2007-11-01 [17:00:00.0000] they didn't check robots.txt, either [17:01:00.0000] Hixie: clearly, a big tic tac toe fan [17:01:01.0000] I mean, I don't read robots.txt everytime before I read a site [17:02:00.0000] gsnedders: you need the "Grab robots.txt" Firefox extension [17:02:01.0000] /me doesn't use Fx [17:03:00.0000] gsnedders: it has an option to show whether the current page is robot-excluded in the status bar [17:03:01.0000] gsnedders: no, but presumably one would do so before crawling the entire site [17:03:02.0000] (just kidding, i made that up) [17:03:03.0000] jruderman: knowing how useless some extensions are, that's believable :) [17:04:00.0000] Hixie: maybe I would. depends how busy I am. [17:04:01.0000] gsnedders: i'd hope your software would, at least :-) [17:04:02.0000] lol at "The clouds of tagging" [17:04:03.0000] Hixie: oh, I was talking about doing it all manually [17:05:00.0000] roy needs to making posse badges. [17:05:01.0000] gsnedders: this was clearly an automatic thing [17:05:02.0000] If you're writing some automated web-page-downloader that only downloads one page per site, should you still respect robots.txt (given that fetching it would double the number of requests)? [17:05:03.0000] Hixie: well, from the size of your site, that's obvious. I was hardly serious [17:05:04.0000] (I mean, when was I ever serious?) [17:05:05.0000] gsnedders: :-) [17:05:06.0000] /me tacklehugs Hixie [17:06:00.0000] /me steps out of the way of the tackle [17:06:01.0000] Philip`: probably not [17:06:02.0000] http://www.google.com/search?q=mordorsoft "Did you mean: microsoft" [17:06:03.0000] google++ [17:06:04.0000] Hixie: and the hugs? [17:06:05.0000] gsnedders: dunno, i don't know you :-) [17:07:00.0000] /me adds to list of things to do when he first meets Hixie [17:07:01.0000] -_- [17:07:02.0000] :D [17:07:03.0000] (not that there is actually a list with anything on it, but…) [17:09:00.0000] rm list-of-things-to-do-when-I-meet-hixie [17:09:01.0000] and on that rm, g'nite [17:10:00.0000] nn [17:14:00.0000] Hmm. Sleep would be a good idea I guess [17:23:00.0000] robots.txt is useful for certain things but not all unfortunately. [17:23:01.0000] I think it is useful to say, I want this indexed. [17:24:00.0000] but very poor for blocking access. [17:25:00.0000] For some bots, I have been using .htaccess instead of robots.txt [17:25:01.0000] things like this in the .htaccess [17:25:02.0000] SetEnvIfNoCase User-Agent "Technoratibot" bad_bot [17:25:03.0000] SetEnvIfNoCase User-Agent "Technorati Feed Engine" bad_bot [17:25:04.0000] SetEnvIfNoCase User-Agent "Microsoft Office" bad_bot [17:25:05.0000] Order Allow,Deny [17:25:06.0000] Allow from all [17:25:07.0000] Deny from env=bad_bot [17:27:00.0000] hm, dave raises an interesting point about auto-pausing cue ranges [17:27:01.0000] since seeking affects them now, it's hard to know when to fire the autopause [17:50:00.0000] Hixie: okay okay [17:50:01.0000] heh [17:50:02.0000] Hixie: you've beat me over the head with "not important enough for v1" [17:50:03.0000] :-) [17:50:04.0000] Hixie: enough times... that I'll let it go :) [17:50:05.0000] i'm mostly chanelling aaron on this i think [17:53:00.0000] Hixie: okay okay =D [19:47:00.0000] Hixie: "mouseydown"? [19:47:01.0000] on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-contenteditable.html [19:47:02.0000] is that a typo? [19:54:00.0000] /me snickers [19:59:00.0000] heh [20:00:00.0000] fixed. [20:00:01.0000] (good catch.) [20:02:00.0000] Hixie: "The in-memory representation is known as 'DOM5 HTML'" -- i think that's confusing and it should be "HTML5 DOM" instead [20:02:01.0000] Hixie: i often say "DOM 2 Core" to mean "DOM Level 2 Core", but "DOM5 HTML" does not mean "DOM Level 5 HTML" [20:03:00.0000] Hixie: it's not just me; see http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/DOM_Levels for example [20:04:00.0000] I find DOM5 HTML confusing too [20:04:01.0000] HTML5 DOM makes more sense [20:04:02.0000] just as there is an SVG1.2 DOM, not DOM1.2 SVG [20:05:00.0000] 'Comments that contain the string "-->" can be represented in "DOM5 HTML" but not in "HTML5" and "XHTML5".' mmm, non-serializable doms [20:05:01.0000] well [20:05:02.0000] they can be serialized as scripts to generate them [20:05:03.0000] (i have a script that does that) [20:09:00.0000] it even has a text/html mode that whines about some non-serializable things, such as BR elements with children [20:09:01.0000] but it doesn't complain about adjacent text nodes [20:31:00.0000] what does "This specification is independent of the various proprietary UI languages that various vendors provide." mean? [20:31:01.0000] http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#relationship1 [20:35:00.0000] I think it's supposed to be some sort of odd aspersion on XUL and XAML and the like [20:39:00.0000] the sentence after it, sure [20:39:01.0000] but i don't understand the sentence i pasted [20:50:00.0000] jruderman: btw please send feedback to one of the lists (or me directly); with few exceptions, i don't track feedback sent on irc [20:50:01.0000] you should track feedback sent on irc ;) [20:50:02.0000] maybe [20:50:03.0000] but i don't :-) [20:51:00.0000] re "DOM5 HTML", i just took the previous name -- DOM2 HTML, with its earlier DOM1 HTML -- and incremented the number to 5. [20:54:00.0000] yeah but those were part of the DOM, not part of HTML, as would be the current practice [21:06:00.0000] othermaciej: *shrug* [21:07:00.0000] same language, new version... [21:07:01.0000] it's hardly the world's most important issue [21:10:00.0000] true [00:11:00.0000] hsivonen: is there a version of the conformance checker which would be of a reasonable size, and able to run w/o a server component, to include with a text editor? [00:26:00.0000] hsivonen: incidentally, it doesn't seem to like "irc://…" hrefs in a elements. is that proper behavior? [00:56:00.0000] jacobolus: well, there's no specification for the IRC scheme, which makes any occurrence non-conforming [00:57:00.0000] hmm. but it's quite useful to put in different schemes in hyperlinks of html documents :) [01:05:00.0000] jacobolus: from a purely conformance POV, nothing that isn't registered should be used :) [01:24:00.0000] jacobolus: there is currently only a server version. [01:24:01.0000] jacobolus: the current way to integrate with a text editor is to run the HTTP server on localhost and to use the Web service API locally as an interprocess communication protocol [02:45:00.0000] is the semicolon at the end of a sql statement part of the sql statement? [02:47:00.0000] Most SQL APIs only accept a single statement-like-thing with no semicolon, so I assume the actual statement doesn't include a semicolon (and it's handled by command-line UIs instead), but that's not very helpful if you want to be precise about what SQL calls a statement [02:48:00.0000] what i really want to know is what are people going to implement? [02:49:00.0000] I thought the semicolon was required [02:51:00.0000] http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/c-api-multiple-queries.html talks about statements "separated" by semicolons (though only when you turn on an appropriate flag), so they're separators rather than terminators in that kind of API [02:52:00.0000] http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/mysql-stmt-prepare.html - "You should not add a terminating semicolon (“;”) or \g to the statement." [02:53:00.0000] yeah but sqlite seems to do it differently [02:57:00.0000] sqlite3_complete is the only thing that the documentation says cares about semicolons, and that's just designed for command-line input - I'm fairly sure the rest of the API doesn't need semicolons (unless that's being hidden by all the language bindings I've used) [02:59:00.0000] (I vaguely think different systems differ in whether a trailing semicolon is ignored or a syntax error, but can't really remember) [03:00:00.0000] need is one thing; i'm worried about allow [03:01:00.0000]

is gonna be a pain [03:01:01.0000] i really don't want

test

to be conforming (or

) [03:02:00.0000] but people are having issues with my suggestion of instead of (where ... = ... ) [03:05:00.0000] /me no longer thinks about block vs inline when writing HTML because it's just a waste of time and makes no practical difference, and would like it if conformance checkers didn't complain about that, but maybe that's just laziness :-) [03:15:00.0000] i think it makes a difference, but i conveniently have to sleep now and can't defend my position. :-) [03:15:01.0000] nn [07:42:00.0000] Good morning! ;-) [07:51:00.0000] I have an HTML5 feature request. Where do I have to go to so that this is discussed and maybe considered? [07:55:00.0000] rene32: http://www.whatwg.org/mailing-list#specs should be a good place to send ideas [07:56:00.0000] Hmm, I don't like mailinglists. Isn't there a place where I can just drop the idea and then leave? :-) [07:57:00.0000] rene32: well, if you don't take the trouble of subscribing to a list and sending your use cases there, you could state them here and risk them getting forgotten [07:57:01.0000] There's http://forums.whatwg.org/ too [07:58:00.0000] hsivonen: Sounds good :-D [07:58:01.0000] Maybe I subscribe, discuss the idea and unsubscribe again. [08:02:00.0000] In case someone is interested in the idea: I'd like to see a parameter "ellipsis" that tells the browser to replace some text by "..." in case the space to render all text is not sufficient. I think I'll write an email about it to the list. [08:04:00.0000] Doesn't CSS3 do that already? [08:04:01.0000] rene32: I can tell you right away that there's almost zero chance of that making it into HTML5 [08:04:02.0000] rene32: you might have better luck with CSS [08:05:00.0000] rene32: I wouldn't be too surprised if CSS overflow was already extended like this [08:05:01.0000] Wrong place? [08:05:02.0000] text-overflow: ellipsis [08:05:03.0000] So I have the right ideas but post them in the wrong places and too late.... tough luck :-D [08:06:00.0000] Opera has some support for it, but it's a pain to use [08:06:01.0000] Don't know about other browsers [08:06:02.0000] is that CSS3? [08:07:00.0000] it's probably end ellipsis only (opposed to centre ellipsis) [08:07:01.0000] Yes [08:08:00.0000] 9.5 has it implemented already? [08:08:01.0000] It used to be in css3-text, but was removed. It's also listed on msdn [08:09:00.0000] What does it mean "it's listed on msdn"? [08:09:01.0000] Meaning IE supports it somehow, but I don't know the details myself [08:09:02.0000] That's the documentation network for Microsoft Programmers: msdn.microsoft.com [08:10:00.0000] I know. But I did not know what it means when something is listed there. I know what it means if something is listed on eBay though ;-) [08:10:01.0000] :) [08:33:00.0000] hey, does anyone know what the country code is for calling the USA? [08:34:00.0000] oh, it's +1. How simple :-) [08:35:00.0000] /me wonders who chose that numbering system [08:36:00.0000] From the USA to my country: 0011 [08:36:01.0000] I don't know why. [14:20:00.0000] Hi, I'm curious to know what the development status of PH5P is [14:29:00.0000] I submitted a patch to Jero a few month backs that corrected some minor implementation bugs, but the public code doesn't seem to have been updated [14:39:00.0000] t [14:39:01.0000] . [14:43:00.0000] ezyang: do you know who's doing it? [14:46:00.0000] As in wrote the program? [14:46:01.0000] yeah [14:46:02.0000] hm, i expect the latest mail to public-xhtml2 will make things interesting [14:46:03.0000] I'm under the impression that it's the work of Jeroen van der Meer, since it's on his website [14:46:04.0000] I'm probably misunderstanding something [14:47:00.0000] no, i was just curious [14:47:01.0000] i don't think Jeroen is here, though [14:47:02.0000] Yeah [14:47:03.0000] he would be the one who would know how he was doing [14:48:00.0000] :-) [14:48:01.0000] I was trawling the IRC logs, though, and he's popped in here once or twice before, so I was wondering if any of you guys knew :-) [14:49:00.0000] thanks though [14:49:01.0000] public-xhtml2? [14:51:00.0000] Hixie: what email? link? [14:53:00.0000] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Nov/0001.html , presumably [14:55:00.0000] yeah [15:21:00.0000] wtf is with this lack of e-mail [15:22:00.0000] i've gotten almost no e-mail recently [15:22:01.0000] Hixie: you want me to send you some? :) [15:22:02.0000] not so much [15:22:03.0000] i'm just curious as to why i haven't gotten any [15:22:04.0000] i suppose it could be because people are travelling to the plenary [15:23:00.0000] already? wow. [15:24:00.0000] if i wasn't in the US already, i'd be leaving tomorrow morning [15:24:01.0000] or even tonight [15:24:02.0000] gotta acclimate [15:27:00.0000] meh. I can't really remember much about going to the US when I last went (around 10 years ago, when I was five) [15:27:01.0000] I can remember being amazed at arriving in CA at the same time as I left home [15:30:00.0000] hopefully I'll be able to go next year to France [15:54:00.0000] /me hopes he won't get too jetlagged on the way out [15:54:01.0000] going west isn't too bad [15:55:00.0000] Hixie: So I'd been led to believe, but I went to Japan and was fine on the way there and really bad on the way back [15:55:01.0000] heh 2007-11-02 [17:17:00.0000] wow, lots of e-mails asking for href="" on all elements [17:17:01.0000] pity that would be nigh-on-impossible to implement [17:18:00.0000] if it wasn't for these pesky implementations, xhtml2 would have been on to something [17:48:00.0000] /me replies to 47 e-mails with what amounts to a one-word answer, "no". [17:54:00.0000] i feel bad [17:55:00.0000] i think i've now said no to about half a dozen suggestions by this Eugene T. S. Wong person. [17:55:01.0000] it really is nothing personal... it's just that in each case, the arguments against were stronger than the arguments in favour. :-( [18:02:00.0000] yay, i broke the 3500 barrier! [18:03:00.0000] down to 3482 issues [01:14:00.0000] Hixie, re: nigh-on-impossible to implement href="" on all elements, it's actually not that bad. if you think of "hyperlinkness" as just a behavior that anything can have, it's quite trivial. As if you could just wrap an element (assuming proper inline/block embedding etc.) around the element being hyperlinked. [13:32:00.0000] gsnedders: eh, we published the html5 draft on the whatwg site, what more can we ask for :-) [13:33:00.0000] Hixie: "Best/You've got to be the best/You've got to change the world/And you use this chance to be heard/Your time is now" [13:47:00.0000] Hixie: rewrite the spec from scratch. kthxbai. [13:47:01.0000] heh [13:47:02.0000] already done! [13:50:00.0000] — what isn't in RFC 2616 (unbelievably, and I have my doubts about whether such a thing will get into the bis) [13:52:00.0000] we can hope [13:53:00.0000] I now need to add a section on comparing quoted strings, which calls that algorithm… [13:53:01.0000] /me sighs [13:54:00.0000] (oh, we're doing algorithms in computing at school now — vitally important for me, obviously) [13:54:01.0000] i never did algorithms. missed out on a bunch of stuff that i really should have learnt. [13:55:00.0000] big O() notation, sort algorithms, etc [13:56:00.0000] oh, I mean the _really_ simplistic algorithms like in both of our specs [13:56:01.0000] (well, arguably, they aren't that simple in parts, but compared with some stuff, they are) [14:04:00.0000] and then we get to implement the algorithms… in BASIC. 2007-11-03 [17:29:00.0000] i'm having connection issues, so i'm gonna go home and will be back online later to continue replying to all this mail [01:22:00.0000] hmm [01:22:01.0000] how about a rel value that disables sending of referer headers for a link? [01:23:00.0000] people seem to go to extreme lengths right now with document.open and document.written meta refreshes and all kinds of nonsense [01:27:00.0000] for a long time, i argued that things like "meta refresh doesn't send referrer" and "links from https to http send no referrer at all" are bugs, maybe even security problems [01:28:00.0000] how about making the rel strip out the path&query from the referrer but leave the hostname [01:32:00.0000] seems simpler just to allow the whole thing to be dropped [01:32:01.0000] why would it be a security problem? [01:32:02.0000] how is not sending referer conceivably a security bug? [01:34:00.0000] rel=noreferer now in the spec. [01:35:00.0000] is that really a RELationship? [01:36:00.0000] not really, but hey, rel is pretty damn poluted already anyway [01:36:01.0000] i considered rel=untrusted, but i figured why pretend [01:37:00.0000] we could add an attribute, but that's far heavier [01:37:01.0000] (adds an attribute to two elements, DOM attributes to match, etc) [01:45:00.0000] /me hopes that TPAC will have better wifi connectivity than XTech [01:46:00.0000] /me expects GPRS/EDGE/HSDPA roaming to be insanely expensive and perhaps even broken [01:46:01.0000] tps usually have wifi. [01:46:02.0000] better wifi, i wouldn't count on. [01:46:03.0000] at least not at the start of hte week [01:46:04.0000] it usually settles down by about noon on wednesday [01:47:00.0000] Hixie: XTech had none for people who weren't presenting the same day, so almost any connectivity would be better [01:48:00.0000] heh [01:51:00.0000] huh [01:51:01.0000] HTMLHeadElement.profile in DOM2 HTML is defined to return one URI [01:51:02.0000] but in HTML4 is defined to take a space-separated list of URIs [01:51:03.0000] yum [01:52:00.0000] (HTML5 drops both) [01:52:01.0000] are there other attributes that take lists of URIs? [01:52:02.0000] or is it just profile (and now ping)? [01:52:03.0000] I guess that happens when the operation/DOM nonsense is pushed to another spec [01:53:00.0000] hsivonen: yeah, that's why i think it's totally stupid to suggest they should be split again. but whatever. :-) [01:53:01.0000] i wonder how i should expose ping in the DOM [01:53:02.0000] did someone suggest that? [01:53:03.0000] i think ff3 just has a DOMString of absolute URIs [01:53:04.0000] Hixie: the input method attribute on WF2 whatever it was called takes a list on tokens and URIs [01:53:05.0000] othermaciej: oh it's a common request [01:53:06.0000] the xforms thingy? [01:53:07.0000] hmm [01:53:08.0000] i wonder how i handled that [01:54:00.0000] i bet i just ignored it [01:54:01.0000] othermaciej: "operational/DOM nonsense" is from Roy Fielding's survey "disagree" rationale [01:54:02.0000] /me notes searching for "input" and searching for "method" in the wf2 spec... not useful [01:54:03.0000] Hixie: yeah, the XForms thingy [01:55:00.0000] inputmode [01:55:01.0000] hsivonen: I wonder if anyone told him about SVG, MathML, XForms... [01:55:02.0000] crap. inputmode is just a DOMString. [01:55:03.0000] screwed myself again. [01:55:04.0000] Hixie: it's xsd:string in the XForms schema :-) [01:55:05.0000] good times. [01:56:00.0000] ok so what do i do for ping. Make it a DOMString with a parallel pingList that uses the DOMTokenList thingy, and then never actually put pingList in the spec because, you know, why bother? [01:56:01.0000] or do i actually do URI resolution [01:56:02.0000] do i have a DOMStringList for it? [01:56:03.0000] aaah so many options [01:57:00.0000] aside: IIRC, XForms wasn't clear on whether IRIs are OK as inputmodes [01:57:01.0000] /me looks up the new ed with so many diffs [01:59:00.0000] i think i'll just make .ping return a DOMString of resolved absolute URIs [01:59:01.0000] which is a dumb API [01:59:02.0000] but i don't see what else to do [02:00:00.0000] /me doesn't find "IRI" in XForms 3rd ed. [02:00:01.0000] does this mean XForms isn't properly internationalized? :-) [02:01:00.0000] no diffs in the inputmode section [02:02:00.0000] (schema-wise inputmode is the most complex attribute in HTML5) [02:02:01.0000] (and in XForms they dodged it all with xsd:string) [02:03:00.0000] Hixie, a DOMTokenList if resolved URIs? [02:03:01.0000] hmm. I have written this in comments: "# XForms seems to allow IRIs when it talks about URIs." [02:04:00.0000] I wonder where I got that from [02:04:01.0000] I also have "# Let's assume case, digits and symbols are mutually exclusive to cut down on possible permutations." [02:04:02.0000] # "halfWidth" is deprecated [02:04:03.0000] # Just assuming at least one token is required. The spec does not say. [02:05:00.0000] I guess the spec wasn't unambiguous :-) [02:05:01.0000] and WF2 imports the ambiguity [02:06:00.0000] Hixie: btw, I've made inputmode enumerated tokens case-sensitive [02:07:00.0000] Hixie: HTML5 enumerated tokens are otherwise ascii-case-insensitive [02:07:01.0000] Hixie: the spec should probably say something about case-sensitivity when importing inputmode from XForms [02:08:00.0000] /me wonders if the S60 version of Opera will have actual inputmode support [02:08:01.0000] Opera 9 that is [02:08:02.0000] hsivonen: i expect to define inputmode explicitly or drop it completely when wf2 becomes part of html5. [02:09:00.0000] annevk2: but then you can't do .ping = 'x y z' [02:09:01.0000] Hixie: ok [02:09:02.0000] annevk2: you have to use the API to add and remove URIs [02:09:03.0000] you can do setAttribute("ping", "x y z") [02:10:00.0000] annevk2: sure, but that's inconsistent, you can set every other attribute [02:11:00.0000] ok, dunno really then [02:11:01.0000] yeah me either [02:11:02.0000] i'm not sure what the use case is for a DOM attribute here anyway [02:11:03.0000] consistency [02:11:04.0000] aside: something else profile='' and inputmode='' have in common is that they require absolute IRIs [02:12:00.0000] Hixie, in that case do the resolve URI thingie [02:12:01.0000] oh yeah i guess profile="" didn't allow relative ones [02:12:02.0000] annevk2: yeah that's what the spec now says [02:12:03.0000] annevk2: :-( [02:13:00.0000] how does the spec deal with space separated lists of URIs then in "reflect" [02:14:00.0000] i added a paragraph there [02:14:01.0000] in fact that's all i changed [02:14:02.0000] see diff [02:15:00.0000] ah, refresh helps [02:16:00.0000] i'm confused by issue-2 [02:16:01.0000] not sure what to do about it [02:16:02.0000] Hixie: about the ping UI req [02:17:00.0000] whether the spec can/should require ping to be exposed in the UI [02:18:00.0000] /me is seeing the death of an old business model: my mobile Internet is now fast enough to route Skype calls through for fraction of the cost circuit-switched calls cost [02:19:00.0000] hsivonen: oh i understand the issue. i just don't know what to do about it. [02:19:01.0000] the telco sells me flatrate packet data but charges 0.25 euros per minute for circuit-switched video calls [02:19:02.0000] oh sorry [02:19:03.0000] and there are lots of business models dying at the moment [02:19:04.0000] it's great [02:19:05.0000] :-) [02:19:06.0000] breathing new blood into the human race [02:19:07.0000] or at least the capitalist part [02:21:00.0000] off-topic, but I've never like the attitude of telco folks. [02:22:00.0000] back at the university, we had a course where the IP part was lectured by a guy who had been extending the Internet to Finland early on [02:22:01.0000] and had later built the "Saudi Internet" [02:23:00.0000] and then there were guest lectures from telcos talking about phone stuff [02:23:01.0000] the different in attitude was striking [02:23:02.0000] a telco person showed a slide pondering what they can charge for [02:23:03.0000] and it had a "per bullet" (in a game) bullet point [02:24:00.0000] (now that I think of it, that would be the game version of Chris Rock's "bullet control" :-) [02:24:01.0000] what's shocking isn't so much their gall or greed but that it works [02:34:00.0000] Hixie: actually, the failure of WAP and the rise of real browser engines and Internet connectivity on phones is some indication that the telco gall is no longer working like it used to [02:48:00.0000] yeah they're slowly dying [02:48:01.0000] but not very fast [02:50:00.0000] the main problem is that many countries allow telcos to control the handset features [02:50:01.0000] that's evil [02:52:00.0000] it's frustrating that the business side of Nokia is blocking some technical goodness because Nokia needs to appease to telcos abroad where the telcos call the shots [02:52:01.0000] Another problem is that some countries allow locked handsets to be sold without an unlocked version avaliable [02:52:02.0000] am i really not explaining myself in this ping='' discussion, or is julian just not reading what i write? [02:53:00.0000] for the past like 3 e-mails he's asked me the same question, as far as i can tell [02:53:01.0000] Lachy: that's the mechanism that they use to control handset features [02:54:00.0000] /me throws the ping="" mail onto the links pile and goes to bed [02:54:01.0000] nn [02:57:00.0000] the major *business* innovation in Nokia 770, N800 and N810 is that the device doesn't have a GSM unit and, therefore, can bypass the phone sales channel in countries with bad laws [02:58:00.0000] how do they work without GSM? [02:58:01.0000] Lachy: through wifi or routing via Bluetooth through a separate GSM device [02:59:00.0000] Lachy: so I get to run VoIP software on the N800 and route the packets through my phone [02:59:01.0000] ok. So it's only really useful in areas where there's sufficient open wifi coverage [03:00:00.0000] Lachy: in Helsinki, I use my N800 with the traffic routed through my HSDPA phone [03:00:01.0000] ok [03:01:00.0000] Lachy: that I can't get proper VoIP software for the S60 handset is just an artificial barries [03:01:01.0000] barrier [03:01:02.0000] people can ship all the VoIP software they want for the N800 [03:09:00.0000] gah, i couldn't help replying. [03:09:01.0000] now i'm really going to bed 2007-11-05 [10:47:00.0000] /me wonders how to define quoted-string unescaping. [10:47:01.0000] Copy someone else's definition that looks good? [10:48:00.0000] Philip`: bleh. :P [10:50:00.0000] HTTP implementations tend to be rather confusing, sadly [11:01:00.0000] /me can't actually find the code in Fx that does it [11:07:00.0000] gsnedders: There's things like http://mxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/netwerk/protocol/http/src/nsHttpChannel.cpp#2989 that appear to be handling quoted-string in at least one case [11:07:01.0000] /me hopes nobody wants to quote a string with a \ in it [11:24:00.0000] Philip`: yeah, there seem to be all kinds of different implementations all over the sourcebase, all with their own bugs (though there are a very finite number of bugs I've ever seen) [11:25:00.0000] Philip`: from what I've seen, there's no reason _not_ to follow the RFC 2616 meaning (however undefined that happens to be) [14:58:00.0000] Hixie: With the link changes, it doesn't need the definition "A subdocument is said to be a child of the document it is a subdocument of." any more [15:01:00.0000] Also s/a // in "the end of the a sequence" [15:01:01.0000] i don't understand your first comment [15:01:02.0000] That sentence is defining what "a child" means, but that term is never used in the rest of the document [15:01:03.0000] ah ok [15:04:00.0000] /me wonders if anyone cares about infinite or cyclic sequences [15:06:00.0000] well there's no UA conformance criteria [15:06:01.0000] so it doesn't really matter all that much 2007-11-06 [18:02:00.0000] hello people [18:04:00.0000] waaaaa [00:46:00.0000] virtuelv - any idea of there is an opera:config option that corresponds to the "Display tooltips" option that you can set in Preferences? [00:47:00.0000] I find opera:config#UserPrefs|DisplayLinkTitle but that's for disabling display of content of title attributes [00:47:01.0000] MikeSmith: gimme a moment and I'll find out [00:47:02.0000] thx [00:47:03.0000] My dad is asking me because he says he finds it really annoying to have tooltip text popping up every time he hovers over links. [00:48:00.0000] I tell him, get used to it. [00:48:01.0000] But he seems unsatisfied with that answer. [00:49:00.0000] MikeSmith: easy solution: turn on the status bar [00:50:00.0000] virtuelv - OK [00:50:01.0000] then the tooltips will only show up for links which have their title attribute set [00:57:00.0000] MikeSmith: opera:config#UserPrefs|PopupButtonHelp [00:58:00.0000] virtuelv - thanks very much [00:59:00.0000] oddly named but so are a lot of other options I guess [01:00:00.0000] Yeah, I guess it's named that way for historical reasons [01:00:01.0000] again, according to opera:config we're also caching figs [01:00:02.0000] huh? [01:00:03.0000] btw, would help if the search box on the opera:config page searched the help text for the options instead of just the option names [01:01:00.0000] (Image caching, actually, but any english-speaking version person would think of them as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fig ) [01:01:01.0000] I searched for "tooltips" but finded nothing [01:01:02.0000] MikeSmith: I know [01:01:03.0000] I'd like to see the helpfile integrated into that page [01:01:04.0000] /me opens up BTS to file an enhancement request [01:01:05.0000] damn, looks like my BTS access has been disabled for some reason [01:04:00.0000] virtuelv - You telling me about image caching because I asked you about it earlier? [01:05:00.0000] Also by the way, will you be able to call into the WAF meeting today? [01:05:01.0000] no, just to mention how opera:config options aren't always logically named [01:05:02.0000] yeah, I'm calling in [01:06:00.0000]