:41:03.0000] <webben>
othermaciej, hmm ... but don't CC formats differ

[03:41:04.0000] <webben>
(e.g. codes on the back, expiry dates, start dates etc)

[03:42:00.0000] <webben>
and might they not change even more in the future?

[03:42:01.0000] <Lachy>
met_, I get the up/down buttons in Opera on Mac

[03:42:02.0000] <annevk>
I think those are pretty standard at the moment

[03:42:03.0000] <met_>
Lachy, what Opera version?

[03:42:04.0000] <othermaciej>
yes, most credit card inputs have at least three bits, the actual number, the security code, and the expiration date

[03:42:05.0000] <annevk>
otherwise I wouldn't be able to use my credit card accross the globe...

[03:43:00.0000] <Lachy>
credit cards are handled with <input type=text pattern=...>

[03:43:01.0000] <annevk>
Lachy, that doesn't help with auto-input by the UA

[03:43:02.0000] <othermaciej>
how does that let the UA put up a list of my credit cards instead of a text field?

[03:43:03.0000] <Lachy>
fine, <input role="credit-card"> ;-)

[03:43:04.0000] <annevk>
<input type=cc>

[03:43:05.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: hey, don't reinvent the eCom RFC!

[03:44:00.0000] <annevk>
prolly eCom could be used I suppose

[03:44:01.0000] <annevk>
giving meaning to name attribute values...

[03:44:02.0000] <hsivonen>
RFC 3106

[03:45:00.0000] <Lachy>
oh, sure, that RFC has been a huge success in the real world!

[03:45:01.0000] <hsivonen>
immense

[03:45:02.0000] <Lachy>
oh, </sarcasm>

[03:45:03.0000] <webben>
why has it failed?

[03:45:04.0000] <annevk>
Opera supports it iirc

[03:45:05.0000] <Lachy>
webben, do you know of any sites that use it?

[03:46:00.0000] <annevk>
I believe sites use it too, not entirely sure which though

[03:46:01.0000] <webben>
Lachy, No, I don't mean "hasn't it succeeded?" I mean /why/ has it failed.

[03:46:02.0000] <hsivonen>
webben: few people know about it. and the names are really ugly and non-obvious too

[03:47:00.0000] <hsivonen>
this one of those namespacing things

[03:47:01.0000] <webben>
one could solve problem 1 be mentioning it on the WHATWG microformat wiki

[03:47:02.0000] <Lachy>
I think microformats should come up with a way of identifying specific form semantics

[03:47:03.0000] <hsivonen>
can't standardize name='creditcard' because someone might use that field name for telephone numbers

[03:47:04.0000] <webben>
the namespacing seems non-problematic but the inconsistency is annoying: Ecom_BillTo_Postal_CountryCode

[03:47:05.0000] <othermaciej>
using class would be better than name

[03:47:06.0000] <webben>
note the weird use of underscores

[03:48:00.0000] <othermaciej>
you also want to relate the different controls that are related to one credit card

[03:48:01.0000] <annevk>
in that case we might as well use the type attribute

[03:48:02.0000] <othermaciej>
but <input type="something"> seems better when you may want a custom control though

[03:48:03.0000] <othermaciej>
having a non-heuristic way to identify related username and password fields on login and registration forms would be cool too

[03:48:04.0000] <webben>
a custom control that does what?

[03:49:00.0000] <annevk>
enables semantics the UA can use

[03:49:01.0000] <annevk>
for input and validation

[03:49:02.0000] <othermaciej>
the UA might be able to store your credit cards in secure storage

[03:49:03.0000] <othermaciej>
like the Keychain on Mac OS X

[03:49:04.0000] <othermaciej>
and let you pick one

[03:50:00.0000] <othermaciej>
instead of making you type

[03:50:01.0000] <webben>
oh i thought you meant a widget that looks different

[03:51:00.0000] <webben>
you'd still want additional fields for the other bit of the credit card

[03:51:01.0000] <webben>
so we really mean "creditcardnumber"

[03:51:02.0000] <othermaciej>
it might look different too, who knows

[03:51:03.0000] <annevk>
it doesn't really matter how you call it

[03:52:00.0000] <othermaciej>
anyway, now's not the time to make such suggestions

[03:52:01.0000] <annevk>
expiry date is <input type=month>

[03:52:02.0000] <annevk>
not sure about the three digit number, maybe <input type=password>

[03:52:03.0000] <othermaciej>
you would want to link it to the credit card number

[03:53:00.0000] <webben>
the problem is really that you need different sets of data for different cc's

[03:53:01.0000] <othermaciej>
field

[03:53:02.0000] <othermaciej>
so when you pick a credit card it can fill all three

[03:53:03.0000] <othermaciej>
(maybe not the 3-digit code, for security reasons)

[03:53:04.0000] <annevk>
that could be done through some extension i suppose

[03:53:05.0000] <othermaciej>
anyway if I were really proposing it I would work it out in more detail

[03:53:06.0000] <webben>
if we want fields linked together a microformat seems the way to go

[03:53:07.0000] <annevk>
there have been some suggestions for grouped fields

[03:54:00.0000] <othermaciej>
webben: you want them to be linked w/o constraining markup containership

[03:54:01.0000] <othermaciej>
microformats are bad at that, since there's no widely applicable HTML attribute that accepts an id of a related element

[03:55:00.0000] <hsivonen>
sadly, so far, rel='license' and XFN are the only microformats that are approachable without a longtime investment in gathering tacit knowledge inside the microformats community

[03:55:01.0000] <annevk>
yeah, too bad

[03:55:02.0000] <webben>
othermaciej, what's the usecase for not containing these controls in the same fieldset?

[03:55:03.0000] <othermaciej>
I wish they would write specs with meaningful conformance requirements and such

[03:56:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me too

[03:56:01.0000] <met_>
Lachy, just upgraded Opera to last weekly build and Up/Down are here, thanks

[03:56:02.0000] <webben>
well, one could make such specs a requirement for registering microformats with the WHATWG wiki

[03:56:03.0000] <annevk>
oh ok

[03:56:04.0000] <annevk>
cool

[03:56:05.0000] <webben>
and provide a spec template

[03:56:06.0000] <annevk>
prolly was a known issue then :)

[03:57:00.0000] <hsivonen>
webben: I think the microformats spec template is part of the problem

[03:57:01.0000] <hsivonen>
webben: usually the frustration comes when you take away the boilerplate and see what is left

[03:57:02.0000] <webben>
hsivonen, Do you mean a) having a template is bad; or b) that template is bad?

[03:58:00.0000] <hsivonen>
webben: the microformats wiki template is

[03:58:01.0000] <hendry>
cd

[03:58:02.0000] <hendry>
woops, wrong terminal

[03:58:03.0000] <webben>
well, WHATWG could improve on it

[03:58:04.0000] <webben>
maybe one could also require a conformance checker?

[03:59:00.0000] <Lachy>
microformats have a spec template?

[03:59:01.0000] <hsivonen>
webben: haha. good luck with that.

[04:00:00.0000] <webben>
hsivonen, Or, alternatively, maybe require an implemented reader for that format?

[04:01:00.0000] <webben>
(of course that works better for data formats than humanities ones)

[04:01:01.0000] <hsivonen>
webben: I specifically made sure I don't promise anyone that I'd implement an hCard or hCal checker, because I couldn't figure out what the conformance requirements are

[04:01:02.0000] <hsivonen>
webben: not good enough

[04:01:03.0000] <hsivonen>
webben: hint: RSS

[04:01:04.0000] <Lachy>
hsivonen, there aren't any conformance criteria.

[04:01:05.0000] <webben>
/me doesn't get the hint

[04:01:06.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: whoo! implementation done :-)

[04:02:00.0000] <hsivonen>
webben: do with RSS whatever Radio Userland does is not good enough

[04:02:01.0000] <Lachy>
microformats seem to just describe what class names can be used with vague descriptions of their meaning, not specify how they should be used

[04:02:02.0000] <webben>
ah I see

[04:02:03.0000] <Lachy>
it's like XHTML2!

[04:03:00.0000] <webben>
well, HTML5 is also wary of telling agents what to do.

[04:03:01.0000] <Lachy>
HTML5 has very specific processing requirements

[04:03:02.0000] <webben>
for parsing, sure

[04:03:03.0000] <Lachy>
it doesn't define things like specific UIs

[04:03:04.0000] <webben>
doesn't XML have specific processing requirements in that sense too?

[04:04:00.0000] <annevk>
webben, it defines specific processing requirements for all things

[04:04:01.0000] <annevk>
not just parsing

[04:04:02.0000] <webben>
i'm not sure what we mean by "processing" here

[04:04:03.0000] <annevk>
At least, to me it's clear what Opera should implement (unless a part of the spec is not done)

[04:05:00.0000] <hsivonen>
webben: XML doesn't spec tree construction from the parse. it is implied

[04:06:00.0000] <annevk>
(and if it's unclear I mostly e-mail the list, although that's not the sole reason I e-mail the list)

[04:06:01.0000] <webben>
well, i suppose two things would be very useful with a microformat spec: define what fields must be present + suggest default styles (if any) for all currently speced CSS media types

[04:07:00.0000] <webben>
much the same as with HTML elements

[04:07:01.0000] <annevk>
that doesn't help much

[04:07:02.0000] <annevk>
it needs to define what happens when things are in error too

[04:08:00.0000] <annevk>
or when not all required fields are present, etc.

[04:08:01.0000] <webben>
hmm ... that's true

[04:08:02.0000] <webben>
well, one can't really extract data if not all required fields are present

[04:09:00.0000] <annevk>
that doesn't negate my argument

[04:10:00.0000] <webben>
you mean the spec needs to say whether to display the content or display an error?

[04:10:01.0000] <webben>
one could define a sane default for microformat treatment

[04:10:02.0000] <webben>
or maybe for unrecognized microformats

[04:11:00.0000] <webben>
and include erroneous ones in that treatment

[04:11:01.0000] <webben>
that would reduce the burden on spec creators

[04:12:00.0000] <annevk>
errors are almost the wrong solution (except in script)

[04:12:01.0000] <annevk>
read the HTML5 spec for an idea of what it could say

[04:17:00.0000] <webben>
well, should WHATWG require such definitions for wiki inclusion?

[04:17:01.0000] <annevk>
the wiki stuff is just an experiment at this point

[04:18:00.0000] <annevk>
HTML5 itself doesn't even define what happens with competing class values

[05:12:00.0000] <annevk>
apparently we're old school: http://natalian.org/archives/2007/03/23/invasion-of-the-invited-experts/

[05:14:00.0000] <Lachy>
heh

[05:15:00.0000] <annevk>
for a bunch of students who weren't around when HTML4 evolved that's quite funny

[05:16:00.0000] <Lachy>
I started getting into the web around the time HTML4 came out, so I'm kind of old school, but not really old

[10:14:00.0000] <annevk2>
/me wonders how error handling works for <img> with APNG...

[10:16:00.0000] <annevk>
as in, what would it do for the error event and how would it effect .complete

[10:16:01.0000] <Dashiva>
For UAs that don't support it?

[10:17:00.0000] <annevk>
the APNG spec itself is pretty vague about the subject: http://wiki.mozilla.org/APNG_Specification#Error_Handling

[10:17:01.0000] <annevk>
Dashiva, that's prolly clear

[10:17:02.0000] <annevk>
but not really relevant as I'd expect all UAs to adopt this

[10:18:00.0000] <Dashiva>
APNG looks like a regular PNG with lots of trash data to non-supporting ones, as I understand it

[10:19:00.0000] <Dashiva>
So you're thinking it errors during the animation, and how the UA should handle that?

[10:19:01.0000] <annevk>
yes

[10:20:00.0000] <Dashiva>
As I see it, the apng spec defines internal error handling: display the default image if animation fails. Displaying the default image is then displaying the APNG according to spec, and not an error as far as the document is concerned

[10:33:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Hm, nobody replied to the call for a versioning doctype on public-html. Remarkable restraint :)

[10:35:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Dashiva: there are issues with what he says anyway… he talks about a SGML dialect of HTML5, and seeming we're not writing a delta spec…

[10:57:00.0000] <annevk>
versioning is silly on the web

[10:59:00.0000] <annevk>
as such, i don't want to get into silly versioning debates every other week

[10:59:01.0000] <annevk>
/me wonders whether the guy who posted actually knows why doctypes are useful himself - as they're not

[10:59:02.0000] <Lachy>
oh gosh, the abbr vs. acronym debate has started on www-html now too!

[11:00:00.0000] <annevk>
/me isn't subscribed to www-html anymore

[11:01:00.0000] <Lachy>
it's not too high volume, sometimes it's entertaining to see what the XHTML2 WG are up to

[11:01:01.0000] <annevk>
oh, I do read it

[11:01:02.0000] <annevk>
well, the threads with interesting titles

[11:02:00.0000] <annevk>
XHTML2 is better followed on w3c-html-wg (member only) though and soonish on public-xhtml2 I suppose

[11:02:01.0000] <Lachy>
ah, well I'll have to subscribe to that one when I get access

[11:03:00.0000] <annevk>
you can't, but you can download the mboxes or read it through the online interface

[11:03:01.0000] <Lachy>
mboxes?

[11:04:00.0000] <annevk>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/mboxes/ for instance

[11:04:01.0000] <Lachy>
oh, I see. that's member only too

[11:04:02.0000] <annevk>
interesting

[11:05:00.0000] <annevk>
the URI architecture of the W3C site is confusing

[11:05:01.0000] <annevk>
it's cool in the sense that they actually keep them all working, but still...

[11:06:00.0000] <Lachy>
yeah, that's cool, though some of the really old ones are dead

[11:07:00.0000] <annevk>
gsnedders, http://php-html5lib.dashslot.net/trac/browser/trunk/src requires silly access to view the source code...

[11:07:01.0000] <annevk>
gsnedders, "FILE_VIEW privileges are required to perform this operation"

[11:07:02.0000] <annevk>
(the files in that directory, I mean)

[11:08:00.0000] <gsnedders>
annevk: work now?

[11:09:00.0000] <annevk>
gsnedders, yeah, cool

[11:16:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Hixie is a rather cunning fellow

[11:17:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Shooting my poor little green guys by blending into the darkness

[11:17:01.0000] <met_>
http://glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?2007/03/24/3375-html-wg-fun

[11:18:00.0000] <annevk>
help

[11:19:00.0000] <annevk>
oh well :)

[11:19:01.0000] <Dashiva>
I don't get which part of it is the fun

[11:20:00.0000] <Lachy>
Dashiva, I downloaded that game earlier to try it out.  He told me about it once before, but never actually tried it

[11:20:01.0000] <Lachy>
I'm still trying to learn the rules

[11:21:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I've got the rules down, I'm working on how to play

[11:21:01.0000] <Dashiva>
In my first game, I focused too much on surviving, but you don't get any points for that...

[11:30:00.0000] <annevk>
/me wonders why <audio> doesn't request Ogg Vorbis to be supported

[11:33:00.0000] <Lachy>
Dashiva, did you play against the computer first, or against real people?

[11:33:01.0000] <Lachy>
annevk, Vorbis is already a SHOULD requirement for video, there's no need to state it again for audio

[11:34:00.0000] <annevk>
/me doesn't think that's obvious

[11:40:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Lachy, annevk: Hixie said he was taking up the shared media interface apple's suggestion had. Could Vorbis be associated with that one, maybe?

[11:40:01.0000] <annevk>
he already did

[11:40:02.0000] <annevk>
and yes, I suppose...

[11:42:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Lachy: I did the tutorial, then a game with the guy who keeps putting up "play this if you're a newbie" challenges

[11:43:00.0000] <Lachy>
I only played the first level against the computer

[11:43:01.0000] <Lachy>
are you sure it wasn't Hixie you played against?  He said he was looking for newbies

[11:45:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Yeah, it's Wolff's Flying Tigers doing it

[13:52:00.0000] <annevk>
/me sort of agrees with <html version=5> for validation purposes

[13:52:01.0000] <annevk>
otherwise it seems quite pointless

[13:53:00.0000] <annevk>
but even validation evolves...

[13:56:00.0000] <othermaciej>
when HTML6 comes out, even if it's 100% compatible, it won't be the case that valid HTML6 is valid HTML5 if it adds anything at all

[13:56:01.0000] <othermaciej>
so I guess I agree there

[13:58:00.0000] <Dashiva>
The main use I see for versioning is archaeology, if someone decides they want to parse an archaic HTML 3.2 document 50 years from now

[13:59:00.0000] <Dashiva>
For practical use, I don't see any browsers keeping parsers for older versions around

[14:01:00.0000] <othermaciej>
browsers don't currently have parsers for older versions

[14:18:00.0000] <hsivonen>
aargh. versioning again and conformance checking as an excuse

[14:18:01.0000] <hsivonen>
I guess I should say something after a night's rest

[14:19:00.0000] <othermaciej>
sorry to feed the flames, I just don't actually get entirely why not versioning is good

[14:19:01.0000] <othermaciej>
to be fair, other people also raised profiling as an excuse

[14:20:00.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: if HTML6 is so badly designed that *it* needs to be distinguished from HTML5, then HTML6 should have a version flag. HTML5 shouldn't pre-emptively

[14:21:00.0000] <hsivonen>
and when HTML6 is out, authors should check new documents against it

[14:21:01.0000] <othermaciej>
hsivonen: I'm not sure it would be bad design - if any new elements or attributes are added, or the content model of any element is made looser, then you can't check an HTML6 document against an HTML5 checker

[14:21:02.0000] <hsivonen>
so if someone wants to deliberately check against HTML5 once HTML6 is current, it is reasonable to make them jump though a pop-up menu hoop

[14:22:00.0000] <othermaciej>
if it also deprecates HTML5 elements or attributes then vice versa would apply

[14:22:01.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: well, the checkers would have to be updated to be HTML6 checkers once HTML6 is out

[14:22:02.0000] <gsnedders>
how many people here validate against HTML 3.2?

[14:22:03.0000] <othermaciej>
can we promise that all valid HTML 5 will remain valid HTML n for all future values of n?

[14:23:00.0000] <jkj2>
Hi, specifying version is especially important for HTML/XHTML editing tools, not for validation

[14:23:01.0000] <hsivonen>
if there's a good reason to deprecate something in HTML6, surely the burden of choosing something from an override pop-up should be on those who insist on using the deprecated stuff?

[14:23:02.0000] <gsnedders>
I think we mark something as a different version when there is need, when it isn't backwards compatible. HTML5 is backwards compatible, so there is no issue

[14:23:03.0000] <othermaciej>
gsnedders: HTML 4 is itself 10 years old

[14:23:04.0000] <gsnedders>
othermaciej: I'm well aware

[14:24:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't think versioning is very important, just not sure how people expect this to work with validation

[14:24:01.0000] <hsivonen>
jkj2: assuming that you want to artificially limit your authoring tool to a subset of what the authoring tool can support

[14:24:02.0000] <othermaciej>
"choose from a pop-up" or "link to a different validator url" seems reasonable

[14:24:03.0000] <gsnedders>
I think it's not enough just for validation

[14:24:04.0000] <othermaciej>
I can't believe it's 10 years old

[14:25:00.0000] <gsnedders>
it's a problem for the validator, to allow validating against an obsolete spec, how you add a UI

[14:25:01.0000] <othermaciej>
no new HTML standard for a decade

[14:25:02.0000] <gsnedders>
10 years seems so long for me… but I'm only 14 years old :P

[14:25:03.0000] <hsivonen>
jkj2: as far as the editor use case goes, the discussion reduces to the RELAX NG schema PI discussion

[14:26:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I think (X)HTML5 should not limit what PI you put on top to give guidance to your editor

[14:27:00.0000] <gsnedders>
why does it matter that much for the editor anyway?

[14:27:01.0000] <gsnedders>
how is the editor different from any other UA?

[14:27:02.0000] <jkj2>
hsivonen: if you are using some variant/version of HTML -- for example subset known to work on mobile devices or in your company CMS -- you want your editor to not to generate "unsupported" markup

[14:27:03.0000] <hsivonen>
gsnedders: suppose you have a CMS that bans you from including forms and you want to configure your editor to remove form features from the auto-complete options

[14:28:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jkj2: right. but that's the PI discussion. and I think the (X)HTML5 spec should neither forbid nor require such a PI

[14:29:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jkj2: BTW, I think the CMS case is legitimate but mobile profiles are a no-no in the WHATWG philosophy

[14:31:00.0000] <jkj2>
hsivonen: PI is not solution, because it links to particular schema. Schema selection should be possible to do in indirect way. Namespace + @version is good enough. NVDL can already assign schema based on namespace, and it is likely it will be extended to support namespace + attribute value dispatching.

[14:32:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jkj2: would you allow user-defined values in the version attribute, then?

[14:32:01.0000] <hsivonen>
version='foobar-cms-subset'

[14:32:02.0000] <jkj2>
hsivonen: I suppose that WHATWG and W3C philosophies will be merged somehow (if this is even possible) in HTML-WG

[14:32:03.0000] <hsivonen>
a priori prescribed modules and version subsets don't work

[14:32:04.0000] <annevk>
/me would be entirely fine with having no versioning whatsoever

[14:33:00.0000] <hsivonen>
if someone wants to subset XHTML5 in a non-prescribed way, they will

[14:33:01.0000] <jkj2>
sure, something like http://www.docbook.org/tdg5/en/html/ch05.html#s-notdocbook

[14:33:02.0000] <annevk>
/me was previously convinced validation was a usecase (when CSS2 versus CSS2.1 was debated iirc)

[14:33:03.0000] <hsivonen>
enumerating permitted subsets normatively in advance is pointless

[14:34:00.0000] <annevk>
I'm not sure what the use of normative profiles is anyway

[14:34:01.0000] <hsivonen>
precedent: XHTML Mobile Profile does not follow the Modularization module boundaries but does its own thing

[14:34:02.0000] <jkj2>
I'm not enumarating anything. There should be just same basic syntax for content of version attribute

[14:34:03.0000] <jkj2>
s/same/some/

[14:35:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jkj2: so this version attribute vs. a PI between you and your editor is about whan NVDL can dispatch on?

[14:35:01.0000] <annevk>
/me is convinced that we don't need to worry about versioning until HTML6 and that even then it's unlikely to be an issue

[14:36:00.0000] <annevk>
(as it would just point out a problem with HTML5 if there was a usecase)

[14:36:01.0000] <jkj2>
annevk: you are forgetting about XHTML serialization, aren't you?

[14:36:02.0000] <annevk>
no

[14:36:03.0000] <annevk>
that's handled by the namespace

[14:37:00.0000] <jkj2>
You expect that XHTML5 will have different namespace then XHTML 1?

[14:37:01.0000] <annevk>
no

[14:37:02.0000] <annevk>
XHTML1 still requires some silly DOCTYPE

[14:37:03.0000] <annevk>
so if you really want to distinguish that should be possible

[14:37:04.0000] <jkj2>
So, how you will recognize XHTML 1 from XHTML 5?

[14:37:05.0000] <hsivonen>
jkj2: a browser doesn't need to.

[14:37:06.0000] <annevk>
is this about browsers?

[14:38:00.0000] <jkj2>
I'm not talking about browser, browser doesn't take care.

[14:38:01.0000] <annevk>
/me thought we already agreed that versioning is only relevant for conformance checkers (if it's relevant)

[14:38:02.0000] <hsivonen>
jkj2: an online conformance checker in the common case should be able to assume XHTML5 (unless the user manually overrides), because an online checker is an authoring aid and new authoring should use XHTML5 once it is out

[14:38:03.0000] <jkj2>
annevk: and content creation tools

[14:39:00.0000] <annevk>
content creation doesn't need to care about versions

[14:39:01.0000] <hsivonen>
jkj2: with content creation tools, you'd use a tool-specific PI if the tool wants to see one

[14:39:02.0000] <annevk>
it should just create content that fits the target audience

[14:39:03.0000] <annevk>
anyway, got to go

[14:39:04.0000] <jkj2>
hsivonen: so if I will use three different tools in my toolchain I will use 3 different PIs? Cool

[14:40:00.0000] <jkj2>
hsivonen: Moreover PIs doesn't survive SOAP transport

[14:41:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jkj2: I'd be willing to consider an authoring toolchain that includes SOAP transport badly astronauted

[14:42:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jkj2: and assuming a single PI or a single attribute without a priori enumerated subset names, your three tools will have to know about your particular subset name

[14:43:00.0000] <jkj2>
hsivonen: I'm also not big fan of WS stuff, but you would be surprised what you can see at various customer sites :-(

[14:44:00.0000] <jkj2>
hsivonen: sure, good tool has means of specifying which schema should be used depending on combination od namespace + root element name + attribute value + ...

[14:45:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jkj2: I am less opposed to an optional attribute with user-specified content for the benefit of the users tool chain. I am more opposed to <html version='5'> as a normative requirement or as a solution to a perceived non-problem.

[14:46:00.0000] <hsivonen>
s/users/user's/

[14:46:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Putting the versioning in the document rather than the editor seems backwards to me. The versioning can only work if the editor supports the given version, which means the editor should be the place to choose a version

[14:46:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Dashiva: I also consider polluting the document instance with this stuff ugly

[14:47:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Hello dreamweaver

[14:50:00.0000] <jkj2>
Ugly, backwards -- ok, but many XML based languages specify its version and it works well

[14:52:00.0000] <hsivonen>
works well for what? for schema binding in editors?

[14:53:00.0000] <jkj2>
also, but mainly for language evolution (e.g. XSLT 1.0 & 2.0, XSL-FO 1.0 & 1.1)

[14:54:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I am not familiar enough with the version differences on those cases

[14:55:00.0000] <hsivonen>
are XSLT transformers expected to change their treatment of particularly named elements depending on what version was declared on the root element?

[14:56:00.0000] <hsivonen>
that is, will an XSLT 1.0 transformation execute wrongly on a transformer that implements 2.0 semantics?

[14:56:01.0000] <hasather>
hsivonen: I think so, yes, but I can't remember exactly

[14:56:02.0000] <hsivonen>
(I think I've see warnings to that effect in SAXON 8, but I don't remember the details)

[14:57:00.0000] <hsivonen>
hasather: strikes me as bad design of the new version then (on the face of it without knowing what was changed)

[14:57:01.0000] <jkj2>
XSLT 2.0 implementation will process XSLT 1.0 stylesheet in backward compatibility mode, which is 99,999999999% same as XSLT 1.0 processing

[14:57:02.0000] <hsivonen>
jkj2: why couldn't the last corner cases be made compatible and versioning trashed?

[14:58:00.0000] <jkj2>
complex problems doesn't always have simple solutions

[15:00:00.0000] <hsivonen>
well, if the quirks mode has taught us anything about this issue with HTML, the conclusion should not be that more versioned modes are the solution. the conclusion should be that future versions of HTML and CSS must not make changes that are incompatible with real legacy content

[15:01:00.0000] <jkj2>
In HTML this is not as big problem, because HTML it is expected that unknown elements are ignored. And in case of semantics change, namespace should be changed.

[15:02:00.0000] <hsivonen>
or, rather, the element names, because boiling the whole language is bad

[15:02:01.0000] <hasather>
hsivonen: yea, that would've been bad design, but I might have been wrong about that

[15:03:00.0000] <met_>
XSLT history is much cleaner than HTML big chaos, not sure if HTML can go near it anyway

[15:03:01.0000] <jkj2>
met: you can't change history, of course, but you can prepare for future ;-)

[15:03:02.0000] <hsivonen>
oh, and SAXON 8 is evidence that versioning does not work with XSLT

[15:04:00.0000] <jkj2>
hsivonen: could you explain?

[15:04:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Has there been any discussion about adding crypto stuff to the spec, specifically some kind of common hash algorithm?

[15:04:02.0000] <hsivonen>
since SAXON 8 does not support both XSLT 1.0 and 2.0 but just says that it uses the 2.0 semantics and its your problem if you rely on 1.0 semantics

[15:04:03.0000] <hsivonen>
jkj2: so basically, XSLT versioning goes hand in hand with SAXON versioning

[15:05:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jkj2: if you want XSLT 1.0, you should use SAXON 6. if you want XSLT 2.0, you should use SAXON 8

[15:05:01.0000] <hsivonen>
but SAXON 8 appers not to do semantic switching on the version

[15:06:00.0000] <met_>
hsivonen, don't you mean XSLT 1.1 ?

[15:06:01.0000] <hsivonen>
met_: well, something like that. I looked at this stuff in November

[15:07:00.0000] <met_>
hsivonen,  Saxon > 6 dropped XSLT 1.1, not XSLT 1.0

[15:07:01.0000] <hsivonen>
oh

[15:07:02.0000] <met_>
XSLT was not finished draft, part of history wich was dropped

[15:07:03.0000] <hsivonen>
well, my point stands that XSLT versioning is not a success of switching on a version attribute

[15:07:04.0000] <jkj2>
You use Saxon8 also on XSLT 1.0 stylesheets. You can even mix and match stylesheets modules in XSLT 1.0 and 2.0 together.

[15:08:00.0000] <met_>
met_ correction: XSLT *1.1* was draft

[15:09:00.0000] <jkj2>
hsivonen: you should compare with XSL-FO rather. It's usage is much more closer to HTML. (Some even think that it could replace HTML ;-D)

[15:09:01.0000] <met_>
/me do not think this way 8-)

[15:10:00.0000] <hsivonen>
well, either XSLT doesn't really need versioning, because the versions are compatible. or the versioning story is broken because SAXON tells me it doesn't guarantee that old semantics work. either way, not a versioning success.

[15:10:01.0000] <hasather>
hsivonen: the versions aren't compatible

[15:10:02.0000] <hsivonen>
jkj2: XSL-FO is also a no-no in WHATWG philosophy :-)

[15:11:00.0000] <hasather>
hsivonen: but you can use backwards compatible mode

[15:11:01.0000] <hasather>
btw, XPath may be incompatible even in backwards compatible mode, see http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath20/#id-incompat-in-true-mode

[15:12:00.0000] <hasather>
s/XPath/XPath 2.0/

[15:12:01.0000] <jkj2>
Yes, that's why I have said 99,999999999 instead od 100 % compatible

[15:13:00.0000] <hasather>
jkj2: I see, I wondered what you meant :)

[15:13:01.0000] <hsivonen>
cute. I try to avoid dealing with XSLT too deeply. I switched to SAXON 8 underneath Jing, saw warnings and switched back to SAXON 6 and decided not no use whatever performance goodness SAXON may have obtained in between

[15:15:00.0000] <hsivonen>
s/not no/not to/

[15:15:01.0000] <jkj2>
hsivonen: if you can live without key() function, you can try good old XT from Clark -- it is still fastest for many operations

[15:15:02.0000] <hsivonen>
jkj2: does it support TrAX?

[15:16:00.0000] <hsivonen>
there has to be a reason why Clark himself did not support XT in Jing

[15:16:01.0000] <hsivonen>
only SAXON 6 and Xalan

[15:17:00.0000] <jkj2>
hsivonen: good question -- I don't remember, but it was probably released before TrAX was standardized

[15:20:00.0000] <othermaciej>
if the W3C believes in the Semantic Web so much, why do they keep trying to replace HTML with purely presentation languages like SVG and XSL-FO?

[15:22:00.0000] <jkj2>
XSL-FO is not about Web, it's about print composition. (OK, yes there are features like collapsible menus meant for interactive display, but they were never implemented.)

[15:25:00.0000] <jkj2>
/me have to go

[15:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: same reason they're doing HTML5. The W3C leadership is more influenced by the desires of member companies than by their ideals.

[15:31:00.0000] <Hixie>
(not necessarily a bad thing)

[15:31:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: but a lot of advocates of SVG or XSL-FO are also proponents of things like RDF

[15:33:00.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: separation of semantics and presentation: semantics in RDF and presentiation in XSL-FO :-)

[15:34:00.0000] <othermaciej>
that would be so awesome that I can't even think of anything to say

[15:40:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Where's the behavior? XSLT?

[15:52:00.0000] <tantek>
othermaciej, it's a natural tendency to create as many complex layers as possible so that each member company that has a particular expertise can build and sell a horribly complex solution that is too hard/obtuse for individual developers to build on their own.

[15:53:00.0000] <tantek>
in otherwords, inverses of both the explicit (and implicit) principles behind URL, HTTP, HTML.

[15:54:00.0000] <Dashiva>
OT: Oh man, 6-player lggwg. This is going to take weeks.

[16:05:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Dashiva: the behavior would be in SMIL of course

[16:05:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Oh, right. Silly me.

[16:06:00.0000] <othermaciej>
so the full stack would be to take your RDF and apply an XSLT transform to get XSL-FO + SMIL

[16:06:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Anyone know if there would be licencing issues in including, say, a SHA-1 function in the spec?

[16:08:00.0000] <othermaciej>
as in patent licensing?

[16:08:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't believe SHA-1 is patented

[16:08:02.0000] <Dashiva>
Any kind that would mean trouble for inclusion.

[16:09:00.0000] <Dashiva>
When doing web applications, having a built-in reliable hash function could be useful for some basic security without having to turn to https

[16:13:00.0000] <Philip`>
Would performance be the only benefit of it being built in, compared to using an implementation in JavaScript?

[16:15:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I was actually thinking convenience as the main benefit. And less to download for users, for that matter

[16:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
SHA-1 isn't reliable is it? I thought it had been cracked.

[16:31:00.0000] <Dashiva>
It's cracked in the academic sense

[16:33:00.0000] <othermaciej>
is there a one-way hash that is well tested and doesn't have even theoretical flaws?

[16:34:00.0000] <Philip`>
It's weak enough for people to not recommend its use in the future - http://csrc.nist.gov/hash_standards_comments.pdf says NIST planned to phase out SHA-1 (and similar strength algorithms) by 2010

[16:42:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://www.csrc.nist.gov/pki/HashWorkshop/ is still looking for a better hash function (to be standardised around 2012), but I assume they're still not expecting one with no theoretical flaws - the only known flawless algorithms are only usable in theory

[16:45:00.0000] <othermaciej>
why only usable in theory?

[16:45:01.0000] <othermaciej>
are they too slow to compute?

[16:48:00.0000] <Philip`>
They're ideas like having a man in a box with a lookup table of (message, hash) pairs, and some dice so he can generate hashes for any message you give him that he hasn't seen before

[16:48:01.0000] <hasather>
hehe

[16:49:00.0000] <Philip`>
(as an implementation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_oracle)

[16:51:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Philip`: so basically it depends on having a huge, constantly updated shared secret

[16:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
that's just a centralised dictionary service

[16:52:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Philip`: I was thinking of just strong in the collision resistance sense

[16:52:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Philip`: not the random oracle sense

[16:53:00.0000] <othermaciej>
SHA256 is believed to have good collision resistance still I think

[16:53:01.0000] <nickshanks>
hixie: do you know what percentage of IMG elements have a longdesc attribute ?

[16:54:00.0000] <nickshanks>
random oracle == http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random  :-)

[16:55:00.0000] <nickshanks>
"The Outerbridge Crossing is a cantilever bridge over the Arthur Kill connecting Perth Amboy, New Jersey with Staten Island, New York." see, i learnt something new ;-)


2007-03-25
[17:03:00.0000] <Philip`>
othermaciej: It seems the best existing hash functions are still only 'good enough' in terms of collision resistance, and nobody has come up with a theoretically perfect one that is still practical - SHA-256 is good enough for now, but it'll probably be warned against in ten years, and they'll have to come up with new ones to last a few more decades after that

[17:05:00.0000] <Philip`>
...But I suppose I could be misreading "doesn't have even theoretical flaws" as being "doesn't have even the theoretical possibility of having any theoretical flaws", rather than "doesn't have any known theoretical flaws" (which current hash functions would satisfy)

[17:05:01.0000] <othermaciej>
yeah, I meant the latter

[17:06:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I am not sure it's possible to prove collision resistence in the sense that there is no way to beat the brute force attack

[17:06:01.0000] <Dashiva>
How about saying "Not flawed enough to be practically broken for the next five years"

[17:07:00.0000] <othermaciej>
that's impossible to predict

[17:08:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Well, assuming no quantum computers or other sudden major changes in computing power

[17:18:00.0000] <Philip`>
You could prove collision resistance in the sense that there's no better attack than brute force, and you can prove that for random oracles, and it seems to be a useful property (despite the unavoidable property that some inputs must collide); but no practical algorithm is (or ever will be?) that good, so it's not a very useful point :-)

[19:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
nickshanks: not many, and most that do have it have the blank value, iirc. but ask me again on friday if you want me to get you good numbers.

[19:28:00.0000] <Lachy>
good morning

[19:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
ih

[19:28:02.0000] <Hixie>
hi even

[19:28:03.0000] <nickshanks>
hixie: i will. what is happening between now and friday, another survey?

[19:30:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, I found some broken things on your web site.  These images are served as text/plain;charset=UTF-8, so not even content sniffing works

[19:30:01.0000] <Lachy>
http://ln.hixie.ch/media/diagrams/evolution/

[19:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
nickshanks: no, csswg meeting, i won't be in my office until then

[19:37:01.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: oops

[19:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
fixed.

[19:38:01.0000] <Lachy>
cool

[19:38:02.0000] <nickshanks>
oh, shame. I'd love to see an update of code.google.com/webstats

[19:38:03.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[19:38:04.0000] <Hixie>
so would i

[19:38:05.0000] <Hixie>
but i'm too busy with whatwg and htmlwg to do something like that now

[19:39:00.0000] <nickshanks>
can you not just re-run the scripts from the first time, on some machine you're not using?

[19:39:01.0000] <nickshanks>
i'm sure there's a few eight-core intel Core 3's lying around GoogleHQ :)

[19:41:00.0000] <Lachy>
does anyone know if, in gmail, there's a way to delete thousands of e-mails all at once, instead of 20 at a time?

[19:42:00.0000] <othermaciej>
hello Hixie

[19:42:01.0000] <Hixie>
nickshanks: um. try to estimate how much time it would take to run a survey on a few billion documents.

[19:42:02.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: hi

[19:43:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: hyatt is definitely coming to the CSSWG meeting, I could come to part of one day if you think it would be useful

[19:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
it would be cool if you could come to hte tuesday dinner

[19:43:02.0000] <Hixie>
it's at zibibbo's, google is paying

[19:43:03.0000] <nickshanks>
hixie: yeah, i realise. maybe you could set up a CodeSurvey@Home project and farm it out to millions of internet zombies?

[19:43:04.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: I like free food

[19:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
nickshanks: be my guest :-)

[19:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
i really don't understand what problem is being solved by the version="" crap

[19:50:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, there isn't any problem being solved, it's just a way for people to indicate they're using the latest and greatest standard.  It's absolute nonsense

[19:51:00.0000] <webben>
or a testament to people's belief that future specs will break previous specs

[19:51:01.0000] <Lachy>
yeah, that too

[19:52:00.0000] <Lachy>
I suppose, XHTML 1 technically did that to HTML4

[19:52:01.0000] <webben>
indeed

[19:52:02.0000] <Lachy>
and XHTML2 would have done that to XHTML1

[19:52:03.0000] <othermaciej>
might be worth comparing to other document and programming languages, and whether they have a self-identification token

[19:52:04.0000] <othermaciej>
and if so whether it has been valuable or not

[19:52:05.0000] <webben>
programming languages aren't relevant i don't think

[19:52:06.0000] <webben>
document languages are

[19:52:07.0000] <Lachy>
DocBook does, but it doesn't seem valuable

[19:53:00.0000] <Hixie>
let's see...

[19:53:01.0000] <webben>
Word seems to be able to tell what version is being used.

[19:53:02.0000] <Hixie>
C++: no. Java: no. C: no. Pascal: no. Perl: no. Python: no. CSS: no.

[19:53:03.0000] <Hixie>
Word has versioning specifically to achieve something we're trying to avoid, vendor lock-in

[19:53:04.0000] <othermaciej>
C and C++ have version-based #defines, so you can check for a version from code

[19:53:05.0000] <Lachy>
JavaScript 1.2 and 1.5 are slightly incompatible

[19:54:00.0000] <othermaciej>
but there is no need or ability for code to declare its version

[19:54:01.0000] <webben>
i can see why programming langs would have no versioning and document langs would

[19:54:02.0000] <webben>
especially long-lasting, widely-distributed document langs

[19:54:03.0000] <Lachy>
FF checks for <script language=javascript1.2>

[19:54:04.0000] <Lachy>
or something like that

[19:54:05.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: really? language version, as opposed to UA version?

[19:55:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: calling a compiler a UA is kind of funny, but yes

[19:55:01.0000] <othermaciej>
you can tell if you are compiling as C89 or C99

[19:55:02.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: yeah and it's not in the script itself

[19:55:03.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: interesting. didn't know that. never seen anyone use it. (and yeah, a compiler is a user agent. :-) )

[19:55:04.0000] <Lachy>
no, but it's in the HTML that uses the script, and there are many authors that don't know the differnece

[19:56:00.0000] <webben>
ODF has versioning

[19:56:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: if you want to analogize to the web architecture, it's more like a server-size processing step

[19:56:02.0000] <webben>
2.1.2 of the ODF spec

[19:56:03.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: i guess

[19:56:04.0000] <webben>
http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=office

[19:56:05.0000] <Hixie>
webben: i wouldn't use ODF as an example of a good spec either :-)

[19:57:00.0000] <webben>
rtf has versioning

[19:58:00.0000] <nickshanks>
hixie: do you at least have time to remove 'best viewed in FireFox 1.5' from code.google.com/webstats ?

[19:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
nickshanks: again, remind me friday

[19:59:01.0000] <Hixie>
(but doing that is a pain)

[19:59:02.0000] <webben>
i wish more of these specs were provided in a decent format like HTML

[20:00:00.0000] <Lachy>
does PDF have versions?

[20:00:01.0000] <Lachy>
I think it does, but not sure

[20:00:02.0000] <nickshanks>
SVG and XML have versions

[20:00:03.0000] <nickshanks>
as does apple PropertyList format

[20:00:04.0000] <Lachy>
XML shouldn't have versioning

[20:00:05.0000] <Hixie>
again, svg, not a language i'd use as an example of great design

[20:00:06.0000] <Hixie>
xml's versioning has already causd problems

[20:01:00.0000] <webben>
Lachy, I'm just downloading the giant PDF spec of PDF to check.

[20:01:01.0000] <webben>
(talk about putting the disadvantages of your format foot-forward)

[20:01:02.0000] <Lachy>
XML 1.1 is basically unusable, and future versions of XML should drop the version declaration

[20:01:03.0000] <othermaciej>
it's best to have a model for adding features in a backwards and forwards compatible way that does not require versioning

[20:02:00.0000] <nickshanks>
webben: that just shows up the UA's "download it all before you display the first page" lame PDF handling

[20:02:01.0000] <Hixie>
ok. looping. let's see.

[20:02:02.0000] <webben>
nickshanks, wouldn't be necessary if their plugin wasn't so crash-ready

[20:02:03.0000] <webben>
but i take your point

[20:03:00.0000] <webben>
othermaciej, Doing so is not necessarily incompatible with having versioning as a safeguard

[20:03:01.0000] <webben>
e.g. has any programming language managed to evolve in a 100% backwards compatible way?

[20:03:02.0000] <nickshanks>
if(random() < 5000) longjmp(NULL, 0);

[20:04:00.0000] <webben>
(VB until .NET maybe?)

[20:04:01.0000] <Hixie>
webben: pascal, through turbo pascal and then object pascal, did a pretty good job, 16bit to 32bit pointer migration notwithstanding

[20:05:00.0000] <webben>
Hixie, Ah. Neat. :)

[20:06:00.0000] <Hixie>
if current position=10, begin=5, end=9, loopbegin=6, loopend=8, and you call play(), what should happen?

[20:06:01.0000] <Hixie>
should it continue playing from t=10?

[20:06:02.0000] <Hixie>
seems like yes

[20:06:03.0000] <Hixie>
but then how do you start over at the start of the loop sequence?

[20:07:00.0000] <Hixie>
should we have a .restart() method or something?

[20:07:01.0000] <Hixie>
(called .loop() maybe?)

[20:07:02.0000] <nickshanks>
well in order to get to 10, it would have had to have received a seek()

[20:07:03.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: your position shouldn't be able to be outside the (begin, end) range

[20:07:04.0000] <nickshanks>
so it seems only reasonable that it would need another seek() to get abck

[20:08:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: think of it like clipping

[20:08:01.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: so if you dynamically set .end, and that puts .position outside the range, the playback has to stop and seek() to .end?

[20:08:02.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: I think that's the only sensible thing

[20:09:00.0000] <Hixie>
interesting

[20:09:01.0000] <Hixie>
still leaves the question of how you restart playback

[20:09:02.0000] <Hixie>
nickshanks: so you'd have  media.seek(media.start); media.play();, with no shortcut for that?

[20:09:03.0000] <webben>
TEI has DTDs and so has versioning.

[20:10:00.0000] <webben>
Is there a document format without any versioning other than text/plain?

[20:10:01.0000] <nickshanks>
i don't think it really needs a shortcut, it's uite simple

[20:10:02.0000] <nickshanks>
*quite

[20:10:03.0000] <Hixie>
k

[20:10:04.0000] <Hixie>
webben: HTML5? :-)

[20:10:05.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: you would want to reset the current loop as well to totally restart playback

[20:10:06.0000] <Hixie>
yes

[20:11:00.0000] <Hixie>
media.currentLoop = 0; media.seek(media.start); media.play();

[20:11:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: a co-worker of mine read the #whatwg IRC logs and pointed out a use case where you would want a controller to join an existing video element in arbitrary state

[20:11:02.0000] <Hixie>
oh?

[20:11:03.0000] <othermaciej>
(wildly changing topic)

[20:12:00.0000] <webben>
yeah that download finished. PDF has versioning too.

[20:12:01.0000] <othermaciej>
consider something like Keynote, where you may have a presentation slide with possibly several video objects embedded, and a floating "video info" window

[20:12:02.0000] <Hixie>
oh and you want to attach it to see why it failed to play?

[20:12:03.0000] <othermaciej>
web presentation progragms are certainly an obvious use case to think about, even though they go beyond just simple playback

[20:12:04.0000] <Hixie>
hm

[20:12:05.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[20:12:06.0000] <Hixie>
you'd want more than just an error state then though

[20:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
you'd need error data too

[20:13:01.0000] <Hixie>
.lastError kind of thing

[20:13:02.0000] <othermaciej>
probably, yes, if the error event carries useful info

[20:13:03.0000] <Hixie>
i'll bear that in mind

[20:15:00.0000] <nickshanks>
it might be better to have a plugin that handles Content-URI: com.apple.keynote.presentation

[20:15:01.0000] <nickshanks>
rather than embedding it into HTML

[20:15:02.0000] <nickshanks>
oops, I mean UTI :-)

[20:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
he just meant if you implemented Keynote or something like that in HTML

[20:16:01.0000] <Hixie>
like s3

[20:16:02.0000] <Hixie>
or s5

[20:16:03.0000] <nickshanks>
oh right

[20:16:04.0000] <Hixie>
or whatever it's called

[20:16:05.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: so this makes updating these attributes difficult

[20:16:06.0000] <nickshanks>
 meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5/s5-intro.html

[20:17:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: you can't update all four of them at once if you're moving to a different part of the clip without checking which order to set them in

[20:17:01.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: unless we provide an interface for doing that

[20:17:02.0000] <Hixie>
like .setLoopParameters()

[20:17:03.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: ah, because end can't be before begin?

[20:17:04.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[20:17:05.0000] <othermaciej>
you could allow that but treat it as an empty range

[20:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
hm, could do

[20:19:00.0000] <nickshanks>
what if i did seek(50); setEnd(30); setStart(10);

[20:19:01.0000] <Hixie>
you'd end up at position=30

[20:19:02.0000] <Hixie>
assuming they were unset before

[20:20:00.0000] <othermaciej>
why is there even a seek method instead of position being read/write?

[20:20:01.0000] <nickshanks>
and play() would not do anything ?

[20:20:02.0000] <othermaciej>
hmm, seek appears to be relative if I am intepreting "offset" right

[20:20:03.0000] <Hixie>
seek isn't relaive

[20:21:00.0000] <Hixie>
it exists because originally i was going to have position only update once the seek had completed

[20:21:01.0000] <Hixie>
but since i changed that i guess now we can just remove seek()

[20:21:02.0000] <Hixie>
still, that doesn't affect this discussion

[20:21:03.0000] <othermaciej>
yeah, was just an aside

[20:21:04.0000] <nickshanks>
om has a point, you could use setPosition(int) for absolute, and advance(±int) for relative

[20:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
let's concentrate on these loop variables first

[20:22:01.0000] <Hixie>
so if currentLoop = 0,  start <= position < loopEnd

[20:22:02.0000] <Hixie>
   if 0 < currentLoop < loopCount,  loopStart <= position < loopEnd

[20:23:00.0000] <Hixie>
   if currentLoop == loopCount,  loopStart <= position <= end

[20:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
right?

[20:23:02.0000] <othermaciej>
sounds about right

[20:23:03.0000] <Hixie>
and this needs to apply when seeking and when playback is occuring

[20:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
do we clamp on seek, or raise an exception?

[20:25:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh that was the other reason i had a method instead of a setter

[20:25:01.0000] <Hixie>
i didn't like the idea of invoking an event handler while in a setter

[20:25:02.0000] <Hixie>
i don't like heavy duty setters generally

[20:38:00.0000] <othermaciej>
DOM is full of them though

[20:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[20:40:01.0000] <Hixie>
i try to learn from past mistakes :-P

[20:41:00.0000] <othermaciej>
well, getter / setter vs function is just a matter of syntax

[20:42:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I tend to find 0-arg getter functions and 1-arg setter functions to be unidiomatic in JS

[20:42:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[20:44:00.0000] <othermaciej>
nearly the same to implement though, at least in our engine

[20:48:00.0000] <ericcarlson>
rewinding back to the discussion about what to do with play() when currentTime == duration:

[20:48:01.0000] <ericcarlson>
one option is to seek(startTime), emitting a timechanged event, before setting the rate

[20:50:00.0000] <ericcarlson>
FWIW this is what QuickTime has done since the dark ages (1991)

[20:51:00.0000] <nickshanks>
i would concur

[20:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
could you elaborate?

[20:51:02.0000] <Hixie>
i don't understand the proposal as described

[20:52:00.0000] <nickshanks>
when you're at the ned and you click play, it should go to the start and begin playing again

[20:52:01.0000] <nickshanks>
*ned -> end

[20:52:02.0000] <Hixie>
should it reset the loop count?

[20:53:00.0000] <ericcarlson>
good question

[20:53:01.0000] <Lachy>
yes, that's the behaviour a user would expect.

[20:53:02.0000] <nickshanks>
yeah, because in all likelyhood the loop count is at loopMax by this point anyway

[20:53:03.0000] <othermaciej>
if it's hit the max loop count, that would probably make sense

[20:54:00.0000] <Hixie>
i guess we could have 'play' act differently when ended==true than when ended==false, which is basically what you propose, right?

[20:54:01.0000] <Hixie>
that would work

[20:54:02.0000] <ericcarlson>
Yes

[20:54:03.0000] <Hixie>
ok

[20:54:04.0000] <othermaciej>
there's another relevant question here, which is whether position (or currentTime, which I personally like better) goes from startTime to endTime, or from 0 to (endTime - startTime)

[20:54:05.0000] <nickshanks>
play shouldn't act differently, no

[20:55:00.0000] <nickshanks>
oh, i see what you mean. i wa=s thinking you meant "lets play the movie differently the second time around" :-)

[20:55:01.0000] <ericcarlson>
startTime -> endTime because setting startTime doesn't change the media time line, 

[20:56:00.0000] <ericcarlson>
only the point at which playback starts.

[20:56:01.0000] <nickshanks>
anyway, 4am here, going to sleep

[20:56:02.0000] <nickshanks>
night all

[20:57:00.0000] <othermaciej>
g'night nickshanks 

[20:57:01.0000] <Hixie>
do end and loopend default to +INF or .duration?

[20:58:00.0000] <ericcarlson>
+INF so it is possible to detect that it has never been set.

[20:58:01.0000] <Hixie>
k

[06:07:00.0000] <hendry>
Lachy: i mentioned the two irc channels knowing of course we have two mailing lists. :) i wonder if we'll all settle on one.

[06:11:00.0000] <Lachy>
I'm sure there are some on the list who don't realise we have 2 lists, we seem to have a lot of newbies

[08:38:00.0000] <nickshanks>
hendry, Lachy: what is the other list and other channel?

[08:42:00.0000] <Lachy>
nickshanks, public-html and #html-wg on the W3C IRC server

[08:45:00.0000] <nickshanks>
there's more than one IRC server? nooooo freenode rules all!

[08:45:01.0000] <Lachy>
nickshanks, haven't you joined the HTMLWG?

[08:46:00.0000] <nickshanks>
irc://irc.w3.org/#html-wg

[08:46:01.0000] <Lachy>
that's the one

[08:46:02.0000] <nickshanks>
yes,m i did

[08:46:03.0000] <nickshanks>
(and i was just typing the link so i could click it

[08:46:04.0000] <nickshanks>
hmm, doesn't want to connect

[08:47:00.0000] <nickshanks>
is the port different?

[08:47:01.0000] <annevk>
yes

[08:47:02.0000] <annevk>
6665

[08:47:03.0000] <annevk>
iirc

[08:47:04.0000] <Lachy>
that's right

[08:47:05.0000] <annevk>
or just use 80

[08:47:06.0000] <annevk>
that works as well

[08:48:00.0000] <Lachy>
is 6667 for W3C members only?

[08:48:01.0000] <annevk>
for the Team

[08:55:00.0000] <met_>
http://dbaron.org/log/2007-03#e20070325a

[08:55:01.0000] <annevk>
heh, <acronym> bugs are marked as spam already

[08:55:02.0000] <annevk>
s/bugs/mails/

[08:56:00.0000] <annevk>
nickshanks, why bother implementing longdesc?

[08:56:01.0000] <annevk>
nickshanks, it's dropped from HTML5...

[08:57:00.0000] <webben>
what's the barrier to implementing longdesc?

[08:57:01.0000] <nickshanks>
well, first i wanted to add img[longdesc]:after { content: "Description: " attr(longdesc); } to my default CSS

[08:57:02.0000] <nickshanks>
then i discovered that :before and :aftrer don't work for replaced elements

[08:57:03.0000] <nickshanks>
so i went to look why

[08:58:00.0000] <webben>
or is the idea that <a> is a better solution?

[08:58:01.0000] <annevk>
attr(longdesc) seems pretty wrong

[08:58:02.0000] <webben>
and if so, how is <a> linked to the image as a longdesc?

[08:58:03.0000] <nickshanks>
and spotted a bug that safari wasn't treating longdesc as a url (i.e. it ignored <base href> and other things)

[08:58:04.0000] <annevk>
(longdesc is a URI iirc)

[08:59:00.0000] <nickshanks>
so i fixed that, and went on to see if i could add a contextual menu item to open the description in a new tab

[08:59:01.0000] <nickshanks>
anne: yes it's not a good solution at all, but I use it for blockquote[cite] too

[09:00:00.0000] <webben>
nickshanks: while you're at it, maybe you could do the same for cite?

[09:00:01.0000] <webben>
(ins, del, q, blockquote)

[09:00:02.0000] <nickshanks>
webben: you mean contextual menus?

[09:00:03.0000] <annevk>
/me thinks every browser should just drop support for longdesc

[09:00:04.0000] <nickshanks>
well i could, yes

[09:00:05.0000] <webben>
yeah, it works well as a context menu item

[09:00:06.0000] <annevk>
including the attribute etc.

[09:00:07.0000] <nickshanks>
anne: wikipedia uses it on every image

[09:00:08.0000] <annevk>
DOM attribute*

[09:01:00.0000] <annevk>
nickshanks, they also provide a link, no?

[09:01:01.0000] <nickshanks>
yep

[09:01:02.0000] <annevk>
which people actually use

[09:01:03.0000] <annevk>
as opposed to the longdesc thingie...

[09:01:04.0000] <nickshanks>
because longdesc is broken in 99% of UAs

[09:01:05.0000] <webben>
i wonder if Google indexes the longdesc links from Wikipedia for its image search

[09:01:06.0000] <annevk>
I don't think adding a contextmenu entry fixes it...

[09:02:00.0000] <webben>
annevk: Why?

[09:02:01.0000] <webben>
(well actually more important is exposing the longdesc to accessibility frameworks)

[09:02:02.0000] <nickshanks>
anne: the entry would only show up for images that had a description, it wouldn't be intrusive, and it would both improve accessibility and not harm backwards compatibility

[09:03:00.0000] <nickshanks>
webben: anything in the DOM is accessible to UI frameworks, is it not?

[09:04:00.0000] <annevk>
I don't think having hidden metadata improves the situation much.

[09:04:01.0000] <nickshanks>
my point is if it's there we might as well make use of it

[09:04:02.0000] <webben>
nickshanks: not really, no. A lot of the problems with screen readers relate to browsers exposing DOMs very partially to the accessibility frameworks.

[09:04:03.0000] <annevk>
we could add lots of attributes to elements that trigger contextmenu thingies, but I don't see that necessarily improving accessibility or something

[09:04:04.0000] <nickshanks>
whether it *ought* to be there or avaialble via another mechanism is a different discussian

[09:04:05.0000] <nickshanks>
on

[09:04:06.0000] <webben>
Mozilla is working on better exposure, which should translate into more advancing screen reading.

[09:05:00.0000] <webben>
(but even that is problematic; e.g. Mozilla dropping speech CSS so that Fire Vox has to reparse the CSS file to extract the relevant properties)

[09:07:00.0000] <nickshanks>
IIRC WebKit has to re-parse CSS for print and lay the page out again

[09:07:01.0000] <nickshanks>
even though it supports that nativly :(

[09:07:02.0000] <webben>
well that at least makes more sense

[09:08:00.0000] <annevk>
it doesn't

[09:08:01.0000] <annevk>
/me wonders why Hixie introduced content attributes with uppercase letters

[09:08:02.0000] <webben>
window-eyes supports longdesc: http://www.gwmicro.com/window-eyes/manual/html/index.html?19_10longdesc.htm

[09:08:03.0000] <annevk>
/me assumes it's an oversight

[09:09:00.0000] <webben>
JAWS supports longdesc: http://www.wats.ca/show.php?contentid=48

[09:09:01.0000] <nickshanks>
JAWS is horrible :)

[09:10:00.0000] <webben>
nickshanks: Well sure. But IE is horrible and we run circles round that.

[09:10:01.0000] <annevk>
IE is actually used

[09:10:02.0000] <webben>
JAWS is (probably) the most popular screen reader

[09:10:03.0000] <nickshanks>
Actually I think VoiceOver is shitty too, but then it's only a 1.0 product

[09:11:00.0000] <nickshanks>
s/popular/common/

[09:11:01.0000] <webben>
replacement accepted :)

[09:12:00.0000] <webben>
but i think we probably shouldn't ditch accessibility features supported by the most popular screen readers

[09:12:01.0000] <annevk>
/me isn't sure DOM2HTML is internally consistent

[09:12:02.0000] <webben>
or the most common ones either

[09:12:03.0000] <annevk>
.hreflang for instance

[09:13:00.0000] <annevk>
or .className versus .htmlFor

[09:17:00.0000] <nickshanks>
anne: btw I apologise if my recent emails to you have seemed a bit strong or disrespectful, that was not intentional

[09:19:00.0000] <annevk>
/me didn't really notice it...

[09:19:01.0000] <nickshanks>
cool :-)

[09:23:00.0000] <webben>
FS provide documentation in *.exe format. How very helpful.

[09:24:00.0000] <nickshanks>
heh: from the window-eyes web page on <abbr> and <acronym>:

[09:24:01.0000] <nickshanks>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Arial';">The Acronym and Abbreviation elements allow web page authors to indicate occurrences of abbreviations and acronyms. Acronyms are words formed from the first letters of each of the parts of the term (i.e. NATO, radar). Abbreviations are shortened forms of words (i.e. amt, lb).</span></p>

[09:25:00.0000] <nickshanks>
they don't even use the elements in the exact places they are supposed to be used :/

[09:26:00.0000] <webben>
heh

[09:27:00.0000] <webben>
have you seen FS's markup?

[09:27:01.0000] <webben>
it's something else...

[09:27:02.0000] <nickshanks>
fs?

[09:27:03.0000] <webben>
sorry Freedom Scientific

[09:27:04.0000] <webben>
(they make JAWS)

[09:28:00.0000] <nickshanks>
i won't comment on their use of span and font-family…

[09:36:00.0000] <annevk>
/me wonders what the usecase is for loopStart

[09:36:01.0000] <annevk>
and if something like that is really needed, should it accept an array instead?

[09:38:00.0000] <nickshanks>
perhaps an int or array of length ≤ loopCount

[09:39:00.0000] <annevk>
if overloading works i suppose the feature isn't needed right away

[09:39:01.0000] <annevk>
also, I think it would be nice (as suggested in the minutes here) to replace .seek() with .position = x

[09:40:00.0000] <annevk>
that also allows you to skip with 20s using .position += 20

[11:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
can XSLT really not output arbitrary text?

[11:22:01.0000] <Hixie>
i thought it could

[11:40:00.0000] <zcorpan>
<!doctype html public "html"> triggers quirks mode in at least gecko

[11:41:00.0000] <hasather>
Hixie: yes

[11:43:00.0000] <zcorpan>
<xsl:text disable-output-escaping="yes">&lt;doctype html></xsl:text> i think

[11:43:01.0000] <hasather>
yea, that should do it

[11:44:00.0000] <zcorpan>
/me replies

[11:54:00.0000] <Hixie>
that's what i thought

[11:54:01.0000] <Hixie>
ok

[11:54:02.0000] <Hixie>
good

[11:54:03.0000] <Hixie>
glad we sorted that out

[11:54:04.0000] <Hixie>
http://www.w3.org/mid/A9925841-9449-4E5C-B149-EF07E1598735⊙if is the best anti-versioning e-mail i've seen this week

[11:55:00.0000] <zcorpan>
indeed

[11:55:01.0000] <hasather>
yep :)

[11:55:02.0000] <zcorpan>
i've del.icio.used it

[11:56:00.0000] <hasather>
BTW, I think Jirka meant that you can't output <!doctype html> with xsl:ouput, but that was not what he wrote

[11:56:01.0000] <hasather>
*xsl:output

[11:58:00.0000] <zcorpan>
then xslt should be updated so that it is possible to emit <!doctype html> with xsl:output. meanwhile there

[11:58:01.0000] <zcorpan>
's a simple workaround

[11:58:02.0000] <hasather>
agreed

[11:58:03.0000] <zcorpan>
enter and ' are too close to eachother :(

[11:59:00.0000] <hasather>
agreed too

[12:09:00.0000] <met_>
tested <xsl:text disable-output-escaping="yes">&lt;doctype html></xsl:text> in Saxon it works, but is nasty in XSLT world

[12:11:00.0000] <zcorpan>
allowing a public identifier in html5 because of *some* xslt processors not being able to emit <!doctype html> is nasty in html world

[12:11:01.0000] <met_>
some or better say all?

[12:12:00.0000] <zcorpan>
you said it worked in Saxon. julian said it didn't work in all xslt processors (being an optional feature, apparently)

[12:12:01.0000] <met_>
/me oks

[12:14:00.0000] <zcorpan>
if you want to use xsl:output you can just emit the html4 strict doctype and be done with it

[12:19:00.0000] <met_>
but it's invalid HTML5, isn't? Although I suppose it will work in browsers.

[12:19:01.0000] <zcorpan>
yes and yes


2007-03-26
[17:08:00.0000] <Lachy_>
good morning everyone :-)

[17:09:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Lachy_: morning

[17:15:00.0000] <Lachy_>
does anyone have a clue what David Daley's latest post on public-html is going on about?  He seems to go from word art to physics to markup in one sentence :-/

[17:17:00.0000] <zcorpan>
/me isn't reading dd's mails

[19:41:00.0000] <Dashiva>
So speaking of canvas, it has width and height attributes of type long. The content attributes are defined as non-negative integers. Shouldn't the DOM attributes be unsigned long then?

[19:42:00.0000] <Lachy_>
Dashiva: you should raise that on the mailing list

[19:44:00.0000] <Philip`>
I've just raised that already

[19:44:01.0000] <Philip`>
(Well, I didn't explicitly say they should be unsigned long, but I assume that's the logical conclusion)

[19:45:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Lachy: It was a real question. Canvas is never going to use the upper half of an unsigned long, either type will have a huge unused number space, so the end result wouldn't really change

[19:46:00.0000] <Lachy_>
so then what's the problem?

[19:47:00.0000] <Dashiva>
"Should attributes defined to be non-negative always use unsigned long?"

[19:48:00.0000] <Lachy_>
I don't know.  Could it break anything if it were changed?

[19:49:00.0000] <Philip`>
<img> uses signed long DOM attributes and non-negative [or non-negative percentage] content attributes, but they're not reflecting so it's not a problem

[19:49:01.0000] <othermaciej>
in ECMAScript they are all IEEE doubles anyway

[19:49:02.0000] <othermaciej>
so at most this would matter for behavior when you assign an invalid value

[19:50:00.0000] <othermaciej>
note that unsigned long a 64-bit integer, and an IEEE double can't even address all its values

[19:53:00.0000] <Philip`>
If you set canvas.width to 4294967296+200, then it gets converted to 200 in every browser, so they seem to be using 32-bit integers

[19:56:00.0000] <othermaciej>
oh, I guess long is 32-bit in IDL

[19:56:01.0000] <othermaciej>
my mistake

[20:34:00.0000] <zcorpan>
http://www.oreillynet.com/xml/blog/2007/03/restarting_the_html_engine.html?CMP=OTC-TY3388567169&ATT=Re-starting+the+HTML+Engine

[20:35:00.0000] <othermaciej>
what's HTML 4.3?

[20:36:00.0000] <zcorpan>
there's so much wrong in that article

[20:37:00.0000] <zcorpan>
in the second comment: "Actually most browsers do have the ability to determine whether an HTML document is valid or not"

[20:38:00.0000] <othermaciej>
wow, that guy has no idea

[20:38:01.0000] <othermaciej>
about... anything

[20:38:02.0000] <othermaciej>
candidate for most clueless sentence: "It is likely that an HTML 5.0 DTD would in fact allow for a valid XHTML1 or XHTML2 schema as one potential use case."

[20:38:03.0000] <zcorpan>
yeah that one amused me too

[20:39:00.0000] <Lachy_>
I'm only up to the 3rd paragraph, and already come across countless mistakes.  Please tell me it gets better?

[20:39:01.0000] <zcorpan>
sorry dude

[20:40:00.0000] <othermaciej>
reading this hurts my eyes and brain

[20:40:01.0000] <Lachy_>
ok, I'll read it after lunch then

[20:40:02.0000] <zcorpan>
wonder if it's worth commenting

[20:47:00.0000] <zcorpan>
added to http://del.icio.us/zcorpan anyway

[20:49:00.0000] <zcorpan>
(my "whatwg" tags are feedback, the rest are just bookmarks)

[20:55:00.0000] <zcorpan>
"Probably ought to join at least the whatwg lists; W3C could get scary after a tmie..." -- http://del.icio.us/url/7186620143093f814e8a0652b169d7d3

[22:32:00.0000] <marcosc>
is anyone else having problems loading http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ in firefox? 

[22:32:01.0000] <marcosc>
I've tried on two different machines. It seems fine in IE?

[22:45:00.0000] <marcosc>
Hixie, can you please fix (or remove) the print style from http://www.whatwg.org/style/specification

[22:45:01.0000] <marcosc>
Currently it's set to: 

[22:45:02.0000] <marcosc>
@media print {

[22:45:03.0000] <marcosc>
  html { font-size: 10pt; }

[22:45:04.0000] <marcosc>
}

[22:45:05.0000] <marcosc>
please either leave the spec to use browser defaults or set font-size to something (much) larger. I just tried to print the latest draft of the spec on using 2 pages per sheet and the spec is unreadable. Lets not make people waste paper  unessasarily, I personally feel bad enough about my environmental track record  :(

[22:47:00.0000] <zcorpan>
marcosc: i think hsivonen has a better print style sheet

[22:48:00.0000] <marcosc>
zcorpan, hopefully the spec can point to that instead :) 

[22:50:00.0000] <marcosc>
On my machine, IE7 also really struggles with rendering the spec. It think it might be getting too big. 

[02:06:00.0000] <hsivonen>
what happened to the old whatbot logs?

[03:25:00.0000] <Lachy>
hsivonen, I think Charl and krijnh are going to recover the old logs

[03:31:00.0000] <krijnh>
Yeah

[03:32:00.0000] <krijnh>
Sorry for not having already

[03:32:01.0000] <krijnh>
I have to copy every file by hand :)

[03:32:02.0000] <krijnh>
Ow, and I have to work

[03:34:00.0000] <krijnh>
Regarding that, it's hard selling a CMS without a WYSIWYG editor :]

[04:20:00.0000] <hendry>
omg, re "HTML should be replaced by Flash" msg

[04:20:01.0000] <Lachy>
oh gosh, I wonder why he posted that to the list :-/

[04:21:00.0000] <hendry>
He must be troll.

[04:21:01.0000] <krijnh>
Or just a joke

[04:21:02.0000] <krijnh>
To show how his colleague thinks about the web

[04:21:03.0000] <krijnh>
Let's ignore :)

[04:21:04.0000] <hendry>
joke/trolling is the same in my book

[04:21:05.0000] <Lachy>
jokes are ok sometimes, trolling isn't

[04:22:00.0000] <hendry>
well this is a bad joke ;)

[04:22:01.0000] <Lachy>
well, I suppose I laugh at both and don't reply to either

[04:22:02.0000] <hendry>
/me sobs

[04:22:03.0000] <krijnh>
/me doesn't understand the xml input thing

[04:25:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Maybe it's art

[04:27:00.0000] <krijnh>
"Expert users could use generic XML editors while children and grandparents would probably prefer more human friendly input tools, restricted to specific schemas." - the latter should still be a generic XML editor, right?

[04:33:00.0000] <virtuelv>
hendry: url for that msg?

[04:34:00.0000] <krijnh>
virtuelv: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007JanMar/0516.html

[04:35:00.0000] <virtuelv>
heh, now -that's- a troll

[04:35:01.0000] <Dashiva>
krijnh: Well, theoretically the schema could be turned into a BBcode like editor, with buttons for various tags with prompting for attributes and whatnot

[04:36:00.0000] <Dashiva>
That would be friendly, but probably a nightmare to create

[04:37:00.0000] <krijnh>
So in stead of <foo> you'd have [foo]

[04:38:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Oh, badly worded. I meant editor like the BBcode ones used in forums and the like

[04:39:00.0000] <krijnh>
Or like WordPress

[04:40:00.0000] <krijnh>
Which knows about semantics, a bit

[04:40:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Haven't used it, but I imagine there are many similar cases

[04:40:02.0000] <Dashiva>
The problem would be turning a schema into the right buttons, I think

[04:41:00.0000] <krijnh>
And the generated foo into something on your screen, if you want wysiwyg

[04:42:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I figured the xml input thingie would only be for actual xml and no presentation?

[04:42:01.0000] <krijnh>
Then I don't get how children/grandparents could benefit

[04:44:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Well, they would press buttons and answer questions presented (about values, atts, etc), and not be writing it directly

[10:16:00.0000] <krijnh>
marcosc: If my server breaks, I hold you responsible ;)

[10:17:00.0000] <marcosc>
no probs

[10:18:00.0000] <marcosc>
Krijnh, what are we talking about? 

[10:18:01.0000] <krijnh>
marcosc: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007JanMar/0527.html

[10:19:00.0000] <marcosc>
Ah! Welcome!!! :D 

[10:22:00.0000] <tylerr>
I was a bit scared this morning when I opened my e-mail to 100+ messages. :)

[10:23:00.0000] <krijnh>
marcosc: How fast is my server anyway? Can't test it here, since it's in my LAN

[10:25:00.0000] <marcosc>
krijnh, I'm lost, sorry? 

[10:25:01.0000] <krijnh>
krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/

[10:25:02.0000] <krijnh>
How are does files served?

[10:25:03.0000] <marcosc>
oh, it's good

[10:25:04.0000] <krijnh>
Hmm, k

[10:26:00.0000] <marcosc>
sorry, It's 2:30am for me and I'm trying to have 5 conversations at the same time while debugging... :(

[10:26:01.0000] <krijnh>
Ah, hehe

[10:26:02.0000] <krijnh>
Well, 18:38 here, diner time

[10:27:00.0000] <marcosc>
enjoy! 

[10:27:01.0000] <krijnh>
Nn ;)

[10:27:02.0000] <tylerr>
Goodness I'd be happy if it were dinner time! I just got in to work 40 minutes ago. :(

[10:28:00.0000] <marcosc>
krijnh, so I guess I totally mistook your comments about IRC. I thought you were avoiding IRC and there you were actually doing the logging! 

[10:32:00.0000] <Philip`>
krijnh: I get a consistent 50KB/sec downloading the logs from that site, so it's about a second to reload a log page, which seems fast enough (though it could be nice to enable compression if that's easy)

[10:33:00.0000] <marcosc>
/me as a rule should just not make comments on public mailing lists.

[10:37:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
http://waffle.wootest.net/2007/03/24/now-in-glorious-html5/

[13:35:00.0000] <tylerr>
/me wonders how the communication flow is going to take shape for the HTMLWG.

[13:37:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I think we need an issue tracker, but people who can't follow the flow of IRC or even email are going to be less informed and less up to speed

[13:37:01.0000] <tylerr>
/me nods.

[13:37:02.0000] <othermaciej>
but we still want those people to be able to participate, and they need an issue tracker or the like

[13:38:00.0000] <tylerr>
Something akin to a bug tracker/ticket system?

[13:39:00.0000] <gsnedders>
WHATWG's is Hixie's magical memory, right?

[13:40:00.0000] <tylerr>
Magical what? :-)

[13:40:01.0000] <kingryan>
gsnedders: it's hixie's inbox

[13:41:00.0000] <gsnedders>
kingryan: I know, but that's a boring explanation :P

[13:41:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I think the "hixie's inbox" system is great for hixie but not so much for people who are not him

[13:41:02.0000] <gsnedders>
especially with the WG wanted to be more open

[13:41:03.0000] <gsnedders>
*wanting

[13:41:04.0000] <tylerr>
Well if we're looking for online solutions...

[13:41:05.0000] <tylerr>
http://www.solutionwatch.com/578/a-roundup-for-developers-developers-developers/

[13:42:00.0000] <tylerr>
There's a whole slew of tools to consider.

[13:42:01.0000] <gsnedders>
as long as we don't choose something with an unusable UI

[13:43:00.0000] <tylerr>
This is the world of "Web 2.0", everything has a pretty UI these days. ;-)

[13:46:00.0000] <othermaciej>
adding more separate places where discussion takes place probably won't help the people who feel overwhelmed

[13:46:01.0000] <gsnedders>
I want a single point of communication

[13:47:00.0000] <gsnedders>
having multiple places means you don't have a discussion with everyone invovled

[13:47:01.0000] <othermaciej>
just having IRC and mail is bad enough

[13:47:02.0000] <gsnedders>
agreed

[13:47:03.0000] <othermaciej>
but IRC is more responsive and has lower cognitive load per message

[13:47:04.0000] <gsnedders>
but is harder to catch up on

[13:47:05.0000] <othermaciej>
whereas mail is more inclusive of asynchronous participants

[13:48:00.0000] <gsnedders>
anything asynchronous is easier to catch up on, as people have to make their points in a single message

[13:48:01.0000] <tylerr>
It's going to be a persistant problem.

[13:49:00.0000] <tylerr>
People needing to catch-up and asking for explaination/follow-up, while those that were part of the original discussion will want to move forward.

[13:49:01.0000] <Dashiva>
I think making the email archive more forumy could go a long way

[13:50:00.0000] <tylerr>
So that posts to the list auto-generate replies in forum topics?

[13:52:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Well, make the archives look more like a forum with automatic thread view, all mail in one thread on the same page, stuff like that

[13:53:00.0000] <tylerr>
I'd code something up to do that but I don't have the chops. :)

[13:53:01.0000] <Dashiva>
You could make a fullfledged hybrid where a bot posts incoming mail in threads, and sends mail based on forum replies, but that is overdoing it IMO

[13:53:02.0000] <Dashiva>
Personally, I believe the thread structure of a forum is too static for this kind of work

[13:53:03.0000] <tylerr>
Haha yeah. We're here for HTML, not a new parsing/publishing tool. :)

[13:54:00.0000] <tylerr>
I agree.

[13:54:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Almost every email in the list with significant replies has branched noticably

[13:56:00.0000] <Dashiva>
On the other hand, I can fully understand that anyone stuck with a webmail client would love a forum

[13:56:01.0000] <tylerr>
Aye.

[13:57:00.0000] <tylerr>
I've mentioned Campfire a few times before, but the consensus always returns to straight IRC.

[13:58:00.0000] <othermaciej>
tylerr: better archive views (threaded spanning month blocks for instance) would help for people catching up

[13:59:00.0000] <othermaciej>
tylerr: but I don't think we can ask the group to go slower to help the people who have less time to follow

[13:59:01.0000] <tylerr>
Sure, that's just not good for the pace of the WG.

[13:59:02.0000] <Dashiva>
Yeah, thread grouping should take priority over time grouping

[14:00:00.0000] <othermaciej>
ultimately there will be a final review period

[14:00:01.0000] <othermaciej>
but I think planning a feature freeze milestone and sticking to discussion of larger features before then may actually help

[14:01:00.0000] <othermaciej>
so "should we add <video> and how should it work?" would take precedence over things like <acronym> vs <abbr>

[14:01:01.0000] <othermaciej>
but I also think establishing shared design principles up front is good

[14:01:02.0000] <tylerr>
Let me know if I'm pushing Campfire too much, but one account gives you access to create multiple "rooms", which have their own log search capabilities. Discussions can be mitigated to individual rooms where discussion can take place and will be logged by both time and "thread".

[14:02:00.0000] <tylerr>
So a <video> room could be created for all discussions related to video, and logs would be easily accessible and readible by anyone.

[14:02:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Sounds like a forum with subforums to me, tylerr

[14:02:02.0000] <tylerr>
Sure, but it has the dynamic level of chat.

[14:03:00.0000] <tylerr>
Here's a snapshot of the transcript section.

[14:03:01.0000] <tylerr>
http://campfirenow.com/images/tourshot-transcripts.png

[14:04:00.0000] <othermaciej>
tylerr: or we could make #htmlwg-video and log that

[14:04:01.0000] <tylerr>
Sure.

[14:04:02.0000] <othermaciej>
tylerr: I'm wary of claims that changing to a different chat program will somehow make things better

[14:05:00.0000] <tylerr>
I'm am as well. I'm just throwing options out there. I'm completely happy with IRC myself. :-)

[14:05:01.0000] <tylerr>
I just know some people are warry of it.

[14:06:00.0000] <Dashiva>
We could spend four years designing IRC 2.0

[14:06:01.0000] <gsnedders>
surely IRC 5.0?

[14:06:02.0000] <gsnedders>
:P

[14:06:03.0000] <gsnedders>
(can we please add a way to declare encoding!?)

[14:07:00.0000] <Dashiva>
No

[14:07:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Forced unicode!

[14:09:00.0000] <gsnedders>
well, specifying an encoding is one way of declaring an encoding :)

[14:09:01.0000] <gsnedders>
as it declares it in the spec

[14:09:02.0000] <Dashiva>
Well, IRC is specified to pass octets. The end client decides what to do with them. Isn't that good enough? :)

[14:10:00.0000] <tylerr>
Heh

[14:10:01.0000] <tylerr>
Okay, just for fun, here's a campfire room I've set up. Only four people can come in, but feel free to take a look: http://htmlwg.campfirenow.com/01ff9

[14:15:00.0000] <bewest>
isn't campfire proprietary?

[14:15:01.0000] <tylerr>
bewest: Yep, service run by 37signals.

[14:17:00.0000] <bewest>
I would suggest that might be a reason that your suggestion doesn't gain much traction

[14:18:00.0000] <tylerr>
I'd gather as much, but sometimes there just isn't an opensource solution readily available, else I'd be all over it.

[14:19:00.0000] <bewest>
maybe that's why IRC is so popular

[14:19:01.0000] <bewest>
readily available, widely deployed, well supported

[14:19:02.0000] <bewest>
it's not old, it's proven

[14:20:00.0000] <bewest>
and open

[14:20:01.0000] <bewest>
and it's extensible using bots

[14:20:02.0000] <Dashiva>
It's open in theory, but every ircd seems to do things differently. Could use a new rfc to standardize things added since 1976

[14:20:03.0000] <Dashiva>
(year made up for humorous effect)

[14:21:00.0000] <tylerr>
Sure. I agree with your points, and I'm going to keep mentioning that I openly support IRC as our communication tool. I'm just open to suggesting other means of communication to let others explore the options while we wait for an offical stance.

[14:23:00.0000] <tylerr>
I'm just along for the ride. When it comes to getting work done, any environment will suit me fine. :-)

[14:23:01.0000] <tylerr>
*comes time

[15:03:00.0000] <Hixie>
regarding the issue tracking

[15:03:01.0000] <Hixie>
the reason i don't issue track outside my inbox is that issue tracking inside my inbox takes about 500ms per e-mail

[15:03:02.0000] <Hixie>
plus whatever time it takes to reply to the e-mail

[15:03:03.0000] <Hixie>
issue tracking outside that would require much more time

[15:04:00.0000] <Hixie>
people are, however, very much encouraged to do any issue tracking they'd like, e.g. in the wiki or elsewhere

[15:05:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Issue-001: Hixie has a job, preventing him from devoting his entire day to lggwg

[15:05:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Actually, we talked yesterday about long vs unsigned long in the DOM attributes

[15:05:02.0000] <othermaciej>
I think for HTMLWG, we can probably find volunteers to handle the overhead of a more formal issue tracker on your behalf

[15:05:03.0000] <kingryan>
Hixie: ideally you wouldn't have to process every bit of feedback. that should be parallelized

[15:05:04.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: I think making you do the beurocracy would be too annoying

[15:05:05.0000] <Dashiva>
image and canvas have height/width defined to be non-negative, but the DOM values are signed. Is this an issue?

[15:06:00.0000] <othermaciej>
but we might also be able to set up a mailbot where saying magic key phrases in mail marks an issue as resolved

[15:06:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah if someone else does issue tracking that's certainly something i'd support

[15:06:02.0000] <othermaciej>
and where incoming mail can automatically create an issue

[15:06:03.0000] <kingryan>
Hixie: at the very least having people do triage (is this a preexisting issue? has it already been dealt with?) could lighten the load

[15:06:04.0000] <Hixie>
i'd still want to actually reply to every e-mail though

[15:06:05.0000] <Hixie>
because i think distilling e-mails tends to dilute issues and makes it much easier to ignore things

[15:06:06.0000] <Hixie>
especially annoying, hard things

[15:06:07.0000] <Hixie>
kingryan: yup

[15:07:00.0000] <kingryan>
/me is *not* volunteering

[15:07:01.0000] <Philip`>
(Dashiva: I believe it's mainly an issue for canvas and not for img, because only canvas says the DOM and content attributes reflect)

[15:08:00.0000] <tylerr>
Are you looking for issue tracking software or simply just someone to manage the deluge of mail?

[15:08:01.0000] <Hixie>
Dashiva: someone sent mail about that (you, maybe?) and it's in my pile of canvas feedback :-)

[15:08:02.0000] <Hixie>
tylerr: i'm not looking for anything, but i believe two things were being proposed:

[15:08:03.0000] <Dashiva>
Philip`: Even without reflection, there is the semantic issue

[15:08:04.0000] <Hixie>
1. a way to allow people to see what open issues exist

[15:09:00.0000] <Hixie>
2. a way to triage incoming feedback so that people raising old issues can have their issues closed without editorial involvement

[15:10:00.0000] <tylerr>
Hmm... so something like a social ticketing tracking system.

[15:10:01.0000] <tylerr>
Rather, "open" ticket-tracking system.

[15:10:02.0000] <tylerr>
Social is so commodified these days. ;-)

[15:11:00.0000] <othermaciej>
it would be extra nice if it was linked to email

[15:12:00.0000] <othermaciej>
trackbot already knows how to detect email follow-ups on an existing issue

[15:12:01.0000] <bewest>
tylerr: see baetle

[15:12:02.0000] <othermaciej>
just needs a way to add an issue and a way to resolve an issue by email

[15:12:03.0000] <othermaciej>
the problem is that whether a comment is accepted or rejected can be subjective

[15:13:00.0000] <tylerr>
Nice bewest.

[15:13:01.0000] <tylerr>
Thanks.

[15:13:02.0000] <othermaciej>
in w3c at least, the WG says they agree but then does something the commentor disagrees with

[15:18:00.0000] <Philip`>
Dashiva: True - I was just thinking of the logical contradiction issue with canvas, whereas img is 'only' semantically odd (and partly undefined, because I don't think it says what happens when you modify the DOM 'width')

[15:29:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: should I cross-post http://hsivonen.iki.fi/printing-wa10/ to the WHATWG blog even though it is product-specific?

[15:31:00.0000] <Hixie>
uh

[15:31:01.0000] <Hixie>
is there something i can do to just fix the spec instead? :-)

[15:31:02.0000] <Hixie>
it should not be that hard!

[15:32:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: you could start by adding a charset meta :-)

[15:32:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: then, I suppose you could take me additions to the style sheet and put them in a @print block 

[15:33:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: and having a wrapper <div> for the entity table would be nice as long as Prince does not support ::outside on it

[15:33:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: for WF 2.0, adding IDs for all tables would be great

[15:35:00.0000] <Hixie>
i use characters outside US-ASCII?

[15:35:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: lots

[15:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
really?!

[15:36:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: and weird ones too

[15:36:02.0000] <Hixie>
that's worrying

[15:36:03.0000] <Hixie>
since i'm not using an 8bit-safe editing environment

[15:36:04.0000] <hsivonen>
I had to google to find a font for WARNING SIGN

[15:36:05.0000] <Hixie>
where?

[15:36:06.0000] <Hixie>
but that's not an entity right?

[15:36:07.0000] <Hixie>
er

[15:36:08.0000] <Hixie>
is an entity

[15:36:09.0000] <hsivonen>
the first one crashed Quartz. the second one worked

[15:36:10.0000] <hsivonen>
NCRs

[15:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok. but am i using actual byte codes outside US-ASCII?

[15:37:01.0000] <Hixie>
as in, actual characters?

[15:37:02.0000] <Hixie>
as opposed to entities

[15:37:03.0000] <hsivonen>
also, the arabic percent sign is an esoteric one considering chiefly western content

[15:37:04.0000] <hsivonen>
ah. yeah, the page breaks without the charset meta

[15:37:05.0000] <Hixie>
why?

[15:37:06.0000] <Hixie>
where, rather?

[15:38:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I'll try to find the problem.

[15:38:01.0000] <hsivonen>
meanwhile:

[15:38:02.0000] <hsivonen>
prince: wa-rev691-2007-03-23.html:11486: error: ID video already defined

[15:38:03.0000] <hsivonen>
prince: wa-rev691-2007-03-23.html:11622: error: ID video already defined

[15:38:04.0000] <hsivonen>
prince: wa-rev691-2007-03-23.html:22851: error: Unexpected end tag : p

[15:38:05.0000] <hsivonen>
prince: wa-rev691-2007-03-23.html:24031: error: Unexpected end tag : p

[15:39:00.0000] <othermaciej>
does Prince give better results than printing from a browser?

[15:39:01.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: yes. in particular, page number-based crossreferences for internal links

[15:39:02.0000] <hober>
oooh, nice

[15:40:00.0000] <hsivonen>
om_coffee: though, I haven't checked what WebKit nightlies can do in the printing dept.

[15:40:01.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: i'm in the middle of editing the spec, the markup is in flux right now

[15:40:02.0000] <Hixie>
in particular, the id=video thing is fixed in the source

[15:42:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: dash under the main heading, copyright sign, etc. etc.

[15:43:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: looks like your preprocessor expands NCRs

[15:43:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: so I was wrong. no NCRs at all

[15:43:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: lots and lots of weird chars as straight UTF-8

[15:43:03.0000] <Dashiva>
NCR?

[15:43:04.0000] <hsivonen>
Dashiva: numeric character referenc

[15:43:05.0000] <hsivonen>
e

[15:43:06.0000] <Dashiva>
ah

[15:45:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: I don't see any non-ASCII characters in the current-work page - it's just &mdash; and &copy; in the places you mentioned

[15:45:01.0000] <hsivonen>
ah.

[15:45:02.0000] <hsivonen>
it is the reserializer in Firefox that produces them

[15:46:00.0000] <Hixie>
doesn't prince support just getting a URI?

[15:46:01.0000] <Hixie>
i thought it did

[15:47:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I though so, too, but couldn't figure it out

[15:47:01.0000] <Hixie>
also, wouldn't not setting the 'size' be better than having explicit size choice in the style sheet?

[15:48:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: quite possible

[15:48:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: is there something prince --help doesn't tell me?

[15:51:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: Looks like https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=331991

[15:54:00.0000] <othermaciej>
hsivonen: we don't do page-number-based crossreferences

[15:58:00.0000] <Hixie>
apologies, i just lost connection here.

[15:58:01.0000] <Hixie>
and i'm now in a conversation in the csswg

[16:02:00.0000] <Dashiva>
What about allowing innerHTML on DocumentFragment?

[16:03:00.0000] <othermaciej>
DocumentFragment is a core DOM interface

[16:05:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Suppose I could set/get around it using a placeholder div 

[16:27:00.0000] <tylerr>
/me needs to memorize the WHATWG spec.

[16:27:01.0000] <Hixie>
good luck with that

[16:28:00.0000] <tylerr>
:-)

[16:31:00.0000] <tylerr>
Hixie: What accessibility work has been done so far on the spec?

[16:32:00.0000] <Hixie>
the spec. :-)

[16:32:01.0000] <Hixie>
the entire spec was designed with accessibility in mind.

[16:32:02.0000] <tylerr>
Ah lovely.

[16:33:00.0000] <tylerr>
I haven't had enough time to sit down and really study it.

[16:33:01.0000] <othermaciej>
tylerr: the contents of the spec, or the spec document?

[16:33:02.0000] <tylerr>
Ah sorry, I believe I meant the contents of the spec.

[16:35:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
hsivonen: a reason why prince complains about unmatched </p> end tags may be because the status script inserts <div> inside paragraphs in some places (because the annotaions.xml file isn't up to date)

[16:38:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan_: ok

[16:38:01.0000] <webben>
tylerr: what's lacking AFAIK is much in the way of accessibility testing of the spec

[16:41:00.0000] <webben>
we also seem to lack any discernable involvement from AT developers/manufacturers (who tend not to be very interested in the web for some reason)

[16:42:00.0000] <webben>
there are also issues inherited from html4 which the spec doesn't yet faciliate resolution of e.g. use of attributes for text that might change language.

[16:43:00.0000] <tylerr>
/me nods.

[16:44:00.0000] <tylerr>
I'd like to work on some of those issues, as accessibility is an interest of mine.

[16:44:01.0000] <webben>
cool :)

[16:44:02.0000] <tylerr>
I was rather taken aback to learn that JAWS doesn't even consider CSS Aural.

[16:45:00.0000] <webben>
tylerr: Well. A lot of issues are UI issues, and HTML5 is generally wary of specifying UI issues.

[16:45:01.0000] <webben>
(that's what UAAG is for)

[16:46:00.0000] <tylerr>
Ah nice. I need to spend a weekend diving into the inner workings and specifications of the W3.

[16:46:01.0000] <webben>
heh ... i'd allot more than a weekend ;)

[16:47:00.0000] <tylerr>
Are you a part of the HTMLWG currently webben?

[16:47:01.0000] <webben>
no no ... i just lurk around here and on the main development mailing list

[16:47:02.0000] <tylerr>
Oh definitely. I have years till I would consider myself a guru.

[16:48:00.0000] <tylerr>
Ah nice.

[16:49:00.0000] <tylerr>
I'm getting involved in the WG as a solid learning experience, and to help shape the web, naturally. :-)

[16:50:00.0000] <webben>
tylerr: with regards to speech CSS, what we need (IHMO) is less specs and more developers on open source projects like Fire Vox, Orca, LSR, NVDA, and Emacspeak.

[16:51:00.0000] <webben>
oh and mozilla: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=47159

[16:51:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
someone here should work with QA for various AT vendors

[16:52:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
so they implement html5 and css speech

[16:53:00.0000] <webben>
I think CSS speech is actually a pretty marginal issue in terms of increasing web content accessibility.

[16:53:01.0000] <tylerr>
webben: I agree that more work needs to be focused on the developers. Getting them to accept the current specs is a must.

[16:53:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
ok, so they implement html5

[16:53:03.0000] <tylerr>
Sure webben. I think once the web becomes more semantic, then we can start looking at things like aural style sheets with more attention and priority.

[16:54:00.0000] <webben>
(being able to define how your reader reads html is important ... CSS may be a good tool for doing so)

[16:54:01.0000] <webben>
but then Orca and Fire Vox and Emacspeak already have crude support for that

[16:56:00.0000] <tylerr>
/me nods.

[16:56:01.0000] <webben>
bigger issues are 1) helping authors to create accessible content in the first place (hence the stress i put on easy captioning, bookmarking, audio description with <video> 2) ensuring content is easily navigable (stuff like standardized document sectioning, navbars etc, is important there)

[16:57:00.0000] <tylerr>
Definitely.

[16:57:01.0000] <tylerr>
See, what I need to do is go through each element "section" of HTML5 and determine what accessibility needs there need to be.

[16:58:00.0000] <webben>
tylerr: that would be good.

[16:58:01.0000] <tylerr>
Like how can we make embedded content more accessible, how about phrase elements and prose?

[16:58:02.0000] <tylerr>
And does tabular data need an accessibility audit?

[16:59:00.0000] <webben>
dunno ... i haven't looked at what HTML5 has done with tables at all actually

[16:59:01.0000] <tylerr>
I think I've just found my pet project for the next half a year. ;)


2007-03-27
[17:00:00.0000] <tylerr>
Here's the section on it. Doesn't seem much has changed: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-table

[17:01:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
changed since when?

[17:01:01.0000] <webben>
html4

[17:01:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
except that in html4 much was undefined?

[17:02:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
e.g., how to associate header cells with data cells

[17:02:01.0000] <webben>
how was that undefined?

[17:02:02.0000] <webben>
oh you mean without using headers and scope?

[17:03:00.0000] <Hixie>
how was it defined? :-)

[17:03:01.0000] <Hixie>
even with scope= and headers= it's somewhat vague

[17:03:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
and then there's axis="" that no-one understands

[17:03:03.0000] <zcorpan_>
or uses

[17:03:04.0000] <markp>
joe clark probably understands it

[17:03:05.0000] <tylerr>
I read about axis once and forgot what it did about 4 minutes later. ;-)

[17:04:00.0000] <webben>
does anything support it i wonder

[17:04:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
don't think so

[17:04:02.0000] <tylerr>
Time to axe it. ;-)

[17:04:03.0000] <markp>
Hixie: i was looking for you earlier

[17:04:04.0000] <webben>
well, not necessarily

[17:04:05.0000] <webben>
g

[17:04:06.0000] <markp>
is there any effort afoot to spec out window.navigator?

[17:04:07.0000] <webben>
could be time to support it with a decent screen reader

[17:04:08.0000] <markp>
aka window.clientInformation

[17:05:00.0000] <tylerr>
Oh now you're talking webben.

[17:05:01.0000] <othermaciej>
markp: if it hasn't been done, I'd assume it will be

[17:06:00.0000] <webben>
how can you not love an attribute defined like: "This attribute may be used to place a cell into conceptual categories that can be considered to form axes in an n-dimensional space."

[17:06:01.0000] <markp>
there seem to be recent developments

[17:06:02.0000] <markp>
in window.navigator

[17:06:03.0000] <markp>
that i was previously unaware of

[17:06:04.0000] <markp>
navigator.buildID in firefox 2

[17:06:05.0000] <webben>
/me tries to think of a useful way to use axis

[17:06:06.0000] <markp>
navigator.onLine

[17:07:00.0000] <markp>
and navigator.registerContentHandler / navigator.registerProtocolHandler for feed stuff

[17:07:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
webben: don't think too hard, you may end up seeing the world as an n-dimensional space

[17:07:02.0000] <tylerr>
webben: That attribute description is beautiful.

[17:08:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I can see forever

[17:09:00.0000] <webben>
hmm looks like JAWS supports axis: http://lau.csi.it/testare/accessibilita/test_user-agent/tabelle_accessibili/screen_reader.shtml

[17:09:01.0000] <webben>
if i'm understanding the italian right

[17:09:02.0000] <markp>
awesome

[17:10:00.0000] <tylerr>
I'd love to hear my web sites being read back to me in an n-dimensional space.

[17:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
markp: navigator.onLine and navigator.register* are in HTML5

[17:18:01.0000] <Hixie>
markp: (sorry, in csswg meeting mon/tue/wed this week)

[17:18:02.0000] <markp>
ah

[17:18:03.0000] <markp>
ok

[17:18:04.0000] <markp>
what about the rest of window.navigator?

[17:20:00.0000] <othermaciej>
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#navigator

[17:20:01.0000] <othermaciej>
markp: looks like not yet

[17:21:00.0000] <markp>
thanks

[17:21:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I'm not sure registerProtocolHandler / registerContentHandler is so great; the proposed solution to security issues is confirmation dialogs

[17:22:00.0000] <markp>
is there interest in filling out that section, and/or making a separate spec like Window has?

[17:22:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I think it is a matter of priorities

[17:22:02.0000] <othermaciej>
it would be good to raise the issue that it is missing the traditional navigator stuff

[17:23:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I think it would be good for it to be a separate spec, to be fair, Windows has kind of stalled in its separate-spec form

[17:35:00.0000] <Lachy_>
markp: the navigator could probably be moved to a separate spec if someone in the Web API WG was willing to work on it

[17:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
although it affects 'window'

[17:37:01.0000] <Hixie>
and 'window' affects things that affect HTML5

[17:38:00.0000] <Lachy_>
yeah, that's true

[17:38:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I think language-neutral bits of API should go in separate specs that are done by Web API, although it may be hard to do the right factoring

[00:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
hm

[00:29:01.0000] <Hixie>
so

[00:29:02.0000] <Hixie>
if currentLoop = 3

[00:29:03.0000] <Hixie>
and loopCount = 5

[00:29:04.0000] <Hixie>
and position is between loopStart and loopEnd

[00:29:05.0000] <Hixie>
and you set loopCount to 2

[00:29:06.0000] <Hixie>
what should happen?

[00:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
should it just set currnetLoop to 2 and let it finish on to end?

[00:31:00.0000] <aroben>
Hixie: I think that makes sense

[00:31:01.0000] <aroben>
Hixie: loopCount seems like the kind of thing that would only come into play when deciding whether to start a new loop

[00:32:00.0000] <othermaciej>
another possibility would be to stop immediatly

[00:32:01.0000] <othermaciej>
but what you suggested is probably better

[00:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
k

[01:01:00.0000] <krijnh>
http://gettingreal.37signals.com/ch07_Meetings_Are_Toxic.php

[01:01:01.0000] <krijnh>
\o/

[01:02:00.0000] <Hixie>
if you agree with me and maciej about meetings being a bad idea, feel free to actually say so on the survey page

[01:02:01.0000] <krijnh>
Yeah, sorry

[01:03:00.0000] <Hixie>
it seems that despite many people telling me they agree, nobody actually said anything except maciej :-)

[01:03:01.0000] <krijnh>
Well, there are issues; http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16

[01:03:02.0000] <krijnh>
But I don't know how telcons work ;)

[01:03:03.0000] <krijnh>
I know the concept

[01:03:04.0000] <krijnh>
But I don't know how/if it would help

[01:04:00.0000] <Hixie>
i guess we'll find out thursday

[01:04:01.0000] <Hixie>
anyway, sleep time

[01:04:02.0000] <Hixie>
nn

[01:04:03.0000] <krijnh>
Exactly

[01:04:04.0000] <krijnh>
Good night :)

[01:04:05.0000] <othermaciej>
krijnh: I think the odds are very slim of a telecon leading to useful progress on those issues

[01:04:06.0000] <krijnh>
I think so too

[01:04:07.0000] <othermaciej>
I wonder if I should reply at all to the complaints about too much mail

[01:04:08.0000] <krijnh>
But it's not based on experience, just a feeling

[01:05:00.0000] <othermaciej>
at some point someone has to say, "this is what it will be like, suck it up, learn what threads to follow and whom to pay attention to"

[01:05:01.0000] <othermaciej>
but better tools for some things may also help

[01:05:02.0000] <othermaciej>
I think right now the conversation wanders due to lack of clarity on how to start

[01:05:03.0000] <othermaciej>
whatwg list actually seems more focused currently

[07:43:00.0000] <maikmerten>
hmm... I guess I'm the only one with a Firefox that directly jumps to <audio> on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#video (hmmm... konqueror does it right)

[07:45:00.0000] <Philip`>
maikmerten: That's because there are three elements with id="video" - I believe Hixie said he's fixed it in his working copy

[07:45:01.0000] <maikmerten>
ah, okay, sorry for the noise then

[07:49:00.0000] <maikmerten>
as for the audio codecs: It definately makes sense to require PCM in .wav... that should be playable on basically every platform out there that somehow can turn bits into audible noise

[07:51:00.0000] <maikmerten>
however, if you want to go over board with specifying there may be room to e.g. require integer based PCM (8 and 16 bit... not float based PCM) and if someone feels like being uber-specifc there's always the question of µ-law vs. a-law ;)

[07:51:01.0000] <maikmerten>
just in case the final spec turns out to be not long enough ;)

[07:52:00.0000] <krijnh>
Philip`: I've turned compression on for the irc logs

[07:52:01.0000] <krijnh>
Hope it speeds up a bit

[07:55:00.0000] <Philip`>
krijnh: Looks good - thanks!

[07:56:00.0000] <Philip`>
With a 95KB (uncompressed) log from yesterday, it takes 2.5 seconds to download without compression and 1.2 seconds with compression

[07:56:01.0000] <krijnh>
Wow, from 64493 bytes to 17009 :|

[07:56:02.0000] <krijnh>
Sweet

[07:57:00.0000] <krijnh>
Thanks for the tip Philip` :)

[08:11:00.0000] <krijnh>
Hey Charl

[08:34:00.0000] <Charl>
krijnh: hi there

[08:35:00.0000] <krijnh>
Charl: also enabled zlib.output_compression on Miranda, let me know if WP for standards.za.net has trouble with that

[08:38:00.0000] <Charl>
krijnh: thanks will do

[10:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[10:20:01.0000] <Hixie>
we need a way of updating the labels

[10:21:00.0000] <Hixie>
charl and zcorpan are working on that i think

[10:21:01.0000] <Hixie>
the script has been getting progressively cooler :-)

[10:22:00.0000] <Lachy>
ok, moving from #html-wg.  I've thought about it a bit more, and the major problem with image maps is the lack of ability to style <area> elements in browsers, whcih is really a CSS issue

[10:22:01.0000] <tylerr>
Morning folks.

[10:22:02.0000] <Hixie>
ah

[10:22:03.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[10:22:04.0000] <tylerr>
Hey there Lachy, just jumped in and I wanted to say I agree with you on the image maps.

[10:23:00.0000] <Lachy>
my use case that I had to implement earlier today was a world map where hovering over each country had a hover effect

[10:23:01.0000] <Lachy>
/me is looking up the flash version I'm converting to HTML

[10:25:00.0000] <Lachy>
http://australia-revealed.com/index2.html (sorry, you have to go the long way cause it's flash) --> click Programming tab (bottom) then "Outback Cowbys" (top), and finally "Schedule" (right)

[10:26:00.0000] <tylerr>
Ah nice, so you'd like to be able to style the polygonal selections. That'd be beautiful if implemented.

[10:27:00.0000] <tylerr>
That map is cool. :-)

[10:27:01.0000] <Lachy>
I had a look at the DOM inspector in Mozilla today and showed weird styles for the area elements.  it listed styles that applied to the map element instead

[10:30:00.0000] <Lachy>
anyway, I should go to bed.  have fun at the CSSWG meeting, cya later :-)

[10:30:01.0000] <tylerr>
Night Lachy.

[10:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: nn

[10:36:01.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: i agree with your use case

[10:36:02.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: i think it's a csswg issue

[10:36:03.0000] <Hixie>
or xbl

[10:36:04.0000] <Hixie>
at least not a core html issue

[10:38:00.0000] <tylerr>
So folks, anything exciting on schedule for today?

[10:41:00.0000] <Charl>
Hixie: yeah we are working on the labels; things are going a little slow from my side at the moment because i'm struggling with getting connectivity from home

[10:41:01.0000] <Charl>
Hixie: if all goes well that should be sorted within the next week

[10:41:02.0000] <Hixie>
no worries

[10:41:03.0000] <Charl>
one of those perks of staying in africa i guess ;)

[10:42:00.0000] <Charl>
thanks

[10:42:01.0000] <Hixie>
:-)

[10:47:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, it's actually an issue I sort of brought up on www-style back in 2004 :-)

[10:49:00.0000] <Lachy>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2004Feb/0529 (geez, it's funny to look at the kind of things I wrote back then)

[10:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah i usually find that my old e-mails are weird to me

[10:52:01.0000] <Hixie>
i often find i totally agree with everything i wrote, all the arguments and everything, and get a totally different conclusion

[10:54:00.0000] <Lachy>
well, that one was back when I was young and naiive, and focussed on solutions rather than use cases - the same thing I complain about with newbies today ;-)

[10:54:01.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[10:54:02.0000] <Hixie>
my problem used to be ignoring the real world

[10:55:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'd suggest things that are ideally correct but wouldn't actually be implementable without difficulties

[10:56:00.0000] <Lachy>
yeah, that'd be where that blog entry about people who don't realise they're wrong came from

[10:56:01.0000] <Hixie>
yup

[10:56:02.0000] <Lachy>
anyway, really off to bed this time, cya (again)

[10:56:03.0000] <Hixie>
nn

[11:05:00.0000] <jacobolus>
hi.  question about block/inline links.  I have some chunk of content that I want to turn into a single link.  I made it an <a></a>, and then stuck a bunch of block elements inside of that.  This seems to work just fine in Webkit/Gecko, but the w3c validator of course doesn't like it

[11:05:01.0000] <jacobolus>
so is there any way to make a block element with an href, or is there another mechanism to make a block element act as a link?

[11:05:02.0000] <jacobolus>
without resorting to javascript?

[11:06:00.0000] <jacobolus>
(actually, it seems that webkit will even accept nested <a></a> elements, which can be kinda fun ;) )

[11:07:00.0000] <jacobolus>
Hixie: maybe you have some idea?

[11:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
what's the content?

[11:08:01.0000] <jacobolus>
a div, and a ul

[11:08:02.0000] <jacobolus>
with a thumbnail and a description

[11:08:03.0000] <Hixie>
ah, then no, not really

[11:09:00.0000] <jacobolus>
so we should just use javascript?

[11:09:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Or turn each part of it into a link

[11:09:02.0000] <Hixie>
turning each part into a link is probably best

[11:09:03.0000] <jacobolus>
how to turn each part into a link?

[11:09:04.0000] <jacobolus>
we want the whole background to be clickable

[11:10:00.0000] <Dashiva>
That's trickier

[11:10:01.0000] <Hixie>
i'd recommend making one part into an explicit link, and then using an onclick handler on the outer box to make that link get followed

[11:10:02.0000] <jacobolus>
/me pasted http://pastie.textmate.org/49849

[11:10:03.0000] <jacobolus>
here's our example

[11:10:04.0000] <Dashiva>
But it reminds me of something else. Often you want to make a link which looks like a standard UA button. How about a predefined class which styles an <a> to look like <input type="button"> or <button>?

[11:11:00.0000] <Hixie>
just use a button :-P

[11:11:01.0000] <jacobolus>
i guess we could just make the title and the image clickable.

[11:12:00.0000] <jacobolus>
it's just kind of a drag to require putting the href in twice

[11:12:01.0000] <Hixie>
i'd make the title be the <a>

[11:12:02.0000] <Hixie>
and then put a <div> around the whole thing

[11:12:03.0000] <Hixie>
and make that have an onclick which does

[11:12:04.0000] <Dashiva>
Hixie: Buttons don't have hrefs, typically

[11:12:05.0000] <Hixie>
onclick="location = this.getElementsByTagName('a')[0].href"

[11:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
Dashiva: they do in WF2 (well it's called action="", but same idea)

[11:13:01.0000] <Hixie>
Dashiva: <form><button action="foo.html">Go!</button></form>

[11:13:02.0000] <Hixie>
or in HTML4, even:

[11:13:03.0000] <jacobolus>
Hixie: but then that has to be written in every div? or we have to add that with javascript?

[11:13:04.0000] <Hixie>
<form action="foo.html"><button>Go!</button></form>

[11:14:00.0000] <Hixie>
jacobolus: yeah each <a> in your current example would be replaced by a <div onclick="location = this.getElementsByTagName('a')[0].href">

[11:14:01.0000] <jacobolus>
yeah.  that's kinda ugly. i guess we can have some javascript add that on page load or something

[11:14:02.0000] <jacobolus>
but the existing markup is very clean

[11:14:03.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[11:15:00.0000] <Hixie>
we're looking at allowing <a> in other places

[11:15:01.0000] <jacobolus>
or we could just let it be invalid :) (but maybe that's a bad idea)

[11:16:00.0000] <krijnh>
jacobolus: just invalidate it; http://krijnhoetmer.nl/stuff/html5/block-level-anchors/ :)

[11:17:00.0000] <jacobolus>
wouldn't want to incur the wrath of the w3c ;)

[11:17:01.0000] <krijnh>
Ow, wait, me neither, use the onclick thingy ;)

[11:18:00.0000] <jacobolus>
krijnh: good to know it works in every browser though :)

[11:18:01.0000] <krijnh>
Didn't test on a Mac

[11:18:02.0000] <jacobolus>
seems to work in firefox/camino/safari

[11:19:00.0000] <jacobolus>
krijnh: wait, are all the boxes on that page supposed to be green?

[11:19:01.0000] <krijnh>
Doesn't in Lynx :(

[11:19:02.0000] <jacobolus>
krijnh: should the top two be green?

[11:19:03.0000] <krijnh>
Well, should

[11:19:04.0000] <krijnh>
I don't know

[11:19:05.0000] <krijnh>
The bottom three are

[11:19:06.0000] <krijnh>
But they have a { display: block; } applied

[11:20:00.0000] <jacobolus>
right

[11:20:01.0000] <jacobolus>
krijnh: maybe you should clarify that?

[11:20:02.0000] <krijnh>
Yeah, I should, sorry I'm not that good at clarifying things

[11:21:00.0000] <krijnh>
Most stuff in, well, /stuff/, isn't clarified :)

[11:21:01.0000] <jacobolus>
fair enough :)

[11:21:02.0000] <jacobolus>
Hixie: so, how fearful is the wrath of the w3c?

[11:21:03.0000] <Hixie>
the top two shouldn't be green without display:block no

[11:21:04.0000] <Hixie>
hey maciej

[11:21:05.0000] <Hixie>
jacobolus: ?

[11:21:06.0000] <othermaciej>
hey Hixie

[11:22:00.0000] <jacobolus>
Hixie: rather, how fearful should we be of teh wrath of the w3c

[11:22:01.0000] <jacobolus>
nevermind :P

[11:22:02.0000] <Hixie>
we = whatwg?

[11:22:03.0000] <krijnh>
jacobolus: There is none

[11:22:04.0000] <jacobolus>
no, we = content authors :)

[11:22:05.0000] <othermaciej>
what wrath of the w3c?

[11:23:00.0000] <krijnh>
othermaciej: when using <a><block-level></a>

[11:23:01.0000] <krijnh>
Invalid ^

[11:23:02.0000] <othermaciej>
well, that's invalid but works

[11:24:00.0000] <krijnh>
Yeh

[11:24:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: anne, hsivonen, marcos__ and I came up w/ this last night, any comments before I send it to the html wg list: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples

[11:24:02.0000] <krijnh>
Hixie: How does Googlebot handle that btw?

[11:24:03.0000] <csarven>
is it true that `textarea` doesn't format the characters in utf-8?

[11:26:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: i had a comment on #html-wg

[11:26:01.0000] <Hixie>
18:29 <         Hixie>|http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/papers/opera.html might be a good place to start for design principles (re earlier conversation)

[11:28:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: a lot of the items there already exist under different names; I'll try to incorporate any that are not reflected or that are insufficiently clear as stated

[11:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
cool

[11:29:00.0000] <othermaciej>
"Backwards compatibility, clear migration path" is, I think, the same basic thing as "Don't Break The Web" / "Degrade Gracefully"

[11:29:01.0000] <gsnedders>
othermaciej: I think it may be sensible to have something about some sort of basic forwards compatibility

[11:29:02.0000] <othermaciej>
though the latter is less focused on IE6 and doesn't go into detail about how working in unsupported browsers might make use of script, style, bindings, etc

[11:30:00.0000] <othermaciej>
gsnedders: what do you mean by forwards compatibility?

[11:31:00.0000] <gsnedders>
othermaciej: things  like specifying whether unknown elements should be put in DOM, whether they should be block or inline, whether they can be styled, etc.

[11:31:01.0000] <moeffju>
+1

[11:31:02.0000] <othermaciej>
gsnedders: I think that would fall under "degrade gracefully"

[11:32:00.0000] <othermaciej>
you need a rule for unknown elements to be able to count on consistent handling of them as features are added

[11:32:01.0000] <gsnedders>
othermaciej: possibly. I'd assume degrade would mean already existing things, though, unless explicitly said

[11:33:00.0000] <othermaciej>
well, yes, it's not mainly about second-guessing what things can be in future specs

[11:33:01.0000] <s|k>
er

[11:33:02.0000] <s|k>
which should we be using

[11:33:03.0000] <s|k>
in the future, xhtml or html?

[11:33:04.0000] <othermaciej>
HTML4 already says what to do with unknown elements (they are in the DOM, inline, and can be styled)

[11:33:05.0000] <s|k>
I had no idea there was an html 5 planned

[11:34:00.0000] <othermaciej>
s|k: in the present, you should probably be using html, in the future, who knows what will happen?

[11:34:01.0000] <kingryan>
there is no xhtml

[11:34:02.0000] <kingryan>
/me waves hand sideways

[11:35:00.0000] <s|k>
I've been using xhtml for years now

[11:35:01.0000] <s|k>
even though IE doesn't understand text/xhtml

[11:35:02.0000] <gsnedders>
s|k: ignoring lack of support of IE and GoogleBot?

[11:35:03.0000] <s|k>
;\

[11:35:04.0000] <gsnedders>
text/xhtml?

[11:35:05.0000] <gsnedders>
no such MIME type…

[11:35:06.0000] <s|k>
doesn't it work with firefox?

[11:36:00.0000] <gsnedders>
if it works with anything, I'll be amazed.

[11:36:01.0000] <gsnedders>
application/xhtml+xml is the XHTML MIME type

[11:36:02.0000] <s|k>
well that's what I meant

[11:36:03.0000] <gsnedders>
rather large difference…

[11:36:04.0000] <s|k>
hrm

[11:37:00.0000] <s|k>
wait no I generally do text/xml for xml

[11:37:01.0000] <s|k>
should I be doing application?

[11:37:02.0000] <s|k>
using*

[11:37:03.0000] <gsnedders>
text/xml MUST have the content-type specified at the transport level, if it isn't ISO-8859-1

[11:37:04.0000] <gsnedders>
wait… US-ASCII

[11:37:05.0000] <s|k>
I'm getting a lot of strange characters from you

[11:37:06.0000] <s|k>
 wait⦠US-ASCII

[11:38:00.0000] <gsnedders>
any encoding in the prolog is meaningless

[11:38:01.0000] <gsnedders>
s|k: all the messages I'm sending are UTF-8

[11:39:00.0000] <s|k>
xhtml works for me just fine

[11:39:01.0000] <s|k>
and I prefer it to html 

[11:39:02.0000] <gsnedders>
I prefer support of major UAs.

[11:40:00.0000] <gsnedders>
XHTML as text/html relies on UAs not following the spec

[11:40:01.0000] <s|k>
well will HTML 5 feature the same benefits of xml? device independence? easily integrated into new applications?

[11:40:02.0000] <s|k>
if the web were valid xhtml, my life would be really easy

[11:40:03.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: for backcompat in particular it's critical to explain exactly what is meant

[11:40:04.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: i usually think of it as three separate things:

[11:41:00.0000] <Dashiva>
If everybody instantly changed to using unicode variants everywhere, that would help a lot too

[11:41:01.0000] <Dashiva>
But I doubt it'll happen overnight, or even over the decade

[11:41:02.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: uas implementing the new spec should be able to handle old docs without any differences

[11:41:03.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: right now we have two separate things (maybe 4 depending on how you count)

[11:42:00.0000] <othermaciej>
that one is the "Don't Break The Web" principle - old content should work in UAs implementing the new spec

[11:42:01.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: docs written to the old spec should be able to have features from the new spec added without unrelated changes

[11:42:02.0000] <gsnedders>
s|k: how is XML device independent? how is it easily integrated?

[11:42:03.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't think that one is expressed

[11:43:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I added 

[11:43:01.0000] <othermaciej>
"Handle Errors" and a more general "Well-Defined Behavior"

[11:43:02.0000] <s|k>
gsnedders: every language and framework I develop in has very powerful xml integration

[11:44:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
benoitt's <document> proposal is <iframe> with controller="" (or ui="" or whatever)

[11:44:01.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: and old uas should be able to render content using new features in ways that aren't fatal - you should be able to write new docs that provide equivalent although not necessarily as wonderful functionality

[11:44:02.0000] <Hixie>
to old uas, i mean

[11:44:03.0000] <gsnedders>
s|k: well, surely that's more up to the languages and frameworks to provide the integration?

[11:44:04.0000] <Hixie>
i.e. graceful degradation

[11:44:05.0000] <s|k>
gsnedders: with xhtml I have the option of using xpath and xquery

[11:44:06.0000] <s|k>
and DOM

[11:44:07.0000] <Hixie>
which i assume you have

[11:44:08.0000] <s|k>
and etc

[11:44:09.0000] <othermaciej>
that one is "Degrade Gracefully"

[11:45:00.0000] <gsnedders>
s|k: the issue of namespaces in HTML is unresolved. DOM is a separate standard, and has rules for HTML already

[11:46:00.0000] <s|k>
gsnedders: my point is that from a developer perspective, XML is better supported, at least in the tools I work with, than SGML and HTML. There are more options, and more flexibility, and it's more readable 

[11:46:01.0000] <s|k>
that last part though is subjective

[11:46:02.0000] <s|k>
I know

[11:46:03.0000] <othermaciej>
there's nothing specific about being able to use new features without unrelated changes

[11:47:00.0000] <othermaciej>
nothing specific about scripting, avoiding profiles, or open process

[11:48:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't think open process is a design principle

[11:48:01.0000] <gsnedders>
s|k: writing a spec you can do little about support. if languages chose to support it, so be it. HTML5, not being based on SGML, will be easier to parse

[11:48:02.0000] <s|k>
oh it's not based on SGML?

[11:48:03.0000] <othermaciej>
I think many of the stated principles imply and assume that scripting is ok, not sure if it needs to be called out again

[11:48:04.0000] <gsnedders>
no

[11:48:05.0000] <s|k>
what's it based on?

[11:48:06.0000] <gsnedders>
s|k: itself

[11:48:07.0000] <s|k>
I see

[11:48:08.0000] <othermaciej>
also, profiling html is clearly out of scope for the group

[11:49:00.0000] <hasather>
s|k: it's based on browser practice

[11:49:01.0000] <s|k>
uh oh

[11:49:02.0000] <gsnedders>
s|k: most documents (including all XHTML served as text/html) rely on browser's error handling, which goes against SGML. HTML5 is partly about standardising error correction

[11:49:03.0000] <s|k>
I get that comment about User Agents gsnedders was making now

[11:49:04.0000] <s|k>
well I am all for standardizing the error correction

[11:49:05.0000] <gsnedders>
s|k: in both cases, both WHATWG and W3C's HTML WG, will have both XML and HTML serialisations of the standard

[11:50:00.0000] <s|k>
personally I wish browsers didn't correct errors

[11:50:01.0000] <s|k>
ahhhh

[11:50:02.0000] <s|k>
I get it

[11:50:03.0000] <s|k>
it's like RDF

[11:50:04.0000] <s|k>
and the dublin core

[11:50:05.0000] <gsnedders>
how?

[11:50:06.0000] <s|k>
it can have an xml schema

[11:51:00.0000] <s|k>
or it can have some other implementation

[11:51:01.0000] <s|k>
it's implementation independent I guess

[11:51:02.0000] <s|k>
or am I misunderstanding it?

[11:51:03.0000] <gsnedders>
it can only have two serialisations

[11:51:04.0000] <s|k>
oh okay

[11:53:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: I added the third form of compatibility as "Evolution Not Revolution"

[11:53:01.0000] <othermaciej>
"Don't Reinvent The Wheel" and "Pave The Cowpaths" are arguably also forms of compatibility (in the sense of compatibility with existing practice)

[11:56:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I support cowpaths

[11:58:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: Have you had any feedback on the canvas globalCompositeOperation since http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-June/006771.html ? (If not, I believe I could write up something useful about how it is / should be implemented)

[11:58:01.0000] <kingryan>
othermaciej, Hixie: this is all sounding very familiar (http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats) :D

[11:59:00.0000] <othermaciej>
kingryan: not entirely an accident

[11:59:01.0000] <kingryan>
:D

[12:03:00.0000] <othermaciej>
not really quite the same though

[12:09:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
if the spec has SHOULD requirements for support of various other things, would we need to write test cases for those as well in order to move beond CR?

[12:10:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
if so, then i think such a list should just be non-normative guidelines

[12:11:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
such a list may become obsolete in 15 years from now too

[12:12:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I'm not sure how much it makes sense to test SHOULD-level requirements

[12:13:00.0000] <gsnedders>
zcorpan_: for which WG?

[12:13:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
othermaciej: fair enough

[12:13:02.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: in meeting, dunno, there's lots of canvas feedback i haven't yet dealt with but feel free to send more

[12:14:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: so long as you have descriptions as well as the titles :-)

[12:15:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: there are descriptions

[12:15:01.0000] <Hixie>
good good :-)

[12:15:02.0000] <Hixie>
ship it

[12:46:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
"Error handling should be defined interoperably.", is this some construction of english i don't understand or is the sentence wrong? shouldn't it be "Error handling should be defined so that interoperable implementations can be achieved." or something like that?

[12:51:00.0000] <othermaciej>
zcorpan_: that sounds better

[12:51:01.0000] <othermaciej>
zcorpan_: please feel free to improve it

[13:19:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
om_lunch: ok

[13:53:00.0000] <jacobolus>
Hixie: go here (http://dev.laptop.org/pub/content/newlib/) and click on math & science

[13:53:01.0000] <jacobolus>
Hixie: i think we'll just go with the invalid markup (block a's) for now

[13:54:00.0000] <jacobolus>
the rest of that page is of course in various stages of disrepair :)

[14:56:00.0000] <Hixie>
hmm

[14:56:01.0000] <Hixie>
if someone sets loopCount to 0, we should ignore it? or raise an exception?

[14:57:00.0000] <othermaciej>
probably good to clamp it to 1 or greater

[14:58:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I'm not a big fan of exceptions on property setting

[15:26:00.0000] <webben>
Does/could HTML5 have any sort of official profiling system for UAs? such that one might have graphical UAs with a certain profile (e.g. support for PNG, OGG, Vorbis), end-user UAs which provide certain UI functionality, etc?  would that be useful or un-useful?

[15:26:01.0000] <webben>
(just looking through recent discussions re <video>

[15:27:00.0000] <othermaciej>
HTML5 is against profiles

[15:27:01.0000] <webben>
what does it mean to be against profiles?

[15:27:02.0000] <othermaciej>
some sort of baseline integration spec for desktop browsers might be interesting, but I don't know who would have motive to make it

[15:28:00.0000] <webben>
what's the difference between the two?

[15:28:01.0000] <webben>
(or do you mean HTML5 is against, but profiles might still be useful?)

[15:28:02.0000] <Lachy>
profiling segregates the web into websites built for one type of UA, and other other web sites for everything else

[15:28:03.0000] <Lachy>
it's already happening with the mobile profile, for instance

[15:28:04.0000] <hsivonen>
webben: do you mean that the browser would advertise its capabilities to server or scripts? or do you mean requiring implementors to ship particular features in one go?

[15:29:00.0000] <webben>
hsivonen: primarily the later actually

[15:29:01.0000] <hsivonen>
webben: won't work

[15:29:02.0000] <Lachy>
that wouldn't work in practice

[15:29:03.0000] <webben>
hsivonen: i don't think authors should depend on featuresets: e.g. they should have text fallbacks

[15:29:04.0000] <hsivonen>
webben: HTML5 is being implemented piecemeal

[15:29:05.0000] <Lachy>
again, mobiles are attempting it and failing miserably

[15:30:00.0000] <webben>
hsivonen: well sure, but one could build profiles piecemeal too

[15:30:01.0000] <hsivonen>
webben: which is a bit of a problem for the usefulness of conformace checking against the full spec

[15:30:02.0000] <othermaciej>
it would be good to have an agreement among implementors for something to target

[15:30:03.0000] <othermaciej>
right now there is a super vague rough almost-consensus

[15:31:00.0000] <webben>
it would be interesting to have actual targets set (e.g. (say) implement a given CSS3 module by date X)

[15:31:01.0000] <webben>
perhaps

[15:31:02.0000] <bewest>
/me would be shocked to see MS agree to such a thing

[15:31:03.0000] <webben>
agreed by at least the major non-IE browsers

[15:31:04.0000] <webben>
bewest: MS is a special case.

[15:31:05.0000] <Lachy>
I'd like to see all browsers ship <video> support within 12 to 18 months

[15:31:06.0000] <bewest>
yes

[15:32:00.0000] <bewest>
the market distribution would have to change

[15:32:01.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: it would certainly be nice for authors to have Opera, Apple and Mozilla implement the features roughly in the same order instead of each vendor implementing different pieces during the transitional period

[15:32:02.0000] <othermaciej>
it would be nice to see a complete and correct implementation of CSS 2.1

[15:32:03.0000] <othermaciej>
in even one browser, let alone all

[15:32:04.0000] <webben>
bewest: thinking of Outlook 2007, MS is doing okay as long as they don't go backwards  ;)

[15:32:05.0000] <bewest>
then it seems highly impractical

[15:32:06.0000] <othermaciej>
hsivonen: it's not really practical for us to synch schedules, let alone priorities

[15:32:07.0000] <Lachy>
webben, what?  Outlook 2007 is backwards

[15:32:08.0000] <webben>
othermaciej: that's less important actually than implementing the same things

[15:32:09.0000] <webben>
Lachy: that's what i mean

[15:33:00.0000] <Lachy>
oh, ok

[15:33:01.0000] <hsivonen>
I don't disagree about what would be nice, I just don't believe Hixie could enforce requirements on vendor schedules and priorities

[15:33:02.0000] <bewest>
sure

[15:33:03.0000] <webben>
othermaciej: e.g. at the end of the day, more helpful to ordinary authors to implement a common subset of CSS than to implement different subsets in pursuit of complete implementation

[15:33:04.0000] <othermaciej>
we do talk to each other

[15:33:05.0000] <Lachy>
I don't think it would be worth enforcing in a spec either

[15:33:06.0000] <othermaciej>
but we are also competitors to some extent and don't have identical goals

[15:33:07.0000] <bewest>
we == (vendors - MS)?

[15:33:08.0000] <webben>
othermaciej: sure. But anything like this would have to work through areas of consensus.

[15:34:00.0000] <othermaciej>
of course any feature that becomes popular will more likely see rapid implementation in other browsers

[15:34:01.0000] <webben>
(hopefully stuff like CSS, PNG, XBL support is an area of consensus)

[15:34:02.0000] <bewest>
I suppose you could come up with some kind of consumer group that rates things, much like consumer reports

[15:34:03.0000] <bewest>
and they could enforce timelines for a particular kind of rating

[15:34:04.0000] <othermaciej>
well, afaik no browser has complete/correct CSS 2.1, even though that is the rough consensus target for CSS

[15:35:00.0000] <othermaciej>
PNG is generally agreed, but there are details

[15:35:01.0000] <Lachy>
if, e.g. WF2 was implemented in FF, it would start taking off

[15:35:02.0000] <bewest>
but that's completely different from a standards body doing such a thing

[15:35:03.0000] <othermaciej>
for instance, only Safari respects embedded color profiles in PNGs

[15:35:04.0000] <webben>
maybe ... SVG and MathML aren't exactly taking off and they're implemented in FF (and XForms too with an addon)

[15:35:05.0000] <webben>
(admittedly the MathML implementation is presentational)

[15:36:00.0000] <Lachy>
SVG and MathML can't really be used in HTML and aren't backwards compatible with IE

[15:36:01.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: my vanity feed suggests that PNG color management in Safari causes confusion :-/

[15:36:02.0000] <Lachy>
WF2 was designed with back compat in mind

[15:36:03.0000] <othermaciej>
SVG is seeing implementation in other browsers

[15:36:04.0000] <webben>
Lachy: I suspect a decent JS implementation of WF2 is much more important than FF support.

[15:36:05.0000] <webben>
all authors need is a plugin toolkit a la scriptalicious or something

[15:37:00.0000] <webben>
because that's what will be needed for IE

[15:37:01.0000] <Lachy>
yeah, unfortunately, the current WF2 script is horrible

[15:37:02.0000] <othermaciej>
hsivonen: part of the problem is that we don't do colormatching for untagged images

[15:37:03.0000] <Lachy>
anyway, I gotta go

[15:37:04.0000] <Lachy>
cya

[15:37:05.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: actually, not doing color management for untagged images is the Right Thing. people were more upset pre-Tiger, when you did

[15:39:00.0000] <othermaciej>
hsivonen: colormatching for everything would be good

[15:39:01.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: shipping OS X with 2.2 gamma default would be a far easier fix

[15:39:02.0000] <othermaciej>
hsivonen: we don't do it for untagged images in part because we can't get plugin changes to match

[15:39:03.0000] <othermaciej>
hsivonen: well that's out of my hands

[15:40:00.0000] <othermaciej>
anyway, colormatching, whoo hoo

[15:41:00.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: I don't object to all-encompassing opt-in color management

[15:41:01.0000] <othermaciej>
just an example of how listing something you support doesn't give very strong guarantees

[15:45:00.0000] <webben>
but a consensus group could articulate whether to support stuff like color management

[15:45:01.0000] <webben>
perhaps such things actually work better separately from the specs

[15:45:02.0000] <webben>
since in practice browser makers pick and choose what to implement any how

[15:46:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I had one very confrontational situation at WWDC 2005 and it was with the prepress guy who seriously dislike me voicing my opinion about color management default in WebKit

[15:46:01.0000] <othermaciej>
color management is a quality-of-implementation issue

[15:46:02.0000] <webben>
why not push for implementation of color management elsewhere?

[15:46:03.0000] <othermaciej>
so it's not clear agreement is necessary or good

[15:47:00.0000] <webben>
or is safari's implementation broken in some way?

[15:47:01.0000] <othermaciej>
it would be like agreeing exactly how to rasterize text

[15:47:02.0000] <webben>
(don't know much about the details of PNG so I don't really know what the issue is)

[15:47:03.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: my point was that color consistency within a page is more important than color managing a piece of the page

[15:47:04.0000] <othermaciej>
windows doesn't really have good color management APIs, so it would be hard to do there

[15:47:05.0000] <hsivonen>
in general to be safe, that is. 

[15:47:06.0000] <webben>
how does photoshop do it on win then?

[15:47:07.0000] <othermaciej>
hsivonen: that's why we don't do colormatching for untagged images (well, that and the perf hit)

[15:48:00.0000] <othermaciej>
but for a tagged image, it's likely to look terrible if you do no colormatching, and it is assumed the author has expressed a preference for color "correctness" over consistency

[15:51:00.0000] <jacobolus>
hsivonen: untagged images should be assumed to be sRGB

[15:52:00.0000] <jacobolus>
hsivonen: that's the spec, and would create the least problems

[15:52:01.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: nope

[15:52:02.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: untagged images should be assumed to be in the same color space as CSS colors

[15:52:03.0000] <jacobolus>
hsivonen: yes, that's right

[15:52:04.0000] <jacobolus>
css colors are sRGB

[15:52:05.0000] <jacobolus>
or should be

[15:53:00.0000] <jacobolus>
that's the spec

[15:54:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: the reality is that in most implementations, by default, CSS colors are in the system color space

[15:54:01.0000] <jacobolus>
hsivonen: yes, which means on a mac everything looks different than it looks everywhere else

[15:54:02.0000] <jacobolus>
because in most systems, system color space ~= sRGB

[15:54:03.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: people write all sorts of things in specs

[15:55:00.0000] <jacobolus>
okay, but this one is actually a good idea

[15:55:01.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: see shipping OS X with 2.2 gamma above

[15:55:02.0000] <jacobolus>
hmm, well that just makes every interface designed for 1.8 gamma overnight look crappy

[15:55:03.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: the Mac 1.8 default seriously is not worth the grief

[15:56:00.0000] <jacobolus>
what you mean is, the lack of color management in web browsers isn't worth it

[15:56:01.0000] <jacobolus>
hsivonen: esp. in 2-3 years this will be a huge problem

[15:56:02.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: no.

[15:56:03.0000] <jacobolus>
display gamuts, white points, etc. will diverge

[15:56:04.0000] <jacobolus>
quality can exceed sRGB, etc.

[15:56:05.0000] <hsivonen>
what I am saying is pretty much in http://hsivonen.iki.fi/png-gamma/

[15:57:00.0000] <jacobolus>
hsivonen: the only good (IMO) reason hyatt gave me for not color managing css colors was that flash would break

[15:57:01.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: moreover, aligning the Mac system color space with the world that we cannot change would be practical

[15:57:02.0000] <jacobolus>
hsivonen: okay, but not everyone in the future is going to be sRGB

[15:57:03.0000] <jacobolus>
hsivonen: take for instance the One Laptop Per Child machines

[15:57:04.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: sRGB is bullshit

[15:58:00.0000] <jacobolus>
their screens aren't even close to sRGB

[15:58:01.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: but 2.2 gamma is reality everywhere except in Apple's niche

[15:58:02.0000] <jacobolus>
argh.  you aren't getting it.  the gamma issue is not the problem.  the lack of color management is the problem

[15:58:03.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: I don't object to color management. I object to gratuitously different baseline

[15:58:04.0000] <jacobolus>
it's not gratuitous

[15:59:00.0000] <jacobolus>
print designers have been using it for 20 years

[15:59:01.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: you sound like the prepress guy at WWDC 2005 :-)

[15:59:02.0000] <jacobolus>
i'm not a prepress guy, but I can see where they're coming from

[15:59:03.0000] <jacobolus>
anyway, at the point where you have color management, it *really* doesn't matter whether it's 1.8 or 2.2

[15:59:04.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: color management in every trivial app is a nice pie in the sky

[16:00:00.0000] <jacobolus>
hmm/

[16:00:01.0000] <jacobolus>
?

[16:00:02.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: but if you have uncalibrated hardware, color management is garbage in, garbage out

[16:00:03.0000] <jacobolus>
color management is pretty much a reality in 99% of where it matters on the mac, *except* the web

[16:00:04.0000] <jacobolus>
whatever.  it's still better than assuming all hardware has the same characteristics

[16:00:05.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: making OS X default to 2.2 gamma would remove the gratuitous incompatibility for the best benefit per cost

[16:01:00.0000] <jacobolus>
well, the cost would be every app has to completely redesign its interface

[16:01:01.0000] <jacobolus>
and the benefit would be almost nothing, except for letting browsers not worry about color management

[16:01:02.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: not even close on the Mac. I have my parents run their Macs at 2.2 gamma to make Windows-oriented camera and print workflows work right

[16:02:00.0000] <jacobolus>
windows-oriented camera/print workflows work just fine

[16:02:01.0000] <jacobolus>
OS X image frameworks take embedded profiles into account

[16:02:02.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: I run at 1.8 to avoid double darkening when watching West Wing

[16:02:03.0000] <jacobolus>
so if your camera stores images in sRGB, everything just works

[16:02:04.0000] <jacobolus>
watching west wing?

[16:02:05.0000] <jacobolus>
/me shrugs

[16:03:00.0000] <hsivonen>
the old TV app sucked and didn't take the display profile into account

[16:03:01.0000] <hsivonen>
(I should checke if my new TV software suffers from the same bogosity)

[16:03:02.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: West Wing has dark colors

[16:03:03.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: and the TV app hard-coded gamma correction with 1.8 display target

[16:06:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: and it is pointless to say that color managed workflows with devices designed to interoperate with Windows PCs work, when I can see that they work better with 2.2 gamma without color management than with 1.8 gamma and color management on

[16:11:00.0000] <hsivonen>
hendry: congrats on Debian bug #413926.

[16:15:00.0000] <jacobolus>
hsivonen: dunno.  i have no color-management issues on my mac with 1.8 gamma ;)

[16:16:00.0000] <jacobolus>
hsivonen: either way though, browsers should do color management of css colors

[16:17:00.0000] <jacobolus>
right now, css colors look wildly different than their intent when moving from one display to another

[16:18:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I so didn't want to raise this discussion topic

[16:18:01.0000] <jacobolus>
i'm not really a 1.8 gamma partisan: I don't much care what gamma the display has beyond using the gamma that application designers were targeting :)

[16:18:02.0000] <hendry>
hsivonen: thanks

[16:18:03.0000] <jacobolus>
othermaciej: sorry

[16:18:04.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: sorry, too

[16:18:05.0000] <hendry>
hsivonen: you see http://webconverger.com/about/ ? :)

[16:19:00.0000] <hendry>
my dad bought a Macbook today. I am trying to figure out where the terminal is... any recommended Mac resources to get started?

[16:19:01.0000] <jacobolus>
othermaciej: who can i talk to at macrodobe to get them moving?

[16:19:02.0000] <hsivonen>
hendry: hadn't seen it before

[16:19:03.0000] <jacobolus>
i'm happy to go pester them instead of webkit guys :)

[16:20:00.0000] <jacobolus>
hendry: the terminal is in /applications/utilities/

[16:20:01.0000] <hendry>
i see no applications :

[16:20:02.0000] <jacobolus>
hendry: umm.  it should be in the root of the boot volume

[16:21:00.0000] <hsivonen>
hendry: /Applications/Utilities

[16:21:01.0000] <jacobolus>
isn't that what I just said? :)

[16:21:02.0000] <hendry>
oh yes! found it

[16:22:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: you said it in lower case

[16:22:01.0000] <jacobolus>
well hfs+ is usually case-insensitive

[16:22:02.0000] <jacobolus>
;)

[16:22:03.0000] <hendry>
hsivonen: i was wondering is there was a way of decorating the table column in CSS in http://webconverger.com/about

[16:24:00.0000] <hsivonen>
hendry: are you familiar with http://ln.hixie.ch/?count=1&start=1070385285 ?

[16:24:01.0000] <hendry>
i still have not figured out how right click works with the track pad. I am also amazed it can't recognise my external USB fat32 hard drives.

[16:24:02.0000] <jacobolus>
webben: photoshop does color management by assuming untagged images are in the "working space", which could be sRGB or Adobe RGB (though you can decide how it should treat them, or get a prompt when opening untagged images if you want)

[16:25:00.0000] <jacobolus>
hendry: put 2 fingers on the trackpad, and click the button

[16:25:01.0000] <hendry>
hsivonen: ah, tahnks for than

[16:25:02.0000] <jacobolus>
hendry: or do ⌃ + click

[16:26:00.0000] <hendry>
two fingers thing doesn't work me

[16:27:00.0000] <hendry>
what the hell is "⌃"?

[16:27:01.0000] <hsivonen>
hendry: ctrl

[16:27:02.0000] <hendry>
anyway, is there some apple support channel out there?

[16:27:03.0000] <hendry>
hsivonen: thanks again

[16:27:04.0000] <jacobolus>
hendry: ⌃ == ctrl

[16:28:00.0000] <jacobolus>
hmm, dunno about mac support channels.  i just ask mac support questions in ##textmate ;)

[16:30:00.0000] <hendry>
hey, can we try ichat? though... do I really have to sign up for a .Mac account?

[16:30:01.0000] <jacobolus>
no, it is AIM

[16:30:02.0000] <kingryan>
it does jabber, too

[16:30:03.0000] <jacobolus>
and can also work with jabber (so probably google talk?)

[16:32:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jacobolus: google's jabber server: yes. audio interop: no

[16:33:00.0000] <jacobolus>
hendry: this might be useful: http://arswiki.info/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

[16:38:00.0000] <hendry>
my id is kai.hendry⊙gc if you'll like to try ichat

[16:40:00.0000] <hendry>
jacobolus: thanks for the link

[16:41:00.0000] <jacobolus>
hey, is there any distinction between "0" and "0px" in css?

[16:42:00.0000] <webben>
hendry: sure there's #mac for one

[16:43:00.0000] <jacobolus>
like is margin:0; ever different from margin:0em; or margin:0px;

[16:43:01.0000] <webben>
jacobolus: better to address such Qs to #css but the answer is no, and 0 is the preferred syntax

[16:44:00.0000] <webben>
0em and 0ex and 0px  being superfluous units

[16:44:01.0000] <jacobolus>
sorry, i'll duck out of here now :)  thanks all for the earlier answers about <a> blocks :)


2007-03-28
[17:34:00.0000] <Hixie>
should  start < loopStart < loopEnd < end be enforced, or should it be possible to have a timeline like  |---<loopStart>---<start>---<loopEnd>---<end>---|

[17:34:01.0000] <Hixie>
?

[17:34:02.0000] <Hixie>
(othermaciej?)

[17:37:00.0000] <Lachy_>
I don't think it would make sense to have loopStart before start

[17:37:01.0000] <Lachy_>
but shouldn't it be start <= loopStart < loopEnd <= end

[17:37:02.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: yo

[17:37:03.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: in meeting

[17:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
you could imagine a case where you loop and you have a sound between the loops but not at the start or end

[17:38:01.0000] <Hixie>
that would need loopStart or loopEnd to be outside the start...end bit

[17:38:02.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: I'm not sure - seems like there is no need to force it

[17:38:03.0000] <Hixie>
k

[17:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
we do have to assume that the starts are before the ends, i think

[17:39:01.0000] <othermaciej>
yes

[17:40:00.0000] <othermaciej>
impossible to splice together a sane timeline otherwise

[17:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[22:32:00.0000] <tylerr>
Evening all.

[22:35:00.0000] <Lachy_>
Hi tylerr

[22:35:01.0000] <tylerr>
Hey! Lachy_, how's it going? :-)

[22:37:00.0000] <Lachy_>
I'm fine, u?

[22:37:01.0000] <Lachy_>
how are you going with those articles?  made any progress?

[22:37:02.0000] <tylerr>
Trying to come up with a half-witty, half-relevant site name.

[22:38:00.0000] <Lachy_>
I thought you were just going to publish them on the whatwg blog

[22:38:01.0000] <tylerr>
Oh I am, this is for my personal one. :-)

[22:38:02.0000] <tylerr>
And I've got the groupings figured out. I'm now working on use cases.

[22:39:00.0000] <Lachy_>
are you trying to plan all articles at the same time, or just working on 1 at a time?

[22:39:01.0000] <tylerr>
Working on one group at a time.

[22:40:00.0000] <tylerr>
So say for the "prose" section, I'd like a few use cases.

[22:42:00.0000] <tylerr>
One that covers <p> and <hr>/<br> and one that covers <dialog>.

[22:42:01.0000] <tylerr>
So on and so forth through the rest of the sections.

[22:43:00.0000] <tylerr>
I'll also have an article that addresses the various predefined class names.

[22:46:00.0000] <Lachy_>
<dialog> is easy: IRC or instant message chat logs!

[22:47:00.0000] <tylerr>
Lachy_: You read my mind. :-)

[22:47:01.0000] <Lachy_>
I don't think you should really bother covering such basic elements as <p>, <br>, <hr>, etc.  They're already widely used and generally people know what they're for

[22:47:02.0000] <tylerr>
Can you imagine <dialog> tags injected with Microformat hCard code? Mmm...

[22:48:00.0000] <Lachy_>
nah, that was one of the use cases we had in mind when we came up with dialog

[22:48:01.0000] <tylerr>
Oh sure, that would be for my beginner articles.

[22:48:02.0000] <tylerr>
Ahh.

[22:48:03.0000] <Lachy_>
it was also to address the mistake in HTML4 that <dl> could be used for dialog

[22:49:00.0000] <tylerr>
Aye, I always wondered about that. Now it makes sense to use <dt> and <dd> inside a <dialog>.

[22:49:01.0000] <Lachy_>
/me wants to do one on video soon, as soon as the draft stabalises

[22:49:02.0000] <tylerr>
Nice!

[22:49:03.0000] <tylerr>
I'd consider doing a <canvas> to start.

[22:50:00.0000] <Lachy_>
I don't want to do canvas, it's been done before (elsewhere)

[22:50:01.0000] <Lachy_>
but you can do it

[22:50:02.0000] <tylerr>
Oh. I'll find the link. I don't want to reinvent the wheel.

[22:50:03.0000] <tylerr>
I'd rather "pave the cowpaths". ;-)

[22:50:04.0000] <tylerr>
Instead of widen the road.

[22:50:05.0000] <Lachy_>
there's plenty of articles on canvas, it's been around for nearly 2 years

[22:50:06.0000] <Lachy_>
look up Plot Kit

[22:51:00.0000] <tylerr>
Ah see, this is what I get for wanting to expand my horizons in web development only a month or so ago.

[22:51:01.0000] <tylerr>
Thanks will do.

[22:51:02.0000] <Lachy_>
also ExplorerCanvas on source forge

[22:52:00.0000] <tylerr>
So far all I've focused on is accessibility and standards-based design, so I haven't explored many of the custom elements.

[22:52:01.0000] <tylerr>
*browser elements

[22:53:00.0000] <tylerr>
What's the port for the W3 server? I'm setting up my home connection to it.

[22:56:00.0000] <Lachy_>
the IRC server?

[22:56:01.0000] <Lachy_>
irc://irc.w3.org:6665/html-wg

[22:56:02.0000] <tylerr>
Great thanks! (was looking for the 6665 part)

[09:40:00.0000] <annevk>
http://doyouwanttodie.com/2007/03/27/more-changes/

[09:40:01.0000] <annevk>
(my reply is a reference to what he wrote on his about page)

[09:52:00.0000] <gavin_>
haha

[09:54:00.0000] <gsnedders>
reality sucks

[10:01:00.0000] <Dashiva>
annevk is going all philosophical on us

[10:01:01.0000] <Dashiva>
next it'll be analogies about butterflies and boulders, no doubt about it

[11:18:00.0000] <othermaciej>
hello all

[11:19:00.0000] <annevk>
hi maciej

[11:19:01.0000] <Hixie>
hey

[11:21:00.0000] <othermaciej>
hi annevk 

[11:21:01.0000] <othermaciej>
hello Hixie 

[11:22:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, when will you commit the new video stuff so I can read some diff?

[11:22:01.0000] <annevk>
/me reads /source atm

[11:24:00.0000] <annevk>
also, " If the same URI has been registered multiple times, removing it must only remove one instance of that URI for each invokation of the method." contains a markup error around "method"

[11:24:01.0000] <annevk>
everything after it is marked up as <code>

[11:25:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: when it's done, right now i have a few more paragraphs to do

[11:26:00.0000] <annevk>
fair enough

[11:26:01.0000] <Hixie>
it'd be done last week if i hadn't started feeling ill over the weekend and then had the csswg meeting this week

[11:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
markup should be fixed

[11:28:00.0000] <Philip`>
(For that quote: "Did you mean: invocation")

[11:31:00.0000] <othermaciej>
wow, Gerv got really worked up over codecs

[11:31:01.0000] <othermaciej>
/me wonders whether to reply or just let the conversation end

[13:24:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: is <video> v1 going to have a default scriptless way to start and stop the video?

[13:24:01.0000] <annevk>
contextmenu

[13:26:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I think v1 should, by default, allow controller UI on hover and at minimum allow play/stop without script, e.g. by clicking the video.

[13:27:00.0000] <hsivonen>
disabling these should be done by the script when the script wants to take over

[13:27:01.0000] <hsivonen>
if minimum default UI isn't in v1, it is going to hurt later on

[13:27:02.0000] <hsivonen>
and disabling the UI via an attribute is bad, because it isn't known if scripts will run

[13:28:00.0000] <hsivonen>
s/at minimum allow/at minimum require/

[13:30:00.0000] <annevk>
the idea is to enable the UI through an attribute

[13:32:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: I disagree then. I haven't read all the <video> messages, yet, so I've been hesitant to send my UI-related opinions to the list

[13:32:01.0000] <Hixie>
we're already past v1

[13:32:02.0000] <om_lunch>
I don't think you want both UA ui and custom script-driven UI on the same element

[13:32:03.0000] <Hixie>
but we're going to have a declarative way of enabling ui, yes

[13:32:04.0000] <othermaciej>
(good day gentlemen)

[13:32:05.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: why not script-based disabling of the UI?

[13:32:06.0000] <Hixie>
or that

[13:32:07.0000] <Hixie>
same idea basically

[13:33:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: more reliable

[13:33:01.0000] <Hixie>
i agree the second is more reliable

[13:33:02.0000] <Hixie>
it also causes flicker though

[13:33:03.0000] <othermaciej>
the conditions under which you have video but not script seem unlikely

[13:33:04.0000] <othermaciej>
except for people with a script phobia that exceeds their desire to successfully browse the web

[13:33:05.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: not if the spec gives guidance that the UI should not change the dimensions of the replaced element

[13:34:00.0000] <hsivonen>
e.g. it should be superimposed on hover as in iTunes or full-screen QuickTime Player

[13:34:01.0000] <othermaciej>
doesn't that go a bit too far in mandating the UI?

[13:35:00.0000] <othermaciej>
especially since very little web-based video has a UI like that currently?

[13:35:01.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: the use case is that you aren't youtube and just want to include video to illustrate some prose

[13:35:02.0000] <othermaciej>
hsivonen: in which case you say <video ui=on> or whatever

[13:36:00.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: considering all the issues Apple's own docs have had to cover about the movie controller height, I'm pretty convinced that a superimposed UI is the way to go

[13:36:01.0000] <othermaciej>
hsivonen: well, the HTML spec seems like a bad place for novelties in UI design

[13:36:02.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: it is not novel. QuickTime supports it already

[13:37:00.0000] <othermaciej>
can you point me to a web video with hover controls?

[13:37:01.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: we're not mandating ui (what if the ui is that the controls are in another window, and the window can dock to hte <video>, and...)

[13:37:02.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: but i'm sure there's a good solution for this, i'll look into it when i'm doing fixing looping and seeking

[13:37:03.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: sure, but you could mandate that the UI mustn't change the size of the replaced element rectangle

[13:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: opera's second <video> element demo implements their ui by hovering over the video :-)

[13:38:01.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: I don't have Web examples off the top of my head although I have a feeling that I've seen such Flash

[13:39:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, we have a native UI or you mean controls done by the page?

[13:39:01.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: anyway, the precedent I'm citing is iTunes

[13:39:02.0000] <annevk>
/me should prolly download some internal builds...

[13:39:03.0000] <othermaciej>
hey, I don't think hover UI is bad or wrong, I just think it's not the norm, so saying UAs are required to do it is inappropriate (even more so than normal mandating of UI)

[13:40:00.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: how would you otherwise deal with the size of the replaced element rectangle staying predictable?

[13:42:00.0000] <othermaciej>
hsivonen: I'm guessing default UI controls are most likely to be desirable in cases where you are not doing extensive pixel-perfect styling; but regardless, as long as there is a way to set the size of the video content box, I think that is good enough

[13:42:01.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: native

[13:42:02.0000] <Hixie>
oh

[13:42:03.0000] <Hixie>
uh

[13:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
"we" = oper

[13:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
a

[13:43:02.0000] <Hixie>
you have html controls by the page

[13:43:03.0000] <Hixie>
which overlay the <video>

[13:43:04.0000] <annevk>
we should prolly unify the <video> events and progress events...

[13:43:05.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: I don't know if the QuickTime for Windows controller is now as tall as the Mac version, but in the past it wasn't and it sucked big time for QuickTime embedding

[13:43:06.0000] <Hixie>
they are

[13:43:07.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, ah ok

[13:43:08.0000] <annevk>
progress events doesn't have "stalled" and "begin" is "loadstart"

[13:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
they have 'begin' last i checked

[13:44:01.0000] <Hixie>
'stalled' is new, yes

[13:44:02.0000] <annevk>
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/progress/Progress.html?rev=1.10

[13:44:03.0000] <Hixie>
but that's video-specific probably

[13:44:04.0000] <Hixie>
when did begin become loadstart

[13:44:05.0000] <Hixie>
weird

[13:44:06.0000] <Hixie>
ok

[13:44:07.0000] <Hixie>
well the idea is that they are synced

[13:45:00.0000] <annevk>
k

[13:45:01.0000] <Hixie>
i'll fix it again when one of the two drafts is more stable

[13:45:02.0000] <Hixie>
(either one)

[13:45:03.0000] <othermaciej>
hsivonen: I agree it's annoying - default controller will probably only be useful for cases like having it as a <figure> in the middle of a blog post where you don't care about metrics of the whole element

[13:46:00.0000] <othermaciej>
is "stalled" really needed?

[13:46:01.0000] <othermaciej>
isn't what you really care about current expectation of playability, not network transfer rate?

[13:46:02.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: authors tend to care about metrics anyway when they are happy with non-scripted play control

[13:47:00.0000] <annevk>
maybe <figure> around <video> can imply ui=on ?

[13:47:01.0000] <othermaciej>
you could still reasonably have custom controls inside a <figure>

[13:47:02.0000] <annevk>
not with the current semantics of <figure>

[13:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
can't find when begin became loadstart. weird.

[13:48:01.0000] <Hixie>
oh well

[13:48:02.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: implicit stuff like that could become confusing

[13:48:03.0000] <othermaciej>
I complained about it being "begin" I think

[13:48:04.0000] <Hixie>
what should we do if 'start' or 'loopstart' or 'loopend' or 'end' are beyond the end of the clip?

[13:48:05.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: ah :-)

[13:49:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: they should be limited to [0, duration]

[13:49:01.0000] <annevk>
duration isn't necessarily known

[13:50:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: k

[13:50:01.0000] <othermaciej>
annevk: to the author, or to the UA?

[13:50:02.0000] <othermaciej>
in the Apple proposal we had language about what to do for not-yet-known duration and for unbounded streams

[13:51:00.0000] <othermaciej>
(don't remember details)

[13:51:01.0000] <annevk>
the UA

[13:51:02.0000] <annevk>
well, author too I suppose

[13:51:03.0000] <othermaciej>
unknown duration is NaN, and in that case you can't really put limits on timeline bounds, stream would be +Inf

[13:52:00.0000] <othermaciej>
(I think)

[13:52:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I'm not sure all the features have been carefully considered in light of streaming

[13:52:02.0000] <annevk>
i hope someone will scream in case of conflict :)

[13:53:00.0000] <othermaciej>
well, not a lot of people have been doing close review of the details

[13:53:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Apple folks will definitely continue to review

[13:53:02.0000] <othermaciej>
I think we will also be proposing some more features based on our open issues doc

[13:54:00.0000] <annevk>
I wonder how captioning will work

[13:54:01.0000] <annevk>
some kind of external file?

[13:54:02.0000] <othermaciej>
accessibility is one of the first things we want to address

[13:54:03.0000] <othermaciej>
multimedia formats can have timed text tracks

[13:54:04.0000] <othermaciej>
in multiple languages even

[13:54:05.0000] <Hixie>
yeah i need to do a careful review to handle unbounded and unknown duration

[13:55:00.0000] <othermaciej>
the tricky part is how to select which tracks to play

[13:55:01.0000] <Hixie>
still, one thing at a time :-)

[13:55:02.0000] <annevk>
yeah, I heard chaals ask for multilangual support

[13:55:03.0000] <othermaciej>
they can also have multi-language soundtracks

[13:56:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: the WHATWG probably should avoid reinventing captioning 

[13:56:01.0000] <Hixie>
good lord yes

[13:56:02.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: it has already been specced for the Ogg family and for the MP4 family

[13:56:03.0000] <Hixie>
i was hoping that we'd just let the UA offer the UI for that in the context menu (egg)

[13:56:04.0000] <Hixie>
eg, even

[13:56:05.0000] <othermaciej>
what we need is support for controlling the captioning already in video

[13:57:00.0000] <othermaciej>
but not, IMO, a new format for captions

[13:57:01.0000] <hsivonen>
although Apple's implementation exhibits serious suckage if the filename ends in .mp4 instead of .3gp

[13:57:02.0000] <hsivonen>
(doesn't make sense)

[13:57:03.0000] <othermaciej>
really? what happens?

[13:58:00.0000] <othermaciej>
does it work for .m4v?

[13:58:01.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: things become rediculously CPU-intesive and therefore potentially slow

[13:58:02.0000] <hsivonen>
dunno

[13:58:03.0000] <hsivonen>
/me looks up markp's post

[13:58:04.0000] <othermaciej>
that's really weird

[14:00:00.0000] <hsivonen>
http://diveintomark.org/archives/2006/07/27/imagination#comment-7180

[14:00:01.0000] <hsivonen>
also http://diveintomark.org/archives/2006/07/23/video-howto

[14:02:00.0000] <othermaciej>
well, I'll point it out to our media guys

[14:02:01.0000] <met_>
annevk, http://glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?2007/03/28/3391-answer-to-anne-van-kesteren

[14:03:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't think generic MPEG-4 should imply codec restrictions, but maybe it does for some reason

[14:03:01.0000] <annevk>
met_, I saw, but wasn't entirely sure what he meant

[14:03:02.0000] <met_>
still not read it fully

[14:04:00.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: IIRC, the container has an artificial restriction so that you mustn't put in non-MPEG (or non-MPEG-4?) video and audio

[14:04:01.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: .3gp stretches the audio side to allow AMR 

[14:04:02.0000] <annevk>
http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-link doesn't seem to solve the issues I pointed out, but maybe he meant something else...

[14:05:00.0000] <othermaciej>
hsivonen: I tried to get the media folks to explain it to me - apparently, the "ISO Base File Format" has no restrictions, but MPEG-4 also includes specs of restricted versions and descriptions of how to include certain codecs

[14:07:00.0000] <met_>
annevk, just read is, feel littel confused too

[14:07:01.0000] <met_>
s/is/it/

[14:19:00.0000] <Hixie>
i just regenned the spec

[14:19:01.0000] <Hixie>
there are open issues (like when to apply 'start')

[14:21:00.0000] <annevk>
it doesn't deal with setting loopCount

[14:21:01.0000] <annevk>
is there a document btw that explains the need for looping for video?

[14:23:00.0000] <othermaciej>
hsivonen: audio/mpeg4-generic MIME type might have worked in markp's case

[14:24:00.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: he seems to assume download followed by MIME-unaware playing from the disk

[14:24:01.0000] <hsivonen>
othermaciej: that's what I did to confirm the issue last year

[14:25:00.0000] <Hixie>
we're gonna have to deal with seeking to arbitrary points

[14:25:01.0000] <Hixie>
i thought it did deal with setting loopcount

[14:25:02.0000] <Hixie>
but i'll look after lunch

[14:25:03.0000] <Hixie>
we're gonna have to deal with seeking to points that aren't in the media, rather (e.g. because the end is unknown)

[14:25:04.0000] <othermaciej>
hsivonen: I don't know if there is an extension corresponding to that MIME type

[14:26:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I guess the real conflict is serving on web vs. supporting on ipod

[14:26:01.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, well, setting loopCount to 0 for instance

[14:28:00.0000] <annevk>
hmm, maybe I should study the algorithm more closely

[14:40:00.0000] <annevk>
raman makes a good point about <em> versus <i>

[14:42:00.0000] <annevk>
(and several other good points in related threads)

[14:43:00.0000] <annevk>
oh, I suppose I should have said that in #html-wg ...

[14:43:01.0000] <annevk>
/me schrugs

[14:45:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I need to figure out what people mean by "extensibility"

[14:46:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I'm not sure they all mean the same thing

[14:46:01.0000] <annevk>
<object>

[14:46:02.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't think that is what they mean

[14:46:03.0000] <othermaciej>
they want to be able to add tags

[14:46:04.0000] <annevk>
or as howcome recently said: <i> <object>

[14:47:00.0000] <annevk>
oh, right

[14:47:01.0000] <othermaciej>
but I'm not sure who they want to be able to add them, who should see them, and what effects adding has (styling? API? effect on conformance checkers?)

[14:47:02.0000] <othermaciej>
I need to understand this to know if the right answer is "use XBL"

[14:47:03.0000] <annevk>
mnot from Y! wants random elements (maybe namespaced) he can hang behavior to himself

[14:48:00.0000] <annevk>
raman from Google seems to want markup that can trigger a plugin that renders the markup

[14:48:01.0000] <annevk>
(prolly similar to how you can have inline SVG in HTML in IE trigger the Adobe player)

[14:48:02.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: mnot? on which list?

[14:49:00.0000] <annevk>
his blog I think

[14:49:01.0000] <hsivonen>
oh

[14:49:02.0000] <othermaciej>
I think binary plugin APIs would be out of scope

[14:49:03.0000] <annevk>
and in person (otherwise / too)

[14:49:04.0000] <hsivonen>
/me has 1235 unread feed items

[14:49:05.0000] <othermaciej>
hanging behavior or styling off an element, the author can already do with CSS+JS; XBL will provide a better way

[14:49:06.0000] <annevk>
othermaciej, it's a processing instruction

[14:50:00.0000] <annevk>
but yeah, I don't think we should specify something like that

[14:50:01.0000] <othermaciej>
annevk: specifying the PI is pretty useless without a spec for how the plugins work, isn't it?

[14:51:00.0000] <annevk>
IE supports namespaces in text/html through a PI. A plugin can hook into a namespace

[14:51:01.0000] <annevk>
I think that's sort of how it works

[14:51:02.0000] <othermaciej>
sure, but what's the API for how you provide DOM elements and hook into the layout?

[14:52:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I'm assuming it's some ActiveX thing

[14:52:01.0000] <annevk>
oh, dunno

[14:54:00.0000] <annevk>
I'm not really convinced with the extensibility stuff. Having the community in total control of the language seems better.

[14:54:01.0000] <othermaciej>
/me shrugs

[14:55:00.0000] <othermaciej>
it sounds more like a feature request than a design principle

[14:55:01.0000] <othermaciej>
though HTML does have some support for extensibility, via class and defined handling for unknown elements

[14:56:00.0000] <annevk>
/me wonders how you'd do simplified markup yet keeping all the features

[14:56:01.0000] <othermaciej>
a lot of wikis do it by also letting you include HTML markup

[14:57:00.0000] <othermaciej>
which presumably you use in case of anything hard

[14:57:01.0000] <othermaciej>
but that makes it pretty hard to define parsing

[14:57:02.0000] <annevk>
quite

[14:58:00.0000] <annevk>
"architectural framework"

[14:59:00.0000] <annevk>
/me isn't sure how people can use that phrase lightly

[15:13:00.0000] <annevk>
http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-xml2007predictions.html

[15:23:00.0000] <annevk>
/me -> bed

[15:25:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: as far as i can tell, changing loopCount is taken care of.

[15:37:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I'm surprised that IBM page doesn't mention HTML5 or the new HTML working group at all

[15:38:00.0000] <othermaciej>
oh, it's Elliotte Rusty Harold

[15:39:00.0000] <hasather>
othermaciej: it does mention HTML5. Also, it's from february so the new WG wasn't born

[15:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
it says "I don't see a big future for the WHAT Working Group's Web Forms 2.0. It's got some nice bells and whistles, but it doesn't change anything."

[15:40:01.0000] <hasather>
doesn't change anything? Right

[15:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
it has some other amusing quotes

[15:42:00.0000] <bewest>
actually that's a compliment, isn't it?

[15:42:01.0000] <bewest>
nice bells and whistles and doesn't change anything

[15:42:02.0000] <bewest>
isn't that the goal?

[15:44:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Some pavement for the cowpaths was part of the plan too, I think

[15:45:00.0000] <Hixie>
bewest: yeah that's why i quoted it. It exactly described what we tried to do, and said we succeeded.

[15:45:01.0000] <Hixie>
score!

[15:48:00.0000] <bewest>
yeah

[15:48:01.0000] <bewest>
high fives all around

[15:50:00.0000] <tylerr>
Hixie: Was that the "The Future is XHTML2" article?

[15:50:01.0000] <Hixie>
hm?

[15:51:00.0000] <bewest>
actually, it seems this author is into technology for technology's sake

[15:51:01.0000] <Dashiva>
He seems to like the letter x a lot

[15:51:02.0000] <bewest>
yeah... for a killer app to be truly successful, you probably wouldn't know what technology it used

[15:52:00.0000] <bewest>
so "semantic web killer app" is kind of an oxymoron

[15:52:01.0000] <tylerr>
Hixie: http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-futhtml2.html?ca=dgr-lnxw87XHTML2

[15:52:02.0000] <tylerr>
Though it's from Jan 06.

[15:52:03.0000] <bewest>
tylerr: http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-xml2007predictions.html

[15:52:04.0000] <tylerr>
Ah I didn't see that one.

[15:52:05.0000] <tylerr>
Lovely!

[15:52:06.0000] <bewest>
meh... it's kind of lame

[15:53:00.0000] <tylerr>
Ah well then I'll read it with a scowl on my face. ;-)

[15:53:01.0000] <bewest>
not very user-centric

[15:54:00.0000] <tylerr>
/me nods

[15:58:00.0000] <chin1>
so ar eyou the guys who are controlling the w3c draft for html 5.0 ?

[15:58:01.0000] <kingryan>
chin1: for some values of "control", yes

[15:59:00.0000] <bewest>
we control the whatwg draft of html5

[15:59:01.0000] <bewest>
the html-wg controls the w3c draft

[16:02:00.0000] <chin1>
hm weird

[16:03:00.0000] <kingryan>
/me just realized which room he's in :D

[16:03:01.0000] <chin1>
why do this ?

[16:03:02.0000] <bewest>
we don't know

[16:03:03.0000] <Hixie>
well, there wasn't a w3c draft when we started, and w3c wouldn't do it

[16:03:04.0000] <kingryan>
it's fun!

[16:03:05.0000] <Hixie>
now they are going to do it, and so we will probably just work with them

[16:04:00.0000] <bewest>
or they will work with us

[16:04:01.0000] <bewest>
or something

[16:04:02.0000] <bewest>
who knows

[16:04:03.0000] <bewest>
or they'll continue talking about spreadsheets and forums

[16:04:04.0000] <chin1>
well i've got a draft for you

[16:04:05.0000] <chin1>
hey is there a chat for the html-wg too ?

[16:04:06.0000] <bewest>
yes

[16:07:00.0000] <Hixie>
irc.w3.org port 6665 channel #html-wg

[16:07:01.0000] <bewest>
fwiw the w3c doesn't have a draft of anything yet

[16:07:02.0000] <chin1>
lol oh #htmlwg i gues chanserv is the only one who cares

[16:08:00.0000] <chin1>
ok who should i rant to first you guys or them ?

[16:09:00.0000] <othermaciej>
well, if you have a big dicussion topic, email might be the best starting point

[16:09:01.0000] <chin1>
you mean mailing list ?

[16:10:00.0000] <othermaciej>
yes

[16:11:00.0000] <othermaciej>
but if you give a general description of the topic you want to discuss, we could advise you even better on the appropriate forum

[16:11:01.0000] <othermaciej>
hello KevinMarks 

[16:13:00.0000] <chin1>
well i see now that fx3 will support getElementsByClassName (gebcn) and if you ask me there is way to many functions that do the same thing ... getElementBy<whatever>... well a while back i was writing a simple dom parser and instantly thought why not something that could take a list of attributes to match against... well i rolled out a prototype and with some help of others it works very well now and i called it ... getElementsByAttrib

[16:15:00.0000] <othermaciej>
the Web API working group has a spec for something even more general than that

[16:15:01.0000] <othermaciej>
getElementsBySelector

[16:15:02.0000] <othermaciej>
which uses a CSS selector

[16:15:03.0000] <othermaciej>
though I think I will propose to rename it to cssQuery

[16:16:00.0000] <bewest>
<3 getElementsBySelector

[16:17:00.0000] <bewest>
dean edwards has a really nice version that optimizes it based on the browser, as well

[16:18:00.0000] <othermaciej>
yes, and having it native in some browsers will hopefully allow even better performance

[16:19:00.0000] <othermaciej>
though in that case browsers will have to make sure their selectors implementation is at least as fast as their XPath

[16:19:01.0000] <Hixie>
it'd better be

[16:20:00.0000] <chin1>
yea thats something like the jQeury approach

[16:20:01.0000] <chin1>
and thats a css type selector

[16:20:02.0000] <Hixie>
since the selectors one is run much more frequently than the xpath one...

[16:20:03.0000] <chin1>
well mine is a js type selector that is based on properties

[16:20:04.0000] <Hixie>
(like, every time you move the mouse)

[16:20:05.0000] <chin1>
actually it accepts 3 types of tests... scalar, regex, and your own supplied function... and things like    {hasChildNodes: true}   since hasChildNodes is a function it will execute it on your behalf and test it vs the given value

[16:21:00.0000] <chin1>
i can defitnetly see were a css selector is a huge powerfull beast

[16:21:01.0000] <chin1>
but its based on what css selectors can do ... why limit our selves ?

[16:23:00.0000] <chin1>
var el_array = gebi( { tagName: 'DIV', hasChildNodes: true, className: /car/i }, startNode, limit, depth ) 

[16:23:01.0000] <othermaciej>
CSS selectors can select based on attributes

[16:23:02.0000] <othermaciej>
though not an arbitrary regexp or function test

[16:23:03.0000] <chin1>
sorry i should of used geba not gebi as short for getElementsByAttributes

[16:23:04.0000] <KevinMarks>
does it do ~= ?

[16:24:00.0000] <chin1>
yea well in csss you can do things like type="text" sure ... but what about hasChildNodes or any other element property ?

[16:24:01.0000] <chin1>
whats ~= ?

[16:24:02.0000] <chin1>
isn't ~= a perl like syntax for regex test ?

[16:25:00.0000] <othermaciej>
~= in selectors is attribute token match

[16:25:01.0000] <othermaciej>
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/#attribute-selectors

[16:25:02.0000] <chin1>
oh yea its a css feature not supported yet i haven't read into them much

[16:25:03.0000] <chin1>
let me read up on it 

[16:26:00.0000] <othermaciej>
there is exact, prefix and token match

[16:26:01.0000] <othermaciej>
for attribtues

[16:26:02.0000] <othermaciej>
no regexp match

[16:27:00.0000] <chin1>
well like you siad mine allows you to provide a custom function to do whatever test your heart desires plus will the css selector merly verify that the element has a attribute called "hasChildNodes" or will it acurately detect that its a method and execute it to test the result ?

[16:28:00.0000] <chin1>
so exact would be like class="example" and you search for "example" and prefix would be like "ex" correct ?

[16:28:01.0000] <chin1>
i dont see what a token is though

[16:28:02.0000] <othermaciej>
if you want to test with custom code, you can just walk the DOM, so I'm not sure native UA support would help

[16:28:03.0000] <chin1>
i mean {className: /^ex/i} is a prefix

[16:29:00.0000] <chin1>
{className: "exact"}

[16:29:01.0000] <chin1>
{className: function(){/* whatever you want */}}

[16:29:02.0000] <chin1>
UA ?

[16:29:03.0000] <othermaciej>
div[class|=example] will match class="example-stuff" but not class="ex"

[16:30:00.0000] <chin1>
{className: function( value ){ if( value.indexOf("blah") != -1 }}

[16:30:01.0000] <chin1>
thats a quicker hack than using regex

[16:30:02.0000] <othermaciej>
div[class~=something] will match class="foo something bar baz"

[16:30:03.0000] <othermaciej>
for class specifically though, that is just div.something

[16:31:00.0000] <othermaciej>
the function thing is unlikely to be quicker to execute

[16:31:01.0000] <othermaciej>
anyway

[16:31:02.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't think this is the right forum

[16:31:03.0000] <othermaciej>
I think if you want to make a proposal, the Web API Working Group would be the best place to make it

[16:31:04.0000] <chin1>
your saying that the overhead of passing a function is slower than using a regex test ?

[16:31:05.0000] <othermaciej>
send mail to public-webapi⊙wo

[16:32:00.0000] <chin1>
from what i undersatnd indexOf is faster htan regex for simple sub string matches but if the extra function inquires that much over head you might be right i haven't tried any benchmarking

[16:32:01.0000] <chin1>
the idea too is that if this was natively supported it would be much faster

[16:33:00.0000] <chin1>
so that sthe email i would find searching on the w3.org ?

[16:34:00.0000] <othermaciej>
yes

[16:35:00.0000] <chin1>
thanks

[16:35:01.0000] <chin1>
well wath do you guys think ?

[16:36:00.0000] <othermaciej>
personally I think Selectors API is a better design

[16:36:01.0000] <othermaciej>
feel free to google for that

[16:43:00.0000] <chin1>
yea i think its great too 

[16:46:00.0000] <bewest>
what regex?

[16:52:00.0000] <chin1>
the css selector thing


2007-03-29
[17:07:00.0000] <chin1>
you guys got an email i can send to along with public-webapi⊙wo at the same time ?

[17:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
hmm

[17:12:01.0000] <Hixie>
how to do the ui thing

[17:12:02.0000] <Hixie>
hmmmmmmm

[17:12:03.0000] <Hixie>
we need a way to allow any ui, but to have the ui immediately appear if there's no js-provided ui, but have the ui not appear at all if there is

[17:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
maybe an event handler?

[17:13:01.0000] <Hixie>
hmmm

[17:14:00.0000] <Dashiva>
What happened to the attribute?

[17:14:01.0000] <Hixie>
the attribute to do what?

[17:14:02.0000] <Dashiva>
To specify if the ui should appear or not

[17:15:00.0000] <Hixie>
you don't want a declarative way of doing it, since you'll only want no ui when you have scripted control

[17:15:01.0000] <Hixie>
so you want the ui to turn _off_ from script

[17:15:02.0000] <Hixie>
and be on by default otherwise

[17:15:03.0000] <Hixie>
the problem is you want a way to turn off the default ui without the ui ever actually appearing in the first place

[17:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
tough one

[17:16:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Ah, you mean so the ui doesn't hide for JS disabled?

[17:16:02.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[17:16:03.0000] <Dashiva>
<noscript>ui="false"<noscript> :)

[17:16:04.0000] <Lachy_>
hi

[17:17:00.0000] <tylerr>
Hi Lachy_.

[17:18:00.0000] <tylerr>
I could have really used the <dialog> element today.

[17:18:01.0000] <Hixie>
Dashiva: yeah but you don't want it to just be js-bound (since then we could just have it be on when js is off), you want it bound to the loading of the actual js in question

[17:18:02.0000] <tylerr>
Had to throw a transcript onto a page for a client.

[17:18:03.0000] <Lachy_>
Hixie, if script is disabled or unsupported, the UI should show by default (perhaps depending on user prefs).

[17:19:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Hixie: So basically, a script should be able to ping in (probably on load or domcontentloaded) to say "I'm here, go away ui"

[17:19:01.0000] <Lachy_>
it's when script is enabled, but no script is provided that's harder

[17:19:02.0000] <Hixie>
Dashiva: yeah

[17:19:03.0000] <Hixie>
Dashiva: but it should work without flicker

[17:19:04.0000] <Hixie>
which is the hard part

[17:19:05.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: how about declare to have UI on, but if script is disabled, UAs MAY show default UI even if not enabled

[17:20:00.0000] <Dashiva>
What if you said "Default UI should not be shown before domcontentloaded is fired" or somesuch?

[17:20:01.0000] <Hixie>
Dashiva: then you get flicker the other way around

[17:20:02.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: we could...

[17:20:03.0000] <othermaciej>
I mean, if we are worried about the special case of not having script, then just trigger off that

[17:20:04.0000] <othermaciej>
but I don't think it's a terribly important case personally

[17:21:00.0000] <Lachy_>
so we need a way to know whether or not a UI is provided as soon as the <video> is added to the DOM, and it seems the only way to do that is with an attribute

[17:21:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Hixie: I wouldn't consider it flicker, it's no different from images taking a while to load even though the page is done

[17:21:02.0000] <Dashiva>
Flicker would be appearing and disappearing again

[17:21:03.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: it's also in the case where the ui js didn't load for some reason

[17:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: but yeah, maybe we shouldn't support it at all

[17:22:01.0000] <Hixie>
Dashiva: ok, bouncing, whatever you want to call it :-)

[17:22:02.0000] <Dashiva>
If you make it fade in, it might even look cool

[17:22:03.0000] <Dashiva>
"cool"

[17:22:04.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[17:23:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy_: it's not the only way

[17:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy_: we could synchronously fire an event handler

[17:23:02.0000] <Hixie>
<video ondecidewhethertohaveui="return false">

[17:23:03.0000] <Hixie>
which fires when the element is inserted

[17:23:04.0000] <Hixie>
or rather, onshowui=""

[17:24:00.0000] <Lachy_>
that still requires an event attribute

[17:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
which you can cancel

[17:24:02.0000] <Hixie>
right, an attribute of some kind, certainly

[17:24:03.0000] <Hixie>
i thought you meant a boolean one, sorry

[17:25:00.0000] <Lachy_>
you could also listen for DOMNodeInserted (or whatever it's called) on the document, and when a video element is inserted, turn the UI off

[17:25:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah, e.g.

[17:25:02.0000] <Hixie>
i'm sort of liking this onshowui="false" solution

[17:26:00.0000] <Hixie>
it looks declarative, solves the no-js situation, and allows advanced decision making without flicker or bouncing

[17:26:01.0000] <Lachy_>
I just don't see the benefit in controlling it via an event handler attribute as opposed to a boolean

[17:26:02.0000] <Hixie>
the boolean isn't linked to the execution of JS, and can't call to check to see whether you really need UI (e.g. check to see if thte relevant .js file loaded at all)

[17:27:00.0000] <Lachy_>
ok

[17:27:01.0000] <Lachy_>
but wouldn't it have to be onshowui="return false;" ?

[17:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
as opposed to?

[17:28:01.0000] <Lachy_>
to what you said above

[17:28:02.0000] <Lachy_>
onshowui="false" would be a JS error

[17:28:03.0000] <Lachy_>
wouldn't it?

[17:28:04.0000] <Hixie>
return is implied on the last statement in JS bodies

[17:28:05.0000] <Hixie>
and the semicolon is optional at end of lines in JS

[17:28:06.0000] <Hixie>
so "return false;" and "false" are exactly equivalent in event handlers

[17:28:07.0000] <Hixie>
aiui

[17:29:00.0000] <Lachy_>
yeah, the return is implied, but it doesn't return the last statment

[17:29:01.0000] <Lachy_>
it returns null

[17:29:02.0000] <Hixie>
really? i thought it returned the last expression.

[17:29:03.0000] <Hixie>
ok, then onshowui="return false"

[17:29:04.0000] <Lachy_>
/me goes to make a test case...

[17:30:00.0000] <Dashiva>
It will "return" the last value if you use javascript: in the address bar, a common annoyance :)

[17:31:00.0000] <Lachy_>
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Ca%20href%3D%22http%3A//www.google.com/%22%20onclick%3D%22false%22%3EImplicit%20Return%3C/a%3E%0A%3Ca%20href%3D%22http%3A//www.google.com/%22%20onclick%3D%22return%20false%22%3EExplicit%20Return%3C/a%3E

[17:31:01.0000] <othermaciej>
making showui an event is kinda hokey

[17:31:02.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy_: indeed

[17:31:03.0000] <Lachy_>
maybe make it oninit, and have a DOM Attribute: video.ui = false;

[17:31:04.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: yeah maybe we don't solve this case, just seems kinda crappy not to though

[17:32:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: the "don't have script on" case?

[17:32:01.0000] <Lachy_>
browsers can always allow users to turn on UI from the context menu

[17:32:02.0000] <othermaciej>
I think my proposal of ui=on to call for UI, plus permission or mandate to turn it on if script is off or unsupported, is sufficient

[17:32:03.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: or the "script isn't working for some reason" case

[17:33:00.0000] <othermaciej>
"script isn't working for some reason" is likely to break much more than your video controls

[17:33:01.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: yeah, i'm just seeing if we can go beyond sufficient. i agree your proposal is the fallback position.

[17:33:02.0000] <othermaciej>
if you depend on script to any significant extent

[17:33:03.0000] <Hixie>
yep

[17:33:04.0000] <Lachy_>
onshowui="return false;" doessn't even handle the case where the rest of the script didn't load

[17:33:05.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't think individual scripts failing to load is something we can turn into a good experience

[17:33:06.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy_: indeed

[17:34:00.0000] <Hixie>
the other thing is do we want to default to a native ui being enabled or not? there are good arguments both ways

[17:34:01.0000] <Philip`>
(Lachy_: JS returns undefined if you fall off the end of a function without a return, rather than null)

[17:34:02.0000] <Hixie>
typically the same arguments, namely "we want that to be the default because it's the more common case and would make life easier"

[17:35:00.0000] <Lachy_>
Philip`: ok

[17:37:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I think asking to turn something on is slightly more tasteful than asking to turn it off, but it doesn't seem like a huge deal

[17:37:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Is it acceptable to delegate to UAs to decide on their own to override and enable UI when scripting is disabled?

[17:37:02.0000] <othermaciej>
if it's just ui=on, that's 5 chars to get default controls

[17:37:03.0000] <othermaciej>
in the script case you need extra script content for the controls you are adding

[17:37:04.0000] <Hixie>
i'm curious how many people are going to bother to use ua-provided ui

[17:38:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I see three user groups: Big sites with branding, small sites with cool web 2.0 custom UIs, and other sites which just want video

[17:38:01.0000] <Dashiva>
The latter group might be tiny

[17:38:02.0000] <Hixie>
the other thing is, would we want ui="" to default to on or off for <audio>?

[17:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: (actually it'd be just three extra characters: <video src='...'> vs <video ui src='...'>)

[17:39:01.0000] <Hixie>
(i'd want <audio> and <video> to have the same default)

[17:39:02.0000] <Dashiva>
I say default on for both video and audio. Hidden sound I can't turn off is a bad idea

[17:39:03.0000] <othermaciej>
I imagine a blogger randomly embedding a video would be happy with default  controls

[17:40:00.0000] <othermaciej>
but they might be embedding from a hosting site which wants you to use their controls

[17:40:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: good point

[17:40:02.0000] <othermaciej>
anyway, I think negatives are a bit harder to understand, since lack of it is then conceptually a double negative

[17:40:03.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[17:40:04.0000] <othermaciej>
if (!video.noui)

[17:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
so that implies default-off

[17:43:00.0000] <othermaciej>
yes, although other considerations could override, but it seems a toss-up otherwise

[17:44:00.0000] <Lachy_>
I'm happy with either default, it makes little difference to me

[17:45:00.0000] <Dashiva>
If default is off, we can equalize "author forgot to specify UI" with "UI script failed to load"

[17:47:00.0000] <Lachy_>
but should we call the attribute ui=""?  Should we expect the average author to understand what UI means?

[17:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
what would you call it?

[17:48:01.0000] <Hixie>
ui is compellingly short

[17:48:02.0000] <Lachy_>
maybe controls="on"

[17:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
this will be a boolean attribute

[17:49:01.0000] <Lachy_>
I know it's short, but UI is a technical term

[17:49:02.0000] <Hixie>
<video controls>

[17:49:03.0000] <othermaciej>
controls="" would be maybe a bit more clear

[17:49:04.0000] <othermaciej>
but a tiny bit longer to type

[17:49:05.0000] <Lachy_>
IIRC, the windows media player plugin uses <param name="controls">

[17:50:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok controls it is.

[17:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
autoplay="".

[17:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
hmm.

[17:51:02.0000] <Hixie>
to do autoplay='' i guess we need to have the new states first

[17:52:00.0000] <othermaciej>
yes, probably

[18:05:00.0000] <Hixie>
this state thing is an interesting problem.

[18:05:01.0000] <Hixie>
there are two sets of state that are relevant that i can see

[18:05:02.0000] <Hixie>
the state from the user/ui perspective, and the state from the ua perspective

[18:07:00.0000] <Hixie>
from the user's perspective, you have playing, not playing because i told it not to play, not playing but it could soon play, and not playing and it won't play

[18:07:01.0000] <Hixie>
these correspond to the current states PLAYING, PAUSED, AUTO-PAUSED, and STOPPED

[18:07:02.0000] <Hixie>
from the ua's perspective, whether you're playing or not is almost incidental

[18:08:00.0000] <othermaciej>
our states are designed from the script-driven control perspective

[18:08:01.0000] <Dashiva>
What about moving in the data at other rates than 1.0?

[18:08:02.0000] <Dashiva>
Is rewinding PLAYING?

[18:08:03.0000] <Hixie>
and you have the states in the apple proposal: no idea what's going on, we tried and it failed, we're loading, we're loading and can render something, we're loading and can play something, we're loading and can play something and it's likely that we won't catch up to our cache, and we're done loading.

[18:09:00.0000] <othermaciej>
each state change is supposed to be tied to some UI change you would make

[18:09:01.0000] <Hixie>
which are the apple states respectively

[18:09:02.0000] <othermaciej>
(although playing or not is also relevant to script-driven UI, but we have one bit for that)

[18:10:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I'm almost tempted to suggest a <stream> element for non-finite video

[18:10:01.0000] <Hixie>
the two sets of states really are parallel but not really overlapping, it's kind of weird, i wouldn't have thought we could come up with two so close yet not overlapping sets of state

[18:10:02.0000] <othermaciej>
well, we just have a "paused" boolean for playing vs. paused

[18:11:00.0000] <Dashiva>
And .currentRate for the velocity, wasn't it?

[18:11:01.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: yeah but you can be paused even when the ui should be showing "playing" as the state, simply because you're buffering

[18:11:02.0000] <othermaciej>
STOPPED is not a distinct state (unless it is the same as UNINITIALIZED) and AUTO-PAUSED is not directly reflected though it can be inferred

[18:11:03.0000] <othermaciej>
yes, we don't consider auto-paused as paused

[18:11:04.0000] <Hixie>
STOPPED is the same as UNINITIALIZED (but easier to spell)

[18:11:05.0000] <othermaciej>
EMPTY might be a good name for that

[18:11:06.0000] <Hixie>
also same as ERROR

[18:11:07.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[18:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me changes STOPPED to EMPTY in the spec

[18:12:01.0000] <othermaciej>
we also don't have a "buffering" boolean

[18:12:02.0000] <Hixie>
yeah "buffering" is basically states 2 through 5 of your state machine

[18:12:03.0000] <othermaciej>
since it is assumed that what you care about is currently available time chunks and when they change

[18:12:04.0000] <Hixie>
well the spec also has buffered

[18:12:05.0000] <Hixie>
which lists the time chunks

[18:13:00.0000] <othermaciej>
yes, that's more informative than our availableDuration boolean

[18:13:01.0000] <othermaciej>
both are kind of weird if you have an implementation that might discard some buffers

[18:13:02.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[18:13:03.0000] <Hixie>
we need an event for when they change

[18:13:04.0000] <othermaciej>
because then you just want to pretend it's all available

[18:13:05.0000] <Hixie>
'buffering' or 'bufferchange' or something

[18:13:06.0000] <othermaciej>
er, availableDuration float, not boolean

[18:14:00.0000] <othermaciej>
we just overloaded durationchange to apply to both duration and availableDuration, but that's kinda lame

[18:14:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah not dealing with duration changes right now, that's for tomorrow or later or something :-)

[18:14:02.0000] <Hixie>
mostly i'm trying to work out what to do with these states

[18:15:00.0000] <Hixie>
i like the simple four-state system we have now, but it needs to handle the stuff you guys have done too

[18:15:01.0000] <Dashiva>
should watch out so there aren't any dead states in the final proposal, like the first few readyStates for xmlhttprequest

[18:16:00.0000] <othermaciej>
well, the extra booleans you have sort of imply extra states

[18:17:00.0000] <othermaciej>
like I said, we tried to tie the state changes to times when a script-driven controller would want to take an action to update the UI

[18:18:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I think with your states, it's impossible to tell whether to enable the play/pause button, since there's no way to determine current playability at all

[18:19:00.0000] <ericcarlson>
There really are two different states to track: loading and playback

[18:19:01.0000] <othermaciej>
and if you want to show some kind of spinner over the video area before there is even an initial frame to show, you can't do that

[18:20:00.0000] <Dashiva>
ericcarlson: But some combinations are mutually exclusive, so by combining them you can remove the impossible ones

[18:20:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Dashiva: but by combining them  you end up with a crazy number of states

[18:20:02.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: that's true, yeah

[18:21:00.0000] <Dashiva>
That's also true

[18:22:00.0000] <othermaciej>
PLAYTHROUGHOK is mainly useful for a script-driven decision to auto-play

[18:22:01.0000] <Hixie>
yep

[18:23:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Although, auto-paused suggests the UA will also auto-resume, probably at that same state, no?

[18:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
hmm

[18:23:02.0000] <othermaciej>
yes, we would treat auto-paused as not paused w/ assumption that UA will auto-resume

[18:23:03.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: would you be ok with having both, playState and readyState ?

[18:23:04.0000] <othermaciej>
since there's no real UI action to take at that time

[18:24:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: I would, but I'd like to be convinced that playState can't be collapsed to a boolean

[18:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: well, it's 2 bits of information. does the ua want to play, and does the user want to play. so i guess it's two booleans.

[18:24:02.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: i'd be ok with two booleans i guess

[18:24:03.0000] <Dashiva>
What's the difference between PAUSED and STOPPED? As I understand playback, pause = stop at current offset, stop = stop at beginning of clip

[18:25:00.0000] <Hixie>
Dashiva: STOPPED is now EMPTY

[18:25:01.0000] <Hixie>
which is basically the same as UNINITIALISED in the apple proposal

[18:25:02.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: not sure what you mean by "does the UA want to play"

[18:25:03.0000] <othermaciej>
it's really more like "is time currently advancing", isn't it?

[18:26:00.0000] <Dashiva>
But for playState, does whether it's stopped or paused really matter? In either case it's not playing.

[18:26:01.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: e.g. when the user agent is seeking, it can't play, even though the user thinks it isn't paused

[18:26:02.0000] <othermaciej>
(I assume in what you call auto-pause, the user still wants to play, but time is not advancing)

[18:26:03.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: right

[18:26:04.0000] <othermaciej>
so we'd represent that as a currentRate of 0 I think

[18:26:05.0000] <othermaciej>
but paused would be false

[18:26:06.0000] <Hixie>
hm

[18:26:07.0000] <Dashiva>
/me likes that

[18:26:08.0000] <Hixie>
i was hoping we could collapse currentRate and playbackRate to one mutable attribute

[18:27:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I'm thinking (not as actual names) preferredRate and actualRate

[18:28:00.0000] <Dashiva>
But are there more states to currentRate than either playbackRate and 0?

[18:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me would like to relegate rate controls purely to the situation of playing back at different rates, rather than have authors have to deal with it even in simple uis

[18:30:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I'm not typing straight, better head to bed. Good luck with the wrangling.

[18:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: btw there seems to be a state missing between UNINITIALZED and UNDERSTANDABLE if you're using the states as a way to report current status

[18:30:02.0000] <Hixie>
namely the state where you're initialised, but haven't yet gotten a response

[18:30:03.0000] <Hixie>
"OPEN", for lack of a better term

[18:32:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: or LOADING maybe

[18:32:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: I think you are right

[18:33:00.0000] <Hixie>
another idea for PLAYABLE vs PLAYTHROUGHOK, not that i like it, much is to have downloadRate, and have people compare that to playbackRate to see if it's safe yet

[18:33:01.0000] <Hixie>
no i guess that doesn't work

[18:33:02.0000] <Hixie>
nevermind

[18:33:03.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: yeah

[18:34:00.0000] <othermaciej>
if you buffer on demand, downloadRate could be changing all the time

[18:34:01.0000] <Hixie>
yup

[18:34:02.0000] <Hixie>
yeah i think that idea sucks

[18:34:03.0000] <Hixie>
you know, we could split out your states into multiple booleans too

[18:35:00.0000] <Hixie>
and just have a farm of booleans, each with its own event

[18:35:01.0000] <Hixie>
not that i like that idea either

[18:35:02.0000] <Hixie>
i'm just thinking out loud here

[18:36:00.0000] <othermaciej>
yes, there could be a bool farm, but I think the state machine diagram is enlightening and would be harder to draw for bools

[18:36:01.0000] <othermaciej>
there would be many invalid combinations

[18:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'm not convinced the current state machine is really right

[18:37:01.0000] <Hixie>
e.g. you could seek and go from playable to playthroughok

[18:38:00.0000] <othermaciej>
that's true

[18:38:01.0000] <Hixie>
and you can get to the empty state from anywhere assuming we keep the method to do close the current video stream

[18:38:02.0000] <Hixie>
at which point it's pretty messy anyway

[18:38:03.0000] <Hixie>
not that i think all bools is better

[18:39:00.0000] <othermaciej>
yeah, I'm not sure a method to close down is all that useful

[18:39:01.0000] <othermaciej>
but that would be logically consistent, to return to EMPTY

[18:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah that's why i added stop() back when i added it, mostly for symmetry. I agree it's not overly useful.

[18:40:01.0000] <Hixie>
we can drop it, i'm not tied to it or anything

[18:40:02.0000] <othermaciej>
you could seek from presentable to playable too

[18:40:03.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[18:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
why can you seek to understandable? is that equivalent to seeking to a part of the stream you don't have any data for?

[18:41:01.0000] <othermaciej>
yes

[18:41:02.0000] <othermaciej>
so you don't have a frame to show for that position

[18:41:03.0000] <othermaciej>
though in that case you most likely want to just keep showing the last frame played

[18:41:04.0000] <Hixie>
so you can seek from there to all the other states too

[18:42:00.0000] <othermaciej>
yeah

[18:42:01.0000] <Hixie>
basically seek can take you from any of the four inner states to any of the other four inner states

[18:42:02.0000] <Hixie>
yeah the current spec says to keep showing hte last frame

[18:42:03.0000] <Hixie>
i'm not sure we want to expose whether or not we have the current playback position's frame's data necessarily

[18:42:04.0000] <othermaciej>
all seek arcs should be bidirectional

[18:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
it makes sense at the start to go from never having had a frame to having the first frame

[18:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
but i don't know that we should expose more than that

[18:43:02.0000] <othermaciej>
I dunno either

[18:43:03.0000] <othermaciej>
/me wonders if ericcarlson has a more informed opinion

[18:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'm tempted to propose having the following states: EMPTY ERROR LOADING BUFFERING LOADED, and having two booleans: canPlay, and canPlayThroughToTheEnd (names obviously not final)

[18:45:00.0000] <othermaciej>
so what event happens when you become playable or stop being playable?

[18:46:00.0000] <Hixie>
an event would happen when canPlay changes, same as now when you go from playing to autopaused and back again

[18:46:01.0000] <othermaciej>
playabilitychanged separate from the states?

[18:46:02.0000] <Hixie>
and an event would happen when canPlayThrough becomes true

[18:46:03.0000] <othermaciej>
so basically this partitions the BUFFERING state into 3 possibilities (since one combo of the booleans is impossible)

[18:46:04.0000] <Hixie>
oncanplaychange and onautoplayready maybe

[18:46:05.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[18:47:00.0000] <Hixie>
and lets ui designers focus on the parts they care about

[18:47:01.0000] <othermaciej>
also not clear on the diff between LOADING and BUFFERING

[18:47:02.0000] <Hixie>
oh LOADING would be the new state that isn't in your system, and BUFFERING is the four middle states

[18:47:03.0000] <othermaciej>
well, all the state changes have an individual event, so that's not too hard to do, except for syncing up to an already operating video

[18:47:04.0000] <Hixie>
LOADING is "we've begun, but don't have any useful data yet so the attributes like height and width aren't useful yet"

[18:48:00.0000] <othermaciej>
UNDERSTANDABLE vs. PRESENTABLE distinction seems to be lost in your system

[18:48:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah, that's the one that i wasn't sure we should expose

[18:48:02.0000] <othermaciej>
(both would be BUFFERING with canPlay and canPlayThroughToTheEnd true)

[18:48:03.0000] <Hixie>
false

[18:48:04.0000] <Hixie>
but yes

[18:48:05.0000] <othermaciej>
er, yeah, false

[18:48:06.0000] <othermaciej>
it is a useful distinction

[18:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
it's useful for the software doing the actual playback, but what ui distinction would you make?

[18:49:01.0000] <othermaciej>
at UNDERSTANDABLE, you know width, height, and possibly metadata like title / artist, track list, etc (future extension)

[18:49:02.0000] <othermaciej>
at PRESENTABLE, you can remove placeholder UI over content area and show the first frame

[18:49:03.0000] <Hixie>
oh, hm, interesting

[18:49:04.0000] <ericcarlson>
the first PRESENTABLE state is important as it is the first time you know there is something to display

[18:49:05.0000] <Hixie>
so yeah you'd want that transition at the first--

[18:49:06.0000] <Hixie>
right

[18:49:07.0000] <Hixie>
what you said

[18:51:00.0000] <ericcarlson>
[cooking dinner for the kids, having a hard time keeping up on the discussion]

[18:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
ericcarlson: i'll make sure whatever we come up with you can review carefully at your leisure

[18:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
so really we want the readyStates to be EMPTY ERROR LOADING [some state meaning that metadata is in but not video or audio data] BUFFERING LOADED

[18:52:01.0000] <ericcarlson>
thx

[18:52:02.0000] <Hixie>
i'm at a loss for a good name though

[18:53:00.0000] <ericcarlson>
LOADING isn't a great name since it is technically "loading" as long as data is being downloaded

[18:53:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I'm not sure collapsing PRESENTABLE / PLAYABLE / PLAYTHROUGHOK into one state plus two bools is very helpful

[18:53:02.0000] <othermaciej>
(the bools would have only one valid setting in every other state)

[18:54:00.0000] <ericcarlson>
I agree, it seems much cleaner to check the state instead of the state and a bool (or two)

[18:54:01.0000] <Hixie>
well you're already going to have to be checking bools left right and center

[18:55:00.0000] <othermaciej>
being >= PLAYABLE is a very basic thing for UI, more so than BUFFERING

[18:55:01.0000] <othermaciej>
since it tells you whether to enable the play button

[18:55:02.0000] <othermaciej>
or dim it

[18:56:00.0000] <othermaciej>
hard to imagine a polished JS controller not caring

[18:56:01.0000] <ericcarlson>
and what does BUFFERING mean when you load on demand?

[18:56:02.0000] <Hixie>
so you'd want the play/pause button to change state as you're seeking?

[18:56:03.0000] <Hixie>
i don't think i've ever seen that

[18:56:04.0000] <Hixie>
but you could do it by just watching canPlay

[18:56:05.0000] <Hixie>
which is imho easier than watching a state

[18:57:00.0000] <Hixie>
the other thing is that right now there's no state for when you're actually seeking

[18:57:01.0000] <Hixie>
i.e. when you're "moving the play head" as it were

[18:57:02.0000] <ericcarlson>
it is instantaneous if the media is buffered

[18:58:00.0000] <Hixie>
no it's not

[18:58:01.0000] <ericcarlson>
no?

[18:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
one of the pieces of feedback i got from the youtube/google video guys is that they were really annoyed that most video apis assumed seek()s were instantaneous (even when they had all the data), because in practice it isn't instantaneous

[18:59:01.0000] <Hixie>
it's quick, for sure

[18:59:02.0000] <Hixie>
but you still have to go and find the last complete frame and then decode all the way to the new frame position before you can play

[19:00:00.0000] <ericcarlson>
true

[19:00:01.0000] <Hixie>
i've seen videos where that can take seconds to do

[19:00:02.0000] <Hixie>
(especially WMA or whatever the windows one is called, for some reason -- sometimes it takes ages to seek)

[19:00:03.0000] <ericcarlson>
yes, MPEG can be the same

[19:01:00.0000] <Hixie>
i have to go now

[19:01:01.0000] <Hixie>
but i'll keep looking at this

[19:01:02.0000] <Hixie>
ttyal

[19:23:00.0000] <Lachy_>
does anyone know of a good article or thread discussing why src on every element is a bad idea, that I can link to in my reply to the latest request on public-html?

[19:24:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I posted something about global attributes in general on whatwg recently

[19:24:01.0000] <othermaciej>
short version:

[19:24:02.0000] <othermaciej>
- annoying to implement

[19:24:03.0000] <othermaciej>
- bad semanticly

[19:25:00.0000] <othermaciej>
- lack of img-specific API / attributes, presence of non-image API

[19:25:01.0000] <othermaciej>
- results on active elements like <input type="checkbox"> are bizzare

[19:26:00.0000] <othermaciej>
- conflates presentational technique of image replacement with semantically meaningful content images

[19:26:01.0000] <othermaciej>
(for this case)

[19:29:00.0000] <Lachy_>
I can't find it in the archives, but we should turn that in to a blog entry

[19:30:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I might have been talking about global href, not global src in this case

[19:30:01.0000] <othermaciej>
don't remember

[19:30:02.0000] <Lachy_>
yeah, I saw threads about href

[19:31:00.0000] <Lachy_>
and Anne has just published one about href on his blog

[20:59:00.0000] <Lachy_>
http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/03/validation_to_conformance.html is interesting.

[21:28:00.0000] <mpt>
"Some HTML is OK" -- W3C

[21:28:01.0000] <mpt>
(gratuitously out-of-context quote, but it was too good to resist)

[21:29:00.0000] <Lachy_>
:-)

[03:58:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, currentLoop should be unsigned long, not float

[04:09:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Is the leap from UNDERSTANDABLE to PRESENTABLE really going to be noticable? Wouldn't it basically consist of loading a single first frame, since UNDERSTANDABLE takes care of all the metadata?

[04:16:00.0000] <annevk>
not just loading the frame but also decoding it

[04:18:00.0000] <Dashiva>
For something going tens of frames per second, that's not a very long time

[04:24:00.0000] <annevk>
I wonder if I should rename UNINITIALIZED to EMPTY as well for XMLHttpRequest...

[04:27:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I wouldn't, since that's a very specific state in xhr

[04:27:01.0000] <Dashiva>
You have to call open before anything else, so it really is uninitialized

[04:28:00.0000] <annevk>
it's exactly the same as EMPTY for <video>, actually

[04:31:00.0000] <annevk>
what makes you think it's different?

[04:42:00.0000] <Dashiva>
The loading states work on how much data has been loaded and understood, so with detaching of video streams and cached data you might go from EMPTY to e.g. PLAYTHROUGHPOSIBLE in one jump

[04:46:00.0000] <annevk>
are you sure the intermediate events wouldn't dispatch?

[04:47:00.0000] <annevk>
anyway, EMPTY is much easier to type than UNINITIALIZED...

[04:47:01.0000] <annevk>
that you have to invoke load() is just how the API works, load() is always invoked for <video> as well currently

[04:54:00.0000] <annevk>
http://programming.reddit.com/info/1d855/comments

[04:54:01.0000] <annevk>
(comments on href= on every element)

[04:54:02.0000] <annevk>
(not very interesting)

[05:05:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: if anything, we should congratulate the XHTML propagandists for being very effective at shifting the Overton Window to their favor

[05:07:00.0000] <hsivonen>
though the WHATWG has clearly shifted the window the other way among key people (the kind who use del.icio.us :-), so it can be expected that the Digg/Reddit masses follow eventually

[05:08:00.0000] <annevk>
it seems Reddit has more sensible people than Digg

[05:08:01.0000] <Dashiva>
I really hope it says HTML5 and doesn't become common to write (X)HTML5. I see enough Xes as it is

[05:09:00.0000] <annevk>
XHTML5 is just the XML serialization of HTML5

[05:09:01.0000] <annevk>
HTML5 is both the language and the HTML serialization which may be a bit confusing...

[05:09:02.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: yes, Reddit people have more clue than Digg users

[06:02:00.0000] <karlUshi>
meuh

[06:03:00.0000] <karlUshi>
[meuh meuh meuuuuh meuuuuuuuuh]

[06:04:00.0000] <annevk>
karlcow is indeed an appropriate nickname for him

[06:27:00.0000] <annevk>
Philip`, are you using -o-2d-game to get the pixel values in Opera or so?

[06:34:00.0000] <Philip`>
Yep, it's the opera-2dgame getPixel

[06:35:00.0000] <Philip`>
(though it always tries getImageData first, if it exists)

[06:36:00.0000] <annevk>
k

[06:37:00.0000] <annevk>
your testcases are quite nice btw

[06:38:00.0000] <annevk>
for getImageData(), do you take into account that height/width doesn't necessarily reflect the height/width of the canvas?

[06:45:00.0000] <Philip`>
I don't - in most cases it shouldn't matter because I'm only testing a single pixel at a time and ignoring everything but the first four array elements (so it'll work as long as getImageData doesn't return zero pixel)

[06:46:00.0000] <Philip`>
In a couple of cases it does matter because I'm comparing the whole image to the expected one, but I expect that's very fragile anyway (since it depends on the antialiasing and whatever) so I should probably stop doing that

[06:47:00.0000] <Philip`>
*zero pixels

[07:13:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, the <source> IDL interface is wrong

[08:22:00.0000] <zcorpan>
ponder. perhaps stating that rel=nofollow is used on all links (on the register page) will prevent the manual spam too.

[08:23:00.0000] <zcorpan>
(on the forum)

[08:33:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hmm, I used to have a spam problem (averaging several spam posts per day for a month or so) on a forum (several years old, ~1600 members, running IPB), but solved it entirely by adding a "I am a human, not a spam-bot" checkbox on the registration page and have had no problems since then

[08:33:01.0000] <Philip`>
so I've always assumed that manual spam is uneconomical and not a problem; but maybe I'm just lucky to have avoided being hit by it

[08:34:00.0000] <annevk>
it's a problem

[08:35:00.0000] <annevk>
recently some people managed to get passed by well-formedness required + forced preview check

[08:35:01.0000] <annevk>
(I also require at least one block level element for comments)

[08:36:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: apparently, low-skilled English-literate labor is available at a very low cost, so implementing an MTurk-like arrangement for manual spamming seems to be feasible :-(

[08:38:00.0000] <Lachy>
luckily, for now at least, manual spamming isn't quite as bad a spam bots cause bots are able to send a significant amount more than manual

[08:38:01.0000] <annevk>
/me isn't sure that DOMContentLoaded solves issues

[08:38:02.0000] <annevk>
/me notes http://www.w3.org/2006/webapi/track/issues/36

[08:39:00.0000] <Lachy>
DOMContentLoaded is roughly equivalent to <script defer>

[08:39:01.0000] <annevk>
do all scripts need to be loaded first?

[08:39:02.0000] <annevk>
how would that work?

[08:40:00.0000] <Lachy>
all scripts get loaded and executed during parsing anyway

[08:40:01.0000] <annevk>
ah right

[08:40:02.0000] <annevk>
but still

[08:40:03.0000] <annevk>
so maybe the moment document.close() is invoked

[08:40:04.0000] <annevk>
btw, for XHTML that may not be the case

[08:41:00.0000] <Lachy>
I wonder if DOMContentLoaded fires immediately after the root element closes, or whether it waits till all content afterwards (like comments are whitespace) are parsed too

[08:41:01.0000] <Lachy>
s/are/and/

[08:42:00.0000] <annevk>
for HTML it has to wait

[08:42:01.0000] <Lachy>
yeah

[08:42:02.0000] <Lachy>
for XHTML?

[08:42:03.0000] <Lachy>
I suppose, since commetns are added to teh DOM, it would have to wait too

[08:42:04.0000] <annevk>
dunno, the script containing the listener might not even be loaded...

[08:42:05.0000] <Lachy>
why wouldn't it be loaded?

[08:43:00.0000] <annevk>
why would parsing XML be delayed by script loading?

[08:43:01.0000] <Lachy>
hmm. I don't know, I guess since document.write() can't work, scripts can be loaded async

[08:44:00.0000] <annevk>
in XHTML you also have <svg:script> and <xbl:script> etc.

[08:44:01.0000] <annevk>
which makes this more painful as at least SVG defines a different processing model iirc

[08:45:00.0000] <Lachy>
I assume <xbl:script> has a sensible processing model

[08:45:01.0000] <Lachy>
but I suppose svg is still a potential problem

[08:48:00.0000] <annevk>
SVG is a problem nonetheless :)

[08:53:00.0000] <annevk>
http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/PermaLink.aspx?guid=d03d5ef0-3453-4458-8c13-c1c94c0dff1b

[08:58:00.0000] <hsivonen>
GUIDs make URIs uncool

[08:59:00.0000] <annevk>
no shit

[08:59:01.0000] <Lachy>
hsivonen, yeah. using the milliseconds since 1970-01-01 is much more sensible! :-)

[09:00:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: I've wondered about the rationale behind that design decision. :-)

[09:01:00.0000] <Lachy>
yeah, me too.  you'll have to ask Hixie

[09:02:00.0000] <Lachy>
can someone test if http://lachy.id.au/ is responding?  I can't get it to load

[09:05:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: works for me

[09:05:01.0000] <Lachy>
yeah, it's come back up for me now too

[09:06:00.0000] <Lachy>
thanks

[09:14:00.0000] <virtuelv>
re http://lachy.id.au/log/2007/03/problems-with-xhtml - hehe

[09:15:00.0000] <Lachy>
there was a followup post too! http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JanMar/0053.html

[09:19:00.0000] <h3h>
wow

[09:19:01.0000] <tylerr>
/me needs to delegate some tasks so he has time to work on WHATWG articles.

[09:19:02.0000] <Lachy>
what kind of tasks?

[09:21:00.0000] <tylerr>
Page builds, bug fixes, link scanning, etc.

[09:21:01.0000] <tylerr>
All in a tool that doesn't have S&R. :-(

[09:22:00.0000] <Lachy>
oh, you mean tasks at your work.  I thought you meant getting somewhere here to help you out

[09:22:01.0000] <tylerr>
Oh hehe, well, that will come in time. :-)

[09:22:02.0000] <Lachy>
ok boss!

[09:22:03.0000] <tylerr>
I need to plough through all my *real* work first.

[09:23:00.0000] <tylerr>
Maybe that should be "real". ;-)

[12:00:00.0000] <annevk2>
http://blog.outer-court.com/archive/2007-03-29-n69.html

[12:02:00.0000] <annevk2>
not very interesting though, except that he doesn't really seem to grasp it

[12:02:01.0000] <annevk2>
"we need better marketing"

[12:46:00.0000] <gsnedders>
annevk: what was that blog you commented on a couple days ago about HTML5, referencing the about page? ever get a reply?

[14:34:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I hate arguing with X People

[14:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
where are you arguing with XPeople?

[14:47:00.0000] <met_>
/me thinks it probably isn't on http://www.xpeople.org/

[14:48:00.0000] <othermaciej>
public-html

[14:48:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't even want to read all the emails about how great hidden metadata is

[14:48:02.0000] <othermaciej>
especially the long rambling one that is all lowercase except instances of html tag names

[14:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[14:49:01.0000] <Hixie>
afk

[14:51:00.0000] <gsnedders>
so we can then normalise them in our heads to lowercase? :P

[14:51:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Has there been a good explanation that visible metadata usually = correct and updated metadata yet?

[14:53:00.0000] <othermaciej>
there have been explanations

[14:53:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't know if they would count as good

[15:01:00.0000] <Lachy>
good morning

[15:12:00.0000] <othermaciej>
hey KevinMarks 

[15:14:00.0000] <othermaciej>
KevinMarks: check out the "Visible Metadata" threads here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007JanMar/thread.html

[15:27:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
oh boy

[15:28:00.0000] <KevinMarks>
I'm in Quinn's talk about embedding magnets in her body right now

[15:28:01.0000] <othermaciej>
!


2007-03-30
[03:06:00.0000] <annevk>
gsnedders, he did reply

[03:07:00.0000] <annevk>
gsnedders, http://doyouwanttodie.com/2007/03/27/more-changes/ is the link

[04:43:00.0000] <zcorpan__>
on tuesday i'm going to a job interview at opera for a summer job. hopefully i can work on a test suite for html5 then

[04:44:00.0000] <hasather>
zcorpan__: in Sweden?

[04:44:01.0000] <zcorpan__>
hasather: yes

[04:44:02.0000] <hasather>
cool, good luck

[04:44:03.0000] <zcorpan__>
thanks

[04:45:00.0000] <annevk>
and XMLHttpRequest!

[04:45:01.0000] <zcorpan__>
that also

[04:45:02.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan__: cool. and good luck. in Gothenburg?

[04:46:00.0000] <annevk>
Linkoping

[04:46:01.0000] <zcorpan__>
hsivonen: Linköping

[04:46:02.0000] <hsivonen>
oh. I didn't know Opera had offices there

[04:47:00.0000] <hasather>
also hoping to get a job at Opera this summer

[04:47:01.0000] <annevk>
Directly stealing all the smart students from university :)

[04:47:02.0000] <zcorpan__>
:)

[04:47:03.0000] <annevk>
At least, iirc there's a university in Linkoping

[04:47:04.0000] <zcorpan__>
i'm sure there is

[04:48:00.0000] <zcorpan__>
http://www.liu.se/

[04:49:00.0000] <hsivonen>
(Linkoping sure looks weird without the ö)

[04:49:01.0000] <zcorpan__>
/me agrees

[04:51:00.0000] <hsivonen>
curiously, the University of Aarhus has kept the ASCII-safe old spelling even though the city is now Århus

[04:52:00.0000] <annevk>
What would be better? Linkoeping?

[04:52:01.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: please, no

[04:52:02.0000] <zcorpan__>
oe is german

[04:52:03.0000] <zcorpan__>
the ascii version of ö in swedish is o

[04:53:00.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen :)

[04:53:01.0000] <annevk>
fair enough

[04:54:00.0000] <Lachy>
good luck zcorpan__!

[04:54:01.0000] <zcorpan__>
Lachy: thanks

[04:56:00.0000] <zcorpan__>
although Koenigsegg doesn't follow the convention, even though it is a swedish car manufacturer (pronounced like "königsegg" in swedish but the official name is still Koenigsegg also in sweden)

[04:57:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan__: probably a German surname?

[04:57:01.0000] <zcorpan__>
ah. probably because the name came from a german statelet

[04:57:02.0000] <zcorpan__>
yeah

[04:58:00.0000] <zcorpan__>
or rather the surname of the founder

[12:35:00.0000] <johnbend2>
/me greets

[12:40:00.0000] <tylerr>
Hi johnbend2.

[12:49:00.0000] <johnbend2>
hello tylerr

[12:50:00.0000] <johnbend2>
i just bumped into the whatwg website and saw alink to this channel. so i decided to pay a visit

[12:56:00.0000] <tylerr>
Ah lovely! Good to have you!

[12:56:01.0000] <johnbend2>
thanx

[13:00:00.0000] <johnbend2>
i have been doing a lot of research into how i can apply the concept of web applications to my business. i have been through most of the tutorials at w3, yet i am still don't have a solid grasp of the concepts as it applies to business. i was hoping someone could give me some directions

[13:01:00.0000] <h3h>
[obvious question]

[13:02:00.0000] <h3h>
(what's your business?)

[13:03:00.0000] <johnbend2>
i am into agricultural exportation

[13:05:00.0000] <johnbend2>
i want a system that's web based

[13:06:00.0000] <johnbend2>
where my employees and customers access the company's databases over the web

[13:07:00.0000] <johnbend2>
using only browsers

[13:08:00.0000] <johnbend2>
i feel it's the future and i want to be ready for it

[13:11:00.0000] <tylerr>
Sure. Have you looked into development frameworks?

[13:12:00.0000] <tylerr>
Such as Django/Ruby on Rails/PHP?

[13:12:01.0000] <tylerr>
Or are you looking for an enterprise solution?

[13:12:02.0000] <johnbend2>
where can i get a good guide on those?

[13:13:00.0000] <tylerr>
johnbend2: Do you mind if I PM you?

[13:13:01.0000] <johnbend2>
ok

[13:14:00.0000] <tylerr>
PM sent.

[13:40:00.0000] <tylerr>
Hmm...

[13:40:01.0000] <tylerr>
I was going to help that chap out.

[14:16:00.0000] <zcorpan>
in rtl languages, are table header cells on the right hand side instead of on the left?

[14:18:00.0000] <zcorpan>
oh, they are already rendered reversed with dir=rtl. nm

[15:24:00.0000] <johnbendi>
hello room

[15:25:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hello johnbendi

[15:25:01.0000] <johnbendi>
how are you, zcorpan?

[15:26:00.0000] <zcorpan>
i'm fine, thanks

[15:26:01.0000] <zcorpan>
i'm reviewing the xmlhttprequest spec today

[15:26:02.0000] <tylerr>
Hi johnbendi.

[15:26:03.0000] <tylerr>
Welcome back.

[15:26:04.0000] <tylerr>
You disappeared on me. :-)

[15:26:05.0000] <johnbendi>
no, i told you i'll be back

[15:27:00.0000] <tylerr>
Oh? Hah, I suppose I disappeared before I saw that, and my client crashed on me.

[15:27:01.0000] <tylerr>
I went to lunch. :-)

[15:27:02.0000] <johnbendi>
i hope you enjoyed it

[15:28:00.0000] <tylerr>
It was... interesting. They got my order wrong and I ended up with a hot dog covered with macaroni instead of a cup of macaroni with hot dog slices in it.

[15:29:00.0000] <johnbendi>
it happens

[15:30:00.0000] <tylerr>
Anyway johnbendi, I was curious to know if you were looking for an enterprise solution, something like an extranet for your company.

[15:31:00.0000] <johnbendi>
an extranet sounds like a good idea

[15:31:01.0000] <tylerr>
Let me send you another PM. :-)

[15:32:00.0000] <johnbendi>
ok

[15:36:00.0000] <bewest>
johnbendi: use atom publishing protocol :-)

[15:36:01.0000] <bewest>
solves 80% of what you mentioned

[15:37:00.0000] <tylerr>
johnbendi: Did you receive my PMs?

[15:37:01.0000] <bewest>
and since it's a standardized opaque interface, you can change implementations when the need arises

[15:37:02.0000] <johnbendi>
yes

[15:37:03.0000] <johnbendi>
i replied

[15:38:00.0000] <tylerr>
Interesting.

[15:38:01.0000] <tylerr>
I saw nothing, and still see nothing.

[15:38:02.0000] <tylerr>
That would explain why I didn't see you saying you were going to leave for a bit earlier.

[15:38:03.0000] <johnbendi>
ok i will try and close the window and pm you

[15:38:04.0000] <tylerr>
You're registered with the server correct?

[15:39:00.0000] <tylerr>
Ah good good.

[15:39:01.0000] <tylerr>
Let's try that.

[15:39:02.0000] <johnbendi>
did you get the pm

[15:39:03.0000] <tylerr>
That I did not.

[15:39:04.0000] <johnbendi>
but i see yours

[15:39:05.0000] <tylerr>
Hmm

[15:40:00.0000] <tylerr>
One moment.

[15:40:01.0000] <tylerr>
Okay, can you please try again?

[15:41:00.0000] <johnbendi>
bewest: sounds interesting

[15:42:00.0000] <johnbendi>
tylerr: are you working on it

[15:42:01.0000] <bewest>
johnbendi: yes, it's good technology

[15:42:02.0000] <johnbendi>
i will definitely check it out

[15:42:03.0000] <johnbendi>
any web links

[15:42:04.0000] <tylerr>
johnbendi: For some reason I cannot get your PMs

[15:42:05.0000] <tylerr>
Let me try something.

[15:42:06.0000] <johnbendi>
ok

[15:43:00.0000] <tylerr>
Okay, try joining #thegoods

[15:43:01.0000] <johnbendi>
on freenode?

[15:43:02.0000] <tylerr>
YEs

[15:43:03.0000] <tylerr>
*yes

[15:43:04.0000] <bewest>
johnbendi: well, the technology is a standard for a protocol for exchanging and organizing information on the web... so I think what you are probably interested in is probably an implementation of atom publishing protocol

[15:44:00.0000] <bewest>
johnbendi: while I have yet to use this myself in a production project, I'd suggest looking at http://trac.defuze.org/wiki/amplee

[15:45:00.0000] <johnbendi>
thanx so much

[15:46:00.0000] <bewest>
no problem

[16:44:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: Apple's media folks pointed out a lot of stuff in the WHATWG <video> draft where probably you are just not done merging from our proposal yet

[16:44:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: should I tell them to send their comments anyway or ask them to wait?

[16:45:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: I think justifications for some of our design might be useful even if you haven't considered the point yet

[16:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
feel free to send but yeah i'm nowhere near done mergeing

[16:48:01.0000] <Hixie>
merging


2007-03-31
[17:10:00.0000] <othermaciej>
they also asked to meet in person with you (perhaps also including YouTube/Google Video people if you thought that was useful)

[17:10:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I would guess mainly they are impatient but talking in person may make them feel more encouraged, or help them understand what things they should write up in more detail

[17:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
sure

[17:12:01.0000] <Hixie>
we can meet at google or at apple, if someone can give me a lift there

[17:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'm happy to encourage them, but with the csswg meeting and other things at work i've been unable to really make progress

[17:13:01.0000] <Hixie>
and more meetings aren't likely to help that :-)

[17:14:00.0000] <othermaciej>
ok, I'll try to arrange something

[17:14:01.0000] <othermaciej>
hopefully we can keep it to a reasonable amount of time

[17:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
doing it over lunch is probably the most effective use of our time, but looks like i'm open much of next week so whenever works

[17:20:00.0000] <othermaciej>
that might be good incentive for them to travel to Free Food Land

[23:34:00.0000] <zcorpan>
LOL: "well hurrah! let's all have a collective circle w*nk over at the html 5 forum then... :roll:" -- http://www.accessifyforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7776#51321

[23:35:00.0000] <Hixie>
saw that

[23:35:01.0000] <Hixie>
wasn't sure what it meant

[23:37:00.0000] <zcorpan>
dunno either

[23:46:00.0000] <zcorpan>
html mail workshop, eh?

[23:46:01.0000] <zcorpan>
/me reads what that is about

[23:48:00.0000] <Lachy>
zcorpan, what's that about html mail? link?

[23:49:00.0000] <zcorpan>
http://www.w3.org/2007/05/html-mail/

[23:51:00.0000] <Lachy>
/me wants HTML e-mail abolished, but unfortunately, it's here to stay :-(

[23:52:00.0000] <zcorpan>
why would anyone want to have JavaScript enabled in email?

[23:54:00.0000] <Lachy>
I don't know, it's a huge security risk

[23:55:00.0000] <Lachy>
just like loading external images is too

[00:31:00.0000] <met_>
Stange, my colleague David Majda just wrote Czech article about WHATWG and what brings WF2 http://www.lupa.cz/clanky/whatwg-budoucnost-webu/ There is a poll "Will you appreciate new properties which is WHATWG prepairing?" Answers are ~70% yes. Any other Czech poll about "Do you like XHTML 2.0 or HTML5?" gives every times ~80% for XHTML2.0

[00:32:00.0000] <met_>
maybe one  point for marketing 8-)

[00:53:00.0000] <othermaciej>
javascript in mail?

[00:53:01.0000] <othermaciej>
ewww

[01:09:00.0000] <Lachy>
met_, my hypothesis for why people like XHTML2 over HTML5 is because there is the perception that XHTML is the future, and that the W3C is the source of all web standards and not some rogue group outside of it

[01:10:00.0000] <Lachy>
also, when people are asked about the future of the web, many fail to consider the past or instantly write it off as irrelevant

[01:11:00.0000] <zcorpan>
because in the future, all implementations will be perfect and there will be no tag soup on the web

[01:11:01.0000] <Lachy>
exactly!

[01:11:02.0000] <met_>
I also feel that many have XHTML2.0 as and idol although thay do not know it

[01:11:03.0000] <met_>
/me is afk

[01:12:00.0000] <zcorpan>
and you can use your light-weight xml parser on your mobile

[01:12:01.0000] <Lachy>
most people who like XHTML2 have never actually read the spec.  They just know it by name and perhaps know of some of the features like href/src/etc. on every element

[01:25:00.0000] <Lachy>
I suppose one good thing that could come out of the work on HTML email getting interoperability between mail clients, both on the desktop and web based

[01:26:00.0000] <Lachy>
and scoped stylesheets will actually really help the web based clients

[11:16:00.0000] <webby|macbook>
!help register

[11:17:00.0000] <webby|macbook>
hey there

[11:18:00.0000] <webby|macbook>
anybody online? 

[11:22:00.0000] <met_>
what you need?

[11:23:00.0000] <webby|macbook>
just saying hello and trying to get into html5

[11:23:01.0000] <webby|macbook>
http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6330927813/m/501005914831

[11:23:02.0000] <webby|macbook>
(into the html5 community, I mean)

[11:26:00.0000] <met_>
many just are still sleeping probably

[11:26:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Or taking the weekend off :)

[11:27:00.0000] <webby|macbook>
I'm in a different time zone then most probably

[11:27:01.0000] <webby|macbook>
(Israel, :) )

[11:32:00.0000] <webby|macbook>
so what do you guys have established as far as the chicken/egg problem is concerned?

[11:32:01.0000] <Philip`>
"The W3C says that they won't touch it anymore. "XHTML is the future"." - they seem to be changing their minds now - see http://www.w3.org/html/wg/

[11:35:00.0000] <met_>
webby|macbook, look at the http://www.whatwg.org/ and the spec

[11:35:01.0000] <hsivonen>
what's the chicken/egg problem in this case?

[11:35:02.0000] <webby|macbook>
http://waffle.wootest.net/2007/03/24/now-in-glorious-html5/

[11:36:00.0000] <webby|macbook>
you decide to switch to html5, fine and dandy. obviously you won't get far today, even if it's adapted as a standard by the W3C you need browser support.

[11:36:01.0000] <webby|macbook>
based on past history, it would probably take a loooong time

[11:37:00.0000] <webby|macbook>
"I can't write a page in html5, browsers don't support it" "we can't support html5 in our browser, nobody is using it.. not worth it"

[11:37:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Well, the browsers are a big part of whatwg 

[11:37:02.0000] <hsivonen>
webby|macbook: well, there's buy-in from 3 of the top 4 browser vendors

[11:38:00.0000] <webby|macbook>
exactly where I'm getting to

[11:38:01.0000] <webby|macbook>
Microsoft isn't 

[11:38:02.0000] <hsivonen>
webby|macbook: it isn't unreasonable to expect them to actually implement this stuff

[11:38:03.0000] <webby|macbook>
"in" is it?

[11:38:04.0000] <hsivonen>
webby|macbook: that's what the new HTML WG is for

[11:38:05.0000] <webby|macbook>
to convince microsoft to support this?

[11:38:06.0000] <met_>
webby|macbook, browsesr support some parts already http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_%28WHATWG%29

[11:39:00.0000] <webby|macbook>
even if they jump in at one point, probably what's going to happen is that all the other browsers will pick it up much quicker and more fully

[11:39:01.0000] <hsivonen>
webby|macbook: to make it so that Microsoft's lawyers let the IE team speak with us

[11:39:02.0000] <met_>
webby|macbook, to make emulation for 100% suppor in IE some is already http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Implementations_in_Web_browsers

[11:40:00.0000] <webby|macbook>
and what about past versions of IE?

[11:40:01.0000] <webby|macbook>
I realize html5 is backwards compatible in some places

[11:40:02.0000] <webby|macbook>
but the new features arn't, if somebody was to make an application in the future that fully takes advantage of the spec and works well in other browsers..

[11:40:03.0000] <webby|macbook>
what would happen when the page is rendered in IE6/7?

[11:41:00.0000] <webby|macbook>
I guess my big idea here is so sort of escape trick to hide it from IE. kind of what was done with CSS. import and what not..

[11:41:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Depends on how you make the application

[11:41:02.0000] <met_>
one of the emulation project for IE http://sourceforge.net/projects/wf2/

[11:44:00.0000] <webby|macbook>
cool met_ :)

[11:44:01.0000] <Philip`>
webby: The new features are already designed so they'll fall back to sensible/acceptable behaviour in older browsers, without needing special IE-only hacks

[11:45:00.0000] <webby|macbook>
can you elaborate or point me in the right direction? I'm not sure how/what IE would do when it see's a new tag for example

[11:46:00.0000] <annevk>
<input type=number> falls back to <input type=text> for instance

[11:47:00.0000] <Philip`>
I'm not sure what pointers are good [and I have to go now], but http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Ccanvas%3EFallback%20content%3C/canvas%3E (loaded in IE) demonstrates the kind of thing that happens

[12:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
webby|macbook: actually the new features are all designed to have graceful fallback, so they are effectively compatible