2009-02-01
[17:12:00.0000] <Lachy>
I managed to write a simple python script using html5lib to read the spec source and find all the element summaries.  Tomorrow, I should be able to extend the script to generate element summaries for the authoring guide

[17:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
neat

[17:13:01.0000] <Hixie>
let me know if you want me to do a POST to a particular url every time i do a commit

[17:13:02.0000] <Hixie>
that way you could have your spec autoregenerate when i update the spec

[17:13:03.0000] <Lachy>
yeah, it's a lot better than I had been doing, which involved a lot more manual work. This should at least spead up progress a lot

[17:15:00.0000] <Lachy>
you check in so frequently compared with me, and most of your changes won't affect the element summaries, so that wouldn't be worth the effort

[17:16:00.0000] <Lachy>
I would like some way to know that element summaries have changed, though, if possible, so I know I should regenerate that section.

[17:17:00.0000] <Lachy>
what do you think about the template design I linked above?

[17:17:01.0000] <Lachy>
any suggestions for improvement?

[17:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
the DOM interface part is going to be huge for some elements

[17:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
i dunno

[17:40:01.0000] <Hixie>
are the categories and suchlike going to be links?

[17:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
maybe the attributes and IDL should both just be <dl>s with name/definition pairs

[17:42:00.0000] <karlcow>
Lachy: feel free to share it somewhere ;)  I mean the script

[17:42:01.0000] <Lachy>
yeah, they will all be linked once anolis generates them

[17:42:02.0000] <Lachy>
karlcow, it will be checked into CVS once it's finished

[17:42:03.0000] <karlcow>
cool

[17:43:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, do you mean <dl><dt>Attributes <dd>attr1<dd>attr2 ... <dt>DOM Interfaces <dd>prop1<dd>prop2 ...</dl>?

[17:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
no

[17:43:02.0000] <Lachy>
or do you mean each attribute <dt>Attr <dd>description of attr

[17:43:03.0000] <Hixie>
the latter

[17:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
i was about to type an example but you got there first :-)

[17:45:00.0000] <Lachy>
if each attribute was to have a description, I was considering using a table instead.

[17:45:01.0000] <Hixie>
that's fine too

[17:45:02.0000] <Lachy>
But then I'd need to write short summary descriptions for each attribute, though I wanted to avoid cluttering the summary boxes with too much information

[17:46:00.0000] <Lachy>
hmm, maybe something like the comments for each attr in the HTML4 DTD would be ok. e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/links.html#edef-A

[17:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
just have the full descriptions there

[17:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
you'll probably have to split the attribute descriptions from the more meaty "how to use the element" text anyway

[17:51:00.0000] <Lachy>
maybe. it depends how much I need to write for each attribute description

[17:51:01.0000] <Lachy>
if it's a lot, then it's not really going to fit in the space too well

[17:51:02.0000] <Hixie>
on the web the space is infinite :-)

[17:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
i wouldn't worry too much about having the right template

[17:52:01.0000] <Hixie>
once you've got descriptions for a dozen elements or two, you'll have a much better idea of what you have to put in the template

[17:54:00.0000] <Lachy>
reload the template and take a look now

[18:05:00.0000] <jwalden>
/me wonders if the HTTP spec will ever sanction use of Set-Cookie, WWW-Authenticate, and Proxy-Authenticate as they are actually used

[18:06:00.0000] <Lachy>
wtf? Sam incorrectly defined the meaning of a strawman http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jan/0688.html and then Leif incorrectly pointed out something isn't a strawman, either by it's real definition, nor Sam's http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Feb/0000.html

[18:06:01.0000] <jwalden>
/me suspects not, based on http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/ticket/129

[21:11:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: i was surprised to see sam's suggestion of actually having people call each other out; it'll be interesting to see how such an approach fares

[21:11:01.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: the attribute side looks good; i still think the idl side should use a similar technique instead of webidl

[21:26:00.0000] <heycam>
hey Hixie i'm here for a bit

[21:26:01.0000] <Hixie>
hey

[21:26:02.0000] <Hixie>
two things

[21:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
1 - when you have a moment, i would appreciate your feedback on the WindowProxy section in the spec

[21:27:01.0000] <heycam>
k i'll have a look during the week

[21:27:02.0000] <Hixie>
(it's very short)

[21:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
2 - we have to say that the "this" keyword in JS at the global scope returns the WindowProxy object instead of the actual global object

[21:28:01.0000] <heycam>
uh oh

[21:28:02.0000] <Hixie>
i'm unsure whether it's best to say this in WebIDL, with the JS binding stuff, or if we should say it in HTML5, in a JS-specific section

[21:28:03.0000] <Hixie>
(or in ES 3.x, but they probably don't want a forward dependency on html5)

[21:29:00.0000] <heycam>
so it's a violation of es3?

[21:29:01.0000] <heycam>
i haven't looked much into the whole split window thing: is it that "this" at the global scope returns one object, while a different object is in the scope chain?

[21:33:00.0000] <heycam>
as to whether it's more appropriate in web idl or html5, dunno

[21:33:01.0000] <heycam>
guess i'll need to look at what exactly it entails

[21:34:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah it's a violation of es 3.1

[21:34:01.0000] <Hixie>
yes, the top object in the scope chain is the global object (the Window object for that script's Document)

[21:34:02.0000] <Hixie>
and the .window, this, etc, attributes all return a WindowProxy object

[21:37:00.0000] <heycam>
so perhaps it needn't be a violation, it's just that evaluating the contents of a <script> is done with some extra futzing of this/scope chain, rather than being whatever a global code execution says in ES

[21:38:00.0000] <heycam>
in web idl, i don't say anything about what object is the global object, or what happens when a top level script is executed

[21:38:01.0000] <heycam>
i just say what properties exist on the global, and what their functionality is, etc.

[21:38:02.0000] <Hixie>
html5 mentions what the global object is, without mentioning its importance to js

[21:39:00.0000] <heycam>
would you want an explicit hook for html5 to define what's the global object?

[21:39:01.0000] <heycam>
(an explicit hook in web idl that is?)

[21:39:02.0000] <Hixie>
i'm ok with the current text, but i'm also very happy to make it explicit, sure

[21:39:03.0000] <Hixie>
if we do add such text, we can add text to make |this| different at the same time

[21:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
see a recent e-mail on whatwg about this for some background, btw

[21:40:01.0000] <Hixie>
from bz i think

[21:45:00.0000] <heycam>
so this behaviour is the same when executing a <script> as when, say, firing an event listener?

[21:49:00.0000] <heycam>
maybe web idl should have a definition for executing a script with a particular object in the scope chain?

[21:50:00.0000] <heycam>
i see the definition for "The script settings determined from the node" seems pretty generic

[21:50:01.0000] <heycam>
would you imagine this split window thing would be applicable to other languages?

[21:50:02.0000] <heycam>
/me wonders why some <dfn>s are italicised now

[21:52:00.0000] <heycam>
it'd be nice if whatwg⊙wo mails had an Archived-At header, like w3.org lists

[21:52:01.0000] <Hixie>
sorry, had a real life distraction

[21:53:00.0000] <Hixie>
yes, the behavior is the same for all scripts, javascript:, <script>, event handlers, whatever. Though event handlers already have an explicit definition of the scope chain somewhere in html5.

[21:53:01.0000] <heycam>
so the only diff is the replacement of the scope chain object with some other object (the "inner" window)

[21:53:02.0000] <Hixie>
do other languages have a global object, even?

[21:53:03.0000] <heycam>
/me shrugs

[21:54:00.0000] <heycam>
gotta go, bbl

[21:54:01.0000] <Hixie>
k

[21:54:02.0000] <Hixie>
later

[21:54:03.0000] <Hixie>
thanks

[04:25:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me has parts of html5lib limping along in python 3

[04:26:00.0000] <jgraham>
Like enough to do html5lib.parse(b"<html></html>) but not enough to deal with the possibility of passing in a file object with the encoding set but the wrong error handling mode

[04:26:01.0000] <jgraham>
Which I don't really know how to deal with apart from saying "don't do that"

[04:28:00.0000] <jgraham>
This is, of course a distraction and I should really be concentrating on the MathML + SVG stuff but it is quite a fun distraction

[04:31:00.0000] <takkaria>
it's interesting.  when it came to data interchange, people first jumped on XML for it.  now they're jumping on RDF-in-XML

[04:31:01.0000] <takkaria>
I wonder if there's going to be an abstraction over that at some point, too

[05:34:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Is it bad that Safari's lack of regex in it's find box is annoying

[05:34:01.0000] <gsnedders>
*its

[05:34:02.0000] <gsnedders>
?

[05:44:00.0000] <Lachy>
gsnedders, I don't know of any browser that supports regex searching

[06:29:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Does anyone have any data about how common different character sets are?

[06:32:00.0000] <karlcow>
Lachy: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/6534 something like this maybe?

[06:35:00.0000] <Lachy>
karlcow, thanks

[07:06:00.0000] <hsivonen>
http://video.dld-conference.com/watch/dTMYg3z?t=dld09 at 20 minutes 

[07:11:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Do you mean something like http://philip.html5.org/data/charsets.html ?

[07:11:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: yes

[07:11:02.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: I don't think anyone has any data like that

[07:12:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: That data there should be enough to work from

[07:12:01.0000] <Philip`>
Oh, right, I have data like that - that was convenient

[07:13:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: :P

[07:13:01.0000] <gsnedders>
I'd be interested in a bigger less bias sample, though

[07:13:02.0000] <gsnedders>
(Seeming dmoz is bias towards English)

[07:14:00.0000] <Philip`>
I don't think the concept of "less bias" exists

[07:14:01.0000] <Philip`>
You can just choose the direction in which you want the bias to be

[07:14:02.0000] <Philip`>
Ooh, a blizzard

[07:15:00.0000] <Philip`>
(dmoz is definitely biased towards English, and I think it's also biased towards western European)

[07:16:00.0000] <Philip`>
(so it's really bad for e.g. Chinese sites)

[07:17:00.0000] <Philip`>
*.uk: 161279 pages

[07:17:01.0000] <Philip`>
*.de: 295359

[07:17:02.0000] <Philip`>
*.jp: 119322

[07:17:03.0000] <Philip`>
*.cn: 7582

[07:17:04.0000] <jcranmer>
.zh?

[07:18:00.0000] <Philip`>
*.zh: 36

[07:19:00.0000] <Philip`>
Whoops

[07:19:01.0000] <Philip`>
That's because '.' was a regexp

[07:19:02.0000] <Philip`>
If I make it \. then there's 0

[07:19:03.0000] <Philip`>
(The other numbers don't change much)

[07:20:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: Yeah, that's my problem.

[07:20:01.0000] <gsnedders>
What's ZH?

[07:20:02.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, interesting

[07:21:00.0000] <myakura>
/me thinks those *.jp sites are years old

[07:21:01.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, didn't know he was CEO of CC

[07:21:02.0000] <annevk>
(that Flash player they are using is also really cool btw)

[07:22:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Alexa's list might be better, since it's got ~20K for *.cn (and similar for *.jp and *.uk)

[07:23:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: But do you have data for that? :P

[07:23:01.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: (though it only lists sites rather than pages, so it's entirely biased towards the initial entry pages)

[07:24:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: No, but you could easily download the list and then download a few thousand .cn pages and search them for patterns :-)

[07:31:00.0000] <karlcow>
Philip`: there would be benefit of having separate sets for different countries. I had this discussion with blooberry about the mama too.

[07:32:00.0000] <karlcow>
The issue is how to create these sets

[07:33:00.0000] <Philip`>
karlcow: The problem is that it would encourage comparison between datasets, and comparisons are very dangerous because you're usually comparing the bias of the samples rather than real differences

[07:33:01.0000] <karlcow>
There is also all the invisible Web. The one behind passwd or intranets

[07:34:00.0000] <karlcow>
Philip`: yes indeed, you have to always give the context of your studies, plus a bit of error calculations. 

[07:34:01.0000] <karlcow>
There is nothing *true* in sample surveys, just giving you hints but not certainty

[07:35:00.0000] <karlcow>
/me has suddenly a big wave of astrophysical studies and research coming back to his head

[07:36:00.0000] <blooberry>
With publicly available sets, the burden of determining the set is pretty much off the entity that is doing the analysis. Any other set requires a lot of extra legwork, both in getting and describing the additional URLs, examining its bias. Not to say that publicly available sets don't have bias, it is just that they are more easily documented.

[07:37:00.0000] <annevk>
can someone quickly tell me whether the character that e.g. &euml; represents can have multiple Unicode representations?

[07:37:01.0000] <annevk>
e.g. its own character and one using two characters that combine into one?

[07:37:02.0000] <Philip`>
karlcow: Error calculations don't seem especially helpful here - I can say "(4.56+/-0.07)% of pages in dmoz.org have property P" based on the sample size, but that says nothing meaningful about other data sets (e.g. dmoz.org yesterday or tomorrow, or some other selection of pages)

[07:39:00.0000] <karlcow>
Philip`: again context… and calculation of confidence depending on your data set.

[07:40:00.0000] <gsnedders>
annevk: What is euml?

[07:40:01.0000] <annevk>
data:text/html,&euml;

[07:40:02.0000] <gsnedders>
annevk: Yes, it has at least two representations

[07:40:03.0000] <annevk>
thx

[07:41:00.0000] <karlcow>
U+000EB

[07:41:01.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: Yeah, I could find that. I don't however know Unicode codepoints off the top of my head. :)

[07:42:00.0000] <karlcow>
/me neither

[07:48:00.0000] <blooberry>
So, is there a way to use available URL sets that is both reproduceable and has the ability to improve the set in ways that are statistically meaningful?

[07:48:01.0000] <karlcow>
ah the combining diaresis is 0308 

[07:48:02.0000] <karlcow>
and the diaresis is 00A8 

[07:49:00.0000] <karlcow>
blooberry: as a downloaded set or as an accessible set ?

[07:49:01.0000] <karlcow>
/me will have to explain that

[07:51:00.0000] <karlcow>
an URL set is "biological". It changes in time, because of the nature of the Web. So for example to compare the results of two different tools, we need a downloaded dated set of URIs and their content (and metadata going with it)

[07:52:00.0000] <blooberry>
karlcow: *nodding agreement*

[07:53:00.0000] <karlcow>
Then there is the quality of the set… and here same kind of issues than in astrophysics when I was doing star fields research. At a point you have to select the stars, because if you pick up randomly, you get many interesting stats, but not really usable in a scientific way

[07:54:00.0000] <blooberry>
What if you balance it between selected and random?

[07:54:01.0000] <karlcow>
I guess the balanced set helps you to test the quality of the random

[07:55:00.0000] <karlcow>
s/balanced/selected/

[08:12:00.0000] <karlcow>
the selected set helps you to test hypothesis in a controlled environment. For example, new Web sites released by Web agencies (recent contracts) to see what are the new professional practices.

[08:14:00.0000] <karlcow>
on a Japanese only set and on a few years, we could also see for example if people are switching to utf-8 or not.

[08:14:01.0000] <karlcow>
without necessary knowing if it's a local choice or a constraints of the tools to produce Web sites.

[08:16:00.0000] <karlcow>
blooberry: did you play with different user agent strings for the MAMA, faking the string to see the variability?

[08:20:00.0000] <blooberry>
That's been on my list of things to do. I played around with it once with the Alexa Top 1000 and had interesting results, but they were hard to interpret.

[08:20:01.0000] <blooberry>
I've never come up with the perfect way to compare the results between UA strings. 

[08:20:02.0000] <blooberry>
I kept finding different things that were variable between versions.

[08:24:00.0000] <blooberry>
I pulled content using the latest UAs from Opera, FF, and MSIE, as well as the forthcoming Opera UA, as well as a UA called "foo" for comparison. 8-}

[08:28:00.0000] <karlcow>
blooberry: hehe. The Power of Foo! known by old monks in China for generations. They tackle issues on bad Web pages. 

[08:29:00.0000] <blooberry>
yes, they are the experts in Kung Foo

[08:30:00.0000] <blooberry>
I found that I had to ignore both IMG references and hyperlink HREFs, because many sites randomize the arguments for them to aid tracking...it just makes the analysis job harder. ;-}

[08:32:00.0000] <blooberry>
At a certain point I was really wondering if what I was deleting was too crucial to throw away. I'm not sure of the answer to that.

[12:59:00.0000] <Lachy>
Looks like some people involved with HTML4All have started creating their own HTML spec http://html4all.org/mailman/archives/list_html4all.org/2009-February/001038.html

[13:04:00.0000] <gsnedders>
I'm just confused trying to read the wiki draft

[13:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me looks to see if they have any good ideas worth taking into html5

[13:15:00.0000] <Lachy>
my script to generate the element summaries for the authoring guide is working well, though it's not quite finished

[13:16:00.0000] <karlcow>
they called it "4.1"

[13:16:01.0000] <gsnedders>
5 > 4.1. EOF;

[13:16:02.0000] <gsnedders>
:P

[13:16:03.0000] <karlcow>
gsnedders: and you want candies with that? 

[13:17:00.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: Nah, not really

[13:17:01.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: A minion that could write an English essay for me would be nice though

[13:17:02.0000] <karlcow>
or maybe an enhancer, because it seems there is an issue with the length of your thing

[13:18:00.0000] <Lachy>
gsnedders, do you know how I can use the html5lib serialiser to pretty print the output from my script?

[13:19:00.0000] <Lachy>
or at least print it in a way that doesn't insert new lines everywhere

[13:19:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Lachy: Not off the top of my head

[13:19:02.0000] <Lachy>
I'm using the example provided here http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/wiki/UserDocumentation#Serialization_of_Streams

[13:20:00.0000] <Lachy>
but it seems the print statement adds a LF after every line. Is there a way to stop that?

[13:21:00.0000] <karlcow>
/me wonders if they built it from scratch or they if took the source of html 5 and changed some of the things

[13:21:01.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: Parts are from html5 (run through tidy and converted to XHTML 1.0 Strict), others are from scratch, as far as I can tell

[13:21:02.0000] <Lachy>
ah, it works if I use: "print item,"  The comma must suppress the LF

[13:22:00.0000] <karlcow>
that gives now html5, html 4.1, html6, hmm what else

[13:22:01.0000] <karlcow>
gsnedders: ah. thanks

[13:22:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Lachy: You probably want to just write to file directly

[13:23:00.0000] <karlcow>
http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php/Inaugural_Members

[13:23:01.0000] <Lachy>
gsnedders, I figured if I write to standard output, then I can eventually just pipe it to other scripts that incorporate those summaries into the main document

[13:23:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Lachy: import sys

[13:24:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Lachy: sys.stdout.write(item)

[13:24:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me shrugs

[13:25:00.0000] <karlcow>
hmmm mainly rob http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php/Special:Recentchanges

[13:26:00.0000] <karlcow>
at least Rob does all the wiki edits 

[13:27:00.0000] <Lachy>
gsnedders, thanks

[13:27:01.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, this is the output from my script so far http://lachy.id.au/temp/template.html

[13:28:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Because authors love IDL!

[13:28:01.0000] <Lachy>
gsnedders, I need to do something better with the IDL, eventually

[13:28:02.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: looks familiar :-P

[13:28:03.0000] <Lachy>
I just have to figure out what and how. For now, it's easier to just stick it in there as-is as a placeholder

[13:29:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, it should. My script just steals all the content from the script and reformats it

[13:29:01.0000] <Hixie>
:-)

[13:30:00.0000] <karlcow>
http://code.google.com/intl/fr/search/#q=%22import%20html5lib%22

[13:31:00.0000] <karlcow>
http://search.koders.com/default.aspx?s=%22import+html5lib%22&btn=&la=%2A&li=%2A

[13:32:00.0000] <karlcow>
hmm beautifulsoup not a lot of results either http://search.koders.com/default.aspx?s=%22import+BeautifulSoup%22&btn=&la=%2A&li=%2A

[13:33:00.0000] <gsnedders>
It doesn't even include Anolis! :'(

[13:48:00.0000] <Lachy>
http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/#the-html-vocabulary-and-apis

[13:52:00.0000] <Lachy>
karlcow, as you requested yesterday, the script to generate the element summaries is now in CVS http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/utils/

[13:52:01.0000] <Lachy>
see elements.py and elements.template.html

[13:54:00.0000] <karlcow>
excellent

[13:54:01.0000] <karlcow>
lachy++

[13:55:00.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: "print item," prints a space at the end, which probably isn't what you want

[13:56:00.0000] <Lachy>
Philip`, ok. I changed it to sys.stdout.write() as gsnedders suggested anyway

[13:57:00.0000] <Philip`>
(Ooh, the ground is covered in snow, for the first time since ages and ages ago)

[13:58:00.0000] <Philip`>
karlcow: Your searches will miss people writing "from BeautifulSoup import ..."

[14:04:00.0000] <Lachy>
http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/#the-html-vocabulary-and-apis now has category descriptions, and appropriate links from each element summary

[14:06:00.0000] <karlcow>
Philip`: indeed.

[14:20:00.0000] <gsnedders>
gsnedders top tip: remember the syrup when making flapjack.

[14:21:00.0000] <gsnedders>
It doesn't work when you forget it

[14:47:00.0000] <olliej>
yoyo all

[15:28:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, what's so wrong with the datagrid API that now apparently needs to be rewritten?

[15:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
it's synchronous

[15:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
alex russel sent mail about it a few weeks ago

[15:31:00.0000] <Lachy>
ok


2009-02-02
[17:38:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, the spec defines "semi-transparent" content models, but there don't appear to be any elements that use that as their content model. Is that an old content model that is no longer used, or one you intend to use for some elements later?

[17:42:00.0000] <Lachy>
I suppose it's something that could be used for the object element, except that its description just says "Zero or more param elements, then, transparent."

[17:52:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I think that's what semi-transparent was used for, yeah

[17:58:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Hmm no... video and audio were semi-transparent until the change where strictly inline content was obsoleted.

[18:05:00.0000] <Dashiva>
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/01/31/nielsen-deletes-reply-to-all-button/

[18:16:00.0000] <Lachy>
wtf? the Reply All button is essential, disabling it is a bad idea

[18:35:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: send mail or file a bug and i'll fix it up when doing editorial fixes

[18:35:01.0000] <Hixie>
oh you did

[18:35:02.0000] <Hixie>
thanks!

[20:02:00.0000] <jwalden>
/me likes his Reply to All because usually that's what he wants, and he remembers more to remove addresses than to add all of them

[20:02:01.0000] <jwalden>
I deled the Reply button from my toolbar and left only the all counterpart to help

[22:46:00.0000] <Hixie>
i am amused at the people talking about how public-html is dysfunction in a thread that is about 5 steps removed from discussion of spec material

[23:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
compare the rule for fieldset in these two files:

[23:27:01.0000] <Hixie>
http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/style/forms.css

[23:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
http://trac.webkit.org/export/40471/trunk/WebCore/css/html4.css

[23:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
i wonder why the numbers are rotated around

[23:28:02.0000] <Hixie>
that makes no sense to me

[23:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
i wonder who copied who and who changed

[23:31:00.0000] <Hixie>
http://bonsai.mozilla.org/cvsview2.cgi?diff_mode=context&whitespace_mode=show&root=/cvsroot&subdir=mozilla/layout/style&command=DIFF_FRAMESET&file=forms.css&rev2=3.76&rev1=3.75

[23:32:00.0000] <Hixie>
http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/10579

[23:32:01.0000] <Hixie>
how amusing

[23:32:02.0000] <Hixie>
they both started the same and forked in different ways

[23:33:00.0000] <Hixie>
looks like hyatt screwed that one up

[23:42:00.0000] <jwalden>
you're surprised?  I mean, come on: http://images0.cafepress.com/product_zoom/1417340v1_400x400_Back.jpg  ;-)

[01:06:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me wonders if using minidom with Lachy's script makes it horribly slow

[01:06:01.0000] <jgraham>
(but I'm too lazy to try it out)

[01:07:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me assumes that merely using html5lib makes it horribly slow

[01:07:01.0000] <jgraham>
Well yes, there is that :)

[01:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
i wonder why eric meyer wants value="" on <input type=image>

[01:08:01.0000] <Hixie>
so much that he switched to xhtml to use it

[01:08:02.0000] <jgraham>
(FWIW the python 3 version seems to be slightly faster although that was a totally non scientific test that involved me remembering the speed parsing the html5 spec)

[01:09:00.0000] <Philip`>
(Does it pass tests too?)

[01:11:00.0000] <jgraham>
(Yes, it seems to)

[01:12:00.0000] <Philip`>
(Sounds good!)

[01:12:01.0000] <jgraham>
(But that may not mean much; I couldn't check the output when running against the html5 spec because python3 decides that sys.stdout redirected to a file takes strings with default character encoding mac-roman (on a mac) and I couldn't work out how to change that)

[01:13:00.0000] <jgraham>
(so it just bails with an encoding error)

[01:13:01.0000] <Hixie>
what's all the whispering over there in the corner

[01:13:02.0000] <Hixie>
are you guys plotting some evil scheme

[01:14:00.0000] <hsivonen>
if they are, that's not krijn's secrecy syntax

[01:15:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me is just wwhispering about python 3 html5lib in case someone accidentially overhears and takes it seriously 

[01:19:00.0000] <Lachy>
jgraham, yeah, it probably is slow because of minidom. But that was the only one with an API I was relatively familiar with and actually had a chance of getting something working

[01:22:00.0000] <Lachy>
Speed wasn't really a concern for me. It's not something that needs to run every day.  Only when Hixie makes an update to the element summaries in the spec. But if someone would like to make it faster for me using a better API, that would be appreciated.

[01:24:00.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: FWIW if you are planning to ever write another [HT|X]ML manipulating script in python, it is weel worth your while to learn the ElementTree/lxml api

[01:24:01.0000] <jgraham>
*well

[01:31:00.0000] <Lachy>
jgraham, I did try once, but it had some really weird design that made it unintuitive to work with

[01:32:00.0000] <Lachy>
like the element tail, which is text node after an element that, instead of just being attached to the parent, is attached to the previous element node

[01:35:00.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: Yeah the .text .tail thing is a bit weird. Although it makes much more sense when you realise that ElementTree doesn't think of text as a type of Node any more than it thinks of attributes as a type of Node. It thinks of text as a property of Elements

[01:38:00.0000] <Lachy>
jgraham, .text makes a little more sense than .tail though, because at least .text is contained within the element itself.  Whereas .tail means that you can't just remove an element from the tree, without first taking the tail and appending it to the previous sibling's .tail or the parent's .text

[01:41:00.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: What else can you do apart from .tail if you want to view text as a property? The concept of text nodes is also pretty problematic because you typically have to check whether each node is a text node or a element node when you iterate through the tree, and you can have non-normalized text nodes and so on

[01:42:00.0000] <Lachy>
jgraham, that's just a design flaw of the DOM which only had .childNodes instead of .childElements or maybe .childNodes(nodeType)

[01:43:00.0000] <Lachy>
ElementTraversal partially fixes those issues though

[01:55:00.0000] <Hixie>
a text-centric DOM would be interesting (basically, just a list of all the Text nodes, with a property on each one listing the elements that that node was in, and its attributes)

[02:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me ponders default styles for the new elements

[02:09:00.0000] <annevk>
can we make <button action=http://www.google.com/>TEST</button> work without requiring a form ancestor?

[02:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
i don't know of anything blocking us from doing that other than spec and implementation complexity

[02:12:00.0000] <Lachy>
annevk, what's the use case for doing that?

[02:12:01.0000] <wilhelm>
I'd rather have <a href='./delete/1337/' method='post'>delete</a>.

[02:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
wilhelm: that has a much worse back-compat story

[02:13:01.0000] <Hixie>
wilhelm: one that actually encourages people to do the wrong thing

[02:13:02.0000] <jgraham>
wilhelm: I'll let you duel that one out with the HTTP guys

[02:14:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me doesn't believe that users make any distinction between "safe" links and "unsafe" buttons

[02:14:01.0000] <Lachy>
oh, so the use case is: <button action="..." name=delete value=whatever> or any other action for which POST is more suitable than GET

[02:15:00.0000] <wilhelm>
True. But adding all that extra markup and having to restyle the button just to get a safe link is a pain:P

[02:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: the main difficulty spec-wise would be doing it in a way that doesn't include all the other elements that don't have a form in the same form

[02:16:01.0000] <Lachy>
jgraham, it's not really users that need to make the distinction. It's more the tools that automatically prefetch links and bots that should avoid non-idempotent actions

[02:16:02.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: but it could be done

[02:18:00.0000] <Lachy>
wilhelm, we just need the CSS3 'appearance' property to be implemented so that buttons can be more easily styled to look like links

[02:18:01.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: in principle <a method=foo> allows them to make that distiction (obviously it is not backwards compatible. Lots of people seem to argue that *users* make that distinction

[02:18:02.0000] <Hixie>
wilhelm: don't make delete buttons look like links. links are for navigation, it's bad ui to make them do things.

[02:18:03.0000] <Lachy>
jgraham, yeah, a lot of people have flawed arguments.

[02:19:00.0000] <annevk>
it seems better to keep <a> GET-only

[02:19:01.0000] <annevk>
at least as far as href="" is concerned

[02:19:02.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, whether it's a good idea or not, there are designers out there that insist on it, despite the stupidity

[02:21:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, any chance you could work on cross-origin media element loading before doing the rest of rendering?

[02:21:01.0000] <jgraham>
/me thinks it is not obviously stupid to make link-like things perform actions

[02:22:00.0000] <Lachy>
I suspect that the only distinction that users make between buttons and links is that buttons send information, usually what they type into a form, whereas links just retrieve data.

[02:22:01.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: doesn't mean we should make it easier. quite the contrary.

[02:22:02.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: what is there to do?

[02:22:03.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, I filed a bug; currently file size is exposed due to progress events

[02:22:04.0000] <zcorpan_>
/me notes that Hixie's table example works with the Smart Headers algorithm

[02:23:00.0000] <jgraham>
Or, more specifically, I think that if easy-to-use UIs use links to perform actions then they are, by example, good UI

[02:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: i'm not planning on doing anything with progress events until progress events is done

[02:23:02.0000] <Lachy>
zcorpan_, which table example?

[02:24:00.0000] <jgraham>
zcorpan_: Smart Headers doesn't distinguish between roww and colum headers which was one of aaron's requirements stemming from the way one of the accessibility apis works

[02:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: specifically, i'm waiting for chaals to respond to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JanMar/0047.html

[02:24:02.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, people are shipping/implementing progress events though

[02:24:03.0000] <annevk>
hmm ok

[02:24:04.0000] <zcorpan_>
Lachy: http://www.w3.org/mid/Pine.LNX.4.62.0901312117510.14270⊙hdc

[02:25:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
jgraham: ok

[02:26:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: not my fault people are shipping specs that aren't even in LC yet :-)

[02:26:01.0000] <Lachy>
zcorpan_, oh, yeah. That's the one where Hixie was pointing out that "the algorithm is likely going to support far fewer table types  without attributes [than smart headers]"

[02:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: progress events will hopefully change quite a bit, so those impls will have to change anyway

[02:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: for example, progress events seems to imply that 'load' should include the information you say is problematic, but 'load' is fired for <img>, e.g.

[02:31:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Lachy: i thought he meant "[than the previous algorithm in the spec]"

[02:31:01.0000] <Hixie>
i meant hte latter, but the former is true also

[02:33:00.0000] <jgraham>
I wonder how useful it is that the accessibility things distinguish between row and column headers. Does aria account for this?

[02:34:00.0000] <jgraham>
Or is HTML expected to apply the same magic to aria attributes as it does to @headers?

[02:34:01.0000] <Hixie>
i don't think that the algorithm not handling this table is a big deal

[02:34:02.0000] <Hixie>
real tables don't look like this usually

[02:34:03.0000] <Hixie>
and when they do, going both ways is almost always wrong

[02:34:04.0000] <Hixie>
iirc

[02:36:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, ta

[02:36:01.0000] <Hixie>
np

[02:42:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/revision.dat didn't get updated with the last 2 checkins. Current revision is 2735, but that still says 2733

[02:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah, that happens when twitter fails

[02:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
i guess i should ignore twitter errors

[02:43:02.0000] <Hixie>
/me moves things around

[02:43:03.0000] <Hixie>
should work next time

[02:46:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, 10.2 Hidden Elements: this Selector is missing a comma after audio:not(...) [hidden], area, audio:not([controls]) base, basefont,

[02:46:01.0000] <hsivonen>
wow. twitter as a system integration platform

[02:46:02.0000] <Hixie>
thx

[02:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
so uh

[02:48:01.0000] <Hixie>
can anyone think of a way of doing http://damowmow.com/temp/sectioning.css that won't get me shot by the browser vendors

[02:48:02.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, rather than givign @namespace for all CSS, wouldn't it be easier to just say that the namespace applies to all CSS in this section?

[02:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: it would be easier, yes, but being explicit seems safer

[02:50:00.0000] <Lachy>
ok

[02:50:01.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, except that merging all the CSS snippets would not result in a valid style sheet currently

[02:51:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, though I suppose that cannot be done anyway given that quirks is also listed throughout

[02:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
if anyone tries to merge them, they're going to have far bigger problems than that

[02:52:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: h1:outline-depth(n)

[02:52:01.0000] <Hixie>
a way that doesn't involve waiting longer than 2022 would be ideal

[02:52:02.0000] <annevk>
yeah, the only way forward there is some optimized selector I think

[02:53:00.0000] <annevk>
can't we get the CSS WG to approve of a vocabulary specific selector?

[02:54:00.0000] <Hixie>
q.v. my earlier remark regarding 2022 as a deadline

[02:54:01.0000] <annevk>
btw, why would you ever want the h1 to be smaller than the rest of the text?

[02:55:00.0000] <Lachy>
annevk, we'd hav a much greater chance of getting the CSSWG to accept any selectors if we can find a way to help push CSS3 Selectors to REC, ASAP

[02:55:01.0000] <Hixie>
(selectors has been "done" since 2001, and has had interoperable implementations for at least a year, and it is still not in PR, so i'm not holding my breath)

[02:55:02.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: the sizes are just h2-h6

[02:55:03.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: it's not vocabulary-specific if it is abstacted like class selectors such that a vocabulary gets to define how it hooks to the selector

[02:56:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, there are still some minor interop issues with ::selection. But most of the rest is largely interoperable

[02:56:01.0000] <jgraham>
Of course if the CSSWG are dysfunctional to the extent that they are blocking us, we should fix the CSSWG not try to route around them

[02:56:02.0000] <hsivonen>
/me has a hard time remembering when to use : and when ::

[02:57:00.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: : = class-like things, :: = element-like things

[02:57:01.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, that would work too

[02:57:02.0000] <Lachy>
hsivonen, how is that hard? I find the differece between pseudo-elements and -classes easy

[02:57:03.0000] <hsivonen>
is WebApps considered functional?

[02:57:04.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: so : = actual elements, :: = things not actually in the DOM

[02:58:00.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, I think it is

[02:58:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: I can understand the distiction--I can't remember which takes two colons

[02:58:02.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: cool

[02:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
so uh, why can't my web server resolve twitter.com in dns

[02:59:01.0000] <hsivonen>
so I should remember that :: is less real than :

[02:59:02.0000] <annevk>
or : is closer to . than ::

[03:01:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Lachy: i'd suggest renaming the section to "Getting started with HTML" since you can "get started with HTML5" if you already know html4 but the section is targetted at beginners

[03:02:00.0000] <Lachy>
zcorpan_, send mail to public-html

[03:03:00.0000] <Lachy>
zcorpan_, I'm trying to stimulate some actual productive discussion about it on the list, but so far it has resulted in an off-list mail and people pinging me on IRC.

[03:04:00.0000] <Lachy>
also, I'm not working on the guide today, so the mail will make sure I remember

[03:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me standardises <blink>

[03:28:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, sometimes you include a blank line after @namespace and other times you don't. Please be consistent.

[03:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
i include it when there is more than one block of text in the css block

[03:30:00.0000] <Lachy>
ok

[03:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
the rendering section's table of contents is oddly bell-shaped

[03:46:00.0000] <annevk>
"The fgColor attribute on the Document object must reflect the text attribute on the body element." does not say what should happen when there is no body element

[03:46:01.0000] <annevk>
the same might be true for <body onload> when there is no Window object, come to think of it

[03:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
the obsolete features section is scheduled for april/may

[03:48:01.0000] <Hixie>
the body.onload thing is a good point; file a bug?

[03:48:02.0000] <Hixie>
i'm going to bed now

[03:48:03.0000] <Hixie>
nn

[03:48:04.0000] <Hixie>
and thanks

[03:49:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: what's the browser implementor interest status of <datagrid>?

[03:49:01.0000] <annevk>
sure, nn

[03:49:02.0000] <hsivonen>
oh, nn

[03:51:00.0000] <annevk>
afaict there was only interest from a Chrome guy

[03:52:00.0000] <annevk>
but they're not working on their rendering engine that much (other than porting) so...

[03:52:01.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: Chrome interest would be understandable considering that the widget seems very applicable to Gmail

[04:02:00.0000] <annevk>
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html first block lacks a line break after @namespace

[04:02:01.0000] <annevk>
same for the last

[04:02:02.0000] <annevk>
and the penultimate

[04:04:00.0000] <annevk>
or is that some rendering bug in Opera? hmm

[04:04:01.0000] <Lachy>
annevk, I pointed out the same issue. <Hixie> i include it when there is more than one block of text in the css block

[04:05:00.0000] <annevk>
Lachy, no, that's a different issue

[04:05:01.0000] <annevk>
or a non-issue, as it happens :)

[04:08:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me would prefer a consistent line break after the @namespace because it it non-trivial to deduce what the rule is

[04:09:00.0000] <Lachy>
annevk, how is it a different issue?

[04:09:01.0000] <annevk>
Lachy, what I encounter is a rendering issue in Opera

[04:09:02.0000] <annevk>
Lachy, what you encounter is a source code thingy

[04:10:00.0000] <Lachy>
oh, Opera bug

[04:11:00.0000] <Lachy>
annevk, do you want to file a bug and CC moose and I about it?

[04:13:00.0000] <annevk>
sure

[04:15:00.0000] <annevk>
done

[04:17:00.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, ah, requiring NFC from content is another nice trick :)

[04:17:01.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, I quite strongly agree that keeping identifier comparison as simple as possible is a good thing

[04:18:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: CharmodNorm FTW!

[04:23:00.0000] <hsivonen>
http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/07/06/nfc

[04:24:00.0000] <annevk>
I remember it took me quite a while before I understood that post

[04:24:01.0000] <annevk>
It was also the first time I heard of the problem

[06:05:00.0000] <takkaria>
Hixie: 10.3.5, the rule for h2 gives a smaller font size than that for h1

[06:07:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Who here uses Anolis?

[06:11:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: HTML 5 itself assumes 10.4.1 does not apply

[06:13:00.0000] <annevk>
I want to use Anolis once the serializer is more friendly and W3C specgen like

[06:23:00.0000] <Lachy>
gsnedders, I do

[06:23:01.0000] <Lachy>
annevk, anolis has the --w3c-compat options

[06:24:00.0000] <Lachy>
AFAIK, it's just missing the biblio stuff

[06:24:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me guesses annevk means things like biblio and indexing

[06:24:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Lachy: And other things

[06:25:00.0000] <Lachy>
yeah, lack of biblio is annoying. Though I'm using it successfully for the HTML5 Reference, and it works really well

[06:30:00.0000] <rubys1>
Lachy: ping?

[06:32:00.0000] <jgraham>
annevk: I have a WIP of the updated online interface for anolis at home

[06:32:01.0000] <jgraham>
But I don't quite know how to sanely deal with the fact that there are two forms and dozens of controls that should apply to both

[06:33:00.0000] <Lachy>
rubys, pong

[06:33:01.0000] <jgraham>
WWithout just copying the controls or requiring js

[06:33:02.0000] <rubys>
It generally is considered rather rude and a significant violation of  Netiquitte to publish a private reply in a more public forum. 

[06:33:03.0000] <rubys>
Had you asked, I would have given permission. 

[06:33:04.0000] <Lachy>
rubys, I figured since it was a process issue, you wouldn't mind

[06:34:00.0000] <Lachy>
and also because the discussion was related to replying publicly, to which you said +1

[06:34:01.0000] <rubys>
regarding "number of people who support an idea": if a person makes a solid argument and the editor agrees and nobody  disagrees, then you are right: no additional support needs to be expressed. 

[06:34:02.0000] <rubys>
If a person makes a sold argument and the editor disagrees is where it  gets interesting.  One special case that I want to dispose of quickly,  however.  That is when that one person either can't find anybody to  support the argument, or can only find people in their own organization  to do so. 

[06:36:00.0000] <Lachy>
if a person can't find any support, except from their own organisation, then it's unlikely that they have made a solid argument

[06:37:00.0000] <rubys>
There is no absolute scale upon which arguments can be measured.

[06:38:00.0000] <rubys>
HTML5 is largely based not on what is "right", but on what "works".  Multiple things could possibly work, and reasonable people can disagree as to which is best.

[06:39:00.0000] <rubys>
On such matters, I tend to defer to the editor when the matter is one of personal taste.

[06:40:00.0000] <Lachy>
agreed

[06:40:01.0000] <rubys>
the thing we need to collectively find a way to address is one where people feel disenfranchised because they are not given an opportunity to be heard.

[06:42:00.0000] <Lachy>
I'm not sure how to address that. People just need to learn that some times their ideas are rejected, no matter how passionately they feel about them. Those who feel disenfranchised are not alone in that respect. It's just that those of us who don't feel disenfranchsed know how to accept and move on

[06:42:01.0000] <rubys>
Apparently that's what David Dailey feels.  And an answer that can be interpreted as you intend to be the sole judge of merit base on your own standards of technical worth reinforces that concern.

[06:43:00.0000] <jgraham>
Does anyone know off hand where unicode defines the mapping between char+combining char into single NFC char (for some appropriate definition of char)

[06:43:01.0000] <Lachy>
well, I remain concerned about the ability of concensus based approaches to do any better, and so I'm hesitant to adopt that method

[06:43:02.0000] <Lachy>
jgraham, http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr15/tr15-25.html

[06:45:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: It's all in the UCD

[06:45:01.0000] <rubys>
Ian didn't pick a new DOCTYPE based on consensus.  In fact, he explicitly ignored one of your concerns.  But I am very happy with the process that that decision was made.

[06:46:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: So there is no unique table that says codepoint x + codepoint y maps to codepoint z under NFC?

[06:46:01.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: AFAIK no

[06:46:02.0000] <rubys>
Mark Davis would know, and tends to be very responsive.

[06:47:00.0000] <Lachy>
rubys, I'm aware that Hixie ignored one of my concerns. But I trust Hixie to have evaulated and weighed up all concerns, and I accept his decision.

[06:47:01.0000] <rubys>
You've built that trust up over time.  Not everybody yet has that perspective.

[06:48:00.0000] <annevk>
gsnedders, I mean pretty source code, mostly :)

[06:48:01.0000] <annevk>
gsnedders, though a good solution to biblio would be neat, one based on a wiki or some such

[06:48:02.0000] <gsnedders>
annevk: That's not an Anolis-level issue :)

[06:48:03.0000] <rubys>
Anyway, my point is that it is not a binary point about consensus vs dictator.  

[06:48:04.0000] <annevk>
gsnedders, it affects me though :)

[06:48:05.0000] <Lachy>
well, with this issue, given that my concern was only minor, making such fuss about this one would detract from more important issues

[06:48:06.0000] <gsnedders>
annevk: Fussy boy :)

[06:49:00.0000] <rubys>
Lachy, I'm sorry, which issue are you talking about?  DOCTYPE or David's?  If the former, I agree.  If the latter, I disagree.

[06:50:00.0000] <Lachy>
DOCTYPE

[06:50:01.0000] <jgraham>
It seems that not everyone thinks that the term "benevolant dictator' has positive connotations

[06:50:02.0000] <rubys>
jgraham: bingo

[06:51:00.0000] <hsivonen>
we really should avoid 'dictator' and talk about 'strong editor model' or something

[06:51:01.0000] <rubys>
I am to get people who raise objections to realize that they are either alone or truly are describing a matter of taste whenever possible.

[06:51:02.0000] <jgraham>
rubys: I guess I shouldn't make it sound like news since it has been known about for some time. 

[06:51:03.0000] <jgraham>
Like forever

[06:51:04.0000] <Lachy>
hsivonen, "benevolent arbiter"

[06:52:00.0000] <rubys>
strike benevolent

[06:52:01.0000] <Lachy>
why? It only has good connotations

[06:52:02.0000] <rubys>
only if it is accurate

[06:53:00.0000] <Lachy>
?

[06:53:01.0000] <rubys>
Ian is as opinionated and biased as the rest of us.  In some ways more so.  He also is immensely talented and reasonable.

[06:53:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: the whatwg model isn't counting on Hixie being benevolent. it counts on keeping Hixie in check by the threat of withdrawing implementor participation

[06:55:00.0000] <jgraham>
(This is not, in practice so different from the Python model which allows for the possibility of forking if Guido turns bad)

[06:57:00.0000] <Lachy>
As I pointed out yesterday, some people involved with HTML4all has sort of forked the spec, which should turn out to be a good thing in the long run

[06:57:01.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligopoly ?

[06:58:00.0000] <annevk>
/me shrugs

[06:58:01.0000] <Lachy>
since we can review their work on the forked spec and incorporate any good changes

[06:59:00.0000] <rubys>
I also claim that the WHATWG model also provides ample excuse for one significant vendor to not participate.  That concerns me greatly.  Not that they would participate anyway, but that they have a convenient excuse provided for them.

[06:59:01.0000] <Lachy>
rubys, I think the only reason Microsoft doesn't participate is the lack of patent policy

[06:59:02.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: I'm not implying that. I mean that Hixie is not interested in writing fiction.

[07:00:00.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: That is clearly untrue

[07:00:01.0000] <Lachy>
jgraham, how so?

[07:00:02.0000] <Lachy>
I recall Chris Wilson saying something to that effect before

[07:00:03.0000] <hsivonen>
rubys: having a patent policy and having an editor with latitude kept in check by the possibility of implementors getting angry are not mutually exclusive

[07:00:04.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: Microsoft have effective participated in neither HTMLWG or WHATWG and what participation has occured has been split roughly equally amongst both

[07:01:00.0000] <rubys>
Lachy: s/only reason/one reason/

[07:01:01.0000] <Lachy>
rubys, other reasons?

[07:01:02.0000] <annevk>
jgraham, they participated in the WHATWG?

[07:02:00.0000] <rubys>
Lachy: has MSFT participated in any great extent in the W3C working group?  If not, it must be for reasons other than patent policy.

[07:02:01.0000] <jgraham>
annevk: 5 messages

[07:02:02.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, whether or not you imply that, it seems pretty accurate; not sure whether it's good or bad though, the Web is quite different from market economy

[07:02:03.0000] <annevk>
jgraham, oh, didn't know

[07:02:04.0000] <Lachy>
I only counted 4. Maybe I'm missing one

[07:03:00.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: presumably they don't see the business value in participating

[07:03:01.0000] <rubys>
hsivonen: agreed, but I don't believe I said otherwise.  Having an editor latitude kept in check is a good thing, and implementors getting angry is one possible way to partially address that.

[07:04:00.0000] <rubys>
/me bows in jgraham's general direction

[07:06:00.0000] <Lachy>
rubys, although the implementer threat works for the whatwg, there are people who tend not to care much for implementers and would prefer authors have more influence, even at the expence of implementers

[07:06:01.0000] <Lachy>
*expense

[07:06:02.0000] <rubys>
It is not a zero sum game.

[07:07:00.0000] <rubys>
Author's clearly ran amok for a number of years at the W3C.  A redressing of the imbalance was appropriate.  Now we need to find a happy middle.

[07:10:00.0000] <jgraham>
It is worth noting that it is a constrained optimisation problem. If you try to make implementors do things they don't want to do --- because they are too complex or because users wouldn't like them, for example --- they will stop playing ball. If you ask authors to jump through unreasonable hoops they will use a differnt format instead.

[07:11:00.0000] <hsivonen>
too bad authors too often miss that it's not zero-sum. particularly, without browser vendor participation, there's no platform to deploy new content features on

[07:13:00.0000] <rubys>
too bad implementers often miss that it's not zero-sum.  Particularly, without user participation, there's platforms designed to deploy new content features on simply go unused.

[07:15:00.0000] <jgraham>
rubys: I had difficulty understanding your second sentence

[07:15:01.0000] <rubys>
yea, I typed it so fast, it hardly was intelligible.

[07:16:00.0000] <rubys>
hsivonen's statement is equally true from the other perspective.  I've seen many platforms designed with a "if you build it, they will come" perspective.

[07:16:01.0000] <hsivonen>
rubys: has that been a problem in practice? what platforms have gone unused due to lack of user participation?

[07:16:02.0000] <Philip`>
If implementors add a feature that 1% of authors want to use, it's a pretty successful feature; if authors request a feature that 1% of implementors want to implement, it's useless to everybody

[07:16:03.0000] <rubys>
To avoid any sacred cows here, I'll pick something safe: Hailstorm.

[07:17:00.0000] <hsivonen>
rubys: I meant features of the interoperable Web runtime platform

[07:17:01.0000] <Lachy>
rubys, implementers do realise that it's not a zero-sum game, and in many cases, we explicitly do look at what authors use and don't use

[07:17:02.0000] <Lachy>
and what they don't, we cut from the spec

[07:17:03.0000] <hsivonen>
rubys: it seems to me that features are generally unused because they haven't been implemented in all significant runtimes

[07:17:04.0000] <hsivonen>
rubys: rather than because users rejected them

[07:17:05.0000] <rubys>
Some people apply that loosely, others more tightly.  Take for example this perspective: http://blog.mozilla.com/rob-sayre/2009/02/01/conventional-wisdom/

[07:20:00.0000] <Lachy>
The spec itself isn't a great place for innovation, although it does happen occasionally. Most of the innovation comes from browser vendors who then present their innovations to be specced

[07:21:00.0000] <Lachy>
this is most clearly demonstrated by canavs, video, <input placeholder="">, .innerHTML, etc.

[07:21:01.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: There are features that have been interoperably implemented in the browsers used by 95% of the market, and many have been successful but many others appear to be effectively unused on the public web

[07:21:02.0000] <rubys>
Lachy: I agree with the fourth example in that lst.

[07:21:03.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: e.g. IE's <table datasrc> stuff

[07:22:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: has datasrc been implemented in anywhere but IE?

[07:23:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: No, but it's been available in the browsers used by 95% of the market, and lots of people were happy to write pages solely for that subset of the market

[07:23:01.0000] <Lachy>
rubys, what about the other 3?

[07:23:02.0000] <annevk>
Lachy, <canvas> and <video> have changed quite a bit by WHATWG input

[07:23:03.0000] <jgraham>
rubys: Of course leaving the platform much more static (which seems to be what rsayre wants) has its share of problems. Notably that people start to view you as "damage" that must be worked around by e.g. using Flash or Silverlight

[07:23:04.0000] <annevk>
placeholder="" only has a single impl

[07:24:00.0000] <rubys>
jgraham: be careful when you read motivation into people

[07:25:00.0000] <rubys>
Something I have said many times: I'd love to see something smaller get to CR status in 2010; and leave the rest to defend for itself.  I don't see anything in rsayre's message that differs from that vision.

[07:25:01.0000] <jgraham>
rubys: I don't think I was reading motivation (motivation would be "I want HTML to be static so flash usage increases" or somesuch). I agree it is possible that I misinterpreted his position.

[07:25:02.0000] <Lachy>
annevk, that doesn't change the fact that the initial innovation occurred outside of the spec. It's just that the spec is good at refining, not innovating

[07:26:00.0000] <rubys>
"seems to be what rsayre wants".  It could be that he simply doesn

[07:26:01.0000] <rubys>
't want to wait for a CR in 2012.

[07:27:00.0000] <jgraham>
It could be. I'm still not sure why people focus so much on dates for spec transitions when the only real quantity is "when is this implemented in the UAs I care about so I can use it"

[07:28:00.0000] <Philip`>
rubys: Point 7 on http://blog.mozilla.com/rob-sayre/2009/01/19/where-memes-go-to-die/ sounds like he's concerned with issues other than the timetable for the spec

[07:28:01.0000] <rubys>
Anyway, I've said what I wanted to say, namely that violating the expectations of private email is bad form, and setting up a dictatorial process, allegedly benevolent or otherwise, is counter to the goal of soliciting any and all input.

[07:29:00.0000] <rubys>
Philip`: agreed, but that doesn't mean that he's for a more static platform.

[07:29:01.0000] <BenMillard>
Hixie, I've replied to that table example on Public-HTML.

[07:30:00.0000] <rubys>
For all I know, it could mean that; I've only met him a few times (he worked on Atom prior to joining Moz); I just wouldn't jump to that conclusion.

[07:31:00.0000] <karlcow>
jgraham: cf dates: some of the things are not visibly implemented but some groups do care about them. For example a blockquote. The meaning of it has no concrete implementation in browsers (except the block nature) but the semantics matter outside of the browser world.

[07:33:00.0000] <annevk>
karlcow, <time> doesn't matter for browsers either

[07:33:01.0000] <annevk>
karlcow, and <section> etc. don't matter much to us either

[07:34:00.0000] <karlcow>
annevk: indeed, yes same example

[07:36:00.0000] <jgraham>
annevk: Actually <time> and <section> improve a lot with some implementation love

[07:53:00.0000] <annevk>
so it seems the i18n guys are arguing for doing Unicode Normalization while comparing strings

[07:53:01.0000] <annevk>
ouch

[07:53:02.0000] <gsnedders>
annevk: What form of Normalization?

[07:54:00.0000] <annevk>
a form, though NFC has been suggested

[07:54:01.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: i think <layer> doesn't need display:block

[07:54:02.0000] <gsnedders>
NFK[CD] and NF[CD] would have different results

[07:54:03.0000] <annevk>
/me thinks the rendering section should be normative for a very specific class of UAs

[07:54:04.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: nor <multicol>

[07:55:00.0000] <rubys>
annevk: the Mac is notorious for using NFD whereas NFC is commonplace everywhere else.

[07:56:00.0000] <rubys>
annevk: do you have access to a mac with Apache?

[07:56:01.0000] <annevk>
yeah, they mentioned that

[07:56:02.0000] <annevk>
not right now

[07:56:03.0000] <annevk>
actually, lets make that "no"

[07:56:04.0000] <gsnedders>
/me does

[07:57:00.0000] <annevk>
zcorpan, I wonder how Hixie arrived at <layer>

[07:57:01.0000] <rubys>
Create a file with an accented character in your sites directory

[07:57:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Yeah, it'll be NFD

[07:57:03.0000] <annevk>
aren't IRIs NFC?

[07:58:00.0000] <gsnedders>
annevk: Not always

[07:58:01.0000] <gsnedders>
rubys: What do you want to see?

[07:58:02.0000] <rubys>
if somebody copy/pastes a URI with an accented character into a browser on windows or ubuntu, they won't be able to access your file on the mac.

[07:58:03.0000] <rubys>
I have access to a mac, I just wanted to demonstrate the problem.

[07:59:00.0000] <annevk>
gsnedders, it seems that if it's not NFC it's not a IRI

[07:59:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Hmm

[07:59:02.0000] <annevk>
oh no

[07:59:03.0000] <annevk>
you're right

[07:59:04.0000] <gsnedders>
If I request using pct-encoding of the NFC form it still works

[07:59:05.0000] <rubys>
gsnedders: that's not been my experience

[08:02:00.0000] <karlcow>
/me has apache running on my mac

[08:05:00.0000] <rubys>
karlcow: cd ~/Sites; mkdir foo; cd foo; touch Señor

[08:05:01.0000] <karlcow>
http://la-grange.net/2009/02/02/love-é-愛.txt

[08:05:02.0000] <karlcow>
and it is working in local 

[08:06:00.0000] <rubys>
it appears to be working, but view source

[08:06:01.0000] <rubys>
I get href="Sen%cc%83or"

[08:07:00.0000] <karlcow>
working in Opera 10 alpha at least

[08:07:01.0000] <karlcow>
testing with others

[08:08:00.0000] <rubys>
repeating on Ubuntu, I get href="Se%c3%b1or"

[08:09:00.0000] <rubys>
karlcow: are you doing all of your testing on mac?

[08:09:01.0000] <karlcow>
the difference between Opera and Safari. Safari displays at the top of the window the right characters and opera displays http://lagrange.test.site/2009/02/02/love-e%CC%81-%E6%84%9B.txt

[08:09:02.0000] <karlcow>
rubys: yes :) 

[08:09:03.0000] <rubys>
karlcow: ok, you have successfully demonstrated that the mac interoperates successfully with the mac.  Congrats.  :-)

[08:10:00.0000] <karlcow>
;)

[08:11:00.0000] <karlcow>
firefox http://lagrange.test.site/2009/02/02/love-e%CC%81-%E6%84%9B.txt

[08:12:00.0000] <rubys>
the key here is that there are multiple ways to encode the e with a combining accent character.

[08:14:00.0000] <karlcow>
the way I do on my keyboard is typing the accent and the e because I'm on a Japanese keyboard.

[08:14:01.0000] <karlcow>
hmm I should switch to the French keyboard to see if there is any difference

[08:14:02.0000] <rubys>
no, it is more fundamental than that.

[08:14:03.0000] <rubys>
you have multiple ways to enter the same character, but there are multiple ways to encode that same character

[08:17:00.0000] <karlcow>
hmmm yep doesn't change anything

[08:17:01.0000] <rubys>
e with a combining accent is %CC%81 on mac, and %C3%A9 in utf-8.

[08:18:00.0000] <rubys>
utf-8 NFC that is.

[08:19:00.0000] <karlcow>
if  I type manually on the mac the two %C3%A9 and %CC%81, I get back é

[08:19:01.0000] <karlcow>
(in the uri field)

[08:19:02.0000] <karlcow>
and the right content of the file

[08:20:00.0000] <ap>
%CC%81 is just the combining accent (U+0301 COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT)

[08:21:00.0000] <ap>
"e%CC%81" is LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE in decomposed form

[08:22:00.0000] <rubys>
ap: oops, you are correct.  I dropped the e.

[08:26:00.0000] <Philip`>
OS X converts text to NFD (or NFC or whichever it is) before rendering it, which confused me when I was playing with fonts and expected it to use the glyphs for each codepoint of my original text, and actually it tried using totally new codepoints instead

[08:27:00.0000] <jgraham>
Are combing characters actually necessary or are they just an unfortunate artefact of old coding systems? That is is it possible to represent any string without using any combing characters at all?

[08:27:01.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: There are plenty of things that can't be

[08:27:02.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: I thought that would be the case :(

[08:28:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: What is "any string"?

[08:28:01.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Would e.g. '@' with an acute accent be a string you'd want to be representable?

[08:29:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: I knew someone would ask that and I had odds on that it would be you

[08:29:01.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: No. I mean sequences of glyphs that are actually used in human languages and maybe mathematics

[08:30:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me just took the definition of "any" to mean "any"

[08:30:01.0000] <jgraham>
Yes, sorry I was rather inprecise

[08:31:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: I expect Vietnamese like http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/fig4a.gif is done using combining characters, and it would be impractical to have a separate codepoint for every possible combination of base+marks

[08:31:01.0000] <karlcow>
I guess the dot for Japanese characters

[08:32:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: Ah, that is exactly the answer to the question that I was really trying to ask

[08:32:01.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Whoops, that was an accident, I never intended to actually answer your question :-(

[08:33:00.0000] <jgraham>
So it seems like if you could keep only one normalisation it would have to be NFD and everything else would be char+combing char

[08:33:01.0000] <ap>
jgraham: that's what Unicode recommends

[08:33:02.0000] <ap>
sadly, it's not possible to achieve on the Web

[08:34:00.0000] <jgraham>
ap: Sure, I was talking hypothetically about the design choice that you would make with hindsight

[08:35:00.0000] <rubys>
it would bloat a lot of common use cases for latin-1 characters

[08:35:01.0000] <jgraham>
The fact that Unicode is messy indicates that it is useful

[08:36:00.0000] <ap>
rubys: relatively few people use latin-1 characters

[08:36:01.0000] <karlcow>
I wonder if the bōten is part of the composed characters issue or something different

[08:37:00.0000] <rubys>
ap: ?  ... spanish, french, etc are all full of charcters with tilde's and combining acents.

[08:37:01.0000] <jgraham>
/me wonders what name people give to the strong version of the "worse is better" philosophy; that it is not possible for systems to be successful without having characteristics that are different from the solution that would, with hindsight, have been ideal

[08:37:02.0000] <ap>
rubys: what about Chinese, Japanese, Russian, Indic languages, Arabic...

[08:38:00.0000] <karlcow>
http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/ is a cool document

[08:38:01.0000] <jgraham>
s/ideal/better/ perhaps

[08:39:00.0000] <rubys>
karlcow: got python?

[08:41:00.0000] <rubys>
import unicodedata

[08:41:01.0000] <karlcow>
http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/#en-subheading2_3_9 emphasis dot

[08:41:02.0000] <karlcow>
rubys: yes

[08:41:03.0000] <rubys>
print repr(unicodedata.normalize('NFC', u'ō').encode('utf-8'))

[08:41:04.0000] <rubys>
print repr(unicodedata.normalize('NFD', u'ō').encode('utf-8'))

[08:42:00.0000] <rubys>
The results are '\xc5\x8d' and 'o\xcc\x84' respectively.

[08:45:00.0000] <karlcow>
indeed. :) cool thanks

[08:46:00.0000] <karlcow>
had to put in my python file # -*- coding: utf-8 -*-

[08:46:01.0000] <jgraham>
karlcow: Although if you start messing about with python+non BMP characters+normalisation, things could get very confusing fast

[08:47:00.0000] <jgraham>
(python can't decide if characters are 16bit or 32bit which causes observable brokenness)

[08:47:01.0000] <jgraham>
(in some cases)

[08:56:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: No, Python can decide whether. It's just a compile time option.

[08:56:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Which makes me want to stab it.

[08:57:00.0000] <karlcow>
stabbing a python that is not nice of you

[08:58:00.0000] <hallvors>
feedback (primarily from browser developers) on http://testsuites.opera.com/script-execution/ welcome ..

[09:07:00.0000] <ehird>
HTML5 obligates dates to use a hyphen (-). But more correct would be the figure dash (‒). What should I do?

[09:07:01.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: A compile time option meets my definition of "can't decide".

[09:08:00.0000] <gsnedders>
:)

[09:08:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Anolis has some rather horrible code for the one time when it cares about codepoints above U+FFFF

[09:09:00.0000] <ehird>
?

[09:11:00.0000] <jgraham>
ehird: Either complain to Hixie and get it fixed or worry less about typography :)

[09:12:00.0000] <jgraham>
(seriously mail whatwg⊙wo; you'll need to subscribe to the list first)

[09:12:01.0000] <ehird>
jgraham: I understand the words "worry", "less", "about" and "typography" but the combination you have put them in simply does not parse in my mind ;-)

[09:12:02.0000] <ehird>
And OK, I'll do that

[09:12:03.0000] <ehird>
thanks :)

[09:15:00.0000] <gsnedders>
ehird: Off hand we use a hyphen because ISO 8601 does

[09:15:01.0000] <ehird>
gsnedders: Mm, makes sense, just would be nice to lax it a bit to, say, "any dash"

[09:16:00.0000] <gsnedders>
ehird: I'd say that's too lax

[09:16:01.0000] <jgraham>
ehird: Presumably "any" doesn't include ┋

[09:16:02.0000] <jgraham>
for example

[09:16:03.0000] <ehird>
ok then - hyphen, e[mn]dash and figure dash?

[09:16:04.0000] <ehird>
:)

[09:17:00.0000] <ehird>
jgraham: It is 2009┋02┋02.

[09:17:01.0000] <gsnedders>
ehird: Why would we want to allow e[mn] dash, though?

[09:17:02.0000] <ehird>
Doesn't look that bad, actually. :P

[09:17:03.0000] <ehird>
gsnedders: En dash is more well supported than figure dash, and generally looks identical

[09:17:04.0000] <ehird>
em dash probably isn't worth it, though

[09:19:00.0000] <jgraham>
I totally want to write 2009⤐02⥭02

[09:20:00.0000] <ehird>
Really, I'd just go for something like <date iso="2009-02-02">THINE SECOND DAY OF THINE SECOND MONTH (FEB-RU-ARY) OF THINE YEAR 2 0 0 9</date>

[09:22:00.0000] <jcranmer>
2009•02·02?

[09:25:00.0000] <jgraham>
jcranmer: What are these dots that you use?

[09:25:01.0000] <jgraham>
We only support dashes here

[09:25:02.0000] <gsnedders>
ehird: s/iso/datetime/

[09:25:03.0000] <ehird>
gsnedders: Oh, that exists?

[09:25:04.0000] <gsnedders>
ehird: yeah

[09:26:00.0000] <ehird>
Well then, I'll just use that.

[09:27:00.0000] <jgraham>
ehird: If your use case is the <time> element, you can always specify a datetime attribute with hyphens and have the text content be anything you like

[09:27:01.0000] <ehird>
There used to be a <date> element, was that renamed to time?

[09:28:00.0000] <gsnedders>
ehird: No

[09:29:00.0000] <ehird>
Okay, so it's still <date>. Does that have datetime too?

[09:29:01.0000] <gsnedders>
ehird: I mean, there never was a date

[09:29:02.0000] <ehird>
huh, okay

[09:29:03.0000] <ehird>
/me 's memory is going ;)

[09:30:00.0000] <gsnedders>
ehird: Why do you want a date element?

[09:30:01.0000] <ehird>
I don't

[09:30:02.0000] <ehird>
I just recall there being one

[09:30:03.0000] <gsnedders>
:P

[09:31:00.0000] <gsnedders>
ehird: There's dc:date, but no other element with "date" as a localname off-hand

[09:31:01.0000] <ehird>
OK :)

[09:47:00.0000] <karlcow>
ehird: you could do with <html xmlns:event="http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal#">

[09:47:01.0000] <karlcow>
<p>Karl will be away for lunch time today from 

[09:47:02.0000] <karlcow>
<span property="event:dtstart" 

[09:47:03.0000] <karlcow>
      content="2009-02-02T13:00:00">1pm</span>

[09:47:04.0000] <karlcow>
to 

[09:47:05.0000] <karlcow>
<span property="event:dtend" 

[09:47:06.0000] <karlcow>
      content="2009-02-02T14:00:00">2pm.</span></p>

[09:48:00.0000] <ehird>
:-)

[09:48:01.0000] <karlcow>
/me makes it effective now in fact :)

[10:15:00.0000] <krijnh>
For those into statistics: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/activity/whatwg/

[10:19:00.0000] <Philip`>
krijnh: That doesn't work so well for me

[10:19:01.0000] <Philip`>
in Opera 9.6

[10:19:02.0000] <Philip`>
(All the bars are about square, except for 200805 which is wider than the screen)

[10:26:00.0000] <krijnh>
Philip`: same here

[10:26:01.0000] <krijnh>
Especially for us Opera users there are numbers :)

[10:26:02.0000] <ehird>
works for me

[11:14:00.0000] <hsivonen>
the mac URI thing isn't a mac or linux problem per se. It's a problem of Apache letting a byte-orieted API leak to where users now expect characters

[11:17:00.0000] <rubys>
True to a point... in pretty much the same way that a statement that CSRF is not a security issue for the web, but is a problem in the browsers.

[11:59:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
/me wonders why opera removes a line break after @namespace ...; in the rendering

[12:46:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Civ2 is an awesome game.

[12:46:01.0000] <jcranmer>
I've only played Civ3

[12:47:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Civ2 is a lot better.

[13:13:00.0000] <yorick>
I'd like the offline web applications to have a dynamic whitelist

[13:15:00.0000] <yorick>
or just to access online stuff when online

[13:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
takkaria: i don't understand what you mean about 10.3.5. gsnedders: i don't understand what you mean by 10.4.1.

[13:29:00.0000] <gsnedders>
:D

[13:29:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: 10.4.1 says that LF within @title must be rendered as a linebreak, no?

[13:29:02.0000] <gsnedders>
s/must/are expected to/

[13:31:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: Run //*[contains(@title, "\n")] on HTML 5

[13:34:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: Matches 266 elements!

[13:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh, yeah, i know

[13:36:01.0000] <Hixie>
i'm abusing title="" in html5

[13:36:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: http://pastebin.ca/1325718

[13:36:03.0000] <Hixie>
really i should use data-anolis-xref or some such

[13:39:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: And Anolis should probably support some such :)

[13:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[13:42:00.0000] <Hixie>
or just strip out the title=""s

[13:42:01.0000] <gsnedders>
That's not really nice though

[13:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
strip the line feeds? :-)

[13:44:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: But you might mean them!

[13:44:01.0000] <rubys>
Just checking, but undoubtedly you are familiar with how XML treats linefeeds in attribute values, right?

[13:44:02.0000] <Hixie>
gsnedders: i won't use title="" intentionally in the spec other than for xrefs

[13:44:03.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: I mean, what would xkcd be like without LF in @title!?

[13:44:04.0000] <Hixie>
rubys: yeah

[14:37:00.0000] <takkaria>
Hixie: 10.3.5 is rendering->simple defaults->fonts and colors

[14:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
right...?

[15:00:00.0000] <ehird>
http://ishtml5readyyet.com/ How ridiculously wrong. :P

[15:00:01.0000] <Hixie>
depends what you mean by "ready"

[15:00:02.0000] <ehird>
Well, I guess if you define "ready" as something other than "ready", it could be reasonable.

[15:02:00.0000] <Philip`>
Currently it's both ready and writey

[15:03:00.0000] <Hixie>
ehird: if by "ready" you mean "done, never to change again", then it's probably pretty accurate

[15:03:01.0000] <ehird>
That's "finished", not "ready", no?

[15:03:02.0000] <Hixie>
ehird: if by "ready" you mean "prepared for work to begin", then we're about 6 years past that point

[15:04:00.0000] <Hixie>
if you mean something in between, then, well, like i said. it depends on how you define "ready".

[15:04:01.0000] <ehird>
By "ready", I mean "heat death of the universe". :-)

[15:08:00.0000] <takkaria>
Hixie: http://rafb.net/p/OVlhvi87.html

[15:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
ooh.

[15:10:01.0000] <Hixie>
h2 is smaller than _h3_

[15:10:02.0000] <Hixie>
you said h1.

[15:10:03.0000] <Hixie>
hence my confusion.

[15:15:00.0000] <takkaria>
oh, sorry

[15:15:01.0000] <takkaria>
:)

[15:15:02.0000] <takkaria>
the keys are right next to each other :)

[15:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
fixed :-)

[15:16:01.0000] <Hixie>
(not regenned yet)


2009-02-03
[18:35:00.0000] <Hixie>
seems like css3 ruby can't describe html5 ruby (and IE ruby)

[18:35:01.0000] <Hixie>
:-(

[18:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
if anyone can come up with an ordering that makes sense for the subsections in 10.4 Self-contained features, let me know

[00:38:00.0000] <annevk>
hmm, CSS3 ruby can't describe HTML5 ruby? that'll give a rathole

[00:38:01.0000] <annevk>
apart from HTML5 ruby already being a potential rathole due to the existence of XHTML Ruby

[00:44:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Is it just me or do the Unicode folk have a pattern of first creating small and contained hacks that get accepted under the premise of not having a huge all-encompassing impact and then they point out interesting corner case interactions that would have huge impact if fully addressed?

[00:47:00.0000] <annevk>
it might be that since it is not their area they do not fully grasp the implications

[00:47:01.0000] <annevk>
if they do graps the implications however, the way they go around things is not really desirable

[00:48:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I mean, the Unicode was first sold as "just" expanding characters to 16 bits

[00:48:01.0000] <hsivonen>
and then later when you've expanded to 16 bits you are told that there are now surrogates and astral planes

[00:49:00.0000] <hsivonen>
and once you've dealt with astral planes, you are told that you need to perform normalization upon string compares

[00:50:00.0000] <hsivonen>
and the marginal benefit diminishes pretty significantly as the cost goes up

[00:50:01.0000] <annevk>
ooh, I thought you meant pointing out a small issue with Selectors that actually affects a whole lot more

[00:50:02.0000] <annevk>
to the extent that they even go asking consumers of the Selectors spec to point out the issue because Selectors has not changed yet

[00:51:00.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, I'm sure it could've been worse :)

[01:15:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me is increasingly unsure that preserving LF in @title is the right thing to do

[01:20:00.0000] <annevk>
/me is increasingly more sure it's the right thing to do

[01:23:00.0000] <jgraham>
annevk: Contrarian

[01:24:00.0000] <annevk>
jgraham, looking that up, I'm not sure there's coventional wisdom or a consensus opinion here :p

[01:26:00.0000] <jgraham>
annevk: Well I guess, under the assumption that the spec represents the majority opinion, I am the contrarian. 

[01:26:01.0000] <jgraham>
But still

[01:27:00.0000] <annevk>
rubys would slap you for that statement

[01:27:01.0000] <jgraham>
annevk: I know, that's why I said it :)

[01:28:00.0000] <annevk>
lastweekinhtml5 wannabe :p

[01:30:00.0000] <jgraham>
I donnu, if I was a lastweek wannabe, presumably I would have a poll for whether Hixie or MikeSmith smelt more like cheese or something.

[01:30:01.0000] <jgraham>
s/donnu/dunno/

[01:47:00.0000] <Hixie>
gecko has some really weird code

[01:47:01.0000] <Hixie>
like http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/html/content/src/nsHTMLSharedElement.cpp

[01:47:02.0000] <Hixie>
wtf is with all the <spacer> stuff

[01:54:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, they tried to have NN4 compat for a while

[01:56:00.0000] <Hixie>
apparently they didn't try very _hard_...

[02:06:00.0000] <annevk>
at some point IE compat became more important

[02:07:00.0000] <roc>
fortunately we didn't try that very hard either

[02:08:00.0000] <annevk>
:)

[02:15:00.0000] <fearphage>
i have a test case that i'm trying to make sure is valid. could i bother anyone with that?

[02:17:00.0000] <annevk>
you can try

[02:17:01.0000] <annevk>
just paste a link

[02:18:00.0000] <fearphage>
http://files.myopera.com/fearphage/static/bugs.htm

[02:18:01.0000] <fearphage>
the one test that is yellow

[02:18:02.0000] <fearphage>
seemingly it doesn't apply unless it is served as xml... i want to make sure that is a true statement

[02:19:00.0000] <fearphage>
it'd take work for me to split them but i can if you want

[02:20:00.0000] <fearphage>
view the source and search for svg:script

[02:20:01.0000] <fearphage>
actually, here is the xml version failing http://files.myopera.com/fearphage/static/tc/svg-script.xhtml

[02:21:00.0000] <annevk>
that bug is marked fixed internally

[02:22:00.0000] <fearphage>
ok, i just want to know if i can test it without serving it as xml. http://files.myopera.com/fearphage/static/bugs.xhtml <-- xml mimetype

[02:49:00.0000] <annevk>
fearphage, how about generating everything through script?

[02:50:00.0000] <fearphage>
come again?

[02:50:01.0000] <fearphage>
generating the entire test case from the script?

[02:52:00.0000] <annevk>
if you do not want to use XML but still need namespaces and all in text/html you need to use script

[02:53:00.0000] <fearphage>
interesting. i'll have to look intot that

[02:55:00.0000] <Hixie>
man this rendering stuff is tedious

[02:55:01.0000] <roc>
I can't resist a UTF8 vs UTF16 war

[02:56:00.0000] <fearphage>
thanks annevk 

[02:56:01.0000] <annevk>
roc, are you going to bring up the gzip argument?

[02:56:02.0000] <annevk>
/me has seen one of them before

[02:58:00.0000] <roc>
what argument is that?

[02:59:00.0000] <annevk>
that the byte savings UTF-16 gives for some languages are done away by using compression

[02:59:01.0000] <roc>
I'm just mentioning that we did some analysis showing UTF-8 is way more compact than UTF-16 for the DOM text of the front pages of some "top 20" CJK sites

[03:00:00.0000] <roc>
and Wikipedia articles too

[03:00:01.0000] <annevk>
I see, interesting

[03:08:00.0000] <roc>
The promulgation of UTF-16 is one of the dumbest, most wasteful things that's happened in software

[03:40:00.0000] <gsnedders>
At least it wasn't UTF-32.

[03:42:00.0000] <hsivonen>
roc: do you have an opinion on doing Unicode normalization on non-rendering layers in browsers?

[03:43:00.0000] <roc>
I know very little about Unicode normalization

[03:44:00.0000] <roc>
so, no

[03:45:00.0000] <hsivonen>
roc: ok. (I'm unsympathetic towards the idea of doing normalization on the parsing, DOM, JS or style system layers)

[03:45:01.0000] <roc>
I can see that

[03:45:02.0000] <Lachy>
hsivonen, do you understand why CC-by is not GPL compatible?

[03:46:00.0000] <hsivonen>
roc: ah. I now see you posted to the thread

[03:46:01.0000] <gsnedders>
What thread?

[03:46:02.0000] <annevk>
www-style

[03:47:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Ah

[03:47:01.0000] <gsnedders>
I haven't been reading www-style very closely recently

[03:47:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: for one thing, it has requirements about attribution that aren't in either version of GPL

[03:48:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: also, an issue in the CC-by 2.x vs. GPLv2 analysis was the anti-TPM clause

[03:49:00.0000] <Lachy>
sure, but I can't imagine why the mere requirement of attribution affects compatibility, especially since attribution is considered a moral right in some countries (though, I don't think it is in the US), which makes it effectively required anyway

[03:49:01.0000] <annevk>
roc, the main problem with UTF-8 is that the DOM and such now rely on 16bit representation :/

[03:49:02.0000] <Lachy>
what anti-TPM clause?  in CC-by or GPL?

[03:49:03.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: that's a gray area in non-software works

[03:49:04.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: in CC-by

[03:50:00.0000] <Lachy>
oh, I wasn't aware of that

[03:50:01.0000] <Lachy>
personally, I don't like using CC licences anyway and would prefer we didn't do so for the spec

[03:50:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: IANAL, but IIRC the expectations of attribution for software are close to null even in moral rights regimes

[03:51:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me is bothered by the attribution clause in CC-by

[03:51:01.0000] <roc>
annevk: yes, that is the great tragedy of UTF-16

[03:51:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: also, one might argue that attribution in CC-by may go beyond statutory requirements

[03:51:03.0000] <roc>
it's baked into the DOM and JS and Java and C# and Windows, not to mention the code of Gecko and Webkit

[03:52:00.0000] <hsivonen>
also Cocoa

[03:52:01.0000] <roc>
yeah

[03:52:02.0000] <jgraham>
/me tries to avoid thinking about Python in case he gets annoyed again

[03:52:03.0000] <hsivonen>
which UTF did Python 3 pick?

[03:53:00.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: "UCS guess which build option was used this time"

[03:53:01.0000] <roc>
actually with a good deal of cleverness we could probably reimplement the browser using UTF-8 internally

[03:53:02.0000] <hsivonen>
/me mumbles something about fast string bridging in Jython, IronPython and PyObj-C

[03:53:03.0000] <roc>
and still have a fast charAt

[03:53:04.0000] <gsnedders>
hsivonen: It didn't.

[03:53:05.0000] <roc>
but it's not worth it

[03:54:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me sighs

[03:54:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Python's Unicode support is sadly pretty good for native Unicode support

[03:55:00.0000] <gsnedders>
I mean, as we get more memory, the overhead of UTF-16 arguably becomes less important

[03:56:00.0000] <jgraham>
Do non-python 16bit string languages get things like the length of non-BMP strings right?

[03:57:00.0000] <hsivonen>
gsnedders: do you mean Python 3 retained the gross misfeature that is the compile time switch?

[03:57:01.0000] <gsnedders>
hsivonen: YEs

[03:57:02.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: Yes

[03:57:03.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: That would only be true if the amount of string data stored by programs didn't increase proportionally to the amount of memory we have

[03:57:04.0000] <gsnedders>
*Yes

[03:57:05.0000] <hsivonen>
gsnedders, jgraham: that's very sad

[03:57:06.0000] <gsnedders>
hsivonen: Very.

[03:58:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: 32-bit Python gets it right :P

[03:58:01.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: isn't the length worth caring about the number of code units anyway?

[03:58:02.0000] <jgraham>
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2008-July/080886.html

[03:59:00.0000] <hsivonen>
the number of characters is neither useful as a measure of storage nor as a measure of human-perceived units

[03:59:01.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: (e.g. web browsers used to have 16MB of space to use for one page, and now they have 2GB and everyone wants a hundred tabs open, so it's no good if memory usage per page increases)

[03:59:02.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: That's not my experience

[04:00:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: ok. perhaps I'm falling into the trap of strict Unicode correctness including corner cases myself here

[04:00:01.0000] <jgraham>
Like I have no use for doing some_string[4] and finding out that it's the first part of a surrogate pair

[04:01:00.0000] <Philip`>
What do you want some_string[4] to mean?

[04:01:01.0000] <hsivonen>
oh yeah, making Validator.nu astrally correct in Java was "fun"

[04:02:00.0000] <Philip`>
(and for what use case?)

[04:02:01.0000] <jgraham>
(I haven't read much of ww-style but I just tested some browsers and it seems that Webkit handles <span>o<span style="color:green;">̈</span> fine wh but other browsers generally do not)

[04:05:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: I want it to never return half a surrogate pair. I don't mind it returning a combining character

[04:06:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: why?

[04:06:01.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: isn't splitting a grapheme annoying, too?

[04:07:00.0000] <Philip`>
Why do you need the ability to index the string like an array anyway?

[04:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
man i wish someone had volunteered to do this rendering section

[04:08:01.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: It's not clear to me how it is possible to design a sane api where graphemes are not split when they are in fact seperate in the underlying representation

[04:09:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, people volunteer to do the simple stuff (and then get bitten, see e.g. XMLHttpRequest)

[04:09:01.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[04:09:02.0000] <Hixie>
there's no simple stuff :-)

[04:09:03.0000] <Hixie>
not if you do it right

[04:10:00.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: Although maybe if you make everything very complicated and put lots of normalisation-related methods on each string you can do it

[04:12:00.0000] <wilhelm>
/me noticed.

[04:21:00.0000] <annevk>
bit unfortunate that :indeterminate was dropped from CSS just now HTML5 adds it

[04:21:01.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[04:22:00.0000] <hsivonen>
does CSS have a pseudo class that would be suitable for denoting an active caption per video clock?

[04:24:00.0000] <annevk>
you lost me in the end

[04:25:00.0000] <Lachy>
hsivonen, I don't understand what you mean

[04:26:00.0000] <jgraham>
I assume hsivonen means a :showing pseudo class that would match the caption currently being displayed from some list of captions or so

[04:26:01.0000] <hsivonen>
suppose you have a caption that you want to be visible from t_1 to t_2

[04:27:00.0000] <hsivonen>
and you'd do this by making the caption gain a pseudo class when the video is playing between t_1 and t_2

[04:27:01.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: that's what I mean

[04:28:00.0000] <annevk>
since the captions are likely to be part of the video resource, wouldn't something like video::caption be better?

[04:29:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: as far as I can tell, security requires captions to live in a nested browsing context as far as the DOM cares

[04:30:00.0000] <annevk>
that sounds like an implementation detail

[04:30:01.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: do you mean you'd style the captions by styling a pseudo element in the outer cascade?

[04:31:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me mumbles something about styling captions

[04:31:01.0000] <WebG-Alt>
Hi anne. Was this directed to me? - WebG

[04:31:02.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: I'd expect what you are saying to be more complex than making the nested browsing context have its own cascade

[04:31:03.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: but I'm not a style system implementor

[04:33:00.0000] <WebG-Alt>
Fair enough!

[04:33:01.0000] <annevk>
WebG-Alt, prolly not :)

[04:34:00.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, I have no idea what you're on about; <video> does not have a nested browsing context; captions are not represented by elements in the DOM; what is a pseudo-class good for?

[04:34:01.0000] <WebG-Alt>
D'oh sorry. Thought message was for me. Sorry unfamiliar with IRC!

[04:35:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: suppose a model where captions are rendered by the browser's CSS formatter in a nested browsing context that overlays the video frame

[04:36:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Anyone got a sane style sheet for a letter?

[04:36:01.0000] <hsivonen>
gsnedders: hendry has a Web service that might contain one

[04:37:00.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, ok, how would a pseudo-class help?

[04:37:01.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, would you have selectors that bleed through the browsing context boundary (as seen in <iframe seamless>, but not in any browser)

[04:38:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: suppose the nested browsing context contains a DOM with captions for different times as siblings

[04:38:01.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: and then the :showing (or whatever) pseudo class travels from one DOM item to another as playback time progresses

[04:39:00.0000] <jgraham>
(the obvious HTML would presumably be an <ol>)

[04:39:01.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: <div> :-)

[04:39:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Heck, how would you markup a letter in HTML?

[04:39:03.0000] <gsnedders>
HTML so isn't made for this :)

[04:40:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me concludes LaTeX is probably better, again

[04:40:01.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Use Word - it's made for this

[04:41:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: But LaTeX has the document class "letter"!

[04:41:01.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, I think one draft had :show and :hide at one point, but I'm not sure how that would help

[04:41:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: And LaTeX > Word.

[04:41:03.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: And Word has a document template "Letter"

[04:42:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: Yes. But only in certian circumstances and if you are prepared to play free and easy with your sanity.

[04:42:01.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: is :show generic enough that a vocabulary can give it a meaning without a lot of CSS WG process?

[04:42:02.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, oh, I guess you want to style the caption file itself

[04:43:00.0000] <WebG-Alt>
This may be a crap suggestion, but what about just, e.g. dragging a .doc into say DreamWeaver and letting it autocreate the styles? Theyll be moronically named but it may do the trick?

[04:43:01.0000] <WebG-Alt>
For jgraham

[04:44:00.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, can't find :show anymore

[04:44:01.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, might have been :open and :closed from http://www.damowmow.com/temp/csswg/old/ui/dui.html

[04:44:02.0000] <jgraham>
WebG-Alt: I'm not trying to do anything. gsnedders is.

[04:44:03.0000] <gsnedders>
/me is the idiot, not jgraham 

[04:44:04.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: thanks

[04:44:05.0000] <WebG-Alt>
Sorry

[04:46:00.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-preslev/ comes to mind as well

[04:48:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I wonder how much process in involved in getting the CSS WG mint a pseudo class

[04:49:00.0000] <annevk>
there's lots of time involved

[04:49:01.0000] <annevk>
e.g. :scope still has not been discussed by the WG

[04:49:02.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: that's what I suspected

[04:49:03.0000] <annevk>
took a long time to get http://www.w3.org/TR/becss/ published as well

[04:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
i don't remember that taking _that_ long

[04:51:01.0000] <annevk>
after it took several weeks longer than necessary to decide to publish, it took another coupld of months before it actually got published

[04:52:00.0000] <annevk>
the becss sample might be good to use for getting :scope through

[04:52:01.0000] <annevk>
though

[04:54:00.0000] <hendry>
gsnedders: letterly.com

[04:54:01.0000] <gsnedders>
hendry: thx

[04:55:00.0000] <hsivonen>
so if this pseudo class idea were pursued, should Mozilla just mint a :-moz-foo pseudo class and risk content coming to depend on it or how would things work out best?

[04:56:00.0000] <gsnedders>
hendry: Heh. Just uses XeTeX :)

[04:56:01.0000] <hsivonen>
the relevant discussion is on xiph's accessibility list, btw

[04:56:02.0000] <Hixie>
ok bed time

[04:56:03.0000] <Hixie>
nn

[04:56:04.0000] <gsnedders>
sleep tight, little boy :P

[05:05:00.0000] <annevk>
hmm, hsivonen, are you following the www-tag discussion on making rel take URLs?

[05:06:00.0000] <annevk>
/me is not sure how to say that making rel= significantly more complex without direct benefit is not such a great idea

[05:06:01.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: not properly. I'm trying to escape the tyranny of email and get actual code written

[05:06:02.0000] <annevk>
/me can think of more important features to implement than resolving rel values as URLs before comparison

[05:07:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: I did notice that I got CCs on the thread

[05:07:01.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, more power to you then :)

[05:10:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://philip.html5.org/data/link-rel-rev.txt - some of those don't look like they're going to work too happily if you resolve them as URLs

[05:15:00.0000] <annevk>
the idea is also rather incompatible with relList at the moment

[05:15:01.0000] <hsivonen>
sigh. I can't even program simple BOM sniffing right

[05:28:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: Apparentely the TAG don't have to worry about the real world or something

[05:29:00.0000] <annevk>
replied

[05:29:01.0000] <annevk>
we'll see what happens

[05:29:02.0000] <annevk>
I'm not really inclined to even ask for resources to implement such features; seems so far away from what everyday authors are asking for...

[06:07:00.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, I'm curious, how far are you in making the HTML5 parser work in Gecko?

[06:09:00.0000] <hsivonen>
right now I'm trying to complete all the encoding stuff that I needed to reimplement with Gecko's APIs

[06:09:01.0000] <hsivonen>
and layout is still notified too often

[06:46:00.0000] <zcorpan>
gsnedders: anolis doesn't handle <dl><dt><dt> correctly

[07:17:00.0000] <jgraham>
Does anyone know of a simple js plotting library where I can give it a html table and say "plot column 1 against column 3"

[07:20:00.0000] <Lachy>
jgraham, plotkit

[07:24:00.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: Oh, right, I missed that part of the docs. Thanks :)

[07:43:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me guesses the parser doesn't, and Anolis does fine

[07:43:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Because Anolis doesn't do anything with dl/dt AFAIK

[07:56:00.0000] <yorick>
with the application cache, is there any way to access online data when online instead of updating the cache and then load it?

[08:00:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders if anyone has made a blog commenting system where 'trusted' users (e.g. those who have posted non-spam comments in the past) can view the moderation queue of posts from untrusted users and approve them

[08:08:00.0000] <bzed>
/me thinks that should not be too hard to add that to ikiwiki

[08:11:00.0000] <annevk>
http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/02/02/birth-of-a-security-feature-clickjacking-defense.aspx I do not really agree with their notion of "open forum". They could have discussed this e.g. on various public mailing lists, but didn't.

[08:16:00.0000] <Lachy>
Philip`, that sounds like a good idea

[08:16:01.0000] <Lachy>
I don't know of any that do that

[08:17:00.0000] <Lachy>
I think the closest there is to it is probably the slashdot system where people are granted temporary rights to moderate comments

[08:48:00.0000] <dglazkov>
good morning, WebKit!

[08:50:00.0000] <Philip`>
dglazkov: Wrong channel? :-)

[09:04:00.0000] <dglazkov>
indeed

[09:37:00.0000] <gsnedders>
hsivonen: validator.nu often includes <http://c.validator.nu/all/> which doesn'texist

[10:10:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Hasn't XML Namespaces taught you that you shouldn't expect URIs to be dereferencable?

[10:10:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: :)

[12:19:00.0000] <zcorpan>
/me looks at http://html4all.org/HTML_Workgroup/tHTML_Parsing.html

[12:22:00.0000] <zcorpan>
it seems a script would only execute if it is in the form <script src=... />

[12:24:00.0000] <zcorpan>
<!doctype html><head><div> would insert the div in head

[12:27:00.0000] <zcorpan>
oh wait i was wrong about the script thing

[12:31:00.0000] <zcorpan>
<html relaxngdefinition=...>?

[12:34:00.0000] <zcorpan>
there's <handler> and <separator> and <h> and <l> but not <nl>

[14:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
gsnedders: my opinion is that i micromanage my biblio so much that any kind of automated system would actually be a net loss of productivity to me. :-)

[14:43:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: :)

[14:53:00.0000] <Lachy>
gsnedders, for now, I think you could just focus on getting support for biblio using an internal database or file containing the common RFC and W3C TR entries. Then you can look into providing custom entries after that's done

[14:53:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Lachy: I want opinions now! I've basically hidden this Anolis module as my computing project for school :)

[14:54:00.0000] <Lachy>
but when you do get around to doing custom biblio entries, it would be easiest if I could just specifiy a command line parameter with a file path, pointing to a file using the same format as whatever is used for the internal data file

[15:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
so long as pimpmyspec.net supports it...

[15:27:01.0000] <Hixie>
(assuming i'm going to use it)

[15:28:00.0000] <Dashiva>
pimpmyspec needs some an actually pimpin' options

[15:28:01.0000] <Dashiva>
-an

[15:32:00.0000] <Hixie>
anyone got IE handy?

[15:32:01.0000] <Hixie>
any version

[15:32:02.0000] <Hixie>
what does it do with http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/nph-030 ?

[15:33:00.0000] <Dashiva>
blue

[15:33:01.0000] <Dashiva>
IE6 win

[15:33:02.0000] <Dashiva>
*7

[15:34:00.0000] <Hixie>
thanks

[15:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
heycam: i've written every word of the html5 spec

[15:37:01.0000] <heycam>
Hixie, ok.  so there has been at least one occasion where i remember you saying that you used text that i suggested.  was it reworded instead?

[15:37:02.0000] <Hixie>
almost certainly

[15:37:03.0000] <heycam>
ok

[15:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
there may have been minor exceptions, like one or two lines or some such

[15:38:01.0000] <Hixie>
but good luck to anyone who wants to try their luck in court over that :-)

[15:38:02.0000] <heycam>
too small to be copyrightable, perhaps

[15:38:03.0000] <Hixie>
right

[15:38:04.0000] <Dashiva>
Like when someone tells you how to change the "relationship to x" parts :)

[15:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
if such lines were to be a problem, the examples would be a much bigger problem first

[15:39:01.0000] <Hixie>
(many of them quote things like monty python)

[15:39:02.0000] <Hixie>
(one even quotes part of the svg spec's copyright notice...)

[15:51:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, first example in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-section-element copied verbatim from http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/help-whatwg.org/2008-December/000157.html

[15:51:01.0000] <Lachy>
I'll see you in court! ;-)

[15:52:00.0000] <Dashiva>
/me wonders how much HTML5 is in Lachy's text...

[15:52:01.0000] <Lachy>
Dashiva, shh!

[15:52:02.0000] <Dashiva>
Smells like settlement

[15:52:03.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: opera owns your work, and opera is one of the copyright owners of html5, so good luck with that :-P

[15:53:00.0000] <Lachy>
ah, damnit

[15:53:01.0000] <Hixie>
this is not my first barbequeue :-P

[15:55:00.0000] <heycam>
barbecue?

[15:55:01.0000] <heycam>
bbq.enqueue(aSausage)

[15:57:00.0000] <Lachy>
heycam, the correct spelling is Barbeque. Barbecue is the American spelling

[15:57:01.0000] <heycam>
Lachy, ok thanks.  i was tricked by gtk's spell checking text box. =)

[15:58:00.0000] <Hixie>
oops, i had a banana problem with my barbeque

[15:58:01.0000] <Hixie>
how embarassing

[15:58:02.0000] <sicking>
haha

[15:58:03.0000] <Lachy>
heycam, set your spell checker to en-AU instead of en-US

[15:58:04.0000] <heycam>
let's just call it a barbie and be done with it :)

[15:59:00.0000] <heycam>
/me wonders where he might do that

[15:59:01.0000] <Lachy>
heycam, careful, the non-Aussies here might think you're talking about a toy doll


2009-02-04
[16:00:00.0000] <Dashiva>
/me looks for shrimps to toss

[16:00:01.0000] <Lachy>
(that is, unless I'm mistaken about "barbie" being aussie slang)

[16:01:00.0000] <heycam>
it's certainly a commonly parodied contraction...

[16:03:00.0000] <sicking>
if they were having fosters at the barbie i think it's pretty safe to assume it's authentic Australian 

[16:03:01.0000] <heycam>
lol

[16:03:02.0000] <heycam>
/me is always surprised to see fosters advertised when abroad

[16:03:03.0000] <Lachy>
sicking, real Aussies don't drink Fosters. That's the crap we export

[16:04:00.0000] <sicking>
Lachy, i know :)

[16:06:00.0000] <heycam>
is it en_UK or en_GB?

[16:07:00.0000] <heycam>
aspell doesn't seem to have en_AU support

[16:09:00.0000] <Lachy>
heycam, en-GB

[16:09:01.0000] <heycam>
hmm, i've always had LANG=en_AU.UTF-8

[16:09:02.0000] <Lachy>
I'm not sure what variants en-UK would have

[16:09:03.0000] <heycam>
i wonder if that underscore is wrong

[16:10:00.0000] <heycam>
/me gives up for now

[17:03:00.0000] <robburns>
zcorpan: saw your comments on tHTML. That div in head was an error on my part. Not at all the type of parsing I intended. Thanks for pointing it out.

[17:26:00.0000] <heycam>
does <script type="text/javascript;version=1.6"> mean anything special beyond <script type="text/javascript">?

[17:28:00.0000] <roc>
yeah, it enables language features

[17:28:01.0000] <heycam>
without a version, what does it default to?

[17:28:02.0000] <heycam>
/me is wondering how to expose JS-that's-not-ES232 features in batik

[17:29:00.0000] <roc>
you quickly reached the limits of my knowledge

[17:29:01.0000] <heycam>
:)

[17:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me wishes there was no out-of-band versioning data for JS

[17:38:00.0000] <heycam>
so basically i was wondering if it would be reasonable to make <svg:script type="text/javascript;version=1.6"> turn on the relevant feature flags in rhino

[17:39:00.0000] <heycam>
or perhaps even distinguish between {text,application}/javascript and {text,application}/ecmascript to turn on the features

[17:40:00.0000] <heycam>
currently all JS-and-not-ES features are turned off, and i'm enjoying using 'for each' and 'let' lately in my own project using rhino

[17:40:01.0000] <heycam>
so though it might be good to expose them somehow

[17:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
any reason they can't just be turned on by default?

[17:41:01.0000] <heycam>
only my lack of knowledge about what the appropriate thing to do is

[17:43:00.0000] <gavin_>
/me tries and fails to determine how gecko handles a missing version

[17:44:00.0000] <gavin_>
we end up with JSVERSION_UNKNOWN at http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/src/base/nsJSEnvironment.cpp#3676 , and I don't see where that case is handled

[17:44:01.0000] <gavin_>
(in the JS engine)

[17:44:02.0000] <gavin_>
I suppose that just means it falls back to "default" language features

[17:45:00.0000] <heycam>
might be http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/src/nsParserUtils.cpp#282 that does that

[17:47:00.0000] <gavin_>
oh, actually I misread

[17:47:01.0000] <gavin_>
http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/src/nsScriptLoader.cpp#391 takes another path if there is no version at all

[17:49:00.0000] <gavin_>
and in fact we'd actually end up in http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/src/nsScriptLoader.cpp#442 without the type="" attribtue at all

[17:49:01.0000] <gavin_>
...and you already found that

[17:50:00.0000] <heycam>
/me goes to lunch, thanks for looking gavin_

[17:51:00.0000] <gavin_>
needed something to get my mind off fennec panning code :)

[18:06:00.0000] <Hixie>
good lord

[18:06:01.0000] <Hixie>
what have i gotten myself into

[18:15:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Is that a rhetorical question?

[18:16:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: it's hard to figure out a unique referent for that complaint

[18:21:00.0000] <Hixie>
the direct referrent was the big swamp of a mess around the presentational attributes for setting margins on <body>

[18:21:01.0000] <Hixie>
and more generally the rendering section as a whole

[18:21:02.0000] <Hixie>
and more generally still, html5.

[18:22:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Just a few more steps until all of creation

[18:23:00.0000] <Hixie>
i only took responsibility for html5 :-P

[18:27:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Pssh, surely you'll need something to do after 2022

[18:29:00.0000] <jruderman>
annevk: you might enjoy opera bug 246216

[18:34:00.0000] <Hixie>
Dashiva: i'll wait til 2022 to find out what i feel like doing :-P

[18:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
holy crap

[18:40:01.0000] <Hixie>
i can set the margins on a <body> element cross-domain in all four major browsers

[18:41:00.0000] <roc>
woohoo

[18:41:01.0000] <Hixie>
i can't think of any way to abuse that off the top of my head

[18:41:02.0000] <Hixie>
but that's surprising nonetheless

[20:01:00.0000] <Dashiva>
/me wonders if six separate replies at once really was the best way to move the discussion ahead

[20:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
Dashiva: any of them include use cases?

[20:30:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Looks more like the requesting uses cases kind

[20:30:01.0000] <Dashiva>
*use

[20:30:02.0000] <Hixie>
well at least it takes about use cases then i guess

[21:03:00.0000] <dbaron>
are the non-fieldset uses of <legend> in HTML5 intended to be display:block or display:inline ?

[21:03:01.0000] <Hixie>
block

[21:03:02.0000] <dbaron>
I'm guessing display:block, but I'm not sure...

[21:03:03.0000] <dbaron>
k

[21:03:04.0000] <Hixie>
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#display-types

[21:04:00.0000] <Hixie>
(that section is very new and very much a work in progress; please let me know if you spot any mistakes but don't be surprised to see basic things wrong there)

[01:22:00.0000] <annevk>
jruderman, I'm not a huge fan of the mess that is CSS syntax, but sure :)

[01:39:00.0000] <annevk>
/me found a CSS 2.1 bug in IE8 by studying a handful of CSS 2.1 compliance tests from MS

[01:40:00.0000] <othermaciej>
heh

[02:12:00.0000] <annevk>
why should width="0032" not be valid?

[02:14:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, also "0032" does not return an error per the algorithm...

[02:14:01.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, for dimension values

[02:17:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, the step of collecting 0 characters after the fraction substeps is not necessary

[02:17:01.0000] <Hixie>
it's necessary to drop "0.9"

[02:17:02.0000] <Hixie>
and it doesn't matter what's valid

[02:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
in fact i've commented out the definition of "valid dimension value" in the working copy

[02:18:01.0000] <Hixie>
since nothing uses it

[02:19:00.0000] <annevk>
I see... my last comment still stands though

[02:19:01.0000] <Hixie>
oh after the fraction substeps

[02:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
wow what's that doing there

[02:20:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me removes

[02:21:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, "maps to the dimension property" uses both <var>properties</var> and <var>property</var>

[02:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
thx

[02:39:00.0000] <annevk>
/me finds out zcorpan joined the XML Core WG

[02:39:01.0000] <zcorpan>
about time :)

[02:40:00.0000] <zcorpan>
(not that you found out but that i joined)

[02:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
i saw that too

[02:44:01.0000] <Hixie>
what made you join the xml core wg? :-)

[02:45:00.0000] <annevk>
going to change their mind about xml:id? :p

[02:45:01.0000] <othermaciej>
that would be a boon to mankind

[02:45:02.0000] <hsivonen>
yes, please!

[02:45:03.0000] <zcorpan>
update xml-stylesheet

[02:46:00.0000] <zcorpan>
i guess i have to make opera drop support for xml:id before suggesting the wg drop it

[02:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
holy crap, you're giving xml-stylesheet the 5 treatment?

[02:48:01.0000] <Hixie>
that'd be awesome

[02:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
does that mean anne is going to do the cssom side too? :-)

[02:49:01.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: http://simon.html5.org/specs/xml-stylesheet5

[02:50:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me jumps into that spec and feels eerily familiar with a lot of the text :-P

[02:50:01.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, re the list header thread, I was thinking the same thing but using an <h1> element instead. like <figure><h1>A header for the list</h1><ul><li>...</ul></figure>

[02:50:02.0000] <Lachy>
but I suppose <legend> is reasonable

[02:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
h1 would screw up the outline

[02:51:01.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: i wrote it from scratch! promise! :rolleyes:

[02:51:02.0000] <Lachy>
no, cause <figure> is a sectioning root, and the spec says it wouldn't

[02:51:03.0000] <Hixie>
unless they really wanted that, in which case <section> would be better than <legend>

[02:51:04.0000] <Hixie>
oh it is?

[02:51:05.0000] <Hixie>
sweet

[02:51:06.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: :-P

[02:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: re 3.1 Conformance constraints

[02:52:01.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, could you make a note to add an example of this use case to the spec

[02:52:02.0000] <Lachy>
or I could send mail if you like

[02:53:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: it's unclear what those conformance requirements mean. are they well-formedness checks, or just conforamnce requirements that mean nothing except to any implement except henri?

[02:53:01.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: file a bug or send mail, yes please

[02:53:02.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: note that i just added it to the faq

[02:53:03.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: the latter

[02:54:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: section 4 explained it to me, yeah. a note in 3 would be helpful.

[02:54:01.0000] <zcorpan>
noted. thanks

[02:54:02.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: (in particular, because with xml, one never knows what is expected to be the end of the world and what should be ignored)

[02:55:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: (it wouldn't be a big deal if this was, say, css or html)

[02:55:01.0000] <Hixie>
man, i've really corrupted y'all

[02:55:02.0000] <Hixie>
this state machine feels eerily familiar!

[02:56:00.0000] <zcorpan>
lol

[02:58:00.0000] <Hixie>
"must stop the state machine so that pseudo-attributes can be processed" could be clearer, it wasn't obvious to me how important that sentence was (namely that it represents the "output" of the algorithm) on my first reading. I don't have a good suggestion for improving it though.

[02:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
btw, your <dfn> elements aren't styled, which makes understanding what terms are special harder than ideal

[02:59:01.0000] <zcorpan>
i switched to the w3c style sheet

[03:00:00.0000] <Hixie>
"the user agent must begin to download the resource" should probably be a "should", since there are numerous reasons why the UA might not actually download the resource

[03:00:01.0000] <Hixie>
e.g. the user is roaming on a different continent and style sheets cost $3 per byte

[03:00:02.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, for background="...", shouldn't it set background-image to "url(" absolute URL ")" ...

[03:01:00.0000] <Hixie>
er yes

[03:01:01.0000] <Hixie>
er well

[03:01:02.0000] <Hixie>
hm

[03:01:03.0000] <annevk>
CSS doesn't quite define the appropriate hooks I'm afraid

[03:01:04.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[03:01:05.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: changed

[03:03:00.0000] <Hixie>
looks like a good spec overall

[03:03:01.0000] <Hixie>
you're going to need hooks into anne's non-existent (iirc) cssom draft

[03:03:02.0000] <Hixie>
e.g. to define how this hooks up to alternative style sheets

[03:04:00.0000] <annevk>
it does actually exist, but I haven't found time to work on it in the past year or so :/

[03:04:01.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: i'm going to leave it as setting it to hte URL, and claim that url(...) is a URL (and that a URL isn't a string)

[03:04:02.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: i know, i'm just teasing :-)

[03:04:03.0000] <Hixie>
/me finds that working on two drafts at a time is hard enough

[03:05:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me wishes he knew why his hard drive was spinning so much

[03:05:01.0000] <Hixie>
what OS?

[03:05:02.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: thanks

[03:06:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I believe annevk is right and Rob Burns isn't when it comes to Unicode normalization in a conforming XML processor

[03:07:00.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: Linux (Ubuntu)

[03:07:01.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: use lsof(1)

[03:09:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/forms.html#file-upload-state .value does apply to <input type=file> ...

[03:11:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: send mail

[03:11:01.0000] <Hixie>
or file a bug

[03:11:02.0000] <Hixie>
you're right, i should just make it apply with mode "filename" or some such

[03:11:03.0000] <annevk>
I'll file a bug

[03:46:00.0000] <Hixie>
i like how every browser supports font-size:xxx-large

[03:51:00.0000] <annevk>
I like how for filing spec bugs test cases are not a requirement

[03:52:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, Opera does not

[03:53:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, Firefox does not...

[03:53:01.0000] <Hixie>
hey look at that

[03:53:02.0000] <Hixie>
there's a bug in my testcase

[03:53:03.0000] <Hixie>
nevermind!

[03:53:04.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, we have a bug about submitting forms to fragment identifiers. e.g. <form action="#top">. I can't figure out from the spec what the expected behaviour is supposed to be

[03:54:00.0000] <Hixie>
?

[03:57:00.0000] <Hixie>
per spec, the fragment identifier should have no effect

[03:57:01.0000] <Hixie>
(except for changing how the url is resolved)

[03:57:02.0000] <annevk>
though it should survive the request and potential redirects

[03:57:03.0000] <Hixie>
(in the presence of a <base> element, e.g.)

[03:57:04.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[03:59:00.0000] <Lachy>
ok

[04:01:00.0000] <annevk>
oh great, Opera has a bug per HTML5 in font handling

[04:01:01.0000] <annevk>
<font size=+> is treated as a presentional hint

[04:01:02.0000] <Hixie>
really?

[04:02:00.0000] <annevk>
yeah, but not in e.g. Firefox

[04:02:01.0000] <Hixie>
oh yeah

[04:02:02.0000] <Hixie>
weird

[04:02:03.0000] <Hixie>
opera only

[04:02:04.0000] <annevk>
/me checks IE

[04:02:05.0000] <annevk>
yeah, Opera only

[04:06:00.0000] <annevk>
but hey, our behavior is conforming anyway :p

[04:07:00.0000] <Hixie>
conforming but "unexpected" :-)

[04:17:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: "The td and th elements' height attributes map to the dimension property 'height' on the element." is stated twice

[04:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
i removed a copy, i hope that was not a more serious error

[04:25:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: surely <div align=justify> should justify the text, not left-align?

[04:25:01.0000] <Hixie>
you'd think

[04:25:02.0000] <Hixie>
can you get IE to justify text?

[04:25:03.0000] <zcorpan>
just tested in opera and firefox

[04:26:00.0000] <zcorpan>
ie8

[04:26:01.0000] <zcorpan>
yep

[04:26:02.0000] <zcorpan>
also in quirks mode

[04:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
url?

[04:29:00.0000] <zcorpan>
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%0D%0A%3Cdiv%20align%3Djustify%3Eaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa%20aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa%20aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[04:29:01.0000] <annevk>
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3Dwidth%3A100px%20align%3Djustify%3Etest%20tes%20te%20st%20fdkjla%20fdalk%20fds%20fjd%20sfs%20afsd

[04:30:00.0000] <annevk>
same for IE6

[04:31:00.0000] <zcorpan>
i see it for <td> though

[04:32:00.0000] <zcorpan>
however opera, firefox and webkit justify for <td>

[04:33:00.0000] <zcorpan>
and i haven't seen pages break because of it

[04:34:00.0000] <zcorpan>
so i'd go with the majority :)

[04:35:00.0000] <zcorpan>
in fact, ie doesn't support 'justify' on tables at all

[04:35:01.0000] <zcorpan>
<table><tr align=right><td align=justify>foo bar

[04:35:02.0000] <zcorpan>
is right-aligned

[04:36:00.0000] <zcorpan>
(insert width=100% on the table tag)

[04:36:01.0000] <annevk>
ooh, did zcorpan just beat Hixie in a reverse engineering match? :D

[04:37:00.0000] <jgraham>
I guess Kixie is lining up for a killer blow :)

[04:37:01.0000] <jgraham>
*Hixie

[04:37:02.0000] <Hixie>
i was testing <div> inside <caption> primarily, iirc

[04:40:00.0000] <zcorpan>
justifies for me

[04:40:01.0000] <zcorpan>
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!doctype%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Ctable%20width%3D100%25%20border%3E%0D%0A%3Ccaption%20width%3D100%25%20style%3Dborder%3Asolid%3E%20%3Cdiv%20align%3Djustify%3Eaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa%20aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa%20aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[04:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
i wonder what i was doing

[04:41:01.0000] <Hixie>
oh well

[04:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
fixed

[04:45:00.0000] <annevk>
/me changes topic to 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks! -- zcorpan 1 : Hixie 0'

[04:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok tomorrow i begin on 10.4 Self-contained features

[04:51:01.0000] <zcorpan>
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!doctype%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cdiv%20align%3Dright%3E%0D%0A%20%3Ctable%20border%20style%3Dmargin-right%3Aauto%3E%3Ctd%3Ex

[04:51:02.0000] <Hixie>
feel free to send mail on 10.3 stuff

[04:51:03.0000] <Hixie>
i'm going to bed now

[04:51:04.0000] <Hixie>
nn

[04:51:05.0000] <zcorpan>
nn

[04:52:00.0000] <jgraham>
goodnight

[05:02:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200902/validating_wai-aria_in_html_and_xhtml/ - apparently roger wants html4+aria with landmarks, too

[05:04:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: does at least one of Gecko/WebKit/Presto/Trident expose landmarks to AT?

[05:05:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: there's no dedicated way to expose landmarks (yet), but gecko expose them as any other (unknown) role, i think

[05:06:00.0000] <zcorpan>
or maybe that has changed now, i haven't followed aria stuff closely lately; ask aaronlev

[05:06:01.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: thanks

[05:07:00.0000] <zcorpan>
i am unaware of any browser+AT combination that does something useful with landmarks

[05:07:01.0000] <zcorpan>
but as i said i'm not on top of the topic :)

[05:10:00.0000] <annevk>
we need more spec minions

[05:13:00.0000] <hsivonen>
does anyone have concrete data that shows the necessity of autodetecting BOMless UTF-16?

[05:14:00.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: No, but define "necessity"

[05:14:01.0000] <hsivonen>
I want to avoid the problems that accidental detection as UTF-16 causes if at all possible

[05:14:02.0000] <annevk>
maybe for non-Western sites generated by PHP that do not declare an encoding but are using UTF-16? (PHP has issues with BOM)

[05:15:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: something that would be considered a regression that'd need fixing in Gecko

[05:17:00.0000] <hsivonen>
so far I know that if Chinese probabilities are loaded but Cyrillic probabilities aren't, bad stuff can happen on Cyrillic sites

[05:19:00.0000] <zcorpan>
got email from stevef: [[ supported in JAWS 10

[05:19:01.0000] <zcorpan>
detailed info

[05:19:02.0000] <zcorpan>
http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=106

[05:19:03.0000] <zcorpan>
http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/landmarks.html ]]

[05:19:04.0000] <hsivonen>
thanks

[05:20:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I don't like the way the implementation order of HTML5 intrinsic landmarks and ARIA landmarks played out, but I guess that's enough of a reason to stop trying to object to ARIA landmarks

[05:20:01.0000] <annevk>
not enough*

[05:26:00.0000] <Lachy>
hsivonen, would you have preferred implementers to get the HTML5 elements implemented first, reducing the need for aria landmarks at all?

[05:26:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: I'd have preferred HTML5 elements getting exposed as landmarks first and then not doing ARIA landmarks at all

[05:27:00.0000] <annevk>
agreed, that would have benefited authors as well

[05:27:01.0000] <Lachy>
yeah, that's basically what I argued for when the aria discussion started

[05:37:00.0000] <yecril71>
Attributes in XHTML are in the default namespace.

[05:38:00.0000] <annevk>
they are not in a namespace

[05:38:01.0000] <yecril71>
Therefore, xhtml:content would not refer to anything particular.

[05:40:00.0000] <yecril71>
All right, I should have rather used "global namespace" instead.

[05:41:00.0000] <yecril71>
List headers can be simulated using DL; I have updated the FAQ with an example.

[05:41:01.0000] <hsivonen>
yecril71: the right term is "in no namespace"

[05:42:00.0000] <hsivonen>
actually, "not in a namespace" as anne said is probably even more correct

[05:43:00.0000] <yecril71>
so getAttributeNS("content", "") should fail?

[05:43:01.0000] <hsivonen>
yecril71: "not in a namespace" is represented as null as the NS URI in the DOM

[05:43:02.0000] <hsivonen>
as the empty string in SAX

[05:44:00.0000] <yecril71>
so getAttributeNS("content", "") should fail?

[05:44:01.0000] <hsivonen>
yes

[05:44:02.0000] <yecril71>
Thx

[05:46:00.0000] <annevk>
getAttributeNS(null, "content") is the same as getAttributeNS("", "content") fwiw

[05:46:01.0000] <hsivonen>
oh

[05:46:02.0000] <yecril71>
Sorry for getting the parameters upside down :-(

[05:47:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: is that a Web DOM thing or a W3C DOM thing?

[05:47:01.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, W3C DOM aliases "" and null

[05:48:00.0000] <yecril71>
Is it possible to go out of namespace with xmlns attribute?

[05:49:00.0000] <yecril71>
(to leave the current namespace, that is)

[05:51:00.0000] <hsivonen>
yecril71: do you mean xmlns=""?

[05:53:00.0000] <yecril71>
I thought xmlns="" restores the global namespace.

[05:53:01.0000] <annevk>
there's no global namespace

[05:53:02.0000] <annevk>
that's XML 2.0 fiction

[05:53:03.0000] <yecril71>
Aha.

[05:54:00.0000] <yecril71>
So the effect is "no namespace", right?

[05:55:00.0000] <Philip`>
Is it something like xmlns="" or xmlns:foo="" that's forbidden in XML 1.0 but allowed in XML 1.1?

[05:56:00.0000] <yecril71>
xmlns:foo="" is forbidden.

[05:56:01.0000] <yecril71>
"The empty namespace must go unprefixed", MSXML says.

[05:58:00.0000] <Lachy>
yecril71, using a <dl> to simulate a list header doesn't seem semantically correct to me

[05:59:00.0000] <yecril71>
It is part of a larger paradigm, using DL to simulate a record.

[06:00:00.0000] <yecril71>
In JSON, it would go { apples: [ ... ] }

[06:00:01.0000] <annevk>
Philip`, it's xmlns:foo="" though there has been talk on lifting the restriction

[06:01:00.0000] <Philip`>
annevk: Lifting it in a new edition of XML 1.0?

[06:01:01.0000] <annevk>
of Namespaces in XML 1.0

[06:02:00.0000] <annevk>
the wording is not that good either currently "In such declarations, the namespace name may not be empty."

[06:02:01.0000] <annevk>
I think I raised that as an issue

[06:02:02.0000] <Philip`>
/me is being too lazy to write "Namespaces in" when he refers to it :-)

[06:03:00.0000] <yecril71>
It is not clear whether "name" refers to the prefix or to the URL.

[06:03:01.0000] <yecril71>
I would say it refers to the prefix because it is more like a name.

[06:03:02.0000] <annevk>
Philip`, actually, maybe it won't be changed, see NE14 in http://www.w3.org/XML/2006/xml-names-errata

[06:04:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me decides to not see NE14, since he's currently using Cygwin and it takes far too much effort to copy-and-paste a URL

[06:09:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me finds Minefield complaining that the Microsoft .NET Framework Assistant extension is incompatible, which is a bit confusing since he never installed that extension

[06:10:00.0000] <zcorpan>
whey, basefont?

[06:10:01.0000] <zcorpan>
why did Hixie spec basefont?

[06:11:00.0000] <zcorpan>
i thought we could get away with not supporting it

[06:13:00.0000] <annevk>
don't we support it?

[06:14:00.0000] <zcorpan>
no (iirc)

[06:14:01.0000] <zcorpan>
only ie supports it

[06:14:02.0000] <annevk>
afaict we do

[06:14:03.0000] <hsivonen>
in IE8 mode?

[06:15:00.0000] <annevk>
Firefox does not

[06:17:00.0000] <annevk>
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?x%3Cbasefont%20size%3D7%3E1%3Cfont%20size%3D%2B0%3ELARGE?%3C%2Ffont%3E

[06:17:01.0000] <annevk>
IE of course supports it in a way that is different from most browsers, it actually encloses elements

[06:18:00.0000] <annevk>
HTML5 does not support it in the IE way

[06:18:01.0000] <zcorpan>
oh we only support it for relative size on <font>

[06:18:02.0000] <zcorpan>
ok

[06:19:00.0000] <annevk>
what does WebKit do?

[06:19:01.0000] <zcorpan>
same as firefox

[06:19:02.0000] <annevk>
seems better to drop it then

[06:20:00.0000] <annevk>
going with something that's Opera compatible and not IE/Gecko/WebKit compatible is bound to be troubling

[06:21:00.0000] <zcorpan>
it's only not compatible with ie if people include </basefont>

[06:21:01.0000] <Lachy>
yikes! http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Feb/0029.html

[06:21:02.0000] <annevk>
in my testcase IE renders "1" very large as well

[06:22:00.0000] <annevk>
per HTML5 and Opera it should not

[06:24:00.0000] <zcorpan>
annevk: ok. i don't object to dropping it :)

[06:25:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Lachy: hmm, i don't see how the "mime type document" is in conflict with html5

[06:29:00.0000] <Lachy>
I don't know either

[06:29:01.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: the mime type document encourages people to serve DOM Consistency-violating XHTML+RDFa docs as text/html

[06:30:00.0000] <zcorpan>
ah

[06:31:00.0000] <Lachy>
oh, wow. The old NOTE that I read didn't say anything about RDF

[06:31:01.0000] <zcorpan>
but that's more a problem of RDFa violating DOM Consistency

[06:32:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: the note tiptoes around RDFa without being too specific about it, but it you read carefully, it doesn't put RDFa in the same bucket as MathML

[06:32:01.0000] <Lachy>
hsivonen, the mime types draft says "In particular, 'text/html' is NOT suitable for XHTML Family document types that add elements and attributes from foreign namespaces, such as XHTML+MathML [XHTML+MathML]."

[06:32:02.0000] <Lachy>
oh

[06:32:03.0000] <Lachy>
I havne't read it in detail. Maybe I will later

[06:32:04.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: well, the RDFa attributes themselves aren't from a foreign namespace

[06:33:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: xmlns:foo could be construed to be, but only in the DOM representation

[06:33:01.0000] <hsivonen>
s/DOM/XML DOM/

[06:33:02.0000] <hsivonen>
infoset-wise, one might argue that xmlns:foo slips past the qualification

[06:34:00.0000] <Lachy>
I suppose, technically, now it is in conflict with HTML5 because it says you can't use MathML in text/html, but now HTML5 says you can

[06:34:01.0000] <hsivonen>
well, that, too

[06:36:00.0000] <zcorpan>
when i commented on it, i mostly just tried to make the guidelines suck less

[06:37:00.0000] <zcorpan>
now they do suck less, but it's still possible to make harsh comments

[06:37:01.0000] <zcorpan>
maybe i should take a second pass someday

[06:38:00.0000] <hsivonen>
it might be that Dean sees a different conflict that I'm not noticing

[06:40:00.0000] <Lachy>
I'm not sure what problems Dean sees. I just think his approach to it, regardless of whether his concerns are valid or not, isn't the most constructive

[06:41:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I agree. but I can see how someone might get annoyed by a WG proceeding to publish without responding to feedback

[06:46:00.0000] <zcorpan>
they didn't address all my comments, i think

[06:47:00.0000] <annevk>
some of my 2004 or thereabouts comments on XHTML2 still stand as well

[06:47:01.0000] <zcorpan>
they said they'd fix my issues going forward

[06:47:02.0000] <zcorpan>
and i checked back sometime and they had fixed some things

[06:47:03.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: and IIRC, initially it looked like some participant(s?) were willing to ignore all your comments

[06:47:04.0000] <zcorpan>
then suddenly it was published without them going back to me asking if the result was ok

[06:47:05.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: pointer?

[06:48:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: I'd have to wade through the telecon minutes

[06:48:01.0000] <hsivonen>
let's see if Google can do it for me

[06:48:02.0000] <zcorpan>
don't put too much effort into it :)

[06:49:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-minutes.html

[06:49:01.0000] <hsivonen>
"what is obligation - have to respond, but not address or satisfy all comments if cannot be satisfied?" "can we simply thank him?"

[06:51:00.0000] <zcorpan>
uh yeah

[06:51:01.0000] <zcorpan>
"you're welcome"

[06:51:02.0000] <zcorpan>
thanks

[06:51:03.0000] <zcorpan>
gotta go

[06:55:00.0000] <karlcow>
[09:52]  <annevk> some of my 2004 or thereabouts comments on XHTML2 still stand as well

[06:55:01.0000] <karlcow>
annevk: same here, I still have a lot of unanswered comments, but I'm not requesting anything. :)

[06:56:00.0000] <karlcow>
Maybe I just react too strongly on the way people behave sometimes. :)

[06:56:01.0000] <hsivonen>
karlcow: do you have outstanding comments on drafts or on docs that exited their draft stage?

[06:57:00.0000] <annevk>
yeah, if they just published as WD it would've been different

[06:58:00.0000] <karlcow>
in 8 years, I think most of the comments I have done during last call have been answered. It has happened some of my comments have not been taken into account, but that's life. There's nothing wrong with that.

[07:01:00.0000] <karlcow>
for XHTML 2.0 specifically There are around 60 comments (from me) in the pipe

[07:01:01.0000] <hsivonen>
http://twitter.com/fantasai/statuses/1174794173

[07:09:00.0000] <Lachy>
I've just accepted the fact that I'm unlikely to ever get a response to the issues I raised against XHTML2 in 2004 and 2005, and now just ignore the work completely.

[08:36:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: Every word of the spec? Man, get a life!

[08:36:01.0000] <gsnedders>
:D

[08:45:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: 256526 words if I got it right

[08:45:01.0000] <jgraham>
(that seems rather long)

[08:45:02.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: Get a life too.

[08:46:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: If I had a life I would not have written html5lib and so that would not have been much an easy question to get the wrong answer to

[08:46:01.0000] <jgraham>
(er, I should say helped to write html5lib)

[08:47:00.0000] <jgraham>
(since other people did all the important and difficult bits)

[08:47:01.0000] <annevk>
really? I thought you did the difficult bits

[08:47:02.0000] <annevk>
at least when we started out :)

[08:49:00.0000] <jgraham>
annevk: Well Philip` has rewritten all the entity decoding stuff at leasst once

[08:50:00.0000] <jgraham>
Which is important and difficult :)

[08:50:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me has a broken implementation of that

[08:50:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Out of date, too

[08:53:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me hopes that Philip` only has UCS4 builds of python because the patch to get the right number of errors in the tokenizer for non-BMP characters will be slooow

[09:13:00.0000] <annevk>
did zcorpan comment on public-html regarding multicol and spacer not needing display:block ?

[09:17:00.0000] <annevk>
surely "table[XXX] > tr > td" is not needed for legacy content

[09:45:00.0000] <zcorpan>
annevk: i didn't

[09:47:00.0000] <annevk>
you can thank me then :p

[09:48:00.0000] <zcorpan>
thank you

[09:49:00.0000] <zcorpan>
wait, will i have to attend to telecons?

[09:49:01.0000] <zcorpan>
i'm already having second thoughts about this

[09:49:02.0000] <annevk>
XML Core WG?

[09:49:03.0000] <zcorpan>
yeah

[09:50:00.0000] <annevk>
just explain them your idea and ask whether it can be done without attending telcons

[10:34:00.0000] <takkaria>
playing with canvas is actually quite fun

[14:00:00.0000] <Lachy>
I don't recall Firefox 2's parser creating a fieldset element when it saw a legend element outside of one. I wonder why that would have been introduced in Firefox 3

[14:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
pretty sure ff2 did it too

[14:16:00.0000] <Lachy>
oh, you're right. It does do it. It's odd that I wasn't aware of that behaiour

[14:19:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Oh, yeah, if you get caught having a spy plant a nuke in Civ2 everyone declares war on you. I forgot that.

[14:28:00.0000] <Lachy>
gsnedders, what?

[14:28:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Lachy: Nothing

[14:30:00.0000] <Lachy>
gsnedders, it's just that what you said is even more ambiguous than some of your tweets

[14:30:01.0000] <Lachy>
oh, that was one of your tweets :-)

[14:59:00.0000] <takkaria>
conway's game of life with canvas, looking quite cool:

[14:59:01.0000] <takkaria>
http://takkaria.org/life.html

[15:01:00.0000] <ehird>
nice, but...

[15:01:01.0000] <ehird>
life cells don't "fade away" :_0

[15:01:02.0000] <ehird>
*:-)

[15:02:00.0000] <ehird>
takkaria: "Randomise' doesn't work

[15:03:00.0000] <inimino>
wfm

[15:04:00.0000] <inimino>
nice demo

[15:04:01.0000] <ehird>
inimino: what browser?

[15:04:02.0000] <slightlyoff>
/me notes that this could easily be done w/ a <table> or positioned <div>'s

[15:04:03.0000] <inimino>
firefox trunk

[15:05:00.0000] <ehird>
slightlyoff: yeah, if you want to wait until the heat death of the universe to watch a glider gun

[15:05:01.0000] <slightlyoff>
ehird: ??

[15:05:02.0000] <ehird>
slightlyoff: they're sloooooooow to update.

[15:05:03.0000] <slightlyoff>
ah, so this only looks right on FF

[15:05:04.0000] <slightlyoff>
(webkit nightlies don't do the fading)

[15:05:05.0000] <ehird>
ahhh

[15:06:00.0000] <ehird>
/me tries FF

[15:06:01.0000] <ehird>
It's slower now, but actually works.

[15:06:02.0000] <ehird>
That is a plus.

[15:06:03.0000] <slightlyoff>
also busted on chrome

[15:07:00.0000] <slightlyoff>
looks right on opera

[15:08:00.0000] <ehird>
Setting fade rate = 1 makes it actually correct Life.

[15:08:01.0000] <slightlyoff>
(but the slider is busted there)

[15:08:02.0000] <ehird>
It's certainly doing *something* on WebKit, but it's not Life.

[15:08:03.0000] <slightlyoff>
ehird: heh

[15:10:00.0000] <inimino>
Life finds a way?

[15:45:00.0000] <Hixie>
i hate that <applet> starts with an "a"

[15:45:01.0000] <Hixie>
it means that all alphabetical lists of embedded content elements start with an obsolete element.

[15:46:00.0000] <roc>
I've figured out what this normalization debate is about

[15:47:00.0000] <roc>
people want browsers to handle normalization, instead of other parts of the toolchain, because browsers "have to" obey Web standards and other tools don't

[15:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[15:52:00.0000] <othermaciej>
what normalization debate is this?

[15:54:00.0000] <Hixie>
ww-style


2009-02-05
[16:02:00.0000] <Hixie>
with opera's announcement of their new scripting engine, i guess IE is the only one still using a JS engine from the last century

[16:03:00.0000] <othermaciej>
it will make JS performance shootouts just look laughable

[16:14:00.0000] <roc>
where's this announcement?

[16:14:01.0000] <wilhelm>
http://my.opera.com/core/blog/2009/02/04/carakan

[16:15:00.0000] <roc>
sound good

[17:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
heycam: regarding the style sheet, i really don't want to go there. historically, we've had problems whenever specs don't stick closely to the official style sheet (e.g. CSS1's marble background). It also dilutes the W3C brand if the specs have different styles. I would recommend instead asking the pubteam to update their styles, so that all specs could benefit, not just hmtl.

[17:31:00.0000] <takkaria>
http://takkaria.org/life.html works in Safari and Opera now

[17:34:00.0000] <Hixie>
takkaria: what are the survival and birth lines?

[17:41:00.0000] <takkaria>
they control the conditions of the game

[17:42:00.0000] <takkaria>
survival 2 and 3 means that grids with 2 or 3 neighbours survive

[17:42:01.0000] <takkaria>
birth 3 means that areas with three neighbours get reborn

[17:42:02.0000] <takkaria>
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-like_cellular_automaton

[17:43:00.0000] <takkaria>
there are all kinds of funky things you do

[17:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
ah, it's a count, ok

[17:43:02.0000] <Hixie>
i thought it was the direction, which confused me

[17:44:00.0000] <takkaria>
setting everything to full and then turning some off gives a nice symmetry

[17:46:00.0000] <Hixie>
setting the survival to a high number only and birth to a low number only gives what looks like static

[17:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
i wonder if larry wants <font> and <frameset> back too

[18:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me stares at the cliff that is defining how <frameset> works, and ponders how to climb it

[18:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
wtf, mozilla does things in framesets differently based on quirks mode

[18:50:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Feb/att-0032/image006.jpg doesn't seem like especially appropriate UI

[20:50:00.0000] <heycam>
Hixie, what about the scripts on the page (dfn.js, toc.js)?

[20:51:00.0000] <heycam>
also, what was it that prompted you to remove the styles from the w3c copy some months ago?

[21:02:00.0000] <Hixie>
heycam: it seems highly unlikely that the w3c would allow me to put scripts on a page when those scripts could hijack user credentials

[21:03:00.0000] <Hixie>
heycam: i do not recall when the styles on the w3c copy were changed

[21:03:01.0000] <Hixie>
or why

[21:03:02.0000] <Hixie>
but in any case i really would much rather all of this was done w3c-wide than have html5 be special cased

[21:04:00.0000] <heycam>
Hixie, yeah i suppose those scripts could mess around with member-private webapps on w3.ogr

[21:04:01.0000] <Hixie>
they could snoop around staff-only mailing lists, too

[21:04:02.0000] <heycam>
right

[21:05:00.0000] <heycam>
so i don't think it's a matter of html5 being special cased

[21:05:01.0000] <heycam>
rather that the style requirements are loose enough that most specs have differing styles

[21:05:02.0000] <heycam>
(but with some commonality)

[21:06:00.0000] <Hixie>
if the styles are lacking so much that all the specs have to work around it, they should be changed

[21:07:00.0000] <heycam>
yes, most moderately complex specs do need to have some local styles to produce nice looking content

[21:07:01.0000] <heycam>
and it would be ideal if the site-wide styles handled these cases

[21:07:02.0000] <heycam>
but fixing that seems to be a much bigger job than changing this spec

[21:07:03.0000] <heycam>
basically to what it was like before

[21:08:00.0000] <heycam>
brb

[21:08:01.0000] <Hixie>
i'm not looking for a quick fix, i'm looking for a good fix :-)

[22:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
IE makes no sense

[22:27:01.0000] <Hixie>
<frameset cols="1.5*,1.5*">

[22:27:02.0000] <Hixie>
is treated the same as cols="1.5*,1*

[22:27:03.0000] <Hixie>
"

[22:27:04.0000] <Hixie>
decimals on the number of the last entry in the list are ignored

[22:56:00.0000] <jwalden>
only the last, or anything beyond the first?

[23:02:00.0000] <Hixie>
only the last

[23:02:01.0000] <Hixie>
also, i can't believe i'm speccing framesets. what i jip.

[23:02:02.0000] <Hixie>
what a jip, even

[23:07:00.0000] <heycam>
/me wonders if "jip" is considered more un-PC than "gyp"

[23:08:00.0000] <heycam>
or if the evolution in spelling has made it different enough from "gypsy"

[23:09:00.0000] <heycam>
s/more/as/

[23:09:01.0000] <heycam>
and s/than/as/ :)

[23:11:00.0000] <jwalden>
/me resists getting into a discussion about slur-ish words or phrases no longer being offensive in that manner when basically nobody thinks about the connotation when they say it

[23:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
my three-legged cat just brought in a big-ass dead crow.

[23:20:01.0000] <Hixie>
good times.

[23:22:00.0000] <nessy>
sounds like the house of a wizard

[23:33:00.0000] <Hixie>
a highly incompetent wizard, if these cats are anything to go by :-)

[23:33:01.0000] <Hixie>
they're ridiculously adorable, but they're not the most competent at the stereotypical wild cat behaviours

[23:33:02.0000] <Hixie>
to put it mildly

[23:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh lord

[23:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
IE distinguishes between <frameset frameborder> and <frameset frameborder=>

[23:48:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Perhaps it's just me, but I see the Dreamweaver profile screenshots as arguments *against* profile.

[00:50:00.0000] <annevk>
ooh fun, we're back to @profile

[00:50:01.0000] <annevk>
and around it goes

[00:55:00.0000] <takkaria>
I find it kinda sad that rsayre is talking about things being "no worse than the status quo"

[00:56:00.0000] <hsivonen>
rel=profile misses the point by a mile

[00:56:01.0000] <Hixie>
so uh, can anyone explain what noresize does exactly on a <frame> element?

[00:56:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Swedish mile, even :-)

[00:56:03.0000] <hsivonen>
(Swedish one being longer than English)

[00:57:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, presumably it prevents the user from resizing the frame

[00:57:01.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, but it's been a while since I loved frames and knew all the details :)

[00:57:02.0000] <Hixie>
which frames, exactly? it seems to affect more than just the borders around the frame.

[00:58:00.0000] <annevk>
sorry

[00:58:01.0000] <Hixie>
lord, html4 is so bad

[00:58:02.0000] <Hixie>
"When present, this boolean attribute tells the user agent that the frame window must not be resizeable"

[00:58:03.0000] <Hixie>
there's a must!

[00:58:04.0000] <Hixie>
i've no idea what the must means, but there is one!

[00:58:05.0000] <Hixie>
an implementation requirement, no less

[00:58:06.0000] <annevk>
http://www.htmlcodetutorial.com/frames/_FRAME_NORESIZE.html

[00:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
(...for rendering)

[00:59:01.0000] <annevk>
guess you can't implement HTML4 on top of a table then

[00:59:02.0000] <annevk>
or what was that joke again?

[00:59:03.0000] <Hixie>
i already read that page

[00:59:04.0000] <Hixie>
and no, a table can't resize anything

[00:59:05.0000] <Hixie>
so that's fine

[00:59:06.0000] <Hixie>
it still complies

[01:01:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me tries to get IE to let him resize a frame, any frame, so that he can test which frames IE doesn't let him resize when he sets the attribute

[01:02:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, IIRC, noresize prevents the user from moving any frame border surrounding that frame.

[01:02:01.0000] <Hixie>
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cframeset%20cols%3D%221*%2C2*%2C1*%22%3E%3Cframe%20src%3Ddocument%3E%3Cframeset%20rows%3D%221*%2C1*%22%3E%3Cframe%20src%3Ddocument%3E%3Cframeset%20cols%3D%221*%2C1*%22%3E%3Cframe%20src%3Ddocument%3E%3Cframe%20src%3Ddocument%3E%3C%2Fframeset%3E%3C%2Fframeset%3E%3Cframe%20src%3Ddocument%3E%3C%2Fframeset%3E

[01:02:02.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: it seems to affect other borders too, especially in the case of nested framesets

[01:02:03.0000] <Hixie>
it may be that i decide that's a bug i'm going to ignore, though

[01:04:00.0000] <Lachy>
which other borders?  In my tests, it only affected borders of that frame itself

[01:04:01.0000] <Hixie>
(nsFrameSetFrame.cpp has some pretty ridiculous code)

[01:04:02.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: let's see

[01:05:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: first, in IE, none of the borders in that example resize for me at all.

[01:06:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh, hm, no, i think you're right (testing webkit here)

[01:06:01.0000] <Hixie>
ok

[01:06:02.0000] <Lachy>
I'm testing Firefox and Opera

[01:06:03.0000] <Lachy>
Opera seems to be having trouble dealing with frames in live dom viewer

[01:06:04.0000] <Lachy>
I got it to crash

[01:07:00.0000] <Lachy>
gotta go, back soon.

[01:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah it crashed for me early on and i didn't go back :-)

[01:09:00.0000] <annevk>
like anyone cares if <frameset> makes a browser crash

[01:09:01.0000] <annevk>
we call it a feature

[01:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
crashes are often security bugs, and are at the very least denial of service bugs

[01:11:00.0000] <Hixie>
woohoo, i finished speccing frames

[01:15:00.0000] <annevk>
your sarcasm detector is in need of sleep :)

[01:15:01.0000] <Hixie>
:-P

[01:15:02.0000] <Hixie>
i blame frames

[01:18:00.0000] <annevk>
wow, does Dreamweaver really use "browse" for profile="", that's funny

[01:21:00.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: <font> isn't obsolete for ideological reasons, it's obsolete because it leads to media-dependent page design.

[01:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
(which leads to a poor user experience)

[01:23:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: you get the same design unless you can send media independence ninjas to remove a font color picker from every authoring tool starting with dreamweaver and word

[01:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
that's why <font> was allowed for wysiwyg uas for a whole

[01:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
people (including you) didn't like that approach

[01:24:02.0000] <Hixie>
s/whole/while/

[01:24:03.0000] <hsivonen>
I didn't, yes.

[01:24:04.0000] <hsivonen>
But it's not like people who don't use GUI tools would do <font face> instead of CSS these days

[01:24:05.0000] <Hixie>
right now the state of the art in editor UA design unfortunately doesn't really have answers for writing accessible media-independent documents.

[01:25:00.0000] <hsivonen>
so I think it's unlikely that allowing wysiwygism as conforming would regress non-wysiwyg authoring practices

[01:25:01.0000] <Hixie>
i wish i could share your optimism

[01:25:02.0000] <annevk>
making <font> conforming would make many people upset

[01:26:00.0000] <annevk>
in whatever form you pick

[01:26:01.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: yes

[01:26:02.0000] <annevk>
as it is now only a few people complain

[01:26:03.0000] <annevk>
that's not really good criteria though :)

[01:26:04.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: so is the policy for HTML4 features checking the level of complaints?

[01:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
that isn't the criteria for any feature, as far as i'm concerned

[01:28:00.0000] <jwalden>
annevk: dunno if you can answer, but why doesn't 10a1 include <video> support?  there was a test build way back that did support it, and I was surprised to see it gone when I picked up 10a1 recently

[01:29:00.0000] <annevk>
jwalden, our test build only had the simple features, not the advanced API

[01:29:01.0000] <jwalden>
ah

[01:29:02.0000] <annevk>
jwalden, we are in process of completing our implementation though and it will likely be in the one after 10 though you never know :)

[01:29:03.0000] <jwalden>
I can understand that, wanting to do it right rather than halfway

[01:30:00.0000] <jwalden>
cool

[01:32:00.0000] <virtuelv>
/me quite liked the idea of training an army of media/device independence ninjas

[01:50:00.0000] <annevk>
http://code.google.com/p/es-operating-system/

[01:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'm mostly down to form controls now

[01:52:01.0000] <Hixie>
but i guess i'll do those tomorrow

[01:56:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, wouldn't blockquote, figure { margin:1em 40px } be better?

[01:57:00.0000] <annevk>
seems to me <section> also needs margin:1em 0 or equivalent

[01:57:01.0000] <Lachy>
hmm, Rob's suggesting the use of aural stylesheets. I wasn't aware that there were any implementations of those in screen readers.

[01:59:00.0000] <annevk>
I thought Emacspeak did

[02:01:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me wonders how many users emacsspeak actually has

[02:02:00.0000] <jgraham>
Although I guess there might be a strong correlation with people interested in reading the HTML5 spec

[02:05:00.0000] <Lachy>
the other issue is that letting authors specify aural presentation isn't likely to end up with great results because the vast majority have very little understanding of the concepts involved and are unlikely to know enough to specify appropriate values

[02:06:00.0000] <Lachy>
it's better to leave such things to the experienced people developing the text to speech systems

[02:06:01.0000] <jgraham>
Indeed.

[02:28:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me finally bothers to install Py3

[02:57:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: For any good reason?

[03:05:00.0000] <annevk>
I'm not really sure what to tell RB. XML does codepoint comparison, not Unicode Normalization, period. See all XML parsers...

[03:15:00.0000] <jgraham>
annevk: Pointer? Can you just ask him for proof by example? e.g. make a testcase and show how expat, libxml2, etc act?

[03:15:01.0000] <jgraham>
See if he can find any library that does normalization?

[03:16:00.0000] <annevk>
he's arguing from his interpretation of the Unicode spec...

[03:16:01.0000] <annevk>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0149.html

[03:16:02.0000] <Lachy>
annevk, I wouldn't even bother trying to convince him.

[03:16:03.0000] <annevk>
it's like debating the semantics of HTML4 tables with him, I've the feeling

[03:17:00.0000] <annevk>
yeah, wasn't planning spending more time on this one, apart from maybe asking the XML Core WG, though maybe zcorpan can do that now :)

[03:18:00.0000] <Lachy>
when did zcorpan join the XML Core WG?

[03:18:01.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: This week. Yesterday maybe?

[03:20:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hmm, i thought display:table would be a nice default style for <figure>

[03:21:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: ^

[03:24:00.0000] <zcorpan>
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cstyle%3Efigure%20%7B%20display%3Atable%3B%20margin%3A0%2040px%20%7D%20figure%20%3E%20div%20%7B%20text-align%3Acenter%20%7D%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%3EFoo%20bar%20baz%3C%2Fp%3E%0D%0A%3Cfigure%3E%3Cimg%20src%3Dimage%3E%3Cdiv%3EFoo%20bar%20baz%3C%2Fdiv%3E%3C%2Ffigure%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%3EFoo%20bar%20baz%3C%2Fp%3E

[03:28:00.0000] <Lachy>
zcorpan, styling figure with display:table and legend with display:table-caption has some nice benefits, like being able to set caption-side too

[03:28:01.0000] <zcorpan>
Lachy: having display:table-caption by default makes it always appear on top by default

[03:29:00.0000] <zcorpan>
unless there's a rule figure > legend:last-child { caption-side:bottom }

[03:30:00.0000] <annevk>
maybe display:inline-block ?

[03:30:01.0000] <zcorpan>
annevk: for figure?

[03:30:02.0000] <annevk>
ja

[03:30:03.0000] <zcorpan>
i wouldn't expect it to render inline with other text...

[03:33:00.0000] <zcorpan>
actually it would maybe be nice if figure shrink-wrapped ignoring the <legend>

[03:33:01.0000] <zcorpan>
because i think usually the legend is no wider than the figure

[03:37:00.0000] <annevk>
maybe figure { width:min-intrinsic }

[03:37:01.0000] <annevk>
or whatever the latest version is

[03:44:00.0000] <heycam>
/me ponders the significance of the destinations listed on http://70.32.90.124/images/ajira_boardpass.jpg

[03:46:00.0000] <annevk>
http://tantek.com/log/2006/06.html#d17t2231 via http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/02wdn/slides

[04:40:00.0000] <myakura>
it's kinda surprising, but rather interesting to see that <h1> isn't closed by <p> in webkit http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api/disposition-of-comments.html

[04:41:00.0000] <myakura>
or html5 defines so?

[04:41:01.0000] <annevk>
Validator.nu does that too

[04:42:00.0000] <myakura>
interesting.

[04:42:01.0000] <annevk>
seems correct per HTML5 on first glance

[04:43:00.0000] <jgraham>
html5 changed here recently

[04:43:01.0000] <zcorpan>
ie nests the p

[04:43:02.0000] <zcorpan>
jgraham: i thought that was about nested headings

[04:45:00.0000] <annevk>
/me changes topic to 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'

[04:45:01.0000] <jgraham>
zcorpan: Oh, you could be right

[04:45:02.0000] <zcorpan>
/me fails to see where http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api/disposition-of-comments.html has <h1><p>

[04:47:00.0000] <zcorpan>
myakura: ah, it has <h1></h2>

[04:47:01.0000] <zcorpan>
myakura: the </h2> should close the h1

[04:48:00.0000] <zcorpan>
surprising that webkit fails to do so :)

[04:48:01.0000] <myakura>
zcorpan: :)

[05:15:00.0000] <Lachy>
oh, I'll fix that

[05:16:00.0000] <Lachy>
fixed

[05:42:00.0000] <Philip`>
"Reducing keystrokes helps with legibility of the code" - that's why Perl is so much more legible than Python

[05:47:00.0000] <myakura>
compares "getElementsBy*******" to "$"

[05:47:01.0000] <myakura>
yeah that makes sense :)

[05:51:00.0000] <jgraham>
The proposal seems to have the rather significant disadvantage of being incompatible with DOM and CSS

[06:48:00.0000] <annevk>
is making requirements on servers useful?

[06:48:01.0000] <annevk>
i guess it's the same as author reqs

[06:48:02.0000] <annevk>
opinions?

[06:50:00.0000] <Lachy>
annevk, in which spec?

[06:50:01.0000] <Lachy>
I'm guessing you mean in CORS

[06:52:00.0000] <annevk>
yes

[06:52:01.0000] <Lachy>
sometimes it's appropriate to specify server requirements, depending on the circumstances

[06:52:02.0000] <Lachy>
HTTP specifies server requiements, for instance

[06:52:03.0000] <annevk>
i guess i'll just do it and see what happens

[07:20:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: the Origin draft specifies requirements on servers, FWIW

[07:22:00.0000] <annevk>
yeah, I'm doing it too now

[07:24:00.0000] <annevk>
still need to say that UAs actually need to use the ABNF for parsing and such

[07:25:00.0000] <annevk>
and fix a bunch of other non-normative things :/

[07:26:00.0000] <annevk>
i don't really like non-normative stuff; it's hard to tell whether it's correct

[07:28:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me wonders if Google Latitude has anything to do with the Jaiku team and whether it works together with Yahoo! FireEagle

[07:33:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I wonder if Philip TAYLOR realizes that my native language isn't invariant under Unicode normalization

[07:34:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: Writing from the ground new code; need stuff only in 2.6+, so may as well go for 3

[07:41:00.0000] <Lachy>
I wonder if anyone has done a study to see how many class names and IDs use non-ASCII characters, and if any, how many of those potentially suffer from normalisation issues

[07:43:00.0000] <Lachy>
Philip`, http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/index appears to be broken. Is there a more updated version of that survey that's isnt broken?

[07:43:01.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: How are you getting on with html5lib and Py3?

[07:44:00.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: Oops, that shouldn't be broken

[07:45:00.0000] <Philip`>
Oh, yes it should

[07:45:01.0000] <Philip`>
Well, it wasn't directly intentional

[07:46:00.0000] <Philip`>
(I turned off Postgres because I didn't think I was using it for anything and wanted to save memory)

[07:46:01.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: It should work now

[07:47:00.0000] <Lachy>
Philip`, does that one have all the most recent data, despite having 2007-07-17 in the URL?

[07:47:01.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: No, it has data from 2007-07-17

[07:48:00.0000] <Lachy>
where's the latest one?

[07:48:01.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: See e.g. the first paragraph

[07:48:02.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: It's not online

[07:48:03.0000] <Lachy>
oh, I thought you had published more recent data

[07:48:04.0000] <Philip`>
(That online database thing is unscalable when I have 130K pages)

[07:48:05.0000] <Lachy>
that doesn't appear to have collected any data on class and id values

[07:48:06.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: html5lib seems to mostly work in python 3 for some definition of mostly which means "all the bits I cared enough to get working and only if you don't do certian things like try to pass it a file not opened in binary mode"

[07:49:00.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: I've published random bits of data, a few indexed at http://philip.html5.org/data.html and the rest just mentioned on IRC or mailing lists

[07:49:01.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: I could get a list of class and id attribute values from my latest data fairly easily

[07:50:00.0000] <Lachy>
ok, I'm specifically looking for an answer to my previous question about non-ASCII values and potential normalisation issues

[07:51:00.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: It would probably be hard to get meaningful results, since I don't have many pages from interesting languages

[07:53:00.0000] <Lachy>
ok

[09:28:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hmm, maybe making an XML file containing an <attribute uri="..." element="..." name="..." value="..."/> for every single attribute in all my pages wasn't the bestest idea ever

[09:29:00.0000] <Philip`>
since the output file is about 5GB

[09:34:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hooray for gzip

[09:34:01.0000] <Philip`>
Now only ~300MB, and only takes about thirty seconds to grep

[09:45:00.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: Out of 130K pages, I see 277 with non-ASCII id values, and 260 with non-ASCII class values

[09:46:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me checks whether any of his code is silently normalising stuff

[09:59:00.0000] <rubys1>
"The server at wiki.whatwg.org is taking too long to respond." -- anybody else see this?

[09:59:01.0000] <takkaria>
aye

[10:01:00.0000] <yorick>
why isn't event.dataTranfer available during a dragover event?

[10:08:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me finds that his code wasn't normalising stuff, but he was forgetting to decode the input as UTF-8 before testing whether it was normalised

[10:08:01.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: As far as I can see, all of the non-ASCII id and class values are in NFC

[10:09:00.0000] <Philip`>
(Some are also in NFD, and NFKC, and NFKD, but they're all still NFC too)

[10:22:00.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: http://philip.html5.org/data/non-ascii-class-values.txt / http://philip.html5.org/data/non-ascii-id-values.txt

[10:24:00.0000] <Philip`>
(Obvious problems are the lack of data for most interesting languages, and frequent encoding detection failures)

[14:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me considers defining the rendering section using xbl

[14:43:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, for which elements would you need XBL?

[14:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
<details>, all the form controls...

[14:43:02.0000] <Lachy>
ok

[15:07:00.0000] <Philip`>
That doesn't sound like necessarily the most helpful way of defining it, since few people know XBL and nobody's going to really implement it with XBL

[15:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
actually implementing it with xbl has been on the long term plans for mozilla for years now

[15:08:01.0000] <Philip`>
and I'd guess it introduces constraints that interfere with the likely goal of making the definition understandable

[15:09:00.0000] <Hixie>
i have an idea of a half-way solution that might work

[15:09:01.0000] <Philip`>
"long terms plans ... for years now" doesn't convince me that anybody is really going to do that ;-)

[15:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
the same could have been said for the rendering section in html5

[15:10:01.0000] <Hixie>
yet here we are

[15:12:00.0000] <Philip`>
One example of long term plans being carried out still doesn't convince me that other long term plans will be :-)

[15:12:01.0000] <Hixie>
:-)

[15:16:00.0000] <Lachy>
it's unfortunate that browser vendors haven't started implementing XBL yet.

[15:18:00.0000] <Philip`>
Presumably it's much less important to their customers than rewriting their JS and regexp engines yet again

[15:21:00.0000] <Lachy>
yeah, making existing web sites work better is generally a higher priority than providing new toys for developers to play with

[15:22:00.0000] <Lachy>
I wish Philip TAYLOR (not you Philip`) would be more specific about which features he wants to know the justifications for

[15:22:01.0000] <Hixie>
all of them

[15:23:00.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: If he was specific, that might result in someone spending time finding and explaining the justifications to him, so maybe it's best if he's not specific

[15:23:01.0000] <Lachy>
well, ok, but writing up all of that would be a huge effort. I mean, he could at least let us know which ones he wants to know the most so we can priorise

[15:23:02.0000] <Lachy>
*prioritise

[15:24:00.0000] <Lachy>
*prioritize

[15:24:01.0000] <Lachy>
/me can't spell today

[15:25:00.0000] <Hixie>
i wish the people complaining would volunteer to do something once in a while

[15:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: see the spec now to see what i ended up doing (w.r.t. xbl)

[15:28:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: Oh, I just wanted to complain, I didn't want to actually look at the spec and give constructive feedback

[15:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
:-)

[15:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
dude the other pt is leaking into you

[15:29:01.0000] <Hixie>
careful

[15:29:02.0000] <Hixie>
:-P

[15:29:03.0000] <heycam>
Hixie, did something happen to the whatwg.org styles too?

[15:29:04.0000] <Hixie>
?

[15:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
lots of things have happened, can you be more specific? :-)

[15:30:01.0000] <heycam>
the background green of element definitions was gone, and the background white of the status marker boxes on the left was transparent

[15:30:02.0000] <heycam>
but i just reloaded the page and it's fine...

[15:30:03.0000] <Hixie>
oh i temporarily had a stray <style> element in the document

[15:31:00.0000] <heycam>
oh, k

[15:31:01.0000] <Hixie>
you happened to reload during the 5 seconds that it was broken

[15:31:02.0000] <heycam>
=)

[15:33:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, is the details binding link supposed to link to a binding that hasn't yet been written? It's currently linking to the element, which is confusing

[15:33:01.0000] <Hixie>
oops, not supposed to be a link at all

[15:36:00.0000] <Lachy>
ok, so you're just going to rely in the description of the binding in the prose then?

[15:36:01.0000] <Lachy>
and the binding itself is imaginary

[15:36:02.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[15:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
woo, the end is in sight

[15:38:01.0000] <Hixie>
only a few more days of this

[15:38:02.0000] <Lachy>
really? I thought you once told me the rendering section was going to be huge and a significant amount of effort. I didn't think that meant just a week's worth of work

[15:38:03.0000] <Hixie>
i split the rendering section in two, rendering and obsolete elements

[15:39:00.0000] <Lachy>
oh

[15:39:01.0000] <Hixie>
a lot of the effort went into the obsolete elements section

[15:39:02.0000] <Hixie>
also, this IS a lot of work! :-P

[15:39:03.0000] <Hixie>
have you seen the frameset section?

[15:39:04.0000] <Hixie>
sheesh

[15:39:05.0000] <Hixie>
:-P

[15:39:06.0000] <Hixie>
(i'm getting pretty good at cranking out this stuff; a few years ago, this would be taking me way longer)

[15:40:00.0000] <Lachy>
yeah, I noticed you've been getting faster. I've been having difficuty keeping up with many of your changes

[15:41:00.0000] <Lachy>
*slow down!*

[15:41:01.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: Maybe you're just slowing down in your old age

[15:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
don't worry, you'll get better at keeping up :-P

[15:43:01.0000] <Lachy>
I'm not old, you young whipper snapper!... Oh, and Get Off The Lawn! ;-)

[15:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
didn't windows have dialogs with a button at the bottom that said "More details" or something which when clicked would grow the dialog and show more details?

[15:49:01.0000] <Hixie>
i can't find any examples in my xp install anymore

[15:49:02.0000] <Lachy>
OS X have those

[15:50:00.0000] <Lachy>
they're called disclosure triangles

[15:50:01.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: Like http://www.juergentreml.de/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/long-copy.jpg ?

[15:50:02.0000] <Lachy>
I think many apps on windows do lots of different things for that kind of UI

[15:52:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: Also like http://i.technet.microsoft.com/Cc700803.authen01(en-us,TechNet.10).gif ?

[15:52:01.0000] <Hixie>
the latter is the closest to what i meant

[15:52:02.0000] <Hixie>
i specifically don't mean actual triangles though

[15:53:00.0000] <Hixie>
i mean a button with text in it

[15:53:01.0000] <Philip`>
/me doesn't remember any dialogs where that text is actually inside the button

[15:55:00.0000] <Hixie>
well then good, that means i don't need anything but an example of a triangle in the spec

[15:56:00.0000] <Philip`>
Then again, I've never actually used XP on my own computers, so my memory probably isn't a good guide

[15:57:00.0000] <Hixie>
bbiab


2009-02-06
[17:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok how on earth do i spec <fieldset>

[17:25:00.0000] <jcranmer>
Hixie: simple

[17:25:01.0000] <jcranmer>
"the specifics of this element are left undefined"

[17:26:00.0000] <jcranmer>
"all browsers must render this element in accord with the Mosaic Browser, build <what is the build date of Mosaic?>"

[17:29:00.0000] <othermaciej>
does anyone still use <fieldset>?

[17:29:01.0000] <othermaciej>
maybe my view is colored by using a Mac, where you pretty much never would use the equivalent control in a dialog these days

[17:29:02.0000] <othermaciej>
but I don't think I see it much in web UI either

[17:31:00.0000] <jwalden_>
/me has (gratuitously?) used it once or twice

[17:35:00.0000] <Hixie>
jcranmer: the whole point of this section is to not do that :-P

[17:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: are you willing to drop support? if not, then i want to spec it. :-)

[17:36:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me does <hr> instead

[17:37:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: oh, I'm sure its behavior needs to be specified

[17:37:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: and probably people would complain if it were to be made nonconforming

[17:37:02.0000] <Hixie>
people complain about _anything_ we make non-conforming

[17:37:03.0000] <othermaciej>
but all that being said, it still seems obsolete for modern Web development

[17:37:04.0000] <Hixie>
(people have even complained about <meta scheme=""> being made non-conforming)

[17:55:00.0000] <Hixie>
wow, the default styles for <fieldset> in IE8 are terrible

[18:38:00.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie, othermaciej, people still use fieldset

[18:39:00.0000] <sayrer>
I last saw it generated by mailchimp.com's signup forms

[18:39:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I know it is used at more than trivial frequency

[18:39:02.0000] <othermaciej>
it definitely needs to be implemented to have a browser that is compatible with the Web

[18:40:00.0000] <othermaciej>
but probably new content should be discouraged from using it, since it is based on dated ideas of HI design

[18:45:00.0000] <sayrer>
I just added a fieldset to my last blog post

[18:45:01.0000] <sayrer>
it made a box

[18:46:00.0000] <sayrer>
but the lines didn't touch

[18:46:01.0000] <sayrer>
nice

[00:48:00.0000] <annevk>
ooh, design principles discussion

[00:48:01.0000] <annevk>
I was hoping to not edit that document any further

[00:52:00.0000] <Lachy>
annevk, it would be nice to get it published at some point

[00:59:00.0000] <annevk>
it is published

[01:03:00.0000] <Lachy>
I mean finished

[01:06:00.0000] <annevk>
how would that help?

[01:14:00.0000] <othermaciej>
annevk: I don't see anyone really asking to change it or debating the contents

[01:15:00.0000] <othermaciej>
(except for I guess the vaguely proposed Baby Steps and Build from Justification principles)

[01:15:01.0000] <annevk>
yeah, oh well, I just deleted the e-mails :)

[01:28:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me in unfamiliar with this concerpt of delete as applied to eamils

[01:28:01.0000] <jgraham>
wow, that was even worse typing than usual

[01:38:00.0000] <zcorpan>
othermaciej: i thought <fieldset> was helpful for people with ATs to navigate in forms, but maybe <h1>-<h6> that are descendants of forms could be a good-enough replacement?

[01:44:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me has a tendency to use fieldset even though it looks pretty ugly for maybe-cargo-cult reasons

[01:46:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Validator.nu uses fieldset

[01:47:00.0000] <jgraham>
http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=3 talks about fieldset. The JAWS 8 UI for it seems pretty miserable to me

[01:48:00.0000] <jgraham>
http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-fieldset-legends/

[01:48:01.0000] <jgraham>
It sounds increasingly like <fieldset> causes more problems than it solves

[01:49:00.0000] <jgraham>
(at least in some random version of JAWS)

[01:54:00.0000] <zcorpan>
it's interesting how people's reaction to weird behavior in software often is "change our habits to make the behavior appear less weird" instead of "contact the vendor and make them fix their weird behavior"

[01:55:00.0000] <annevk>
they're not QA, they want to make things work now

[01:56:00.0000] <jgraham>
zcorpan: Presumably they see changing their behaviour as something simple and easilly achievable whereas changing the software is hard

[01:56:01.0000] <annevk>
this might be were some of the clashes on public-html are coming from

[01:57:00.0000] <jgraham>
Or they percieve (especially on "moral" issues like accessibility) that the "experts" who  write the software are right and it is they who is making the mistake

[01:57:01.0000] <hsivonen>
see also internationalization :-(

[02:04:00.0000] <jgraham>
In the specific case of accessibility software, everytime anyone suggests changing the software, someone says that that is useless since the actual end users can't afford new versions anyway and hard since the vendors are difficult to contact

[02:08:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: did you see the unicode normalization thread that revolves around some text input methods failing to canonically reorder combining marks if keystrokes aren't in the canonical order?

[02:09:00.0000] <hsivonen>
despite Japanese input methods everywhere and OS X European input methods performing more complex tricks

[02:09:01.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: I think I saw part of the thread but not that part

[02:09:02.0000] <jgraham>
(maybe not the start if that was the start)

[02:32:00.0000] <BenMillard>
jgraham, what seemed "miserable" about the JAWS UI for <fieldset>+<legend>?

[02:34:00.0000] <BenMillard>
zcorpan, headings in forms make sense but rarely happen, from what I've seen. They wouldn't need special treatment when the heading level is chosen sensibly by the author.

[02:36:00.0000] <BenMillard>
othermaciej, what is so dated about <fieldset><legend> that it should be discouraged? Just the way it looks or something deeper?

[02:36:01.0000] <Philip`>
/me has used <fieldset><legend><input type=checkbox onclick=toggle(fields)> Stuff</legend><div id=fields>...forms fields...</div></fieldset> and thinks it works reasonably nicely

[02:36:02.0000] <jgraham>
BenMillard: If I have a fieldset with 30 fields and a legend like Advanced options, heading "advanced options foo, advanced options bar, advanced options baz" and so on seems intolerably verbose

[02:36:03.0000] <jgraham>
s/heading/hearing/

[02:37:00.0000] <BenMillard>
jgraham, the context is helpful when you can't see the screen. :)

[02:37:01.0000] <BenMillard>
jgraham, you can change the configuration so it only gets read at start via verbosity controls.

[02:37:02.0000] <jgraham>
BenMillard: I am totally in favour of making the context *avaliable*

[02:37:03.0000] <BenMillard>
jgraham, the default is to read it out on every control to help novice and intermediate users understand the context of the current control.

[02:38:00.0000] <BenMillard>
jgraham, it's also helpful for users with short-term memory difficulties or certain learning disorders.

[02:38:01.0000] <zcorpan>
it appeared to me that jaws would run the legend and label together as if they were the same sentence

[02:38:02.0000] <jgraham>
BenMillard: It doesn't seem like novice and intermediate users would necesssarily be the ones who would need the help. But they would be the ones who wouldn't be able to switch off the verbosity

[02:39:00.0000] <jgraham>
Oh and hat zcorpan said :)

[02:39:01.0000] <jgraham>
*what

[02:39:02.0000] <BenMillard>
jgraham, what makes you think novices aren't helped by it?

[02:40:00.0000] <BenMillard>
zcorpan, the Paciello article makes that text bold so many it's a different voice, or followed by a pause.

[02:40:01.0000] <BenMillard>
zcorpan, if it isn't then it will still tend to make sense, assuming sensible text was used of course. :)

[02:41:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Ergh. rss-public are trying to put RSS into a namespace for other vocabularies to make use of it.

[02:41:01.0000] <jgraham>
BenMillard: Not that they're not helped, that it's not necessarily *more* helpful to them. It seems like you would only need the repition if you had difficulty retaining information about context in your head. That will of course improve a bit with practice but seems more like an innate thing

[02:42:00.0000] <BenMillard>
zcorpan, after changing settings it looks like Window Eyes puts an announcement between the <legend> and the susbsequent <label>.

[02:42:01.0000] <jgraham>
BenMillard: e.g. raeding all table headers on every cell would also be too verbose

[02:43:00.0000] <BenMillard>
jgraham, understanding context is the most difficult part of using a screen reader.

[02:45:00.0000] <jgraham>
BenMillard: But you know it's a form control and you know what the label is. How often will you also need to know what the fieldset legend is? I certianly wouldn't expect my visual browwser to keep displaying that once it has scrolled offscreen

[02:46:00.0000] <jgraham>
The only case I can think of where it ought to be a problem is where you have the same labels on a number of controls in different fieldsets. But that doesn't seem like the common case.

[02:47:00.0000] <BenMillard>
jgraham, it's a re-assuring guide. Exactly what novice and intermediate users find useful, from the tests I've seen.

[02:47:01.0000] <jgraham>
BenMillard: Well if you have test data you can share, that might be more convincing :)

[02:48:00.0000] <BenMillard>
jgraham, I don't think those tests got onto the web; we were subcontracting.

[02:48:01.0000] <BenMillard>
s/subcontracting/subcontracters/

[02:49:00.0000] <BenMillard>
jgraham, if you have test data which shows the opposite, perhaps your POV would be more convincing? :P

[02:49:01.0000] <jgraham>
I still wonder if you wouldn't be better off with a "context" key that intelligently tried to give you context about your current location e.g. from table headers, fieldset, heading elements, etc.

[02:49:02.0000] <jgraham>
BenMillard: Of course. 

[02:50:00.0000] <BenMillard>
jgraham, there are a variety of approaches between how verbosely ATs announce forms. IBM's HAL, for example, would only announce it at the start of the form (iirc).

[02:50:01.0000] <BenMillard>
(where "it" is the <legend> text)

[02:51:00.0000] <BenMillard>
jgraham, I think JAWS has a key like that. I guess they found users reminding themselves of the context of form controls was the common case, so they made it automatic.

[02:51:01.0000] <jgraham>
BenMillard: (although I do have a RNIB article that makes it sound like a problem that authors have to work around)

[02:51:02.0000] <BenMillard>
jgraham, software has bugs. Film at 11. :)

[02:53:00.0000] <BenMillard>
jgraham & othermaciej, even if you disagree with <legend> being announced on every control in one product, announcing <legend> at some point (such as when a user queries for context in the way jgraham suggests) still gives useful context. And so the use of <fieldset><legend> is A Good Thing and maybe should be done more, not less.

[03:14:00.0000] <othermaciej>
my objection to <fieldset> isn't based on accessibility but rather on the fact that the style of visual design that groups controls into fieldsets is no longer done

[03:20:00.0000] <wilhelm>
Sure, the visual design is dated, but grouping form controls with <fieldset> still makes sense. See for example http://www.bakketun.net/dev/js/tabbed-pane/ .

[03:26:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me is glad it has started snowing again in a way that is easy to distinguish from rain

[03:26:01.0000] <hendry>
wilhelm: tabs seem a little dated to me too

[03:29:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me is seeing more snow moving upwards than downwards

[03:38:00.0000] <zcorpan>
http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=4043

[03:39:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: looks like we have a new attractive nuisance :-(

[03:41:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: though the examples in the spec suck

[03:42:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: indeed.

[03:42:01.0000] <hsivonen>
/me files a spec bug

[03:53:00.0000] <hsivonen>
does anyone have test cases for heuristic encoding detection?

[03:54:00.0000] <hsivonen>
even markp's Python port of chardet doesn't come with test cases, even though markp's projects usually do

[03:56:00.0000] <annevk>
is there a spec? :)

[04:01:00.0000] <jgraham>
http://diveintopython3.org/case-study-porting-chardet-to-python-3.html suggests that there should be test cases

[04:01:01.0000] <zcorpan>
/me looks at http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar#Example and wonders if it's possible to say <a href="url">summary</a> instead of <a href="url">url</a> <span>summary</span>

[04:03:00.0000] <zcorpan>
it seems not

[04:03:01.0000] <zcorpan>
that sucks

[04:04:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: ok, I revise my question: s/test cases/demos/

[04:06:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: can't you use the input to v.nu and compare the chardet result with content-type/<meta charset>?

[04:07:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: do you mean mining the v.nu logs for interesting CJK and Cyrillic pages?

[04:08:00.0000] <annevk>
or reverse engineer the relevant Gecko code just like Mozilla did

[04:08:01.0000] <annevk>
s/Mozilla/Mark/

[04:08:02.0000] <hsivonen>
what I want to do is check if I've integrated the Mozilla code properly

[04:23:00.0000] <Lachy>
I'm trying to come up with brief, author-friendly element descriptions for the HTML 5 Reference. I've extracted all of the descriptions from the spec to start with, but now I need to revise them where necessary...

[04:24:00.0000] <Lachy>
can anyone suggest less technical way of describing the base element than this, from the spec:

[04:24:01.0000] <Lachy>
"The <code>base</code> element allows authors to specify the <span>document base URL</span> for the purposes of <span title="resolve a url">resolving relative URLs</span>, and the name of the default <span>browsing context</span> for the purposes of <span>following hyperlinks</span>."

[04:25:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Lachy: http://www.google.com/search?q=html+tutorial+base

[04:26:00.0000] <Lachy>
thanks

[04:26:01.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: You probably want to say something about the fact that usually delative URLs are resolved against the document location; the base element provides a way of resolving URLs against some other location

[04:26:02.0000] <jgraham>
*relative

[04:27:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: do you have a list of pages from CJK and Cyrillic-related domains but without encoding info?

[04:32:00.0000] <Lachy>
"The <code>base</code> element allows authors to specify base URL that is used to resolve relative links, and the name of the default target for opening links."

[04:32:01.0000] <Lachy>
s/relative links/relative URLs/

[04:33:00.0000] <Lachy>
(btw, these descriptions need to be really short, one or two sentences. There will be much more verbose descriptions provided as well, but this is for the summary boxes)

[04:33:01.0000] <beowulf>
perhaps use a word other than base to describe 'base'? root? 

[04:34:00.0000] <beowulf>
or just 'to specify the URL that is used'

[04:42:00.0000] <Lachy>
beowulf, I don't understand what the problem with the word 'base' is?

[04:44:00.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: The element is called "base" it sounds somewhat circular

[04:45:00.0000] <Lachy>
the purpose of these descriptions to succinctly describe the purpose of an element. I don't think a beginner with no prior knowledge needs to be able to fully comprehend it. Instead, these particular descriptions should serve as a useful reminder for people just using this as a reference manual

[04:45:01.0000] <beowulf>
Lachy: i'm probably being pedantic, but if the sentence explaining the term works withoutt using the term then it would be clearer, imo

[04:45:02.0000] <Lachy>
there will be other more verbose descriptions explaining things for beginners with no prior knowledge in addition to these short descriptions

[04:46:00.0000] <beowulf>
i am fairly safely ignored :)

[04:46:01.0000] <Lachy>
This uses the term "base URL" in the description http://reference.sitepoint.com/html/base

[04:46:02.0000] <Lachy>
the problem with removing the word base is that I can't think of a suitable, unambiguous replacement

[04:58:00.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: I think you think of base as sutiable unambiguoius because you are already familiar with the concept of a base URL

[05:01:00.0000] <jgraham>
Just removing the word base already makes your sentence clearer

[05:02:00.0000] <Lachy>
jgraham, as I said, these particular descriptions don't need to be suitable for beginners with no prior knowledge. The audience for these descriptions is expected to be at least somewhat familar with the concepts already and are just using them as a quick reminder

[05:05:00.0000] <jgraham>
Still "The <base> element allows authors to specify a URL against which relative links are resolved [...]" is any less clear than the same sentence with the word "base" before URL

[05:09:00.0000] <Philip`>
"The <base> elements specifies a ..." is less verbose

[05:09:01.0000] <Philip`>
*element

[05:13:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Philip`: it doesn't need to specify a base url, it could specify a base target instead (or as well)

[05:13:01.0000] <Lachy>
this is what I have now:

[05:13:02.0000] <Lachy>
The <code>base</code> is for specifying a base URL against which relative links will be resolved, and the name of the default target for opening links and form submissions.

[05:14:00.0000] <Lachy>
s/is/element is/

[05:15:00.0000] <Lachy>
I've left "base URL" in there because I think, once the more verbose descriptions are written that explain the concept, it will be fine. But I can always revisit the issue later if it doesn't work out

[05:16:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Lachy: seems good enough, along with examples

[05:16:01.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: I can give a list of URLs in certain TLDs (I guess .ru, .cn, anything else?) that didn't have an HTTP or meta charset a year ago

[05:29:00.0000] <Lachy>
hmm, the spec doesn't seem clear about how to handle a meta element with both name and http-equiv attributes. e.g. <meta name="description" http-equiv="Content-Type" content="...">

[05:30:00.0000] <Lachy>
unless I missed something, it should specify which takes precedence

[05:31:00.0000] <hendry>
hsivonen: is it possible to have an attribute without a value? like 'bar' in <foo bar />

[05:32:00.0000] <Lachy>
hendry, yes. There are lots of attributes that work like that in HTML5

[05:32:01.0000] <hendry>
Lachy: I thought so

[05:33:00.0000] <Lachy>
e.g. <input disabled>

[05:33:01.0000] <hendry>
I want to propose changing http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets/#the-feature-element from <feature name="http://www.w3.org/geo/api/" required="true"/>

[05:33:02.0000] <hendry>
to <feature name="http://www.w3.org/geo/api/" opt />  opt for optional, default mandatory

[05:33:03.0000] <Lachy>
no, because that's not well formed XML

[05:33:04.0000] <Lachy>
the minimised attributes are only supported in HTML, not XHTML

[05:34:00.0000] <hendry>
Lachy: ah

[05:35:00.0000] <hendry>
so <feature name="http://www.w3.org/geo/api/" optional="true" />  is a better proposal

[05:36:00.0000] <Lachy>
hendry, why do you want to change it from required=""?

[05:36:01.0000] <Lachy>
HTML5 uses <input required="required">

[05:37:00.0000] <hendry>
Lachy: because the default value I think should be mandatory. it's more much more practical. In the case where widget developers leave off required="true".

[05:38:00.0000] <hendry>
widget developers write their code with these features in mind. if they are not there, they typically will not account for that situation.

[05:39:00.0000] <hendry>
i imagine in rare cases they will make their widgets work with features the might not be there.

[05:39:01.0000] <hendry>
hence i think mandatory will better account for the majority of typical usage

[05:40:00.0000] <hendry>
did that make sense

[05:41:00.0000] <annevk>
HTML5 uses on/off for such attributes

[05:41:01.0000] <annevk>
e.g. autocomplete

[05:41:02.0000] <annevk>
(though they still have a default)

[05:41:03.0000] <Lachy>
hendry, the widget spec doesn't seem to say what the default value is if its omitted

[05:41:04.0000] <hendry>
Lachy: i assume ommitted = optional

[05:41:05.0000] <Lachy>
hendry, I assumed otherwise

[05:42:00.0000] <Lachy>
it's not safe to make assumptions like that, the spec needs to be clearer

[05:43:00.0000] <hendry>
Lachy: so you assumed with required="true", it will be required? :) ok, i'll just fire off a mail

[05:43:01.0000] <Lachy>
oh, http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets/#boolean-attribute says the default is false

[05:43:02.0000] <hendry>
fs

[05:43:03.0000] <annevk>
zcorpan, figure { width:min-intrinsic } makes more sense to me

[05:43:04.0000] <hendry>
s/so you assumed with required="true"/so you assumed withOUT required="true"

[05:43:05.0000] <zcorpan>
annevk: does that ignore the <legend>?

[05:44:00.0000] <annevk>
zcorpan, display:table seems overkill although I can't quite elaborate on what the side effects might be

[05:44:01.0000] <hendry>
/me should read what he writes before hitting enter

[05:44:02.0000] <annevk>
zcorpan, it uses the minimum intrinsic width as far as I can tell, which would be that of the image

[05:45:00.0000] <zcorpan>
annevk: what if your figure content is not an image but a <math> element or an <ul>?

[05:45:01.0000] <Lachy>
hendry, I assumed that if specified a <feature name="">, then it's more likely that the feature itself would be required. But I could be wrong, since I'm not a widget developer and I don't really understand the purpose of the feature element.

[05:45:02.0000] <annevk>
zcorpan, http://dbaron.org/css/intrinsic/ has details

[05:45:03.0000] <hendry>
Lachy: the feature element is to declare upfront the need or dependency rather on a feature like Geolocation, for the widget to function.

[05:46:00.0000] <annevk>
zcorpan, it's called min-content there

[05:46:01.0000] <zcorpan>
"the intrinsic minimum width/height"

[05:46:02.0000] <annevk>
zcorpan, though maybe max-content is better

[05:47:00.0000] <Lachy>
hendry, right, so what's the point of specifying a feature element if the feature isn't needed?

[05:47:01.0000] <zcorpan>
annevk: that would still not ignore the <legend>

[05:48:00.0000] <annevk>
it does the same as display:table for your example in Firefox

[05:48:01.0000] <annevk>
max-content, that is

[05:50:00.0000] <zcorpan>
annevk: not for the second figure

[05:50:01.0000] <annevk>
it does for me

[05:50:02.0000] <zcorpan>
url?

[05:51:00.0000] <Lachy>
http://www.iheni.com/html-5-to-the-h1-debate-rescue/

[05:51:01.0000] <annevk>
your url with "figure { display:block; margin:0 40px; width:-moz-max-content }"

[05:51:02.0000] <zcorpan>
right, the second figure has the legend on one line instead of wrapped at the bounds of the image

[05:51:03.0000] <annevk>
with "figure { display:table; margin:0 40px; }" it does not wrap at all

[05:52:00.0000] <annevk>
if you want wrap you should use width:-moz-min-content

[05:52:01.0000] <zcorpan>
you need display:table-caption on the div too

[05:52:02.0000] <zcorpan>
-moz-min-content doesn't play well with the <math> use case

[05:52:03.0000] <hendry>
Lachy: eggsactly

[05:52:04.0000] <annevk>
display:table-caption places it on top of the image...

[05:53:00.0000] <annevk>
that's annoying

[05:53:01.0000] <zcorpan>
annevk: did you read my email? :)

[05:53:02.0000] <annevk>
and also, using tables here is a hack

[05:53:03.0000] <zcorpan>
well i don't care which css declarations are used

[05:54:00.0000] <zcorpan>
my point is "I think <figure>s need a shrink-wrap width applied that ignores the <legend>."

[05:58:00.0000] <Lachy>
hendry, oh, so that's why you want it changed from required to optional?

[05:58:01.0000] <Lachy>
I mean, the attribute name

[06:08:00.0000] <hendry>
Lachy: yes, just posted on the public-webapps about it. now i need to get busy with other stuff. :)

[06:19:00.0000] <annevk>
should be pretty easy to implement howcome's stuff as JavaScript library

[06:19:01.0000] <annevk>
if you require a leading space

[06:19:02.0000] <Lachy>
annevk, do you mean the <p .foo> syntax?

[06:19:03.0000] <annevk>
just iterate through .attributes for something that starts with # or . and then parse that attribute appropriately

[06:20:00.0000] <Lachy>
sure, but I really don't think we should introduce it and make it conforming

[06:21:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: .cn, .ru, .jp, .kr and .tw would be very useful

[06:21:01.0000] <annevk>
I like it :)

[06:25:00.0000] <Lachy>
if people want to pursue it as a separate serialisation (i.e. not text/html) to be used for authoring, much like BBCode or Textile, and develop tools that pre-process it into normal HTML, then I'm fine with that. But there's no way we should change the text/html parser to support it

[06:31:00.0000] <Philip`>
It'd be even easier to implement that syntax if you require a leading space and a 'class='

[06:32:00.0000] <Lachy>
there are already so many lightweight markup languages though, with many more optimisations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lightweight_markup_languages

[06:32:01.0000] <Lachy>
there is even one that allows you to write markup using p#foo.bar syntax (but without the angle brackets).  I just can't remember what it's called

[06:33:00.0000] <Lachy>
I think Haml is the one I'm thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haml

[06:34:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me tends to agree with Philip` 

[06:37:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me is so unsurprised to find that Haml is implemented in Ruby

[06:37:01.0000] <jgraham>
Because it makes HTML look like Ruby...

[06:38:00.0000] <jgraham>
Although it's amusing that they describe it as "whitespace active" presumably because people think "whitespace sensitive == bad"

[06:42:00.0000] <annevk>
where at first I was willing to consider Unicode Normalization, it seems more and more like something that should not be dealt with at all on the browser level; there's just too much codepoint-equality-checking out there

[06:47:00.0000] <annevk>
zcorpan, btw, I believe Gecko has some selector like :first-child that does not ignore text nodes

[06:48:00.0000] <zcorpan>
annevk: ok

[06:48:01.0000] <annevk>
-moz-first-node or something

[06:48:02.0000] <annevk>
oh, bz just mentioned that :)

[06:55:00.0000] <hallvors>
is the W3C file upload validation broken? It keeps saying "Line 1, Column 0: end of document in prolog. This error may appear when the validator receives an empty document" whatever I upload. tested with Opera, Firefox and Safari...

[07:01:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: Like http://philip.html5.org/data/pages-with-no-explicit-charset-in-tlds-with-funny-alphabets.txt ?

[08:02:00.0000] <annevk>
hmm, fixing quite a few bugs in CORS

[08:02:01.0000] <annevk>
I wonder what those implementors have been doing while implementing...

[08:03:00.0000] <annevk>
I mean, it's not major holes like HTML4, but still

[08:20:00.0000] <karlcow>
hallvors_: you should ask to #validator if you have an inquiry about validators

[08:39:00.0000] <hallvors_>
karlcow: thanks, done :)

[08:56:00.0000] <mlpug>
if I manage to produce w3c widget (.wgt) is there some software that can render it in a meaningfull way? any browser does or do I need some special widget runner software?

[09:03:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Opera might, I don't know how far the current spec is from their support

[09:07:00.0000] <hasather>
Dashiva: pretty close

[10:59:00.0000] <gsnedders>
How do you get VoiceOver to actually read the page in Safari?

[12:48:00.0000] <jwalden>
annevk: note that it'd be |figure { width: min-content; }| now, not min-intrinsic (referenced spec got updated to correspond to -moz-*-intrinsic even if URL stayed the same)

[12:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
dbaron: did you say you had some non-monospace fonts available with known metrics?

[12:49:01.0000] <Hixie>
dbaron: or are all your fonts one character only (and thus always monospace by definition)

[12:50:00.0000] <dbaron>
Hixie, all my test fonts are one character only

[12:50:01.0000] <dbaron>
Hixie, but they're also generated by a pretty simple python script

[12:50:02.0000] <Hixie>
i'm trying to reverse engineer IE's <input size=""> algorithm

[12:50:03.0000] <Hixie>
i don't suppose i could steal your script by any chance?

[12:50:04.0000] <dbaron>
Hixie, I thought they used the width of a '0'

[12:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
if they use '0', they do something different for monospace vs non-monospace

[12:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
i'm trying to work out exactly what

[12:51:02.0000] <dbaron>
Hixie, http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/file/48e371648b83/layout/reftests/fonts/mark-generate.py

[12:51:03.0000] <dbaron>
Hixie, see also "raw" link

[12:51:04.0000] <Hixie>
sweet, thanks

[12:51:05.0000] <dbaron>
Hixie, there are some .svg files in the same directory

[12:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
neat

[12:52:01.0000] <dbaron>
Hixie, I have had some issues with underline offset metrics, on Mac at least...

[12:52:02.0000] <dbaron>
Hixie, although I'm not sure if that's related to our code adjusting underline offsets based on character extents, or something else...

[12:52:03.0000] <dbaron>
(the two glyphs have different bottoms)

[12:53:00.0000] <Hixie>
k

[12:53:01.0000] <Hixie>
underlining shouldn't be a concern for this particular use

[12:53:02.0000] <dbaron>
in our case, that actually led to different text offsets somehow

[12:54:00.0000] <Hixie>
odd

[13:42:00.0000] <ojan>
Hixie: I've already done this.

[13:43:00.0000] <ojan>
I have a patch I'm working on for webkit that matches IE widths

[13:43:01.0000] <ojan>
width = size*avgCharWidth + (maxCharWidth - avgCharWidth)

[13:43:02.0000] <ojan>
where avgCharWidth and maxCharWidth are taken out of the font

[13:52:00.0000] <jwalden>
ojan: what happens if max < avg?  or are max/avg not in font metadata?

[13:57:00.0000] <ojan>
jwalden: how can max be less than avg?

[13:58:00.0000] <jwalden>
ojan: bad font

[13:58:01.0000] <ojan>
hm...i don't know. didn't test that.

[13:59:00.0000] <jwalden>
I was guessing as much, but you never know :-)

[13:59:01.0000] <ojan>
the real annoying thing is that mac/linux font APIs don't actually expose these values, so you have to dig into the font tables to grab them

[14:03:00.0000] <gsnedders>
ojan: Why on earth would you want that metadata though, except if you were copying something crazy?

[14:04:00.0000] <ojan>
gsnedders: sure. unfortunately, it's something crazy the web now depends upon

[14:04:01.0000] <gsnedders>
The web depends on lots of crazy stuff :)

[14:08:00.0000] <zcorpan>
/me just figured out that it was relatively easy to fix up the dom in firefox 2 with script

[14:10:00.0000] <zcorpan>
you just find all html5 elements and keep appending their nextSibling to self until you hit a node you expect shouldn't be a child of the html5 element (like a comment saying "end article" or a nav element or whatever)

[14:15:00.0000] <Hixie>
ojan: nice! thanks!

[14:20:00.0000] <jwalden>
speaking of html5 elements, is the plan with legend to just ignore the fact that most, maybe all, existing browsers completely mess up the figure > legend case?  gecko/webkit omit the legend element (but not its contents) as often as not or magically introduce a containing fieldset, opera creates an empty legend element and spews the "contents" as siblings to it, dunno about IE

[14:21:00.0000] <othermaciej>
jwalden: I've proposed before that <legend> in <figure> should be renamed for that reason

[14:21:01.0000] <jwalden>
/me ran into this going wild with html5 markup on his personal site

[14:22:00.0000] <othermaciej>
<caption> would actually be a better name but makes figures break inside tables

[14:22:01.0000] <othermaciej>
but if we are going to consider existing browser behavior then <legend> is not good either

[14:23:00.0000] <jwalden>
<description> maybe?

[14:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
jwalden: it's not that bad, and it'll get better over time (unlike <caption>, say). The alternative is minting a new element to mean header, and we're already up to 10 or 20 depending on how loosely you define "header" -- we're just running out of good names here.

[14:23:02.0000] <Hixie>
<legend> will be fine in due course. it's not like we have to have it work today (unlike, say, the offline stuff)

[14:24:00.0000] <othermaciej>
<legend> breaks in <details> too

[14:24:01.0000] <othermaciej>
one new title-like name would do for both of those

[14:24:02.0000] <othermaciej>
and if it had sane parsing rules could be used for anything in the future

[14:24:03.0000] <jwalden>
existing html5 doesn't say <legend> is heading content

[14:24:04.0000] <othermaciej>
I think failing the Degrades Gracefully design principle is a worse problem than element proliferation

[14:25:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I believe I also suggested the existing <label>

[14:25:01.0000] <Hixie>
<label> has all kinds of preexisting baggage

[14:26:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I think the only worry about <label> was that existing pages might have CSS rules that assume <label> is always a form control label

[14:26:01.0000] <othermaciej>
so adding a <figure> would do weird things

[14:27:00.0000] <othermaciej>
however, if that is a problem with considering, then the problem with <legend> is worth considering as well

[14:27:01.0000] <Hixie>
the problems with legend are worth considering, yes. i just don't think they're as important as the problems the other elements have nor especially problematic enough on the long run to warrant a new element.

[14:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
if people really think it's a problem, we can comment out <figure> and <details> for now and wait for the parsers to have gotten fixed and deployed

[14:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
but it might take longer for the fixes to happen than if they stay in

[14:29:00.0000] <othermaciej>
or you could just use a new element name and <figure> could be used without waiting for browser changes to be widely deployed

[14:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
i have not heard any names suggested that are anywhere near as good as <legend> or <caption>.

[14:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
(and i've spent hours on that alone)

[14:31:00.0000] <othermaciej>
<rubric>, <tag>, <name> are all quasi-synonyms for label/legend/caption

[14:32:00.0000] <othermaciej>
(to ideally match english, a details control would have a label, and a figure would have a caption, sadly those two elements are the ones with issues)

[14:32:01.0000] <othermaciej>
(though I am not sure details getting form label CSS styling on its <label> would be particularly wrong)

[14:33:00.0000] <Hixie>
and they all suck :-)

[14:34:00.0000] <othermaciej>
(<legend> is actually a fruity choice of name for <fieldset> too, you wouldn't normally use <legend> in that context)

[14:34:01.0000] <othermaciej>
er

[14:34:02.0000] <Hixie>
the problem with <label> is not css, it's the forms api stuff

[14:34:03.0000] <othermaciej>
rather, you wouldn't use the word "legend" to describe a fieldset label, in, say, an HI guide

[14:34:04.0000] <Hixie>
it would e.g. prevent you from putting two form controls in a <details> legend

[14:34:05.0000] <Hixie>
and would bring along all kinds of DOM API baggage that isn't appropriate here

[14:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
other than the parsing issues, which IMHO aren't a big deal (after all, it works as well in IE as does <section>), <legend> is pretty much exactly what we need

[14:36:01.0000] <Hixie>
and it fits consistently with <fieldset>

[14:37:00.0000] <othermaciej>
<legend> is barely more semantically appropriate than <div>

[14:37:01.0000] <Hixie>
?

[14:37:02.0000] <Hixie>
maybe this is a british english vs american english thing

[14:37:03.0000] <othermaciej>
as I said before, you wouldn't use the word "legend" in English normally to refer to either of the new things

[14:38:00.0000] <othermaciej>
(or to the label of a fieldset either)

[14:38:01.0000] <Hixie>
yes you would

[14:38:02.0000] <Hixie>
a figure has a legend

[14:38:03.0000] <Hixie>
a map has a legend

[14:38:04.0000] <Hixie>
a chart has a legend

[14:38:05.0000] <othermaciej>
a map has a legend, a figure has a caption

[14:38:06.0000] <sayrer>
legends describe symbols

[14:38:07.0000] <Hixie>
sure, caption would be mildly better

[14:39:00.0000] <othermaciej>
a legend is ordinarily a box on the side explaining symbols or colors

[14:39:01.0000] <othermaciej>
form controls and UI elements don't have legends, they have headings or labels

[14:39:02.0000] <gsnedders>
/me agrees with Hixie and sayrer 

[14:39:03.0000] <Hixie>
/me shrugs

[14:39:04.0000] <sayrer>
that's curious, because I agree with othermaciej

[14:39:05.0000] <othermaciej>
/me though Hixie and sayrer were saying opposite things

[14:40:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me just likes confusing everyone

[14:40:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me also jumped into this rather late on

[14:41:00.0000] <othermaciej>
for that matter, a chart can have both a legend and a caption and they are two different things

[14:42:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me really just agrees with a crazy mix of what everyone is saying

[14:43:00.0000] <othermaciej>
anyway

[14:43:01.0000] <othermaciej>
we are rehashing old ground

[14:43:02.0000] <othermaciej>
and jwalden's comment triggered my canned rant

[14:44:00.0000] <othermaciej>
if I continue to care enough I guess I can file it in bugzilla or the tracker

[14:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok ojan said size*avgCharWidth + (maxCharWidth - avgCharWidth)

[14:52:01.0000] <Hixie>
my font has two glyphs, 200 and 1000 wide respectively

[14:53:00.0000] <Hixie>
so the average is 600

[14:53:01.0000] <Hixie>
20 * 600 + (1000 - 600) = 12400 font units wide

[14:53:02.0000] <Hixie>
and the height of the font is 1000

[14:53:03.0000] <ojan>
Hixie: to be clear it's whatever the font file claims to be the avg/max

[14:53:04.0000] <Hixie>
so 1em = 1000

[14:54:00.0000] <Hixie>
so i'd expect it 12.4em wide

[14:54:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me checks

[14:55:00.0000] <Hixie>
well that didn't work. let's see what my font is really saying.

[14:55:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me gets the microsoft typography tool out

[14:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
uh, i wasn't using my font

[14:59:01.0000] <Hixie>
oops

[14:59:02.0000] <Hixie>
/me tries again

[15:05:00.0000] <Hixie>
ojan: well my font has 600 avg width and 1000 max width and it still doesn't give me the results i expect

[15:06:00.0000] <ojan>
what's it give?

[15:06:01.0000] <Hixie>
something's fishy here

[15:06:02.0000] <Hixie>
let me get back to you

[15:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
ooh, interesting, some padding is added to the width even if the padding style is set to 0

[15:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
hmm

[15:18:01.0000] <Hixie>
the weird border and padding behavior complicates this

[15:18:02.0000] <gsnedders>
/me places a light bulb over Hixie's head and hopes all is solved

[15:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
ojan: i was barking up the wrong tree in quirks mode and IE was screwing up the rendering now obeying CSS rules. trying in standards mode now!

[15:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
ojan: yeah, you are correct, at least in standards mode. how did you reverse engineer that? brute force?

[15:31:00.0000] <ojan>
Hixie: trial and error

[15:31:01.0000] <Hixie>
nice work

[15:31:02.0000] <Hixie>
is it the same in quirks mode except that the width includes the padding and border?

[15:31:03.0000] <ojan>
and some help from dean pointing me in the right direction

[15:32:00.0000] <ojan>
Hixie: not sure off the top of my head, but that sounds right

[15:34:00.0000] <Hixie>
outer width is 2px bigger in quirks mode, it seems

[15:34:01.0000] <Hixie>
which seems backwards


2009-02-07
[16:07:00.0000] <jcranmer>
wow, that quit message tripped me up

[16:07:01.0000] <jcranmer>
one of my friend's names is burton

[16:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
does he work at lockheed martin?

[16:17:00.0000] <jcranmer>
still at university

[16:17:01.0000] <Hixie>
bummer

[16:17:02.0000] <Hixie>
wouldn't it have been awesome if i had been right though

[16:18:00.0000] <alyoshka>
is it <details open="true"> or <details open="open">?

[16:19:00.0000] <alyoshka>
and does <details open="false"> or <details open="closed"> work?

[16:20:00.0000] <alyoshka>
attribute minimization isn't allowed in XHTML, and HTML5 is aiming for an XHTML implementation, so this is important

[16:20:01.0000] <Hixie>
it's <details open=""> and <details>

[16:21:00.0000] <Hixie>
(<details open="open"> is also allowed. the actual value has no effect, only the presence or absence of the attribute matters.)

[16:22:00.0000] <alyoshka>
thanks. and would the javascript interface include setAttribute("open", "anythinggoeshere")?

[16:22:01.0000] <Hixie>
anything will work, but only "" and "open" are allowed for the second argument (they both open the element)

[16:22:02.0000] <Hixie>
see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-details-element

[16:22:03.0000] <Hixie>
in particular, notice it says that "The open content attribute is a boolean attribute."

[16:23:00.0000] <Hixie>
and then see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#boolean-attribute

[16:23:01.0000] <alyoshka>
ah, I see, that "boolean attribute" part confused me at first

[16:23:02.0000] <Hixie>
once browsers implement <details>, there'll also be a .open DOM attribute

[16:23:03.0000] <Hixie>
the section, or the term?

[16:23:04.0000] <alyoshka>
the term

[16:23:05.0000] <Hixie>
ah

[16:23:06.0000] <alyoshka>
I missed the explaination

[16:23:07.0000] <Hixie>
always follow hyperlinks to read the definitions :-)

[16:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
the terms in html5 are not always what they appear (usually due to a lack of more appropriate terms)

[16:24:01.0000] <alyoshka>
that page always make Opera run so slow while loading so sometimes I'm too lazy to open it

[16:25:00.0000] <alyoshka>
lol, I know , it's bad

[16:25:01.0000] <alyoshka>
is there a sectioned version of the spec?

[16:26:00.0000] <xydyx>
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/

[16:26:01.0000] <Hixie>
http://whatwg.org/html5

[16:26:02.0000] <Hixie>
^ multipage version

[16:26:03.0000] <Hixie>
it says so right at the top of the document :-)

[16:27:00.0000] <alyoshka>
thanks

[16:30:00.0000] <alyoshka>
coolness, I made a simple style rule that takes care of open/closed

[16:31:00.0000] <alyoshka>
it excludes IE6 and 7 tho AFAIK

[16:31:01.0000] <alyoshka>
uses the :before pseudo-element

[16:35:00.0000] <alyoshka>
say, should the contents of <details> (except for the triangle) be a bit indented?

[16:36:00.0000] <alyoshka>
> Details

[16:36:01.0000] <alyoshka>
\/ Details

[16:36:02.0000] <alyoshka>
   The details

[16:37:00.0000] <alyoshka>
\/ Details

[16:37:01.0000] <alyoshka>
--The details

[16:37:02.0000] <alyoshka>
something like that?

[16:37:03.0000] <alyoshka>
where the content lines up with the legend text, past the triangle

[16:38:00.0000] <alyoshka>
well, it's probably going to be the choice of the UA developers, but I mean, like a recommended style

[16:44:00.0000] <alyoshka>
yikes, Firefox thinks the whole page down from the <legend> is wrapped in a <fieldset> since there's a <legend> there

[16:46:00.0000] <Hixie>
alyoshka: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html#the-details-element-0

[10:49:00.0000] <annevk5>
it sort of seems rendering should be normative for Web browsers at least given that we're effectively required to implement that anyway

[10:52:00.0000] <Philip`>
There will be some class of web browsers that need to do things differently (e.g. because they're on constrained devices)

[10:53:00.0000] <Philip`>
and it seems unreasonable to try to precisely define what class of UAs the requirements are required for

[10:53:01.0000] <Philip`>
so it'd end up being effectively optional, because any browser developer could claim they're not in the class that the normative rendering requirements apply to

[10:53:02.0000] <Philip`>
and so they might as well be non-normative


2009-02-08
[05:32:00.0000] <yecril71>
There is no such thing as the native appearance of a hyperlink in Microsoft Windows.

[05:33:00.0000] <yecril71>
Microsoft Windows has buttons and menu items, but no hyperlinks.

[06:35:00.0000] <yecril71>
That only means that if you set the background, you should set the foreground as well.

[07:33:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: i tried applying these styles to v.nu: fieldset { border:1px solid #ccc; background:#eee } legend { display:none }

[08:59:00.0000] <annevk5>
seems weird that microformats requires class="url" on a <a>

[09:01:00.0000] <Philip`>
Does that indicate that the href is a URL, or that the text content of the element is a URL?

[09:02:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: @href

[09:02:01.0000] <Lachy>
annevk5, yes, I agree. I've pointed out the same issue to microforamts people once before, and they have some lame excuse for it

[09:06:00.0000] <annevk5>
I suppose it's in case of multiple <a> elements but even then they could offer some heuristics before resorting to a class

[09:13:00.0000] <Lachy>
they could do it on the URL scheme. I think they do it to differentiate between a website and an email address

[09:13:01.0000] <Lachy>
but I suppose they think class="url" and class="email" is easier

[09:17:00.0000] <takkaria>
heuristics are bad, mmkay?

[09:17:01.0000] <takkaria>
or at least, lots of people seem to think that

[09:18:00.0000] <annevk5>
if you define them it's just a different syntax from class="url"

[09:18:01.0000] <annevk5>
that requires less typing

[09:18:02.0000] <annevk5>
though maybe more implementation work

[09:26:00.0000] <gsnedders>
takkaria: But the tools will save us!

[11:49:00.0000] <jcranmer>
does FF not support pathing correctly, or am I just doing it wrong?

[11:50:00.0000] <jcranmer>
context.beginPath(); context.moveTo(argsWidth, 10); context.lineTo(argsWidth, height - 10); context.closePath();

[11:50:01.0000] <Philip`>
jcranmer: What do you expect it to do, and what does it do instead?

[11:50:02.0000] <jcranmer>
what I expect it to do is to produce a 1-pixel line from (argsWidth, 10) to (argsWidth, height - 10)

[11:51:00.0000] <jcranmer>
what it does is nothing

[11:51:01.0000] <Philip`>
You need to use something like context.stroke() to actually draw anything

[11:51:02.0000] <Philip`>
(and you don't need closePath() because a line is an unclosed path)

[11:51:03.0000] <jcranmer>
Philip`: ah, thanks

[11:52:00.0000] <jcranmer>
well, it's antialiasing, but I can live with that

[11:53:00.0000] <jcranmer>
/me is writing an HTML page that can show discrete probability distributions

[12:01:00.0000] <Philip`>
jcranmer: Offset it by 0.5 pixels to get rid of the antialiasing

[12:01:01.0000] <jcranmer>
Philip`: I like the antialiasing, in fact

[12:02:00.0000] <jcranmer>
makes the axes seem bigger

[12:02:01.0000] <Philip`>
jcranmer: (Integer pixel coordinates are the edges between pixels, so you want to shift into the middle of the pixel)

[12:02:02.0000] <Philip`>
jcranmer: If you want the axes to seem bigger, context.lineWidth = 2 is probably a better way to do it :-)

[12:28:00.0000] <jcranmer>
bah, how am I supposed to draw a dashed line?

[12:28:01.0000] <Philip`>
jcranmer: By drawing lots of short solid lines

[12:29:00.0000] <jcranmer>
:-(

[12:29:01.0000] <Philip`>
jcranmer: like http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/dash.html

[13:14:00.0000] <gsnedders>
What does "->" do in C?

[13:15:00.0000] <Dashiva>
It's like (*x). or so

[13:17:00.0000] <gsnedders>
(p->z && Z_TYPE(p->z) == IS_OBJECT) doesn't work because "used struct type value where scalar is required"

[13:18:00.0000] <gsnedders>
I just want to see if it exists

[13:18:01.0000] <Dashiva>
p->z is a struct and can't be used in a boolean context?

[13:18:02.0000] <gsnedders>
How can I see if it exists, though?

[13:19:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Add != null? :)

[13:19:01.0000] <Dashiva>
I dunno

[13:19:02.0000] <gsnedders>
/me doesn't really want to debug this, and thinks that it is simply p->z not existing here

[13:22:00.0000] <Philip`>
What are the types of p and p->z?

[13:22:01.0000] <Philip`>
("I don't know" is probably not an acceptable answer :-) )

[13:22:02.0000] <gsnedders>
I don't know

[13:22:03.0000] <gsnedders>
And I'm not code reading to find out :P

[13:22:04.0000] <Dashiva>
Don't you have that hover-and-type-appears-IDE-thing?

[13:23:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Dashiva: Well, I'm currently using nano to edit it, so no :)


2009-02-09
[22:43:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Re: <legend>: I think we should just mint a new tag name--even if ugly. For example, <figcaption>.

[23:16:00.0000] <jruderman>
<fignetwon>

[02:53:00.0000] <yecril71>
If you put an immediate script after a deferred CSS, 

[02:53:01.0000] <yecril71>
the script need not see the CSS.

[02:53:02.0000] <yecril71>
(and CSS can be deferred without warning).

[02:54:00.0000] <yecril71>
In order to provide for such a dependency, 

[02:54:01.0000] <yecril71>
you can put the CSS-dependent code in the style element�s load handler.

[02:58:00.0000] <yecril71>
Why is createScript more appropriate than createElement("script")?

[03:04:00.0000] <Lachy>
yecril71, what are you talking about?

[03:05:00.0000] <annevk5>
 he doesn't post the mailing list but instead comments here

[03:06:00.0000] <Lachy>
it would be nice if he gave some context, like mentioning the thread or something

[03:06:01.0000] <jgraham>
Maybe he just didn't like the tumbleweed

[03:08:00.0000] <yecril71>
We do not have tumbleweed in Poland.

[03:09:00.0000] <yecril71>
The thread is Re: [whatwg] defer on style, depends

[03:21:00.0000] <yecril71>
Unstyled content is ugly/unreadable in the following cases:

[03:21:01.0000] <yecril71>
* when the text contains formulas that cannot be displayed otherwise,

[03:22:00.0000] <yecril71>
* when the content uses custom fonts (e.g. when the language it is in is not supported by contemporary operating systems),

[03:23:00.0000] <yecril71>
* when it uses CSS for semantic images (bad, but necessary because MSIE is broken)

[03:23:01.0000] <zcorpan>
/me looks at http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webforum.nu%2F and wonders whether the output would be more useful if the "downplayed errors" were implemented

[03:24:00.0000] <virtuelv>
hm

[03:24:01.0000] <virtuelv>
"Use alt text infotips to describe graphics."

[03:24:02.0000] <yecril71>
* when the author is HTML-incompetent (bad).

[03:24:03.0000] <virtuelv>
from MS HiG: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb545462.aspx?ppud=4

[03:26:00.0000] <yecril71>
The HTML5 specification is an example of a document that is actually better viewed without CSS.

[03:26:01.0000] <yecril71>
(At least, in MSIE).

[03:29:00.0000] <zcorpan>
gsnedders: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fsimon.html5.org%2Fspecs%2Fxml-stylesheet5 could you fix this? :P

[03:32:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Lachy: in the html5 reference it might be useful to list event handler attributes that are likely to be useful specifically for a certain element (e.g. those related to media elements)

[03:37:00.0000] <zcorpan>
ie8 finally has a menu item to disable stylesheets

[03:39:00.0000] <Lachy>
zcorpan, which attributes specifically?

[03:40:00.0000] <Lachy>
zcorpan, please file a bug or send mail http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=HTML%20WG&component=Developer%27s%20Guide

[03:46:00.0000] <yecril71>
MSIE7 developer toolbar allows disabling CSS as well

[03:49:00.0000] <Lachy>
Do these events have associated on[event]="" content attributes? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#mediaevents

[03:49:01.0000] <annevk5>
yes

[03:49:02.0000] <Lachy>
I can't find them in the spec

[03:50:00.0000] <annevk5>
soon in a HTML 5 spec near you and such

[03:50:01.0000] <Lachy>
zcorpan, were they the attributes you're talking about?

[03:51:00.0000] <Lachy>
if so, then they will get included in the html5 reference once Hixie includes them in the spec.

[04:11:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Lachy: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6475

[04:12:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Lachy: or you could take the other approach i thought of

[04:12:01.0000] <zcorpan>
i.e. listing the events that are fired

[04:16:00.0000] <Lachy>
zcorpan, what's the other approach you thought of?

[04:17:00.0000] <Lachy>
oh, do you mean "listing the events that are fired" is the other approach?

[04:18:00.0000] <zcorpan>
yes

[04:19:00.0000] <annevk5>
makes sense for HTML5 itself as well I think

[04:20:00.0000] <annevk5>
listing events that are dispatched

[04:20:01.0000] <Lachy>
if the spec lists those in the summary boxes, then that would be easier for my script to just extract them all

[04:41:00.0000] <hsivonen>
what's the 0xFDD0 to 0xFDEF range in Unicode for?

[04:42:00.0000] <hsivonen>
other than eye of the basilisk, of course

[04:43:00.0000] <hsivonen>
fun, fun, fun. 0xFDD0 to 0xFDEF is allowed in XML 1.0 but gets special treatment in HTML5 NCR expansion

[05:09:00.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: I guess you already know this but the Unicode standard is pretty vauge about the purpose of that range. It just says they are "non character code points" that happen to be inside a block of arabic characters for historic reasons 

[05:10:00.0000] <jgraham>
It seems like XML is wrong per unicode if it allows these characters:

[05:10:01.0000] <jgraham>
"Applications are free to use any of these noncharacter code points internally but should

[05:10:02.0000] <jgraham>
never attempt to exchange them

[05:10:03.0000] <jgraham>
"

[05:11:00.0000] <zcorpan>
something that xml 1.0 6th ed should fix?

[05:11:01.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: the XML Core WG has knowingly not fixed this

[05:11:02.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: but has instead put an informative note about the state of affairs in XML

[05:12:00.0000] <hsivonen>
In my opinion, general-purpose specs like XML shouldn't try to limit data flow except for U+0000

[05:13:00.0000] <hsivonen>
that is, I don't see broadening the set of ill-formed streams solving Real Problems

[05:19:00.0000] <takkaria>
heh, the issues graph hsays that Hixie will be finished with email as of this Christmas

[05:19:01.0000] <jgraham>
Does anyone know what a * means in the Simple_Uppercase_Mapping field of UnicodeData.txt?

[05:20:00.0000] <jgraham>
Or am I miscountin again...

[05:21:00.0000] <jgraham>
Oh, I think I can't count

[05:37:00.0000] <gsnedders>
zcorpan: libxml serializer bug, I think. Using html5lib and it is fine

[05:38:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me promises to upgrade pms.net "Real Soon Now"

[05:40:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: What does it use? What parser and serializer?

[05:41:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: I has a whole pile of "advanced options" basically all the ones that anolis supports from the command line

[05:41:01.0000] <annevk5>
XML does not do Unicode Normalization either...

[05:43:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk5: the problem statement for the normalization thread should probably be written in terms of ability to type natural-language words instead of defining the problem in terms of the concept of normalization

[05:43:01.0000] <hsivonen>
for example, the fi ligature or the ohm sign are pretty irrelevant to enabling other natural languages on the same level as English

[05:45:00.0000] <annevk5>
I think I'll wait for the result of that wiki project and then see where this is going

[05:46:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I don't want to get into a wiki edit war. I guess I'll add an alternative problem statement to the wiki alongside the current one at some point.

[05:46:01.0000] <annevk5>
and meanwhile object to adding anything regarding it to CSS specifications may someone suggest that (fantasai did raise some issues with proposed solutions I do not agree with)

[06:22:00.0000] <Dashiva>
The listserv needs better AI. It should recognize that it's received the same message to both @lists.whatwg.org and @whatwg.org.

[06:24:00.0000] <Lachy>
people should just stop sending to @lists.whatwg.org, and use @whatwg.org only

[06:24:01.0000] <Dashiva>
That would be nice, but we know how well educating people works ;)

[06:25:00.0000] <Lachy>
of course, the education system works perfectly. So what's the problem? ;-)

[06:27:00.0000] <Lachy>
which mail in particular was received twice? I don't see any

[06:54:00.0000] <beowulf>
whatwg types, do you think it's important for students studying web design to be able to write html to standard?

[06:55:00.0000] <annevk5>
sort of depends on whether they actually wanna write code or just design, no?

[06:55:01.0000] <jgraham>
I don't really understand what "studying web design" means

[06:56:00.0000] <jgraham>
Like, practially what does such a course cover

[06:57:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Lachy: Maybe your client removes duplicates. It was smylers' on style

[07:45:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk5: did you see my alternative normalization problem statement? did it make sense?

[07:46:00.0000] <annevk5>
yes and yes

[07:46:01.0000] <hsivonen>
good

[07:47:00.0000] <annevk5>
I would love to hear actual developer feedback on this issue rather than theoretical arguments

[07:48:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I would love to hear actual Vietnamese etc. Web developer feedback

[07:48:01.0000] <annevk5>
indeed, it's not like the internet is brand new there although it is used less most likely

[07:50:00.0000] <annevk5>
people at work said that they never heard this was a problem for e.g. Chinese and Japanese

[07:50:01.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk5: this problem doesn't apply to Chinese and Japanese to any noticeable extent

[07:51:00.0000] <annevk5>
k, I wonder why Richard lists them then

[07:51:01.0000] <hsivonen>
(even though it is possible to dig up a case where you could construct a case that applies to Chinese; see example given by Rob Burns)

[07:52:00.0000] <hsivonen>
In theory, the issue applies to European languages and Korean all the time, but in practice the input methods normalize, so it's not a problem in practice

[07:53:00.0000] <hsivonen>
aside: the European and Korean markets would reject using NFD for interchange so hard, that it's not even debatable to use anything but NFC if one wants one normalization form to rule them all

[07:54:00.0000] <annevk5>
what does for Chinese and Japanese, does that go for Arabic as well?

[07:55:00.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: I thought it applied to Japanese because of emphasis dots or something. Although I don't know why one would put an emphasis dot in an identifier

[07:55:01.0000] <jgraham>
Oh, wait there's no NFC

[07:55:02.0000] <jgraham>
for that

[07:55:03.0000] <jgraham>
ignore me

[07:55:04.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk5: I haven't studied the applicability of the issue to Arabic vowels

[07:56:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk5: but Arabic--in theory--has presentation forms, but then presentation forms equivalence is unaddressed for English, too

[07:58:00.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: Do you know why unicode has seperate codepoints corresponding to presentation forms? That was news to me until recently and it seems rather insane

[07:59:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: presentation forms that have distinct code points in legacy encodings (such as MacRoman for fi and fl ligatures) have distinct code points in Unicode

[07:59:01.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: OK, I guessed it would be something like that. Is it now considered a mistake?

[07:59:02.0000] <jgraham>
(not that that helps of course)

[07:59:03.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: by whom? :-)

[08:00:00.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: Popular opinion amongst unicode people :)

[08:00:01.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: dunno

[08:03:00.0000] <annevk5>
sounds like a mistake

[08:03:01.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk5: depends on your round trippability requirements

[08:03:02.0000] <annevk5>
fair point

[08:04:00.0000] <hsivonen>
today, of course, there's less need to round trip, since one can pretty much always output UTF-8

[08:04:01.0000] <jgraham>
/me wonders if "the characters are converted one by one" in the ECMAScript spec is intended to mean "the characters are converted without reference to conditional mappings in SpecialCasings.txt"

[08:06:00.0000] <jgraham>
Which seems like a weird optimization because it only applies to one character in toLowerCase, none in toUpperCase, but breaks about half the time in toLocaleLowerCase in the cases where that function makes a difference

[08:07:00.0000] <jgraham>
s/SpecialCasings/SpecialCasing/

[08:07:01.0000] <jgraham>
and I guess s/breaks/produces incorrect results/

[08:35:00.0000] <jgraham>
Hmm, there are more cases where it would make a difference to do things right

[08:43:00.0000] <jgraham>
(but they have to do with normalization)

[10:07:00.0000] <yecril71>
MSIE and Firefox support deferring scripts now.

[10:07:01.0000] <yecril71>
I would not regard these as a "minority of browsers".

[10:07:02.0000] <jcranmer>
IE 5, 6, 7, or 8?

[10:10:00.0000] <yecril71>
I think all of them, although I am sure of 6+

[10:10:01.0000] <yecril71>
deferring is MS�s invention.

[10:11:00.0000] <Lachy>
yecril71, defer was in HTML4

[10:12:00.0000] <yecril71>
(indeed, better support for defer was the reason I joined WHATWG)

[10:12:01.0000] <Lachy>
that seems like quite a small reason

[10:13:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me admits

[10:14:00.0000] <yecril71>
Hixie�s invited me from Bugzilla

[12:05:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Goddamn you Python and your broken indecision about Unicode!

[12:12:00.0000] <jwalden>
holy splitmeisters Batman!

[13:04:00.0000] <yecril71>
Python is only a tool, and its only merit is that it is fashionable.

[13:13:00.0000] <yecril71>
I think two-way bandwidth negotiation for streaming media would be a good thing.

[13:14:00.0000] <yecril71>
But I do not think this has anything to do with HTML.

[13:45:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me notes that the BBC iPlayer has a very simple but seemingly perfectly adequate bandwidth negotiation technology: there's a button that says "Play high quality" (with a tooltip saying it requires "a fast internet connection, at least 1Mbps")

[13:48:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me wonders whether the F1 will be on iPlayer…

[15:32:00.0000] <jwalden>
/me wonders if <input type=checkbox indeterminate> has been proposed yet

[15:32:01.0000] <jruderman>
annevk5: i heard that opera has some kind of protection against internet sites CSRFing intranet sites. are you guys willing to share a description of your algorithm and your experience with it?

[15:34:00.0000] <Philip`>
jwalden: It has been proposed, and then added to the spec

[15:34:01.0000] <jwalden>
hm

[15:34:02.0000] <Philip`>
jwalden: (See http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/forms.html#checkbox-state )

[15:34:03.0000] <Philip`>
jwalden: Oh, except that's only a DOM attribute, not a content attribute, seemingly

[15:35:00.0000] <Philip`>
jwalden: but it's close enough :-)

[15:37:00.0000] <jwalden>
Philip`: I was specifically referring to the content attribute; it's come up in discussion of handling indeterminate in gecko, where a reviewer asked for a test to use static markup rather than dynamically changing it

[15:37:01.0000] <jwalden>
/me shoots the attribute dual-definition

[15:37:02.0000] <Philip`>
jwalden: Ah, right

[15:38:00.0000] <jwalden>
and as far as I could tell from those various discussions, it was just "there isn't one" rather than "this is why there isn't one"

[15:39:00.0000] <Philip`>
IE doesn't support it as a content attribute

[15:42:00.0000] <Hixie>
the spec just does what IE does

[15:42:01.0000] <jwalden>
sure, but when has that stopped anyone?

[15:42:02.0000] <Hixie>
(which by the way is pretty ridiculous)

[15:42:03.0000] <Hixie>
(e.g. it's actually a two-state checkbox even with indeterminate)

[15:42:04.0000] <Hixie>
(not a real three-state checkbox)

[15:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
(the indeterminate flag just hides the state in the UI)

[15:44:00.0000] <jwalden>
I wonder how much form-submission code would get broken by serializing as name=indeterminate

[15:44:01.0000] <jwalden>
if any

[15:45:00.0000] <Hixie>
my intent is to not add new features if i can help it

[15:45:01.0000] <Hixie>
we have too much new stuff waiting for implementation already

[15:45:02.0000] <jwalden>
this is hardly that featureful, just bringing markup up to par with DOM properties

[15:46:00.0000] <Hixie>
there are literally hundreds of things on this scale that people are asking for

[15:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
hasn't been much whining recently

[15:52:01.0000] <Hixie>
what's that about


2009-02-10
[16:11:00.0000] <Lachy>
I think the problem with figuring out how to improve the support for indeterminate checkboxes is that there aren't clear use cases to help determine whether or not submitting the indeterminate state to the server is necessary, or whether the state is merely something needed for UI

[16:11:01.0000] <Lachy>
I think the IE design is meant for UI-only use cases, not submission cases

[16:35:00.0000] <Hixie>
indeed

[17:17:00.0000] <gsnedders>
what does the s[i:j:k] syntax do in Python?

[17:18:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Ah, it changes the step

[18:41:00.0000] <weinig>
annevk5: ping

[19:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
woo, dreamhost use <canvas> in production!

[19:54:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Man, ElementTree's handling of namespaces sucks

[19:55:00.0000] <roc>
<canvas> is spreading. IE might have to implement it

[19:57:00.0000] <Hixie>
roc: i loved their announcement, too. something along the lines of "pretty graphs, except in IE".

[19:58:00.0000] <roc>
apparently IE8 standards-mode busts VML, so some of the <canvas> workarounds no longer work

[20:12:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Man

[20:12:01.0000] <gsnedders>
(Man, I'm saying man too much)

[20:12:02.0000] <gsnedders>
The RFC index doesn't actually give any reference about _where_ to get the RFC.

[21:39:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dom-document-getelementsbyclassname — what's a class?

[21:55:00.0000] <Hixie>
gsnedders: how do you mean?

[21:56:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: "that have all the classes specified in that argument, having obtained the classes by splitting a string on spaces."

[21:56:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: But splitting what?

[21:56:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: I assume all @class on HTML elements

[21:56:03.0000] <Hixie>
the argument

[21:57:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: "that have all the classes"

[21:57:01.0000] <Hixie>
yes?

[21:57:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: How does an element have a class?

[21:57:03.0000] <Hixie>
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#classes

[21:58:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me realizes he missed the paragraph two paragraphs below

[21:58:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me is dumb, again

[21:59:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Ignore feedback from me at 5am in the morning in the future :)

[21:59:01.0000] <Hixie>
k :-)

[22:01:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me will live to regret that statement, probably

[22:02:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Yay! I have a refer file which has all RFCs in it.

[22:03:00.0000] <gsnedders>
There are some rather obvious bugs, though

[00:43:00.0000] <annevk5>
jruderman, you just left but in case you read the logs I suppose I can figure out if we want to share that today

[00:44:00.0000] <annevk5>
weinig, I am here now, haven't checked my e-mail yet though in case you e-mailed your question

[00:57:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me replies to an mpt e-mail and a jgraham e-mail from nov 2004

[00:57:01.0000] <hsivonen>
/me finishes editing the normalization wiki page

[00:57:02.0000] <mpt>
/me is glad he's still alive to read the reply :-)

[00:57:03.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, there is no base URL concept in HTML5 that I can use here?

[00:58:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk5: as far as i can tell, the behavior you are describing is not one that anything in html5 has

[00:58:01.0000] <annevk5>
I wonder how to make it work in such a way that it will also work in Web Workers

[00:59:00.0000] <annevk5>
I suppose I have to provide a hook for Web Workers

[01:01:00.0000] <ap>
hsivonen: what's the URL for the normalization wiki page? I don't see it mentioned in the logs

[01:01:01.0000] <hsivonen>
ap: http://esw.w3.org/topic/I18N/CanonicalNormalization

[01:01:02.0000] <ap>
thx

[01:02:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk5: yeah just add a hook that says "if the XMLHttpRequest object's constructor is not on a Window object, then the /XMLHttpRequest base URI/ is defined by another specification." or some such

[01:03:00.0000] <annevk5>
the problem is that currently it is wrong

[01:03:01.0000] <annevk5>
because currently it only has a base URL once constructed

[01:03:02.0000] <annevk5>
it needs to change so that the interface object has an associated base URL

[01:06:00.0000] <annevk5>
e.g. in case the interface object gets copied across Windows before any object creation takes place

[01:06:01.0000] <jgraham>
Interesting, it turns out that what I said in 2004 isn't entirely stupid

[01:07:00.0000] <annevk5>
"H:TML" is confusing

[01:08:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk5: the full title is long and I want to avoid expressions like "Mike's document" and "Hixie's document"

[01:09:00.0000] <Hixie>
i don't really think "The Markup Language" is the least ambiguous of names, but I'm not really sure what a better name would be

[01:10:00.0000] <annevk5>
it looks like a qname

[01:10:01.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk5: your imagination has been dirtied by XML!

[01:25:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk5: should cssom be in charge of firing onresize and onscroll events?

[01:27:00.0000] <annevk5>
CSSOM View maybe, yeah

[01:27:01.0000] <annevk5>
though maybe not for this revision of that document

[01:27:02.0000] <Hixie>
is there an ETA on the revision that would include this?

[01:27:03.0000] <Hixie>
(for planning purposes)

[01:29:00.0000] <annevk5>
2015?

[01:30:00.0000] <annevk5>
I don't really know, I want to work out XHR and CORS

[01:30:01.0000] <annevk5>
I suppose alternatively it could be included and it would just sit longer in WD status

[01:30:02.0000] <annevk5>
I don't really mind WD status, but some people do

[01:31:00.0000] <Hixie>
i can work with 2015, sure

[01:32:00.0000] <Hixie>
(you don't have a timetable for when things like xhr will be done?)

[01:32:01.0000] <annevk5>
I did, but then HTML5 raised the bar

[01:33:00.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[01:33:01.0000] <Hixie>
well html5's timetable has been pretty well established for several years now, you should have expected changes :-)

[01:33:02.0000] <annevk5>
also, implementors are not really helping that much (apart from when ap was still reviewing) so it's hard to figure out how much is still to be done

[01:34:00.0000] <Hixie>
ah

[01:34:01.0000] <Hixie>
you'll get better at estimating it with more experience i expect

[01:34:02.0000] <Hixie>
took me years to get an idea of how long it would take

[01:34:03.0000] <annevk5>
but now it is mainly figuring out how to deal with the base URL issue and event loops for XHR 1

[01:34:04.0000] <annevk5>
for XHR 2 it depends on when the File Upload stuff gets done

[01:35:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah i have a bunch of stuff waiting on file upload

[01:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
i think it's ridiculous that after years of people complaining about how html5 wasn't going to be ready for them in time, html5 is now blocking on other specs

[01:36:01.0000] <annevk5>
CORS is done, apart from non-normative details and server requirements and potential feedback from implementors

[01:36:02.0000] <Hixie>
cool

[01:37:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk5: so CORS will use Origin regardless of how the more general ID goes?

[01:37:01.0000] <annevk5>
hsivonen, there are three known implementations of CORS that use Origin and will ship soonish

[01:37:02.0000] <annevk5>
hsivonen, of which one at least has indicated it cannot be possibly changed

[01:37:03.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk5: ok.

[01:37:04.0000] <annevk5>
hsivonen, not counting Chrome here

[01:38:00.0000] <annevk5>
hsivonen, so I guess that although I appreciate the discussion on the HTTP WG mailing list, it's pretty much a done deal

[01:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
someone should tell the http group

[01:40:01.0000] <Hixie>
(not it!)

[01:40:02.0000] <annevk5>
"not it!"?

[01:41:00.0000] <annevk5>
I'm not sure they care much for reality, but I suppose I can give it try if the discussion surfaces again

[01:42:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: as in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT8uiT_rZ5k ?

[01:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
"not it" is an idiomatic english expression meaning "i decline to volunteer for the responsibility that has most recently been put on the table"

[01:43:01.0000] <annevk5>
heh

[01:43:02.0000] <annevk5>
I love Borat

[01:48:00.0000] <annevk5>
time to go to work o_O

[02:23:00.0000] <annevk5>
so when describing use cases for CORS, would it be wrong to mention XMLHttpRequest, <eventsource>, @font-face, <?xml-stylesheet?>, XBL, etc. explicitly?

[02:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
no?

[02:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
why would it?

[02:25:00.0000] <annevk5>
ta, not sure

[02:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: yt?

[02:50:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: have you tested http://simon.html5.org/specs/html-color-attributes against IE by giving it random strings and checking the computed values?

[03:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
how can we work out the computer value of css properties in IE8?

[04:00:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh currentStyle

[04:00:01.0000] <Hixie>
not runtimeStyle

[04:03:00.0000] <annevk5>
the DreamHost thingie was "Pretty graphs unless $browser eq 'IE'."

[04:03:01.0000] <Hixie>
hm, zcorpan's algorithm doesn't seem to be right

[04:04:00.0000] <Hixie>
fails in about 13% of cases

[04:04:01.0000] <Hixie>
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/color-attributes/001.html

[04:04:02.0000] <annevk5>
http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/color-attributes/ has tests

[04:04:03.0000] <Hixie>
(12% rather)

[04:07:00.0000] <annevk5>
http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/color-attributes/the-algorithm/ does seem to use random strings

[04:11:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: it doesn't match ie when the input is in the format "#rgb"

[04:11:01.0000] <Hixie>
hm

[04:11:02.0000] <Hixie>
/me pokes around

[04:11:03.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: we changed it to support pages that were written against ie pocket/firefox/safari

[04:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
no i get fails for other things too

[04:16:01.0000] <Hixie>
e.g. #3

[04:19:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me gets more debug output

[04:20:00.0000] <zcorpan>
-> #030000 ?

[04:20:01.0000] <Hixie>
hm actually the problem is the way i'm reading the colors

[04:21:00.0000] <zcorpan>
oh yeah, currentStyle is weird in ie

[04:21:01.0000] <Hixie>
it's saying #3 => #300 instead of #030000

[04:21:02.0000] <Hixie>
i wonder how to get around that

[04:22:00.0000] <zcorpan>
use <body bgcolor> and document.bgColor

[04:22:01.0000] <Hixie>
they serialise differently?

[04:22:02.0000] <zcorpan>
yes

[04:22:03.0000] <Hixie>
ok that's just fucked up

[04:23:00.0000] <annevk5>
though please spec document.bgColor as just reflecting the string value

[04:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
send feedback

[04:23:02.0000] <zcorpan>
annevk5: document.bgColor should take css into account

[04:23:03.0000] <Hixie>
(if it isn't already done)

[04:23:04.0000] <annevk5>
zcorpan, for compat with sites?

[04:23:05.0000] <zcorpan>
annevk5: think so but not sure

[04:24:00.0000] <annevk5>
I believe Opera doesn't do it

[04:25:00.0000] <zcorpan>
oh right we don't

[04:25:01.0000] <zcorpan>
nor do webkit and firefox

[04:25:02.0000] <zcorpan>
so i guess it's ok

[04:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
wtf

[04:29:01.0000] <Hixie>
i think i should do this tomorrow when i'm awake

[04:29:02.0000] <Hixie>
IE should have a label on the side

[04:29:03.0000] <Hixie>
"do not operate while drowsy"

[04:30:00.0000] <annevk5>
zcorpan, much rather have them as simply reflecting the DOMString than some interaction with the CSSOM

[04:32:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/color-attributes/001.html shows some failures i don't think you are expecting

[04:32:01.0000] <Hixie>
nn

[04:32:02.0000] <zcorpan>
nn

[04:34:00.0000] <zcorpan>
/me also has http://simon.html5.org/test/html/rendering/color-attributes/

[04:40:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I should probably file the hyphenation issue away as an example of a case of claims of internationalization needs gone too far, but we are able to recognize it because German and Swedish are more familiar to us.

[04:41:00.0000] <hsivonen>
which leaves the question of how many claims about the needs of unfamiliar (to us) languages have gone way beyond what's needed into the what might be nice to have department

[04:52:00.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: Correctly distinguishing between "nice to have" and "needed" is a generally difficult problem (and, I guess, people who are good at it, or even just get it right once, can become rather rich and/or famous)

[04:53:00.0000] <jgraham>
e.g. AIUI, HTML has rather a lot less features than earlier hypertext systems but it turns out they were not needed

[04:54:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Aside: I can't find a single non-normalizing text input method among the ones that ship with Leopard

[04:54:01.0000] <hsivonen>
although I'm not quite sure about Tibetan

[04:54:02.0000] <jgraham>
So it's not really a problem specific to i18n

[04:55:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: no, but with i18n it is too easy for people to portray they pet feature requests as something that others are under a moral imperative to implement to remove discrimination

[04:55:01.0000] <hsivonen>
s/they/their/

[04:55:02.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: Indeed.

[04:56:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I become *very* skeptical about i18n "needs" when I learned what pet features of a handful of linguistics were paraded as needs of Finnish orthography in international committees

[04:59:00.0000] <annevk5>
to be honest, I don't think it's worth changing anything here; doing it at the equality checking level seems way to complex and doing it during parsing will most likely break scripts

[05:00:00.0000] <annevk5>
and doing it for a handful CSS identifiers as fantasai suggested in some issue she filed is also way too much complexity for very little gain

[05:01:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk5: if there indeed are still non-normalizing Vietnamese input methods on Windows, I do think it would be worthwhile to change them to behave like the OS X Vietnamese input method

[05:02:00.0000] <jgraham>
Having not read everything about the selectors thing, it seems like normalizing everything in the parser could have worked if that design was chosen from the start but now the right solution is probably to do nothing

[05:03:00.0000] <hsivonen>
fwiw, normalizing in the encoding decoder is the sane thing to do in the case of converting Windows-1258 to UTF-*

[05:03:01.0000] <annevk5>
jgraham, that would have averse affect if you had both NFD and NFC XML documents (which is possible)

[05:03:02.0000] <annevk5>
s/had/have/

[05:03:03.0000] <zcorpan>
hmm i get ie8 to hang by just doing a seach-in-page

[05:03:04.0000] <annevk5>
s/affect/effects/

[05:03:05.0000] <annevk5>
wow

[05:04:00.0000] <jgraham>
annevk5: What would have adverse effects?

[05:05:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me likes it when he can dump a bunch of bytes into a system and get pretty much the same bytes out again, and gets confused and unhappy when there's all sorts of fancy transformations going on in the middle

[05:05:01.0000] <annevk5>
normalizing the CSS document to NFC would cause it to no longer function with an NFD XML document

[05:06:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: I doubt that people who use XML as a surrogate for ASN.1 would like running normalization at all in their XML processors

[05:06:01.0000] <annevk5>
and congrats for finding more typos :)

[05:07:00.0000] <zcorpan>
/me fails to find failures in http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/color-attributes/001.html that he wasn't expecting

[05:08:00.0000] <jgraham>
annevk5: You would have to normalise everything, HTML, CSS, XML, (ECMAScript should already be normalised although there are ways to break that)

[05:09:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: do actual ECMAScript implementations normalize e.g. function names upon compilation?

[05:10:00.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: It is unclear to me what the ASN.1 problem is, how bad the problem is, and whether it's worse than the current problem

[05:10:01.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: Dunno. Will test

[05:11:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: the ASN.1 problem is using XML as a message format in distributed computing and wanting marshalling and unmarshalling to be *fast*

[05:11:01.0000] <hsivonen>
in which case it's probably a bad idea to use XML at all, but...

[05:15:00.0000] <annevk5>
jgraham, ECMAScript should not be normalized

[05:15:01.0000] <annevk5>
jgraham, there's an authoring requirement that ECMAScript is written in NFC, but that's all there is to it

[05:15:02.0000] <annevk5>
jgraham, I'd be fine with adding such an authoring requirement to CSS, HTML, and XML if that solves it for i18n

[05:16:00.0000] <jgraham>
annevk5: Hmm, I guess you can read the spec that way

[05:16:01.0000] <jgraham>
I had read it as "the text should be normalized to NFC when it is converted to UTF-16"

[05:16:02.0000] <jgraham>
but there's not much to support my reading

[05:17:00.0000] <jgraham>
Mind you there's not much I can see to support the idea that non-UTF-16 text can be used as source at all

[05:17:01.0000] <annevk5>
"Conforming ECMAScript implementations are not required to perform any normalisation of text, or behave as though they were performing normalisation of text, themselves."

[05:18:00.0000] <annevk5>
and "The text is expected to have been normalised to Unicode Normalised Form C"

[05:19:00.0000] <annevk5>
at best it's optional (which is exactly "best", it's bad)

[05:19:01.0000] <jgraham>
annevk5: In my mind I was making a distinction between "the ecmascript implementation" and "the rest of the web browser" where "the ecmascript engine" does nothing to text and "the rest of the web browser" converts it to UTF-16 NFC

[05:19:02.0000] <annevk5>
not exactly*

[05:20:00.0000] <annevk5>
jgraham, I see

[05:23:00.0000] <jgraham>
Anyway it seems that real browsers do not match my interpretation

[05:24:00.0000] <jgraham>
So add ECMAScript to my previous list

[05:55:00.0000] <hsivonen>
https://build.mozilla.org/tryserver-builds/2009-02-09_03:22-hsivonen⊙if/ might be of interest to those who have asked about HTML5 Gecko builds

[05:55:01.0000] <hsivonen>
(layout notification perf still sucks, though)

[05:56:00.0000] <ap>
hsivonen: one way to get non-NFC text on Mac OS X is to paste a file name from Finder into editable content in browser

[05:57:00.0000] <ap>
hsivonen: I want to add normalization to most pasting/dragging code paths in WebKit, but there will still be edge cases, not to mention other browser engines

[06:00:00.0000] <hsivonen>
ap: the exposure of HFS+ internal representation in various places in quite annoying 

[06:00:01.0000] <hsivonen>
ap: including byte-oriented file system APIs

[06:18:00.0000] <takkaria>
hsivonen: oo, an OS X build

[06:22:00.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: Still crashes on startup for me :(

[06:30:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: crashes on startup for me too (on win32)

[06:32:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: also with a fresh profile

[06:34:00.0000] <annevk5>
wfm, cool

[06:35:00.0000] <annevk5>
Ubuntu FTW!

[06:40:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me also had Ubuntu

[06:48:00.0000] <annevk5>
did you unzip it in some random dir and then just run it from there without any other Firefox installation running?

[06:48:01.0000] <annevk5>
(and with that random dir being empty)

[07:00:00.0000] <jgraham>
annevk5: Yes

[07:04:00.0000] <annevk5>
weird

[07:04:01.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Are you running it in a way that makes it attempt to open the profile manager on startup?

[07:04:02.0000] <Philip`>
(I think I had problems with that when I tried it ages ago)

[07:05:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: Oh yeah, I had forgotten that

[07:05:01.0000] <jgraham>
What is the magic option?

[07:06:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: "-p profilename" or something, maybe?

[07:08:00.0000] <jgraham>
Ah, that kindof works

[07:11:00.0000] <jgraham>
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cb%3E%3Ci%3E%3Cp%3Efoo%3C%2Fb%3E%3C%2Fi%3E seems to have broken rendering

[07:23:00.0000] <weinig>
annevk5: hey, I was curious what the reasoning behind the table with a caption exception in the getClientRects algorithm was

[07:25:00.0000] <annevk5>
legacy iirc

[07:25:01.0000] <annevk5>
these APIs originate with IE

[07:26:00.0000] <annevk5>
roc would be the best person to ask :)

[07:27:00.0000] <annevk5>
jgraham, hmm yeah

[07:28:00.0000] <annevk5>
hsivonen, http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cb%3E%3Cp%3Efoo%3C%2Fb%3E is a more minimal version of jgraham's bug

[07:35:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hmm doing firefox.exe -p default worked for me :)

[07:39:00.0000] <weinig>
/me annevk5: nods

[08:09:00.0000] <annevk5>
in the GNOME Terminal, is there a "clear" that removes all text so that when I scroll up after an operation I hit the place where I invoked "clear" rather than going back in history

[08:10:00.0000] <jgraham>
annevk5: What do you mean "go back in history"? Are you scrolling through your input history or just scrolling up the screen? 

[08:10:01.0000] <jgraham>
s/screen/output/

[08:11:00.0000] <Philip`>
annevk5: Do you mean something like the "clear" command?

[08:12:00.0000] <annevk5>
Philip`, yes

[08:12:01.0000] <annevk5>
jgraham, scrolling up the output

[08:13:00.0000] <Philip`>
annevk5: I suggest using the "clear" command, then

[08:13:01.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: But clear (in gnome-terminal at least) just places the existing output further up in the scroll history, it doesn't remove it

[08:13:02.0000] <jgraham>
If that makes sense

[08:13:03.0000] <annevk5>
Philip`, I know about clear, it doesn't work as I want

[08:14:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me doesn't really know how to refer to the total amount of output that one can scroll over

[08:14:01.0000] <jgraham>
/me wonders if there is an easy way to make a suicidal subprocess in Python

[08:15:00.0000] <takkaria>
jgraham: "buffer", I believe

[08:15:01.0000] <jgraham>
Specifically I want something that will automatically kill itself after some timeout if it didn't already die but without having to do proc.wait()

[08:16:00.0000] <jgraham>
(which means that killableprocess.py isn't itself quite enough afaict)

[08:16:01.0000] <jgraham>
takkaria: Ah, yes, that would be it

[08:17:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: I cherry-picked a patch that was supposed to address one startup crash on intrepid

[08:18:00.0000] <jgraham>
annevk5: You can do Terminal - Reset and Clear in the menu, if that helps

[08:18:01.0000] <hsivonen>
It runs for me on Windows 7

[08:18:02.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: It worked after I didn't go through the profile manager

[08:18:03.0000] <jgraham>
the codepath startup -> profile manager -> running instance seems to be the broken one

[08:19:00.0000] <hsivonen>
apparently the crash at startup also happens with fresh profile on the Mozilla servers. I wonder why it works for me.

[08:19:01.0000] <annevk5>
jgraham, "reset" is a command

[08:19:02.0000] <annevk5>
thanks

[08:20:00.0000] <annevk5>
it keeps input history and resets output

[08:20:01.0000] <annevk5>
neato

[08:21:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham, annevk5: the foofoo case looks like the DOM and the CSS render tree get out of sync. I have no idea why. I'll investigate. thanks

[08:21:01.0000] <Philip`>
annevk5: "reset" doesn't seem to clear the scrollback history, at least in Konsole

[08:21:02.0000] <Philip`>
so it's not really any different to "clear"

[08:21:03.0000] <annevk5>
Philip`, it's different in GNOME Terminal

[08:22:00.0000] <Philip`>
(except that reset is more helpful if e.g. you've catted a binary file and it's messed up all the terminal output state)

[08:22:01.0000] <annevk5>
/me actually tested it

[08:23:00.0000] <Philip`>
annevk5: I'm not doubting you, just wondering if it's a terminal-dependent thing, which apparently it is, so that's okay now :-)

[08:45:00.0000] <hsivonen>
doesn't crash for me on Windows XP, either

[08:50:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Man, this really isn't fun :\

[08:51:00.0000] <gsnedders>
<http://www.w3.org/2002/01/tr-automation/tr.rdf> is crazy

[08:52:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: Doesn't RDF make consuming arbitary data foolproof, even if you have no idea what the semantics of the data are?

[08:53:00.0000] <gsnedders>
I looked at one RDF lib for Python, and pretty much concluded, "WTF is this on about?"

[08:53:01.0000] <gsnedders>
I don't want a fucking graph. I want the data in that file.

[08:54:00.0000] <hsivonen>
gsnedders: the data is a graph. there's no tree. these aren't the droids you are looking for.

[08:54:01.0000] <Philip`>
It looks like a very tree-shaped graph

[08:54:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Touché Philip`.

[08:54:03.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: Curiously I did exactly the same thing with exactly that file last time you were working on this :)

[08:55:00.0000] <Dashiva>
They hide the non-tree links to fool you

[08:55:01.0000] <annevk5>
it looks suitable for line by line processing :)

[08:55:02.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Can't you just use regular expressions?

[08:55:03.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: Hey, the XML parsing isn't the issue.

[08:55:04.0000] <gsnedders>
What's in <FirstEdition> seems more or less random

[08:56:00.0000] <jgraham>
Although I think I didn't mind the graphiness so much.

[08:56:01.0000] <hsivonen>
gsnedders: XML-data is self-describing

[08:57:00.0000] <gsnedders>
What the… XML went from /REC-xml to /xml/

[08:57:01.0000] <gsnedders>
so doc:version-of doesn't even work

[08:57:02.0000] <hsivonen>
gsnedders: does it work if you reference URIs and follow redirects?

[08:58:00.0000] <jgraham>
I think I got hung up on the fact that rdflib seemed to want me to learn sparql just to access any data

[08:58:01.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: Me too

[08:59:00.0000] <gsnedders>
hsivonen: It doesn't actually redirect, it just treats them as identical

[09:05:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Also, if I just want to get what the current undated TR is, using doc:versionOf won't always work because of PERs

[09:08:00.0000] <annevk5>
hsivonen, seems you ended up in a wiki edit war :/

[09:08:01.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk5: yeah

[10:26:00.0000] <yecril71>
The preferred image resolution can go as media option in Content-Type.

[10:26:01.0000] <yecril71>
(i.e. in Accept)

[11:22:00.0000] <gsnedders>
heh

[13:01:00.0000] <hober>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Feb/0040.html

[13:09:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hmm, Google says to use 301 redirects if you're moving your site, but what are you meant to do if you can't set up 301 redirects?

[13:10:00.0000] <Philip`>
(All I can do is upload static HTML files)

[13:10:01.0000] <Lachy>
Philip`, which hosting service are you using that only allows static HTML?

[13:11:00.0000] <Lachy>
are you sure you can't upload a .htaccess file or some PHP or python scripts, or something?

[13:11:01.0000] <gsnedders>
http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ — That needs a validating parser :(

[13:13:00.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: My ISP's one, which hasn't really changed since at least 1996, except for increasing the disk quota to 20MB

[13:14:00.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: Scripting is limited to a choice of 4 CGI scripts (count, imagemap, mailform, testform)

[13:15:00.0000] <Lachy>
have you actually tried using a .htaccess file? What happens?

[13:15:01.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: I have tried it; nothing happens

[13:15:02.0000] <Lachy>
ok

[13:16:00.0000] <Philip`>
(Seemingly the server is running thttpd)

[14:25:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan left last night after saying he didn't find any of the failures unexpected

[14:25:01.0000] <Hixie>
but he didn't say why!

[15:05:00.0000] <Hixie>
hm, looks like it was a bug in my escaping code


2009-02-11
[16:08:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me realizes the last time he played on a PS2 was in Mandelieu

[16:09:00.0000] <Dashiva>
That sounds more like a place

[18:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me adds a new feature to the live dom viewer

[19:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok i guess next up is html5/selectors interaction

[21:46:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: IE supports 'transparent'?!

[21:48:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: yep

[21:48:01.0000] <Hixie>
wow

[21:48:02.0000] <Hixie>
i put your mail into my pile, i'll get to it probably later this month or next month, but i haven't forgotten it

[21:48:03.0000] <Hixie>
i'm about to start writing the section that deals with selectors

[21:48:04.0000] <Hixie>
i wonder where to put it

[21:49:00.0000] <zcorpan>
put it in a new section before rendering?

[21:50:00.0000] <Hixie>
that's what i was thinking, but it seems kinda weird to have such a small section be at such a high level

[21:50:01.0000] <Hixie>
i'm thinking a subsection at the end of 4 The elements of HTML

[21:51:00.0000] <zcorpan>
might be good, that'll probably get more attention by authors, too

[22:30:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: "hr[align=left] { margin-left: 0; margin-right: auto; }" - why margin-left: 0?

[22:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: consistency with the center case

[22:36:01.0000] <Hixie>
doesn't really matter, 0 is the default anyway

[22:39:00.0000] <zcorpan>
it would override user styles

[22:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh, good point, that's another reason

[22:41:00.0000] <zcorpan>
why would you want to override user styles?

[22:41:01.0000] <Hixie>
author rules override user rules

[22:41:02.0000] <Hixie>
that's how css works

[22:41:03.0000] <Hixie>
if the author says align=left, then you align left

[22:42:00.0000] <Hixie>
if we didn't say margin-left: 0, you might end up centering

[22:43:00.0000] <zcorpan>
ok

[22:47:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: the spec doesn't say what to do when parsing a legacy color returns an error (for e.g. <hr color>)

[22:47:01.0000] <Hixie>
bummer. can you drop me a mail or file a bug?

[22:47:02.0000] <zcorpan>
sure

[22:47:03.0000] <Hixie>
thanks

[22:59:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Sigh. alt thread rides again.

[23:00:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: there's still "body { color: black; background: white; }"

[23:23:00.0000] <Hixie>
(oops, i forgot to checkin the last set of edits and my next checkin will be a mixed bag of stuff)

[23:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: that's right, no?

[23:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: my bad, sorry

[23:24:02.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: btw use the "save" link for future live dom viewer links

[23:26:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: no. consider this author rule: html { color:green; background:yellow }

[23:26:01.0000] <Hixie>
hm, i guess i'll have to define them as inital values then

[23:26:02.0000] <Hixie>
if you remind me in ten minutes i'll do it then

[23:27:00.0000] <zcorpan>
if you remind me to remind you in ten minutes then i'll remind you :)

[23:27:01.0000] <Hixie>
:-)

[23:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok

[23:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
what was it again? :-)

[23:30:02.0000] <Hixie>
oh yes. colors.

[23:31:00.0000] <Hixie>
Ok, done that.

[23:40:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: maybe an element with a tabindex attribute should also match :active?

[23:40:01.0000] <Hixie>
it can't really be activated?

[23:40:02.0000] <Hixie>
i wasn't sure what to do

[23:41:00.0000] <zcorpan>
you usually put elements in the tab order because they can be activated (with js)

[23:42:00.0000] <Hixie>
i guess

[23:47:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: typo:

[23:47:01.0000] <zcorpan>
+   <dt><dfn> title="selector-read-write"><code>:read-write</code></dfn></dt>

[23:47:02.0000] <Hixie>
thx

[23:48:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: v.nu doesn't catch the above mistake :)

[23:49:00.0000] <hsivonen>
what's the typo?

[23:49:01.0000] <hsivonen>
ooh

[23:50:00.0000] <hsivonen>
blame Hixie and SGML :-)

[23:50:01.0000] <zcorpan>
might be useful to look at pages that have > in data to see how often it is a mistake

[23:51:00.0000] <zcorpan>
(most people think it has to be escaped as &gt;)

[23:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
html5 has > unescaped in a huge number of cases

[23:57:00.0000] <hsivonen>
ap: is it within your power to make the Finder team normalize to NFC when they *export* text to clipboard?

[23:58:00.0000] <ap>
hsivonen: the most effective way to proceed would be for you to file a bug at http://bugreport.apple.com, and for me to track comments on it

[23:58:01.0000] <hsivonen>
ap: ok

[23:59:00.0000] <hsivonen>
ap: upon login attempt: "An error has occurred. Please report the error to Apple Inc. by emailing the error detail to devbugs⊙ac"

[23:59:01.0000] <hsivonen>
(no error detail)

[00:00:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me mails devbugs

[00:00:01.0000] <ap>
hsivonen: weird. that happened for me a few years ago, and devbugs⊙ac did help

[00:03:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me tries to remember to file a bug against erroneous glyph assignment in Apple Symbols, too

[00:59:00.0000] <zcorpan>
annevk5: xhtml compat is nice! don't kill it! :)

[01:01:00.0000] <hsivonen>
what's annevk5 killing?

[01:02:00.0000] <Hixie>
nothing to see there

[01:02:01.0000] <Hixie>
pay no attention to anne

[01:02:02.0000] <Hixie>
:-P

[01:03:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: table[frames=void] > tr > td

[01:03:01.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: ah. 

[01:05:00.0000] <annevk5>
*innocent*

[01:11:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, re http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0328.html - where in the spec does it say that input type=hidden can't be disabled?

[01:11:01.0000] <Hixie>
#selector-enabled

[01:11:02.0000] <Hixie>
oh wait

[01:11:03.0000] <Hixie>
misread your question

[01:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
hm, i guess disabled does apply

[01:12:01.0000] <Hixie>
i'll fix :disabled

[01:13:00.0000] <Lachy>
ok, so the intention is still that neither :enabled or :disabled match hidden inputs?

[01:13:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[01:13:02.0000] <Lachy>
OK, I will go reopen our bug on the issue.

[01:16:00.0000] <annevk5>
cc me in case I am not

[01:17:00.0000] <annevk5>
it seems we also need to change our implementation of :indeterminate

[01:17:01.0000] <Hixie>
oh?

[01:17:02.0000] <annevk5>
the new rules make that Selector far less expensive I think

[01:18:00.0000] <annevk5>
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#relation ":indeterminate Matches radio form control elements when none of the radio buttons in their group are checked."

[01:18:01.0000] <annevk5>
I'm happy with not adding that back in for what it's worth

[01:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
ah

[01:20:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah i just ignored wf2 when writing this new text

[01:20:02.0000] <Hixie>
didn't even look at the old text :-)

[01:20:03.0000] <annevk5>
:read-write and :read-only also changed

[01:21:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah that was in response to feedback

[01:21:01.0000] <Hixie>
see the list

[01:21:02.0000] <annevk5>
is it really useful to have them apply to all elements and have them be influenced by disabled and such?

[01:21:03.0000] <annevk5>
k

[01:21:04.0000] <Hixie>
if you want it changed, change css3ui

[01:21:05.0000] <Hixie>
i'm just following the spec

[01:21:06.0000] <Hixie>
i agree the spec is dumb

[01:23:00.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, grmbl

[01:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
indeed

[01:23:02.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, :active also applies to disabled <input> controls at this point and only to <button> controls that are not disabled

[01:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
k, hold on

[01:25:00.0000] <annevk5>
just so that it's considered, :enabled should still apply to <link href> with .disabled set to true, right?

[01:25:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Is there a URI for a collection of Philip`'s ill-formedness accomplishments?

[01:26:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk5: yes.

[01:26:01.0000] <Hixie>
annevk5: i was considering making :link/:enabled/etc only apply to <link> when the rel="" is a hyperlink and not a resource link, though

[01:26:02.0000] <Hixie>
(not gonna do it)

[01:26:03.0000] <Hixie>
(it'd be too expensive)

[01:26:04.0000] <annevk5>
(agreed)

[01:26:05.0000] <Hixie>
(would be cool though)

[01:27:00.0000] <annevk5>
(UAs scraping a wiki to figure out whether or not :link applies? :p )

[01:27:01.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, why would it be cool? What problem would it solve?

[01:27:02.0000] <Hixie>
cool things rarely solve actual problems :-P

[01:27:03.0000] <Lachy>
ok

[01:27:04.0000] <Lachy>
then I'm glad you're not doing it

[01:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
it would be cool because it would make :link match <link rel=next> and other such things, which are links, but not <link rel=stylesheet>, which isn't a link the user would care about

[01:28:01.0000] <Lachy>
(it's arguable whether a user would care about <link rel=next> anyway)

[01:29:00.0000] <Lachy>
(given that few browsers have any UI for it)

[01:29:01.0000] <Hixie>
HEH

[01:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
er

[01:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[01:30:02.0000] <Lachy>
actually, I think Opera's mysterious Fast Forward button does

[01:30:03.0000] <jgraham>
/me is still recovering from the loudness of the heh

[01:31:00.0000] <Hixie>
d'oh

[01:31:01.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: I wouldn't call them "accomplishments" - all I did was stick some U+FFFFs into query strings :-p

[01:31:02.0000] <Hixie>
i have caps-lock rebound to scroll-lock on this keyboard

[01:31:03.0000] <Hixie>
and my scroll-lock is right next to my f12

[01:31:04.0000] <Hixie>
which i hit a lot when on irc

[01:31:05.0000] <Hixie>
so i keep hitting capslock by mistake

[01:31:06.0000] <Hixie>
not sure where else to put capslock though

[01:32:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me has considered getting rid of capslock entirely

[01:32:01.0000] <annevk5>
it seems making the background-color initial value to be white rather than transparent would break an awful lot of pages

[01:32:02.0000] <annevk5>
that making*

[01:32:03.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, what purpose does scroll lock have? Or do you just use it because it's a useless key that does nothing

[01:32:04.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: There isn't any collection that I'm aware of; the closest thing is http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/03/09/no-fury-like-dracon-scorned#comment-11442 which lists a few examples

[01:32:05.0000] <jgraham>
I alays try to disable capslock, except I am lazy at the moment because the Gnome UI seems to have lost the option 

[01:33:00.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, I think you want something else there, e.g. saying that you expect the canvas to be white and html { color:black }

[01:33:01.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: none, hence why i use it for capslock

[01:33:02.0000] <hsivonen>
as far as key remapping goes, I still haven't found a way to introduce an Insert key onto my keyboard for testing Orca and NVDA

[01:33:03.0000] <Hixie>
annevk5: valid, fixing...

[01:33:04.0000] <jgraham>
Although it does have a bizzare number of capslock-related options

[01:33:05.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, though CSS might already say that the canvas is white somewhere

[01:33:06.0000] <annevk5>
/me forgot

[01:33:07.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: You could remap capslock onto the 'hold down shift' key sequence, and then you wouldn't have to spare an extra key for it

[01:33:08.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: is it useful to have :link and :visited match anything but <a href>?

[01:34:00.0000] <zcorpan>
<link> and <area> are display:none anyway

[01:34:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: sticky shift has slightly different semantics than capslock, though

[01:34:02.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: yeah, fair point

[01:34:03.0000] <Hixie>
/me tries to remember how to unmap keys so that his useless capslock key turns into a useless scrolllock key again

[01:35:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh actually it's not scroll lock

[01:35:01.0000] <Hixie>
it's printscr/sysreq

[01:36:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: i usually remove the key altogether

[01:36:01.0000] <Hixie>
wow, i crashed my keyboard.

[01:36:02.0000] <Hixie>
oh i remember why i had capslock bound to this key now

[01:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
it's because i'd rebound that key elsewhere, and then turned it into a macro for command-tab

[01:37:01.0000] <Hixie>
so now if i miss my f12 key instead of getting caps lock, i'll end up in a different app

[01:37:02.0000] <Hixie>
oh well

[01:38:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me has mapped two key for tab, one for each hand

[01:38:01.0000] <Lachy>
zcorpan, Opera matches <link href=""> and <area href=""> with :link and :visited. It may be useful with selectors API, even if its not so useful with CSS

[01:38:02.0000] <zcorpan>
Lachy: oh we do? can we click <link>s too?

[01:39:00.0000] <annevk5>
"not when using proper tools"

[01:39:01.0000] <annevk5>
"writing proper tools is non-trivial"

[01:39:02.0000] <annevk5>
-> problem

[01:39:03.0000] <Lachy>
zcorpan, I don't understand the question

[01:39:04.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: OK. I ended up referring to http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/03/09/no-fury-like-dracon-scorned#comment-11442 via www-archive indirection

[01:40:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Lachy: if you make a <link> visible and have content, does clicking it make opera follow the link?

[01:40:01.0000] <jgraham>
/me successfully locates the GUI option to disable capslock

[01:40:02.0000] <Lachy>
I don't know

[01:41:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: interesting, which is the other key you have mapped to tab?

[01:41:01.0000] <Lachy>
zcorpan, no, that doesn't work

[01:42:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: I've mapped what used to be caps lock to tab, and I have mapped what used to be right-hand ctrl to tab

[01:42:01.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: ok

[01:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
i don't have a right-hand control anymore

[01:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
my right hand modifiers are alt, command, and shift

[01:43:02.0000] <Lachy>
why is there even a need to disable caps lock? It's useful on rare occasions and it's not that hard to avoid pressingit

[01:43:03.0000] <Hixie>
(and left hand are shift, control, and command)

[01:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: no need, i just needed the key for another purpose (one-key command-tab so i don't have to stretch my hand to hit that combination)

[01:44:01.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: It is the single most pointless key on the keyborad

[01:44:02.0000] <Hixie>
(i was getting hand strain from it)

[01:44:03.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: it's high up there, but it's at least third, maybe fourth

[01:44:04.0000] <jgraham>
For me it causes problems far more than it solves them

[01:44:05.0000] <jgraham>
So it has negative value

[01:44:06.0000] <jgraham>
Whereas others just have no value

[01:45:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, you said before that you had it mapped to scroll lock, and now you're saying it's Cmd+Tab?

[01:45:01.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: my caps lock key is mapped to print screen (i thought it was scroll lock, but i was mistaken), and the print screen function is mapped to a macro that hits command-tab

[01:45:02.0000] <jgraham>
/me wonders what Hixie has F12 doing

[01:46:00.0000] <Hixie>
f12 inserts a line in my irc window so i know how far i've read

[01:46:01.0000] <Hixie>
(and in emacs, it brings up the shell)

[01:46:02.0000] <jgraham>
Interesting

[01:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
(i also rebound the "international" key to command-tilde)

[01:51:00.0000] <Lachy>
what's the "international" key?

[01:53:00.0000] <Hixie>
it's labelled "| \ Insert", dunno what it is

[01:53:01.0000] <Hixie>
(i have another key with "| \" on the other side)

[01:54:00.0000] <Lachy>
I've never seen a key labelled like that. What keyboard layout do you have?

[01:54:01.0000] <Lachy>
obviously it's not a standard US layout

[01:54:02.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: the margin collapse thing is still wrong because the margins are 0 even when there's a border (and so the margins cannot collapse with each other)

[01:54:03.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: on body, th, td

[01:54:04.0000] <Hixie>
lachy: standard US qwerty/dvorak dual label kineses advantage

[01:54:05.0000] <Hixie>
kinesis

[01:56:00.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, the initial value of the color property is also not expected to be black; e.g. <span style=color:green><span>this is green</span></span>

[01:57:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: the "international key" also appears on typical European PC keyboard hardware

[01:57:01.0000] <hsivonen>
i.e. there's a key there

[01:57:02.0000] <Hixie>
annevk5: color is inherited

[01:57:03.0000] <hsivonen>
but the U.S. layout makes it a duplicate of the backslash key

[01:58:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, this one? http://www.fentek-ind.com/kinesis_dvorak.gif

[01:58:01.0000] <Lachy>
although I don't see any key labelled "| \ Insert"

[01:58:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: the international key is the one to the left of left arrow on that chart

[01:58:03.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: yeah

[01:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: next to ~` and <- and ->

[01:59:01.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: i think annevk5 is saying that per css, color's initial value is 'inherit', but per html5 it's instead 'black'

[01:59:02.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: anne is wrong then. no property has initial value 'inherit'

[01:59:03.0000] <Lachy>
oh, that's just the backslash key. Why are you calling it the "international" key?

[01:59:04.0000] <Hixie>
the backslash key is the one above the right shift

[02:00:00.0000] <Hixie>
below the question mark / forward slash key

[02:00:01.0000] <Hixie>
(and the question mark / forward slash key is the backslash key on the qwerty layout)

[02:01:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: ok, but still, the initial value of background-color is transparent

[02:01:01.0000] <Hixie>
wow i just had the hardest time typing qwerty, despite actually now being on a qwerty keyboard

[02:01:02.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: already fixed

[02:01:03.0000] <zcorpan>
ok

[02:02:00.0000] <Lachy>
ok, so the international key which is labelled with "| \" on the left, doesn't actually type | or \?

[02:02:01.0000] <Hixie>
it does on the US standard layout, but on european layouts, e.g., it would do something else

[02:02:02.0000] <Hixie>
depending on the layout

[02:02:03.0000] <Hixie>
it's basically an extra key for layouts that ned another key

[02:02:04.0000] <Hixie>
many US keyboards don't physically have this key

[02:03:00.0000] <Lachy>
ok, here's a standard slightly less confusing european layout http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/51/3049331182291562/www.info.apple.com/images/kbase/304933/304933_08b.gif

[02:04:00.0000] <annevk5>
ah you're right

[02:04:01.0000] <annevk5>
maybe we should just change the initial value to 'black'

[02:04:02.0000] <annevk5>
in css3-color or so

[02:05:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: how do I find out if a script has done "crazy modifications" without always doing thread synchronization in the AAA and without keeping crazy state in the tree?

[02:05:01.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: The Apple idea of what constitutes a non_US english keyboard layout is different to anyone else's idea

[02:07:00.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, a/canvas's/canvas'/ ?

[02:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: pass an assertion along to the main thread, and rewind if the assertion fails (it rarely will)

[02:08:01.0000] <Lachy>
jgraham, aside from the Cmd key, isn't it close enough?

[02:09:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: in that case, I'd have to keep around enough state to be able to rewind

[02:09:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: keeping around that state as seldom as </script> occurs is OK, keeping it for many token boundaries is less so

[02:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: that's pretty much how i feel about your alternative suggestion :-)

[02:10:01.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: you want everyone to keep this state instead of just you, to be able to do something that doesn't seem particularly useful in the first place :-)

[02:11:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: I agree that it probably doesn't make sense to spec it without there being a demo implementation showing benefit

[02:12:00.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: It moves a bunch of the punctuation around compared to the standard en-GB keyboard

[02:12:01.0000] <Hixie>
it's not like you have to keep much state to rewind anyway

[02:12:02.0000] <Hixie>
just the position in the input stream, and what data was inserted into the stream after the assertion (which can be done by annotating insertions with an age)

[02:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
just include that information with the assertion

[02:13:01.0000] <Hixie>
and have the main thread include it when it complains

[02:35:00.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, HTMLInputElement still does not have width and height DOM attributes

[02:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
fixed

[02:54:00.0000] <annevk5>
so it's not legal to write <table><tr> in HTML or it is and I'm misunderstanding the writing section?

[03:00:00.0000] <Lachy>
annevk5, it is legal because the tbody element's start tag is optional

[03:41:00.0000] <annevk5>
funny

[03:41:01.0000] <annevk5>
"the tools will save us" on google gives "XML.com: XML on the Web Has Failed" as top 3 result

[03:45:00.0000] <hsivonen>
hah

[04:14:00.0000] <yecril71>
The Scroll Lock key toggles the Scroll Lock mode.

[04:14:01.0000] <yecril71>
A fictional language cannot be invented; art is not an invention.

[04:15:00.0000] <yecril71>
And a fictional language cannot be used, except by fictional characters; once it is used, it stops being fictional.

[04:17:00.0000] <yecril71>
I hope non-interactive documents will be readable and have a similar organization in various browsers.

[04:17:01.0000] <yecril71>
(organisation = visual layout)

[04:18:00.0000] <yecril71>
Otherwise, HTML cannot be used for publishing and authors will have to stay with PDF.

[04:19:00.0000] <yecril71>
(I admit it is far from the Web Applications trend)

[04:21:00.0000] <hendry>
/me wonders if there is already a tool to split up a large HTML file into seperate HTML files (with next/prev). Want to chunk an HTML book.

[04:22:00.0000] <yecril71>
Split on H2 or what?

[04:23:00.0000] <hendry>
yecril71: split on 1000 lines or something I was thinking

[04:23:01.0000] <jgraham>
hendry: Philip` just wrote a custom script for splitting the HTML5 spec

[04:23:02.0000] <yecril71>
1000 lines no good, the user will be lost.

[04:24:00.0000] <hendry>
jgraham: ah cool, could you point me to the source? or Philip` ?

[04:24:01.0000] <hendry>
yecril71: these are project Gutenberg ebooks. HTML formatting is not great. I think I am probably better off with text.

[04:25:00.0000] <hendry>
yecril71: and using `split` and wrap it in some HTML.

[04:27:00.0000] <jgraham>
hendry: I guess I can do something like

[04:27:01.0000] <yecril71>
If they are in HTML, I would count top-level elements, not lines

[04:27:02.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: ^

[04:27:03.0000] <hsivonen>
hendry: I'm curious: what kind of reading environment needs splitting? A device with 64 MB of RAM handles unsplit Gutenberg ebooks unsplit

[04:28:00.0000] <yecril71>
I think, whatever the hardware is, the software should be smart enough to handle that somehow.

[04:28:01.0000] <hendry>
hsivonen: this HTC device running Pocket IE seems to have issues with 200K files.

[04:28:02.0000] <hsivonen>
hendry: you need a better browser :-)

[04:30:00.0000] <hendry>
hsivonen: i don't have too much choice as this widget runtime uses that browser control. :-) so you read ebooks eh? How do you 'bookmark' the page you're on?

[04:30:01.0000] <yecril71>
The bookmarks should already be there.

[04:31:00.0000] <hendry>
yecril71: explain?

[04:31:01.0000] <hsivonen>
hendry: I try to avoid quitting the browser and failing that, remembering which chapter I was in

[04:31:02.0000] <yecril71>
Headers have identifiers, these identifiers constitute bookmarks you can use.

[04:31:03.0000] <yecril71>
You can discover them by looking at the table of contents.

[04:32:00.0000] <yecril71>
Failing that, remember a key phrase and perform a text search.

[04:32:01.0000] <Philip`>
hendry: http://code.google.com/p/html5/source/browse/trunk/spec-splitter/spec-splitter.py

[04:33:00.0000] <killerboy>
hello

[04:33:01.0000] <Philip`>
hendry: but that's very much designed for HTML5, not for general-purpose use

[04:33:02.0000] <Philip`>
hendry: (and it splits on <h2>s and a custom list of elements IDs, not on page size)

[04:33:03.0000] <yecril71>
The assignment is trivial once you have the DOM.

[04:33:04.0000] <jgraham>
A good ebook reader would allow you to easilly resume from an arbitary point

[04:33:05.0000] <hendry>
Philip`: thanks and understood

[04:34:00.0000] <killerboy>
i'd like to know who can read localStorage. Is access domain based, and if such, what about ISP which give you names like: http://www.ispdomain.com/~mysite/

[04:35:00.0000] <Philip`>
I keep my place in ebooks by printing them out and using a scrap of paper as a bookmark

[04:35:01.0000] <annevk5>
killerboy, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/structured-client-side-storage.html#cross-directory-attacks

[04:37:00.0000] <killerboy>
hmm, isn't path based access possible?

[04:37:01.0000] <annevk5>
no

[04:37:02.0000] <killerboy>
and why not ;-)

[04:37:03.0000] <annevk5>
because you can circumvent it as the spec says

[04:37:04.0000] <killerboy>
how is it possible to circumvent it?

[04:37:05.0000] <killerboy>
some examples?

[04:38:00.0000] <annevk5>
e.g. inserting an <iframe> with a different path on the same domain and then running a script in that context

[04:38:01.0000] <killerboy>
ok

[04:38:02.0000] <killerboy>
but same problem with domains isn't it?

[04:39:00.0000] <killerboy>
why you cannot treat paths as "long domains" and use same solution as for domains

[04:39:01.0000] <annevk5>
no, <iframe>s have a cross-origin restriction

[04:40:00.0000] <annevk5>
so it's a different problem

[04:40:01.0000] <annevk5>
(or no problem, depending on how you look at it)

[04:40:02.0000] <killerboy>
so you can add this restriction and make it path based, but add some tag to iframe, to turn it off etc.

[04:41:00.0000] <killerboy>
or something similar

[04:41:01.0000] <annevk5>
I'd suggest you first get a basic understanding of the Web security model before trying to change it

[04:41:02.0000] <killerboy>
ok

[04:41:03.0000] <annevk5>
well, more than basic would probably be good :)

[04:41:04.0000] <killerboy>
some links?

[04:42:00.0000] <annevk5>
whatwg.org/html5 defines a bunch of it

[04:42:01.0000] <killerboy>
ok

[04:42:02.0000] <Philip`>
/me doesn't remember having ever seen a decent description of what the Web security model actually is

[04:42:03.0000] <killerboy>
i'll come back after reading

[04:44:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: I thought it was defined to be "duct tape and string"

[04:44:01.0000] <annevk5>
killerboy, cool!

[04:44:02.0000] <Philip`>
Mostly I've just seen that it's complex and fragile and poorly designed, and nobody is willing to make it worse in any way, and it's very hard to make it better in some ways without making it worse in other ways, so nothing much ever changes

[04:45:00.0000] <annevk5>
Philip`, e.g. http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/ is a pretty major change

[04:45:01.0000] <hsivonen>
was Same Origin in Netscape 2.0 or was it added later?

[04:46:00.0000] <Philip`>
annevk5: Since the first draft was almost four years ago and it's still not a feature I can use today, I'll interpret that as evidence that changing the security model is very hard :-)

[04:48:00.0000] <annevk5>
indeed :)

[05:07:00.0000] <annevk5>
hsivonen, per https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Same_origin_policy_for_JavaScript it was 2.0

[05:07:01.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk5: thanks

[05:23:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me waves

[05:26:00.0000] <takkaria>
heh

[05:26:01.0000] <takkaria>
in my Logic lectures at the moment, we're doing axiomatic proofs

[05:27:00.0000] <takkaria>
I wanted to shout "Fear the axiomatic proof!"

[05:27:01.0000] <killerboy>
is it ##logic channel ;-) ?

[05:27:02.0000] <annevk5>
takkaria, lol, the moment you said axiomatic proofs I looked up http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1041735552&count=1

[05:28:00.0000] <takkaria>
:)

[05:29:00.0000] <Philip`>
How can a non-axiomatic proof be a proof at all?

[05:30:00.0000] <Philip`>
It's kind of hard to do anything unless you're starting with some axioms

[05:30:01.0000] <takkaria>
if you have a system that uses natual deduction instead of axioms you can

[05:30:02.0000] <annevk5>
haha: http://www.google.com/search?q=axiomatic+proof

[05:30:03.0000] <killerboy>
takkaria,  :-)

[05:32:00.0000] <killerboy>
annevk5, i've read security related parts of html5

[05:32:01.0000] <gsnedders>
takkaria: What are you doing at uni?

[05:32:02.0000] <killerboy>
all it says is that it's domain based

[05:33:00.0000] <Philip`>
takkaria: Hmm, I appear to know nothing about that :-(

[05:33:01.0000] <takkaria>
gsnedders: philosophy

[05:34:00.0000] <annevk5>
killerboy, it's origin based

[05:34:01.0000] <killerboy>
annevk5, which is domain based

[05:34:02.0000] <gsnedders>
takkaria: That's what I thought. I guess logic has an effect on that. :)

[05:34:03.0000] <killerboy>
+scheme etc...

[05:35:00.0000] <killerboy>
+port, +certificates, and other additional data

[05:35:01.0000] <takkaria>
gsnedders: formal logic is pretty much inseperable from western philosophy as of the early twentieth century

[05:35:02.0000] <killerboy>
takkaria, if you're interested in logic, come to ##logic, you're welcomed

[05:36:00.0000] <annevk5>
now combine that with the fact that it has been like that since Netscape 2.0 and try to comprehend that making it path based at this point just because localStorage does not work on shared hosting providers that use directories is not going to happen

[05:36:01.0000] <takkaria>
gsnedders: the most prominent western philosophers from 1880-1930 or so were also logicians and mathematitians

[05:36:02.0000] <takkaria>
killerboy: hm, I may do

[05:36:03.0000] <killerboy>
takkaria, which year of philo?

[05:37:00.0000] <takkaria>
killerboy: second

[05:38:00.0000] <killerboy>
annevk5, i understand that. you might remember this line: <killerboy> hmm, isn't path based access possible? <annevk5> no

[05:38:01.0000] <killerboy>
annevk5, maybe we used "possible" in different meanings

[05:39:00.0000] <killerboy>
takkaria, ok

[05:40:00.0000] <annevk5>
killerboy, ok

[05:58:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: Does it count as a bug whenever nu.validator.htmlparser.tools.XML2XML produces output that is not well-formed XML?

[05:58:01.0000] <Philip`>
e.g. when the input is <?xml version="1.1"?><x xmlns:x=""/>

[06:28:00.0000] <killerboy>
was canvas influenced by postscript?

[06:28:01.0000] <annevk5>
ask Apple :)

[06:29:00.0000] <annevk5>
but I think that might be the case

[06:30:00.0000] <Philip`>
killerboy: I'd guess PDF is part of the chain that led to the canvas API

[06:30:01.0000] <killerboy>
it's because function names are similar :-)

[06:31:00.0000] <Philip`>
killerboy: like maybe PS -> PDF -> Quartz -> canvas, or something, though I know very little about anything but the last of those stages, so maybe I'm totally wrong

[06:31:01.0000] <killerboy>
ok

[06:52:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: yes, it counts as a bug. I was relying on the XML parser enforcing input XML 1.0-compliance. I guess one can't trust any third-party code.

[06:53:00.0000] <annevk5>
to wit, that is XML 1.0 compliant

[06:54:00.0000] <hsivonen>
umm. XML 1.0 plus Namespaces in XML 1.0

[06:54:01.0000] <annevk5>
that's not what I meant, but I'm wrong

[06:54:02.0000] <annevk5>
even in 5th edition xmlns:x="" is incorrect

[06:55:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: Does the parser ever claim to be an XML 1.0 parser?

[06:56:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: in my defense, my serializer meets its spec. but my choice of SAX event generator doesn't. So you win.

[06:56:01.0000] <hsivonen>
good question

[06:56:02.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: But your serialiser's spec seems to be "if you give it input that won't result in ill-formed output, then it will serialise to well-formed output" :-p

[06:58:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Yay! Now building index of RFCs from XML index in less than two seconds.

[06:58:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: the spec is that text content, attribute values and PI data are considered untrusted but namespace mappings, element names, attribute names and PI targets are considered trusted

[06:58:02.0000] <gsnedders>
(from a local copy of the XML index — doing it with urllib2 and getting the index takes around five minutes :P)

[06:58:03.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: also, namespace mappings are not required

[06:58:04.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: so in this case, a namespace mapping is fed to the serializer and the mapping is trusted

[07:00:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: it seems that SAXParserFactory is silent on XML version

[07:02:00.0000] <hsivonen>
let this be evidence that XML 1.1 is Trouble

[07:06:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Who is the picture of in the latest lastweek?

[07:06:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: it turns out that SAX makes detecting the situation pretty annoying, too.

[07:07:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Dashiva: Hixie

[07:11:00.0000] <killerboy>
thanks for all, bye

[07:13:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Ah, without glasses.

[07:17:00.0000] <hsivonen>
what does the following sentence mean? "That the world has been doing evil while processing XML as a browser format (MSIE and Mozilla being potentially the biggest actors) is not debatable anymore and justifies fully the lack of widespreadness."

[07:18:00.0000] <annevk5>
I have no idea; I was also wondering how we obscure prossing models in browsers

[07:18:01.0000] <Philip`>
/me didn't understand it when he first read

[07:18:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Where is that from?

[07:19:00.0000] <hsivonen>
gsnedders: www-tag

[07:19:01.0000] <Philip`>
(nor any subsequent times I read it)

[07:20:00.0000] <annevk5>
s/prossing/processing/ (maybe this is how)

[07:22:00.0000] <jcranmer>
lemme try to understand it

[07:23:00.0000] <jcranmer>
a. The world has been doing evil

[07:23:01.0000] <jcranmer>
a.1 This evil is processing XML as a browse format

[07:23:02.0000] <jcranmer>
a.2 MSIE and Mozilla are potentially the biggest actors

[07:23:03.0000] <jcranmer>
b. This fact is not debatable anymore

[07:24:00.0000] <jcranmer>
c. This fact also justifies why it has failed to become widespread

[07:24:01.0000] <jcranmer>
although the antecedent of the last it eludes me

[07:24:02.0000] <hsivonen>
jcranmer: so is "the world" or "MSIE and Mozilla" doing evil?

[07:24:03.0000] <annevk5>
I'm guessing he meant that XML did not became widespread because browsers processed it as HTML and not as XML and the fault lies with Mozilla/MSIE

[07:25:00.0000] <jcranmer>
I'm guessing "the world" == browser vendors, primarily "MSIE and Mozilla"

[07:25:01.0000] <hsivonen>
but Mozilla does process XML as XML

[07:25:02.0000] <annevk5>
I'm taking several leaps here of course

[07:26:00.0000] <annevk5>
hsivonen, I'm guessing he wanted XHTML as text/html to be processed as XML too

[07:26:01.0000] <annevk5>
(if anyone really wants to know they should ask the person who wrote it, to be clear)

[07:28:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk5: I think the blame for text/html handling lies largely on the W3C itself and O'Reilly

[07:29:00.0000] <annevk5>
yeah, the old HTML WG decided that

[07:29:01.0000] <annevk5>
I'm glad they did

[07:31:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
hsivonen: why O'Reilly?

[07:33:00.0000] <hsivonen>
MikeSmith: when Netscape/Mozilla made the decision, O'Reilly xml.com was already serving ill-formed XHTML as text/html

[07:33:01.0000] <MikeSmith>
ah

[07:34:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Which side of the draconian debate was O'Reilly on?

[08:16:00.0000] <annevk5>
/me figures out how to read the Web IDL ECMAScript binding part on "Operations"

[08:16:01.0000] <annevk5>
/me is glad he's not writing that specification

[08:31:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
has anybody used Yahoo BrowserPlus much?

[08:41:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me refrains from mentioning how even if XOM guaranteed well-formed output, it could result in DOS attacks when, say, your web site stores the visitors' IP addresses in an SQL database, and then appends the IP values as text nodes when generating a document to display to another user

[08:41:01.0000] <Philip`>
...e.g. in a wiki-type situation

[08:42:00.0000] <Philip`>
...and then the user tricks your system by sending an X-Forwarded-For header with invalid bytes in it, which your code treats as the user's IP address and stores in the database

[08:42:01.0000] <Philip`>
...and when you try to construct a XOM tree for subsequent users, you get a fatal exception because of those invalid bytes

[08:44:00.0000] <Philip`>
(At least it's better than using string concatenation, where you'll probably get an XSS attack rather than a DOS attack)

[08:45:00.0000] <annevk5>
haha

[08:45:01.0000] <annevk5>
/me blogged it

[08:49:00.0000] <hsivonen>
what was the meeting where W3C decided to stop working on HTML? in 2000 or thereabouts

[08:49:01.0000] <Philip`>
annevk5: It's only a bug, it's not that exciting really :-p

[08:50:00.0000] <annevk5>
last XML {day} was also just a bug

[08:51:00.0000] <Philip`>
annevk5: That one wasn't that exciting really either :-)

[08:51:01.0000] <annevk5>
indeed, my blog is not that exciting :)

[08:51:02.0000] <annevk5>
just a blog after all

[08:54:00.0000] <hsivonen>
has MS ever acknowledged the disbanding of the IE team after IE6?

[08:54:01.0000] <hsivonen>
or is the official story that they were working on IE7 all along?

[08:55:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: Is there a sensible reason why you output &#xD; for \r in comments, instead of just dropping the character or outputting a space or something?

[08:55:01.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: (Anything is going to cause data loss, but &#xD; seems a weirder thing to pick than the alternatives)

[08:55:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: the reason is code reuse, and yes, you've found a bug

[08:56:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: (particularly since "--" is written as "- -", not "-&#xwhatever;")

[08:56:01.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: Ah, okay

[08:56:02.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: (It affects PIs too)

[08:56:03.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: thanks

[08:58:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
hsivonen: it was 1998

[08:58:01.0000] <MikeSmith>
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/future/

[08:59:00.0000] <hsivonen>
MikeSmith: thanks

[08:59:01.0000] <MikeSmith>
workshop somewhat ironically (in hindsight) titled "Shaping the Future of HTML"

[09:00:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
lots more history stuff at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/history

[09:00:01.0000] <hsivonen>
MikeSmith: thanks

[09:00:02.0000] <hsivonen>
(I'm writing the history part for my HTML5 lecture)

[09:02:00.0000] <Philip`>
MikeSmith: That Future thing doesn't sound much like XHTML

[09:03:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
hsivonen: please make any updates to that page if you find anything to add to it

[09:03:01.0000] <hsivonen>
MikeSmith: OK

[09:04:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
Philip`: maybe the right Future has not arrived yet

[09:05:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
or maybe that workshop actually caused an alternate universe to spring into existence -- one where everything it working just as envisioned by the participants

[09:06:00.0000] <Philip`>
(I suppose it sounds somewhat like XHTML2, though)

[09:07:00.0000] <Philip`>
Clearly the problem was that Mozilla and Google didn't participate in that workshop

[09:08:00.0000] <Philip`>
I can't imagine why they thought it was unimportant they could simply ignore it

[09:08:01.0000] <Philip`>
s/was/was so/

[09:17:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/future/papers/roconnor.html - <?IS10744:arch name="HTML 5.0" public-id="-//W3C//NOTATION HTML 5.0 ARCHITECTURE//EN" dtd-public-id="-//W3C//DTD HTML 5.0//EN" doc-elem-form="HTML"> - yeah, I think I prefer <!doctype html>

[09:19:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
gsnedders: maybe you can do a comparative analysis of RDF, XSD, and Architectural Forms 

[09:20:00.0000] <gsnedders>
MikeSmith: In terms of how horrible they are? :)

[09:22:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://web.archive.org/web/20010606223122/www.sisu.se/~william/Papers/Image6.gif - wow

[09:23:00.0000] <Dashiva>
That's so... 90s

[09:25:00.0000] <Philip`>
I don't remember the 90s being that bad

[09:26:00.0000] <Lachy>
LOL, "The transition to supporting HTML architectures can be made easier by allowing user agent support to be optional" (from that HTML 5.0 paper Philip` linked to)

[09:27:00.0000] <Lachy>
I just wonder how intentional lack of support can make any transition easier

[09:27:01.0000] <Dashiva>
"Most authors will validate their documents against the HTML DTD since it provides enough structure."

[09:28:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://datapeak.net/images/Windows-95-Start-Button.png - even Win95 had nice 3Dish buttons and full-colour background images

[09:28:01.0000] <Philip`>
There's no excuse for using dark cyan as your primary UI colour

[09:28:02.0000] <Dashiva>
That's more like win3.11 days

[09:29:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Early 90s then :)

[09:29:01.0000] <Philip`>
But that screenshot was from 1998

[09:29:02.0000] <Dashiva>
Legacy software

[09:29:03.0000] <Philip`>
and the developers can't have kept it alive from the early 90s up until 1998 without tearing their eyeballs out

[09:30:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Maybe they're color blind?

[09:31:00.0000] <Philip`>
Does colour blindness give you the ability to read horrendously dithered logos?

[09:31:01.0000] <MikeSmith>
I'm looking forward to the day where people look back on the history of HTML5 and make smartass comments about what idiots we all were.

[09:31:02.0000] <MikeSmith>
wait, people are doing that already

[09:31:03.0000] <Dashiva>
We're ahead of the curve

[09:31:04.0000] <MikeSmith>
so we are way ahead of the curve

[09:31:05.0000] <MikeSmith>
damn, we even think the same things at the same time

[09:32:00.0000] <Lachy>
you idiots!

[09:32:01.0000] <MikeSmith>
HTML5 borg collective

[09:32:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Another thing I'd like in html5lib: some way to indent a whole tree nicely

[09:32:03.0000] <Dashiva>
The vast #whatwg hivemind

[09:33:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
gsnedders: postprocess it through xmllint --format --html

[09:33:01.0000] <MikeSmith>
if's it html

[09:34:00.0000] <gsnedders>
MikeSmith: How does that cope with optional tags? Does it just parse it and serialize it? If so, libxml2's serializer has issues

[09:34:01.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: That wasn't a smartass comment, that was just hurtful and abusive :'-(

[09:34:02.0000] <MikeSmith>
gsnedders: dunno

[09:35:00.0000] <Lachy>
Philip`, :-)

[09:35:01.0000] <Philip`>
Does it indent <pre> and <textarea> contents too?

[09:35:02.0000] <Dashiva>
Philip`: How do you think XHTML sites feel when you push invalid content on them?

[09:35:03.0000] <MikeSmith>
Philip`: probably

[09:37:00.0000] <mpt>
Dashiva, jaundiced

[09:37:01.0000] <Philip`>
Dashiva: They are relieved to be free from the burden of publishing large quantities of information, and happy to sit back and relax in the warm yellow glow

[09:38:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: But I use WebKit based browsers! :'(

[09:42:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
"I repeat B.S again." is an interesting statement

[09:45:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
maybe we should have a rule that anybody working on standards related to browser technologies should have to work at a browser project for 3 months or something

[09:45:01.0000] <MikeSmith>
doing QA and responding to bug reports

[09:45:02.0000] <MikeSmith>
like military service

[09:47:00.0000] <mpt>
Do user interface bug reports count?

[09:49:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
mpt: they count for half

[09:52:00.0000] <Philip`>
Is 3 months long enough for people to stop saying "RESOLVED INVALID: your page is ugly tag soup and doesn't validate, you should fix it before complaining about bugs" in response to every report?

[09:53:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
Philip`: that's what we have the electric shocker for

[09:53:01.0000] <MikeSmith>
all part of the plan

[09:54:00.0000] <mpt>
That was part of the original plan for Mozuki

[09:54:01.0000] <mpt>
If pages didn't validate, style sheets would be ignored

[09:55:00.0000] <mpt>
I don't think anyone ever used that browser, though

[09:55:01.0000] <Dashiva>
What about @style?

[10:00:00.0000] <sicking>
hsivonen, ping

[10:05:00.0000] <Philip`>
mpt: http://web.archive.org/web/20000817010453/http://www.infidels.org/~meta/mozuki/ ?

[10:06:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me fails to find any more information on it

[10:07:00.0000] <mpt>
That's the one!

[10:21:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: Is there a sensible reason why processingInstruction adds a space at the end if 'data' ends in '?'?

[10:21:01.0000] <Philip`>
(i.e. processingInstruction("foo", "?") becomes <?foo ? ?> instead of <?foo ??>)

[10:24:00.0000] <annevk5>
hober, dude, there's no 1998 XHTML namespace

[10:33:00.0000] <Philip`>
annevk5: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22www.w3.org%2F1998%2Fxhtml - some people disagree

[10:34:00.0000] <annevk5>
that's awesome

[10:44:00.0000] <mpt>
/me is momentarily confused as to why annevk5 isn't annevk6n

[10:44:01.0000] <annevk5>
http://twitter.com/WoollyMittens/statuses/1199866236 ?

[10:44:02.0000] <annevk5>
mpt, what's the n?

[10:45:00.0000] <mpt>
annevk5, the last letter, as in i18n and l10n

[10:46:00.0000] <annevk5>
:)

[10:50:00.0000] <hober>
annevk5: yeah, I was just repeating what larry said in his email. s/8/9/g.

[11:24:00.0000] <roc>
hsivonen: I don't know what you mean by "official"

[11:25:00.0000] <roc>
but various Microsoft employees have acknowledged it in public statements

[11:25:01.0000] <roc>
I'm not aware of anyone trying to pretend they were working on IE7 all along

[11:37:00.0000] <millam>
Anybody here working on video and media elements (related to accessibility in particular) that I can yak with?

[13:23:00.0000] <Hixie>
holy crap microsoft just licensed the IE logo as creative commons non-commercial by-attribution share-alike

[13:24:00.0000] <Philip`>
It's just a shame it's 17x17, not 16x16 :-)

[13:24:01.0000] <virtuelv>
Hixie: sauce?

[13:24:02.0000] <Hixie>
turns out i don't need it anymore either

[13:24:03.0000] <Hixie>
:-)

[13:26:00.0000] <Philip`>
virtuelv: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Feb/0240.html

[13:28:00.0000] <Philip`>
In response to a message which isn't on public-html yet: Microsoft's test feedback cycle appears to be an awful lot slower than the usual approach where I comment on IRC to the person who wrote the test and they fix it

[13:30:00.0000] <Lachy>
it's too bad the share-alike licence makes it unusable in the spec too

[13:31:00.0000] <Lachy>
well, maybe it doesn't. It may just mean you can't use a more restrictive licence than share-alike

[13:31:01.0000] <Philip`>
That's better than the other icons, which don't come with any licensing information whatsoever

[13:37:00.0000] <heycam>
i wonder if showing it as less than full opacity is considered a derivative

[13:38:00.0000] <heycam>
*at less

[13:40:00.0000] <Lachy>
aargh, I wish that namespace issue in the HTMLWG would just be closed already. There's little point even discussing the issue further, since there is absolutely no technical justification for us using an alternative namespace.

[13:41:00.0000] <Lachy>
but it's nice to see Rob blatantly ignoring technical arguments again

[13:45:00.0000] <yecril71>
Windows Help used green for hyperlinks, and so did the Macintosh port.

[13:45:01.0000] <yecril71>
QuickView.

[13:45:02.0000] <Lachy>
yecril71, it would be nice to have some context for your comments

[13:46:00.0000] <yecril71>
> Every color browser I have ever heard of back to the dawn of the Web uses blue for links.

[13:46:01.0000] <Lachy>
link?

[13:47:00.0000] <Lachy>
or at least a subject line

[13:47:01.0000] <yecril71>
Re: [whatwg] [html5] Rendering of interactive content

[13:47:02.0000] <yecril71>
Admittedly, neither was a Web browser, of course.

[13:50:00.0000] <virtuelv>
windows help, while a hypertext system isn't HTML either

[13:50:01.0000] <virtuelv>
(isn't/wasn't, I don't know much about Microsoft after windows 2000, or thereabouts)

[13:51:00.0000] <yecril71>
It is blue now :-)

[13:51:01.0000] <Lachy>
virtuelv, the old windows help with green links wasn't. But they've since replaced it with HTML based help, now with blue links.

[13:52:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me envies virtuelv

[13:54:00.0000] <yecril71>
And AppleGuide had it blue too

[13:54:01.0000] <heycam>
/me remembers writing horrible RTF and compiling to .hlp files many moons ago...

[13:55:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me remembers not writing Windows help files, because he could never figure out how to do it or what tools he needed

[13:55:01.0000] <yecril71>
/me concurs to heycam

[13:56:00.0000] <virtuelv>
speaking of hypertext

[13:56:01.0000] <virtuelv>
I'm a bit curious why no one ever made a hypertext-based text adventure

[13:57:00.0000] <virtuelv>
zork-as-html

[13:57:01.0000] <svl>
virtuelv: I've seen several back in the late 90s

[13:58:00.0000] <svl>
http://www.bradthegame.com/

[13:58:01.0000] <svl>
(some nsfw text a couple of clicks in)

[13:59:00.0000] <virtuelv>
neat idea

[14:00:00.0000] <virtuelv>
I still enjoy typing blindly as well, though

[14:03:00.0000] <svl>
Also http://www.versificator.co.uk/hamlet/ and http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/2662/highmess.html

[14:05:00.0000] <svl>
(and undoubtedly hundreds of others, but those are examples of the main three ways of controlling a game; plus of course most classics like zork and h2g2 have been ported to javascript and java and flash and ... implementations)

[14:27:00.0000] <sicking>
Hixie, ping

[14:47:00.0000] <Hixie>
sicking: pong

[14:50:00.0000] <sicking>
Hixie, so, this whole feedback from DOM into parser thing

[14:50:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[14:50:02.0000] <sicking>
Hixie, what is the purpose of it? Why do we need to do different things depending on if there are children or not?

[14:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
it's residual style handling

[14:51:01.0000] <sicking>
Hixie, i tried to make some tests in the HTML5 livedom thing, but i couldn't figure out when having children made a difference

[14:51:02.0000] <sicking>
Hixie, do you have an example?

[14:51:03.0000] <Hixie>
let's see if i can construct one

[14:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
sicking: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/5

[15:00:00.0000] <Hixie>
i guess we could remove the check

[15:00:01.0000] <Hixie>
and just always clone

[15:00:02.0000] <sicking>
/me is still looking at example

[15:01:00.0000] <sicking>
Hixie, i need to look at that in henris HTML5 dom-live-viewer right?

[15:01:01.0000] <Hixie>
wait, hsivonen was asking for a flag for whether it had parser-inserted children

[15:01:02.0000] <Hixie>
sicking: or webkit

[15:02:00.0000] <Hixie>
sicking: the AAA in HTML5 is the same as webkit's residual style handling (so long as you only have one block)

[15:02:01.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: when would that algorithm ever _not_ have parser-inserted children?

[15:02:02.0000] <sicking>
Hixie, "the AAA"?

[15:02:03.0000] <Hixie>
Adoption Agency Algorithm. residual style in html5.

[15:02:04.0000] <sicking>
ah

[15:05:00.0000] <Hixie>
(from the spec: "Because of the way this algorithm causes elements to change parents, it has been dubbed the "adoption agency algorithm" (in contrast with other possibly algorithms for dealing with misnested content, which included the "incest algorithm", the "secret affair algorithm", and the "Heisenberg algorithm").")

[15:05:01.0000] <Hixie>
heisenberg's = mozilla, secret affair = opera, incest = ie

[15:05:02.0000] <sicking>
yeah, i know what the algorithm does

[15:05:03.0000] <sicking>
what still confuses me is when it makes a difference which of the two forks it uses

[15:06:00.0000] <sicking>
i.e. the has-children and don't-have-children forks

[15:06:01.0000] <Hixie>
i'm actually unsure as to when you can ever not have children without scripting

[15:06:02.0000] <Hixie>
and why we care about that case

[15:06:03.0000] <Hixie>
i'm thinking maybe we can remove the if statement altogether

[15:06:04.0000] <sicking>
that would be nice :)

[15:07:00.0000] <Hixie>
i hate this algorithm, i only barely understood it when i was writing it and implementing it

[15:07:01.0000] <sicking>
since i won't have to challange you to a fight of doom over the feedback

[15:07:02.0000] <Hixie>
hah

[15:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'm gonna remove the if statement and see if anyone complains.

[15:08:01.0000] <sicking>
haha

[15:08:02.0000] <sicking>
sold!

[15:08:03.0000] <sicking>
i'm still not sure how to detect a difference between the two forks

[15:09:00.0000] <sicking>
but i don't care as long as this thing goes :)

[15:09:01.0000] <Hixie>
oh, wait...

[15:09:02.0000] <Hixie>
/me studies further

[15:10:00.0000] <sicking>
Hixie, in your example, if i remove the script, the DOM still looks the same

[15:11:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah i was wrong

[15:11:01.0000] <Hixie>
here:

[15:11:02.0000] <Hixie>
it's the difference between:

[15:11:03.0000] <Hixie>
<!DOCTYPE html><i><em><div></i>xxxx

[15:11:04.0000] <Hixie>
<!DOCTYPE html><i><em>xxxx<div></i>xxxx

[15:11:05.0000] <Hixie>
in the former case, html5 just moves the original <em> down

[15:11:06.0000] <Hixie>
in the latter case, it clones it

[15:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
(the <div> doesn't count as being a child of the <em> because it's removed earlier in the algorithm)

[15:12:01.0000] <sicking>
so we're trying to avoid creating the extra <em>?

[15:12:02.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[15:13:00.0000] <sicking>
/me start to warm up the fight-of-doom arena

[15:13:01.0000] <Hixie>
it becomes a big deal when you have a lot of missing end tags (e.g. a lot of <font> with no </font>) iirc

[15:13:02.0000] <sicking>
right

[15:13:03.0000] <Hixie>
the problem with keeping track of whether the parser inserted any nodes into each node in the stack is that that's actually not enough

[15:13:04.0000] <Hixie>
you have to keep track of how many children

[15:13:05.0000] <sicking>
why is there always an 'i' outside the <div> though?

[15:14:00.0000] <Hixie>
(0 or 1 or 2)

[15:14:01.0000] <Hixie>
2+ rather

[15:14:02.0000] <Hixie>
the element being closed is always cloned because not doing so would make the algorithm orders of magnitude more complex still

[15:15:00.0000] <Hixie>
iirc

[15:15:01.0000] <sicking>
ok

[15:15:02.0000] <sicking>
that's probably why i failed to figure this out last time

[15:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah this is definitely one of the most obscure parts of the spec

[15:16:01.0000] <Hixie>
easily on par with xbl2 in terms of headaches

[15:16:02.0000] <sicking>
actually, that doesn't seem right either

[15:16:03.0000] <sicking>
<!DOCTYPE html><i><em><em><em><div></i>xxxx

[15:16:04.0000] <sicking>
that clones all but the inner most <em>

[15:16:05.0000] <sicking>
so if you have lots of opened <font>s, you'll still clone all but the last it looks like

[15:16:06.0000] <sicking>
unless henri has a bug

[15:19:00.0000] <sicking>
Hixie, and safari seems to clone them all

[15:19:01.0000] <sicking>
though maybe we're trying to do better than safari?

[15:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
hm, maybe it's not an optimisation

[15:22:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah maybe we should simplify this by not removing the furthest block node from its parent and then just not checking for children

[15:22:02.0000] <Hixie>
and always cloning

[15:23:00.0000] <sicking>
Hixie, my first question is what we're trying to accomplish with the check :)

[15:24:00.0000] <sicking>
Hixie, optimizting away empty element i suspect is actually worth it

[15:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah, but as you point out, we're not doing it enough

[15:24:02.0000] <Hixie>
if we want to do it we should do a proper job

[15:24:03.0000] <Hixie>
which is a whole other problem

[15:24:04.0000] <sicking>
yup

[15:24:05.0000] <sicking>
Hixie, i do know that we (=gecko) suffer, or at least used to suffer, on pages with lots of opened-but-not-closed <font>s

[15:25:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[15:25:01.0000] <sicking>
but we might never have considered it common enough to fix

[15:25:02.0000] <Hixie>
ok i've changed it to not do the check

[15:26:00.0000] <Hixie>
but i think we might want to make a more general fix at one point

[15:26:01.0000] <Hixie>
to get rid of the empty nodes

[15:26:02.0000] <sicking>
agreed

[15:27:00.0000] <sicking>
at which point i'll book the DOOM conference room so we can discuss how :)

[15:28:00.0000] <sicking>
Hixie, try "<!DOCTYPE html><i><font><font><font><font><div>w</div><div>f</div>" in gecko now

[15:28:01.0000] <sicking>
Hixie, we create loads of elements

[15:28:02.0000] <sicking>
Hixie, way more than HTML5 does

[15:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah, html5 doesn't move all the nodes to inside the blocks

[15:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
that isn't affected by the change just now afaict

[15:31:00.0000] <sicking>
funny thing is, if you just close one <font> after the last div, we dramatically change what we do

[15:31:01.0000] <sicking>
which is not what i would have guessed

[15:31:02.0000] <sicking>
right, html5 deals with this stuff dramatically different

[15:32:00.0000] <Hixie>
the biggest problem with gecko is that what it does differs based on packet boundaries

[15:33:00.0000] <sicking>
right

[15:33:01.0000] <sicking>
the lookahead is bad

[15:33:02.0000] <Dashiva>
"With namespaces, users pay while spec authors get off scott free for their inability to do the hard work of writing specs and forging agreement."

[15:33:03.0000] <sicking>
i'm not at all suggesting we do what gecko does

[15:34:00.0000] <sicking>
just saying that dealing with lots of unclosed <font>s might not be critically important to do

[15:34:01.0000] <sicking>
the packed boundry thing could be fixed in gecko, and still keep the lookahead

[15:35:00.0000] <Philip`>
Dashiva: But with distributed extensibility, *everyone* is a spec author

[15:35:01.0000] <sicking>
but we'd still produce much more bloated DOMs than the current spec

[15:36:00.0000] <sicking>
The only real advantage in what we do is that we can implement a real SAX API even for malformed documents

[15:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
sicking: yeah, the spec might be good enough at this point

[15:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
sicking: well, you still can't do a real SAX API for <table>s, right?

[15:38:01.0000] <Hixie>
or for <html> and <body> nodes

[15:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok bbiab

[15:41:00.0000] <sicking>
Hixie, ah, yeah, you're right

[15:45:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, re the :enabled and :disabled issue, are you now going to make them match hidden inputs based on the changes to Selectors?


2009-02-12
[16:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: i'll make them do whatever the new selectors spec says

[16:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
selectors is a decade old now

[16:37:01.0000] <Hixie>
a decade!

[16:37:02.0000] <Hixie>
and that's a 32 page spec

[16:37:03.0000] <Hixie>
it's about as big as the rendering section in html5

[16:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
and people think the timeline for html5 is unrealistic?

[16:38:01.0000] <Hixie>
sigh

[16:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk5: i actually haven't defined <marquee> yet. :-)

[16:49:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, I think some people have finally come to realise that the HTML5 timeline is realistic, given it's current size. I think that's one of the many reasons people want to split the spec into smaller specs.

[16:50:00.0000] <Lachy>
(although CSS3 has been split into separate specs and how many of those have reached rec in the past 10 years?)

[16:50:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Wasn't CSS kind of a trainwreck already?

[16:50:02.0000] <Lachy>
I think Selectors and CSS Namespaces are the closest to reaching REC

[16:50:03.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: those people don't seem to understand that it doesn't matter how big the spec is, it doesn't make it go any faster if it's smaller

[16:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: (given the interactions between sections)

[16:51:01.0000] <Lachy>
indeed

[17:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: yt?

[18:02:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Say, did anything in particular happen that made you stop twittering, Hixie?

[18:03:00.0000] <Hixie>
i stopped twittering?

[18:03:01.0000] <Dashiva>
There was almost no traffic most of the fall and winter

[18:03:02.0000] <Hixie>
i twittered 15 times in the last 24 hours

[18:04:00.0000] <Hixie>
what more do you want from me!

[18:04:01.0000] <Hixie>
:-P

[18:04:02.0000] <Dashiva>
Maybe I'm looking at the wrong account then!

[18:04:03.0000] <Hixie>
32 times if you count the retweets that mike puts out

[18:04:04.0000] <Hixie>
http://twitter.com/WHATWG

[18:05:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Right

[18:05:01.0000] <Hixie>
and http://twitter.com/HTML5

[18:05:02.0000] <Hixie>
the latter also includes editorial checkins

[18:05:03.0000] <Dashiva>
Never mind me then

[18:05:04.0000] <Hixie>
on my Hixie account I don't do much because, well, twitter is dumb :-P

[18:06:00.0000] <doodlewarrior>
i'm just starting to peek at the canvas element

[18:06:01.0000] <Hixie>
it makes sense as a short message broadcast service

[18:06:02.0000] <Hixie>
but microblogging is just stupid imho

[18:06:03.0000] <Dashiva>
I guess the clickjacking comment made me think you had all the techie stuff on Hixie

[18:06:04.0000] <doodlewarrior>
i've heard a lot of people talk about it for charting, but i'm not sure i understand why you'd use it

[18:06:05.0000] <Hixie>
though i'd use it a lot if someone did the equivalent of bitlbee for twitter

[18:06:06.0000] <Hixie>
doodlewarrior: http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html is an example of <canvas> use for a chart

[18:06:07.0000] <doodlewarrior>
wouldn't you use positioned divs

[18:06:08.0000] <doodlewarrior>
thanks ill look

[18:07:00.0000] <Philip`>
doodlewarrior: Mostly people seem to use it for charts because they're too lazy to write a server-side script that generates an image

[18:07:01.0000] <Hixie>
right

[18:07:02.0000] <Hixie>
it grabs the data using XHR and then uses JS to generate the image

[18:07:03.0000] <doodlewarrior>
thanks guys

[18:07:04.0000] <Hixie>
Dashiva: i use Hixie for replying to other people

[18:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
Dashiva: (and for sending SMSes to my partner, since i don't have a phone and they do)

[18:08:01.0000] <doodlewarrior>
it's amusing to me that theres an HTML element that is literally defined as 'width, height, id' and relies on javascript for everything else

[18:08:02.0000] <Hixie>
doodlewarrior: there's several of those in html5

[18:08:03.0000] <Hixie>
doodlewarrior: <eventsource>, <video>, <audio> also

[18:09:00.0000] <doodlewarrior>
the media ones have a src though

[18:09:01.0000] <Hixie>
<script> too :-)

[18:09:02.0000] <doodlewarrior>
thyre just like image

[18:09:03.0000] <Hixie>
true

[18:09:04.0000] <Hixie>
true, you can make them show controls

[18:09:05.0000] <Hixie>
<eventsource> is js-only though

[18:09:06.0000] <Hixie>
basically

[18:09:07.0000] <Dashiva>
I seem to recall a request for using an image to "seed" a canvas

[18:09:08.0000] <doodlewarrior>
i havent heard of eventsource

[18:09:09.0000] <doodlewarrior>
ill look into it

[18:10:00.0000] <doodlewarrior>
btw, that issues graph is a better canvas sample than the ones ive seen so far

[18:10:01.0000] <Dashiva>
But if you're going to have to use js anyway, there's little point

[18:10:02.0000] <doodlewarrior>
most of those have been bar charts

[18:10:03.0000] <Philip`>
doodlewarrior: Have you seen http://www.liquidx.net/plotkit/ ?

[18:10:04.0000] <Hixie>
doodlewarrior: it's not a canvas sample, i actually use it to track feedback :-)

[18:10:05.0000] <Hixie>
doodlewarrior: it just happens to use canvas :-)

[18:11:00.0000] <Philip`>
doodlewarrior: (Examples at http://media.liquidx.net/js/plotkit-tests/sweet.html etc)

[18:12:00.0000] <doodlewarrior>
i had been looking at flotr, which is based on plotkit

[18:13:00.0000] <doodlewarrior>
maybe for pie or line graphs

[18:13:01.0000] <doodlewarrior>
but for bar charts, which is what a lot of analytics turns into, CSS seems to be a better way to go

[18:14:00.0000] <Hixie>
well don't forget that CSS shouldn't be used for content

[18:14:01.0000] <Hixie>
your page shouldn't change meaning if you turn off the CSS

[18:14:02.0000] <Philip`>
That seems a pretty pointless argument in practice

[18:14:03.0000] <Hixie>
(similarly, if you use <canvas>, you should also expose the content inside the element for users that don't see images)

[18:14:04.0000] <Philip`>
If you're in an environment where you can't see CSS, you almost certainly won't be able to see canvas either

[18:15:00.0000] <doodlewarrior>
Philip`s right

[18:15:01.0000] <Hixie>
the actual correct way of doing bar charts in HTML5 is <meter>

[18:15:02.0000] <Hixie>
but that's not supported anywhere yet

[18:15:03.0000] <doodlewarrior>
in that case, it should all be does as images

[18:15:04.0000] <doodlewarrior>
because both CSS and JS are not *guaranteed*

[18:15:05.0000] <doodlewarrior>
although in practice theyre pretty ubiq

[18:15:06.0000] <Philip`>
Images aren't guaranteed either

[18:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
JS is more guaranteed than CSS or images

[18:16:01.0000] <Hixie>
(JS is not optional, unlike CSS or images)

[18:16:02.0000] <Philip`>
I think you should use a Java applet

[18:16:03.0000] <doodlewarrior>
im a flash guy.  id do that, but mobiles dont support it

[18:16:04.0000] <doodlewarrior>
and id choose flash over java any day of the week

[18:17:00.0000] <Philip`>
Write an applet that displays a bar, and then include it lots of times with <applet width="..."> for each bar

[18:17:01.0000] <doodlewarrior>
the only browser ive seen where JS is not optional is chrome

[18:17:02.0000] <doodlewarrior>
hahahaha

[18:17:03.0000] <doodlewarrior>
nice

[18:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
doodlewarrior: by "optional" i mean "the specs say that you can turn that off without changing the meaning of the page"

[18:18:01.0000] <Hixie>
turning script off will change the meaning of the page

[18:19:00.0000] <doodlewarrior>
you can turn off images without changing the meaning?

[18:19:01.0000] <doodlewarrior>
deviantart is boned

[18:19:02.0000] <doodlewarrior>
flickr, facebook, et al

[18:19:03.0000] <doodlewarrior>
youtube

[18:19:04.0000] <doodlewarrior>
:-p

[18:19:05.0000] <Philip`>
That depends on the meaning of "meaning"

[18:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
if those sites don't include the equivalent of the image in the alt="" attribute, they're non-conforming :-)

[18:20:01.0000] <doodlewarrior>
there are definitely things that break without javascript

[18:20:02.0000] <doodlewarrior>
the app that has me thinking of all this is one of them

[18:21:00.0000] <doodlewarrior>
but i would still argue that images are more crucial than javascript

[18:21:01.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: Non-conforming HTML pages? That would be unthinkable :-(

[18:21:02.0000] <Hixie>
hah

[18:21:03.0000] <doodlewarrior>
(and probably more likely to be supported)

[18:21:04.0000] <Hixie>
doodlewarrior: a blind user will have JS support but the images won't do him any good

[18:22:00.0000] <doodlewarrior>
i didnt know text-based clients supported javascript

[18:23:00.0000] <Philip`>
doodlewarrior: They tend to use a proper graphical browser plus a screenreader, rather than a text browser, apparently

[18:24:00.0000] <doodlewarrior>
my mac would do that when i was a kid

[18:24:01.0000] <doodlewarrior>
mouse over something and it would tell you what it is

[18:25:00.0000] <Philip`>
Aiming the mouse at objects is kind of hard when you can't see the cursor or the objects

[18:27:00.0000] <doodlewarrior>
i would think so

[18:28:00.0000] <doodlewarrior>
i imagine it would be easier to surf with firefox + reader than lynx

[18:28:01.0000] <doodlewarrior>
if for no other reason than all the sites that sniff by browser

[18:29:00.0000] <doodlewarrior>
Hixie: this is what i'll end up modeling

[18:29:01.0000] <doodlewarrior>
http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/wp-content/img200805/stack_bar_graded.png

[18:29:02.0000] <doodlewarrior>
i'm not sure if meter would be right for that

[18:29:03.0000] <Hixie>
no, <meter> wouldn't really work for a stacked bar

[18:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
<meter> is just for a single-value gauge

[18:30:01.0000] <doodlewarrior>
YEAH

[18:30:02.0000] <doodlewarrior>
bad caps

[18:31:00.0000] <doodlewarrior>
ill probably end up using HTML + CSS

[18:32:00.0000] <doodlewarrior>
it's easier to template server-side

[18:32:01.0000] <doodlewarrior>
and you don't need to worry about rendering the JS

[18:32:02.0000] <Philip`>
Text in <canvas> is not well supported in current browsers, so it'd probably be easier to just use HTML/CSS

[18:33:00.0000] <doodlewarrior>
thanks guys

[18:33:01.0000] <Dashiva>
/me remembers making bitmap fonts for canvas text

[18:33:02.0000] <Dashiva>
Bad times

[18:34:00.0000] <doodlewarrior>
i must admit, im not much for IRC

[18:34:01.0000] <doodlewarrior>
what's the syntax to do a third person message

[18:34:02.0000] <Philip`>
/me ...

[18:35:00.0000] <doodlewarrior>
/me is testing this

[18:35:01.0000] <doodlewarrior>
/me is wondering how Philip` escaped the /me

[18:35:02.0000] <doodlewarrior>
 /me like this?

[18:36:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Many ways, depending on the client

[18:36:01.0000] <doodlewarrior>
anyway, ill stop wasting all your time now

[18:36:02.0000] <Dashiva>
e.g. mIRC supports ctrl-enter to avoid commands

[18:36:03.0000] <doodlewarrior>
im in opera

[18:37:00.0000] <Philip`>
/ /me ... escapes it in irssi

[18:37:01.0000] <doodlewarrior>
i dont really want to install a chat client

[18:37:02.0000] <doodlewarrior>
although for all practical purposes all opera is to me IS a chat client

[18:37:03.0000] <doodlewarrior>
although it was my main browser before safari was cross-platform

[18:37:04.0000] <doodlewarrior>
although i say although a lot

[18:37:05.0000] <Dashiva>
When all else fails, /msg #channelname /me text should work

[18:38:00.0000] <doodlewarrior>
gtk

[18:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
wow have you guys seen this? http://a.deveria.com/caniuse/

[18:50:00.0000] <Dashiva>
It's a bit depressing to see features blocking on browser versions that aren't even the next release...

[18:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
you can uncheck the "Past" row

[18:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
:-)

[18:51:02.0000] <Hixie>
bbiab

[18:53:00.0000] <deltab>
/say usually works too

[19:01:00.0000] <Lachy>
/me is unsure whether he should be happy or sad that <form autocomplete> has now been added to the spec as a result of my data, despite the fact that I think it should never be used by anyone.

[19:02:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Honor and valor

[19:03:00.0000] <Dashiva>
It would probably have been added eventually, in any case.

[19:28:00.0000] <roc>
Hixie: that's cool

[19:28:01.0000] <roc>
someone should tell them that multiple backgrounds is about to land for Firefox

[19:28:02.0000] <roc>
3.2 though

[19:31:00.0000] <roc>
I sort of hate how people assume that Webkit CSS extensions are the future

[19:31:01.0000] <roc>
what about MY CSS extensions

[19:32:00.0000] <roc>
hmm, IE8 doesn't support HTML data URLs? FAIL

[19:34:00.0000] <roc>
Ah, I just want to uncheck "Unofficial" and then I'm happy

[19:35:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I wouldn't mind a "hide stuff that isn't ready" checkbox, just to see what little is actually usable

[19:38:00.0000] <olliej>
roc: really?

[19:38:01.0000] <roc>
which part?

[19:38:02.0000] <olliej>
roc: ie8 w/no data uri support

[19:38:03.0000] <roc>
that page says it supports data URIs for image and stylesheet loads, but not HTML loads

[19:38:04.0000] <roc>
or something like that

[19:39:00.0000] <olliej>
roc: url?

[19:39:01.0000] <roc>
of course IE also has a ridiculously low URI length limit which cripples data URIs anyway

[19:39:02.0000] <olliej>
true

[19:39:03.0000] <roc>
it does give the impression they might have done the minimum needed to pass Acid2

[19:39:04.0000] <olliej>
roc: it's just a thousand or so character or something iirc

[19:40:00.0000] <roc>
yeah

[19:40:01.0000] <roc>
olliej: http://a.deveria.com/caniuse/

[19:40:02.0000] <roc>
(via Hixie in this channel)

[19:40:03.0000] <olliej>
roc: at least it's better than the minimum needed to pass some of the acid3 svg tests -- you just needed the element constructors to exist

[19:40:04.0000] <roc>
yeah well

[19:40:05.0000] <olliej>
roc: they didn't actually need to work

[19:40:06.0000] <olliej>
i was like wtf?

[19:41:00.0000] <roc>
let's not discuss the deficiencies of Acid3 :-)

[19:41:01.0000] <olliej>
roc: wow, i love the idea that Chrome 0.3 is the old chrome, but safari 2 is the old safari

[19:41:02.0000] <roc>
yeah

[19:41:03.0000] <olliej>
ignoring safari 3.0, and 3.1

[19:42:00.0000] <roc>
I also love the idea that IE9 and Firefox 3.2 will be contemporaneous

[19:43:00.0000] <olliej>
heh

[19:44:00.0000] <olliej>
roc: what makes the chrome 0.3 vs. Safari2 comparison especially hilarious is that chrome's initial release was based on Safari 3.1

[19:44:01.0000] <olliej>
wee!

[19:44:02.0000] <roc>
yeah I know

[19:45:00.0000] <roc>
it's iniquitous

[19:46:00.0000] <olliej>
oh well

[19:46:01.0000] <olliej>
shit happens

[19:46:02.0000] <olliej>
hihi eric_carlson 

[19:46:03.0000] <olliej>
or eric_carlson_ as the case may be

[19:46:04.0000] <eric_carlson_>
hey olliej

[20:40:00.0000] <zcorpan>
morning

[21:40:00.0000] <zcorpan>
http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-February/018492.html - what should dom core say?

[21:42:00.0000] <zcorpan>
right now i have

[21:42:01.0000] <zcorpan>
A DOMTimeStamp represents a number of milliseconds. 

[21:42:02.0000] <zcorpan>
typedef unsigned long long DOMTimeStamp;

[21:43:00.0000] <heycam>
zcorpan, i think that is ok

[21:43:01.0000] <zcorpan>
heycam: ok, thanks

[21:44:00.0000] <heycam>
the difference in precision between unsigned long longs (which range from 0..2**64-1) and ES Numbers (which can represent integers up to 2**53 - 1) isn't important, iirc.

[21:44:01.0000] <heycam>
at least for practical uses of time stamps

[21:44:02.0000] <zcorpan>
hmm maybe the definition should say "...since Unix epoch"

[21:45:00.0000] <heycam>
yeah.  i think dom core says something like not specifying a particular epoch, or that time stamps might always be 0 or something.

[21:45:01.0000] <heycam>
can't remember exactly

[21:46:00.0000] <zcorpan>
"The DOMTimeStamp type is used to store an absolute or relative time."

[21:46:01.0000] <zcorpan>
when is it used for a relative time?

[21:46:02.0000] <heycam>
don't know of any place in the dom off the top of my head

[21:47:00.0000] <zcorpan>
dom3 core says "For ECMAScript, DOMTimeStamp is bound to the Date type because the range of the integer type is too small."

[21:47:01.0000] <zcorpan>
/me would like to refer to webidl for ecmascript bindings of dom core :)

[21:48:00.0000] <heycam>
please feel free :)

[21:49:00.0000] <zcorpan>
maybe i should put a note in there saying that it's not a Date in ecmascript

[21:49:01.0000] <heycam>
Dates in ES, iirc, use a Number (i.e. a double) internally

[21:49:02.0000] <heycam>
so i think the reasoning is bogus

[21:51:00.0000] <zcorpan>
oh <time> in html5 has relative domtimestamps

[22:04:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: couldn't html5lib prefix mathml elements with an "M" and svg elements with an "S" in the no-namespace mode, or something?

[22:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
sure

[22:11:00.0000] <Hixie>
does it?

[22:16:00.0000] <heycam>
hmm "layed out" or "laid out"?

[22:16:01.0000] <heycam>
or "layoutted"? :)

[22:16:02.0000] <Hixie>
laid

[22:16:03.0000] <heycam>
surprisingly, google searches for both those terms bring up appropriately the same number of hits

[22:16:04.0000] <heycam>
ok

[22:17:00.0000] <Hixie>
except all the hits for "layed" are "is it laid or layed"

[22:17:01.0000] <heycam>
heh

[22:45:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Philip`: in XOM, try two attributes with the same namespace and local name but different prefix

[22:45:01.0000] <zcorpan>
or maybe XOM doesn't let you manage prefixes?

[22:56:00.0000] <hsivonen>
sicking: pong

[22:58:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: is <?foo ??> well-formed? If it inserts a space unnecessarily, it is probably a bug in the code that tries to avoid the ?> substring

[22:58:01.0000] <Hixie>
sicking: so do you think mozilla wants the spellcheck="" attribute in html5?

[22:58:02.0000] <Hixie>
anyone from opera have any opinions on that, also?

[22:58:03.0000] <Hixie>
ap: how about webkit, do you know if anyone outside google wants spellcheck="" in html5?

[22:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
i figure i'll add it, more or less as specced here http://damowmow.com/playground/spellcheck.txt

[22:59:01.0000] <Hixie>
since there seems to be vague positive notions about it

[23:00:00.0000] <Hixie>
(and it's used by major sites and firefox and chrome both have some level of support)

[23:00:01.0000] <Hixie>
(though that's all mostly from google)

[23:01:00.0000] <ap>
Hixie: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14552 is not from Google afaict

[23:01:01.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: <?foo ??> seems to be well-formed

[23:02:00.0000] <Hixie>
ap: woo, non-google interest

[23:02:01.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: but <?xml-stylesheet ??> isn't xml+xml-stylesheet-well-formed (if there is such a concept)

[23:06:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: ok. 

[23:08:00.0000] <zcorpan>
speaking of xml-stylesheet, we had a telecon yesterday

[23:09:00.0000] <zcorpan>
there was push-back in general but they seemed to agree that error handling needed to be defined

[23:13:00.0000] <zcorpan>
surprising to me was that the xml core wg were apparently unfamiliar with the term "yellow screen of death"

[23:17:00.0000] <hsivonen>
whoa. pretty removed from Web use cases, eh?

[23:18:00.0000] <zcorpan>
i guess

[23:24:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: I think I've now fixed the serializer bugs you found (in svn only so far)

[23:24:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: thanks

[23:39:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: why is <x xmlns="x:&" /> not well-formed?

[23:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: unescaped ampersand is not valid in AttValue

[23:52:01.0000] <hsivonen>
ooh

[23:53:00.0000] <hsivonen>
so obvious now...

[23:53:01.0000] <hsivonen>
the thread with Adam Barth & others on www-talk is interesting

[00:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
site-meta scares me

[00:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
i don't really understand the problem it's trying to solve

[00:35:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: what kind of parser-level quirks are expected? Is the fragment parsing algorithm meant to be quirk-sensitive?

[00:36:00.0000] <hsivonen>
<p><table>, I expect

[00:36:01.0000] <hsivonen>
(and that's Acid2's fault)

[00:36:02.0000] <Hixie>
hm?

[00:38:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: i think no parser-level quirks are expected (we can maybe get away with doing <p><table> the same in quirks mode)

[00:38:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: are more quirks expected than those that have XXX quirks comments? and is the fragment parsing algorithm supposed to honor the quirkiness of the document of the context node?

[00:38:02.0000] <Hixie>
no idea

[00:39:00.0000] <hsivonen>
ok. I'll file a bug

[00:44:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: does Opera have any parser-level quirks left?

[00:45:00.0000] <hsivonen>
fwiw, source code suggests that Gecko inherits quirkiness on innerHTML

[00:47:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: yes (e.g. <p><table>)

[00:47:01.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: ok, so there's no shipping precedent to ironing out the differences

[00:48:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hey i thought webkit did the <p><table> the same in quirks mode

[00:48:01.0000] <hsivonen>
oh

[00:49:00.0000] <zcorpan>
wonder why they changed it

[00:56:00.0000] <hsivonen>
what was the magic click that reveals sections linking to a heading in the WHATWG HTML5 spec?

[00:56:01.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, Opera wants spellcheck="" btw

[00:56:02.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, I thought I mentioned that somewhere on the list

[00:57:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: is there a reason why innerHTML & friends are on HTMLElement instead of Element?

[00:57:01.0000] <hsivonen>
my recollection is that in WebKit and Opera innerHTML works more generally

[00:57:02.0000] <Hixie>
annevk5: cool

[00:58:00.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: because i don't define Element :-)

[00:58:01.0000] <zcorpan>
/me finds https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9280

[00:58:02.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, but you could define ElementHTML

[00:58:03.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, for instance

[00:58:04.0000] <Hixie>
i could

[01:00:00.0000] <hsivonen>
it seems silly that the functionality is not available on SVG nodes (in specs & in Gecko)

[01:11:00.0000] <Hixie>
innerHTML is a terrible API

[01:11:01.0000] <Hixie>
it's the equivalent of eval

[01:11:02.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: I'm here now

[01:11:03.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, but it does the job

[01:11:04.0000] <Hixie>
so does eval

[01:12:00.0000] <hsivonen>
eval is lispish, so it has to be brilliant

[01:15:00.0000] <annevk5>
given that non-HTML elements are marginal in use anyway and there's no other API available I do not really see the harm in making it consistently available

[01:17:00.0000] <Hixie>
the harm is in making it available at all

[01:19:00.0000] <Hixie>
does anyone know if there's any way to force another computer on the network to flush its dns cache?

[01:21:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: when the cat is totally out of the bag if you use innerHTML on a div wrapping svg, what's the harm of allowing it directly on the svg stuff?

[01:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
innerHTML is bad. when you have something that is bad, you don't make it available _more_

[01:22:01.0000] <zcorpan>
badness is just an opinion :)

[01:22:02.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, you made it available to XML

[01:23:00.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, I'm not really convinced

[01:23:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: innerHTML is useful for debugging :-) 

[01:23:02.0000] <Hixie>
annevk5: putting it on XML is necessary to allow easier migration to XML

[01:23:03.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: a readonly attribute innerHTML would be fine

[01:23:04.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: wouldn't easy migration require running the HTML parser on setting?

[01:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
presumably one would fix all the syntax at the same time

[01:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
i can't imagine what kind of a mess one would have that would make it easier to only upgrade some of the syntax

[01:24:02.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, it seems that if we want HTML+MathML+SVG to look lik a single platform innerHTML should be everywhere

[01:25:00.0000] <zcorpan>
opera uses the html parser on setting and we have bugs about it, iirc

[01:25:01.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, also, if innerHTML is bad in the first place, why would you ever want to allow it to migrate to XML

[01:25:02.0000] <Hixie>
innerHTML is fundamentally bad in the same way eval is bad -- it doesn't get you any compile-time syntax checking, and it encourages poor escaping hygene

[01:25:03.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, especially since you increase implementation complexity as it does not do the same thing there!

[01:25:04.0000] <hsivonen>
I agree on escaping hygiene, but compile-time checking is overrated

[01:26:00.0000] <zcorpan>
annevk5: didn't opera and gecko predate html5 on this matter, though?

[01:26:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Python has collection literals, Java doesn't. Many Java devs use XML as complex literals...

[01:26:02.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: for this kind of thing, i think it's underrated

[01:26:03.0000] <hsivonen>
people like having literals

[01:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
anyway

[01:27:01.0000] <Hixie>
if you want innerHTML on SVG, get zcorpan to do it in Web DOM Core

[01:27:02.0000] <Hixie>
I have no interest in sticking my neck out on that front

[01:27:03.0000] <Hixie>
it's one thing to piss off the svg wg, but pissing them off when i disagree that it's a good idea is quite another :-P

[01:27:04.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: what's the difference from saying that all documents must implement HTMLDocument?

[01:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: HTMLDocument doesn't encourage poor escaping hygene and suffer from lack of compile-time syntax checking of complex strings?

[01:28:01.0000] <annevk5>
zcorpan, Opera's implementation actually didn't increase complexity, but yeah, then again, we could remove it

[01:29:00.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, HTMLDocument has innerHTML

[01:29:01.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: i meant having an ElementHTML interface that includes useful stuff that's only available on html elements

[01:30:00.0000] <zcorpan>
i'd be fine with putting stuff in dom core if that's appropriate

[01:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
annevk5: innerHTML on a Document is a whole different issue -- it's a replacement for DOM3 Load and Save, to convert a self-contained, typically server-provided, raw document string, into a Document

[01:30:02.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: i don't follow. I thought the problem was that people wanted things on nodes _other_ than HTML elements.

[01:31:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: yes -- then you say that all Elements must also implement ElementHTML

[01:31:01.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: ...but I don't _want_ non-HTML elements to support these things

[01:32:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: what about getElementsByClassName?

[01:32:01.0000] <Hixie>
what about it?

[01:33:00.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, poor hugene and no compile-time syntax checking of complex strings though

[01:33:01.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: it's on HTMLElement but would be similarly useful on svg elements

[01:33:02.0000] <annevk5>
classList too

[01:33:03.0000] <Hixie>
annevk5: you wouldn't do (in the use case for Document.innerHTML) any string merging, so there's no escape hygene issue. And compile-time checking makes no sense for something you don't have access to until runtime.

[01:34:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: if there are things we should hoist to Web DOM Core Element, I'm fine with that too.

[01:36:00.0000] <annevk5>
/me finds another interesting i18n example

[01:37:00.0000] <annevk5>
there's an armenian list style in CSS but apparently such a thing is never used; they use arabic or roman numbers for lists in practice

[01:37:01.0000] <Hixie>
there's like 93 different list styles in css3 lists

[01:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
many of them are only of historic interest

[01:38:01.0000] <Hixie>
they're mostly for use with counters rather than lists

[01:38:02.0000] <annevk5>
why add bunch of codes to browsers for historic interest?

[01:38:03.0000] <annevk5>
s/codes/code/

[01:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
it's very little code in most cases, just a table typically

[01:39:01.0000] <Philip`>
zcorpan: When adding those two attributes, the second one overrides the first one, so you only get one attribute in the output

[01:39:02.0000] <Philip`>
zcorpan: (XOM does let you manage prefixes, but it does comparisons based on URI+localname and the prefixes are more like hints for serialisation)

[01:40:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: <?foo ??> is well-formed as far as I'm aware; I guess the code that adds the space was copied-and-pasted from the code that avoids <!-- --->

[01:41:00.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, same question s/code/tables/

[01:41:01.0000] <Hixie>
tables are cheap

[01:42:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: indeed, it looked copied and pasted, so I zapped it

[01:42:01.0000] <annevk5>
that's hardly a justification :)

[01:43:00.0000] <annevk5>
especically since it's a bit more than tables for some and testing all that stuff is quite a bit of effort

[01:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
list styles are pretty easy to test

[01:43:02.0000] <Hixie>
you just implement the algorithm and output bazillions of automated tests automatically

[01:43:03.0000] <jgraham>
Unless you implement the algorithm wrong

[01:44:00.0000] <jgraham>
In which case you output bazillions of misleading tests automatically :)

[01:44:01.0000] <Hixie>
well then you catch the bug when the "real" implementor tries it

[01:44:02.0000] <Hixie>
writing wrong tests is always a risk

[01:44:03.0000] <Hixie>
for lists it's far easier to get them right than, say, margin collapsing

[01:45:00.0000] <Hixie>
anyway, list styles, even those with only small markets, can be useful

[01:45:01.0000] <Hixie>
why would we not want to be comprehensive?

[01:45:02.0000] <Hixie>
since they're cheap and easy to test, it seems like a rare case where we can afford to be

[01:47:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: I don't think there's a magic click, you just use the single-page spec and then click the term's definition

[01:47:01.0000] <hsivonen>
aah. single-page!

[01:53:00.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: Speaking of broken tests, you do realise that for every change you make to the AAA, a tiny kitten dies, right?

[01:53:01.0000] <Hixie>
blame hsivonen 

[01:54:00.0000] <Hixie>
(and sicking)

[01:54:01.0000] <jgraham>
That doesn't help the poor little kitten now does it? :)

[01:54:02.0000] <jgraham>
Anyway, I can't really blame hsivonen because I'm counting on him to fix the html5lib test suite before I get around to implementing the change

[02:04:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: shout when you're around.

[02:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
i love that the TR/html5 doc is already out of date before even getting published

[02:46:00.0000] <annevk5>
you should love the point where that stops being the case :)

[02:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk5: i don't expect it'll be the case before october :-)

[02:53:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders how Rob Burns can possibly claim that the XML spec says "&#xd800;&#xdc00;" is well-formed

[02:53:01.0000] <Philip`>
(on www-tag)

[02:54:00.0000] <annevk5>
Rob Burns also claims that by virtue of referencing Unicode XML requires canonical character comparison rather than codepoint comparison

[02:54:01.0000] <annevk5>
It's really quite interesting :)

[02:56:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Philip`: maybe... it says character reference*s* must match Char, so after expanding the two references and serializing the result as utf-16 and parsing it again it would match Char?

[02:56:01.0000] <Philip`>
zcorpan: You can't serialise U+D800 to UTF-16

[02:57:00.0000] <zcorpan>
bummer :(

[02:57:01.0000] <Philip`>
So I guess you have to expand the two references, serialise as UCS-2, then reinterpret it as UTF-16 when parsing, and then it would match Char

[02:57:02.0000] <Philip`>
though that would break whenever you use >= U+10000 in your document

[02:59:00.0000] <zcorpan>
you'd only do it for character references that expand to the surrogate range?

[02:59:01.0000] <Philip`>
"If the character reference begins with " &#x ", the digits and letters up to the terminating ; provide a hexadecimal representation of the character's code point in ISO/IEC 10646."

[03:00:00.0000] <Philip`>
so he can't claim that &#xd800;&#xdc00; should be parsed into a single codepoint

[03:00:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: sure he *can* and just did :-(

[03:00:02.0000] <heycam>
right, and there's no such character as U+D800

[03:01:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: Hmm, I didn't see him claim that (yet)

[03:01:01.0000] <yecril71>
krijnhoetmer is down again

[03:01:02.0000] <Philip`>
yecril71: Works for me

[03:01:03.0000] <heycam>
/me always pronounces "krijnhoetmer" as "chronometer" in his mind

[03:02:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: ok. perhaps he didn't claim exactly that, but he claims a lot of things

[03:02:01.0000] <annevk5>
yecril71, if krijnh is actually in the channel it's unlikely to be down

[03:02:02.0000] <yecril71>
Take it back, I expected Goto to refresh in IE.

[03:03:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me takes it back

[03:03:01.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: If he did claim that then at least he'd be more internally consistent, even if it made him more wrong :-)

[03:03:02.0000] <hsivonen>
/me thinks the issue timeless pointed out is a bug in cell phone carriers in Canada

[03:04:00.0000] <yecril71>
If the user�s language does not match the site�s, how on earth can the user actually use the site?

[03:05:00.0000] <annevk5>
yecril71, because the user is e.g. Dutch but can read English?

[03:05:01.0000] <yecril71>
For the life of me, I cannot figure out anything on Chinese sites.

[03:05:02.0000] <jgraham>
yecril71: Google translate or e.g. having some but not good comprehension of the language

[03:05:03.0000] <jgraham>
/me has to use Swedish sites occasionally

[03:05:04.0000] <yecril71>
Does Google translate allow you to submit forms?

[03:05:05.0000] <annevk5>
/me can quite easily use oslokino.no

[03:06:00.0000] <annevk5>
without speaking Norwegian

[03:06:01.0000] <hsivonen>
yecril71: I tend to use Google Translate in another tab when I need to submit forms e.g. in German

[03:06:02.0000] <annevk5>
s/spreaking/knowing/

[03:06:03.0000] <zcorpan>
yecril71: gmail.com might be in english but you want to write a mail in a different language

[03:07:00.0000] <yecril71>
Annevk5!  How do you use oslokino.no?

[03:09:00.0000] <yecril71>
It seems like a film review site, the reviews are in Norwegian.

[03:09:01.0000] <Lachy>
JohnResig, yt?

[03:10:00.0000] <annevk5>
among other things it lists which movies run in theaters in Oslo, which is useful when I'm there

[03:10:01.0000] <hsivonen>
yecril71: it seems the main use case for the site is buying tickets

[03:10:02.0000] <yecril71>
Even if I want to write a mail in a different language, my language and the GMail�s language are still the same.

[03:11:00.0000] <yecril71>
It is the recipient�s language that is different.

[03:11:01.0000] <yecril71>
Do you also translate your feedback into German with Google first?

[03:12:00.0000] <yecril71>
In my ideal world, everyone would use the language she knows best,

[03:13:00.0000] <yecril71>
and the recipient�s software would have the task to translate it.

[03:13:01.0000] <hsivonen>
yecril71: does "use" mean write, read, or both?

[03:13:02.0000] <yecril71>
In this case, write, mostly.

[03:14:00.0000] <yecril71>
Passages for reading do not need spell checking.

[03:14:01.0000] <yecril71>
But you have to be able to read in order to know what to write (and where).

[03:15:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I wouldn't hold my breath with that vision. Even with human translators, after some threshold of reading proficiency in a foreign language, people are better off reading original text instead of translations

[03:15:01.0000] <yecril71>
The translation would only be a prothesis, the original text being available as well.

[03:17:00.0000] <yecril71>
I am unhappy about breaking the link between @lang and spell checking.

[03:17:01.0000] <hsivonen>
/me wonders how the IETF mechanism of getting security review works compared to getting Adam Barth to read a draft

[03:18:00.0000] <yecril71>
Hopefully, the browsers can still do it, regardless that Hixie decided to ignore it.

[03:19:00.0000] <Hixie>
did you read what the spec says on the subject?

[03:21:00.0000] <yecril71>
The spec says that spellcheck is used to turn spell checking on for text input controls.

[03:21:01.0000] <Hixie>
i urge you to read the entire section :-)

[03:21:02.0000] <krijnh>
I'm down?

[03:22:00.0000] <krijnh>
yecril71: No, I'm not :)

[03:22:01.0000] <yecril71>
No, I am dumb :-(

[03:22:02.0000] <yecril71>
Or rather MSIE is.

[03:23:00.0000] <krijnh>
(heycam: it's more like "cryin' hoodmer", but who cares :)

[03:23:01.0000] <yecril71>
Why does MSIE want to load Microsoft HTML Viewer to display the spec?

[03:24:00.0000] <annevk5>
why do people use MSIE?

[03:25:00.0000] <yecril71>
Because their employers want them to use Microsoft Windows, I presume.

[03:25:01.0000] <yecril71>
Because it is the best choice for incompetent losers.

[03:26:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me notes that other web browsers work on Microsoft Windows too

[03:26:01.0000] <yecril71>
/me notes that that doubles the maintenance cost

[03:27:00.0000] <krijnh>
Because of shitty IE-only intranet apps and sysadmins not doing their jobs

[03:28:00.0000] <yecril71>
OK, I disabled CSS so perhaps I shall be able to read it now

[03:32:00.0000] <yecril71>
Except that disabling CSS is not permanent, and I have to wait for ages until I will be able to disable it again :-(

[03:39:00.0000] <yecril71>
I am sorry, I am unable to find spellcheck in the contents.

[03:39:01.0000] <yecril71>
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/index.html#contents

[03:39:02.0000] <yecril71>
Find "spellcheck".

[03:42:00.0000] <robburns>
Philip` with your quote, I see how you're reading XML 1 now.

[03:42:01.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: "If the character reference begins with " &#x ", the digits and letters up to the terminating ; provide a hexadecimal representation of the character's code point in ISO/IEC 10646."

[03:43:00.0000] <yecril71>
The attribute values should be 

[03:43:01.0000] <yecril71>
spellcheck="on/off", not "true/false"

[03:44:00.0000] <robburns>
My reading overlooked the subtle different there where it expands to the CHARACTER'S code point

[03:44:01.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: so I was thinking that the two character references expanded to two code points (surrogates) that when adjacent to one another signified an astral code point

[03:46:00.0000] <hsivonen>
robburns: did you read the BNF comment at http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#NT-Char ?

[03:46:01.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: At one point all the major browsers supported that reading

[03:46:02.0000] <robburns>
see https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6446

[03:46:03.0000] <robburns>
and later https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22210

[03:46:04.0000] <hsivonen>
robburns: browser behavior is not normative over XML :-)

[03:46:05.0000] <Philip`>
robburns: As far as I'm aware surrogates only signify astral code points in UTF-16, and UTF-16 doesn't seem relevant to character references at all

[03:47:00.0000] <robburns>
hsivonen: Yes, I did. However as I said in that email that makes it clear that you cannot have &#x0; but not so clear that you can't have two valid surrogates adjacent to one another.

[03:47:01.0000] <robburns>
Both IE and Safari still support this.

[03:48:00.0000] <yecril71>
Why is spell checking disabled by default?

[03:48:01.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: yeah, but having those surrogates as assigned code points (rather than a UTF issue) certainly contributes some ambiguity. After all we don't have UTF-8 code points assigned too.

[03:49:00.0000] <yecril71>
Spell checking should be enabled IMHO, except for text input controls.

[03:50:00.0000] <robburns>
yecril71: in my opinion, spell checking shouldn't be up to authors at all

[03:50:01.0000] <robburns>
spellchecking is just not an authors concern

[03:50:02.0000] <yecril71>
(INPUT[type=TEXT], that is)

[03:50:03.0000] <robburns>
meaning the author of the page, not the author now using that page to input html or other content

[03:50:04.0000] <yecril71>
But the latest specification says it should be off by default.

[03:51:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://philip.html5.org/misc/surrogate-charrefs.xml

[03:52:00.0000] <Philip`>
Gives error in Firefox 2, Opera 9.6, Safari 3.1; displays with no error in IE6

[03:52:01.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: you're right. I guess for XML Safari doesn't handle that. I had just tested in HTML, but I thought I had done it before in XHTML.

[03:52:02.0000] <Philip`>
IE8 does show an error message, but also seems to carry on parsing anyway

[03:53:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://philip.html5.org/misc/single-surrogate-charref.xml

[03:53:01.0000] <Philip`>
IE6 is happy with that too

[03:53:02.0000] <hsivonen>
robburns: may I suggest more careful testing next time before claiming unusual things about XML conformance on the mailing lists

[03:53:03.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: well I think a year or so ago, IIRC Safari, FireFox and IE were all handling those surrogates.

[03:53:04.0000] <Philip`>
(and IE8 does the same as the other example)

[03:54:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: Specifically I would like anolis to support anolislib.generator.fromFile(file, **kwargs) and anolislib.generator.toString(tree, **kwargs) which I implemented but left the patch elsewhere

[03:54:01.0000] <robburns>
hsivonen:  well with the flip-flopping on this (as it is described a the WebKit bugzilla) I don't think I should be held responsible for the most up-to-date state of this. 

[03:54:02.0000] <jgraham>
/me thinks about implementing it now

[03:55:00.0000] <robburns>
hsivonen: who knows tomorrow it might all work again in those browsers. There's some people out there who like to ensure there are as many fatal errors in XML as can be even if they aren't really in the spirit of fatal error handling of XML.

[03:55:01.0000] <Philip`>
robburns: Those bug reports are about HTML, which is not XML

[03:56:00.0000] <hsivonen>
robburns: when in doubt, you may assume that XML bugs Philip` has found in Validator.nu and I have fixed are actual XML violations

[03:56:01.0000] <robburns>
Philip`:  "HTML/XML character set (independent of actual character encoding of a document)

[03:56:02.0000] <robburns>
is Unicode/ISO 10646 and NCRs represent Unicode code points. They do not

[03:56:03.0000] <robburns>
represent '2byte code units' of UTF-16. So, NCRs with surrogate code points

[03:56:04.0000] <robburns>
should not be allowed whether they are paired or not. " Says XML there.

[03:56:05.0000] <robburns>
hsivonen: I don't agree.

[03:57:00.0000] <robburns>
hsivonen: I think this is open to interpretation and I don't think treating those  as fatal error is really in keeping with the reasons for fatal error handling in XML (on the other hand I think you're right that it shouldn't be serialized that way)

[03:57:01.0000] <Philip`>
robburns: It does literally say "XML", but it's only talking about changes to the HTML parser (hence it being the "HTML DOM" component, and referring to a bug which involved a change to the HTML parser)

[03:57:02.0000] <hsivonen>
robburns: I'm not suggesting taking me or Philip` as authorities. Just that checking specs carefully is a good idea before suggesting that someone else didn't grok the specs.

[03:58:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me is certainly not an authority, and is often mistaken :-)

[03:58:01.0000] <hsivonen>
robburns: when *you* think something is open to interpretation, it usually helps to check if multiple XML parser implementors happen to agree on the interpretation (they might have it right)

[03:59:00.0000] <robburns>
hsivonen: I quoted the spec and gave you my interpretation of it. I can see how Philip read it differently  now. However, there is room for interpretation there.

[03:59:01.0000] <yecril71>
Editorial: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2800&to=2801 features "asits"

[04:00:00.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: well I would count you here as an authority, but even authorities can get too draconian at times.

[04:01:00.0000] <robburns>
hsivonen:  I have checked multiple XML parsers (at least from my recollection). However, as I said the implementations are flip flopping on this because there's a group of interested parties who like to make sure XML is more draconian then it is intended to be. 

[04:01:01.0000] <Philip`>
robburns: I'm not interested in being draconian, just in understanding the spec in the same way that everyone else understands it

[04:01:02.0000] <robburns>
hsivonen as Philip` demonstrated IE does parse surrogate pair character references.

[04:02:00.0000] <Philip`>
and I haven't seen any evidence of people being indecisive about how to implement it in XML (as opposed to in HTML where it's not been specified before HTML5)

[04:02:01.0000] <jgraham>
/me wonders if gsnedders realises that fromFile will sometimes work if the input is actually a string

[04:02:02.0000] <Philip`>
except for IE starting to flag it as an error, following what other parsers seem to do

[04:04:00.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: here's another bug report https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18039

[04:04:01.0000] <robburns>
seems to be xml related

[04:05:00.0000] <hsivonen>
robburns: also doesn't support your interpretation :-)

[04:05:01.0000] <annevk5>
"because there's a group of interested parties who like to make sure XML is more draconian then it is intended to be" really? :)

[04:06:00.0000] <zcorpan>
robburns: the test case has "&#119604;&#119604;&#119604;" - doesn't look like surrogate character references to me

[04:06:01.0000] <annevk5>
it's an interesting conspiracy theory

[04:06:02.0000] <robburns>
yeah, I see that now

[04:07:00.0000] <robburns>
zcorpan: ^

[04:08:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me notes that his testing in IE6 was actually in Wine, and he's not sure if that would affect the results

[04:10:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me tries upgrading PimpMySpec.net to a version that allos you to set options for URL-based (rather than upload-based) requests

[04:11:00.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: I don't think that would change anything.

[04:11:01.0000] <jgraham>
It is much uglier than it used to be and has approximately no QA

[04:14:00.0000] <robburns>
annevk5: "because there's a group of interested parties who like to make sure XML is more draconian then it is intended to be" really? yes really!

[04:15:00.0000] <Philip`>
Ooh, there's even a test

[04:15:01.0000] <Philip`>
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2001/XML-Test-Suite/xmlconf/xmltest/not-wf/sa/145.xml?rev=1.1.1.1&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup

[04:15:02.0000] <Philip`>
(where the "not-wf" directory is used for not-well-formed documents)

[04:16:00.0000] <hsivonen>
clearly, the XML test suite folks are trying to make sure XML is more Draconian than it is intended to be!

[04:16:01.0000] <annevk5>
every year I file these bugs on browsers to fail on non-NFC content, but nobody implements :(

[04:18:00.0000] <annevk5>
robburns, kidding aside, anything in particular?

[04:19:00.0000] <robburns>
Philip`:  that test is a single surrogate unless I'm missing someting

[04:19:01.0000] <Philip`>
robburns: Oh, good point

[04:19:02.0000] <robburns>
hsivonen: I guess we're all too quick to find urls to prove the others wrong

[04:21:00.0000] <hsivonen>
http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/08/16/specs

[04:21:01.0000] <annevk5>
http://ajaxian.com/archives/frames-are-back oops

[04:23:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2001/XML-Test-Suite/xmlconf/oasis/p66fail6.xml?rev=1.1.1.1&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup

[04:23:01.0000] <Philip`>
("<TEST TYPE='not-wf' SECTIONS='4.1 [66]' ID='o-p66fail6' URI='p66fail6.xml'> no references to non-characters </TEST>")

[04:26:00.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: I guess since that test came after IE's implementation they didn't know about that.

[04:27:00.0000] <annevk5>
it's in the spec...

[04:28:00.0000] <robburns>
annevk5: no it's not (at least not clearly), we've already discussed that.

[04:29:00.0000] <robburns>
annevk5: so then we've looking to the implementations and, at least for xml, its IE on once side and everything else on the other (until IE8).

[04:34:00.0000] <Philip`>
See o-p66fail6 in http://xmlconf.sourceforge.net/xml/reports/report-msxml2-val.html vs http://www.xml.com/2000/08/30/msxml/msxml3-val.html

[04:34:01.0000] <robburns>
and for HTML firefox flip flopped and safari joined firefox (before they flipped back) and IE

[04:34:02.0000] <Philip`>
It was broken in a May 2000 preview, and fixed a few months later

[04:35:00.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: I'm not following what you mean. Broken as in they didn't support surrogate references or they did?

[04:35:01.0000] <Philip`>
robburns: I don't see the relevance of HTML to the parsing of XML

[04:35:02.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk5: in the first edition, even

[04:35:03.0000] <Philip`>
robburns: "Broken" as in they failed the test (and did not reject the document as not-well-formed)

[04:38:00.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: I"m not saying that HTML is relevant to XML, but rather it is relevant to the understanding that two numeric character references that reference valid surrogate pairs can be understood as referencing an astral character

[04:39:00.0000] <Philip`>
robburns: The only things that seem relevant to the parsing of character references in XML are the XML spec and current XML parser implementations

[04:39:01.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: Of course, but the way any reader reads a spec is colored by their understanding of everything they've read before (or understood before).

[04:40:00.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: Unless you think that specs are written with the precision of a programming language

[04:40:01.0000] <robburns>
and I've yet to see one that where I would say that.

[04:43:00.0000] <hsivonen>
anyone got test cases for innerHTML?

[04:43:01.0000] <Philip`>
robburns: Ah, indeed, it's relevant in terms of providing a rough mental model that lets people understand the specs more easily; it just doesn't seem helpful to use that rough mental model when discussing precise details of the spec's requirements

[04:44:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: yep, hold on

[04:44:01.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: I would also say that where you would treat the implementations as the arbiter of what the spec actually says, I would rather think about what the spirit of the spec

[04:45:00.0000] <zcorpan>
http://simon.html5.org/test/html/serializing/001.htm http://simon.html5.org/test/html/serializing/002.xht http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/fragment/content-model-flag/

[04:45:01.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: and in this case I would say that the IE treatment of surrogate pair references is more in keeping with the spirit of the xml spec regardless of what others have implemented or produced test cases to demonstrate

[04:45:02.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: great! thanks.

[04:46:00.0000] <Philip`>
robburns: I would treat the apparently unanimous interpretation of the spec by the experts who've implemented the spec and written and reviewed test cases, as being the only relevant interpretation of the spec

[04:47:00.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: I'd probably be with you if you didn't have to use the word "apparently" before "unanimous"

[04:47:01.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: some tests might be wrong by now though

[04:47:02.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: ok

[04:47:03.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: since one implementation didn't treat it that way.

[04:48:00.0000] <Philip`>
robburns: It's only "apparently" because I can only judge it based on all the evidence I've seen

[04:48:01.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/innerHTML/xml/

[04:48:02.0000] <zcorpan>
and ../

[04:48:03.0000] <Philip`>
robburns: I've not seen anything to indicate that was anything other than a bug, which got quickly fixed once it was identified

[04:48:04.0000] <hsivonen>
robburns: what's ambiguous about: "Characters referred to using character references must match the production for Char." and "Char  ::= #x9 | #xA | #xD | [#x20-#xD7FF] | [#xE000-#xFFFD] | [#x10000-#x10FFFF]"? (quotes from XML 1.0 1st ed.)

[04:49:00.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: which if I understand correctly had IE as doing something different than other implementations, right? So by "apparently unanimous" you meant "nearly unainimous"

[04:50:00.0000] <robburns>
hsivonen: I already addressed that. If it said "A character referred to using a character reference must math the production for Char" However, it says "Characters referred to using character references must match the production for Char" and it seems reasonable to interpret two surrogate paris (one high and one low) as matching that BNR notation.

[04:51:00.0000] <Philip`>
robburns: I mean that (apparently) nobody argued that they interpreted the XML spec as claiming &#xd800;&#xdc00; was valid, regardless of whether they had implementation bugs

[04:51:01.0000] <hsivonen>
robburns: no, it is not reasonable to interpret it in any other way except restricting the expansion of each NCR individually

[04:51:02.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: well whoever read it while implementing the IE parser must have read it that way.

[04:52:00.0000] <robburns>
hsivonen: It's sounds insane when you say that

[04:52:01.0000] <robburns>
hsivonen: Philip`'s quote was more to the point in favor of no surrogates.

[04:53:00.0000] <robburns>
"If the character reference begins with " &#x ", the digits and letters up to the terminating ; provide a hexadecimal representation of the character's code point in ISO/IEC 10646."

[04:53:01.0000] <Philip`>
robburns: More likely they didn't read it carefully at all, and just wrote something that seemed close enough

[04:54:00.0000] <Philip`>
or based it on ancient pre-first-edition version of XML that didn't have the same restrictions

[04:54:01.0000] <robburns>
the word "character" there leans it away from my interpretation. But that's still a a slight lean

[04:54:02.0000] <Philip`>
because that's how most spec-compliance bugs seems to come into existence

[04:54:03.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: Well one could always discount any and all interpretations with that argument. I could say maybe the IE developers were the only ones to read it carefully.

[04:55:00.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: the point is that fatal errors in the case of surrogates is unlike any of the fatal errors. It doesn't break the rest of the page the way others do.

[04:56:00.0000] <Philip`>
robburns: If they read the spec in accordance with its intent, why would they have changed their implementation when finding a test failed, rather than having the test be fixed and the spec clarified to match what was intended?

[04:56:01.0000] <zcorpan>
/me wonders why he is reading this discussion

[04:56:02.0000] <robburns>
Two well-formed numeric character references that happen to be an illegal character shouldn't break rendering of the rest of the page (the way other well-formedness errors should) That's what I'm talking about with the spirit of the spec. I agree a serializer shouldn't produce those, but that's a different situation.

[04:57:00.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: I'm not sure. I didn't really follow that web page you sent. I thought you were testing recent IE and it wasn't "fixed"

[04:58:00.0000] <robburns>
zcorpan: maybe it's like a train wreck :-)

[04:59:00.0000] <Philip`>
robburns: The two pages that gave conformance test results for some old (2000) versions of MSXML, and showed that a preview release failed and a slightly later release passed the test?

[04:59:01.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: Yeah, that's what I thought it said. But I also thought you said you tested IE and the surrogate pair references worked in 2009.

[05:00:00.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: and I couldn't reconcile those two things.

[05:00:01.0000] <Philip`>
That was IE6 (from 2001), running in Wine (so I've got no idea what version of MSXML it's using, or if it emulates it using some other code)

[05:01:00.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: OK I see. But didn't you say that IE8 was changing it?

[05:02:00.0000] <Philip`>
robburns: I said I tested in IE8 (on Vista) and it did report the error

[05:02:01.0000] <Philip`>
(Well, I didn't say the "on Vista" part)

[05:02:02.0000] <robburns>
but didn't wasn't fatal right?

[05:04:00.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: I mean "but it wasn't a fatal error, right?

[05:05:00.0000] <robburns>
"

[05:06:00.0000] <Philip`>
robburns: It's an error (and causes an error dialog box to appear), but (at least when I'm just navigating to the XML file directly in IE) it continues parsing the document and displays the rest of it in its usual DOM tree thing

[05:06:01.0000] <Philip`>
(&#0; has exactly the same effect)

[05:08:00.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: well that too is a different reading of the spec.

[05:10:00.0000] <Philip`>
If I access it via XMLHttpRequest, then responseXML is empty if I have &#0; or &#xd800;&#xdc00; etc

[05:11:00.0000] <Philip`>
so the error prevents the XML file from being used

[05:11:01.0000] <Philip`>
so it seems to be a fatal error in that context

[05:11:02.0000] <Philip`>
(It might just be an artifact of the default XML document display that makes it continue past some errors)

[05:22:00.0000] <robburns>
Philip`: which is another way of saying, a different reading of the spec :-)

[05:22:01.0000] <annevk5>
robburns, your way of reading specs is strange

[05:23:00.0000] <robburns>
annevk5: I'm sure it would to you.

[05:23:01.0000] <annevk5>
it seems I'm not alone

[05:23:02.0000] <robburns>
annevk5: no sadly.

[05:24:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me thinks robburns would do well as a professor of literature or simesuch

[05:24:01.0000] <jgraham>
*somesuch

[05:29:00.0000] <annevk5>
philosophy maybe?

[05:29:01.0000] <annevk5>
oh, he left

[05:29:02.0000] <annevk5>
:/

[05:29:03.0000] <jgraham>
I woner if I often have that effect on people

[05:30:00.0000] <takkaria>
rob is a professor of literature or somesuch, he's a PhD with interests in Marxist philosophy and history of thought

[05:31:00.0000] <annevk5>
ah, so I was close

[05:33:00.0000] <jgraham>
takkaria: I knew that bit don't know if it has roughly the same job requirements as Literature

[05:33:01.0000] <takkaria>
well, it's all much of a sameness

[05:35:00.0000] <jgraham>
(specifically Literature professors seem to get known for having a specific type of interpretation that they like e.g. Marxist or Feminist or whatever. Then they write about how literature fits their mode of interpretation)

[05:37:00.0000] <JohnResig>
Lachy: hey

[05:37:01.0000] <wilhelm>
/me would expect a more pragmatic, practice-based approach from a fellow marxist.

[05:41:00.0000] <Lachy>
JohnResig, I just wanted to check with you that it's OK I incorporate your selectors api tests directly into the official test suite, just for licencing reasons. (I'm not sure what licence the test suite will use yet, but I'll try and make it MIT or something)

[05:42:00.0000] <JohnResig>
Lachy: I think that's ok. I'm curious though - was there really a significant number of other tests to warrant the creation of a new suite?

[05:42:01.0000] <Lachy>
JohnResig, I created the stuff in CVS shortly before you created your tests

[05:43:00.0000] <Lachy>
then I haven't touched it much since, because I was using yours

[05:43:01.0000] <JohnResig>
Lachy: sure - so couldn't we just switch and use the one I created as the official one?

[05:43:02.0000] <Lachy>
possibly, but we would have to make it work in IE8

[05:44:00.0000] <JohnResig>
k, one sec

[05:44:01.0000] <Lachy>
that means we can't use constants like DOMException.SYNTAX_ERR, or tree walkers, and other stuff

[05:44:02.0000] <JohnResig>
Lachy: wait - *passes* in IE8 or *runs* in IE8?

[05:45:00.0000] <Lachy>
it currently doesn't run at all in IE8

[05:45:01.0000] <JohnResig>
lemme see

[05:46:00.0000] <JohnResig>
ok, let me fiddle around with it

[05:46:01.0000] <Lachy>
oh, and where you set the css and ecss variables, you would need to use .innerHTML rathern than .firstChild.nodeValue to get the CSS from the style elements

[05:46:02.0000] <JohnResig>
yeah, I just got to that line, as well :)

[05:54:00.0000] <JohnResig>
Lachy: eww... removing the tree walker is going to make things dicey

[05:54:01.0000] <JohnResig>
Lachy: since this was designed to work on document fragments as well

[05:54:02.0000] <JohnResig>
hmm

[05:54:03.0000] <Lachy>
yeah, that's the bit I got stuck on too

[05:54:04.0000] <JohnResig>
I'll fiddle with it

[05:55:00.0000] <JohnResig>
I've already fixed the CSS loading and the DOMException stuff

[05:59:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: ping

[06:12:00.0000] <yecril71>
MSIE supports objStyle.text

[06:15:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: I have a patch for anolis. Also I have updated pms.net to allow passing in options in some cases (specifically: in the case where one GETs a URL rather than POSTs a file) but I have no idea if it works right

[06:16:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: email it to me

[06:16:01.0000] <gsnedders>
(Sorry, now really isn't a good time for me.)

[06:17:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: OK

[06:26:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: Sent

[06:27:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: I'll reply later (where later means sometime in the future :))

[06:31:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: No panic

[06:31:01.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: That's usually what "later" means...

[06:31:02.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: Except on a closed-timelike-loop when it also means sometime in the past

[06:32:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Good point

[06:32:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: Go read up on emphasis by repetition.

[07:04:00.0000] <Lachy>
sicking, re http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Feb/0249.html - any existing filter that lets through unknown elements like <handler>, would be just as likely to let through new elements like <video> and new event attributes.

[07:04:01.0000] <Lachy>
so, e.g. <video onloadstart="xssAttack();"> would be just as problematic

[07:06:00.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: They could block any attributes starting with "on"

[07:08:00.0000] <jgraham>
Die, Spellchecking thread, die

[07:08:01.0000] <Lachy>
Philip`, it's possible that they could use a proper whitelist, which would eliminate all the problems. But that doesn't mean there aren't systems out there using black lists that let unknown stuff slip through.

[07:10:00.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: There might be systems that use blacklists that block some unknown stuff (like attributes starting with "on") but not all other unknown stuff (like <handler> elements)

[07:12:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me doesn't know if there really are any, but it doesn't seem too preposterous

[07:16:00.0000] <Lachy>
It would be irresponsible to assume that there aren't any such vulnerable systems. It's safer to accept their existence as a possibility

[08:41:00.0000] <JohnResig>
Lachy: it's running in IE8 now: http://ejohn.org/apps/selectortest/

[08:41:01.0000] <JohnResig>
Lachy: I'm getting 45.9% passing

[08:45:00.0000] <Lachy>
JohnResig, ok. Can you mail publc-webapps and let them know the result

[08:45:01.0000] <JohnResig>
Lachy: sure

[08:47:00.0000] <Lachy>
it looks like many of those failures are due to lack of support for CSS3 selectors. But there are still a few worrying ones with the API

[08:47:01.0000] <Lachy>
what are the "Whitespace Trim" tests testing?

[08:48:00.0000] <JohnResig>
Lachy: I add extra whitespace characters around the selector (spaces, tabs, etc.) all of which should be trimmed

[08:48:01.0000] <JohnResig>
(according to the spec)

[08:48:02.0000] <JohnResig>
I'm sure if they fixed that it would solve a lot of problems - along with the implementation of proper exceptions

[08:48:03.0000] <JohnResig>
that seems to be the majority

[08:50:00.0000] <Lachy>
ok, that's what I though. I was sure that issue was pointed out to them long ago.  Their inconsistent handling of whitespace of one fo the reasons I discovered and specced that anyway.

[08:50:01.0000] <Lachy>
s/of one fo/was one of/

[08:57:00.0000] <JohnResig>
Lachy: email sent

[08:57:01.0000] <Lachy>
thanks

[10:09:00.0000] <yecril71>
I feel quite comfortable writing XML, especially in an editor that supports autoclose.

[10:09:01.0000] <yecril71>
And reading XML is much easier then reading something purportedly more readable,

[10:10:00.0000] <yecril71>
like bash script or wikitext, or even C++.

[10:10:01.0000] <yecril71>
The languages that rely on parentheses for nesting are unreadable.

[10:11:00.0000] <jcranmer>
LISP?

[10:11:01.0000] <jcranmer>
sorry

[10:11:02.0000] <jcranmer>
LISP *patooie*

[10:12:00.0000] <yecril71>
Python tries not to, but only for statements, not for expressions.

[10:12:01.0000] <yecril71>
OTOH, Python is unwritable (at least for me).

[10:16:00.0000] <yecril71>
So XML is a jolly good fellow, in spite of the rumours that some people are trying to spread :-)

[10:48:00.0000] <dimich>
Is XmlHttpRequest specification a part of HTML5 or some other specification? I can't find it in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work ...

[10:49:00.0000] <svl>
dimich: it started out there, but is now at http://www.w3.org/TR/XMLHttpRequest/

[10:49:01.0000] <dimich>
svl: thx! 

[12:01:00.0000] <annevk5>
dimich, you want http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest/ and http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest-2/ probably

[12:06:00.0000] <dimich>
annevk5: thanks! I see, those are the latest ones :-)

[12:07:00.0000] <annevk5>
yup

[12:27:00.0000] <tantek>
re: hit-testing and transparency, since this effects event handling, is this something HTML5 says (should say or does say) something about? real world case today, the "Don't Click" viral attack that occurred on Twitter this morning (PST). exploit source here for your inspection: http://pastie.org/387315

[12:29:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: Why does rowspan=0 make cells very tall, when IE just ignores rowspan=0 entirely and makes it 1 row tall?

[12:30:00.0000] <Philip`>
(Presumably it can't be needed for compatibility, and so it's unnecessary complexity)

[12:34:00.0000] <Philip`>
Oh, I suppose it's there because HTML4 said that's what rowspan=0 means

[12:35:00.0000] <Philip`>
Firefox already ignores it in quirks mode

[12:36:00.0000] <Philip`>
Safari 3.2 and IE6 and IE8 always ignore it (in quirks and standards)

[12:36:01.0000] <Philip`>
Opera 9.6 never ignores it

[13:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
lol someone on reddit told me to look up the acronym "css"

[13:22:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: where?

[13:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/7wr4i/new_eu_rule_requires_all_web_servers_to_log_ip/c07mfrb?context=3

[13:25:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: Yeah, I just found that by finding your profile by googling for hixie reddit :P

[13:26:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: Also, re:top gear, I too have see things about filming shots for the races after the actual race

[13:26:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah i found a blog entry about it later

[13:26:02.0000] <Hixie>
see a comment i made

[13:28:00.0000] <Philip`>
Top Gear faking shots? That'd never happen :-(

[13:28:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Well, they already faked a death.

[13:28:02.0000] <gsnedders>
And then revealed that the dead lived.

[13:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
it's not really faking shots

[13:29:01.0000] <Hixie>
i mean the shots are real

[13:29:02.0000] <Hixie>
and what they depict did happen

[13:29:03.0000] <Philip`>
Well, faking the context of shots

[13:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
that's what tv is pretty much all about :-)

[13:30:01.0000] <Philip`>
I remember some people commenting on http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-471541/BBC-admit-Top-Gear-caravan-blaze-fake.html actually having faked shots (simulating big fires by putting little fires in front of the camera)

[13:30:02.0000] <gsnedders>
This is why live TV is interesting.

[13:30:03.0000] <gsnedders>
A challenge of how well you can do it.

[13:30:04.0000] <Philip`>
(Not commenting on that article, just on the event which that article describes)

[13:30:05.0000] <annevk5>
Yet another series of e-mail with someone from QA about namespaces and attributes; I've enough of this fricking RDF tax

[13:31:00.0000] <annevk5>
Someone please take Namespaces in XML around the back and shoot it.

[13:32:00.0000] <Hixie>
jesus, svg 1.2 tiny makes elements focusable based on _whether there is an event listener for DOMFocusIn_

[13:32:01.0000] <Hixie>
not even on whether the event handler doesn't cancel the event or anything

[13:34:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me saw a recent remake of The Quatermass Experiment which was broadcast live, and it's probably the first (and only) live-broadcast drama show he's ever seen

[13:35:00.0000] <Philip`>
(It worked pretty well, except for some occasional rubbish sound balancing and a couple of wrong lines)

[13:36:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: Does "The Bill" count as drama? AFIAK they've done special live versions of that

[13:36:01.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: It probably does, but I've not watched it since about ten years ago :-)

[13:37:00.0000] <gsnedders>
I've never watched it :)

[13:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
so in svg... if you hook up an event listener to catch events for a group of elements (e.g. on a <g>)

[13:39:01.0000] <Hixie>
the element suddenly becomes focusable itself

[13:39:02.0000] <Hixie>
good lord

[13:39:03.0000] <Hixie>
that's gotta make debugging svg a pain in the ass

[13:40:00.0000] <gsnedders>
and then shepazu joins, right on cue.

[13:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[13:41:01.0000] <Hixie>
shepazu: any idea where in svg 1.2 tiny it says that focus is lost when the element is removed?

[14:15:00.0000] <Hixie>
aaaah!

[14:15:01.0000] <Hixie>
pimpmyspec.net broke back compat!

[14:16:00.0000] <annevk5>
ooh, it broke the WHATWG credo?

[14:17:00.0000] <Hixie>
jesus, this is going to be a pain

[14:17:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me tries to work out what options he wants based on the html source he's looking at

[14:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
jesus what a lot of options

[14:18:01.0000] <Hixie>
i hope there are good defaults

[14:19:00.0000] <Hixie>
it never ends!

[14:19:01.0000] <Hixie>
bad jgraham 

[14:19:02.0000] <Hixie>
bad!

[14:19:03.0000] <Hixie>
:-P

[14:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
well whatever options i picked were the wrong options, clearly

[14:20:01.0000] <Hixie>
this is a 64000 line diff

[14:21:00.0000] <Hixie>
i wonder what i need to change

[14:21:01.0000] <Hixie>
let's try w3c_compat_xref_a_placement

[14:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok that helped, 44000 lines now

[14:23:00.0000] <Hixie>
it stopped omitting tags, hmm

[14:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me looks

[14:23:02.0000] <Hixie>
aha, omit_optional_tags

[14:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
maybe i want lxml_html

[14:25:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh yes, much faster

[14:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
no that didn't work either

[14:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
wtf

[14:28:02.0000] <Hixie>
man this is a pain

[14:28:03.0000] <Hixie>
i wonder how to get back to what it was like before

[14:29:00.0000] <Philip`>
Try using http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:mEF8fH15-joJ:pimpmyspec.net/

[14:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
uh huh

[14:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
i can't get it to act as before!

[14:30:02.0000] <Hixie>
/me cries

[14:30:03.0000] <Philip`>
What kinds of differences does it have?

[14:32:00.0000] <Hixie>
e.g.

[14:32:01.0000] <Hixie>
-  </style><link href=status.css rel=stylesheet><script>

[14:32:02.0000] <Hixie>
+  </style>

[14:32:03.0000] <Hixie>
+  <link href=status.css rel=stylesheet>

[14:32:04.0000] <Hixie>
+  <script>

[14:32:05.0000] <Hixie>
or:

[14:32:06.0000] <Hixie>
-  </script><body class=draft onload=init()>

[14:32:07.0000] <Hixie>
+  </script>

[14:32:08.0000] <Hixie>
+ </head>

[14:32:09.0000] <Hixie>
+ <body class=draft onload=init()>

[14:33:00.0000] <Hixie>
and:

[14:33:01.0000] <Hixie>
-   <h2 class="no-num no-toc" id=draft-recommendation-&mdash;-date:-01-jan-1901>Draft Recommendation &mdash; 12 February 2009</h2>

[14:33:02.0000] <Hixie>
+   <h2 class="no-num no-toc" id=draft-recommendation-\342\200\224-date:-01-jan-1901>Draft Recommendation \342\200\224 12 February 2009</h2>

[14:35:00.0000] <Philip`>
How odd

[14:36:00.0000] <annevk5>
oops, clearly there should've been stable.pimpmyspec.net or something (or this should've been on unstable.pimpmyspec.net)

[14:38:00.0000] <Philip`>
That sounds like a lot of effort compared to just waiting until jgraham comes back and fixes it

[14:43:00.0000] <heycam>
Hixie, what's the difference between http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/index and http://specs/web-apps/current-work/

[14:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
the second one doesn't exist

[14:43:02.0000] <heycam>
oops

[14:43:03.0000] <Hixie>
or is that a trick question?

[14:43:04.0000] <Hixie>
:-P

[14:44:00.0000] <heycam>
insert an "www.whatwg.org/" in there

[14:44:01.0000] <Hixie>
oh

[14:44:02.0000] <Hixie>
the former is the svn repo of the latter

[14:44:03.0000] <Hixie>
the latter is my working directory

[14:44:04.0000] <gsnedders>
ergh. almost an hour between trains.

[14:44:05.0000] <heycam>
ok, but i can be reasonably up to date by just "svn up"ing the former, and reading index?

[14:44:06.0000] <Hixie>
i edit current-work/working-copy, then when i run my update script it gets copied over to current-work/source and regenned to current-work/index, and when i commit it goes to svn.whatwg.org and dev.w3.org

[14:45:00.0000] <Hixie>
yes

[14:45:01.0000] <heycam>
ok i see

[14:45:02.0000] <heycam>
thanks

[14:45:03.0000] <Hixie>
there are three levels; last stable checkin, what i last saved and generated, and what i literally am typing right now

[14:45:04.0000] <Hixie>
svn is the first of those three

[14:45:05.0000] <Hixie>
(as is w3c cvs)

[14:45:06.0000] <Hixie>
if you're looking at the source of the doc, you want the /source file not /index

[14:46:00.0000] <Hixie>
/index has all the cross-references, etc

[14:46:01.0000] <heycam>
right. i just want an offline copy of the spec, so reading index is what i need, i think.

[14:46:02.0000] <Hixie>
k

[14:46:03.0000] <Hixie>
ok well since i can't work on the spec until jgraham gets back, i guess i'll go to work and get some food

[14:46:04.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: pms.net down?

[14:46:05.0000] <Hixie>
gsnedders: see above

[14:46:06.0000] <Philip`>
/me hopes jgraham hasn't been hit by a bus, because that'd be the end of the entire HTML5 endeavour

[14:47:00.0000] <gsnedders>
ah

[14:47:01.0000] <Hixie>
right, back in a bit

[14:48:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me hopes he can find the right bus stop to get off at tomorrow

[14:49:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me also he doesn't have such a bad cold

[15:24:00.0000] <heycam>
/me only just realised that the names of the CSS 2.1 appendices all begin with their appendix letter

[15:29:00.0000] <Philip`>
I guess that's why there's no appendix H

[15:30:00.0000] <heycam>
yeah, Index is a nice one to finish on

[15:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
there is an appendix H

[15:30:02.0000] <heycam>
oh

[15:30:03.0000] <heycam>
oops

[15:30:04.0000] <heycam>
i missed that...

[15:30:05.0000] <Hixie>
no, you didn't :-)

[15:30:06.0000] <heycam>
and also overlooked the fact that H is before I :)

[15:31:00.0000] <heycam>
H for the Hidden Appendix?

[15:31:01.0000] <Hixie>
almost

[15:31:02.0000] <Hixie>
but there actually is a page for it

[15:31:03.0000] <Hixie>
it's just not listed in the table of contents

[15:32:00.0000] <heycam>
ahaha

[15:32:01.0000] <Hixie>
i'm quite proud that the wg actually ended up with the joke around the appendix names

[15:32:02.0000] <heycam>
i see it :)

[15:32:03.0000] <Hixie>
it was a lot easier to slide jokes into html5 :-P

[15:32:04.0000] <Hixie>
selectors also has joke sections, though actually in the case of selectors it was completely unintentional

[15:32:05.0000] <Hixie>
(look for the section after :empty)

[15:33:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/leftblank.html ?

[15:33:01.0000] <Hixie>
yup, that's H

[15:33:02.0000] <heycam>
i notice you can get to it from the next/previous chapter links

[15:33:03.0000] <Philip`>
Oh, I didn't see the next/previous links

[15:34:00.0000] <Hixie>
appendix E in CSS2.1, and to a less extent F, were the only ones that we had to really stretch for

[15:34:01.0000] <Hixie>
lesser rather

[15:34:02.0000] <heycam>
that section after :empty thing reminds me of the discussion about the hebrew numbering system on www-style recently

[15:34:03.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[15:34:04.0000] <Hixie>
you wouldn't believe the number of private e-mails i've gotten about that section telling me how stupid i am for leaving it blank

[15:35:00.0000] <heycam>
heh really

[15:35:01.0000] <Hixie>
but actually it was just a coincidence -- we wanted to remove that section (it defined :contains(), which we removed in CR) and we didn't want to renumber things

[15:36:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, wasn't that section 6.6.6 in Selectors, not Appenix H in CSS21?

[15:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
yes, that's what i'm talking about

[15:37:01.0000] <Hixie>
i was responding to heycam

[15:37:02.0000] <Lachy>
oh, I didn't see a mention of selectors spec. Now I see he mentioned :empty

[15:37:03.0000] <Hixie>
so is anyone in the same country as jgraham 

[15:39:00.0000] <Philip`>
I'm not aware of any countries with a population of 1, so almost certainly there is someone

[15:39:01.0000] <Lachy>
he's in Sweden. There's probalby some people from Opera's swedish office hanging around in here

[15:39:02.0000] <Lachy>
though zcorpan isn't here

[15:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: i meant anyone here :-P

[15:41:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, why do you need someone from the same country?

[15:41:01.0000] <Hixie>
so they can go and see if he's awake

[15:42:00.0000] <Philip`>
"This expression has type 'a * 'b * 'c * int * int but is here used with type ((int * int * int * int) * node * 'd) * int * int * int * int * ((int * int * int * int) * ((int * int * int * int) * node * 'd) * 'e) list"

[15:42:01.0000] <Philip`>
OCaml is great

[15:43:00.0000] <jwalden>
Hindley-Milner really is pretty cool, until you screw it up

[15:43:01.0000] <Philip`>
Oh, I forgot to add one function argument

[15:44:00.0000] <Lachy>
oh, so you'd want someone who also knows where he lives and is willing to go out in the cold snow, go over to his place and knock on his door.  That reduces the number of candidates significantly

[15:45:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: actually i'm not sure it really does, of the people in this channel :-)

[15:45:01.0000] <Lachy>
well, if it goes from 0 down to 0, then that's no change I guess

[15:51:00.0000] <ojan>
Hixie: ping

[15:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
hey

[15:52:00.0000] <ojan>
why did you spec execCommand("InsertHTML") to not fire mutation events?

[15:52:01.0000] <ojan>
is taht just what FF does?

[15:59:00.0000] <ojan>
just curious :)


2009-02-13
[16:03:00.0000] <Lachy>
it's nice when people present problems for which we already have solutions in HTML5 :-) http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/12/selector-blocks/

[16:03:01.0000] <Lachy>
scoped stylesheets should work nicely for that use case

[16:06:00.0000] <Hixie>
ojan: the mutation events stuff is all up in the ir

[16:06:01.0000] <Hixie>
air

[16:06:02.0000] <Hixie>
ojan: i don't think it matches firefox

[16:06:03.0000] <Hixie>
ojan: i'm waiting for the dom events spec to mature before looking at them again

[16:08:00.0000] <ojan>
Hixie: got it.

[16:16:00.0000] <jruderman>
scoped stylesheets are coming? sweet

[16:17:00.0000] <jruderman>
i've been wanting that for blog posts

[16:27:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: Am I being stupid in thinking that the logic for opaque headers seems to be the wrong way around?

[16:27:01.0000] <Hixie>
?

[16:28:00.0000] <Philip`>
If I have a table like <tr><th>A<tr><td>B and look at cell B and do the internal algorithm for scanning and assigning header cells, then in the first iteration at step 9.4 the opaque headers list will be empty ...

[16:28:01.0000] <Philip`>
which means that "there is no cell in the opaque headers list anchored with the same (stuff)"

[16:28:02.0000] <Philip`>
which means blocked is set to true

[16:29:00.0000] <Philip`>
which means the cell (A) isn't added to the headers list

[16:29:01.0000] <Hixie>
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6438 ?

[16:30:00.0000] <Philip`>
Oh

[16:30:01.0000] <Philip`>
Yes

[16:30:02.0000] <Philip`>
I agree with that bug report :-)

[16:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me wonders what to do about his not having a working anolis anymore

[16:50:00.0000] <heycam>
svn up -rPREV?

[16:54:00.0000] <Hixie>
i don't have the code myself

[16:54:01.0000] <Hixie>
it's on pimpmyspect.net

[16:54:02.0000] <Hixie>
pimpmyspec.net

[16:54:03.0000] <heycam>
pimp my spectacles, elton john style

[16:55:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Pimp my spec still doesn't add bling

[17:01:00.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: disregard my earlier whining. the three regressions i see on pimpmyspec.net (after fixing it to use the new urls etc) are:

[17:01:01.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: 1. it's slower

[17:01:02.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: 2. it doesn't omit as many start tags (see the diff i just committed)

[17:02:00.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: 3. it doesn't use entity references for characters outside of ascii (i don't trust all the servers involved to do utf-8 correctly)

[17:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
jeez windows sucks

[00:27:00.0000] <zcorpan>
the xhtml media types note has " <script>//<![CDATA[" in an example which is invalid xhtml 1.x

[00:54:00.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: So, I am here now

[00:54:01.0000] <jgraham>
/me is still waiting for the internet fairies to visit his flat

[00:59:00.0000] <jgraham>
The repo for pms.net is http://hg.hoppipolla.co.uk/hgwebdir.cgi/aquarium/ although that has almost no history for reasons best explained as incompetance

[01:17:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hey it's friday 13th today

[01:18:00.0000] <zcorpan>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Feb/0032.html

[01:22:00.0000] <yecril71>
krijnh!  Would it be much trouble to turn the channel in the log path to a hyperlink?

[01:23:00.0000] <yecril71>
I think the METER element would be appropriate for specifying price.

[01:23:01.0000] <yecril71>
And INPUT[type=currency], where appropriate.

[01:24:00.0000] <hsivonen>
yecril71: in practice, people don't use a widget for price. <meter> is the gauge widget.

[01:27:00.0000] <annevk5>
Hixie, any particular reason why C in filename had to be lowercase?

[01:30:00.0000] <fearphage>
annevk5: may i pm you an opera-centric question?

[01:30:01.0000] <annevk5>
i suppose

[01:31:00.0000] <fearphage>
don't be so enthusiastic next time :)

[01:48:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me hopes Hixie is not trying to gen the spec right now

[02:01:00.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: OK the ascii thing is fixed. It is now another option :(

[02:01:01.0000] <jgraham>
/me hates options

[02:02:00.0000] <jgraham>
I don't know why it should omit fewer start tags

[02:03:00.0000] <jgraham>
It does seem a bit slow

[02:04:00.0000] <jgraham>
annevk5: Do you have the old anolis.py from quuz.org somewhere? I could compare notes with that

[02:04:01.0000] <annevk5>
http://anolis.quuz.org/source is still there

[02:05:00.0000] <annevk5>
comparing notes with code I write is not recommended though

[02:06:00.0000] <jgraham>
annevk5: More to see which options were being passed and whether it is really slower

[02:07:00.0000] <annevk5>
fearphage, I'm generally wary of people asking to ask questions ;)

[02:18:00.0000] <krijnh>
yecril71: what do you mean?

[02:26:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: I assume you are not around

[02:28:00.0000] <fearphage>
annevk5: people seemed to get offended by people pm'ing them freely at times

[02:30:00.0000] <jgraham>
fearphage: Usually the best solution is to just ask

[02:30:01.0000] <jgraham>
"beg forgiveness not permission"

[02:31:00.0000] <jgraham>
Also there are a number of people here who might be able to help with something Opera related (or s/Opera/$Browser/) so it seems a bit unfair to pick on annevk5 

[02:36:00.0000] <fearphage>
never thought of it that way

[02:36:01.0000] <virtuelv>
instead of asking to ask a question, I'd say "just ask it"

[02:37:00.0000] <virtuelv>
fearphage: there is also an #opera channel on freenode, I just discovered

[02:40:00.0000] <yecril71>
Krijnh!  The log page header contains the path to the log.

[02:40:01.0000] <krijnh>
Yes

[02:41:00.0000] <yecril71>
It would be awesome if the channel component were a hyperlink.

[02:41:01.0000] <krijnh>
Where to?

[02:41:02.0000] <yecril71>
Just at the main page.

[02:41:03.0000] <yecril71>
Just as at the main page.

[02:41:04.0000] <yecril71>
To IRC.

[02:41:05.0000] <krijnh>
/irc-logs/ has that link already ?

[02:41:06.0000] <annevk5>
you mean on individual archive pages?

[02:42:00.0000] <annevk5>
you're not being very clear

[02:42:01.0000] <yecril71>
The channel names on the main page are hyperlinked.

[02:42:02.0000] <yecril71>
Whereas in log pages they are not.

[02:43:00.0000] <yecril71>
I hope you would not have to pay Amazon for that :-)

[02:44:00.0000] <yecril71>
My remark about METER and price was triggered by a request for a PRICE element.

[02:48:00.0000] <Lachy>
krijnh, if you're going to update the IRC logs, then please add the links to the next and previous days in the logs

[02:50:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me is usually happy with just editing the URL to switch dates

[02:54:00.0000] <Lachy>
Philip`, that takes too long

[02:55:00.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: It takes much less time than reading the page

[02:56:00.0000] <Philip`>
and if you're skipping past lots of pages without reading them, changing the URL is quicker than clicking next/previous lots of times

[02:58:00.0000] <Lachy>
Philip`, the use case I'm trying to address is where the transition from one day to the next occurs in the middle of a conversation, splitting it in half

[02:59:00.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: Ah, okay

[03:08:00.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: I think something like http://tinyurl.com/b8zs92 is roughly what PimpMySpec used to do for html5

[03:09:00.0000] <jgraham>
I guess I should run a diff against something to be sure but I don't quite know what

[03:10:00.0000] <krijnh>
Lachy: yeah, and Ben's styling too

[03:10:01.0000] <krijnh>
yecril71: done

[03:11:00.0000] <yecril71>
Thx :-)

[03:58:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Does rubys have a license for his SVG icons somewhere?

[04:14:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me doesn't hold out too much hope for other people writing table tests

[04:31:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Yesterday I was kind of attempting to write an independent implementation of the table stuff, so its output could be compared to yours

[04:32:00.0000] <Philip`>
and I could probably mostly finish that today

[04:34:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: Cool. You can now have an entirely trivial set of testcases that cover almost nothing useful

[04:37:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: The test case format is not entirely helpful to me, since it uses HTML and I don't have an HTML parser easily available

[04:37:01.0000] <Philip`>
I suppose I don't actually have an XML parser or any kind of parser at all, but I presume I could find an XML library fairly easily...

[04:37:02.0000] <Philip`>
(Also using HTML is bad because you can't test <tr> outside of <tbody>)

[04:42:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: My assumption is that you have already parsed the table in accord with the table model in the spec

[04:42:01.0000] <jgraham>
s/have/have a way to/

[04:43:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: I violate your assumption :-)

[04:43:01.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: This is too often the case

[04:44:00.0000] <Philip`>
but I could write a script to parse the test format into something I can understand, so that's not really a problem

[04:44:01.0000] <Philip`>
but the inability to test <tr> outside <tbody> seems like a real problem, because it makes some of the spec untestable

[04:45:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: My second assumption was that it would not be so hard to do that

[04:53:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Would it be good for the tests to all include the expected slot assignments, rather than simply the headers?

[04:53:01.0000] <Philip`>
since all that stuff is kind of mixed up together, so maybe it's sensible to test all of it

[04:58:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: My goal was to make it as trivial as possible to write the tests. If you can think of a way to do it whereby both things get tested for little increase in complexity, I'm very much open to it

[04:59:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: I suppose that's an issue

[05:00:00.0000] <zcorpan>
have two formats, one html and one xml, where the xml one is used for the no-tbody tests

[05:01:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me might just try generating a load of random test cases and comparing the output from implementations, rather than doing any actual work and writing tests by hand

[05:01:01.0000] <zcorpan>
(and flag the xml with e.g. "#input xml")

[05:09:00.0000] <Philip`>
(XML is also needed for testing that non-table elements get skipped properly, I guess)

[05:09:01.0000] <Philip`>
(Though all this is presumably only relevant for the slot-assignment tests, not the header-assignment tests)

[05:35:00.0000] <zcorpan>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0010.html

[05:36:00.0000] <annevk42>
he's looking for "mu" but if you're working on XHTML2 it seems pretty tough to reach markup enlightenment

[05:48:00.0000] <zcorpan>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Feb/0000.html - wonder why lang is not more attractive than xml:lang if the desire is to have just one of them in the end

[06:22:00.0000] <annevk42>
http://coolepochcountdown.com/

[06:33:00.0000] <krijnh>
Zeker een coole poch countdown :)

[06:37:00.0000] <Dashiva>
It's such a ripoff of 12:34:56 on 7/8-90

[06:39:00.0000] <Lachy>
JohnResig, yt?

[06:40:00.0000] <Lachy>
JohnResig, webkit is still failing 1 test: "FAIL Inside Element: :target selector".  There must be a rounding error in your script that calculates 2162 out of 2163 as 100%

[06:41:00.0000] <JohnResig>
Lachy: you have to access it directly

[06:41:01.0000] <JohnResig>
http://ejohn.org/apps/selectortest/#

[06:41:02.0000] <JohnResig>
oops

[06:41:03.0000] <JohnResig>
http://ejohn.org/apps/selectortest/

[06:41:04.0000] <JohnResig>
Lachy: just hitting reload on it is not sufficient

[06:42:00.0000] <Lachy>
oh, why?

[06:44:00.0000] <JohnResig>
Lachy: *shrug*

[06:59:00.0000] <hsivonen>
now I've filled 45 min with boring history and design principles

[06:59:01.0000] <hsivonen>
now I need to figure out a nicer way to use the other 45 min to talk about new features

[06:59:02.0000] <hsivonen>
just enumerating them is boring

[07:00:00.0000] <hsivonen>
and demos are always a risk when presenting

[07:00:01.0000] <jgraham>
OTOH demos are kind of fun

[07:00:02.0000] <jgraham>
You could prerecord the demos using some screengrab software

[07:00:03.0000] <Dashiva>
Nothing says bleeding edge like a non-working demo

[07:01:00.0000] <hsivonen>
do we have a wiki repo of links to demos so that I don't need to write them?

[07:01:01.0000] <jgraham>
where by "screengrab" I mean "one of those things for recording your screen to video"

[07:01:02.0000] <hsivonen>
should I just use Hixie's demos?

[07:02:00.0000] <annevk42>
oh fun, more namespace confusion; I should hang out more often in the Oslo office

[07:03:00.0000] <annevk42>
Core developer just came asking about a certain testcase that tested that namespaced attributes were not considered the same as attributes not in a namespace...

[07:03:01.0000] <Lachy>
hsivonen, I have some video demos

[07:04:00.0000] <Lachy>
hsivonen, http://lachy.id.au/dev/markup/examples/video/

[07:36:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: thanks

[07:37:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: your links to Ogg claim to be links to MPEG-4

[07:39:00.0000] <Lachy>
really? I thought I had fixed that bug before

[07:39:01.0000] <Lachy>
d'oh. Either I forgot to upload the changes, or I never fixed it

[07:40:00.0000] <Lachy>
I will fix it later when I get home

[07:46:00.0000] <Lachy>
wtf? PTW is complaining about the spec being published and not knowing about it, but I distinctly remember it being discussed weeks ago

[07:46:01.0000] <Lachy>
besides, it's just another WD. We shouldn't need to go through too much bureaucracy each time they're published

[07:46:02.0000] <annevk42>
somebody else's problem :)

[07:47:00.0000] <Lachy>
indeed.

[07:47:01.0000] <Lachy>
/me errects a Somebody Else's Problem field around it and makes it disappear.

[08:36:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Is http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.html meant to die with an AttributeError on input like <table><tr><th scope="row">A</table> ?

[08:42:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: Yes.

[08:42:01.0000] <jgraham>
No wait, I mean no.

[08:42:02.0000] <jgraham>
:-p

[08:46:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: Fixed?

[08:48:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: It appears so

[08:52:00.0000] <Philip`>
The HTML5 spec doesn't seem to define algorithms in a way that perfectly matches functional programming languages :-(

[08:58:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hmm, the algorithm for processing rows says "To establish which header cells apply to the current cell element, use the algorithm for assigning header cells described in the next section" which sounds to me like you should run that algorithm immediately to find the headers

[08:58:01.0000] <Philip`>
but that algorithms needs to check if the current cell is part of a row group

[08:59:00.0000] <Philip`>
and row groups are only computed after the algorithm for processing rows has completed

[09:00:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders if jgraham avoids that problem by processing the whole table before looking for any headers

[09:06:00.0000] <Philip`>
(...or if I'm just misreading the spec)

[09:17:00.0000] <virtuelv>
hm

[09:18:00.0000] <virtuelv>
http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2009/02/specify-your-canonical.html

[09:31:00.0000] <Philip`>
That blog post breaks in Opera :-(

[09:34:00.0000] <wilhelm>
Philip`: How? WFM in the O10 alpha.

[09:35:00.0000] <Philip`>
wilhelm: Unclosed <code> makes the rest of the page code-coloured, in 9.63

[09:35:01.0000] <wilhelm>
Ah, didn't see that.

[09:36:00.0000] <wilhelm>
Still broken.

[09:50:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: You assumed correctly. I was in another city.

[09:51:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: For patch the second, change "lxml" to "lxml.html" or some such string. Need to cope with both HTML and XML parsers in lxml

[09:52:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: Equally, I assume you are not here now.

[09:54:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me only looked for two seconds so he hasn't looked very closely

[09:56:00.0000] <Hixie>
uh oh

[09:57:00.0000] <Hixie>
pms changed again

[09:57:01.0000] <Hixie>
uh

[09:57:02.0000] <Hixie>
it's returning nothing

[09:57:03.0000] <Hixie>
that seems bad

[09:58:00.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: Fuck. Sorry.

[09:58:01.0000] <jgraham>
I need to go though

[09:58:02.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[09:58:03.0000] <Hixie>
no worries

[09:58:04.0000] <jgraham>
Try quuz.org or whatever annevk42's site is

[09:58:05.0000] <jgraham>
I will fix it tommorrow

[09:58:06.0000] <Hixie>
k

[09:59:00.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: It rturns something for me btw

[10:00:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'll poke at it

[10:00:01.0000] <Hixie>
no worries

[10:00:02.0000] <gsnedders>
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ — is that meant to happen?

[10:00:03.0000] <gsnedders>
:P

[10:00:04.0000] <Hixie>
that's the error it now returns

[10:01:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham is awesome.

[10:01:01.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: :-p

[10:01:02.0000] <Hixie>
i don't understand the error log though

[10:02:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: BTW, if you want to email me about the patch for whatever reason it is easier to use my email address @hoppipolla

[10:03:00.0000] <jgraham>
(over the weekend)

[10:03:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: Re: r2812, is the violation of ECMAScript a result of following UTS22?

[10:04:00.0000] <Hixie>
no, unrelated changes

[10:04:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: That was unclear from the commit message

[10:05:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Esp. the use of the word "Trade"

[10:05:01.0000] <Hixie>
gsnedders: yeah

[10:05:02.0000] <Hixie>
i know

[10:05:03.0000] <gsnedders>
/me slaps Hixie

[10:05:04.0000] <Hixie>
i was having issues with anolis at the time

[10:05:05.0000] <Hixie>
still am :-)

[10:05:06.0000] <Hixie>
can you explain what that message meas?

[10:05:07.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: No, you were having with jgraham's web service, not Anolis :)

[10:06:00.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: Does http://pimpmyspec.net/aquarium.py/output?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whatwg.org%2Fspecs%2Fweb-apps%2Fcurrent-work%2Fsource&process_toc=on&process_xref=on&process_sub=on&newline_char=LF&tab_char=SPACE&min_depth=2&max_depth=6&w3c_compat_xref_a_placement=on&parser=lxml&serializer=html5lib&inject_meta_charset=on&omit_optional_tags=on&use_best_quote_char=on&encoding=utf-8 work for you? Then does it still work if you use the whatwg version of the sou

[10:07:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: Did we really have so many W3C compat options on by default before?

[10:07:01.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: I took the defaults from the command line version defaults, I thought

[10:07:02.0000] <gsnedders>
By default they are all off

[10:07:03.0000] <jgraham>
They are not what HTML 5 was using

[10:07:04.0000] <gsnedders>
HTML 5 only uses "W3C compatible cross-reference anchor placement"

[10:07:05.0000] <jgraham>
Oh well maybe I am an idiot then

[10:08:00.0000] <jgraham>
Or the js messes something up

[10:08:01.0000] <jgraham>
Which is still my fault

[10:08:02.0000] <annevk42>
for everyone in Europe, it's sort of time to go out right now :)

[10:08:03.0000] <annevk42>
or at least get food and prepare

[10:09:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me wonders what annevk42 is preparing for

[10:09:01.0000] <jgraham>
Vogons?

[10:09:02.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: Also, you probably want to hide all the html5lib serialization options when the serializer is not html5lib

[10:09:03.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: those options seem to work. i'll figure out how to get the usual ones to work.

[10:10:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: They were all disabled before but my code didn't like the change to a dropdown and I thought I should do some real work rather than rewrite it

[10:10:01.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: heh

[10:10:02.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: Is the code in any sort of repo?

[10:11:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: http://hg.hoppipolla.co.uk/hgwebdir.cgi/aquarium/

[10:11:01.0000] <jgraham>
But it looks like I need to hg ci]

[10:11:02.0000] <jgraham>
Or move my changes from the live copy over or something

[10:11:03.0000] <jgraham>
which I will do tommorrow

[10:12:00.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: If you let me know exactly which options are b0rked I will try and fix in the morning

[10:12:01.0000] <jgraham>
/me really is going

[10:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: thanks

[10:15:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me would hack away at it this weekend if it weren't for looming coursework deadlines

[10:16:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me really ought to have started on more of the coursework earlier in the (academic) year

[10:16:01.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: the problem was i wasn't including all the arguments and so you had no serialiser/parser picked out and crashed instead

[10:17:00.0000] <gsnedders>
http://pimpmyspec.net/aquarium.py/output?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whatwg.org%2Fspecs%2Fweb-apps%2Fcurrent-work%2Fsource&w3c_compat_xref_a_placement=on&parser=lxml&serializer=html5lib&inject_meta_charset=off&omit_optional_tags=off&encoding=us-ascii

[10:17:01.0000] <gsnedders>
That's probably closer to what you had before

[10:19:00.0000] <gsnedders>
http://pimpmyspec.net/aquarium.py/output?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whatwg.org%2Fspecs%2Fweb-apps%2Fcurrent-work%2Fsource&w3c_compat_xref_a_placement=on&parser=lxml&serializer=html5lib&encoding=us-ascii

[10:19:01.0000] <gsnedders>
That's I think what you want.

[10:19:02.0000] <Hixie>
i set parser to html5lib and it crashed again, weird

[10:20:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me thinks jgraham should stick to the astrophysics

[10:20:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me ducks

[10:20:02.0000] <Hixie>
the error log is uniquely usless

[10:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh the error log has the error in a comment

[10:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
much more useful

[10:24:02.0000] <Hixie>
UndefinedError: HTTPError() has no member named "reason"

[10:26:00.0000] <Philip`>
I guess it's an unreasonable error

[10:33:00.0000] <Hixie>
it seems using html5lib as the parser is all that is needed to fail

[10:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
that, and the script doesn't handle missing parameters or bogus parameters in a helpful way at all

[10:42:00.0000] <dglazkov>
Hixie!!!

[10:42:01.0000] <dglazkov>
have a sec?

[10:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
sure

[10:45:00.0000] <dglazkov>
so get spammed by the sysbot to update my status

[10:46:00.0000] <dglazkov>
I give up: I want do update my status

[10:46:01.0000] <dglazkov>
it's a very persistent little sysbot

[10:47:00.0000] <Hixie>
?

[10:47:01.0000] <Hixie>
"sysbot"?

[10:47:02.0000] <Hixie>
status?

[10:47:03.0000] <dglazkov>
status in HTML WG as invited expert.

[10:47:04.0000] <Hixie>
ah that has nothing to do with me

[10:47:05.0000] <dglazkov>
excellent

[10:47:06.0000] <dglazkov>
who do I bug?

[10:47:07.0000] <Hixie>
you want DanC in #htmlwg on irc.w3.org port 6665

[10:47:08.0000] <krijnh>
It has got to do with Hixie though, cause he invited us all to the HTML WG party :)

[10:47:09.0000] <Philip`>
#html-wg

[10:48:00.0000] <dglazkov>
very helpful!

[10:48:01.0000] <dglazkov>
thanks

[10:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
er, what Philip` said

[10:49:01.0000] <Hixie>
my bad

[11:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
well you gotta give the bespin guys credit

[11:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
they certainly got canvas to do more than i expected them to

[11:43:00.0000] <inimino>
slick.

[11:46:00.0000] <Philip`>
Bespin guys like Lando?

[11:46:01.0000] <Hixie>
Lando?

[11:46:02.0000] <inimino>
hehe

[11:46:03.0000] <inimino>
Calrissian

[11:47:00.0000] <inimino>
Philip`: https://bespin.mozilla.com/

[11:47:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me is way too tempted to go to sleep

[11:48:00.0000] <Philip`>
inimino: Ah, right

[12:22:00.0000] <annevk42>
Hixie, there is no "simple color" that represents 'transparent', is there?

[13:00:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk42: crap

[13:00:01.0000] <Hixie>
hm

[13:01:00.0000] <Hixie>
how did zcorpan determine that 'transparent' was actually supported?

[13:01:01.0000] <Hixie>
i can't think of a test case that would show this

[15:19:00.0000] <heycam`>
Hixie, checking for it in CSSOM?

[15:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
heycam`: CSSOM wouldn't expose this as far as i can tell

[15:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
heycam`: since 'transparent' is the default

[15:44:00.0000] <heycam`>
but transparent wouldn't be the default if it weren't supported, would it?

[15:47:00.0000] <Philip`>
Wouldn't it be treated as #00a000 if the keyword wasn't supported, or something like that?

[15:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
oooh, good point

[15:48:01.0000] <Philip`>
Compare http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cbody%20bgcolor%3Dtransparent%3E vs http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cbody%20bgcolor%3Dtransparenx%3E

[15:48:02.0000] <Hixie>
indeed

[15:48:03.0000] <Hixie>
ok

[15:48:04.0000] <Philip`>
In IE6, the former looks white, the latter looks #0000e0

[15:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
so can anyone think of a way in which browsers differe in their handling of <body bgcolor=""> (empty) and <body bgcolor="transparent">?

[15:51:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cstyle%3Ehtml%7Bbackground%3Ablue%7D%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%20bgcolor%3D%22transparent%22%3E

[15:51:01.0000] <Philip`>
In IE6 it looks white

[15:51:02.0000] <Philip`>
(whereas bgcolor="" looks blue)

[15:54:00.0000] <Hixie>
well making it map to body { background: transparent; } isn't going to solve that problem...

[15:57:00.0000] <Philip`>
I see quite a number of pages with bgcolor=transparent

[15:58:00.0000] <Philip`>
mostly on table elements, not body

[15:58:01.0000] <Philip`>
but http://windows.radified.com/ has it on body

[15:58:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Can someone try emailing me⊙gc?


2009-02-14
[16:09:00.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: can you find a difference between bgcolor="" and bgcolor="Transparent" on <table>?

[16:09:01.0000] <Hixie>
the bgcolor=transparent on that site seems useless

[16:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me risks getting even more hated by the rdf community

[16:15:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cstyle%3Etr%7Bbackground%3Ayellow%7D%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%20bgcolor%3Dblue%3E%0D%0A%3Ctable%3E%3Ctr%3E%3Ctd%20bgcolor%3D%22%22%3EA%3Ctd%20bgcolor%3Dtransparent%3EB%3C%2Ftable%3E

[16:15:01.0000] <Philip`>
That's not table, but it's close :-)

[16:15:02.0000] <gsnedders>
/me throws Hixie some hatred

[16:20:00.0000] <Philip`>
(http://philip.html5.org/data/bgcolor-transparent.txt is all the bgcolor="transparent"s that I see)

[16:20:01.0000] <Philip`>
(and http://philip.html5.org/data/bgcolors.txt is counts of total occurrences of values)

[16:21:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me sees a bgcolor="#(hex code here)"

[16:21:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: Can you get the latter list ignoring all conforming values

[16:22:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: I don't know what's conforming

[16:22:01.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: but you could easily work it out and filter the list yourself :-)

[16:22:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: See: HTML 5

[16:22:03.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: No, I'm lazy.

[16:22:04.0000] <gsnedders>
:)

[16:22:05.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Me too :-p

[16:22:06.0000] <gsnedders>
I know :P

[16:22:07.0000] <gsnedders>
I knew it was in vain.

[16:23:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hmm, maybe I should have sorted the bgcolor list in a proper ordering rather than whatever fancy English collation it's doing by default

[16:24:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me uploads a new version of bgcolors.txt, now with all the #s grouped together, which is much more sensible

[16:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: what does IE do with that test case?

[16:28:00.0000] <gsnedders>
A double-backflip while whistling the Star Spangled Banner?

[16:28:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me hopes that's the correct reference

[16:28:02.0000] <Hixie>
btw the live dom viewer now has a "save" button that gives you a "short" url

[16:28:03.0000] <Hixie>
feel free to use it

[16:29:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: The A cell has a yellow background, the B cell has a blue background (i.e. matching the body background)

[16:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh lordy

[16:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
that's... uh... non-trivial to emulate

[16:30:02.0000] <Hixie>
luckily the other browsers don't do it...

[16:31:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: If I use the short URLs, and then your server crashes or is shut down and the short URL database is lost, then the whole future of humanity will be denied the knowledge of my tests

[16:31:01.0000] <Hixie>
it's true

[16:32:00.0000] <Hixie>
i can expose the database if you like... :-)

[16:32:01.0000] <Philip`>
whereas if I paste the long URL into IRC then it'll be copied into lots of people's private logs, and the web logs and caches and suchlike

[16:32:02.0000] <Philip`>
thus saving our grandchildren from such deprivation of knowledge

[16:32:03.0000] <Hixie>
fair enough :-)

[16:33:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: Nah, exposing it would probably just be a waste of time :-p

[17:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: if you still have IE open, do you see anything indicating that it treats text="transparent" or link="transparent" on <body> any different than ""?

[17:16:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: Yes

[17:16:01.0000] <Philip`>
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cstyle%3Ehtml%7Bcolor%3Ared%7D%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%20text%3Dtransparent%3ETest - text is black

[17:17:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cstyle%3Ehtml%7Bcolor%3Ared%7D%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%20text%3D''%3ETest - text is red

[17:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
so what, IE uses "transparent" as a magic keyword that just does something random? :-/

[17:19:00.0000] <Hixie>
screw it, i'm just gonna make "transparent" and "" do the same thing, none of the other browsers do these crazy things

[17:42:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: Sounds reasonable :-)

[17:43:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me finds that his wireless router has apparently vanished so he can no longer access the internet, and therefore goes to bed

[01:38:00.0000] <annevk42>
http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2821&to=2822 :)

[02:14:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me will fix pms.net now

[02:14:01.0000] <jgraham>
He said hopefully

[02:32:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me totally can't get pimpmyspec.net to crash by removing parameters

[02:45:00.0000] <jgraham>
Where ia Philip` when you want something broken?

[02:49:00.0000] <Philip`>
In bed

[03:14:00.0000] <gsnedders>
In the real world, what SVG DOCTYPE should I use?

[03:16:00.0000] <yecril71>
Reminder: MSIE allows src="about:..." for doc="..."

[03:32:00.0000] <hsivonen>
gsnedders: none

[03:32:01.0000] <hsivonen>
gsnedders: DTDlessness FTW!

[04:13:00.0000] <gsnedders>
hsivonen: k

[04:14:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Use the SVG5 doctype, <!DOCTYPE svg>

[04:14:01.0000] <gsnedders>
:D

[04:15:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: BTW the only change I made to stop pms.net with html5lib was in anolis code

[04:16:00.0000] <jgraham>
Although I guess I might have broken it...

[04:16:01.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: patches welcome :)

[04:16:02.0000] <jgraham>
*crashing

[04:16:03.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: Shall I just make my repo of anolis public so that you can oull changes at your lesiure?

[04:17:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: that would be an easier solution :)

[04:17:01.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: Provided you actually commit to it

[04:17:02.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: Have you commited your changes to the web ui yet?

[04:20:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: http://hg.hoppipolla.co.uk/hgwebdir.cgi/anolis/

[04:20:01.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: Yes, I committed the changes but all as one big bundle

[04:35:00.0000] <heycam`>
gsnedders, recommended is not to use a doctype

[04:35:01.0000] <heycam`>
/me sleeps

[04:46:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me found a MUST-level inpompatibility between XHTML2 and HTML5: fragment id support

[04:48:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me finds this gem in XHTML2: "Note that this specification does not generally specify the behavior of conforming implementations when presented with non-conforming documents. This is either defined by an underlying specification (e.g., [XML]) or left to the implementor."

[04:58:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me wonders if there is a way to download all the flickr api documentation at once

[04:59:00.0000] <Philip`>
wget -R?

[05:11:00.0000] <jgraham>
Hmm not sure what I did there

[05:30:00.0000] <gsnedders>
You non-UTF-8'd us!

[05:32:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Oh dear. > 1200 unread emails.

[05:32:01.0000] <gsnedders>
I need to catch up.

[05:40:00.0000] <jgraham>
"Wrong question, developers as we see them today will be an anachronism, 

[05:40:01.0000] <jgraham>
that's part of the fun.

[05:40:02.0000] <jgraham>
"

[05:40:03.0000] <jgraham>
And people wonder why there is skepticism about RDF(a)

[05:41:00.0000] <jgraham>
(that's from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Feb/0073.html btw)

[05:50:00.0000] <hsivonen>
is <video> already deployed on Wikipedia somewere in such a way that it can be demoed with Firefox 3.1 today?

[05:52:00.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: It seems like there are some videos, then you have to go to More... and Native Browser Support

[05:53:00.0000] <jgraham>
so it's maybe not the best demo)

[05:53:01.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: URL?

[05:54:00.0000] <jgraham>
]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Creation_and_usage_of_media_files#Video has some examples

[05:54:01.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: thanks

[05:55:00.0000] <hsivonen>
wtf? does Wikipedia *prefer* QuickTime over native support?

[05:57:00.0000] <jgraham>
Yeah, the order seems to be Java->Quicktime->native->stills. I think there was some discussion of this but I don't recall what the reason was

[05:58:00.0000] <hsivonen>
that makes no sense. shouldn't it be Native, QuickTime, Java, Stills in order to make sense?

[06:00:00.0000] <jgraham>
That's what I would pick but there we go

[06:00:01.0000] <jgraham>
/me decides it is time for food

[06:12:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I wonder if there's a simple way to find a clip with more action on wikipedia

[06:18:00.0000] <Philip`>
You could make one and then upload it to Wikipedia

[06:23:00.0000] <hsivonen>
is the Octopus clip howcome demoed on any real wikipedia page now?

[07:18:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me ended up using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundhog

[10:42:00.0000] <gsnedders>
selector specificity can be rather annoying

[10:48:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Just use !important and then it won't be a problem

[10:49:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: The problem is that breaks other stuff :P

[10:51:00.0000] <Dashiva>
We need !very-important

[10:52:00.0000] <gsnedders>
:P

[11:07:00.0000] <takkaria>
very-important isn't very extensible

[11:07:01.0000] <takkaria>
it should be !important(x)

[11:07:02.0000] <takkaria>
where x is an integer

[11:07:03.0000] <takkaria>
and then if x == "inf", it's the most important

[11:21:00.0000] <Dashiva>
takkaria: It's very extensible, quite literally. You extend it by adding another very :P

[11:33:00.0000] <gsnedders>
takkaria: What about inf+1?

[11:50:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Fortunately CSS doesn't allow arithmetic, so that case won't occur

[11:55:00.0000] <Dashiva>
expressions

[11:57:00.0000] <Philip`>
?

[11:58:00.0000] <Dashiva>
IE's css expressions allow it

[12:04:00.0000] <Philip`>
Ah

[12:04:01.0000] <Philip`>
In that case Infinity+1 == Infinity so there's no problem

[12:15:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I see your namesake is aiming for a new high score in process ping pong

[12:21:00.0000] <Philip`>
Where abouts is that happening?

[12:22:00.0000] <Dashiva>
A few days ago on public-html

[12:22:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Dashiva: Dude, get with the times.

[12:22:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Dashiva: That was _days_ ago.

[12:22:03.0000] <Philip`>
Oh, you can't expect me to remember back that far

[12:22:04.0000] <Philip`>
I don't even remember what I was doing this morning

[12:22:05.0000] <Dashiva>
I'm having trouble keeping up with the traffic volume on public-html

[12:22:06.0000] <Dashiva>
(Not really, but I forget to check it)

[12:24:00.0000] <Philip`>
I think you should start a giant thread on the mailing list discussing the potential for using new communication technologies because of the large amount of traffic on the mailing list

[12:24:01.0000] <Philip`>
Also you should discuss whether the charter allows us to use new communication technologies instead of the list

[12:24:02.0000] <Dashiva>
Is opera.com down for everyone or just me? downforeveryoneorjustme.com isn't being helpful.

[12:25:00.0000] <Philip`>
Dashiva: It's either down or very slow for me

[12:25:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Thanks

[12:41:00.0000] <Dashiva>
This is somewhat disturbing: http://www.duelinganalogs.com/posting/1233936531/

[13:53:00.0000] <Dashiva>
"I wrote something a while back that said, I don’t have to justify wanting RDFa, because RDF is, to me, a goal, not a solution."

[13:53:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Can you even say that with a straight face?

[13:54:00.0000] <jcranmer>
/me shudders at hearing RDF

[13:54:01.0000] <jcranmer>
gut reaction

[13:55:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Ignore that it mentions RDFa for now

[13:55:01.0000] <Dashiva>
"I don't have to justify X, because X is a goal to me."

[13:55:02.0000] <jcranmer>
or, in short, "I don't have to justify wanting it because I want it"

[13:57:00.0000] <Philip`>
It seems quite reasonable to want something without justifying it, e.g. I might want chocolate cake for no particular reason; but it's not reasonable to expect anyone else to expend any effort to help you get that, if you don't try to demonstrate why their effort will be worthwhile


2009-02-15
[19:34:00.0000] <heycam>
Hixie, in "8.2.1 Overview of the parsing model' it says that the tree construction stage is semantic analysis

[19:34:01.0000] <heycam>
to me that sounds more like syntactic analysis

[19:47:00.0000] <heycam>
"The insertion mode is a flag that controls the primary operation of the tree construction stage."  i don't think it should be called a flag, since it has more than two states.

[20:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
heycam: send mail

[20:59:01.0000] <Hixie>
right now i'm between rdf and iframes

[20:59:02.0000] <heycam>
sounds fun...

[20:59:03.0000] <Hixie>
and the parser is far from my mind :-)

[01:32:00.0000] <yorick>
scrollbars on elements with draagable='true' have an unfortunate effect :/

[05:49:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Feb/0092.html - "If only there were a way for Google to use their own nicely scoped vocabulary, they wouldn't [ever convince any other search engines to use the same scoped name because it'll say "google" in it, so everyone will fragment into their own namespaces and it'll be a nightmare for authors who just want a simple feature that works everywhere]"

[07:37:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me wonders what he should do next (academic) year

[07:37:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Go to uni, or take a gap year…

[08:00:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Anyone use Illustrator here?

[08:12:00.0000] <takkaria>
gsnedders: gap year

[08:16:00.0000] <gsnedders>
I have an SVG image, and I need to resize the viewbox so it matches up exactly with the content

[08:17:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me suggests opening it in an SVG editor, and clicking the button that makes it shrink the viewbox

[08:18:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me can't find that button in Illustrator

[08:20:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me suggests opening it in another SVG editor, and clicking the button that makes it shrink the viewbox

[08:22:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me doesn't have another SVG editor

[08:22:01.0000] <Philip`>
http://www.inkscape.org/

[08:40:00.0000] <gsnedders>
\includegraphics[width=\linewidth]{Lens1.pdf} — that gives overful hbox, which makes no sense, because surely it shouldn't overflow when the width is that of the line?

[08:43:00.0000] <Philip`>
Who cares about overfull hboxes? Just check that it looks right in the PDF :-)

[08:43:01.0000] <gsnedders>
It doesn't. The graphic is wider than the text.

[08:43:02.0000] <Philip`>
In that case, just set [width=5in] or whatever until it looks right :-)

[08:44:00.0000] <gsnedders>
But \linewidth surely should work!

[08:45:00.0000] <Philip`>
If you want to go with the solution that should work rather than the solution that does work, that's your loss :-p

[08:45:01.0000] <gsnedders>
:P

[08:46:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Also: InkScape won't start

[08:48:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: Finally started, now, which button do I press?

[08:49:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Uh, I don't know

[08:51:00.0000] <gsnedders>
You're useful :\

[08:51:01.0000] <Philip`>
I suppose File -> Document Properties -> Fit page to selection should work in theory

[08:52:00.0000] <gsnedders>
I don't get any menus.

[08:52:01.0000] <Philip`>
and it works in practice on one out of two files I tested

[08:52:02.0000] <Philip`>
Uh, no menus?

[08:53:00.0000] <Philip`>
Not even at the top of the application window?

[08:53:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Installing Inkscape has fucked up X

[08:53:02.0000] <Philip`>
That probably shouldn't happen

[08:54:00.0000] <Philip`>
(You could use shift+ctrl+D instead of the menu)

[08:55:00.0000] <Philip`>
(except maybe it's not ctrl on weird OSes)

[08:55:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me manages to unfuck X

[08:57:00.0000] <gsnedders>
That shrinks the selection by the same amount too

[08:58:00.0000] <Philip`>
It did that in one of the files I tested, but not the other one :-/

[08:59:00.0000] <Philip`>
At least it should probably tell you how many pixels the shrunk document is, which saves you two variables if you edit the viewbox by hand and try to guess what the values should be

[09:00:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders why it sometimes shrinks the document...

[09:00:01.0000] <gsnedders>
@viewBox

[09:00:02.0000] <gsnedders>
If there is an @viewBox, it shrinks the doc

[09:01:00.0000] <Philip`>
Ah

[09:01:01.0000] <MikeSmith>
sorry, to interrupt, but anybody know if there's a way to search mozilla-central checkins per-developer/committer?

[09:01:02.0000] <MikeSmith>
+1 to gsnedders for usage of the work "unfuck", btw

[09:02:00.0000] <gsnedders>
w00t

[09:02:01.0000] <gsnedders>
It works!

[09:04:00.0000] <Philip`>
Oh, how dull

[09:05:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Also, overfull hbox caused by paragraph indent+graphic width

[09:05:01.0000] <gsnedders>
So, \noindent\includegraphics[width=\linewidth]{Lens1.pdf}

[09:05:02.0000] <MikeSmith>
that doesn't look like HTML

[09:05:03.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: You could put the graphic in a \begin{figure} rather than a paragraph

[09:06:00.0000] <gsnedders>
MikeSmith: Who ever said we discussed HTML in here? That's be logical. You're meant to leave that at the door

[09:06:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: That's boring.

[09:06:02.0000] <Philip`>
/me looks at the giant overflowing pile of logic just outside the door, and hopes he'll be able to find his own logic when he goes to retrieve it before heading home

[09:23:00.0000] <gsnedders>
takkaria: A gap year doing what?

[09:24:00.0000] <wilhelm>
I spent mine reading and studying on my own. (c:

[09:24:01.0000] <gsnedders>
wilhelm: But how convincing it that to a university? :)

[09:25:00.0000] <wilhelm>
I never attended one.

[09:26:00.0000] <gsnedders>
wilhelm: See, that's your advantage :)

[09:28:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me wonders whether he could pull off a wilhelm and get hired by Opera :)

[09:29:00.0000] <Philip`>
Do you really want a job rather than another three years of being a lazy student? :-)

[09:31:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: Well, of the places I have offers for, one is a four year degree, and the other a five year degree :)

[09:31:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: Besides, I can take a gap year and end up somewhere nicer :P

[09:32:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: And, y'know, go to uni at a normal age?

[09:32:01.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Oh, uh, I meant three years of being a lazy student interspersed with a year or two of thinking about maybe doing some work

[09:32:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: No, you're still wrong.

[09:32:03.0000] <gsnedders>
:)

[09:32:04.0000] <Philip`>
"normal" is subjective :-)

[09:33:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: Both are MPhys degrees, which is normally in England four years, and in Scotland five.

[09:33:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: (I could, of course, just get a BSc which would be a year shorter)

[09:33:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: But then I wouldn't be a Jedi Master

[09:33:03.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: Sorry, Physics Master

[09:33:04.0000] <Philip`>
Get a PhD and then you wouldn't have to care about BSc vs MPhys :-)

[09:34:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: That means doing real academia, which having a father doing such things has put me off :)

[09:35:00.0000] <Philip`>
It doesn't seem that real to me

[09:37:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Are <pre>foo\nbar</pre> and <pre>foo<br>bar</pre> semantically the same?

[09:43:00.0000] <takkaria>
gap years are good

[09:43:01.0000] <takkaria>
non-gap years are also good

[09:44:00.0000] <takkaria>
if you do a gap year, find something to do.  it doesn't really matter what, but jobs are a popular chat

[09:44:01.0000] <takkaria>
er, choice

[09:44:02.0000] <annevk>
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/13-hcg-minutes.html is interesting regarding the normalization thread, to bad it's fricking Member-only

[09:44:03.0000] <takkaria>
and you get some more money and some experience of the real world, as it were

[09:44:04.0000] <MikeSmith>
hcg is a member-only list, I think

[09:45:00.0000] <gsnedders>
hcg?

[09:45:01.0000] <Philip`>
annevk: Post it to Wikileaks

[09:45:02.0000] <gsnedders>
takkaria: This is an interesting time to try and get a job :)

[09:45:03.0000] <MikeSmith>
anyway, since when does anything interesting happen on the HCG calls?

[09:45:04.0000] <takkaria>
gsnedders: it's always an interesting time to try and get a job :)

[09:46:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
if there's some controversy, I guess maybe I should actually call into them

[09:46:01.0000] <annevk>
there were some comments about actual usage today

[09:46:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Still, what's HCG?

[09:46:03.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Human chorionic gonadotropin

[09:46:04.0000] <wilhelm>
There was some discussion on testing on the last call that was interesting.

[09:46:05.0000] <gsnedders>
/me slaps Philip` 

[09:46:06.0000] <MikeSmith>
gsnedders: Hypertext Coordination Group

[09:46:07.0000] <gsnedders>
MikeSmith: ah

[09:47:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
chairs and team contacts from various groups, including HTML WG, WebApps WG, CSS, SVG, ...

[09:47:01.0000] <gsnedders>
MikeSmith: If they call in :D

[09:48:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
well, the fact that it's at 11pm/12pm on Friday night each week kinda makes it less that ideal 

[09:51:00.0000] <gsnedders>
heh

[09:53:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
gsnedders: you're welcome to call in for me

[09:53:01.0000] <MikeSmith>
in place of me

[09:53:02.0000] <MikeSmith>
just pretend you're really tired, and drunk

[09:53:03.0000] <MikeSmith>
and belligerent

[09:53:04.0000] <gsnedders>
MikeSmith: But I'm not a member, so I can't get at anything related to it. Nor do I intend to :P

[09:53:05.0000] <MikeSmith>
nobody will notice the differenc

[09:54:00.0000] <gsnedders>
:D

[09:55:00.0000] <TheOtherMikeSmit>
Damnot!

[09:55:01.0000] <TheOtherMikeSmit>
Nick is too long :\

[09:55:02.0000] <MikeTMSmith>
This'll work!

[09:56:00.0000] <MikeTMSmith>
No, where's that fucktard gone :)

[09:59:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
what the hell kind of expression is "Damnot"?

[09:59:01.0000] <gsnedders>
It's damnit, just spelt wrong.

[09:59:02.0000] <gsnedders>
I mean, I'm drunk and can't type :)

[09:59:03.0000] <jcranmer>
I always preferred dammit over damnit

[10:00:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
goddammit even better

[10:00:01.0000] <Philip`>
I like to dam my nits

[10:00:02.0000] <gsnedders>
What about dangnamit?

[10:00:03.0000] <jcranmer>
damn it - 1 definition - Another example of how idiots spell "dammit."

[10:01:00.0000] <jcranmer>
gsnedders: I've always had dang-nab-it

[10:01:01.0000] <annevk>
gsnedders, your draft points to /tr/html/ which points to xhtml1

[10:01:02.0000] <gsnedders>
annevk: I know, I noticed that myself shortly after sending

[10:01:03.0000] <gsnedders>
annevk: I've been working on physics project ever since I sent that email

[10:35:00.0000] <jruderman>
i thought it was dag-nab-it

[10:37:00.0000] <jcranmer>
jruderman: dang-nab-it, don't contradict me!

[10:37:01.0000] <jruderman>
hehe

[10:42:00.0000] <Philip`>
The OED only has "dagnabbit, dagnabit"

[10:42:01.0000] <Philip`>
though it also has "dang"

[13:52:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me could do with an SVG version of the visible light spectrum

[13:55:00.0000] <jcranmer>
… too low frequency |*| too high frequency …, where * is a red-orange-yellow-green-blue-violet gradient that's too small to see <-- ascii art version

[13:56:00.0000] <gsnedders>
That isn't quite SVG, though

[13:56:01.0000] <gsnedders>
(Oh, and sorry for making you feel old, again)

[13:57:00.0000] <jcranmer>
/me shakes his cane at gsnedders 

[13:57:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me wonders if jcranmer is a dom…

[13:57:02.0000] <gsnedders>
/me wonders why else jcranmer might have that cane

[13:58:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Why SVG?

[13:59:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: I need some good open vector format

[13:59:01.0000] <jcranmer>
VML?

[13:59:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: That is easily editable

[13:59:03.0000] <gsnedders>
jcranmer: I don't have anything that can read VML, so no.

[13:59:04.0000] <jcranmer>
Microsoft Office?

[13:59:05.0000] <gsnedders>
OK, I guess I do.

[14:00:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: I think the typically unchanging physical nature of the visible light spectrum should mean you won't really have to edit it

[14:00:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: It's my need to recontextualize it

[15:30:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me should really update the photo he uses of him online

[15:36:00.0000] <Philip`>
Replace it with an SVG version


2009-02-16
[16:03:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I'm sure someone, somewhere made an image that creatres SVG images by converting each pixel into a 1x1 quad

[16:03:01.0000] <Dashiva>
*made a program

[23:10:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Any suggestions of which <canvas>-based game I should demo for the maximal "wow" effect?

[23:14:00.0000] <roc>
maybe whatever the latest Wolf3D/DOOM one is

[23:16:00.0000] <heycam>
/me remembers running along the wall, pressing Enter, hoping to find secret doors

[23:16:01.0000] <roc>
now we can create a Greasemonkey script for that

[23:21:00.0000] <heycam>
heh

[23:50:00.0000] <hsivonen>
is this the state of the art in DOOM: http://www.benjoffe.com/code/demos/canvascape/textures

[23:53:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me finds http://www.benjoffe.com/code/demos/canvascape/textures

[00:07:00.0000] <annevk>
hmm, rel=canonical

[00:07:01.0000] <annevk>
didn't Atom already have something like that?

[00:08:00.0000] <gavin_>
rel=self

[00:10:00.0000] <annevk>
yeah

[00:11:00.0000] <annevk>
so much for developing new features in the open

[00:29:00.0000] <roc>
annevk: who?

[00:30:00.0000] <gavin_>
google

[00:30:01.0000] <gavin_>
http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2009/02/specify-your-canonical.html

[00:35:00.0000] <roc>
why are they using Firefox 2 in their screenshots?

[00:41:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/

[00:50:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: sorry, I couldn't figure out how to shoot the other guys in Canvex, so I used nihilogic's wolfenstein

[00:51:00.0000] <hsivonen>
you gotta shoot in a demo involving and FPS!

[00:51:01.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: Canvex is an intentionally non-violent game

[00:51:02.0000] <Philip`>
Also, I never bothered implementing weapons or gameplay logic

[02:02:00.0000] <yecril71>
Even if explicit dependencies were allowed, the authors are unlikely to get it right.

[02:02:01.0000] <yecril71>
And it cannot be validated that the script does not rely on the stylesheet.

[02:03:00.0000] <yecril71>
So browser vendors will have to decide whether they prefer accuracy over efficiency.

[02:04:00.0000] <yecril71>
I think they will choose accuracy, meaning that they will have to ignore explicit dependencies.

[02:04:01.0000] <yecril71>
Houk.

[02:12:00.0000] <annevk>
browsers could just run the script and block it when they encounter a dependency

[02:14:00.0000] <jgraham>
annevk: Isn't that supposed to be quite difficult?

[02:16:00.0000] <Philip`>
particularly when the user or other scripts could interact with the document while it's blocked inside a script during loading

[04:52:00.0000] <Philip`>
With the exciting discussion about normalising strings, did anyone already point out that http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210 defines "match" saying "processors may normalize such characters to some canonical form", whereas the next version seemingly removes that language?

[04:54:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: I don't recall anyone pointing that out.

[04:56:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://www.w3.org/XML/xml-19980210-errata#E85

[05:09:00.0000] <Lachy>
while I don't recall that point being explicitly raised, I believe it was pointed out that it would cause interop problems with having different implementations disagreeing about well-formedness

[05:12:00.0000] <hsivonen>
are there easy-to-install Mac OS X binaries of thusnelda available?

[05:23:00.0000] <Lachy>
what is thusnelda?

[05:25:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=thusnelda

[05:25:01.0000] <Lachy>
I just googled it

[05:25:02.0000] <hsivonen>
fwiw, I already googled, found source, not OS X binaries

[05:25:03.0000] <Lachy>
it's a theora encoder, apparently

[05:27:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: But that just tells me that Thusnelda was the daughter of the Cheruscan prince Segestes

[05:28:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Move your eyes downards a bit

[05:28:01.0000] <Philip`>
s//w/

[05:29:00.0000] <jgraham>
Holy Crap! There's more than one result on Google? Who knew?

[05:31:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: You could be forgiven for not noticing, if you browse the web at 320x240 with large fonts and don't know how to use scrollbars

[05:31:01.0000] <jgraham>
(actually the top result on Google isn't right that often. It's more like there's no point in having more than one page of results because people look at the second page so rarely)

[05:32:00.0000] <hsivonen>
more XML errors coming soon to a browser near you: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=174351

[05:33:00.0000] <hsivonen>
It's amusing to see what kind of Gecko bugs I (and annevk) filed circa 2002

[05:36:00.0000] <Philip`>
"With this patch applied it is no longer possible to view the following URL: http://wiki.mozilla-russia.org/index.php/Mozilla%20Firefox" - sounds like a highly beneficial patch

[06:01:00.0000] <hsivonen>
http://realtech.burningbird.net/comment/reply/604/1144

[06:08:00.0000] <Lachy>
LOL

[06:08:01.0000] <hsivonen>
/me is surprised to see Shelley Powers use a pharse like " most pedantic specification ever derived by man"

[06:08:02.0000] <hsivonen>
(the "by man" part)

[06:09:00.0000] <Lachy>
that seems like something Mr Last Week would normally have commented on. I wonder what's taking him so long

[06:11:00.0000] <annevk>
didn't he already?

[06:11:01.0000] <annevk>
http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/2009/02/we-hear-you-sister.html ?

[06:12:00.0000] <Lachy>
annevk, no, I meant the comment hsivonen linked to about the spec writing being an asshole

[06:13:00.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, what is special about that part?

[06:14:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: she has a history of pointing out sexism, and expressions like "by man" where 'man' means humans in general are generally frowned upon by English-language feminists

[06:21:00.0000] <annevk>
oh, didn't know that

[06:35:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I fail to understand the utility of http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6525

[06:37:00.0000] <hendry>
why is the whatwg twitter account printing garbage out like iilomijokud0?

[06:37:01.0000] <hsivonen>
hendry: anyone can update the status

[06:42:00.0000] <hendry>
hsivonen: eh? i assumed it would only be updated by the cabal :)

[06:43:00.0000] <Philip`>
hendry: "Update status" on http://www.whatwg.org/

[06:49:00.0000] <hendry>
seems a little too ripe for abuse.

[06:49:01.0000] <Lachy>
hendry, it seems to get relatively little abuse

[06:50:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me looks for an anonymous proxy from which he can abuse it

[06:50:01.0000] <Lachy>
although given that all legitimate updates do seem to come from Hixie anyway, there seems to be little practical benefit of having it open.

[06:51:00.0000] <hendry>
Lachy: why is that? I had a feedback form that just got nuts over a month.

[06:52:00.0000] <Lachy>
I don't know why. I'm only commenting based on my observation of the amount of garbage compared with legitimate messages

[06:53:00.0000] <Philip`>
Someone needs to set the status to "HTML5: Remove tag soup support; XML is the future. http://tinyurl.com/(...)" and link it to a fake version of the (X)HTML5 Tracking page with the appropriate patch

[06:53:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Link the HTML6 blog post? :)

[06:54:00.0000] <Philip`>
Linking to a blog would make it obvious that it's not one of the usual automatic status updates

[06:54:01.0000] <hsivonen>
lots of posts here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa/2009Feb/

[06:55:00.0000] <Lachy>
Philip`, that sounds like a good idea for an April fools joke in about 6 weeks

[06:55:01.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: But it's a bad idea now that I've revealed it here :-(

[06:55:02.0000] <hsivonen>
I wonder if Brad Neuberg's suggestion was serious or a joke based on Really Simple Syndication removing RDF: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa/2009Feb/0003.html

[06:56:00.0000] <Lachy>
it's alright. No-one reads the logs here anyway :-)

[06:57:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Except our friend

[06:58:00.0000] <Lachy>
do you mean Mr Last Week?

[06:59:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Yes

[06:59:01.0000] <Lachy>
I wouldn't really consider him a friend. But I suspect he's actually hanging out in the channel himself, rather than just reading the logs

[07:01:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me tries to look entirely not suspicious

[07:04:00.0000] <Lachy>
/me 's no. 1 suspect for the identity of Mr Last week is now Philip` for looking suspicious

[07:07:00.0000] <Philip`>
Whoops, maybe I shouldn't have said anything

[07:10:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me really likes having a single XML file listing all the attribute names/values from 130K pages, which he can just grep through

[07:11:00.0000] <Lachy>
Philip`, well, you are also one of the few members of the cabal who isn't regularly picked on by Mr Last Week ;-)

[07:11:01.0000] <Philip`>
That's because I'm just too awesome

[07:11:02.0000] <Dashiva>
Philip already has one alter ego (the other Philip) so there is a precedent

[07:13:00.0000] <hsivonen>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Feb/0117.html

[07:15:00.0000] <Lachy>
ah, right. It's all starting to add up now. On one hand, he's 1337 haxor doing a PhD, and on the other, he's a retired web developer/bureaucracy troll

[07:16:00.0000] <Philip`>
If I was going to have an alter ego, would I really choose one with the same name as me? That's really quite unsubtle

[07:17:00.0000] <Dashiva>
On the contrary, it's so unsubtle nobody would suspect it (except me)

[07:19:00.0000] <Philip`>
Sure, but I'd know you'd see through my plan to choose an alter ego with the same name as me so that I could argue it's implausible I'd do something so unsubtle, so clearly I would have chosen a different name to avoid this eventuality

[07:20:00.0000] <Dashiva>
And that's the clincher

[07:20:01.0000] <Dashiva>
You did choose a different name, Mr. Last Week, and you _also_ kept the original one

[07:21:00.0000] <Dashiva>
This way (you thought) you would keep at least one of them if the other was unmasked

[07:23:00.0000] <Philip`>
Grrr, meddling kids

[08:28:00.0000] <yorick>
I'd like the drag&drop api to have some kind of "unsecure" prop, that makes you able to access the data on a dragover event

[08:28:01.0000] <yorick>
so I can change the cursor when dragging over something that can't be dropped there

[08:53:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me suggests that if one is working on a large informally-organised project for which there is even a slight possibility one might eventually decide to relicense it as open source, it's a pretty good idea to get everyone to agree to that from the start, or at least to maintain a list of contributors and contact details so you can ask them later if they're okay with it

[08:54:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me is, on a somewhat related note, looking through an SVN repository with about seven thousand revisions and 75 committers to work out who's actually contributed anything significant

[09:05:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: If you just had the foresight to tag all the data with RDF then you could point your Semantic Web tools at the repository, get a list of the committers, the significance of their changes and, by interacting with the extensive network of RDF data on the web locate the contributer's current email address position on open source and favourite brand of beer (the last being so that you could get any dissenters drunk enough to agree to relicensin

[09:06:00.0000] <jcranmer>
Philip`: only 7K revisions

[09:06:01.0000] <jcranmer>
?

[09:06:02.0000] <Philip`>
jcranmer: 6669

[09:07:00.0000] <jcranmer>
/me notes that mozilla-central is over 25K now

[09:07:01.0000] <Philip`>
Oops

[09:07:02.0000] <Philip`>
6674

[09:07:03.0000] <jcranmer>
24990 when I pulled it on friday

[09:07:04.0000] <Philip`>
jcranmer: This project isn't anywhere near as large as Mozilla :-)

[09:07:05.0000] <Philip`>
but it's large enough to be a bit of a headache to deal with

[09:07:06.0000] <jcranmer>
actually, I guess it was Saturday

[09:09:00.0000] <Philip`>
(Most people joined the project, made a handful of changes, and then vanished)

[09:10:00.0000] <Philip`>
(and a few people made loads of changes over loads of years, and then went to university and didn't have any more time but some are still kind of hanging around trying to stop the project dying)

[09:10:01.0000] <jcranmer>
which project?

[09:10:02.0000] <Philip`>
Some RTS game thing

[13:04:00.0000] <roc_>
grrr

[13:04:01.0000] <roc>
looks like I have to subscribe to public-html

[13:04:02.0000] <roc>
/me girds loins

[13:05:00.0000] <Dashiva>
You can camp the archive page instead 

[13:06:00.0000] <annevk>
/me would welcome roc; the more sensible people write to public-html, the less I have to :p

[13:06:01.0000] <roc>
Dashiva: no, I may need to contribute

[13:06:02.0000] <Dashiva>
That's still possible

[13:06:03.0000] <roc>
besides I'd rather have it in gmail so I can kill threads etc

[13:08:00.0000] <gsnedders>
That means having time to actually deal with more emails coming in.

[13:09:00.0000] <roc>
it's not much time, but yes, that's why I've tried to avoid this step

[13:09:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me made the mistake of subscribing when he had vastly more time

[13:09:02.0000] <Hixie>
roc: what do you want to contribute to?

[13:09:03.0000] <Hixie>
/me wonders if he missed a productive thread recently

[13:09:04.0000] <gsnedders>
productivity? peh!

[13:10:00.0000] <roc>
I should probably follow the video-related stuff at least

[13:10:01.0000] <Hixie>
ah, yes, the video stuff

[13:11:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me wonders whether he should go to Edinburgh and do the degree that Hixie wants him to do :P

[13:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
hey hey

[13:12:01.0000] <Hixie>
do what YOU want to do

[13:12:02.0000] <Hixie>
i just said that physics would give you a better set of career options than compsci, that's all :-P

[13:12:03.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: Issue: I don't know what that is :)

[13:13:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Do one, then the other

[13:13:01.0000] <Hixie>
certainly don't do something you don't want to do :-)

[13:13:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Part of me really does want to go and do comp.phys., but part of me really wants to go to somewhere like Cambridge for comp.sci.

[13:13:03.0000] <gsnedders>
Meh.

[13:14:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Issue with the latter is it would mean re-applying having been rejected on legally dubious grounds

[13:42:00.0000] <roc>
physics a better set of career options than compsci???

[13:43:00.0000] <Philip`>
Computer science sets you up for a good job in investment banking

[13:43:01.0000] <Philip`>
or at least it did a year ago - maybe things have changed a bit now

[13:44:00.0000] <Dashiva>
roc: I think it was comp.phys., not theoretical physics

[13:45:00.0000] <roc>
Philip`: well, the high-end quant jobs also go to physicists

[13:45:01.0000] <gsnedders>
roc: Better insofar as more diverse, certainly

[13:46:00.0000] <gsnedders>
roc: What counts as better is awfully subjective :)

[13:46:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Dashiva: computational physics, theoretical physics… There isn't much difference nowadays

[13:46:02.0000] <roc>
I doubt it's more diverse

[13:47:00.0000] <roc>
everyone needs good compsci people, whether they say so or not

[13:54:00.0000] <Hixie>
roc: you can get any job a compsci job will get you with a phys degree if you have computer experience, in my experience

[13:54:01.0000] <Hixie>
roc: the reverse is not the case

[13:54:02.0000] <roc>
maybe

[13:54:03.0000] <roc>
 but why not study in the area you're actually going to work in?

[13:55:00.0000] <roc>
I don't know if your experience is typical; I hope you're not just talking about yourself :-)

[13:59:00.0000] <gsnedders>
roc: It is typical

[13:59:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie may be egoist and self-centered, but… :P

[13:59:02.0000] <Philip`>
You should go to university for the pleasure of learning, or for being with likeminded individuals, or for having three hours of work a day and six months of holiday a year, not simply for optimising your job prospects :-p

[14:00:00.0000] <roc>
if you go to university entirely for pleasure, I hope you're paying the full cost of your education

[14:01:00.0000] <Dashiva>
You'll be working 40 years afterwards, you might as well enjoy life while you can :P

[14:19:00.0000] <roc>
sure, as long as taxpayers aren't paying for it

[15:33:00.0000] <Dashiva>
There doesn't seem to be any discussion at all in the xhtml2 list about the namespace issue

[15:35:00.0000] <annevk>
that discussion is just painful and not going anywhere

[15:36:00.0000] <annevk>
besides the fact that nobody is really bringing up any arguments browser vendors haven't heard before

[15:37:00.0000] <annevk>
so it just feels like a waste of time

[15:37:01.0000] <annevk>
but so far I have invested like one minute in it two write an example and delete a bunch of e-mails, so nothing too bad

[15:37:02.0000] <annevk>
s/two/to/

[15:38:00.0000] <annevk>
(admittedly, probably half an hour, to also be able to read/skim the e-mails)

[15:40:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Nobody has brought up xhtml1 yet, like Hixie suggested

[15:44:00.0000] <Lachy>
Dashiva, I thought I broght it up

[15:44:01.0000] <annevk>
RB did too though he would like to be pointed out specifics

[15:45:00.0000] <Lachy>
RB has already has specifics pointed out to him (<input>, <select>, <textarea>, <label>). He just chooses to ignore them

[15:47:00.0000] <annevk>
maybe that's not detailed enough for him

[15:47:01.0000] <annevk>
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=478665 is interesting

[15:47:02.0000] <Lachy>
I just don't get how he can ignore such elements with vastly different, incompatible processing requirements, and yet still focus on elements like <small> with minor refinements to their semantics, but with no change to their processing requiements

[15:49:00.0000] <annevk>
he studies something close to philosophy; from that perspective it might not matter much

[15:51:00.0000] <roc>
alright, who's stalking me

[15:52:00.0000] <annevk>
/me might be; forgot who he follows

[15:54:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I have this vague recollection that David Baron once wrote a fairly detailed piece on chameleon namespaces and why they are a problem

[15:54:01.0000] <othermaciej>
does anyone know where to find it?

[15:54:02.0000] <othermaciej>
(or is my recollection incorrect?)

[15:55:00.0000] <annevk>
I don't have the original, but http://dev.w3.org/2006/cdf/cdi-framework/#importing has bits

[15:55:01.0000] <annevk>
/me hunts for the original

[15:56:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I did find that - was hoping to find the original

[15:58:00.0000] <Hixie>
the whole discussion is a waste of time

[15:58:01.0000] <Hixie>
xhtml5 can't change to another namespace, because if it did the browser vendors would ignore it

[15:58:02.0000] <othermaciej>
I know

[15:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
whether xhtml2 uses the same namespace or not is really neither here nor there -- if it uses the same namespace, then it won't ever be implemented by web browsers

[15:59:01.0000] <othermaciej>
but I'd like to also explain to Larry why the idea of changing namespaces as a versioning mechanism is a bad idea even compared to other proposed versioning mechanisms


2009-02-17
[16:00:00.0000] <othermaciej>
although really his discussion mixes up versioning and XHTML2-conflict-avoidance as if they were related when to me they seem clearly not

[16:00:01.0000] <annevk>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-cdf/2006Feb/0009.html has the original

[16:00:02.0000] <annevk>
Member-only :/

[16:02:00.0000] <Hixie>
http://dev.w3.org/2006/cdf/cdi-framework/#importing

[16:02:01.0000] <Hixie>
i'm amused that you forgot you put that in there :-)

[16:03:00.0000] <annevk>
see backlog?

[16:03:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I was hoping to find the original reference but blech, I'm not gonna cite a member-only link

[16:04:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh, i see

[16:04:01.0000] <Hixie>
my bad :-)

[16:04:02.0000] <Hixie>
/me hides

[16:04:03.0000] <othermaciej>
actually I just realized this isn't directly relevant to the message I am drafting but I'll save it for future reference

[16:05:00.0000] <annevk>
you could also ask dbaron is you could cite it in full

[16:08:00.0000] <Lachy>
othermaciej, if you respond again, can you trim the CC list so I'm not in it, unless you're quoting me

[16:09:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Lachy: sorry for the spam

[16:13:00.0000] <Lachy>
changing the MIME type as Larry suggests creates other problems too. Surely there's been enough trouble with the lack of support the the existing XHTML MIME type, that introducing a new one isn't in anyone's best interest

[16:13:01.0000] <othermaciej>
it seems like such an obviously bad idea that it's actually hard work to articulate all the various things wrong with it

[16:15:00.0000] <Lachy>
that's the same problem with all of Larry's proposals

[16:16:00.0000] <othermaciej>
well, that's the sort of thing you get when you start proposing and getting emotionally attached to solutions before actually getting informed about the problem

[16:17:00.0000] <Lachy>
Larry apparently isn't interested in understanding the problem http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Feb/0365.html

[16:18:00.0000] <Dashiva>
It should've stopped at "The xhtml2 group created the problem, they get to solve it"

[16:24:00.0000] <dbaron>
annevk, othermaciej: any particular advise on where in the thread I should repost it?

[16:25:00.0000] <othermaciej>
dbaron: I don't think it needs to be reposted, unless someone seriously proposes changing the XHTML namespace URI in HTML5

[16:26:00.0000] <Lachy>
dbaron, you could just post it to www-archive as it could be useful for future reference

[16:26:01.0000] <othermaciej>
dbaron: but it seems like no one is seriously advocating that, just using it as a pretext to argue for other brands of crazy

[16:26:02.0000] <dbaron>
Lachy, I was just about to do that

[16:26:03.0000] <othermaciej>
dbaron: I briefly got confused about it though

[16:28:00.0000] <Lachy>
I wonder how long it will take for others to use those arguments against chameleon namespace as an argument for why XHTML2 can't change namespace either, under the delusion that XHTML2 is a compatible successor to XHTML1 

[16:29:00.0000] <dbaron>
/me has not exactly been following the thread (especially having been on an actual vacation this weekend)

[16:29:01.0000] <dbaron>
Lachy, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Feb/0065.html

[16:29:02.0000] <Lachy>
wait... you go on vacations without having to constantly read email? I don't know how that's possible.

[16:30:00.0000] <dbaron>
No, a vacation means only reading email 20-30 minutes a day. :-P

[16:54:00.0000] <Hixie>
it really doesn't matter if someone proposes changing the namespace for xhtml5, since that would never get the support of the browser vendors.

[16:56:00.0000] <othermaciej_>
Hixie: you're just part of the evil browser-vendor/search-engine-provider conspiracy

[16:56:01.0000] <Hixie>
well, yes

[16:57:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Don't forget natural-language-processing

[16:57:01.0000] <othermaciej>
how dare you provide users with information

[16:57:02.0000] <Hixie>
(if you can have a conspiracy in public)

[16:57:03.0000] <Dashiva>
#whatwg-secret-treehouse

[16:58:00.0000] <jcranmer>
I'm not part of said conspiracy!

[16:58:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me finally gets around to reading the namespace thread

[16:58:02.0000] <Hixie>
good lord people

[16:58:03.0000] <Hixie>
wtf

[16:59:00.0000] <Dashiva>
/me ponders semantic email

[17:01:00.0000] <Hixie>
this entire thread is completely crazy

[17:01:01.0000] <Hixie>
there's no mime type for DOM manipulation

[17:01:02.0000] <jcranmer>
Dashiva: ew!

[17:01:03.0000] <Hixie>
there's no DOCTYPE for DOM manipulation

[17:01:04.0000] <Hixie>
there's no attribte for DOM manipulation

[17:01:05.0000] <jcranmer>
I'm scared of real HTML mail (e.g., someone using marquee)

[17:01:06.0000] <Hixie>
all you have is a namespace and a tag name

[17:01:07.0000] <Lachy>
I don't even know what a "DOCTYPE for DOM manipulation" is

[17:02:00.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: I think Larry has a somewhat muddled view of element identity

[17:02:01.0000] <Hixie>
createElementNS(ns, tag) is ALL we have to do versioning with

[17:02:02.0000] <jcranmer>
Hixie: onload="document.getElementById('foobar').addChild(document.createTextNode('DOM manipulation'));" ?

[17:02:03.0000] <Hixie>
any solution that requires more than an ns/tag pair is not going to work

[17:03:00.0000] <jcranmer>
you're doing DOM manipulation in an attribute

[17:03:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I'm not really clear on his idea of "different languages sharing the same vocabulary"

[17:03:02.0000] <jcranmer>
/me returns to the thread debating whether or not infinity is a valid mathematical concept

[17:04:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I think it's like <i> getting redefined, kinda

[17:04:01.0000] <othermaciej>
from my naiive implementor point of view, a QNAME uniquely defines the operational behavior of the element

[17:06:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I can see how you could make a different language which has elements from the same set, but (say) a different set of nesting rules so that the valid grammar is different

[17:06:01.0000] <othermaciej>
but that's really not what is going on with HTML5 and XHTML2

[17:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: if you want an example of an xhtml2-1 incompatibility, consider <img src=404 alt="XHTML1">XHTML2</img>

[17:08:01.0000] <Lachy>
oh, yeah, that's another one I forgot about

[17:09:00.0000] <Hixie>
hey, xhtml2 hasn't got profile="" either

[17:09:01.0000] <Lachy>
though RB is likely to ignore that one too since, IIRC, he has repeated proposed that we adopt the same approach in XHTML5

[17:09:02.0000] <Lachy>
(or maybe it was someone else)

[17:09:03.0000] <Hixie>
oh i wouldn't worry about arguing with rob

[17:09:04.0000] <Hixie>
i just meant in general

[17:10:00.0000] <Lachy>
I'm not going to argue with him. He's at the top of my do-not-respond list for a reason

[17:11:00.0000] <Hixie>
i don't understand how xhtml2 UAs are supposed to distinguish between <style src=""> and <span src=""> for the purposes of rendering

[17:11:01.0000] <Hixie>
is src="" just special on <style>?

[17:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
another example would be <script src="a" type="text/javascript" srctype="text/vbscript"/>

[17:13:00.0000] <Lachy>
XHTML2 doesn't have a <script> element any more

[17:13:01.0000] <Lachy>
they renamed it to handler

[17:13:02.0000] <Hixie>
oh well then even better

[17:13:03.0000] <Hixie>
should that show as an image or run script?

[17:13:04.0000] <Hixie>
xhtml2 is very confusing. why does <style> use src="" but <link> use href=""?

[17:14:00.0000] <Hixie>
man this spec is so much like html4

[17:14:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me closes the tab

[17:15:00.0000] <Lachy>
we have similar problems with HTML5 too. Why have <script src=""> for scripts, but <link href=""> for stylesheets? (I know we're stuck with it for historical reasosn, but it's inconsisent)

[17:15:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Like html4 in all the wrong ways? :)

[17:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: in html5, src and href are not global attributes

[17:22:01.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: so there's no conflict or confusion

[17:22:02.0000] <Hixie>
well, there's confusion.

[17:22:03.0000] <Hixie>
but not to the same level.

[17:23:00.0000] <Hixie>
in xhtml2, <link href="data:text/css,link { display: block; }" rel="stylesheet" src="image"/> is a non-clickable image

[17:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
whereas <style src="data:text/css,style { display: block; }" href="document">link</style> is a clickable text link

[17:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
which makes no sense to me

[17:24:02.0000] <othermaciej>
wait, what?

[17:24:03.0000] <Hixie>
exactly.

[17:25:00.0000] <Lachy>
heh

[18:05:00.0000] <john_fallows>
does the concept of origin require a port to be specified, such as http://www.whatwg.org:80 or can a default port be assumed, such as http://www.whatwg.org ?

[18:06:00.0000] <Hixie>
an origin typically consists of {scheme, host, port}

[18:06:01.0000] <Hixie>
there's no syntax, though, so I'm not sure exactly what you mean

[18:06:02.0000] <Hixie>
an origin is just a triple

[18:06:03.0000] <Hixie>
that is, the "concept of origin" has no syntax

[18:24:00.0000] <john_fallows>
ic, so what would the canonical syntax be for postMessage event.origin, or the Origin header for cross-site access control, http://www.whatwg.org (without the default port) ?

[18:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
oh that's the serialisation of the orogin

[18:24:02.0000] <Hixie>
origin, even

[18:25:00.0000] <Hixie>
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#unicode-serialization-of-an-origin

[18:25:01.0000] <Hixie>
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#ascii-serialization-of-an-origin

[18:25:02.0000] <Hixie>
(depending on where you are using it)

[18:26:00.0000] <Hixie>
and then to parse it back into an origin triple, see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#origin

[18:26:01.0000] <john_fallows>
thanks Hixie, that's the section i was looking for :-)

[18:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
which you use depends on what you're doing

[18:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
(postMessage() and Origin: use different ones, in particular)

[18:37:00.0000] <john_fallows>
the HTML 5 postMessage section seems to reference Unicode / ASCII serialization as the value of event.origin, and cross-site access control refers back to ASCII serialization in HTML 5

[18:37:01.0000] <john_fallows>
http://www.w3.org/TR/access-control/#origin-ascii

[18:38:00.0000] <john_fallows>
how do postMessage and Origin header serializations differ?

[18:38:01.0000] <john_fallows>
sorry, how do postMessage event.origin and Origin header serializations differ?

[18:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
postMessage is unicode, i think, and origin header is ascii, i hope

[18:40:00.0000] <john_fallows>
ok, now i understand - thanks

[18:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
was the spec not clear on this?

[18:41:01.0000] <Hixie>
i should fix it if not

[18:42:00.0000] <john_fallows>
no that's fine - i had missed the serialization section, and then just wanted to clarify your comment regarding a difference between postMessage and cross-site, since I was asking specifically about the need to include a default port when you mentioned there was a difference

[18:42:01.0000] <john_fallows>
it's all very clear now though - thanks for the clarification.

[18:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
make sure to follow links in the spec

[18:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
they're there for a reason :-)

[18:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
that is, there should be a link from the postMessage() bit that talks about origin to the relevant origin sections -- if there isn't, of course, please do tell me!

[18:44:01.0000] <john_fallows>
ok, i'll certainly let you know if I discover a problem like that

[18:46:00.0000] <franksalim>
There is no link in the WebSocket handshake section which mentions the origin value "encoded as US-ASCII"

[18:47:00.0000] <franksalim>
by the way :-)

[18:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
really? crap.

[18:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me looks

[18:51:02.0000] <Hixie>
franksalim: the "origin" value at that point is a string, not a triple

[18:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
the serialisation happens in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dom-websocket

[18:52:01.0000] <Hixie>
step 4

[18:52:02.0000] <Hixie>
i guess i could make that clearer

[18:55:00.0000] <franksalim>
Hixie: i see now. i think what confused me was that the serialization and the conversion to lowercase were split into two steps

[18:56:00.0000] <Hixie>
hm, why do i lowercase it

[19:09:00.0000] <Hixie>
franksalim: i updated the spec, is it clearer now?

[19:12:00.0000] <franksalim>
Hixie, yes it is, and thank you for clarifying

[19:12:01.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: i finally worked out what was causing the multipage copy to have weird problems with the update detection stuff

[19:12:02.0000] <Hixie>
franksalim: my pleasure!

[19:12:03.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: it should be better now

[19:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me reluctantly joins the versioning debate in attempt to reduce the amount of e-mail he gets

[23:29:00.0000] <zcorpan>
wow <head><isindex> is really weird in opera

[23:37:00.0000] <annevk>
not too weird given how <isindex> works elsewhere

[23:40:00.0000] <zcorpan>
annevk: the weird part is that we get two <head>s

[23:44:00.0000] <annevk>
oh, hadn't noticed that :D

[23:44:01.0000] <zcorpan>
our html parser creates a siamese twin!

[23:44:02.0000] <annevk>
we should have a easter egg that whenever there's three <head>s we start playing that scene from Monty Python

[23:57:00.0000] <annevk>
so Hixie really did stop the discussion or did I just stop receiving e-mail at that point?

[23:57:01.0000] <Hixie>
which discussion

[23:58:00.0000] <annevk>
the one with lots of things I don't care about: media types, namespaces, and versioning

[23:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
ah

[23:59:01.0000] <Hixie>
i guess so

[00:54:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, form submission should also use character encoding mapping rules

[00:54:01.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, e.g. iso88591 is windows1252 for the purposes of form submission

[00:55:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me discovers his email wasn't working properly yesterday

[00:55:01.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, do you want a bug on that?

[00:56:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: <isindex> seems to add name="isindex" to all elements in the tree (except the <form>) in the gecko html5 build

[00:58:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: also affects other documents that are parsed afterwards

[01:01:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: yes please

[01:02:00.0000] <zcorpan>
/me exposes the isindex bug at v.nu

[01:03:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: (sorry i just wanted to see if it worked, didn't mean to bump priority)

[01:04:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hmm found another bug

[01:05:00.0000] <zcorpan>
guess i should file them

[01:07:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: i disagree with that bug actually. The browser should use ISO 8859-1 if that's what the author set.

[01:08:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: so what should be done with curly quotes?

[01:08:01.0000] <annevk>
that would break pages Hixie

[01:09:00.0000] <annevk>
(it's what Opera at the moment)

[01:09:01.0000] <Hixie>
opera bug#?

[01:09:02.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: what do you mean?

[01:09:03.0000] <annevk>
CORE-10326

[01:10:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: author says <meta charset=iso-8859-1>, user submits U+201C

[01:11:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: that site isn't coming up for me

[01:12:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, given that all other browsers do the mapping, we're going to follow them to avoid future issues

[01:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: 4.10.15.3:6.1

[01:14:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: is there an actual site affected by this that's still up?

[01:14:01.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: ?

[01:14:02.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: "For each character in the entry's name and value that cannot be expressed using the selected character encoding, replace the character by a string consisting of a U+0026 AMPERSAND character (&), one of more characters in the range U+0030 DIGIT ZERO (0) to U+0039 DIGIT NINE (9) representing the Unicode codepoint of the character in base ten, and finally a U+003B SEMICOLON character (;)."

[01:14:03.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, the most recent dupe was 2008-09 complaining about not being able to use Spanish characters

[01:15:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, other dupes are complaining about not being able to use the euro sign for login/password; it definitively seems like something that needs to be fixed

[01:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: i believe that it happens, i'm just looking for an actual working site i can test

[01:16:01.0000] <Hixie>
the most recent dup has no url

[01:19:00.0000] <annevk>
can't help you with that I'm afraid

[01:19:01.0000] <Hixie>
well if there's no actual affected site...

[01:20:00.0000] <annevk>
I didn't say that ;)

[01:21:00.0000] <Hixie>
how have you determined that this is the actual underlying problem in these cases if you have no site to check this against? :-)

[01:21:01.0000] <zcorpan>
"If the token has an attribute called "action", set the action attribute on the resulting form element to the value of the "action" attribute of the token." - html5lib doesn't seem to do this

[01:24:00.0000] <zcorpan>
(isindex)

[01:25:00.0000] <jgraham>
zcorpan: File a bug or send email or something

[01:25:01.0000] <jgraham>
Or provide a patch, I guess ;)

[01:25:02.0000] <zcorpan>
doesn't support prompt either

[01:26:00.0000] <annevk>
has HTML5 been updated to include these attributes?

[01:26:01.0000] <annevk>
I seem to recall there were more

[01:28:00.0000] <annevk>
are there any two browsers that implement <isindex> in the same way that do not share a rendering engine?

[01:30:00.0000] <zcorpan>
annevk: not that i'm aware of :)

[01:31:00.0000] <zcorpan>
annevk: i don't get any other attributes do anything in ie

[01:32:00.0000] <annevk>
enctype?

[01:32:01.0000] <annevk>
method target?

[01:32:02.0000] <zcorpan>
nope

[01:32:03.0000] <zcorpan>
they end up on the <input>

[01:38:00.0000] <zcorpan>
jgraham: http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=87

[01:42:00.0000] <annevk>
I think the same goes for <keygen>, that element is a mess as well

[01:42:01.0000] <jgraham>
zcorpan: Thanks

[01:43:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me notes that the versioning thread is pure undistilled crazy

[01:43:01.0000] <jgraham>
s/un//

[01:44:00.0000] <annevk>
so much material for standards suck and we're not doing anything with it...

[01:45:00.0000] <Hixie>
keygen is for april

[01:45:01.0000] <Hixie>
i think i have enough info on it now

[01:45:02.0000] <annevk>
cool

[01:51:00.0000] <zcorpan>
"It will do so for all feeds that contain ten or more entries all with the same id." - http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/02/15/White-House-Feed-Now-Declared-Invalid

[01:51:01.0000] <zcorpan>
so 9 duplicate ids is ok but 10 is not?

[01:51:02.0000] <annevk>
it's not like feed readers do anything with duplicate IDs anyway

[01:52:00.0000] <jgraham>
zcorpan: Yeah that seems odd

[01:52:01.0000] <annevk>
e.g. Google Reader has an interesting bug I found out about

[01:52:02.0000] <annevk>
I have feed 1 (RSS) and 2 (Atom)

[01:52:03.0000] <annevk>
I redirect 1 to 2 (via 301)

[01:53:00.0000] <annevk>
Google Reader treats them as separate feeds and always has entries marked as unread in both despite them using the same Atom ID

[01:54:00.0000] <annevk>
there's probably a feed reader or two that handles this stuff correctly, but whether it is worth all the trouble of making Atom IDs required...

[01:56:00.0000] <Philip`>
zcorpan: I think 2..9 is a warning (because it's probably incorrect but the checker can't tell if you're actually using it legitimately), and 10 is an error because you're almost certainly using it incorrectly

[01:57:00.0000] <jgraham>
Is the use case for repeated atom:ids in a single feed an entry that gets udated without deleting the previous atom:entry

[01:58:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: But it is not actually invalid per spec is it? So it seems wrong to make a validator signal that it is invalid even though it almost certianly is

[02:06:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: A useful validator seems more valuable than a validator that's pedantically correct according to the spec in weird edge cases that will never occur in practice

[02:12:00.0000] <annevk>
Philip`, if you make <canvas> testcases again maybe include tests for drawImage(document.createElement("canvas"), ...) together with globalCompositeOperation does the right thing

[02:13:00.0000] <annevk>
ok, that sentence does not run quite right, but you get the idea

[02:13:01.0000] <Philip`>
annevk: You mean an empty not-yet-drawn to canvas, in particular?

[02:14:00.0000] <annevk>
Philip`, yes, in theory such a canvas is transparent black and has a certain width/height

[02:14:01.0000] <Philip`>
/me adds it to his list of things to maybe write tests for eventually

[02:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me reluctantly posts on sam's blog

[02:52:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, the new defintion for <small> is better

[02:52:01.0000] <Hixie>
good

[03:36:00.0000] <hendry>
what are the reasons again for not using iso8601? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#valid-date-string # someone i think has told me this before, but I forgot :)

[03:38:00.0000] <Philip`>
hendry: Do you mean using the whole of ISO 8601, or a subset of it?

[03:38:01.0000] <hendry>
Philip`: either or

[03:39:00.0000] <hendry>
Philip`: i guess html5 define a subset as the whole thing is too complex?

[03:39:01.0000] <Philip`>
/me (based on about zero knowledge) would guess that the whole of ISO 8601 is too complex a thing to require, and what's in the spec maybe is a compatible subset

[03:40:00.0000] <hendry>
ok, sounds familiar

[03:40:01.0000] <zcorpan>
iirc iso8601 allows crazy things like comments

[03:40:02.0000] <Philip`>
Also I'd guess (based on never having read it or anything so I'm probably wrong) ISO 8601 doesn't define how to parse invalid strings

[03:46:00.0000] <gsnedders>
zcorpan: No, it doesn't

[03:46:01.0000] <gsnedders>
hendry: Backwards compatible

[03:46:02.0000] <gsnedders>
hendry: Stuff already uses whitespace instead of "T" for example

[03:46:03.0000] <gsnedders>
Also, ISO8601 allows three different forms for the date

[03:47:00.0000] <gsnedders>
(Which is stupid because nobody cares about any apart from YYYYMMDD)

[03:47:01.0000] <hendry>
thanks guys! i need to write a little blog entry next

[03:50:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: You mean nobody except for everybody who cares about dd/mm/yyyy and mm/dd/yyyy etc?

[03:54:00.0000] <Lachy>
Philip`, people who care about using dd/mm/yyyy and mm/dd/yyyy can be ignored because those formats are annoyingly ambiguous

[03:57:00.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: It is easier just to ignore people who use mm/dd/yyyy since that is crazy. dd/mm/yyyy is only marginally worse than yyyymmdd

[03:58:00.0000] <Lachy>
/me will use yyyy-dd-mm from now on just to confuse everyone

[04:00:00.0000] <jgraham>
mmyyyydd ftw

[04:00:01.0000] <Philip`>
I like ymydymyd

[04:00:02.0000] <jcranmer>
mydymyd is better

[04:00:03.0000] <jcranmer>
er, mydymydy

[04:01:00.0000] <jcranmer>
02102079!

[04:01:01.0000] <Philip`>
How about mydyrmydy, where 'r' stands for a random digit?

[04:01:02.0000] <jcranmer>
f!

[04:12:00.0000] <hendry>
/me blogs http://dabase.com/blog/HTML5_is8601/

[04:14:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hendry: gsnedders says it doesn't allow comments

[04:14:01.0000] <zcorpan>
so i was probably thinking of something else, like email addresses

[04:17:00.0000] <annevk>
or media types, wtf

[04:17:01.0000] <jgraham>
http://hydracen.com/dx/iso8601.htm

[04:19:00.0000] <annevk>
btw, http://forum.krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20081202#l-100

[04:19:01.0000] <annevk>
was the original discussion for that issue

[04:19:02.0000] <krijnh>
forum ?

[04:19:03.0000] <krijnh>
What the

[04:20:00.0000] <annevk>
/me copied the URL from Google

[04:20:01.0000] <zcorpan>
http://foobar.krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20081202#l-100

[04:20:02.0000] <hendry>
annevk: thanks, i'll add that

[04:20:03.0000] <svl>
exploit spammers try forum.*.tld and in time that filters through to google

[04:20:04.0000] <svl>
rel="canonical" to the rescue - or something... :)

[04:21:00.0000] <krijnh>
Nah, redirects

[04:21:01.0000] <krijnh>
One moment.. :)

[04:21:02.0000] <krijnh>
F5 ?

[04:21:03.0000] <krijnh>
(Can't test it from my within my LAN)

[04:22:00.0000] <svl>
wfm

[04:23:00.0000] <krijnh>
foobarshizzle. gets redirected?

[04:23:01.0000] <krijnh>
/me wonders why he didn't do that already..

[04:23:02.0000] <annevk>
ja

[04:24:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: "<table>test" results in a text node for each character

[04:39:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hmm? <ruby> is one of the escape-foreign-lands tags?

[04:46:00.0000] <annevk>
i wonder how much would break if we make that list empty

[04:47:00.0000] <annevk>
i.e. never escape

[04:49:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: yeah, foster parenting text sucks

[04:49:01.0000] <hsivonen>
I just gave my HTML5 lecture

[04:49:02.0000] <hsivonen>
time to see if the recording is any good

[04:51:00.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: How did it go?

[04:51:01.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: I mostly didn't get mixed up in my words and I got a few questions

[04:52:00.0000] <annevk>
any interesting questions?

[04:52:01.0000] <hsivonen>
the questions were about when can HTML5 features be used, are there JS implementations, relationship of new elements to microformats and RDFa, extensibility

[04:53:00.0000] <annevk>
fun :)

[04:53:01.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: also see earlier in the logs; i've broken v.nu (nothing will validate until you restart the service)

[04:54:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me looks

[04:54:01.0000] <hsivonen>
good thing my demos were all playback and didn't rely on live services working

[04:54:02.0000] <zcorpan>
:)

[04:54:03.0000] <jgraham>
:)

[04:55:00.0000] <hsivonen>
http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whatwg.org WFM

[04:55:01.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whatwg.org

[04:56:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: now, that's weird

[04:56:01.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: i only validated <isindex> on v.nu, not h.v.nu

[04:56:02.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: they're different instances, right?

[04:56:03.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: aah. yeah. I've fixed this bug in svn.

[04:56:04.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: yes, different instances

[04:57:00.0000] <zcorpan>
http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=446

[04:58:00.0000] <hsivonen>
what happened was that the singleton that represents empty attributes accidentally got attributes added to it

[04:58:01.0000] <zcorpan>
why did that affect <body>?

[05:05:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: if there was a body without attributes, the empty attributes singleton got used

[05:05:01.0000] <zcorpan>
interesting

[05:05:02.0000] <hsivonen>
restarted with the same bogus code. uploading a fix now

[05:05:03.0000] <annevk>
no questions about why we didn't use XForms and such?

[05:05:04.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: no

[05:06:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: the exercise for the course relies on server-side XForms--not client side

[05:06:01.0000] <hsivonen>
(with Orbeon)

[05:06:02.0000] <annevk>
ok

[05:07:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: thanks for finding the bug. I thought it only affected the buffered mode--not the streaming mode

[05:09:00.0000] <zcorpan>
welcome :)

[05:16:00.0000] <hsivonen>
now, to distribute the recording of my lecture in a proper HTML5 <video> dogfood fashion, I should encode it as Theora...

[05:16:01.0000] <hsivonen>
/me wants a Thusnelda build of XiphQT or ffmpeg2theora

[05:21:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me wonders if there is a term for a single, unmached codepoint that is supposed to form a surrogate pair

[05:22:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: lone surrogate?

[05:22:01.0000] <jgraham>
I guess. Or simply "surrogate"

[05:22:02.0000] <annevk>
surrogate character?

[05:23:00.0000] <annevk>
nm

[05:23:01.0000] <annevk>
http://blogs.msdn.com/michkap/archive/2005/07/27/444101.aspx

[05:23:02.0000] <annevk>
:)

[05:24:00.0000] <annevk>
it's a surrogate code point

[05:25:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: There aren't any codepoints that are supposed to form a surrogate pair

[05:26:00.0000] <Philip`>
There's just codepoints that happen to be numerically equal to some of the values used by UTF-16 to encode surrogates, but those codepoints are not supposed to be anything at all :-)

[05:27:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me suggests using the term "U+D800..U+DFFF"

[05:27:01.0000] <annevk>
that's a range

[05:27:02.0000] <Philip`>
/me suggests using the term "a codepoint in the range U+D800..U+DFFF"

[05:29:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: The Unicode FAQ uses the term surrogate code point

[05:29:01.0000] <hsivonen>
at least when encoded as UTF-16 they are code *units*

[05:32:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Sure, but "a codepoint in the range U+D800..U+DFFF" might be clearer/obviouser depending on the context and audience

[05:32:01.0000] <Philip`>
/me can imagine people interpreting "surrogate code point" as meaning "a code point that has to be represented using surrogates" or something like that

[05:36:00.0000] <hsivonen>
eww. my microphone sucked

[05:37:00.0000] <hsivonen>
my words are comprehensible, but it sounds like I'm in some kind of muffled container

[05:38:00.0000] <zcorpan>
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/9 has interesting results in browsers - in particular it makes ie8 freeze

[05:40:00.0000] <zcorpan>
(maybe because the parser tries to insert stuff into something that has been garbage collected)

[05:46:00.0000] <zcorpan>
i think firefox is correct for that test

[05:46:01.0000] <zcorpan>
(the second script isn't executed because the script is not inserted to the document)

[05:52:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: i uploaded http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/10 but your server is saying 404 not found

[05:54:00.0000] <zcorpan>
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%20onload%3D%22w(1) - executes per html5 and in moz but not in ie/opera/webkit

[06:13:00.0000] <aroben>
hi ap!

[06:13:01.0000] <aroben>
hi everyone!

[06:13:02.0000] <ap>
hi aroben!

[06:28:00.0000] <hsivonen>
grr. Keynote's QuickTime export insists on writing to the boot volume even when told to save to another volume

[06:35:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: sometimes in the live dom viewer with the gecko html5 build, the doctype disappears in the dom view

[06:36:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: I'll have to look into that. thanks

[06:36:01.0000] <hsivonen>
is there a way to debug XHR serialization without an echoing script?

[06:38:00.0000] <hsivonen>
"Or, if this fails because the Document cannot be serialized act as if data  is null."

[06:38:01.0000] <hsivonen>
I want to see when that happens

[06:38:02.0000] <hsivonen>
/me starts live HTTP headers

[06:40:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: the spec should be clearer on when a documunt cannot be serialized

[06:40:01.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: it seems that "xmlns:dublincore" local name in no namespace serializes in Gecko

[06:44:00.0000] <annevk>
the idea is that the spec uses the same serialization tricks as HTML5 for XML

[06:44:01.0000] <annevk>
unless the content is HTML in which case it uses the HTML serialization tricks

[06:49:00.0000] <zcorpan>
"</head><!>" puts the comment after head

[06:50:00.0000] <zcorpan>
but "</body><!>" doesn't put the comment after body

[06:50:01.0000] <zcorpan>
why this assymetry?

[06:50:02.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie?

[07:21:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.damowmow.com%2Fplayground%2Fdemos%2Fflash%2F001.html reproducably gives an internal error

[07:21:01.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: it also has two warnings about the hyphens in <![endif]-->

[07:25:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: it seems "<param>" with the html4 schema reproduces the internal error

[07:35:00.0000] <rubys>
jgraham: ping?

[07:35:01.0000] <jgraham>
rubys: Hej

[07:35:02.0000] <rubys>
I don't have a moderation queue... I just say I do to scare off spammers.

[07:36:00.0000] <jgraham>
rubys: Oh, well I got some message about it. Was there some button I was supposed to click? Maybe I didn't look too hard

[07:36:01.0000] <rubys>
"submit"

[07:37:00.0000] <jgraham>
Oh right. I obviously got confused by the UI :)

[07:37:01.0000] <jgraham>
Nevermind :)

[07:37:02.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders (while we're on the subject of rubys's site) whether rubys saw the issue on http://intertwingly.net/stats/internalsearches.html

[07:37:03.0000] <rubys>
Cool!  Nope.  Will take a look at that.

[07:39:00.0000] <rubys>
I have a log of 3238 spam attempts in the past 24 hours (much lower than normal).  None contain jgraham - I scanned in a case insensitive manner

[07:41:00.0000] <rubys>
7 contain 'graham', but all are clearly spam.

[07:42:00.0000] <rubys>
jgraham: at this point, I don't believe I have the comment; please consider resubmitting it.

[07:44:00.0000] <jgraham>
rubys: At this point I don't believe that *I* have the comment either ;) I will think about rewriting it.

[07:47:00.0000] <rubys>
in the log, I see attempts to post at 12:24Z and 13:25Z, but both match Shelley's IP and browser; I don't see any POST request to that entry in between.

[07:50:00.0000] <rubys>
which is weird, as you don't see the message about moderation until a POST request is issued

[07:51:00.0000] <jgraham>
You are looking at Yesterday, right?

[07:51:01.0000] <jgraham>
s/Y/y/

[07:52:00.0000] <rubys>
oh, I was looking at today.  I don't keep logs of aborted comments for more than 24 hours

[07:52:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Lachy (if you see this): you want YYYYMMDD without the separators to confuse people

[08:16:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: I suggest an alternate way of dealing with the world, in which confusing people is not a goal

[08:16:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: That's boring.

[10:41:00.0000] <annevk>
haha, what is RB smoking? I want too!

[11:11:00.0000] <annevk>
and it continues

[11:13:00.0000] <annevk>
on a related note, it seems the people on www-tag only half read e-mails or so

[11:14:00.0000] <annevk>
no wonder they are so frequently confused

[11:20:00.0000] <annevk>
(hi there, mr last week!)

[11:23:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me wonders who Mr Last Week is, again

[11:24:00.0000] <peter_12>
The HTML 5 spec doesn't give guidance on the intuitive choice between strong and em tags. Is there any way to choose?

[11:26:00.0000] <annevk>
peter_12, doesn't it state that one is for marking up importance and one for emphasis and gives examples and stuff?

[11:27:00.0000] <peter_12>
annevk: it gives examples in both but it doesn't make it clear

[11:27:01.0000] <gsnedders>
It does

[11:27:02.0000] <annevk>
peter_12, interesting, could you explain why you think it is not clear?

[11:28:00.0000] <peter_12>
annevk: the explanations hinge on the difference between the phrases "stress emphasis" and "strong importance"

[11:28:01.0000] <peter_12>
those English phrases are not intuitively different.

[11:29:00.0000] <peter_12>
I'd say they could be synonymous. 

[11:29:01.0000] <annevk>
you don't think emphasis and importance are different things?

[11:29:02.0000] <peter_12>
no

[11:29:03.0000] <annevk>
then again, I'm not a native speaker, so what do I know

[11:30:00.0000] <peter_12>
also using the word "emphasis" in the em description is a circular definition

[11:30:01.0000] <peter_12>
the same for using "strong" in the strong tag description

[11:30:02.0000] <annevk>
element names do not mean anything so I'm not sure it is

[11:31:00.0000] <peter_12>
In English we emphasis something in our speech because it is important. That blurs those two phrases together immediately.

[11:32:00.0000] <annevk>
e-mail public-html-comments⊙wo or whatwg⊙wo or so?

[11:35:00.0000] <gsnedders>
The difference is in the nuances. They are different words.

[11:36:00.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow had some good diagram of the overlap somewhere on w3.org/2007

[11:36:01.0000] <peter_12>
gsnedders: nuance is not a good spec quality

[11:36:02.0000] <peter_12>
people misinterpret nuance all the time

[11:37:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Emphasizing something is giving special attention to it; importance is a statement that is crucial

[11:42:00.0000] <peter_12>
gsnedders: that is not a clear distinction to me

[11:42:01.0000] <peter_12>
you want to give special attention to something that is crucial

[11:43:00.0000] <peter_12>
annevk: sent to whatwg⊙lwo

[11:45:00.0000] <annevk>
cheers

[14:25:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me is reading forms.html#application/x-www-form-urlencoded-encoding-algorithm

[14:25:01.0000] <yecril71>
Is it correct that extraneous characters should be sent as &XXXX;?

[14:25:02.0000] <yecril71>
MSIE7 sends them as &#XXXX;, i.e. NCRs.

[14:28:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me �s computer has just run out of virtual memory

[14:44:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me pings from http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms533033(VS.85).aspx#ctl00_rs1_WikiContent_ctl00_Container

[14:46:00.0000] <annevk>
seems that Kristof just pointed out that issue yecril71

[15:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me adds a "+" to his regexp on the .../saved script so that /saved/10 works...

[15:11:00.0000] <Hixie>
i wonder if the rdfa people will actually reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa/2009Feb/0098.html

[15:45:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me �s name is Kristof, actually.

[15:45:01.0000] <yecril71>
/me has a "cri" in it


2009-02-18
[16:54:00.0000] <alyoshka>
there's a small mistake on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html

[16:54:01.0000] <alyoshka>
at #punctuation-and-decorations

[16:55:00.0000] <alyoshka>
towards the end: [dir=ltr] { direction: lrt; unicode-bidi: embed; }

[16:55:01.0000] <alyoshka>
should be: [dir=ltr] { direction: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed; }

[16:58:00.0000] <Hixie>
hanks

[16:58:01.0000] <Hixie>
thanks even

[16:58:02.0000] <alyoshka>
ur welcome

[16:59:00.0000] <alyoshka>
but I can guess how that got in there :P

[16:59:01.0000] <virtuelv>
whoah, this is impressive: http://gyu.que.jp/jscloth/touch.html

[17:03:00.0000] <alyoshka>
pretty nice

[17:05:00.0000] <alyoshka>
just need some 3d acceleration

[17:06:00.0000] <virtuelv>
alyoshka: try in Opera 10 - it's about a zillion times faster than FF

[17:07:00.0000] <alyoshka>
I'm using Opera 9.something

[17:07:01.0000] <alyoshka>
I'll just patiently wait for Opera 10 for now

[17:11:00.0000] <inimino>
that is impressive

[17:13:00.0000] <virtuelv>
alyoshka: 10 can be installed alongside 9, fwiw

[17:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
for those with member access, http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/survey2009/results

[17:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
the score for "W3C Work Priorities" is ironic given that 5 years ago the w3c told us that working on html was a bad idea

[17:24:02.0000] <olliej>
virtuelv: and interestingly broken in webkit

[17:24:03.0000] <olliej>
/me wonders what's going wrong

[17:25:00.0000] <virtuelv>
hm, I tried with what I thought was epiphany-webkit, and it worked

[17:28:00.0000] <olliej>
virtuelv: yeah i just verified on another system

[17:28:01.0000] <olliej>
i think i hve a patch in my tree that has broken canvas in interesting ways

[17:28:02.0000] <olliej>
ah yeah

[17:28:03.0000] <olliej>
i have broken little things, like drawing images onto canvas

[17:29:00.0000] <olliej>
/me whistles nonchalantly

[18:06:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk?

[18:06:01.0000] <othermaciej>
hmmm, I wonder what XHTML 1.2 is about

[18:11:00.0000] <Hixie>
why does reloading http://junkyard.damowmow.com/365 in safari/webkit give different results each time?

[18:11:01.0000] <Hixie>
it doesn't happen if you load the pages themselves

[18:11:02.0000] <Hixie>
weird

[18:14:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok clearly webkit gets disqualified from this race.

[18:14:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me looks at the other UAs

[18:19:00.0000] <othermaciej>
what's that page testing?

[18:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: whether %xx sequences in name="" attributes are percent-decoded before matching

[18:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: (apparently required behavior if you follow the relevant RFCs and decode fragment identifiers at all before comparing them to name="" attributes)

[18:50:00.0000] <Dashiva>
It seems RB drifts more towards pure trolling for every email...

[19:53:00.0000] <roc>
hmm, that jscloth demo seems pretty fast in FF3.1

[23:42:00.0000] <billyjackass>
hsivonen: you still looking for canvas demos?

[00:22:00.0000] <annevk>
"It doesn't seem CSS-specific; it would apply to any styling mechanism." seems pretty weak; does this mean we can now argue for <img border=0> again; it's not CSS-specific after all...

[00:22:01.0000] <annevk>
(quote is from the <iframe seamless> thread)

[00:22:02.0000] <Hixie>
border=0 is a styling mechanism itself

[00:23:00.0000] <Hixie>
the reason we don't want it in html5 is that we are deprecating that styling mechanism

[00:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
seamless isn't a styling mechanism

[00:23:02.0000] <annevk>
you should have said that then ;)

[00:24:00.0000] <annevk>
btw, does seamless affect querySelector() ?

[00:25:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: said what?

[00:26:00.0000] <annevk>
that it isn't a styling mechanism

[00:26:01.0000] <annevk>
I'm more interested in the querySelector() question though

[00:26:02.0000] <Hixie>
as far as i can tell it doesn't affect querySelector(), why would it? if there's something in the spec that suggests otherwise, please let me know

[00:26:03.0000] <Hixie>
regarding the styling mechanism thing, why would i say that? isn't it obvious that it's not a styling mechanism?

[00:34:00.0000] <annevk>
I guess I read your reply the wrong way

[00:49:00.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, according to this NFC FAQ a Google "study" has shown that 99.98% of Web content is NFC at the moment... doing Unicode normalization definitely seems like overkill now

[00:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
wow

[00:52:01.0000] <Hixie>
99.98% without that even being a rule or anything

[00:52:02.0000] <Hixie>
that's astounding

[00:58:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: that's content excluding markup. more to the point for the purpose of Selectors, see the % figure for markup

[01:00:00.0000] <annevk>
I was wondering how id= and class= values are counted, but I suppose you're right

[01:21:00.0000] <Lachy>
annevk, where is that NFC FAQ?

[01:22:00.0000] <Lachy>
ah, found it in www-style

[01:52:00.0000] <yecril71>
Why does MSIE need an ActiveX object to display the specification?

[01:53:00.0000] <yecril71>
GUIDs are susceptible to brute-force attacks only if they are not random enough.

[01:54:00.0000] <yecril71>
What number of attempts is needed to guess a GUID of a known MAC and timestamp?

[01:55:00.0000] <yecril71>
And we can have <htmlarea><fragment-GUID>...</fragment-GUID></htmlarea> for XHTML.

[01:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
the activex ithing is a bug in IE

[01:59:01.0000] <Hixie>
thing

[02:06:00.0000] <yecril71>
I guess so, but triggered by what?

[02:07:00.0000] <yecril71>
MSIE is soo slow at it that I cannot investigate it in any real time.

[02:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me recommends not using IE to view the spec

[02:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
there's probably some <object> in the document somewhere

[02:14:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me recommends not using Microsoft Windows, but it is irrelevant

[02:15:00.0000] <Hixie>
that too

[02:16:00.0000] <Philip`>
annevk: (Also see http://philip.html5.org/data/non-ascii-class-values.txt and http://philip.html5.org/data/non-ascii-id-values.txt for NFCness of id/class, if you haven't already)

[02:18:00.0000] <yecril71>
What is so hard to understand in a proposal to add a reveal event?

[02:19:00.0000] <Hixie>
i don't know, i often don't understand your proposals for some reason

[02:19:01.0000] <yecril71>
The problem is I do not understand why you do not understand.

[02:19:02.0000] <Hixie>
me neither

[02:19:03.0000] <yecril71>
Give me any hint what you are missing.

[02:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
what is the problem you are trying to solve?

[02:20:01.0000] <yecril71>
Garrett had a problem with hashchange and history.

[02:20:02.0000] <yecril71>
I am trying to solve his problem.

[02:20:03.0000] <Hixie>
what is his problem?

[02:21:00.0000] <yecril71>
I have to dig it up from the archive, just a minute.

[02:21:01.0000] <Hixie>
how do you know if your proposal solves his problem if you don't know the problem?

[02:21:02.0000] <Hixie>
(this is why including relevant context in e-mails is important.)

[02:23:00.0000] <yecril71>
Well, I knew it when I was replying.

[02:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
how do you know that my reply to your reply doesn't solve the problem also?

[02:24:00.0000] <yecril71>
Because it does not introduce the difference between real events and AJAX events.

[02:24:01.0000] <yecril71>
And it is just an observation, not a solution.

[02:25:00.0000] <yecril71>
(Of course, the observation is perfectly valid).

[02:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
i have no idea what "real events" and "ajax events" are

[02:28:00.0000] <yecril71>
real events = browser scrolls

[02:28:01.0000] <yecril71>
AJAX events = content changes

[02:29:00.0000] <yecril71>
(better names: physical vs logical events)

[02:29:01.0000] <yecril71>
http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-September/016184.html

[02:31:00.0000] <yecril71>
That is, AJAX uses the action of navigating to a nonexisting bookmark to modify content.

[02:32:00.0000] <yecril71>
It is possible because a hash change event is generated that the script can intercept.

[02:33:00.0000] <yecril71>
The problem of adapting the display after scrolling is quite different.

[02:34:00.0000] <Hixie>
i don't understand what you are trying to say

[02:34:01.0000] <yecril71>
The script can react to a reveal event by reorganizing floating windows that it maintains on the display.

[02:35:00.0000] <Hixie>
what's this got to do with onhashchange at all?

[02:35:01.0000] <Hixie>
i'm really very confused

[02:35:02.0000] <annevk>
/me too

[02:35:03.0000] <Hixie>
mind you, i don't understand garrett's e-mail either

[02:35:04.0000] <yecril71>
Currently, the hash change event has to serve both purposes.

[02:36:00.0000] <yecril71>
It is not a good situation because they are quite different.

[02:40:00.0000] <yecril71>
The practical difference would also be that reveal events would bubble.

[02:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
could you explain what the second purpose that onhashchange is serving is?

[02:41:01.0000] <yecril71>
When the reader successfully navigates to a bookmark on the page.

[02:42:00.0000] <yecril71>
(using an internal link)

[02:43:00.0000] <yecril71>
In this situation, we only get hash change, and there is no difference from fake navigation.

[02:50:00.0000] <annevk>
in what scenario would a page/app mix both styles?

[02:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
and even if one did, why would we want to distinguish them? the whole point is to make "ajax navigation" work like regular in-page navigation.

[02:52:00.0000] <yecril71>
Isn�t AJAX navigation supposed to change the content of the page?

[02:53:00.0000] <yecril71>
When an application uses both fake navigation and custom layout?

[02:53:01.0000] <yecril71>
(i.e. custom dynamic layout)

[02:54:00.0000] <Hixie>
it can do whatever the app wants to do

[02:55:00.0000] <yecril71>
Whereas regular in-page navigation changes only the part displayed.

[02:55:01.0000] <Hixie>
such usage wouldn't need the event

[02:56:00.0000] <yecril71>
And updates the layout of secondary windows to match the fragment displayed.

[02:57:00.0000] <yecril71>
(in response to the hypothetical event)

[02:57:01.0000] <Hixie>
wouldn't that just be a stylistic issue? and thus belonging in css or xbl or some such layer?

[02:58:00.0000] <yecril71>
You cannot detect collisions in CSS, can you?

[02:58:01.0000] <Hixie>
that's a question for the css group

[02:58:02.0000] <jgraham>
Is it specified somewhere what to do with % coded overlong utf8 sequences in URLs?

[02:58:03.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: presumably the same place as it is specified what to do with binary-coded overlong utf-8 sequences

[02:59:00.0000] <yecril71>
I guess the CSS group would answer that detecting collisions is not supported.

[02:59:01.0000] <yecril71>
And I do not think there is any reasonable declarative way for it to be.

[03:00:00.0000] <Hixie>
i didn't say it had to be declarative

[03:00:01.0000] <yecril71>
CSS is declarative.

[03:00:02.0000] <Hixie>
currently, yes

[03:00:03.0000] <Hixie>
so?

[03:00:04.0000] <yecril71>
I think it is not going to change.

[03:01:00.0000] <Hixie>
whether it changes or not is not the concern of the html5 work

[03:02:00.0000] <yecril71>
Whether the developer can use a script to do things exceeding the capacity of CSS is.

[03:02:01.0000] <Hixie>
no. using scripts and apis in html for presentational concerns isn't appropriate.

[03:03:00.0000] <Hixie>
the whole point is that with html we are media-independent

[03:03:01.0000] <Hixie>
media-specific concerns should be in the css, xbl, or other presentation-specific layers

[03:03:02.0000] <yecril71>
Busted.

[03:06:00.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: Hmm. OK I guess RFC 3629 is pretty clear that they are invalid and so should fail somehow. I'm still not sure quite _how_ they should fail though (options include: raise an error, leave them % encoded, replace them with uFFFD)

[03:07:00.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: they should fail in the same way that anything else would fail, e.g. 0xFF, i presume

[03:07:01.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: Which is?

[03:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
varies based on the context, but e.g. if you are trying to "resolve a url" in html5, it would cause the resolution algorithm to further fail, and typically stops whatever was being attempted.

[03:09:00.0000] <jgraham>
OK, that sounds sensible.

[03:09:01.0000] <jgraham>
/me is actually wondering what the behavior of decodeURI(Componet) should be

[03:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
html5 defines all this for its own apis and features, in theory

[03:10:01.0000] <Hixie>
can't speak for other specs that html5 doesn't extend, though

[03:13:00.0000] <jgraham>
afaict ECMAScript specifies that you should decode overlong sequences to their actual value, which seems bad and wrong (and is also not implemented consistently)

[03:13:01.0000] <Hixie>
what do they say to do for 0xFF?

[03:14:00.0000] <jgraham>
I think that gets decoded too

[03:14:01.0000] <Hixie>
to what?

[03:14:02.0000] <jgraham>
Er, maybe I am wrong, evry implementation throws URIError there

[03:15:00.0000] <jgraham>
s/evry implementation/every implementation for which I have a shell open

[03:15:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me needs to draw diagrams of the setup of his physics experiments. ewww.

[03:15:02.0000] <gsnedders>
/me can't draw

[03:16:00.0000] <jgraham>
Yeah, I am wrong. It throws.

[03:24:00.0000] <gsnedders>
What do you call one of those things which both act to measure things and as something you can put things on on runners, normally for optics?

[03:24:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/terrible explanation

[03:24:02.0000] <jgraham>
A light bench? But I have no idea how that sould "act to measure thing"

[03:25:00.0000] <Philip`>
Call it "Equipment A"

[03:25:01.0000] <jgraham>
What's the name of the IE JS engine?

[03:25:02.0000] <gsnedders>
/me tries to find a photo of what jgraham means

[03:26:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: JScript

[03:26:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Actally, no

[03:26:02.0000] <gsnedders>
*Actually

[03:26:03.0000] <gsnedders>
Windows Script implements JScript, and Trident uses that

[03:28:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: I guess you don't mean http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=%22light%20bench%22&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi :)

[03:29:00.0000] <yecril71>
What is Windows Script?

[03:29:01.0000] <jgraham>
It seems like I meant Optical BEnch

[03:29:02.0000] <jgraham>
*Bench

[03:29:03.0000] <gsnedders>
Yeah, I was just looking that up

[03:30:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: Some Optical Benches have rulers built-in

[03:30:01.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: Oh. Maybe I even used one

[03:31:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Off hand the majority of the ones the uni here has do

[03:31:01.0000] <jgraham>
/me hasn't done any practical physics for 6 1/2 years

[03:31:02.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: Yeah, I knew that'd be a bit of a problem :)

[03:36:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me tries mailing es-discuss

[03:37:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me is having issues with not actually knowing what a lot of equipment is called :P

[03:46:00.0000] <fearphage>
jgraham: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_(Document_Object_Model)

[03:49:00.0000] <jgraham>
fearphage: That is the layout engine not the ecmascript engine

[03:49:01.0000] <jgraham>
afaict

[03:49:02.0000] <gsnedders>
That is correct

[03:51:00.0000] <fearphage>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_(ECMAScript)

[03:51:01.0000] <fearphage>
it is indeed comparing the ecmascript engines. the documents are just named poorly

[03:52:00.0000] <gsnedders>
That does give the ECMAScript Engine names in very small print

[03:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
i planned to get to 500 pending e-mails by end-of-march

[03:59:01.0000] <Hixie>
which is possible if you go by the progress chart

[03:59:02.0000] <Hixie>
but there is a problem

[03:59:03.0000] <Hixie>
i don't have 500 e-mails' worth of feedback that isn't blocking on something that i don't plan to do until after march

[04:00:00.0000] <Hixie>
so the lowet i can get is about 1000

[04:00:01.0000] <Hixie>
lowest

[04:00:02.0000] <Hixie>
bummer

[04:01:00.0000] <Hixie>
(i just hit a new low since records began, btw)

[04:07:00.0000] <hsivonen>
oh yeah, one interesting question yesterday after the prepared lecture that I forgot to mention: demos about how HTML5 degrages gracefully

[04:07:01.0000] <hsivonen>
I only had demos of HTML5 stuff working in nightly builds

[04:11:00.0000] <gsnedders>
It's sad how easy it is to get libxml2's XMLWriter API to output stuff that isn't well-formed

[04:11:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Just throw in a U+FFFF in most places and stuff breaks

[04:21:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me wonders how to draw an optical bench as a vector

[04:27:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: "since records began" is a bit meaningless, since the real value you started with is 0 and the start of records is an arbitrary point :-p

[04:27:01.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: A horizontal line

[04:27:02.0000] <gsnedders>
/me facedesks

[04:27:03.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Abstract away the unnecessary details :-)

[04:28:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me meant to just take a photo and label that

[04:28:01.0000] <gsnedders>
But I, uh, forgot to take that photo

[04:46:00.0000] <Lachy>
Philip`, I think he means since the data recorded here http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html

[04:46:01.0000] <Lachy>
which looks like it goes back to about October 2007

[04:49:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, I think the description is backwards. "The vertical axis represents e-mails for the green line and issue notes in the spec for the teal line". It looks like the teal line is supposed to represent the number of emails and the green line the number of issue notes

[04:50:00.0000] <Lachy>
in fact, neither line is teal. One is blue, the other is green.

[04:53:00.0000] <Philip`>
One is aqua and one is lime

[04:54:00.0000] <Lachy>
"The fat line is a moving average." - I was wondering which line this was referring to, and then I noticed when I look at my screen at an angle, I can just make it out.  It's completely invisible to me if I look straight on at my screen. Can you make it a bit darker?

[04:57:00.0000] <Philip`>
It'd be nice to have a strokeStrokeStyle so the edges of the line could be made more prominent

[05:36:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://stopdesign.com/archive/2009/02/04/recreating-the-button.html - "To get that band of color and fake the gradient, I had to insert one more element in the button code. I chose <b> because it was short, and semantically, it didn’t mean anything."

[05:44:00.0000] <myakura>
https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=411391 "We will track the issue and hope to address it in a future version of IE." :-(

[05:50:00.0000] <Philip`>
myakura: Does that have any effect on anything other than the stringified name?

[05:51:00.0000] <Philip`>
"typedef StaticNodeList NodeList;" (and the bits about non-liveness) makes them sound identical except the name

[05:51:01.0000] <Philip`>
and I can't imagine the name being a real interoperability problem

[05:53:00.0000] <myakura>
Philip`: yeah. i don't think that would cause problems either. just thought i could've told them at the beta stage.

[05:53:01.0000] <hsivonen>
aargh. Keynote's recording feature and export is borked

[05:54:00.0000] <hsivonen>
about 1 hour into the slideshow, slide transitions, video playback and sound get out of sync

[06:31:00.0000] <annevk>
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/17-svg-minutes.html

[06:31:01.0000] <annevk>
"<ChrisL> so if I have an svg file, its in shift-jis say so it needs an xml declaration to state the encoding. then it gets wrapped in html, there is an xml encoding declaration in the middle and it breaks? thats bogus"

[06:31:02.0000] <annevk>
I wonder why that is bogus. E.g. if you do that with XHTML it breaks too...

[06:34:00.0000] <annevk>
seems it will take a while longer :/

[06:35:00.0000] <gsnedders>
annevk: It breaks? Wouldn't it just be treated as a normal PI?

[06:35:01.0000] <Lachy>
it's non-trivial to include SVG within an (X)HTML file, and have the SVG markup encoded in a different encoding from the surrounding HTML document, and the idea of including an XML declaration within it is nonsense

[06:36:00.0000] <annevk>
gsnedders, data:text/xml,<root><?xml version="1.0"?></root>

[06:37:00.0000] <annevk>
I'm very surprised that Chris Lilley suggests such a thing. I wonder what's up

[06:37:01.0000] <gsnedders>
annevk: I can't find anything in the XML spec that requires that

[06:42:00.0000] <gsnedders>
I now have no more swap space.

[06:43:00.0000] <Lachy>
gsnedders, it is a well-formedness requiement because of this:

[06:43:01.0000] <Lachy>
 prolog    ::=     XMLDecl? Misc* (doctypedecl  Misc*)?

[06:43:02.0000] <Lachy>
PI    ::=    '<?' PITarget (S (Char* - (Char* '?>' Char*)))? '?>'

[06:43:03.0000] <Lachy>
PITarget    ::=    Name - (('X' | 'x') ('M' | 'm') ('L' | 'l'))

[06:43:04.0000] <gsnedders>
Oh, I missed PITarget ::=   Name - (('X' | 'x') ('M' | 'm') ('L' | 'l'))

[06:45:00.0000] <annevk>
"The document type declaration MUST appear before the first element in the document."

[06:45:01.0000] <annevk>
oops

[06:47:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Allocate a RAM disk to use as emergency swap space

[07:19:00.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: Are you aware that the form element pointer magic doesn't hapen in livedom.validator.nu

[07:48:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: yes. I don't know a public API for making it happen.

[07:52:00.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: Ah, fair point

[08:55:00.0000] <jgraham>
Does anyone have IE to test http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/12 for me?

[09:04:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
jgraham: log: true log: true log: true

[09:04:01.0000] <Lachy>
jgraham, "Internet Explorer has modified this page to help prevent cross-site scripting..."

[09:04:02.0000] <Lachy>
damn IE sucks so much

[09:04:03.0000] <jgraham>
Oh, interesting. 

[09:04:04.0000] <jgraham>
Er, not that IE sucks. That seems pretty clear

[09:12:00.0000] <jgraham>
What happens with http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/13

[09:42:00.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: Do you still have IE? 11:18 < jgraham> What happens with  http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/13

[09:43:00.0000] <Lachy>
I would have to start up VMWare to get it now that I'm home

[09:43:01.0000] <Lachy>
and I have to eat dinner quickly and go very soon

[09:43:02.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: OK, don't worry

[09:43:03.0000] <jgraham>
I guess I can bug zcorpan tommorrow or something

[09:44:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Would IE6 in Wine be acceptable?

[09:45:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: That would be fine

[09:45:01.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: If so, it says "log: [object]" and then dies with an "Invalid argument" error on line 15

[09:46:00.0000] <jgraham>
Oh. Oh well maybe it's no good. I will worry about it some other time

[09:49:00.0000] <Philip`>
(For /12 it says true/true/true)

[10:23:00.0000] <taf2>
hi I'm working with blob's using slice to send small parts of a file to a server with XHR requests..  I'd like to compute a checksum of the bytes i send, so i can verify on the server the correct bytes were received...  the blob interface is great for chunking a file...

[10:24:00.0000] <taf2>
i can access the file contents using xhr and compute the md5sum... but am wondering if there wasn't some proposal floating around with an alternative 

[12:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: since the records began isn't completely meaningless, because i'm pretty sure the records affected my behaviour.

[12:21:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: fixed colours. If you can't see the fat line, your system may have incorrectly configured gamma.

[12:40:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Wow. Creating circuit schematics in SVG really is hell.

[12:41:00.0000] <takkaria>
yeah

[12:41:01.0000] <takkaria>
not worth it, really

[12:41:02.0000] <gsnedders>
All the circuit that I just did that made me conclude that had in it was a couple of wires, a LDR, and a Ohmmeter

[12:41:03.0000] <gsnedders>
*an

[12:45:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me remembers doing circuit diagrams by hand in Design & Technology lessons where the main requirement was to use a ruler to draw straight lines, and then later in Electronics lessons where scribbling in battered old notebooks was considered perfectly normal

[12:46:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Doing them by hand, even carefully with a ruler, is easier than using SVG.

[12:47:00.0000] <roc_>
did you write the SVG by hand or use an editor?

[12:47:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Use an editor. It would probably have been easier by hand.

[13:00:00.0000] <virtuelv>
/me recalls using some horrible, proprietary software

[13:00:01.0000] <roc_>
ok then I guess the editor sucks!

[13:01:00.0000] <virtuelv>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSPICE

[13:02:00.0000] <virtuelv>
or was it orcad

[13:02:01.0000] <virtuelv>
I can't recall, I last did anything with circuits when gsnedders was still wearing diapers

[13:02:02.0000] <gsnedders>
:P

[13:03:00.0000] <virtuelv>
gsnedders: it's not your fault I'm an old fart

[13:03:01.0000] <gsnedders>
virtuelv: It's not my fault I'm a young fart

[13:45:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, my macbook pro has whatever the default gamma settings are. I never touched them

[13:50:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me guesses he's probably meant to write this in the impersonal passive

[14:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: works fine on my own macbook pro :-)

[14:31:00.0000] <gsnedders>
"until the reading on the ohmmeter was at a minimum" — that sounds slightly clumsy, as if there needs to be another word at the end… suggestions?

[14:32:00.0000] <jcranmer>
"was"?

[14:32:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Well, it isn't anymore, is it? :P

[14:33:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me points to the draw where the ohmmeter is

[14:33:01.0000] <jcranmer>
I suppose I need context

[14:33:02.0000] <jcranmer>
it sounded to me like instructions

[14:33:03.0000] <gsnedders>
(Actually, I'm really just pointing at the building of my school where physics is, but I'll claim the above)

[14:33:04.0000] <jcranmer>
are you telling a story, or ... ?

[14:34:00.0000] <gsnedders>
"When taking a reading, all the LEDs on the array apart from the one whose focal length was being measured were covered with black insulating tape, and then the lens was moved along the optical bench until the reading on the ohmmeter was at a minimum."

[14:35:00.0000] <jcranmer>
/me shakes his fist at `lens' being a singular noun

[14:35:01.0000] <gsnedders>
:P

[14:36:00.0000] <jcranmer>
I see what you mean... it's awkward

[14:36:01.0000] <jcranmer>
correct, but awkward

[14:36:02.0000] <gsnedders>
/me really should just care less about his English and just care about the physics part of this :P

[14:37:00.0000] <jcranmer>
"until the observed resistance was minimized" ?

[14:37:01.0000] <Philip`>
Local minimum or global minimum?

[14:38:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jcranmer: Then I risk getting into a -ise v. -ize debate

[14:38:01.0000] <jcranmer>
minimised, then

[14:38:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: local

[14:38:03.0000] <jcranmer>
you're in Britain

[14:38:04.0000] <gsnedders>
jcranmer: No, it should be -ize

[14:38:05.0000] <jcranmer>
whatever you prefer

[14:38:06.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: Actually, it could be either.

[14:39:00.0000] <jcranmer>
/me sticks with his American orthography

[14:39:01.0000] <Philip`>
You could say "...until the reading on the ohmmeter stopped decreasing"

[14:39:02.0000] <gsnedders>
:P

[14:39:03.0000] <gsnedders>
That sounds clumsy too, though.

[14:39:04.0000] <jcranmer>
it sounds too informal

[14:40:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jcranmer: Words from Greek should end in -ize, those from French -ise

[14:40:01.0000] <Philip`>
It's more precise than "at a minimum", because it's describing the process imperatively rather than declaratively

[14:40:02.0000] <Philip`>
though it's only accurate if that's actually how you determined the minimum

[14:41:00.0000] <jcranmer>
I would put in "was observed to stop decreasing" myself

[14:41:01.0000] <gsnedders>
"[T]he suffix..., whatever the element to which it is added, is in its origin the Gr[eek] -ιζειν, L[atin] -izāre; and, as the pronunciation is also with z, there is no reason why in English the special French spelling in -iser should be followed, in opposition to that which is at once etymological and phonetic."

[14:41:02.0000] <gsnedders>
jcranmer: That sounds more formal

[14:42:00.0000] <jcranmer>
formal is better, IMHO

[14:42:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Yeah

[14:42:02.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Why would you expect there to be a reason for English to be as it is?

[14:42:03.0000] <gsnedders>
I agree Philip`'s sounded too informal

[14:42:04.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: Because I'm a bloody scientist? :P

[14:43:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me thinks readability is a more important consideration than formality

[14:43:01.0000] <Philip`>
(though it may be that the more formal phrasing is more readable too)

[14:45:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: If you flip a coin and it comes up heads, do you expect there to be a reason for it to specifically be heads? These things just happen because *something* has to happen, and there's no particular reason why, but you have to accept what happened and live with it :-)

[15:52:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me must relax


2009-02-19
[16:26:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me replies to (private) feedback from someone with the english skills of sarah palin

[16:28:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Me?

[16:28:01.0000] <gsnedders>
:P

[16:28:02.0000] <Hixie>
lord no

[16:28:03.0000] <Hixie>
you at least use sentence structure

[16:28:04.0000] <Hixie>
:-P

[16:28:05.0000] <gsnedders>
:P

[16:29:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me tries to write something with no sentence structure, fails.

[16:29:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me goes back to spreadsheets of terrible experimental data

[16:29:02.0000] <jmb>
Hixie: to whom/where would I report an unterminated comment in Google Maps' output=html mode?

[16:30:00.0000] <gsnedders>
(Look! I've proved there's no such thing as chromatic aberration!)

[16:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
jmb: i can report it

[16:30:02.0000] <Hixie>
jmb: uri?

[16:31:00.0000] <jmb>
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&output=html&q=so171bj&btnG=Search+Maps

[16:31:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Regardless of wavelength of the light, I managed to record a focal length of 10.0 ± 0.1 cm.

[16:31:02.0000] <jmb>
for, example

[16:32:00.0000] <Hixie>
jmb: does it render wrong or something?

[16:32:01.0000] <Hixie>
seems ok to me...

[16:32:02.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Perhaps the laws of physics changed on the day of your experiment?

[16:32:03.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: Perhaps

[16:32:04.0000] <Hixie>
jmb: oh i guess the <!-- in the <style> element isn't closed

[16:33:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: If you did the experiment right and analysed it properly, nobody can complain just because your conclusions don't match the expected answer :-)

[16:33:01.0000] <Hixie>
jmb: hm, that would break in html5, huh

[16:33:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: Obviously the spec isn't compatible with existing content.

[16:34:00.0000] <jmb>
Hixie: yes, the whole thing ends up in that comment :)

[16:34:01.0000] <Hixie>
clearly

[16:34:02.0000] <Hixie>
jmb: i'll file it, thanks

[16:34:03.0000] <jmb>
cheers :)

[16:34:04.0000] <gsnedders>
And fix HTML 5 so it's compatible with the web?

[16:34:05.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: I am well aware :)

[16:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
sadly the reason html5 isn't compatible with this is that what the browsers do is a security bug

[16:38:01.0000] <jmb>
yeah

[16:38:02.0000] <jmb>
reparsing sucks :)

[16:38:03.0000] <gsnedders>
How so?

[16:38:04.0000] <gsnedders>
/me is probably missing something obvious

[16:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
jmb: filed, thanks

[16:42:00.0000] <jmb>
Hixie: thankyou

[16:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh that reminds me

[16:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
jwalden: the infinite redirect loop you found was fixed, btw

[16:43:02.0000] <jwalden>
good to know

[16:43:03.0000] <jwalden>
I reported that back in the spring, right?

[16:44:00.0000] <jwalden>
pretty sure it was Before and not After

[16:44:01.0000] <Hixie>
it was fixed a while back, i just forgot to tell you :-)

[16:45:00.0000] <Hixie>
happened to see it just now since i had to look at the bug database :-)

[16:45:01.0000] <jwalden>
I probably wasn't on IRC when it was fixed, assuming it was in the [June, October] range

[16:46:00.0000] <gsnedders>
I need to actually remember everything related to uncertainties instead of looking it up every time.

[16:47:00.0000] <Hixie>
jwalden: you reported it last april, it was fixed for good in june

[16:47:01.0000] <jwalden>
yeah, that was around the start of my A.T. thru-hike, didn't get back on IRC until October 26 or 27

[16:53:00.0000] <Hixie>
cool

[16:57:00.0000] <jbaird>
anyone available that would be able to help answer a parsing question with html5lib?

[16:58:00.0000] <Philip`>
jbaird: Probably, depending on what the question is

[17:00:00.0000] <jbaird>
Philip`: I've got source code in a <code> tag that has <>= etc. in it that are confusing the parser. The tree that comes out is pretty mangled. If I change the <code> tags to <textarea> the contentFlag gets set to CDATA and it works, but it doesn't seem to do that for pre or code

[17:00:01.0000] <jbaird>
Philip`: I can monkeypatch my version to use startTagTextArea for pre and code, but I was wondering if there is a more optimal solution.

[17:02:00.0000] <Philip`>
jbaird: Can't you escape the < to &lt; in the content of the code tag?

[17:04:00.0000] <jbaird>
Philip`:  not without also escaping the code tag as well

[17:04:01.0000] <Philip`>
html5lib seems to do the same as what web browsers do with < inside <code>

[17:05:00.0000] <jbaird>
Philip`: it tries to make them tags?

[17:06:00.0000] <Philip`>
Maybe you could use <xmp> to get <pre>-like semantics with CDATA parsing, though that'd be pretty evil :-)

[17:06:01.0000] <jbaird>
Philip`: I may as well use textarea in that case

[17:06:02.0000] <gsnedders>
/me is almost certain he's done something wrong with the uncertainties

[17:07:00.0000] <Philip`>
jbaird: Yes - <code>foo(<i>bar</i>)</code> is legitimate HTML and works everywhere and gives an 'i' element inside the 'code'

[17:08:00.0000] <jbaird>
Philip`: right. Ok, I'll try some other ways to work around it. Thanks for the help.

[17:10:00.0000] <gsnedders>
± 0.0 I have for almost everything

[17:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
man i love it when people who right multi-page paragraphs start one of their sentences with "my point is"

[17:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
it makes my life so much easier

[17:29:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me wishes EC2 development didn't take so long to iterate

[17:30:00.0000] <Philip`>
It's like 15 minutes to start the server, then 15 minutes to persist any changes to it, plus various other bits of waiting, which is a pain when I'm trying to debug a startup script on it :-(

[17:34:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: *write :P

[17:34:01.0000] <Hixie>
uh yes

[17:34:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: Bitching about English without even getting it right yourself…

[17:34:03.0000] <Hixie>
there's an analog loop somewhere between my brain and my fingers which converts my thoughts to audio and then back again

[17:34:04.0000] <Hixie>
it's terrible

[17:35:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me has that too

[17:35:01.0000] <gsnedders>
I also have dyspraxia, so I make so many spelling mistakes I have to check what I type closely :)

[17:36:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me returns to reading on uncertainties

[17:41:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Should I state 10.0 ± 0.0 or 10.0 ± 0.01?

[17:41:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Neither really makes sense

[17:41:02.0000] <Dashiva>
The latter

[17:43:00.0000] <Philip`>
The latter seems wrong because it's mixing levels of precision

[17:43:01.0000] <Philip`>
What are the lower and upper bounds?

[17:46:00.0000] <gsnedders>
The former seems wrong because it is implying it is certain, but there is an uncertainty

[17:47:00.0000] <jcranmer>
the last figure is always assumed to be estimated

[17:48:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: 10.0 +/- 0.1 or 10.00 +/- 0.01 would seem more reasonable things to say

[17:49:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: Indeed

[17:49:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me has probably gone wrong combining uncertainties

[17:50:00.0000] <Philip`>
Is the uncertainty in the output of the calculation less than the uncertainty of the inputs?

[17:51:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: As a percentage it's double

[18:00:00.0000] <gsnedders>
So I have u = 85.8 ± 0.1

[18:00:01.0000] <gsnedders>
I then find f = u - u^2/100

[18:00:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Which makes f = 12.2 ± 0.0

[18:01:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Where is my mistake?

[18:03:00.0000] <Dashiva>
So 85.7 -> 12.2551, 85.9 -> 12.1119

[18:03:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Which looks like 12.2 ± 0.1

[18:04:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: I think it's like err(u^2) = 2*err(u), err(u/100) = err(u)/100, err(u - v) = sqrt(err(u)^2 + err(v)^2)

[18:04:01.0000] <Philip`>
which comes out to 0.1 if I'm not entirely mistaken

[18:04:02.0000] <gsnedders>
/me stares

[18:04:03.0000] <gsnedders>
/me is too tired

[18:04:04.0000] <Philip`>
Actually that first bit can't possible be right, can it?

[18:04:05.0000] <Philip`>
s/e/y/

[18:05:00.0000] <Philip`>
Oh well, whatever it is

[18:05:01.0000] <Philip`>
The last step is sqrt(0.1^2 + something) so it's never going to be less than 0.1

[18:05:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: The first bit is right according to the book I'm reading

[18:05:03.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: But only if these are relative errors, I think?

[18:05:04.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: And where the hell is this v coming from?

[18:06:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Just two terms

[18:06:01.0000] <Dashiva>
No relation to your u

[18:06:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: This book says no such thing

[18:06:03.0000] <gsnedders>
Ah, k

[18:06:04.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: I think it's called something with "quadrature" in the name, for calculating errors of a+b or a-b

[18:06:05.0000] <Dashiva>
Self-explanatory variable names, yay

[18:07:00.0000] <Philip`>
but I think I'm totally failing to use relative errors when I ought to be

[18:07:01.0000] <Philip`>
Dashiva: It seems fairly self-explanatory to me that v is just what comes after u :-)

[18:08:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Let's add an error specifier to the error

[18:09:00.0000] <gsnedders>
http://visitmix.com/Opinions/Web-Standards-Gone-Wild

[18:10:00.0000] <Philip`>
The problem with calculating error values is that it fails to account for the quite high probability that your experiment was just rubbish or that you made up all your data

[18:10:01.0000] <Dashiva>
So he's saying the reason we have so many buggy implementations is because the specs were too easy to implement before :P

[18:23:00.0000] <gsnedders>
If this is right, 12.4 ± 1.4 cm

[18:23:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Ow.

[18:24:00.0000] <gsnedders>
(i.e., 12 ± 1 cm)

[18:24:01.0000] <Philip`>
That's not really 12 +/- 1

[18:24:02.0000] <Philip`>
because 12.4 + 1.4 = 13.8 which is a long way from 12 + 1

[18:28:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hah. It gets better.

[18:28:01.0000] <gsnedders>
11.8 ± 14.1 cm

[18:28:02.0000] <Dashiva>
I love when positive values get errors that go into the negatives

[18:31:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Oh shit.

[18:31:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Even my best results have big enough error bars to make them useless.

[18:32:00.0000] <gsnedders>
I really can't do practical physics.

[18:35:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me had a few physics practicals in his first year, and half of them involved calculating g to increasing levels of precision

[18:35:01.0000] <Philip`>
The first was something like rolling a ball down a slope, and getting something like g = 9 +/- 1

[18:35:02.0000] <gsnedders>
I've managed to do that as far as 9.8 ± 0.1

[18:35:03.0000] <gsnedders>
The best guy in my year got to 9.81 ± 0.3, IIRC

[18:36:00.0000] <Philip`>
If I remember correctly, the third experiment involved some pendulum thing which was surprisingly accurate

[18:36:01.0000] <Dashiva>
What if you got 9.80 ± 0.2, would you prefer that to 9.81 ± 0.3?

[18:37:00.0000] <gsnedders>
(This was doing something boring like dropping a double mask through a light-gate)

[18:37:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Dashiva: yes

[18:37:02.0000] <Dashiva>
I wonder how many would prefer the 9.81 one because it looks more correct :)

[18:38:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Too many :)

[18:39:00.0000] <Philip`>
What if you got 9.78 +/- 0.1?

[18:40:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Can we assume anything about the probability distribution within the error margins?

[18:40:01.0000] <gsnedders>
I'd assume I'd done something wrong because I know that's the wrong answer

[18:53:00.0000] <annevk>
/me hit an infinite loop on gmail today

[20:17:00.0000] <takkaria>
talk of mandating <canvas> to have accessible fall is wibble

[20:17:01.0000] <takkaria>
*fallback

[20:17:02.0000] <takkaria>
in some cases, sure, it might be helpful

[20:18:00.0000] <takkaria>
but for the game of life or FPSs, it's so completely pointless to try and mandate it

[20:18:01.0000] <takkaria>
I almost get the impression that there are people around who think that if something can't be done to cater for at least one disability, then it shouldn't be done at all

[20:19:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Send a link to canvex and ask how to make that accessible

[20:22:00.0000] <takkaria>
I stopped reading (and started blackholing) public-html a while ago

[20:22:01.0000] <takkaria>
I only read it via archives now

[20:25:00.0000] <gsnedders>
heh

[20:26:00.0000] <takkaria>
daily stress levels are way down, fwiw

[20:31:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me sends it

[20:57:00.0000] <gsnedders>
For an analogue scale, a scale reading uncertainty is meant to be half of the smallest scale. Surely that'll result in e.g., 1 ± 0.5?

[21:16:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me is about to fall asleep

[21:17:00.0000] <olliej>
Hixie: seen http://www.isolani.co.uk/blog/standards/Ie8BlacklistForcingStandardsRenderingOptIn ?

[21:19:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
Is a table actually best described as data with more than one dimension, or it is more precisely described as data with two dimensions?

[21:20:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
is there such as thing as a three-dimensional table?

[21:21:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
or I mean is it possible to represent a three-dimensional table in HTML?

[21:38:00.0000] <olliej>
/me wonders why MS doesn't take a hint: standards mode == standard, no damned proprietary flags are involved

[21:38:01.0000] <Hixie>
olliej: i had not, but i was aware of the issue. i disagree with the conclusion -- adding the flag plays into microsoft's hands.

[21:40:00.0000] <olliej>
Hixie: how do you mean?

[21:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
olliej: if you give the proprietary flag saying "use IE8 mode" then you are actively increasing the dependence on IE8 mode, which will eventually become a new mode that other browsers have to support

[21:43:01.0000] <roc>
no it won't

[21:43:02.0000] <olliej>
Hixie: yes, i know -- eg. it's a stupid and horrific thing that only exists because ms deliberately crippled ie in the first place

[21:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
roc: it will when IE9 has four modes and this triggers IE8 mode

[21:44:01.0000] <olliej>
Hixie: based on this i'm not sure why ie has any part or input in any of the standards committees, clearly they have no intention of supporting them

[21:45:00.0000] <roc>
I mean, it's nasty and all, but in practice Web developers are not going to ask us to support IE8 mode

[21:45:01.0000] <Hixie>
not if the IE market share continues to decline, no

[21:45:02.0000] <roc>
is there some new information in this context that I've missed?

[21:45:03.0000] <Hixie>
only http://www.isolani.co.uk/blog/standards/Ie8BlacklistForcingStandardsRenderingOptIn and their new blog post

[21:45:04.0000] <olliej>
roc: ie8 will default to non compliance

[21:45:05.0000] <Hixie>
that's not really accurate

[21:45:06.0000] <olliej>
Hixie: users are idiots

[21:46:00.0000] <olliej>
they'll all click compatibility mode

[21:46:01.0000] <Hixie>
that remains to be seen

[21:46:02.0000] <Hixie>
i wouldn't be surprised if users had no idea what it was

[21:46:03.0000] <Hixie>
and never clicked it

[21:46:04.0000] <Hixie>
or clicked it and found it broke something once

[21:46:05.0000] <Hixie>
and never clicked it again

[21:47:00.0000] <roc>
I will be surprised if users click on it a lot

[21:48:00.0000] <olliej>
/me just thinks it's yet another attempt to save themselves having to write a real browser

[21:48:01.0000] <roc>
I think they tried hard to write a good layout engine and then realized how hard it is

[21:49:00.0000] <roc>
I don't think there's new information here, except maybe the suggestion that the "compatibility list" will auto-update

[21:49:01.0000] <roc>
based on user telemetry

[21:49:02.0000] <olliej>
and decided it was much easier to try and catch up by trying to force all the other vendors to implement ie7 compat modes

[21:49:03.0000] <roc>
If that's really their plan, they're really stupid, because it's not going to happen

[21:50:00.0000] <roc>
I don't think they're that stupid

[21:50:01.0000] <olliej>
really?

[21:50:02.0000] <roc>
yeah really

[21:50:03.0000] <olliej>
canvas is trivial (cf. the rest of html5) and yet they still don't have it

[21:50:04.0000] <roc>
that's different

[21:50:05.0000] <olliej>
so my opinion of them is not particularly high

[21:50:06.0000] <roc>
the pressure to emulate IE madness peaked a few years ago and has steadily declined since

[21:51:00.0000] <roc>
expecting that to suddenly change on its own would be monumentally stupid

[21:51:01.0000] <olliej>
i have a vague hope ms just gives up on this

[21:52:00.0000] <roc>
they're not doing canvas because they can't do it

[21:52:01.0000] <roc>
they're either uninterested in advancing the Web platform or actively hostile to it

[21:53:00.0000] <jwalden>
/me thinks the auto-update part there is misunderstood

[21:53:01.0000] <jwalden>
referring to the list being sent to users automatically, not to MSFT-side updates occurring automatically

[21:53:02.0000] <jwalden>
but it's possible that's the wrong interpretation

[21:53:03.0000] <Hixie>
i agree with roc that i don't think they're doing it on purpose

[21:54:00.0000] <Hixie>
it's a strategy that only works with high and growing marketshare

[21:54:01.0000] <Hixie>
it's a strategy they would have used a few years ago -- i mean, it's straight out of their playbook

[21:54:02.0000] <Hixie>
but i don't think they're intentionally trying to use it this time

[21:54:03.0000] <Hixie>
they seem to honestly think that it's the best solution

[21:55:00.0000] <karlcow>
MikeSmith: a table with multiple tbody could be imagined as a 3D table.

[21:55:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Their problem is so much sniffs for IE and assumes it will always be broken, which sucks

[21:55:02.0000] <Hixie>
(in practice i think it's going to be a huge cost to them and web authors, and not hugely affect the other browser vendors)

[21:56:00.0000] <gsnedders>
I'm not sure whether it is really that huge of a cost. There is no absolute certainty that every version will be frozen.

[21:56:01.0000] <gsnedders>
I get the idea that half their issues with implementing the web platform is that Trident really fucking sucks and has no real design.

[21:57:00.0000] <gsnedders>
(I mean sucks from a design POV)

[22:00:00.0000] <roc>
they did a new layout engine so hopefully they fixed that on the layout side

[22:00:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Yeah, I've not seen bitching about that yet :)

[22:02:00.0000] <gsnedders>
(I can't find where it was, but I remember Chris Wilson saying something along the lines of HTML support (of things like a being a link) being in the actual parser (yuk) which was half the reason why they hadn't implemented XHTML yet)

[22:02:01.0000] <Hixie>
i don't really believe they "did a new layout engine", any more than gecko 1.x has a "new layout engine" compared to gecko 1.x-1

[22:04:00.0000] <roc>
I do

[22:05:00.0000] <Hixie>
really?

[22:06:00.0000] <roc>
yeah

[22:06:01.0000] <Hixie>
why?

[22:06:02.0000] <roc>
various reasons

[22:06:03.0000] <roc>
like not a whole lot of bug compatibility with Trident

[22:06:04.0000] <roc>
a bunch of IE-isms implemented late in the cycle or not at all

[22:07:00.0000] <roc>
very slow performance in beta1

[22:07:01.0000] <roc>
exactly what you'd expect if it was a new layout engine

[22:07:02.0000] <Hixie>
it seems to me what they did is rearchitect some stuff, just like when gecko changed rendering layer, or when reflow was rewritten, or whatever

[22:07:03.0000] <roc>
I guess it depends on what you mean by a "layout engine"

[22:07:04.0000] <Hixie>
i don't see the signs of a ground-up rewrite

[22:07:05.0000] <roc>
it looks like all layout and rendering was redone

[22:07:06.0000] <roc>
not so for DOM, parsing and JS

[22:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
i don't think it's like they did  rm -rf layout/  and then created a new bunch of files from scratch

[22:08:01.0000] <Hixie>
i would buy that the code now is very different, sure

[22:08:02.0000] <roc>
I dunno

[22:09:00.0000] <roc>
there have been hints about importing low-level code from Word

[22:09:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: Well, Windows isn't POSIX compliant out of the box, so why would they? :)

[22:09:02.0000] <gsnedders>
roc: You see Alex's talk at PDC?

[22:09:03.0000] <roc>
it's hard to know how much of what was changed, but I'm willing to grant "did a new layout engine"

[22:09:04.0000] <roc>
gsnedders: no

[22:09:05.0000] <gsnedders>
/me digs up link

[22:10:00.0000] <gsnedders>
http://channel9.msdn.com/pdc2008/PC12/

[22:11:00.0000] <gsnedders>
There is some better link which doesn't need Silverlight…

[22:11:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Actually, there are the WMV/MP4 links there

[22:11:02.0000] <roc>
good, because I was going to say

[22:11:03.0000] <gsnedders>
Small and hidden, but there

[22:11:04.0000] <gsnedders>
He speaks about both the old and new layout engines, but mainly the new

[22:12:00.0000] <roc>
Saloni Mira Rai has gone off to do mobile Web services or something

[22:12:01.0000] <roc>
I wonder what that means

[22:13:00.0000] <gsnedders>
(Oh, it appears you have to hover over "Downloads" first)

[22:17:00.0000] <jwalden>
hm, 3.1 can't scroll that page for beans

[22:18:00.0000] <jwalden>
and silverlight seems to be eating cpu

[22:18:01.0000] <jwalden>
hey, 110% CPU!

[22:19:00.0000] <jwalden>
(this is while watching it)

[22:19:01.0000] <gsnedders>
jwalden: This is why you download it in a ISO -approved format and mask in the relaxation of your CPU

[22:19:02.0000] <gsnedders>
*bask

[22:19:03.0000] <jwalden>
quite possibly!

[22:20:00.0000] <jwalden>
/me has some affection for speaker+video near-simultaneously, tho

[22:20:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Anyhow, I need a break from this physics, having been doing it near continuously for 18 hours

[22:20:02.0000] <gsnedders>
(It's due in two days ago)

[22:21:00.0000] <jwalden>
"what happens in quirks mode stays in quirks mode" :-)

[22:22:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: Oh, and on the subject of it becoming a huge cost, Alex talks about re-implementing quirks mode on top of the new layout engine

[22:23:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah watching it now

[22:23:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me can't really remember it overly clearly

[22:23:02.0000] <Hixie>
/me isn't sure he really agrees with alex's comments on quirks mode but anyway

[22:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
seems like what they rewrite was more like the equivalent of nsCSSFrameConstructor

[22:40:01.0000] <Hixie>
rewrote rather

[22:50:00.0000] <jwalden>
a formidable enough task

[22:50:01.0000] <jwalden>
that's been happening for what, eight or so years now?  :-)

[22:52:00.0000] <jwalden>
wow, their frame tree dumps are actually XML in a versioned xmlns

[22:55:00.0000] <jwalden>
vertical text, interesting

[22:56:00.0000] <nessy>
/me apologizes for all bebo spam sent in my name today :(

[22:56:01.0000] <jwalden>
/me wants -ms-boustrophedon

[22:56:02.0000] <jwalden>
or -whichever-boustrophedon

[23:18:00.0000] <jwalden>
huh, aroben asking a question in the audience

[23:19:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'm amused that we're both watching the same video in sync

[23:20:00.0000] <jwalden>
I stopped "watching" actively at the 40m mark when they switched to q&a, but I'm still listening to it in the background

[23:20:01.0000] <Hixie>
ditto

[23:21:00.0000] <jwalden>
laying down a challenge about install base and compatibility :-)

[23:21:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me just got to the aroben question

[23:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
holy crap they actually do intend to have an IE9 mode

[23:23:00.0000] <jwalden>
ooh, a W3C participation request from IE :-D

[23:23:01.0000] <jwalden>
(of Safari developers)

[23:24:00.0000] <olliej>
Hixie: wow, who would have thought it

[23:27:00.0000] <roc>
supporting a mode for each released version, for all future versions, is just mad

[23:27:01.0000] <Hixie>
hear hear

[23:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
i do like the point where he describes the new layout engine as "a piece of sh... a piece of code that is shared"

[23:29:00.0000] <roc>
I think my summary of this over a year ago is still right. http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2008/01/post_2.html

[23:32:00.0000] <jwalden>
dude, this guy's letting his mom still run IE6?  is she really running WinME or something?  :-)

[23:35:00.0000] <olliej>
roc: i agree whole heartedly

[23:36:00.0000] <olliej>
roc: once again i return to my earlier point of why we listen to MS "input" on standards when they clearly have no intention of following them

[23:37:00.0000] <roc>
I have to admit this one-engine-per-version strategy challenges my hypothesis that the IE architects are not really, really stupid

[23:38:00.0000] <roc>
Do MS people actually provide feedback on standards they have no intention of following?

[23:38:01.0000] <roc>
Seems to me they generally just ignore them

[23:40:00.0000] <zcorpan>
/me disables "XSS-filter" in ie8 to make the live dom viewer usable

[23:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
olliej: in all fairness, they provide very little input...

[23:42:00.0000] <olliej>
Hixie: hehe

[23:42:01.0000] <olliej>
Hixie: i remember they complained in general terms about xhr or cross domain stuff a lot

[23:42:02.0000] <Hixie>
oh well that was because they made up their own thing

[23:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
and they wanted the w3c to use it

[23:50:00.0000] <Hixie>
i wonder why they keep saying they don't have standalone IE builds

[23:50:01.0000] <Hixie>
they shipped one for the eolas patent issue once

[23:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
so it's obviously possible

[23:51:01.0000] <zcorpan>
"quirks mode is something that is really well-defined" (from the video)

[23:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah i disagree with almost everything he said about quirks mode

[23:53:00.0000] <Hixie>
heh at the start alex says that they'll only ever have two rendering engines, so having it on mobile won't be hard

[23:53:01.0000] <Hixie>
later it's clarified that mobile won't have ie8, for, like, ever

[23:57:00.0000] <olliej>
Hixie: well that's okay, i was under the impression that ie mobile is not related to ie 6 or 7

[23:58:00.0000] <olliej>
/me wonders where the old ie/mac fits in as well

[00:06:00.0000] <roc>
If they only have two engines, how are they going to support IE8 mode in IE9?

[00:07:00.0000] <zcorpan>
roc: same way they have both quirks and ie7 mode in "one engine"?

[00:07:01.0000] <Hixie>
same way we support quirks mode

[00:07:02.0000] <roc>
well

[00:07:03.0000] <roc>
that's a lower level of compatibility than IE7 mode in IE8

[00:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
how so?

[00:08:01.0000] <Hixie>
so long as they don't rearchitect everything, and hide all new features behind version checks, which is basically what he said, it seems like they can continue hurting themselves forever

[00:08:02.0000] <roc>
when they fix bugs in the IE8-engine for IE9, do they treat each one as a quirk?

[00:09:00.0000] <Hixie>
apparently yes, that is what they do, except for bugs that nobody could rely on (e.g. crashers)

[00:09:01.0000] <Hixie>
(or e.g. the way that IE7's full zoom was useless, so in IE8's IE7 mode full zoom is like IE8 not like IE7)

[00:10:00.0000] <roc>
putting an if statement around every single bug fix is even less sustainable than adding engine forks

[00:10:01.0000] <zcorpan>
funny thing about the zoom: i filed a bug about the zoom in ie7 saying it was useless, but the bug was closed as "by design" saying that the way it worked was the way it was intended to work

[00:10:02.0000] <Hixie>
roc: oh, i'm ahead of you in the line of people telling them not to do this :-)

[00:11:00.0000] <roc>
and it's still less compatibility than forking code, because you will for sure accidentally break things that way

[00:11:01.0000] <Hixie>
yes, just look at IE7 mode in IE8 for an example of that

[00:12:00.0000] <zcorpan>
ie5.5, quirks mode in ie6, and quirks mode in ie7 are all slightly different but they are intended to be the same

[00:12:01.0000] <zcorpan>
(dunno if quirks mode in ie8 is different from ie7, it probably is)

[00:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: but i thought quirks mode was well defined!

[00:13:01.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: indeed :)

[00:56:00.0000] <zcorpan>
"i would really like to see safari representatives in the w3c more often"

[01:03:00.0000] <olliej>
zcorpan: ?

[01:03:01.0000] <olliej>
zcorpan: we talk periodically, many of us live in this channel

[01:03:02.0000] <zcorpan>
olliej: quote from the ms talk

[01:03:03.0000] <olliej>
zcorpan: i believe a lot of the app cache and worker stuff has a large amount of feedback from us

[01:04:00.0000] <olliej>
zcorpan: assholes

[01:04:01.0000] <olliej>
arrogant to the last

[01:04:02.0000] <Hixie>
i think he's saying that you should attend csswg f2fs more often

[01:04:03.0000] <olliej>
really?

[01:05:00.0000] <Hixie>
and the correct reply is "how about you send us more feedback on webapps, geolocation, html5, svg, etc?"

[01:05:01.0000] <annevk>
and maybe edit some specs :p

[01:05:02.0000] <olliej>
hmmm

[01:05:03.0000] <olliej>
oh well

[01:05:04.0000] <Philip`>
You should stop spending so much time writing awesome browsers

[01:05:05.0000] <olliej>
hometime

[01:05:06.0000] <annevk>
though actually dino is doing that now for a bunch of cool stuff

[01:06:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me isn't exactly a bastion of productivity in the csswg anymore either

[01:06:01.0000] <annevk>
with reason

[01:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok i'm going to play half-life 2 ep 2 some more.

[01:08:01.0000] <Hixie>
back later

[01:11:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me thinks this episodic gaming thing would seem like a better idea if it didn't take Valve 1.5 years to release each new episode

[01:17:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: re r2840, i think progress events expose information that's not possible to get in other ways

[01:17:01.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: we've crippled progress events cross-origin for that reason, iirc

[01:18:00.0000] <annevk>
we did

[01:19:00.0000] <roc>
got a link for that revision?

[01:19:01.0000] <zcorpan>
http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2839&to=2840

[01:22:00.0000] <roc>
ta

[01:23:00.0000] <roc>
annevk, zcorpan: so you cripple progress events on cross-origin loads of media resources?

[01:24:00.0000] <roc>
what about duration?

[01:25:00.0000] <annevk>
http://www.w3.org/2009/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html has some interesting bits

[01:26:00.0000] <annevk>
roc, we do nothing with duration as far as I know, I guess it's like <img>.width/height in a way, though maybe we should do something about it...

[01:27:00.0000] <roc>
I don't know if it's worth concealing the byte size of media elements if you're not going to conceal the duration

[01:27:01.0000] <roc>
seems like the duration is actually better information

[01:27:02.0000] <roc>
making sure you don't leak file sizes for media loads that turn out not to be valid media resources, sure

[01:27:03.0000] <annevk>
that last one is the main concern

[01:28:00.0000] <roc>
Chris Pearce just wrote some nice tests for that today, we seem to be clean

[01:28:01.0000] <roc>
do I want to know what XFrames is?

[01:29:00.0000] <zcorpan>
no

[01:29:01.0000] <zcorpan>
are the tests public?

[01:30:00.0000] <annevk>
roc, you might amuse yourself with it for a few minutes, but last I checked it does not actually solve any of the problems with normal frames so they are not that interesting

[01:30:01.0000] <roc>
zcorpan: of course, everything we do is public

[01:31:00.0000] <roc>
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=478957

[01:31:01.0000] <zcorpan>
thanks

[01:31:02.0000] <zcorpan>
"You are not authorized to access bug #478957."

[01:31:03.0000] <roc>
what's your bugzilla ID?

[01:31:04.0000] <zcorpan>
zcorpan⊙gc

[01:32:00.0000] <roc>
try again

[01:32:01.0000] <zcorpan>
works

[01:32:02.0000] <roc>
I authorized you :-)

[01:32:03.0000] <zcorpan>
doesn't seem too "public" though ;)

[01:33:00.0000] <roc>
fair enough, security-sensitive bugs aren't as public as the others :-)

[01:33:01.0000] <roc>
although we should just remove that since we don't know of any bugs to fix here

[01:36:00.0000] <roc>
you may find some of the existing tests here useful actually:

[01:36:01.0000] <roc>
http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/file/tip/content/media/video/test/

[01:37:00.0000] <zcorpan>
/me looks at the test and tries to understand it

[01:38:00.0000] <zcorpan>
so you don't send any events other than 'loadstart', 'error', 'emptied'?

[01:38:01.0000] <roc>
when a load fails because of origin check failure --- no

[01:40:00.0000] <annevk>
you enforce same origin?

[01:40:01.0000] <roc>
no, but we do prevent HTTP from loading files

[01:41:00.0000] <roc>
and we have code for same origin enforcement, it's just disabled, there for emergencies :-)

[01:41:01.0000] <roc>
I guess trying to load a non-media resource and failing isn't actually in this test

[01:41:02.0000] <roc>
maybe tomorrow

[01:41:03.0000] <roc>
sorry

[01:42:00.0000] <deltab>
annevk: not even bookmarkability? #frames(menu=foo.html,main=bar.html)

[01:43:00.0000] <roc>
does anyone actually use frames anymore?

[01:43:01.0000] <zcorpan>
hmm, what if you want both #frames() and #xpointer()?

[01:43:02.0000] <annevk>
deltab, there was talk of them taking that part out but I guess since nobody is doing any work that hasn't happened

[01:43:03.0000] <annevk>
deltab, or maybe plans changed

[01:43:04.0000] <deltab>
zcorpan: not sure why you'd want to

[01:44:00.0000] <zcorpan>
deltab: you may want to link to a specific section in a frame

[01:44:01.0000] <zcorpan>
instead of saying "go to www.example.com, click link foo and scroll down to section bar"

[01:45:00.0000] <annevk>
#frames(menu=html5elements.html,main=html5spec#the-address-element)

[01:45:01.0000] <zcorpan>
annevk: oh right

[01:46:00.0000] <annevk>
now that might violate the URI spec

[01:46:01.0000] <zcorpan>
maybe the second # should be %25 instead

[01:46:02.0000] <zcorpan>
er

[01:46:03.0000] <deltab>
yeah

[01:47:00.0000] <zcorpan>
%23 even

[01:47:01.0000] <deltab>
oops

[01:47:02.0000] <annevk>
/me enjoys this pointless discussion

[01:47:03.0000] <deltab>
so why would that be taken out?

[01:48:00.0000] <zcorpan>
/me looks at http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/accessible/src/html/nsHTMLTableAccessible.cpp#1029

[01:50:00.0000] <roc>
wow, I've never seen that before

[01:50:01.0000] <zcorpan>
seems to have a check for empty summary

[01:51:00.0000] <annevk>
deltab, I guess because of the issues, but I'm not really sure to be honest

[01:51:01.0000] <annevk>
deltab, and also don't really care, we don't want frames anymore right?

[01:52:00.0000] <zcorpan>
not sure if i follow the role="" check -- what happens with <table role=presentation> in particular?

[01:52:01.0000] <deltab>
there are plenty of frames already out there on the web, and on intranets; it'd be nice to be able to link to them

[01:53:00.0000] <Philip`>
zcorpan: It handles empty summary the same as non-existent summary, so it's really just checking for a non-empty summary

[01:54:00.0000] <Philip`>
(so you can't say <table summary=""> to force the algorithm to treat it as a layout table)

[01:54:01.0000] <annevk>
deltab, if you wanna keep frames, you should argue for them; currently they're non-conforming

[01:54:02.0000] <zcorpan>
Philip`: right

[01:56:00.0000] <zcorpan>
ah, if a table has a nested table it must be a layout table

[01:56:01.0000] <zcorpan>
i guess that's generally true

[01:56:02.0000] <deltab>
I'm not arguing for frames (and don't really care about the frames/tabs/mdi part of xframes), but given that they already exist it would be useful to fix them

[01:59:00.0000] <deltab>
browsers have fixed the back button behaviour, but their internal state for what's loaded in each frame isn't expressible as a url

[02:00:00.0000] <roc>
/me wonders if he should tell these Web-app sound mixing people to use JS to mix the streams and build data:audio/wave URIs for the audio element

[02:01:00.0000] <Philip`>
roc: That would require a way to access the audio samples from JS

[02:01:01.0000] <roc>
just load them with XHR

[02:01:02.0000] <Philip`>
and since this is over a network you'd probably want to use compression

[02:01:03.0000] <roc>
gzip

[02:01:04.0000] <Philip`>
and writing a Vorbis decoder in JS is not my idea of fun

[02:02:00.0000] <zcorpan>
"<=4 columns and 100% width" -- hmm, so data tables usually aren't 100% wide?

[02:02:01.0000] <roc>
actually

[02:02:02.0000] <Philip`>
gzip is pretty rubbish at audio

[02:02:03.0000] <roc>
http://barelyfocused.net/blog/2008/10/03/flash-vorbis-player/

[02:03:00.0000] <annevk>
deltab, many things exist that aren't really worth fixing; some are (e.g. HTML), but I'm not sure frames is one of them

[02:07:00.0000] <Philip`>
128kb/s Ogg: 2MB

[02:07:01.0000] <Philip`>
Equivalent .wav: 24MB

[02:07:02.0000] <Philip`>
Equivalent .wav.gz: 21MB

[02:07:03.0000] <Philip`>
So gzip is indeed not great

[02:08:00.0000] <roc>
sorry, I was joking about gzip

[02:08:01.0000] <roc>
I'm joking about writing a synthesizer using data: URIs as well

[02:08:02.0000] <Philip`>
roc: The problem with that Flash Vorbis player is that it's clearly an insane idea

[02:08:03.0000] <roc>
although I'm sure someone will do it anyway, just like they wrote graphics APIs using <img src="data:...">

[02:09:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hmm, apparently it's written in haXe, and haXe can target Javascript...

[02:10:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders if that actually works in practice, or if it's like the Perl-6-targetted-to-Javascript idea that produced 2MB of script code for 'hello world' a few years ago

[02:11:00.0000] <Hixie>
to be fair it probably also produced 2MB for a small 3d first-person-shooter

[02:11:01.0000] <Philip`>
Actually it just crashed for anything more complex

[02:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[02:13:01.0000] <Philip`>
/me was quite pleased when he managed to write some sorting algorithms in Perl 6 that ran correctly in Pugs, though his algorithms lecturer wasn't too happy at having it submitted for the relevant practical exercise

[02:13:02.0000] <roc>
Philip`: there are some performance numbers there that are quite good

[02:14:00.0000] <Hixie>
perl6 is simultaneously the most frightening and the most aweinspiring language i've yet seen

[02:15:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'm curious to find out if it'll be Ready before HTML5 is or not

[02:19:00.0000] <annevk>
with two interoperable implementations and all? :)

[02:21:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/psort.p6 - it's not that unreadable really

[02:22:00.0000] <Philip`>
I like the ¥ operator

[02:22:01.0000] <Philip`>
http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/sort.bef was my other attempt at a sorting algorithm, with extensive documentation

[02:29:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: if writing an Vorbis decoder in JS is not your kind of fun, how about writing it in Java and compiling it into JS with GWT?

[02:32:00.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: re css, css2.1 vs css3 is a bad example because 2.1's editor's draft is more up to date than 3's editor's drafts

[02:32:01.0000] <hsivonen>
hmm. if http://www.w3.org/2009/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html was minuted correctly, it seems that Steven missed my point about writing non-browser apps with XML APIs

[02:32:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: it wasn't an example. it was a question that might turn into an example depending on the answer

[02:33:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok, s/a bad example/an unusual case/

[02:36:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: Based on my current (approximately zero) knowledge of GWT, I would expect the added layer of abstraction would be unacceptable from a performance and performance-tuning perspective

[02:36:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: the marketing claims say the opposite

[02:38:00.0000] <doublec>
someone sent me a vorbis decoder written in actionscript

[02:38:01.0000] <doublec>
it wouldn't take much to convert to JS

[02:38:02.0000] <annevk>
http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html sure is making a dive

[02:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
i have no idea how i'm going to reply to 500 e-mails in the next 5 weeks

[02:39:01.0000] <Hixie>
not because it wouldn't be possible

[02:39:02.0000] <Hixie>
it would be easy to do so

[02:39:03.0000] <annevk>
triple digits even

[02:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
but because i don't have 500 e-mails left to reply to that i haven't scheduled for dealing with after march...

[02:40:01.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: Even if the compiler produces fast JS code, it probably won't produce the fastest JS code that you could write by hand, and the compiler probably prevents you from writing Java code that will be transformed into that optimal JS code

[02:40:02.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: Make some really controversial change to the spec that generates hundreds of messages of discussion, and then change the spec back and reply to all the emails saying "Okay, I've changed it back now"

[02:40:03.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: it allows you to escape to JS when needed

[02:40:04.0000] <Hixie>
(i want to do 500 e-mails because i set myself a goal of reaching 600 e-mails by end of march)

[02:41:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: In that case you might as well just write the entire thing in JS :-)

[02:41:01.0000] <Hixie>
(and we're at ~1100 not)

[02:41:02.0000] <Hixie>
now

[02:41:03.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: such e-mails unfortunately don't count towards the 500 :-)

[02:42:00.0000] <annevk>
hmm, lots of folders are gone

[02:43:00.0000] <annevk>
is that why you're working on XXX stuff instead?

[02:43:01.0000] <hendry>
gsnedders: about your T stuff in time, if you're there

[02:43:02.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: i also planned to get the XXX stuff down to 250 XXXs by the end of march

[02:46:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: Python+PyPy => js ;)

[02:47:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Does PyPy exist and work?

[02:47:01.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, test suite then :p

[02:47:02.0000] <Hixie>
hm?

[02:47:03.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: For simple things it is always worth checking error calculations using something like error(y(x)) = (y(x+error(x)) - y(x-error(x)))/2.

[02:47:04.0000] <Hixie>
i have plenty of XXXs!

[02:47:05.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, shouldn't your goals be based on getting things done in the spec, rather than the number of emails you need to respond to?

[02:47:06.0000] <Hixie>
and plenty of e-mails

[02:48:00.0000] <Philip`>
(I only remember hearing of PyPy as a concept and a project that some people were hacking on, rather than as an actual thing that could actually be used)

[02:48:01.0000] <jgraham>
Of course you need to work out what effect each parameter has on the result and choose the right sign

[02:48:02.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: i also have goals regarding that

[02:48:03.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: though they're much harder to meet and depend on other people (e.g. taking out sections into ietf land)

[02:49:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: http://codespeak.net/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/#status I doubt the js backend is very good though

[02:49:01.0000] <jgraham>
Indeed it doesn't even appear on the compatibility matrix

[02:50:00.0000] <jgraham>
http://codespeak.net/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/js/using.html

[03:13:00.0000] <annevk>
I wish we'd do more to fight charset proliferation, but maybe HTML5 is the wrong level

[03:13:01.0000] <Hixie>
are new charsets still being created?

[03:14:00.0000] <annevk>
I was more thinking along the lines of having a fixed list of charsets user agents must support and everything outside that must not be supported

[03:16:00.0000] <annevk>
And I would also love it if iso88591 and equivalent encodings were just obsoleted in favor of the ones they are aliased too

[03:17:00.0000] <annevk>
so that there's consistent handling of charsets across all specs

[03:18:00.0000] <zcorpan>
"Any byte or sequences of bytes in the original byte stream that  is misinterpreted for compatibility is a parse error." -- hmm, it wasn't a parse error before, was it?

[03:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: it was

[03:20:01.0000] <jgraham>
Really?

[03:20:02.0000] <Hixie>
see the diff

[03:21:00.0000] <Hixie>
i didn't change anything, i just moved the text around a bit

[03:21:01.0000] <annevk>
so l--()1 is mapped to windows1252?

[03:21:02.0000] <zcorpan>
Any

[03:21:03.0000] <zcorpan>
-  bytes that are treated differently due to this encoding aliasing

[03:21:04.0000] <zcorpan>
-  must be considered <a href=#parse-error title="parse error">parse

[03:21:05.0000] <zcorpan>
-  errors</a>.</p>

[03:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: ?

[03:22:01.0000] <annevk>
l1 is an alias for iso88591

[03:22:02.0000] <jgraham>
So you are expected to implemet a table of all the byte sequences that are interpreted differently in different aliased encodings and report a parse error for each one

[03:22:03.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: good times.

[03:22:04.0000] <annevk>
why are alias names not must?

[03:23:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: i wondered the same thing when i just did that edit, actually

[03:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: if you're a conformance checker, yes

[03:24:00.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: Or, hpothetically, a library that reports syntax-level errors

[03:24:01.0000] <annevk>
it seems IANA and Unicode are also not quite aligned as some alias names are already considered identical per Unicode matching rules

[03:24:02.0000] <jgraham>
s/hp/hyp/

[03:24:03.0000] <hsivonen>
argh. public-html is back to generating copious amounts of email per day :-(

[03:24:04.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: "library" is not a conformance class

[03:24:05.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: Well that gives me a problem then

[03:25:00.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: a library can't be a conformance class, it doesn't do anything on its own, and so can't be tested.

[03:25:01.0000] <jgraham>
/me has smaller ambitions than annevk; I would settle for the status quo in encodings if only the versioning discussion would stop

[03:26:00.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: Well "generic library" can't be a conformance class. But "parser library" could be.

[03:26:01.0000] <Hixie>
i don't understand why the versioning discussion is continuing. i tried to ignore it, then i made the mistake of trying to show why it was mistaken, and now i can't extricate myself.

[03:27:00.0000] <annevk>
hsivonen, copious ignorable amounts

[03:27:01.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: we could indeed have a "parser library" conformance class, but i don't think you want us to define the interface you have to implement. :-)

[03:27:02.0000] <Philip`>
/me thinks "code that you can run a common set of tests against" is a more useful concept than "conformance class"

[03:27:03.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: also, different parser libraries might have different requirements, e.g. some might care about parse errors, others might not

[03:28:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, fortunately I no longer feel compelled to end every thread I end up contributing to in some way :)

[03:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: heh

[03:29:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: Re: "The whole point of the language is the interpretation part": not if your world view of languages is the view of the kind of theoretical computer scientist to whom a language is a set of strings

[03:29:01.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: Agreed about the parse errors. It seems like there should be a way to specify even-blacker-box conformance requirements for a parser library that basically say it must return things that represent the same structure as the DOM tree built in the parsing section

[03:30:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: i.e. if you think on the level of regular, context-free, etc.

[03:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: luckily, theoretical people aren't real, so i don't have to worry about them

[03:30:02.0000] <Hixie>
/me ducks

[03:31:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me has met theoretical computer scientists

[03:31:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me was making an english ambiguous scoping joke

[03:32:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me sees that

[03:32:01.0000] <jgraham>
/me wasn't fast enough to follow it up

[03:32:02.0000] <annevk>
/me falls asleep

[03:32:03.0000] <zcorpan>
English needs namespaces so words can be disambiguated inline

[03:32:04.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: i think it's more useful to be able to say that the parser allows one to write a conforming data mining tool (or whatever) than to say that the library itself is conforming...

[03:32:05.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: but i see why you would like the latter

[03:32:06.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: first, it needs parentheses

[03:33:00.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: my fear is that defining a "foo library" conformance class (foo = text/html parser here) would have various unfortunate ramifications

[03:34:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie, jgraham: I encourage you to consider ramifications especially in the light of the recent public-rdfa thread

[03:34:01.0000] <hsivonen>
and the ramifications feeding back into browsers, etc.

[03:34:02.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: including at least: the likelihood of multiple other "foo"s being desired (e.g. table, outline), and the likelihood that for any "foo" there are a variety of libraries that actually cover slightly less and more than "foo"

[03:34:03.0000] <jgraham>
/me isn't sure how to use parentheses to disambiguate Hixie's sentence

[03:35:00.0000] <jgraham>
Earlier computer scientist sentence

[03:35:01.0000] <zcorpan>
jgraham: it was hsivonen's sentence

[03:35:02.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: you need a close paren before -ist

[03:35:03.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: e.g. if you wanted to make html5lib also have a networking backend

[03:35:04.0000] <annevk>
has anyone noticed the insane amount of tweets containing the word "html5"?

[03:35:05.0000] <annevk>
there's like >200 a day now

[03:35:06.0000] <annevk>
wtf

[03:35:07.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: or wanted it to include constructing tables

[03:35:08.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: etc

[03:35:09.0000] <Philip`>
"theoretical computer scientists (i.e. practitioners of theoretical computer science)" - there you go

[03:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: MCW (sp?) was this week, and google announced a bunch of html5-based apps for mobile phones there

[03:36:01.0000] <annevk>
k

[03:37:00.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: Well clearly the solution is m18n; one defines a conformance class for each atom of the spec that it makes sense to implement independently and allow people to say that they are a conforming HTML 5 (Parsing Tables) implementation. Note this is not a serious suggestion :)

[03:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
i assume you mean m12n :-P

[03:39:01.0000] <Philip`>
/me works with largely-theoretical computer scientists who are using the term 'language' for a mathematical representation of some algebraic stuff, and the whole idea of strings and syntax is irrelevant and just shunted off to Yacc

[03:39:02.0000] <jgraham>
mXYn where X, Y are random decimal digits

[03:39:03.0000] <hsivonen>
is karlcow seriously proposing triples as a vehicleof prose in www-archive?

[03:40:00.0000] <annevk>
h35 and then HTML35 would be h45 at which point things start getting confusing

[03:41:00.0000] <virtuelv>
switch html to the ubuntu versioning scheme

[03:41:01.0000] <virtuelv>
and ship a new spec every six months :D

[03:42:00.0000] <hsivonen>
virtuelv: or use only LTS releases and skip the whole XHTML thing :-)

[03:42:01.0000] <Philip`>
HTML, ITML, JTML, ... - sounds good to me

[03:44:00.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: No. I think he is trying to say that you can make up many different serializations of HTML

[03:44:01.0000] <jgraham>
I don't really understand though

[03:44:02.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: but different serializations don't demonstrate DOMlessness

[03:44:03.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: Like I said, I don't really understand.

[03:46:00.0000] <Philip`>
Maybe he's saying you can make up many different serialisations that don't map onto a tree model, and hence the DOM is an inappropriate abstraction

[03:47:00.0000] <Philip`>
like an RDF-triple serialisation maps onto a graph not a tree, and "Key: Value" maps onto a list of pairs

[03:47:01.0000] <Philip`>
or something like that

[03:48:00.0000] <jgraham>
But all HTML documents do map onto trees

[03:49:00.0000] <jgraham>
In any case it seems to be related to browsing contexts so now I understand even less because serializations have nothing to do with browsing contexts

[03:50:00.0000] <Philip`>
They currently do, but someone might invent a new system where they don't, and they wouldn't be able to reuse much of the HTML5 spec even if they've got equivalent functionality because HTML5 is defined in terms of the tree model

[03:50:01.0000] <Philip`>
or, uh, something like that - I don't understand what he's saying either

[03:51:00.0000] <annevk>
I think he's saying that authors perceive HTML as markup, not as a tree or object structure

[03:52:00.0000] <annevk>
i.e. HTML is a string of text that can be styled using CSS

[03:53:00.0000] <jgraham>
That is maybe kind of true but it seems like an unsustainable mental model

[03:55:00.0000] <annevk>
/me finds http://www.visitmix.com/Opinions/Web-Standards-Gone-Wild

[03:55:01.0000] <gsnedders>
annevk: I linked that last night, jackass :P

[03:56:00.0000] <annevk>
go play outside :p

[03:56:01.0000] <Philip`>
It's a mental model that might have worked when you just used the string <H1>...</H1> for headings and the string <BR> for line breaks, but it breaks down when you use nested tables or nested divs

[03:56:02.0000] <Philip`>
(which everyone does nowadays)

[03:57:00.0000] <annevk>
i don't

[03:57:01.0000] <gsnedders>
from digg: <http://www.neatorama.com/2009/02/18/a-224-word-palindrome/>

[03:57:02.0000] <annevk>
admittedly i do grasp nowadays that markup is turned into an object model by browsers

[03:57:03.0000] <Philip`>
annevk: Well, okay, but I think you understand that HTML is a tree anyway :-)

[03:59:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: Or CSS. You can't use much CSS without understanding the treeiness

[04:00:00.0000] <roc>
Hixie: if you're looking for work, you could reply to the outstanding video/audio feedback while we still have a chance to do something about it

[04:01:00.0000] <Hixie>
roc: i have that pencilled in for april, but i can definitely move it forward if that would help

[04:02:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: You can use quite a bit, e.g. <style>h1 { font-color: red }</style> makes all the "<h1>...</h1>" strings red and you don't have to know anything about trees

[04:03:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: But simple element or attribute selectors are all you can use

[04:03:01.0000] <Philip`>
I suppose you could even think that the <div class=a> tag switches on the .a style, and </div> switches off the most recent style, and you don't have to realise there's actually a tree model hidden in there

[04:03:02.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Simple element and attribute selectors are all that most people use, so that's okay

[04:04:00.0000] <roc>
gsnedders: I think this one is better. A palindrome with a sex scene. http://www.spinelessbooks.com/2002/palindrome/index.html

[04:04:01.0000] <Philip`>
(The 'switch on/off' model is sometimes even better than the tree model, because it describes <b>...<i>...</b>...</i>)

[04:05:00.0000] <jgraham>
What fraction of pages don't have any descendant / child / other tree model selectors but do use CSS?

[04:05:01.0000] <Philip`>
/me likes http://www.evl.uic.edu/swami/crabcanon as a kind of higher-level palindrome

[04:06:00.0000] <zcorpan>
"Dan was editor of the original HTML 1.0 specification" - was he?

[04:06:01.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: I would assume it's a lot, because http://triin.net/archive/kool/webstat/figure-30.png says most pages don't use descendant selectors

[04:07:00.0000] <zcorpan>
(from http://www.visitmix.com/Opinions/Web-Standards-Gone-Wild )

[04:07:01.0000] <Philip`>
zcorpan: It links to http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/draft-ietf-iiir-html-01.txt which says he was

[04:11:00.0000] <jgraham>
The idea that specs are good iff they can be entirely implemented by a large number of "enthusiastic amatuer"s seems misguided

[04:13:00.0000] <jgraham>
Although html5lib is an example of part of HTML5 being implemented just like that

[04:13:01.0000] <Hixie>
given that entire OSes have been written by "a large number of "enthusiastic amatuer"s", i don't think that really narrows the scope down much

[04:14:00.0000] <annevk>
the main thing that bugs me is that he doesn't take into account that the Web became more complex as well

[04:14:01.0000] <annevk>
things grow

[04:14:02.0000] <Philip`>
/me sees Hixie's most recent blog post, and notes that he hates being a pedestrian when cyclists coming towards him have very bright lights, because it totally disorients him and he has to just stop and stand still and hope the cyclist moves around him

[04:14:03.0000] <annevk>
(a thing that only slightly bugs me is his XHTML 1.0 remark, which MS does not support and XHTML 1.0 actually depends on HTML 4.01 for all of its semantics)

[04:15:00.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: i turn off my light when somone is coming the other way

[04:15:01.0000] <zcorpan>
Philip`: ah, for some reason i thought it was just tim in the beginning

[04:15:02.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: That might be even worse because their eyes will have adjusted to the brightness of the light just before you turned it off, and then you'll be entirely invisible :-)

[04:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: (leaving only my backup light, which is on the dimmest setting)

[04:16:01.0000] <Hixie>
zc html 1.0 != the first html

[04:19:00.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: Frankly around Cambridge (and, I think Linköping too), getting the cyclists to have any light at all would be an improvement. Hell, getting them to not dress all in black and be drunk would be an improvement in many cases

[04:20:00.0000] <annevk>
if you're a proper cyclist you would not be in trouble regardless :)

[04:20:01.0000] <annevk>
you might need to be born in the Netherlands for that though, dunno

[04:21:00.0000] <jgraham>
annevk: In what sense in trouble?

[04:22:00.0000] <annevk>
bright lights, lack of light, drukness, etc.

[04:23:00.0000] <annevk>
/me is partially kidding

[04:33:00.0000] <annevk>
we're on BBC now: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7897931.stm

[04:33:01.0000] <annevk>
(might have been before, but it's new to me)

[04:33:02.0000] <annevk>
(and yes, it's not exactly the primary focus)

[04:35:00.0000] <jgraham>
Wow that article was a non-story

[04:35:01.0000] <jgraham>
Security researcher says "insecure websites are bad"

[04:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: heh

[04:37:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me comments on the visitmix blog post

[04:37:02.0000] <Hixie>
bed time now

[04:37:03.0000] <Hixie>
nn

[04:41:00.0000] <jcranmer>
jgraham: so, obviously, browsers must complain up the wazoo any time you visit a non-secure website

[04:42:00.0000] <jcranmer>
"Please click five times to be able to load this insecure website. Actually, make that six, since unsigned is obviously less secure than self-signed, so it should take more clicks...."

[04:53:00.0000] <annevk>
just having new EventSource() is somewhat appealing though I wonder why we'd keep it at all given Web Sockets

[04:54:00.0000] <annevk>
I guess it's simpler

[04:54:01.0000] <annevk>
and since it's format driven you could create cool extensions and such

[05:36:00.0000] <jgraham>
Is there a reason html5 doesn't allow details as a child of caption?

[05:37:00.0000] <zcorpan>
jgraham: same reason it doesn't allow <div> in <h1>

[05:37:01.0000] <jgraham>
Which is?

[05:38:00.0000] <zcorpan>
because it doesn't make sense? i'm not sure

[05:38:01.0000] <jgraham>
caption > details seems like a nice way to make tables that have a longer summary for those who need it without having really hidden metadata or restricting it to people that use screenreaders

[05:39:00.0000] <jgraham>
I guess authors might not go for it but I can't think of any way of reconciling "visible" with "authors will go with it"

[05:40:00.0000] <annevk>
rubys, I suppose I'm a bit critical, but I was mostly saying that a new format was not needed

[05:40:01.0000] <jgraham>
(it also parses OK in Presto / Gecko / HTML5)

[05:41:00.0000] <pesla>
Thats not funny, i get highlighted on '

[05:41:01.0000] <pesla>
critical

[05:41:02.0000] <pesla>
:P

[05:42:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: How do you make it have sensible styling and functionality in legacy and future UAs?

[05:43:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: First you convince Hixie that <legend> is a really bad idea. Then you make a js script to implement enough of <details>. Then you ignore ny cases you didn't already cover

[05:43:01.0000] <jgraham>
/me wonders why all his virtual desktops got shifted one left

[05:44:00.0000] <taf2>
hey, i'm using the html5 blob and would like a way to save a reference to that blob in a storage db...  say i write a file uploader... and want to save the upload incase of error to resume it

[05:44:01.0000] <taf2>
otherwise i need to prompt the user to select the same file again on errors to recover, if they left the page

[05:44:02.0000] <rubys>
annevk: go for it!

[05:45:00.0000] <rubys>
produce a RSS5.  I dare you.  I double dare you.

[05:46:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: That sounds like an awful lot of complexity, just to emulate the functionality that already works with a simple attribute

[05:47:00.0000] <zcorpan>
would RSS5 define error handling for Atom?

[05:47:01.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: Well "already works" has been debated.

[05:48:00.0000] <taf2>
anyone fimilar with the blob api... if there could be an id and away of loading the blob by id later

[05:48:01.0000] <taf2>
then that id could be stored in a sql store and recovered later

[05:48:02.0000] <annevk>
rubys, if it was not for these other fish I'm trying to fry, maybe

[05:48:03.0000] <rubys>
:-)

[05:48:04.0000] <taf2>
maybe a getBlobById  method?   and that would require user permissions?

[05:49:00.0000] <rubys>
If you actually had spare time, I personally would much rather see an XML5

[05:49:01.0000] <annevk>
taf2, HTML5 does not have blobs

[05:49:02.0000] <annevk>
taf2, in fact, WHATWG has no draft that defines blobs

[05:49:03.0000] <taf2>
annevk, oh... i thought this was related: http://code.google.com/apis/gears/api_blob.html

[05:50:00.0000] <annevk>
Gears != HTML5, despite what marketing departments tell you ;)

[05:50:01.0000] <taf2>
apologies if it is not... 

[05:50:02.0000] <zcorpan>
rubys: yeah, with default entities so that we can stop caring about the xhtml2 wg minting new doctypes

[05:50:03.0000] <annevk>
a blob API might be specified at some point by the W3C, but the details are a bit unclear at this point, taf2

[05:51:00.0000] <annevk>
XML5 is pretty much done, but there's no buy-in

[05:52:00.0000] <annevk>
just a lot of buzz

[05:52:01.0000] <rubys>
done?  as in an implementation that works?

[05:52:02.0000] <annevk>
there's a Python implementation

[05:53:00.0000] <annevk>
from which some sort of spec has been generated as well

[05:53:01.0000] <rubys>
that's not just a prototype, but something that you consider as something that might be useful?

[05:53:02.0000] <annevk>
missing details are attribute value normalization, character encoding sniffing, and >5 predefined entities iirc

[05:53:03.0000] <Philip`>
Has it been advertised at all, or mentioned anywhere other than a few posts on your blog?

[05:54:00.0000] <taf2>
annevk, ah okay, so this isn't the right place to discuss a possible blob api?  i guess what i'm finding is if a blob api does come about... it would be nice i it include some method of identifying itself and retrieving it... using the existing storage apis... 

[05:54:01.0000] <annevk>
rubys, if someone packages it it's pretty much like html5lib with a few missing bits

[05:54:02.0000] <annevk>
taf2, best place would be public-webapps⊙wo

[05:54:03.0000] <taf2>
annevk, thanks

[05:54:04.0000] <rubys>
python would make entities easy (it has a builtin function for this), and chardet could address sniffing

[05:55:00.0000] <annevk>
I mostly meant <?xml ... ?>

[05:55:01.0000] <rubys>
attribute value normalization, xml style, sucks

[05:55:02.0000] <annevk>
apparently infinite whitespace is allowed...

[05:55:03.0000] <annevk>
agreed

[05:55:04.0000] <Philip`>
annevk: You should sneakily add the XML5 code into html5lib, so it can gain widespread deployment before anyone even knows they should care about it

[05:55:05.0000] <annevk>
it would sort of break the design principles if that was changed

[05:55:06.0000] <rubys>
i'll put it on my list of things to look at, which unfortunately is also too long

[05:56:00.0000] <rubys>
Philip`: +1

[05:56:01.0000] <rubys>
I put a "liberal xml parser" in there, but would love to see it replaced with xml5.

[05:57:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me is more than happy with anything that replaces the lxp and is maintained

[05:58:00.0000] <jgraham>
Or at least keeps passing tests

[05:58:01.0000] <rubys>
feel free to rip out lxp

[05:58:02.0000] <jgraham>
Woo

[06:58:00.0000] <annevk>
so I looked at the charset registry, http://www.iana.org/assignments/charset-reg/TSCII was added in 2007

[07:00:00.0000] <Philip`>
"The TSCII scheme was collectively worked out through Net-based discussions in 1998."

[07:00:01.0000] <Philip`>
Maybe only the registration is new?

[07:01:00.0000] <annevk>
I suppose

[07:01:01.0000] <jgraham>
Seems to be unicode incompatible and motivated by having special codepoints for something not unlike ligatures

[07:02:00.0000] <annevk>
Unicode does not have the TAMIL character?

[07:02:01.0000] <annevk>
s*

[07:04:00.0000] <jgraham>
Doesn't have constant-vowel combinations as single codepoints

[07:05:00.0000] <jgraham>
So there isn't a 1:1 mapping between TSCII and Unicode

[07:06:00.0000] <Philip`>
(I don't think there's a 1:1 mapping between Unicode and anything except itself)

[07:07:00.0000] <annevk>
yeah, that seems like a weird definition of compatible to me

[07:07:01.0000] <jgraham>
Does unicode not have a 1:1 mapping with ascii?

[07:07:02.0000] <annevk>
Unicode is not an encoding

[07:08:00.0000] <annevk>
UTF-8 has a superset relation to US-ASCII if that's what you mean

[07:08:01.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: A 1:1 mapping between ASCII and Unicode would mean that every Unicode character could be mapped uniquely onto one ASCII character

[07:08:02.0000] <Philip`>
which isn't true because there's not nearly enough space

[07:09:00.0000] <jgraham>
OK, I meant a 1:1 mapping between ascii and unicode

[07:09:01.0000] <jgraham>
i.e. what annevk said

[07:10:00.0000] <annevk>
(that's not what I said :) )

[07:10:01.0000] <Philip`>
/me is confused as to who's talking about bytes and who's talking about characters, and who's talking about bijections and who's talking about injections :-)

[07:11:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me thinks a 1:1 mapping between a and b implies that for all items in a there exists a single item in b. It does not imply the reverse

[07:11:01.0000] <jgraham>
But maybe that is an abuse of English

[07:11:02.0000] <Philip`>
Wikipedia talks about "one-to-one function" (injection) vs "one-to-one correspondence" (bijection)

[07:11:03.0000] <Philip`>
so the term "one-to-one" is ambiguous

[07:13:00.0000] <jgraham>
OK, so what I apparently meant to say is that there is not an injection between TSCII and Unicode

[07:13:01.0000] <jgraham>
But I doubt that would have made me more clear

[07:13:02.0000] <Philip`>
Probably not :-)

[07:14:00.0000] <annevk>
but you can map all of it to Unicode?

[07:14:01.0000] <Philip`>
I assume the point is that there exists a single-code-unit character in TSCII which requires multiple code units in Unicode

[07:14:02.0000] <jgraham>
annevk: Yes, but sometimes a single codepoint becomes multiple codepoints

[07:14:03.0000] <Philip`>
Uh, "code unit" is probably the wrong term

[07:14:04.0000] <jgraham>
http://www.unicode.org/notes/tn15/Tscii2Unicode2.pdf

[07:21:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders what the limit is for the number of distinct XML parsers you can use in a piece of software while retaining your sanity

[07:26:00.0000] <annevk>


[07:28:00.0000] <Philip`>
annevk: That is sadly incompatible with the requirement to process XML data files

[07:31:00.0000] <zcorpan>
can't you process xml data files without an xml parser?

[07:32:00.0000] <Philip`>
Not without the new solution being far worse than using an XML parser

[07:36:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me 's current plan involves processing the same file with Xerces, libxml2 and E4X in different parts of the program

[08:11:00.0000] <annevk>
http://twitter.com/joshkim/statuses/1227092684 ?

[08:12:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: opera 10 joins "Moz & Safari" in your doctype table

[08:12:01.0000] <Philip`>
annevk: Seems like the obvious answer is "no"

[08:13:00.0000] <jgraham>
annevk: That's basically how adoption works. Although I wonder who was using XHTML2. I suspect no one but it was percieved that XHTML2 would happen eventually, now people are using HTML5 because it seems to be here now

[08:14:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: also, the statement about ie5 in the nutshell is getting a bit dated - no-one has cared about ie5 for quite some time now

[11:22:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Is there anyway to check whether a compressed HTTP response is conforming and can be decompressed?

[11:24:00.0000] <hendry>
gsnedders: `man curl` sez --compressed

[11:25:00.0000] <gsnedders>
hendry: Damnit. That means my code is broken. I don't like cURL anymore :P

[11:55:00.0000] <annevk>
oh geez

[11:55:01.0000] <annevk>
www-style is discussing localizing property names

[11:55:02.0000] <annevk>
where's markp to throw people of bridges

[11:58:00.0000] <Philip`>
I think you mean "localising"

[12:02:00.0000] <Philip`>
Yikes - I saw that thread this morning when it had half a dozen posts, including Adam Twardoch pointing out the absurdity of it

[12:02:01.0000] <Philip`>
I didn't imagine it would grow another thirty messages with people taking it seriously

[12:05:00.0000] <slightlyoff>
annevk: so it's clear: www-style is the problem we need to solve ;-)

[12:28:00.0000] <rubys>
annevk: s/of bridges/off bridges/

[12:29:00.0000] <virtuelv>
annevk: you read my twit, obviously

[12:29:01.0000] <virtuelv>
the only people who are to be thrown off bridges work in insurance

[12:30:00.0000] <virtuelv>
s/people/things/

[12:30:01.0000] <virtuelv>
</rant>

[12:35:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Write your CSS in linear b and no one will steal it

[12:43:00.0000] <annevk>
thanks rubys

[12:44:00.0000] <annevk>
virtuelv, no, it's a referene to a post from 2004 from markp

[12:49:00.0000] <Dashiva>
That one about unicode?

[13:00:00.0000] <virtuelv>
 this one? http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/07/06/nfc

[13:15:00.0000] <gsnedders>
hmm…

[13:15:01.0000] <gsnedders>
with gnuplot I'm having xtics overlap

[13:20:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Use less xtics?

[13:21:00.0000] <gsnedders>
:P

[13:56:00.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie, does your latest message to m.d.platform equate consensus with unanimity?

[13:58:00.0000] <Lachy>
JohnResig, yt?

[14:00:00.0000] <JohnResig>
Lachy: hey, yep

[14:02:00.0000] <Lachy>
JohnResig, if you've got time, can you update your selectors api tests to test for the new expected handling of null and undefined values?

[14:03:00.0000] <Lachy>
see my latest mail on public-webapps about it

[14:04:00.0000] <Lachy>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2009JanMar/0496.html

[14:05:00.0000] <JohnResig>
Lachy: so the result will be: No exception through, no elements found (since none are named null or undefined)

[14:06:00.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: it's unclear what kind of consensus is intended in the w3c, hence why i covered both options (unanimous agreemment and majority agreement)

[14:06:01.0000] <Lachy>
yeah, and since they become the strings "null" and "undefined", they should match any <null> and <undefined> elements within the document

[14:07:00.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie, ok I understand now

[14:07:01.0000] <Lachy>
the tests I've created for this do createElement("null") and add it to the document, and similarly for undefined, to test that

[14:09:00.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie, W3C consensus is not in the process document

[14:09:01.0000] <sayrer>
er, is in the document

[14:09:02.0000] <sayrer>
it's not unanimity

[14:09:03.0000] <Hixie>
the process document is unfortunately mostly a piece of fiction in practice

[14:09:04.0000] <sayrer>
Where unanimity is not possible, a group SHOULD strive to make consensus decisions

[14:09:05.0000] <Hixie>
well, that may be a bit harsh

[14:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
but my point is that the w3c doesn't always do what the process says it does

[14:10:01.0000] <Hixie>
and it's not clear to me what sam wants to do

[14:10:02.0000] <Hixie>
which is mostly what matters here

[14:10:03.0000] <sayrer>
I think I disagree, actually

[14:11:00.0000] <sayrer>
the tricky, unstated, part about consensus based processes is that some people's opinions count more than others

[14:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
in my experience at the w3c, that is not considered to be the case

[14:13:00.0000] <sayrer>
it is rarely admitted

[14:13:01.0000] <Hixie>
no i mean in practice it is not the case in my experience at w3c

[14:13:02.0000] <Hixie>
i've seen people who have no software, no deployed site, no users, and who rarely use the sites that a feature might be aimed for completely block a feature

[14:14:00.0000] <sayrer>
my experience working with Sam leads me to believe that will not be a concern here, but I agree that bad management can sink anything

[14:14:01.0000] <Hixie>
oh i'm not saying it's a concern. the point of my e-mail was just to ask him what his plan was, after having laid out several plans i was aware of being possible.

[14:15:00.0000] <Hixie>
(it certainly wasn't meant to be exhaustive)

[14:15:01.0000] <Hixie>
i'm basically just interested in what i can do to avoid the problem he predicted (namely, not being able to progress past october)

[14:16:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, sayrer, is this the post you're discussing? http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.platform/msg/c76460d93969aea9

[14:17:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[14:17:01.0000] <JohnResig>
Lachy: all changed http://ejohn.org/apps/selectortest/

[14:17:02.0000] <JohnResig>
Lachy: WebKit has 33 failing now, Firefox has 16

[14:20:00.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie, the point of establishing an iterative cycle is so that people don't feel it's now-or-never for their pet issue. Your suggestions sort of invite that kind of feedback.

[14:21:00.0000] <sayrer>
In some cases, the feature will appear later. Others never will, but that won't block the process.

[14:21:01.0000] <Lachy>
my internal desktop build of Opera fails 54, though I'm not sure how recent it's version of Presto is. I will try it in core tomorrow at work

[14:22:00.0000] <Lachy>
thanks JohnResig

[14:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: granted, though that will be more realistic once we have a real spec with a real test suite

[14:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: right now we're trynig to take a technology from infancy to 19 years old in one step, because anything less just delays the point at which the specs catch up with the technology.

[14:38:01.0000] <Hixie>
s/we're/I'm/, maybe

[14:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
that doesn't preclude the possibility of smaller steps happening, of course

[14:39:01.0000] <Hixie>
i think it'd be great to have an HTML 4.1 that just does the same thing but taking HTML from infancy to, say, 12 years old

[14:39:02.0000] <Hixie>
that is already a giant step though

[14:42:00.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie, I want to achieve interoperability for Code On Demand styles quickly

[14:43:00.0000] <sayrer>
I know you understand the advocacy value of certain stages of the W3C process

[14:43:01.0000] <sayrer>
witness Acid3

[14:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
not sure what you mean by "Code On Demand"

[14:44:01.0000] <sayrer>
where the interface is innovated by web applications instead of being added to clients

[14:44:02.0000] <Hixie>
and the WHATWG has enough reputation captial now that HTML5 could be fine even without the W3C stamp (modulo patent policy issues)

[14:45:00.0000] <Hixie>
you mean "writing web pages"?

[14:45:01.0000] <Hixie>
i don't understand

[14:45:02.0000] <Hixie>
(btw lest anyone misunderstand the above statement re whatwg or w3c, i do think it's better for html5 to be in the w3c)

[14:46:00.0000] <sayrer>
I mean web applications

[14:46:01.0000] <sayrer>
that aren't very transparent and add a lot procedural code

[14:46:02.0000] <Hixie>
if your goal is to make browsers have fewer bugs in the DOM APIs, then the way forward is test suites and fixing bugs.

[14:47:00.0000] <sayrer>
yes

[14:47:01.0000] <sayrer>
but test suites and fixing bugs need rules to drive them

[14:48:00.0000] <sayrer>
and fewer bugs in DOM APIs is good, but uniform DOMs from a given input are also needed

[14:49:00.0000] <sayrer>
In other words, I'm more interested in making it easy to write a color picker, than adding a color picker to browsers (though that may also be worth doing)

[14:53:00.0000] <Hixie>
html5 has plenty of rules :-)

[14:54:00.0000] <Hixie>
by which i mean, it would be fine to start writing test suites based on the html5 spec as it stands today

[14:54:01.0000] <Hixie>
we don't need the spec to be in last call or CR to do that

[14:55:00.0000] <Hixie>
(in particular, driving a smaller spec forward isn't going to help make browsers have fewer bugs)

[14:57:00.0000] <sayrer>
that doesn't match Acid3

[14:58:00.0000] <sayrer>
I think lots of the Acid3 tests are lame, but I have to admit it was effective

[14:58:01.0000] <virtuelv>
/me reads backlog, and just knows mr. last is going to quote stuff here, possibly with omissions

[14:58:02.0000] <olliej>
sayrer: are you suggesting that some (eg. svg) tests in acid3 were not flawless? :D

[14:59:00.0000] <olliej>
sayrer: s/flawless/useful

[15:00:00.0000] <sayrer>
olliej, just that they drove competition between us, but they're too far away from IE to raise the baseline in the way that Acid2 did

[15:00:01.0000] <sayrer>
with the exception of a few that are actually really awful and make experience for our users worse

[15:00:02.0000] <olliej>
sayrer: oh, i was thinking of the svg tests that only required the methods to not be undefined :D

[15:01:00.0000] <sayrer>
I didn't know about that one. My least favorite is the XML character encoding one.

[15:01:01.0000] <olliej>
sayrer: which one was that?

[15:01:02.0000] <sayrer>
the one that tests whether illegal bytes result in an XML parser halting and catching fire

[15:02:00.0000] <sayrer>
you guys always did that, we've had our expat hacked up to avoid that for years

[15:02:01.0000] <olliej>
sayrer: ah, joy :-/

[15:03:00.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: nothing stops someone from writing a test suite based on html5 today, as far as i can tell.

[15:03:01.0000] <sayrer>
though we use our XML parser for feeds directly

[15:03:02.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: i don't really understand what acid3 teaches us about the current situation

[15:03:03.0000] <sayrer>
like IE does

[15:03:04.0000] <olliej>
sayrer: i disliked the svg tests because most of them did not actually test anything useful -- that said they did get us to look at weaknesses in our svg impl, and make them better

[15:03:05.0000] <olliej>
sayrer: especially our old SMIL code that was truly awful

[15:04:00.0000] <sayrer>
yeah, well, SMIL is kinda awful

[15:04:01.0000] <olliej>
sayrer: but then, the old code did pass despite being buggy and incomplete

[15:04:02.0000] <olliej>
sayrer: yes

[15:04:03.0000] <Hixie>
putting the svg stuff in acid3 was such a mistake

[15:04:04.0000] <sayrer>
so I was upset that it became a priority

[15:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok time now that i'm done with e-mail and so forth time to take a break.

[15:11:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me just ignores email that he marks as "to deal with"

[15:11:01.0000] <gsnedders>
It works quite well

[15:24:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://research.zscaler.com/2009/02/practical-example-of-cssqli-using.html

[15:24:01.0000] <Philip`>
That talks about "client-side SQL injection", which doesn't appear to be SQL injection at all

[15:25:00.0000] <Philip`>
It seems to be saying that when you can use XSS to insert arbitrary code into a target page, you can read that origin's data

[15:25:01.0000] <Philip`>
(which might happen to include an SQL database)

[15:25:02.0000] <Philip`>
Fortunately the abbreviation "csSQLi" is horribly ugly so hopefully people won't start using that phrase when they're really just talking about XSS

[15:29:00.0000] <weinig>
Lachy: is calling querySelectorAll() with no parameters supposed to throw an exception?

[15:31:00.0000] <gsnedders>
I'm smart. I just split water all over myself trying to drink.

[15:32:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: You split water? You could make a pretty good power source by doing that and then burning the hydrogen and oxygen

[15:32:01.0000] <gsnedders>
*spilt

[15:33:00.0000] <Philip`>
The slides on http://research.zscaler.com/2009/02/practical-example-of-cssqli-using.html include one showing how csSQLi attacks are far more effective than normal SQL injection, because it's easier to use and lots of sites are vulnerable

[15:34:00.0000] <Philip`>
and fails to note that the data stored in client-side databases and the data stored in server-side databases are unlikely to be of equivalent value

[15:35:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me hates it when his wireless connection dies in the middle of a multi-line utterance and he has to switch to another computer

[15:36:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Which has the longer wavelength? Violet light or red light?

[15:36:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me should know this, but doesn't

[15:36:02.0000] <Philip`>
Red

[15:36:03.0000] <Philip`>
maybe

[15:36:04.0000] <Philip`>
definitely, hence why galaxies are red-shifted because they're moving away and their wavelengths are being stretched

[15:37:00.0000] <Philip`>
but I could be wrong

[15:37:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Philip`: I found it funny how he highlights closing the paragraph tag :)

[15:37:02.0000] <jwalden>
red is longer, lower energy, closer to radio

[15:40:00.0000] <Philip`>
Dashiva: When you do XSS attacks, it's considered highly impolite to make the resulting markup invalid

[15:40:01.0000] <Philip`>
so he's got to be very careful to get the right </p>s and <p>s

[15:41:00.0000] <Philip`>
(Actually he doesn't because he could just put the <script>s inside the <p> and it would be no worse)

[15:42:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me puts on Rattle & Hum, makes sure he can't see the window in which the DVD is playing, and goes back to work


2009-02-20
[16:58:00.0000] <jwalden>
/me snickers at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Feb/0083.html

[17:00:00.0000] <Hixie>
i use "infrared" vs "ultraviolet" to remember that red is lower in frequency

[17:00:01.0000] <Hixie>
infra = less, ultra = more

[17:01:00.0000] <gsnedders>
And now we have Hixie teaching us Latin :P

[17:02:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Next we'll be analyzing "super slow"

[17:21:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me wonders how many sig.fig. to give 11.8±14.3 as

[17:21:01.0000] <jcranmer>


[17:22:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Yeah, that seems to be the correct answer

[17:22:01.0000] <gsnedders>
So how do I state that

[17:22:02.0000] <gsnedders>
*?

[18:49:00.0000] <roc>
interesting, Alex Mogilevsky thinks that other browsers will be forced into harsh backwards-compatibility when they have more users

[18:50:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Does he adjust for IE's lack of updates for many years?

[18:50:01.0000] <slightlyoff>
roc: he might not be wrong, but remember his perspective

[18:50:02.0000] <slightlyoff>
roc: he's also tied to a SUPER slow update mechanism

[18:51:00.0000] <roc>
I think rather that they're tied into a SUPER slow update mechanism *because* of their backward compatibility requirements

[18:52:00.0000] <roc>
if each release is a compatibility mode you promise to support forever, you'd better not do too many releases

[18:52:01.0000] <karlushi>
Alex has a point. indeed

[18:55:00.0000] <Hixie>
roc: part of the problem is also that IE's compliance has been so bad that with each release they've had to break huge amounts of pages

[18:55:01.0000] <karlushi>
the only way out somehow is an environment with equally distributed market shares, then people use the common set of features. New features taking ages to come into place when all the tiny marketshares have implemented it the same.

[18:55:02.0000] <Hixie>
roc: whereas most other browsers can add features without anywhere near as much bug fixing breaking things

[18:55:03.0000] <roc>
Hixie: yes,

[18:55:04.0000] <Hixie>
roc: (also, they suck at fixing bugs. In IE7 they fixed things people were using for CSS hacks instead of fixing the underlying bugs in many cases, whereas they should have done that the other way around.)

[18:56:00.0000] <Hixie>
in short, i think alex is wrong :-)

[18:56:01.0000] <Hixie>
also, hopefully no browser will ever get to >25% market share again

[18:56:02.0000] <roc>
boy

[18:56:03.0000] <roc>
that could be a problem for us :-)

[18:56:04.0000] <Dashiva>
Any browser, or any major version of a browser?

[18:56:05.0000] <karlushi>
if/when BrowserCool Inc. comes to dominate the market, it will be somehow as bad as IE too, because people will start to develop for specific BrowserCool Inc. features.

[18:56:06.0000] <karlushi>
BrowserCool Inc. be open source or not

[18:57:00.0000] <jcranmer>
I'd say that 20-30% is a happy spot for the top browser

[18:58:00.0000] <jcranmer>
which would imply roughly 3-6 major browsers

[18:59:00.0000] <jcranmer>
2 is too few IMHO

[18:59:01.0000] <karlushi>
jcranmer: indeed

[19:03:00.0000] <karlushi>
hmm large market shares… another parameter is paid customers. That might be an issue for Opera in the mobile world. If you fix something which breaks the features developed for paid customers. 

[19:04:00.0000] <karlushi>
s/paid/paying/ ?

[19:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
Dashiva: any rendering engine

[19:19:00.0000] <roc>
since there are only 4 serious rendering engines, keeping them all at exactly 25% is going to be quite a balancing act

[19:23:00.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie, so it would be bad if Safari and Chrome both reached 13% market share?

[19:24:00.0000] <sayrer>
fwiw, I have hard time thinking that would be bad

[19:29:00.0000] <olliej>
roc: are you dismissing amaya? :-O

[19:29:01.0000] <olliej>
;)

[19:30:00.0000] <olliej>
sayrer: you'd need to lose a bit to get camino to 13% as well of course :D

[19:30:01.0000] <olliej>
sayrer: actually what are marketshare numbers for camino?

[19:30:02.0000] <roc>
hey, I didn't say what I thought the 4 engines were

[19:31:00.0000] <sayrer>
olliej, I don't think we collect that data

[19:31:01.0000] <olliej>
roc: well you did sya serious rendering engines, so i guess that precludes ie :D -- and webkit for a few hours after  hyatt lands large patches ;)

[19:47:00.0000] <sayrer>
http://blog.mozilla.com/rob-sayre/2009/02/19/google-turns-to-html-5-to-solve-offline-mobile-woes/

[19:47:01.0000] <sayrer>
just, you know, fyi

[20:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: yeah, as i keep telling people internally, i hope chrome doesn't get more than 12.5% market share :-)

[20:08:01.0000] <jcranmer>
judging from my statistics

[20:08:02.0000] <jcranmer>
it ain't got 2%

[20:09:00.0000] <sayrer>
it's impressive that they are statistically significant at this point

[20:09:01.0000] <Hixie>
getting even that much in a few months is quite impressive imho, yeah

[20:09:02.0000] <Hixie>
what sayrer said

[20:09:03.0000] <Dashiva>
It can compete with Opera for being the least popular major browser :)

[20:10:00.0000] <sayrer>
there may not be enough differentiation to give it a hockey stick, like I hear they want

[20:10:01.0000] <sayrer>
but there are nice things about the product

[20:10:02.0000] <jcranmer>
my statistics, which over-represents IE 6, has 67% IE, 24.5% FF, 4.9% Safari, 1.9% Chrome, 0.7% Unknown, 0.2% Opera, 0.1% SM or other gecko-based

[20:10:03.0000] <Hixie>
my main problem with chrome is it doesn't work on mac

[20:10:04.0000] <Hixie>
grrr

[20:10:05.0000] <sayrer>
I have like 4 Safari skins, dude

[20:11:00.0000] <sayrer>
;)

[20:11:01.0000] <Hixie>
i want the process separation :-)

[20:11:02.0000] <jcranmer>
if you take out the overrepresentation of IE 6, you get roughly 60% FF

[20:11:03.0000] <sayrer>
I think you mean the possible process separation

[20:11:04.0000] <sayrer>
you never what will happen with lots of tabs open

[20:11:05.0000] <sayrer>
never know

[20:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
i notice that you often quibble with the minor details of what i say

[20:12:01.0000] <Hixie>
for what it's worth unless i'm writing spec text i tend to be quite vague

[20:12:02.0000] <sayrer>
minor to you

[20:12:03.0000] <sayrer>
it looks like more of a worldview difference

[20:12:04.0000] <Hixie>
yes, minor to me

[20:12:05.0000] <sayrer>
I'm ok with that

[20:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'm fine with worldview differences, i just wish you wouldn't keep saying "no you don't mean that you mean [the same thing just with slightly more precision]"

[20:13:01.0000] <jcranmer>
I may or may not be indecisive or possibly vague in some things potentially dealing with decisions...

[20:13:02.0000] <Hixie>
it's tedious and annoying

[20:13:03.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie, hmm

[20:13:04.0000] <sayrer>
let me counter with

[20:13:05.0000] <sayrer>
http://twitter.com/sayrer/status/1224811146

[20:14:00.0000] <Hixie>
*shrug*

[20:14:01.0000] <sayrer>
exactly!

[20:15:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Keep work and play separate now

[20:15:01.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: i don't understand what you want from me

[20:15:02.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: re that tweet

[20:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: i try my ass off to help you, and all i get from you is grief

[20:17:00.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie, I think it is fair to say that I have complained too much without doing enough work. I plan to change that.

[20:17:01.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie, that tweet was about overuse of the socratic method in whatwg discussions

[20:17:02.0000] <Hixie>
i don't mind constructive complaints, in fact i welcome them whole heartedly

[20:17:03.0000] <Hixie>
i would go as far as to say i thrive on them

[20:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
my problem is with just pointing at things and saying they're wrong and not offering any alternatives -- like, what should we do instead of asking for people's goals? guess what they are?

[20:18:01.0000] <sayrer>
I don't think we agree on some substantive issues. It's not fair for me to expect you to do things my way. I have to do work if I want things done my way.

[20:19:00.0000] <jcranmer>
Hixie: obviously it's your job to fix stuff, everyone else is merely just pointing out problems

[20:19:01.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: not agreeing is fine, but instead of just saying you don't agree, can you say why you don't agree when you don't agree?

[20:19:02.0000] <jcranmer>
/me notices that many people get very quiet when asked about alternatives

[20:20:00.0000] <sayrer>
re: "pointing at things and saying they're wrong and not offering any alternatives" - that's exactly right

[20:20:01.0000] <sayrer>
but I think the discussion of alternatives is lacking concrete examples

[20:20:02.0000] <sayrer>
you have a concrete example

[20:20:03.0000] <Hixie>
well your tweet for example

[20:20:04.0000] <Hixie>
what should we do instead of asking people what their goals are?

[20:20:05.0000] <Hixie>
how can we evaluate proposals without knowing goals?

[20:21:00.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie, that was actually written before any of our most recent discussion

[20:21:01.0000] <sayrer>
the pattern is "oh, you want to do something like HTML 4.1, well OBVIOUSLY you need a rendering section"

[20:22:00.0000] <sayrer>
but I obviously included a crystal clear indication that I removed the Rendering section

[20:22:01.0000] <sayrer>
it's right there in the list of things I edited

[20:23:00.0000] <Hixie>
well in the case of the rendering section, the actual line of argumentation was "i want something for implementors that is 4.0 + canvas" (or some such), which led to the response saying that rendering would be necessary

[20:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
which seems correct

[20:23:02.0000] <Hixie>
but that goes back to why i ask for goals

[20:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
without knowing your goals, how can i know if the rendering section should be in or not?

[20:24:01.0000] <sayrer>
that's my point -- necessary and correct are the areas we are disagreeing on

[20:24:02.0000] <sayrer>
not even in direction, just magnitude

[20:24:03.0000] <Hixie>
if the goal is to provide implementors with an implementation guide, how is rendering not required? isn't that part of what implementors do?

[20:25:00.0000] <sayrer>
the Rendering section is non-normative

[20:25:01.0000] <sayrer>
what does it matte

[20:25:02.0000] <sayrer>
matter

[20:25:03.0000] <Hixie>
it's non-normative with the understanding that visual browsers are expected to follow it

[20:25:04.0000] <sayrer>
that doesn't sound like non-normative over here at Mozilla

[20:26:00.0000] <Hixie>
it's pretty normative for mozilla, apple, google, microsoft, and opera, yeah

[20:26:01.0000] <Hixie>
at least insofar as interop is desired

[20:26:02.0000] <Hixie>
(one could imagine that, e.g., minimo might not want to do the rendering the same way as desktop gecko)

[20:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
(which is why it's not actually normative)

[20:27:01.0000] <sayrer>
I hope there are always interop problems, I just hope they are always new ones

[20:27:02.0000] <Hixie>
well there will continue to be old ones if we don't include the rendering section in the spec the browser vendors implement :-)

[20:28:00.0000] <sayrer>
I am not against the Rendering section

[20:29:00.0000] <sayrer>
I don't want you to delete it from your document, for example

[20:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
you seem to be arguing against my arguing that if browser vendors are the target audience, there should be a rendering section

[20:30:01.0000] <sayrer>
No, it's just a timing issue

[20:30:02.0000] <sayrer>
there should be a rendering section

[20:31:00.0000] <Hixie>
i don't understand what is a timing issue. could you elaborate?

[20:32:00.0000] <sayrer>
I don't think it needs to be in the document I am working on. A new document that obsoletes mine should appear before we hope to get interoperation on that section.

[20:33:00.0000] <Hixie>
in what way does this apply to the rendering section (which is mostly already implemented) but not the parser (which has zero shipping implementations)?

[20:33:01.0000] <Hixie>
(the rendering section is far closer to reality than the parser)

[20:34:00.0000] <sayrer>
the existence of reset.css files make the rendering section not that important, aiui

[20:34:01.0000] <Hixie>
that seems to be a very different argument.

[20:35:00.0000] <sayrer>
ok

[20:35:01.0000] <Hixie>
reset.css only covers a small fraction of the rendering section; it doesn't cover, e.g., all the processing of legacy presentational attributes, etc

[20:35:02.0000] <sayrer>
oh, that's true

[20:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
i still don't understand how my line of argumentation for including the rendering section is incorrect, given the above

[20:36:01.0000] <sayrer>
do you think anyone will change their rendering of legacy presentational attributes in the timeframe I am shooting for?

[20:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
what timeframe are you shooting for?

[20:37:01.0000] <sayrer>
something close to the charter as written today (haha, I know)

[20:37:02.0000] <Hixie>
(and more importantly, i don't understand how this line of argumentation is wrong even at the metalevel. Why is it wrong for me to ask what your goals are, what the timeframe is, etc? you seemed to indicate in your very public twitter that somehow this is a fundamentally incorrect approach.)

[20:38:00.0000] <sayrer>
the questions aren't wrong

[20:38:01.0000] <sayrer>
the replies to the answers are wrong

[20:38:02.0000] <Hixie>
how so?

[20:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
re the timeframe, i don't see any way that we can get a complete test suite for anything remotely the size of what you are proposing within 15 months, so i don't see any way to achieve that timetable.

[20:39:01.0000] <Hixie>
in fact, i don't think it would be realistic to expect HTML_4_ to reach the REC point on that timetable on that same timeframe

[20:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
let alone anything with the level of detail and interop aims of HTML5

[20:40:01.0000] <sayrer>
because they level requirements that the answer does not necessarily imply. your assertion that leaving some things as they are in HTML4 makes a spec "pointless" is a good example.

[20:40:02.0000] <Hixie>
i am certainly open to contradiction, if you have an argument that shows i'm wrong to say that

[20:41:00.0000] <sayrer>
what if I make a @name conforming with no clarification

[20:41:01.0000] <sayrer>
<a name>, to be clear

[20:41:02.0000] <Hixie>
conforming for authors?

[20:42:00.0000] <sayrer>
for everyone

[20:42:01.0000] <Hixie>
i don't understand

[20:42:02.0000] <Hixie>
how is <a name> not already detailed in HTML5?

[20:42:03.0000] <sayrer>
it is, it's just non-conforming for authors, right?

[20:42:04.0000] <Hixie>
right

[20:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
(this is just what XHTML 1.1 changed, HTML5 doesn't do anything new here)

[20:43:01.0000] <sayrer>
XHTML does not constitute a valid precedent for me

[20:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'm not claiming it to be a valid precedent, just saying that that's where the rule came from

[20:44:01.0000] <sayrer>
ok

[20:44:02.0000] <sayrer>
so, if I make it conforming for authors, with no real justification other than not changing HTML4, is that a pointless spec?

[20:44:03.0000] <gavin_>
Hixie: do you think it is possible for a spec that is incomplete in your eyes to also be useful?

[20:45:00.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: authoring criteria are orthogonal to what i'm talking about when i talk about things being vague and undefined.

[20:45:01.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: specifically, it's the implementation conformance criteria that i'm worried about if the goal is to have a spec for implementors.

[20:46:00.0000] <gavin_>
seems to me that your disagreement with sayrer stems from the implication that you don't

[20:46:01.0000] <Hixie>
gavin_: yes, an incomplete spec can be helpful, if it's is a work in progress and will become a complete spec before it is finished

[20:46:02.0000] <Hixie>
gavin_: however a spec like HTML4, which leaves massive things undefined, is actually more harmful than helpful on the long run.

[20:47:00.0000] <gavin_>
don't you think there is a broad spectrum between "html4" and "html5"?

[20:47:01.0000] <gavin_>
you seem to think there can be no middle ground

[20:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
gavin_: yes, html5 has covered much of that spectrum as it develops. But for any particular feature, leaving things undefined is worse than not having them at all.

[20:48:01.0000] <Hixie>
gavin_: so while the spec is a work in progress it's fine to be, well, a work in progress. But when it's called finished, if it has incomplete parts, IMHO that's just going to be harmful.

[20:48:02.0000] <gavin_>
I don't think sayrer is planning on "leaving things undefined"

[20:48:03.0000] <gavin_>
he is just omitting them

[20:48:04.0000] <Hixie>
omitting _features_ is fine

[20:49:00.0000] <gavin_>
i.e. "not having them at all"

[20:49:01.0000] <Hixie>
sure

[20:49:02.0000] <Hixie>
but removing the rendering section, for example, isn't removing a feature

[20:49:03.0000] <Hixie>
it would be like removing security, or removing performance

[20:49:04.0000] <Hixie>
it's not a feature

[20:49:05.0000] <Hixie>
it's an intrinsic part of features

[20:50:00.0000] <gavin_>
I'm not sure I agree that a spec absolutely must define everything to be beneficial rather than harmful

[20:50:01.0000] <Hixie>
what would you consider ok to leave undefined?

[20:51:00.0000] <sayrer>
you're changing the subject

[20:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
what was the subject?

[20:52:01.0000] <sayrer>
the better question is "what must be defined in order to help the Web"

[20:52:02.0000] <Hixie>
that is certainly another question, i don't know if it's better or worse

[20:52:03.0000] <Hixie>
i'm not really sure how to answer that question

[20:53:00.0000] <Hixie>
"everything" seems like an easy, yet likely inaccurate, answer

[20:54:00.0000] <Hixie>
i think the original question about goals is still one that hasn't been answered properly, though; in particular your comment regarding timelines has returned me to a state of confusion

[20:55:00.0000] <gavin_>
I think the current HTML5 spec, with the rendering section omitted, is a useful document

[20:55:01.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: are you really looking to publish something that has two complete implementations in 15 months along with a test suite to prove it?

[20:55:02.0000] <sayrer>
I think you mean you don't understand the answer to the goals question

[20:55:03.0000] <sayrer>
the answer is proper, from where I sit

[20:55:04.0000] <Hixie>
ok, i don't understand the question (didn't i just say telling me i meant something else was annoying to me?)

[20:55:05.0000] <Hixie>
er

[20:55:06.0000] <Hixie>
don't understand the answer

[20:56:00.0000] <Hixie>
gavin_: i think it's useful, yes, but i think it would be harmful to publish a spec as a REC without it

[20:56:01.0000] <sayrer>
yes, but I also said deeming what is proper/required/implied is annoying

[20:56:02.0000] <Hixie>
so i stopped doing that

[20:56:03.0000] <sayrer>
almost!

[20:57:00.0000] <Hixie>
seriously though, are you really looking to publish something that has two complete implementations in 15 months along with a test suite to prove it?

[20:57:01.0000] <sayrer>
it looks tough

[20:57:02.0000] <Hixie>
it looks like it would involve a lot of test writing in your near future :-)

[20:58:00.0000] <sayrer>
but I'm willing to keep cutting and write tests, too

[20:58:01.0000] <Hixie>
the problem is there's only so much you can cut

[20:58:02.0000] <gavin_>
Hixie: I'm not convinced that that is true

[20:58:03.0000] <Hixie>
e.g. if you cut the parser, you can't test anything anymore

[20:59:00.0000] <sayrer>
you're right that there is a point where fat turns to bone

[21:00:00.0000] <Hixie>
i think you would hit that point long before finding a completely interoperable subset

[21:01:00.0000] <sayrer>
I agree, that doesn't bother me until 15 months from now

[21:02:00.0000] <Hixie>
ah, i had assumed that you were attempting an achievable goal :-)

[21:02:01.0000] <Hixie>
if your goal is something that can't be done, then i guess i don't really have any really useful feedback

[21:02:02.0000] <sayrer>
same to you, buddy. Sam warned you already.

[21:03:00.0000] <Hixie>
i think we can get two completely interoperable implementations by 2022

[21:03:01.0000] <Hixie>
along with a test suite

[21:03:02.0000] <sayrer>
cool

[21:03:03.0000] <Hixie>
hopefully i can take a sabbatical after that, too

[21:03:04.0000] <sayrer>
but those are not the only ingredients you need

[21:03:05.0000] <Hixie>
oh?

[21:04:00.0000] <Hixie>
what else do we need

[21:04:01.0000] <sayrer>
unless you move somewhere outside the w3c

[21:04:02.0000] <Hixie>
we started outside the w3c

[21:04:03.0000] <sayrer>
ok

[21:04:04.0000] <Hixie>
it's not clear to me the w3c will still exist in 2022

[21:04:05.0000] <Hixie>
they're in enough financial trouble as it is

[21:04:06.0000] <sayrer>
fair point

[21:05:00.0000] <Hixie>
having said that, that doesn't mean that i don't value getting w3c working group consensus

[21:05:01.0000] <Hixie>
but i think that's achievable too

[21:05:02.0000] <sayrer>
interesting

[21:06:00.0000] <sayrer>
achievable despite what the chair tells you?

[21:06:01.0000] <sayrer>
because i had assumed that you were attempting an achievable goal

[21:06:02.0000] <Hixie>
i think sam has a distorted view of what the bulk of the working group agrees to

[21:07:00.0000] <Hixie>
the few votes we've had have had just as much noise before them, yet in all cases so far they passed with overwhelming support

[21:08:00.0000] <sayrer>
a pyrrhic victory is one possible outcome

[21:08:01.0000] <Hixie>
i don't think 95% support is pyrrhic

[21:08:02.0000] <Hixie>
any group with three hundred people will always have some vocal disagreement

[21:08:03.0000] <Hixie>
whatever the topic

[21:09:00.0000] <sayrer>
I give your vote more weight than mine, for example

[21:09:01.0000] <Hixie>
i would likely abstain from most votes of this nature

[21:09:02.0000] <Hixie>
as i have in the past

[21:09:03.0000] <sayrer>
hypothetically speaking

[21:09:04.0000] <sayrer>
I don't believe I've voted either

[21:09:05.0000] <Hixie>
but i mean, if you assume that 1% of all people will disagree with anything, which is probably pretty accurate, then 300 people means 3 formal objections for any proposal

[21:09:06.0000] <Hixie>
and we've had fewer than that in the past

[21:10:00.0000] <sayrer>
consensus is not voting, and it's not unanimity

[21:10:01.0000] <Hixie>
sure

[21:10:02.0000] <Hixie>
i do hope to find out how sam intends to establish consensus in a group of mostly quiet observers

[21:10:03.0000] <sayrer>
would I want to win a vote over the objections of WebKit? no. even if it were 300 to 3.

[21:10:04.0000] <Hixie>
(it isn't clear to me how to do that)

[21:11:00.0000] <sayrer>
well, there are two ways of getting consensus. the IETF uses both, at different phases

[21:12:00.0000] <sayrer>
one is "no objections"

[21:12:01.0000] <sayrer>
and the other is "we need positive support for this to move forward"

[21:13:00.0000] <sayrer>
silence is dissent, or silence is assent

[21:15:00.0000] <Hixie>
well the thing is we'll never have no objections, and we'll always have enough support to bring anything forward, basically

[21:15:01.0000] <Hixie>
neither really works with groups this size

[21:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
i agree that there are certain groups -- implementors in particular -- who get veto votes

[21:16:01.0000] <sayrer>
you don't have support to bring your document forward

[21:16:02.0000] <sayrer>
so there are at least some edge cases

[21:16:03.0000] <Hixie>
(but i'm taking care of that long before we get to a consensus check)

[21:16:04.0000] <Hixie>
oh, i disagree

[21:16:05.0000] <Hixie>
well

[21:16:06.0000] <sayrer>
interesting

[21:16:07.0000] <Hixie>
the document isn't finished

[21:16:08.0000] <Hixie>
but notwithstanding that issue, i think i could find plenty of people to support publication

[21:17:00.0000] <sayrer>
that covers one type of consensus

[21:17:01.0000] <Hixie>
the problem is with a group this size it becomes more a matter of canvassing and PR than about technical quality

[21:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
like i said, we'll never have no objections

[21:18:01.0000] <Hixie>
for anything

[21:18:02.0000] <Hixie>
or at least, anything of any importance

[21:18:03.0000] <sayrer>
I think HTML5 already suffers from that problem (canvassing and PR)

[21:18:04.0000] <Hixie>
in the working group?

[21:18:05.0000] <Hixie>
or externally

[21:18:06.0000] <sayrer>
both

[21:19:00.0000] <sayrer>
but that's changing the subject

[21:19:01.0000] <Hixie>
externally, not much we can do about it. i think it's ridiculous, but it all rather started with the press release when the first draft was released, which i objected to but that, as you say, is another story

[21:19:02.0000] <sayrer>
I think you need cooperation that you don't have to get a good result

[21:19:03.0000] <Hixie>
internally, i'm not sure i see it, but i might just be ignoring it

[21:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
in what sense?

[21:20:01.0000] <Hixie>
as far as i can tell we have the cooperation of dozens of people from many vendors

[21:20:02.0000] <Hixie>
i mean just look at the quality of the feedback

[21:20:03.0000] <Hixie>
especially on the whatwg list

[21:21:00.0000] <sayrer>
I don't read the whatwg list regularly anymore. The feedback looks good, I agree, but you don't have a good percentage weighted against browser market share.

[21:21:01.0000] <Hixie>
I agree that Microsoft's involvement is lacking

[21:21:02.0000] <Hixie>
not sure what to do about that

[21:21:03.0000] <sayrer>
so is Mozilla's

[21:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh no, mozilla people are heavily involved

[21:22:01.0000] <sayrer>
somewhat involved

[21:22:02.0000] <Hixie>
roc, sicking, doublec, and hsivonen are all giving regular feedback on their various parts

[21:22:03.0000] <sayrer>
yep

[21:22:04.0000] <Hixie>
and i'm sure i've just insulted people by omission :-)

[21:22:05.0000] <Dashiva>
Poor Boris

[21:23:00.0000] <Hixie>
bz, too, yeah

[21:23:01.0000] <sayrer>
so, 5 people

[21:23:02.0000] <jwalden>
/me feigns mock outrage

[21:23:03.0000] <Hixie>
jwalden too

[21:23:04.0000] <jwalden>
barely

[21:23:05.0000] <jwalden>
I took six months off :-)

[21:23:06.0000] <sayrer>
but I don't think any of them have authored large bits of your doc

[21:23:07.0000] <jwalden>
is that really a problem?

[21:23:08.0000] <Hixie>
and aaronl before his life changed recently

[21:24:00.0000] <jwalden>
I don't think it's a problem if we're not writing, so long as we're feedbacking :-)

[21:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
nobody except me has authored large bits of html5

[21:24:02.0000] <Hixie>
i've written every word

[21:24:03.0000] <sayrer>
words yes, ideas no

[21:24:04.0000] <Hixie>
certainly not ideas, no

[21:24:05.0000] <Hixie>
many ideas come from the mozilla world

[21:24:06.0000] <Hixie>
certainly more are always welcome

[21:25:00.0000] <sayrer>
this isn't really going anywhere. main point: Apple, Google, Opera are overrepresented, Mozilla in the middle, IE underreperesented.

[21:25:01.0000] <Hixie>
well i'm certainly always happy to get more involvement from mozilla and microsoft

[21:25:02.0000] <sayrer>
not sure that is something to be fixed

[21:26:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'm hardly going to turn other people away though :-)

[21:26:01.0000] <sayrer>
but the fact remains

[21:26:02.0000] <sayrer>
that is actually a point of disagreement

[21:26:03.0000] <sayrer>
you should have told Apple and Google to go write a SQL spec

[21:26:04.0000] <Hixie>
and told mozilal to go write a registerProtocolHandler spec?

[21:26:05.0000] <Hixie>
mozilla

[21:26:06.0000] <sayrer>
sure

[21:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
i don't see why

[21:27:01.0000] <sayrer>
but maybe that boomerang comes back with you writing the SQL spec

[21:27:02.0000] <sayrer>
separately

[21:27:03.0000] <sayrer>
I get that

[21:27:04.0000] <Hixie>
i guess i should also have told mozilla to do the localstorage api elsewhere

[21:27:05.0000] <sayrer>
yep

[21:27:06.0000] <Hixie>
but at the end of the day, that would just have meant that none of those sections would exist

[21:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
it's not like there are editors out there waiting for things to do

[21:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
i've been asking for people to take these bits out of html5 for months, in some cases years

[21:28:02.0000] <sayrer>
I dunno, there are lots of things specified for Gears that aren't in any official spec

[21:28:03.0000] <sayrer>
they still exists, as far as I can see

[21:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
unfortunately for me, i don't control google's allocation of resources

[21:29:01.0000] <sayrer>
and I have been asking you to take these things out of HTML5 for months, if not years

[21:29:02.0000] <sayrer>
stalemate is over

[21:29:03.0000] <sayrer>
I took them out

[21:29:04.0000] <Hixie>
taking them out is only half the problem, they still have to be somewhere

[21:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
(and it's the trivial half of the problem)

[21:30:01.0000] <sayrer>
maybe. maybe they are sucky features

[21:30:02.0000] <sayrer>
I don't pretend to know which are which

[21:33:00.0000] <Hixie>
anyway

[21:33:01.0000] <sayrer>
most importantly, please proceed with your document

[21:33:02.0000] <sayrer>
I don't agree with everything, but I am not in the stop energy business

[21:33:03.0000] <Hixie>
localStorage and Database will be removed before last call, so they're not relevant to the consensus issue in the htmlwg

[21:34:00.0000] <Hixie>
well i'm glad to hear it

[21:35:00.0000] <Hixie>
it doesn't always feel like that's the case :-)

[21:35:01.0000] <sayrer>
it hasn't always been

[21:35:02.0000] <sayrer>
and I was wrong to behave that way

[21:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
woah, it got late

[21:36:01.0000] <Hixie>
i gotta go

[21:36:02.0000] <Hixie>
bbl

[21:36:03.0000] <sayrer>
k, later

[21:36:04.0000] <Hixie>
good talking to you though

[23:10:00.0000] <hsivonen>
http://intertwingly.net/stats/internalsearches.html given me the YSoD

[23:10:01.0000] <hsivonen>
s/given/gives/

[23:10:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip` been searching?

[00:21:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: Yes, I think that was me :-(

[00:22:00.0000] <Philip`>
(I didn't intend to break the internalsearches page, since I didn't even known it existed until after I'd been trying to break the search results page)

[00:40:00.0000] <Philip`>
"I think it is fair to say that I have complained too much without doing enough work. I plan to change that." - I wish the HTML WG had more of that attitude :-)

[00:40:01.0000] <Philip`>
Well, more of the second sentence of that

[00:59:00.0000] <jwalden>
cleverly done, regardless :-)

[01:01:00.0000] <Philip`>
You don't need to be at all clever to break XML, you just have to shove U+FFFE into every text box and query string you can find

[01:01:01.0000] <Philip`>
It's like XSS, where you just have to shove < and " and ' into everywhere, but it's even easier because you get immediate feedback on success

[01:14:00.0000] <jwalden>
perhaps

[01:14:01.0000] <jwalden>
maybe it's a small victory given text-processing standards being as they are

[01:15:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: Don't use gnuplot

[01:17:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders how something like XOM (as opposed to appending strings and passing them to 'print') would solve the problem of the internalsearches page being broken by characters that are (presumably) scraped from an Apache log file

[01:18:00.0000] <Philip`>
I assume you'd just get a server-side error message instead of a client-side error message, which isn't much of an improvement

[01:27:00.0000] <annevk>
so did the former Youtube guy just say Chrome is implementing <video>?

[01:27:01.0000] <annevk>
sounds nice

[01:32:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: at least you could drop stuff on a per-entry basis by catching XOM exceptions very near the point where they are thrown

[01:32:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: as opposed to letting them propagate far enough to crash your server app

[01:33:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: Hmm, I suppose that could work

[01:33:01.0000] <Philip`>
Oh no, <canvas> spec changes, now my test scripts will be outdated and broken :-(

[01:45:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: Sorry Master. What should I use instead Master?

[01:45:01.0000] <olliej>
annevk: well given webkit already supports <video> and chrome had disabled it i refuse to believe it would be significant work for them

[01:45:02.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: Almost anything. Veusz is pretty nice

[01:46:00.0000] <jgraham>
disclaimer: Veusz was written by a postdoc I worked with and I have contributed a little

[01:46:01.0000] <olliej>
annevk: the gtk people got <video> running with gstreamer in just a few days once we'd got it all implemented

[01:46:02.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: So it's probably buggy?

[01:46:03.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: At least I know the wavelengths of ligt

[01:47:00.0000] <jgraham>
*light

[01:48:00.0000] <olliej>
/me waits for chrome to nonetheless talk about how awesome they are for implementing a stunning new spec that was already implemented more than a year ago in the engine they use for their browser

[01:48:01.0000] <annevk>
olliej, interesting

[01:48:02.0000] <olliej>
annevk: safari3.1 shipped with video in march last year, we had the basics implemented at the end of the previous year iirc

[01:49:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me had <video> with rotations and reflections in WebKitGTK embedded in an OpenGL application, and it even mixed the audio with the applicaton's OpenAL stuff properly, which was quite impressive

[01:49:01.0000] <olliej>
annevk: it's reasons like that i get irritated by the quantity of standards chrome explicitly disabled in webkit

[01:50:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: https://gna.org/projects/veusz/

[01:52:00.0000] <hsivonen_>
Am I still connected?

[01:52:01.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen_: You seem to be

[01:52:02.0000] <hsivonen_>
yes, but with wrong nick

[01:53:00.0000] <Lachy>
What is Rob's draft that rubys is referring to at the end of this? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Feb/0085.html  (I hope he's not referring to that stuff Rob Burns produced on the HTML4all wiki)

[01:53:01.0000] <annevk>
from Rob Sayre

[01:54:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: http://people.mozilla.com/~sayrer/2009/02/15/html5.html

[01:54:01.0000] <gsnedders>
There's no TOC :(

[01:54:02.0000] <gsnedders>
/me pimps that spec

[01:54:03.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: context at http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.platform/browse_thread/thread/0c2bbb6ed726800b

[02:00:00.0000] <Lachy>
I don't understand the point of it. From the description sayrer gave, it seems to include only features that already existed in HTML4, making it little more than just a redefinition of HTML4 in better terms. But what's the point of having that?!

[02:01:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: also <canvas>

[02:03:00.0000] <jgraham>
AFAICT the point seems to be that sayrer wants to get a W3C approved document out that has detailed implementation requirements compared to HTML4 for the same (roughly) featureset in the belief that this will cause implementors to prioritise those features (e.g. the new parser) above features in the HTML 5 draft

[02:04:00.0000] <jgraham>
This seems to me to be a misunderstanding of the way that browser vendors set their priorities

[02:05:00.0000] <jgraham>
I guess he might be particularly interested in the case of MS who have been known to use "only a draft" as an excuse before for e.g. CSS 2.1

[02:08:00.0000] <annevk>
I suppose it might be useful

[02:08:01.0000] <Philip`>
And when MS implements bits of the HTML5 draft, the draft then changes underneath them and their implementation is no longer correct

[02:08:02.0000] <annevk>
if it actually works out in the time frame he wants to

[02:08:03.0000] <Philip`>
so they can't win :-)

[02:10:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: That is a fundamental problem of implementing standards. Someone has to move first. (Well the other opion is to have a reference implementation I guess but good luck with that on HTML5)

[02:10:01.0000] <Hixie>
man, the summary="" discussion is actually getting real data now

[02:10:02.0000] <Hixie>
from the "keep it" camp

[02:10:03.0000] <Hixie>
i'm impressed

[02:11:00.0000] <Hixie>
there's actually reason to reopen the discussion now

[02:11:01.0000] <Lachy>
I don't see it as useful at all. Sayrer's draft can't reach REC before HTML5 does because if it does, then it won't reflect any subsequent changes in HTML5

[02:12:00.0000] <Lachy>
so at best, it can be published in sync with HTML5, but in that case, it's nothing but HTML5 with sections defining most new features hidden

[02:12:01.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: Why would it have to reflect any subsequent changes in HTML5?

[02:12:02.0000] <Lachy>
because then we'd have 2 normative documents defining HTML5 with conflicting requirements

[02:13:00.0000] <jgraham>
In principle it can define HTML4.5 or whatever

[02:13:01.0000] <Philip`>
Just change its name to "HTML4.1" and then it won't be a problem

[02:13:02.0000] <jgraham>
There is a problem is the parser algorithms don't remain exactly in sync for example

[02:13:03.0000] <Lachy>
but the whole idea of doing that is just pointless

[02:13:04.0000] <Philip`>
(or at least no more of a problem than having HTML4 and HTML5 both normative with conflicting requirements)

[02:14:00.0000] <Hixie>
i think it'd be pretty cool to have a 4.1 that was in between 4 and 5 (4's features with 5's detail)

[02:14:01.0000] <annevk>
yup

[02:14:02.0000] <Lachy>
but why?

[02:14:03.0000] <Lachy>
what difference does it make?

[02:15:00.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: It seems there's a point in getting a complete stable tested implemented version of HTML4 even if it doesn't have all the features that HTML5 adds, because it'll make the platform core more solid

[02:15:01.0000] <Philip`>
s/HTML4/HTML/

[02:15:02.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: oh it would be purely a PR stunt, i don't think it would affect implementations at all

[02:15:03.0000] <annevk>
if he can manage to take it to REC in <2 years as he proposes I think that would be very cool

[02:16:00.0000] <Lachy>
so just look at the requirments in HTML5 to implement the stuff that was included in HTML4. At most, that requires a stylesheet to hide the sections of the new features. Not a new potentially conflicting spec

[02:16:01.0000] <Lachy>
well, I'm opposed to doing stupid PR stunts

[02:16:02.0000] <Philip`>
What about clever PR stunts? ;-)

[02:16:03.0000] <Hixie>
i don't think it would get to REC and earlier than HTML5

[02:16:04.0000] <Lachy>
Philip`, sure. But this clearly isn't one

[02:39:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me gets annoyed at Hixie using "several messages" as a subject line

[02:39:01.0000] <gsnedders>
It isn't overly useful to say what it's about

[02:39:02.0000] <gsnedders>
several messages about what?

[02:39:03.0000] <gsnedders>
meh.

[02:39:04.0000] <gsnedders>
/rant

[02:39:05.0000] <Hixie>
pine automatically sets it to that when i reply to multiple messages that have differnet subject liens

[02:39:06.0000] <gsnedders>
pine--

[02:39:07.0000] <Hixie>
i usually fix it, occasionally i don't notice that teh thread changes subject line

[02:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
the real -- in my book is for the user agents that keep screwing up the subject lines

[02:42:00.0000] <Lachy>
wtf? I thought we had pointless discussions on public-html. But now I've seen the 'Why "color"?' thread on www-style!

[02:42:01.0000] <annevk>
what is the use case for videoHeight/videoWidth btw? why doesn't it apply to <img>?

[02:44:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me dares to look at the thread he's heard so much about on www-style

[02:44:01.0000] <gsnedders>
(I haven't looked at it since the Armenian reference)

[02:45:00.0000] <annevk>
since then there was a klingon reference

[02:45:01.0000] <hsivonen>
I'm glad tantek called the troll. I wish something were done about the trolling on public-html, too.

[02:46:00.0000] <gsnedders>
annevk: Yeah, I've seen that now

[02:46:01.0000] <annevk>
and a certain Philip TAYLOR was seriously upset that glazou did not want localized property names

[02:46:02.0000] <annevk>
stuff like that cracks me up

[02:46:03.0000] <Philip`>
(Not me!)

[02:46:04.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: Lies.

[02:47:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: it's not funny when you've seen similar things proposed seriously for XML vocabularies

[02:48:00.0000] <annevk>
it's the reason for XML 1.1

[02:48:01.0000] <hsivonen>
not precisely, but close

[02:48:02.0000] <annevk>
and supposedly XML 1.0 5th

[02:49:00.0000] <Philip`>
I'm not sure Bjoern Hoehrmann's reference to Lingua::Romana::Perligata is an entirely great example of language localisation that is not an utter waste of time

[02:49:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: No spoilers, man!

[02:50:00.0000] <Philip`>
(Well, it's not a waste of time to the extent that it looks like a pretty clever hack, but it's not exactly intended for practical usage)

[02:52:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~damian/papers/HTML/Perligata.html - "inserto stringum tum unum tum duo excerpementum da. # $insert = substr($string,1,2);"

[02:52:01.0000] <Philip`>
"You tum entered inquementum tum wordum tum novumversum oraculo scribe." - that's not real Latin :-(

[02:54:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me notes that the same author wrote the Quantum::Superpositions module, which allows Perl variables to store a superposition of values

[02:56:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me notes Perl is crazy anyway

[02:56:01.0000] <Philip`>
Yes, but not usually *that* crazy

[02:58:00.0000] <jgraham>
Hmm. How does it work? It just allows variables to hold multiple values and return one at random? Or something more clever?

[03:01:00.0000] <Philip`>
A variable can hold multiple values, and can be combined with other variables (e.g. any(1,2,3) + any(10,20) == any(11,12,13,21,22,23))

[03:01:01.0000] <Philip`>
and any(1,2,3) < 2 is true, but all(1,2,3) < 2 is false

[03:02:00.0000] <Philip`>
and if you convert a superposition to a scalar number then it picks one eigenstate at random

[03:02:01.0000] <jgraham>
Yeah, I just looked at the docs. It doesn't seem too clever but I could be missing something

[03:03:00.0000] <Philip`>
It's actually kind of a useful feature, and not very quantumy

[03:03:01.0000] <Philip`>
I think Perl 6 has the any/all thing

[03:03:02.0000] <Philip`>
(though not the random selection)

[03:04:00.0000] <Philip`>
The Quantum::Entanglement module is much more quantumy, since it does complex probabilities and all that fun stuff

[03:04:01.0000] <jgraham>
It don't say it wasn't _useful_ just not that _clever_

[03:07:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: I wasn't disagreeing with you, just commenting that it seems to be erring on the left of the usefulness vs cleverness tradeoff scale :-)

[03:07:01.0000] <Philip`>
whereas Quantum::Entanglement is distinctly less useful

[03:12:00.0000] <gsnedders>
I think the problem here is you want code to be useful

[03:14:00.0000] <Philip`>
I don't believe I ever made such a claim

[04:10:00.0000] <rubys>
Philip`, hsivonen, YSOD fixed.  Look at last line of http://intertwingly.net/stats/internalsearches.html

[04:29:00.0000] <hsivonen>
rubys: cool

[04:41:00.0000] <hsivonen>
aargh. Mail.app ate my today's posts to the RDFa list

[04:42:00.0000] <Philip`>
rubys: It does indeed seem to be not broken :-(

[05:03:00.0000] <rubys>
Philip`: why the frown?

[05:05:00.0000] <rubys>
lol:  I see a number of other attempts.

[05:05:01.0000] <Philip`>
rubys: It's no fun when things work

[05:06:00.0000] <rubys>
Taking a string of bytes and displaying it as text is an easy problem.  The harder problem is finding all the places where this needs to be done.

[05:08:00.0000] <Philip`>
Sounds like taking a string of bytes and displaying it as text is the wrong problem to solve

[05:09:00.0000] <rubys>
In the case of a query, it is the only problem?

[05:11:00.0000] <Philip`>
I think I mean something like: If you had found the right problem to solve, then you wouldn't have to find all the places where bytes are displayed as text and fix them all individually

[05:13:00.0000] <Philip`>
(I'm not quite sure what the right problem is, but it's probably at a higher level than the individual lines of code that print text, so that it can prevent there ever being any lines of code that do it wrong)

[05:13:01.0000] <rubys>
I honestly think that all one can do is move around the problem.  As an example, Venus is based on XSLT, which you would think solves a number of well-formedness issues.  But it still gets data from outside and that data is still bytes and someplace needs to make that assessment.

[05:15:00.0000] <Philip`>
I think I tend to like the idea of simplifying error-handling by defining things to not be errors

[05:17:00.0000] <rubys>
HTML 5's serialization, for example, is a wonderful solution in that regard.  But what it means is that some times real problems show up as (at best) garbage, and (at worst) vulnerabilities.  As I don't view my weblog as mission critical and more as educational (for me!), the balance is different than one I would recommend to the developer of a typical "shopping cart" application

[05:17:01.0000] <gsnedders>
http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/2009/02/html-fives.html — I think we need one more version.

[05:25:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Download the latest copy of the spec, change all mentions of "user agent" to "top hat", add some conformance requirements to ensure interoperability with monocles, then publish it as HatML 5, and your wish will be satisfied

[05:32:00.0000] <Lachy>
http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/Timed_Divs_HTML - that document doesn't seem to define the <itext> element at all. It just uses it in examples

[05:33:00.0000] <Lachy>
I also can't figure out why they chose to prefix it with an 'i'. Other than to avoid the naming conflict with SVG, it seems like a fairly arbitrary choice

[05:34:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: to avoid conflict with svg and by analogy with iframe

[05:34:01.0000] <Lachy>
oh, so it means "inline text"?

[05:34:02.0000] <Philip`>
Doesn't seem a great analogy since you never get non-inline text

[05:35:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: no, it means text that lives in a iframe-like nested browsing context for rendering and security purposes

[05:35:01.0000] <hsivonen>
I'm not defending the name, just saying how it came about

[05:35:02.0000] <Lachy>
I like the idea of being able to style them with CSS, since that means Web Fonts could be used instead of relying on the limited choice of available system fonts

[05:35:03.0000] <Lachy>
hsivonen, ok, that makes sense

[05:36:00.0000] <Lachy>
for the category attribute, are "CC" and "SUB" the only allowed values?

[05:36:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: there's a whole bunch of those 

[05:36:02.0000] <Lachy>
are they listed anywhere?

[05:37:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: you'll find it lacks a processing model which makes the proposal hard to discuss at present

[05:37:01.0000] <Lachy>
oh, here http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/OggText#Categories_of_Text_Codecs

[06:07:00.0000] <karlcow>
gsnedders: it reminds me of RSS 3.0 http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000574

[06:08:00.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: What does?

[06:09:00.0000] <karlcow>
the versions of html 5

[06:09:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me wonders how

[06:11:00.0000] <karlcow>
RSS 3.0 came from Aaron Schwartz because of the versions which was popping up here and there around RSS and all the mess in the discussions. 

[06:12:00.0000] <karlcow>
So aaron created RSS 3.0 (text only) to make an ironic way forward. 

[06:12:01.0000] <karlcow>
I think we need more versions of html5 and specifically satiric and artistic ones to add a bit of sanity in these discussions.

[06:14:00.0000] <Philip`>
Ironic? It looks like a pretty good idea to me

[06:15:00.0000] <karlcow>
Philip`: Welcome in Duchamp's world

[06:17:00.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: Oh, don't worry. I'm working on satire for public-html.

[06:17:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me fears someone will take it as a serious suggestion and get behind it, though

[06:17:02.0000] <karlcow>
gsnedders: ;)

[06:17:03.0000] <gsnedders>
Just once this damned physics project is done. :(

[06:19:00.0000] <karlcow>
gsnedders: the physics project is about?

[06:19:01.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: Chromatic aberration

[06:21:00.0000] <karlcow>
oh cool

[06:21:01.0000] <karlcow>
/me has suddenly a big memory dive into optics in astrophysics :) 

[06:25:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hmm rss3 looks nice, but it seems none of the people listed on the page have rss3 feeds anymore

[06:26:00.0000] <karlcow>
zcorpan: poetry.

[06:27:00.0000] <zcorpan>
would be cool with a text/plain blog with an rss3 feed

[06:29:00.0000] <zcorpan>
maybe with a commenting system that involved sending email

[06:32:00.0000] <jgraham>
And admin via telnet?

[06:33:00.0000] <rubys>
s/rss3/rss5/

[06:34:00.0000] <zcorpan>
rubys: i thought rss5 wouldn't be text/plain

[06:34:01.0000] <Philip`>
I want RSS6, which will incidentally reinvent the entire paradigm of computation and provide a new syntax for XSLT that's easier to learn

[06:35:00.0000] <jgraham>
rss5 would be tag soup, but with delicious error handling :)

[06:35:01.0000] <jgraham>
/me wishes he had written "spicy croutons of..."

[06:35:02.0000] <rubys>
in rss5, descriptions would no longer be considered conformant

[06:48:00.0000] <Philip`>
Descriptions should be deduced by an auto-summarisation algorithm applied to the content of the feed by each consumer application

[07:33:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me looks at some bits of BGP and sees that it's much more of a disgusting hack than he imagined

[07:34:00.0000] <Philip`>
When a network is advertising a route to another network, it can include a 32-bit number which is conventionally interpreted as two 16-bit numbers, where the first number is effectively a namespace (corresponding to the AS number of some network)

[07:35:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Lachy: You have to smile more while dancing :)

[07:36:00.0000] <Philip`>
And then there's a giant database of routing information (150MB gzipped text) which includes 'remarks' sections saying things like 'if you send a route with community value 6730:1x130 (where x is 1, 2 or 3) then we'll add a weight of x onto your route before advertising it to France Telecom'

[07:36:01.0000] <Philip`>
(except not really as a sentence like that - there's a table with a few dozen of these values)

[07:37:00.0000] <Philip`>
I suppose it sort of works in practice, but it just really doesn't seem very nice at all

[07:37:01.0000] <Dashiva>
That sounds like most of the internet

[07:39:00.0000] <Philip`>
That feature was seemingly designed to provide distributed extensibility, but I can imagine it would be prettier if they gave you more than 16 bits to store all your data in

[07:41:00.0000] <Philip`>
Aww, how cute, there's one in this database with a little ASCII-art box around their table and a comment saying "Net at Once offer these communities to make the life of our peers and customers more joyful."

[07:41:01.0000] <Lachy>
Dashiva, did you just watch that old video of me dancing?

[07:41:02.0000] <Lachy>
or did you see some more recent photos or something?

[07:41:03.0000] <Dashiva>
Lachy: Lastweek posted it

[07:42:00.0000] <Lachy>
oh. Took him long enough to discover it.

[07:43:00.0000] <Philip`>
Maybe I didn't want to post all the photos and videos of WHATWG members all at once, and wanted to spread them over time

[07:43:01.0000] <Dashiva>
How sneaky of not you

[07:46:00.0000] <Lachy>
LOL

[07:50:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Lachy: To ask a more pressing question: Why is there a video of you dancing online?

[07:50:01.0000] <hsivonen>
my innerHTML impl still crashes. sigh

[07:53:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Pfff. Writing code that crashes. I just write code that causes the interpreter I use to crash.

[07:55:00.0000] <Lachy>
gsnedders, the video was created for a presentation I did on the video element in June 2007 at WebJam.

[07:55:01.0000] <hsivonen>
/me used a video of a groundhog eating. much less exciting

[07:55:02.0000] <Lachy>
it's interesting that Mr Last Week linked to the video in this user's account http://www.youtube.com/user/fredbezies instead of my own.

[08:05:00.0000] <zcorpan>
http://simon.html5.org/dump/clickjack.html - i guess ClearClick doesn't work here?

[08:07:00.0000] <hsivonen>
woohoo! I pass zcorpan's tests at http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/fragment/content-model-flag/

[08:10:00.0000] <Philip`>
zcorpan: I thought the idea was that ClearClick would take a screenshot of the page, in which the iframe is invisible in your example, and a screenshot of the iframe content, and compare them

[08:11:00.0000] <Philip`>
Oh, but your thing makes it not invisible, but I was only testing it in Opera where your example doesn't seem to work at all

[08:12:00.0000] <jgraham>
I think clearclick work in zcorpan's example

[08:12:01.0000] <Philip`>
Presumably ClearClick doesn't prevent you having iframes that are smaller than their content

[08:13:00.0000] <Philip`>
so it can only be comparing the pixels that are within the iframe box

[08:13:01.0000] <zcorpan>
Philip`: opera seems to have a bug where it doesn't send mousemove events properly on the demo

[08:13:02.0000] <Philip`>
Oh, but your iframe is 500x600 pixels so I guess it'll be comparing all of those pixels

[08:14:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hmm i guess i could make the iframe smaller but the scrollbars would be overlapping the content

[08:14:01.0000] <zcorpan>
is there a way to hide the scrollbars?

[08:14:02.0000] <zcorpan>
scrolling=no?

[08:17:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hmm actually i can't make the iframe smaller because then the button wouldn't be clickable

[08:18:00.0000] <zcorpan>
or is it possible to scroll the contents of an iframe? maybe there's an id="" somewhere

[08:18:01.0000] <Philip`>
Can you make the iframe suddenly pop into visibility just before it's been clicked?

[08:19:00.0000] <zcorpan>
maybe

[08:31:00.0000] <zcorpan>
#installTrigger47072 worked for vertical scrolling, maybe that's good enough and i can have a 500x1 pixels iframe following the mouse

[08:31:01.0000] <zcorpan>
oh actually

[08:32:00.0000] <zcorpan>
if i make the iframe smaller it will scroll horizontally, too

[08:32:01.0000] <zcorpan>
sweet

[08:35:00.0000] <zcorpan>
at least in opera

[08:39:00.0000] <zcorpan>
uploaded a new version where the iframe is 3x3 pixels

[08:39:01.0000] <zcorpan>
but it doesn't seem to scroll to the right place in firefox :(

[08:40:00.0000] <zcorpan>
works in opera and safari, at least

[08:40:01.0000] <gsnedders>
"the president of Rockstar North stated that the Lost and Damned would have a third of the number of missions as Grand Theft Auto IV, placing its length at approximately 10-15 hours"

[08:40:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Hmm, I completed GTA IV in around 12 hours

[08:40:03.0000] <gsnedders>
And a third of that is four hours

[08:40:04.0000] <gsnedders>
(completed insofar as the storyline)

[08:41:00.0000] <Philip`>
zcorpan: I don't think the Firefox extension installation is going to work so well in Opera

[08:42:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Philip`: obviously not, that's not the point of the demo :)

[08:45:00.0000] <Philip`>
If you don't have scripting enabled, you could still cover the screen in hundreds of tiny iframes

[08:45:01.0000] <Philip`>
and the user's bound to click on it

[08:46:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders if zcorpan has NoScript installed so he can actually test whether it's blocked by ClearClick

[08:46:01.0000] <zcorpan>
Philip`: i don't but jgraham does :)

[08:47:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hmm firefox 3 scrolls to the right place, wonder why trunk didn't when i tested

[08:50:00.0000] <zcorpan>
clearclick still picks up my clickjack attempt :(

[08:50:01.0000] <zcorpan>
/me goes to drink beer instead

[09:00:00.0000] <annevk>
wise choice

[11:32:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me is downloading The Lost and Damned

[12:49:00.0000] <weinig>
Lachy: ping

[12:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
any opera people around?

[12:52:01.0000] <Hixie>
feedback from opera on mozilla's proposed dropping of <eventsource> and replacing of that entire API with a simple new EventSource(); API (name TBD) would be useful

[13:44:00.0000] <yecril71>
Hixie!  If you want more feedback from Microsoft, 

[13:44:01.0000] <yecril71>
the first step would be to make the specification readable

[13:44:02.0000] <yecril71>
under Microsoft Internet Explorer.

[13:45:00.0000] <yecril71>
It has been raised that overlaying HTML over hardware-accelerated video need not be supported.

[13:46:00.0000] <yecril71>
But I think text captions generate the same problem.

[13:46:01.0000] <scherkus>
yecril71: where did you read that?

[13:47:00.0000] <yecril71>
About problems with support?  On WHATWG discussion group.

[13:48:00.0000] <yecril71>
It is similar how you cannot have a Swing control overlay a platform control in Java.

[13:48:01.0000] <yecril71>
(platform controls are called JWT)

[13:49:00.0000] <yecril71>
Damian Conway�s e-mail address is wrong.

[13:55:00.0000] <scherkus>
yecril71: yeah just about HTML over hw-accelerated video

[13:56:00.0000] <scherkus>
same issue with windowed vs. windowless plugins

[13:58:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, simplifying it is probably ok

[13:59:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, note that Opera is already incompatible with the current API

[13:59:01.0000] <Hixie>
k

[13:59:02.0000] <Hixie>
oh you didn't actually sync up yet? good

[14:00:00.0000] <annevk>
it didn't seem worth the effort

[14:00:01.0000] <annevk>
and I was right

[14:00:02.0000] <Hixie>
k

[14:02:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me thinks that since Canvex is already intentionally completely inaccessible to all IE users, i.e. most people on the planet, it's not really going to be much of an improvement to just add some fallback text for non-graphical browsers

[15:13:00.0000] <jwalden>
/me kicks address-based moderation again

[15:21:00.0000] <Lachy>
weinig, yo

[15:22:00.0000] <Lachy>
I read your question from last night about querySelector() without parameters

[15:23:00.0000] <Lachy>
I believe that's an issue that WebIDL needs to address

[15:26:00.0000] <Lachy>
Philip`, the idea of adding alternative content for games like canvex is really pointless, since you could never convey the interactivity and on screen action well enough dynamically. At best, you could provide a brief overview of what it is

[15:31:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, re section 1.5.4 in the spec <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Feb/0090.html>, my action item is due March 5th, so I still have a little while to work on it. I still need to finish my first response to Larry though

[15:41:00.0000] <gsnedders>
What's a decent APP client for OS X?

[15:41:01.0000] <Lachy>
what's an APP client?

[15:42:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Lachy: As in Atom Publishing Protocol

[15:44:00.0000] <karlcow>
Lachy: example http://bitworking.org/projects/apptestclient/

[15:44:01.0000] <Lachy>
I didn't even know such clients existed, so I don't know. But have you checked iusethis and macupdate?

[15:44:02.0000] <gsnedders>
/me is looking for suggestions, damnit! :P

[15:46:00.0000] <Lachy>
gsnedders, macupdate.com and iusethis.com will provide you with suggestions if you search

[15:46:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Esp. of those that can cope with XHTML content with no problem.

[15:47:00.0000] <Lachy>
I'm not even sure what Atom Publishing Protocol is. I thought Atom was only used for syndication feeds

[15:48:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Lachy: RFC5023

[15:48:01.0000] <karlcow>
gsnedders: if you intend to code one this could be useful http://developer.apple.com/webapps/articles/creatingrestfulclients.html

[15:48:02.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: A client? No. A server? Yes.

[15:49:00.0000] <gsnedders>
And I'd rather like a client to work with it :)

[15:50:00.0000] <Lachy>
gsnedders, you should switch to Windows and use a windows client since that's easier to find

[15:52:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: I presume you've managed to get cElementTree to output stuff that isn't well-formed?

[15:52:01.0000] <karlcow>
hmmm just discovered a wiki based on APP http://code.google.com/p/atomicwiki/

[15:52:02.0000] <Lachy>
weinig, if you have any more questions about selectors api, then mail public-webapps. Bed time for me.

[15:55:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: I've never cared enough to try

[15:58:00.0000] <sayrer>
what's the URL for that survey of HTML Hixie did? I can never find it

[15:59:00.0000] <annevk>
sayrer, http://code.google.com/webstats/


2009-02-21
[16:00:00.0000] <Philip`>
sayrer: http://www.google.com/search?q=google+code+stats gave me the right result after only six guesses at the search string

[16:00:01.0000] <annevk>
/me just remembers URLs

[16:00:02.0000] <sayrer>
I couldn't remember "stats"

[16:00:03.0000] <sayrer>
thanks

[16:00:04.0000] <Philip`>
(There's quite a few other places with other stats from different (and more recent) data sets)

[16:02:00.0000] <Philip`>
((and more verifiable and reproducible))

[16:05:00.0000] <weinig>
Lachy: thanks

[16:05:01.0000] <karlcow>
gsnedders: the person to ask if there is a client for APP on the mac could be ado = aadrian = kungfootv (on twitter) Ecto developer

[16:13:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: "I welcome suggestions for making them more obvious. Not sure how to do it." - text-decoration:blink ?

[16:15:00.0000] <Hixie>
for various reasons i won't go into, "obvious" is not the only constraint

[16:15:01.0000] <Hixie>
so i hope you'll understand if i ignore your suggestion

[16:15:02.0000] <Hixie>
but thanks!

[16:15:03.0000] <Philip`>
No problem

[16:31:00.0000] <annevk>
/me doesn't get the joke on intertwingly.net

[16:38:00.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: I want to go to a city and do that now :)

[16:51:00.0000] <karlcow>
:)

[17:35:00.0000] <rubys>
Philip`: you there?

[17:53:00.0000] <rubys>
anyway, if you read these logs later, it looks like Jacques Distler is taunting you: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/code/instiki/svn/revision/301

[18:54:00.0000] <jwalden>
/me kicks xhr repeatedly

[18:55:00.0000] <jwalden>
/me snickers at the distler URL

[19:15:00.0000] <jcranmer>
jwalden: your nick is too close to someone else I know...

[19:16:00.0000] <jwalden>
?

[19:16:01.0000] <jcranmer>
/me mistook jwalden for someone else at first glance

[22:14:00.0000] <jwalden>
/me wonders why the topic had to be set, after remaining constant for ages

[01:18:00.0000] <Philip`>
rubys: I wasn't here, but am now

[01:19:00.0000] <Philip`>
but you were here and now you're not

[03:34:00.0000] <annevk>
hmm, DreamHost moved my server and now all my sites are offline

[03:34:01.0000] <annevk>
wtf

[03:36:00.0000] <Philip`>
annevk: Seems like the IP changed

[03:36:01.0000] <Philip`>
which seems an unexpected thing to do to a server

[03:40:00.0000] <Philip`>
Oh wait, I'm probably misinterpreting all the numbers

[03:40:01.0000] <annevk>
no you're not

[03:40:02.0000] <annevk>
they moved my stuff to a new server

[03:41:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me never worked out how Dreamhost's naming system worked, or what servers are connected to what other servers

[03:41:01.0000] <annevk>
I said it wrong

[03:41:02.0000] <annevk>
however, that still doesn't explain why everything is gone

[03:42:00.0000] <annevk>
I e-mailed support, but given the time in the US I suppose it might take a while :/

[03:42:01.0000] <Philip`>
I can still log in to alameda.dreamhost.com and see the philip.html5.org files

[03:42:02.0000] <Philip`>
/me doesn't know how that corresponds to the web server which should be serving those files

[03:44:00.0000] <annevk>
per the e-mail we're now on hobgoblin

[03:48:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hmm, so there's copies of the files on (at least) two servers

[03:48:01.0000] <Philip`>
Seemingly distinct copies, too

[03:48:02.0000] <Philip`>
which is a bit confusing

[03:50:00.0000] <annevk>
ugh

[03:52:00.0000] <annevk>
the claim is indeed that I use 0GB of hobgoblin

[04:02:00.0000] <Philip`>
I have pretty much the same files on both - the only difference is that the httpd logs have diverged

[04:03:00.0000] <annevk>
k

[04:03:01.0000] <Philip`>
Oh, and there's no Maildir on hobgoblin

[06:53:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/status-documentation.html is sent as text/plain

[07:04:00.0000] <gsnedders>
We need Content-Type sniffing because people can't configure their servers correctly.

[07:04:01.0000] <gsnedders>
s/people/Hixie/, s/their/his/

[07:12:00.0000] <annevk>
seems sites are back up, nice

[07:17:00.0000] <annevk>
not really clear how to retract my support request

[07:17:01.0000] <annevk>
oh well

[07:17:02.0000] <annevk>
ah, it's under "contact support" rather than "support history"

[07:22:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://www.google.com/support/googleanalytics/bin/answer.py?answer=55527 - 'onClick="javascript: ..."' - it's lucky that JS supports that syntax

[07:36:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Wow. I wonder when I last used the kbd element

[07:46:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: ping

[07:48:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: http://hg.gsnedders.com/anolis/log/294

[08:17:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me tries to work out whether a program that includes some CC-by-sa music would have to be distributed as CC-by-sa itself, but it seems somewhat non-obvious whether that's the case :-(

[10:56:00.0000] <crackpod>
Hey, is someone from html5lib here?

[10:57:00.0000] <gsnedders>
crackpod: That depends on what you want to ask :)

[10:57:01.0000] <crackpod>
Well, I'm using the beautifulsoup treebuilder

[10:58:00.0000] <crackpod>
And I wondered if there was a way to use the Tag class from the BeautifulSoup module

[10:58:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Well, don't ask me then.

[10:58:02.0000] <crackpod>
:D

[10:58:03.0000] <Philip`>
/me runs away at the mention of Beautiful Soup

[10:58:04.0000] <gsnedders>
crackpod: Catch Philip`.

[10:58:05.0000] <crackpod>
/me catches Philip` 

[10:58:06.0000] <crackpod>
got'cha

[10:58:07.0000] <Philip`>
(I fixed a few bugs in it once, and that was enough :-) )

[10:58:08.0000] <crackpod>
:D

[10:58:09.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: You have more to do with it than me :P

[10:59:00.0000] <crackpod>
Actually I just wondered if I had access to BeautifulSoup.Tag when using html5lib

[10:59:01.0000] <Philip`>
((In html5lib's code that uses it, I mean))

[10:59:02.0000] <crackpod>
Since I can use the normal tree-structure I thought that was likely

[11:00:00.0000] <Philip`>
crackpod: Uh, I'm not sure what BeautifulSoup.Tag is

[11:00:01.0000] <gsnedders>
crackpod: Here's my advice: don't use BeautifulSoup.

[11:00:02.0000] <crackpod>
lol

[11:00:03.0000] <Philip`>
If it's just a class or something, you ought to be able to use it the same as in any other code that uses BS, I guess

[11:00:04.0000] <crackpod>
Oke, I think I'll just import BeautifulSoup manually then, wasn't that important anyways

[11:01:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: Everything is "just a class or something".

[11:01:01.0000] <crackpod>
gsnedders, I think BS is rather good 

[11:01:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Unless you can be a class _and_ something…

[11:01:03.0000] <gsnedders>
Hmm…

[11:01:04.0000] <crackpod>
Well good enough for a crackhead (<- I am)

[11:01:05.0000] <crackpod>
Ehrm I'm not :D

[11:02:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Lies, damned lies and statistics.

[11:02:01.0000] <crackpod>
I'm just german and trying to find the right expression for "Spinner"

[11:02:02.0000] <crackpod>
well anyways

[11:02:03.0000] <crackpod>
thanks for your help

[11:03:00.0000] <gsnedders>
HTML 5 would be so much easier to read if you did `rm source header-whatwg header-w3c; touch source header-whatwg header-w3c`

[11:03:01.0000] <crackpod>
:D

[11:03:02.0000] <gsnedders>
(And then re-gened the spec)

[11:07:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: Um, what's that huge long @title on the header of Web Socket protocol?

[12:10:00.0000] <Philip`>
Is anyone going to tell Michael Ball that <!doctype html5> triggers quirks mode in Firefox?

[12:12:00.0000] <gsnedders>
I wondered about it, but couldn't remember which browser it was, so didn't

[15:24:00.0000] <annevk>
Philip`, that doesn't really seem the right argument against his general point

[15:25:00.0000] <annevk>
Philip`, it only points out why the syntax doesn't work, not why the idea of having a  number there is wrong

[15:58:00.0000] <Lachy>
I updated the FAQ's DOCTYPE question. http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#What_will_the_DOCTYPE_be.3F

[15:59:00.0000] <Lachy>
I also added another about when using a DOCTYPE in XHTML is reasonable


2009-02-22
[16:05:00.0000] <Dashiva>
"and do to retrieve external entities"

[16:05:01.0000] <Dashiva>
That's not 100% clear to me

[16:22:00.0000] <Lachy>
Dashiva, it was supposed to say "do not". Fixed it

[19:47:00.0000] <Hixie>
woah, .htaccess <files> sections override ForceType directives in lower .htaccess files

[19:47:01.0000] <jcranmer>
interesting use of HTML: as a stand in for programming code

[19:47:02.0000] <jcranmer>
< div classajkhdhsa01f0.aesf4v>

[19:48:00.0000] <jcranmer>
</div><div classdhnds

[19:48:01.0000] <jcranmer>
? Alt ="" Height = " 190" width =" 130

[19:48:02.0000] <jcranmer>
" Bori![CDATA[fboo

[19:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok i fixed the status-documentation.html thing but boy is that confusing

[19:49:01.0000] <Hixie>
speaking of confusing

[19:49:02.0000] <Hixie>
has anyone here read the RDFa processing model implementation requirements?

[19:50:00.0000] <Hixie>
gsnedders: i use that title="" when regenning the web-socket i-d

[19:50:01.0000] <Hixie>
gsnedders: and deleting the source file wouldn't really make html5 easier to read, since it would itself get regenned from the working-copy file :-P

[00:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
hm, feedback from yahoo

[00:47:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: When you say "from yahoo", do you mean "from someone who is using the free Yahoo mail service"?

[00:58:00.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: oh, are @yahoo e-mail addresses not yahoo employees?

[00:58:01.0000] <Hixie>
oh well

[01:03:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: No, just users

[01:11:00.0000] <gavin_>
they use yahooinc.com for corporate addresses, I think

[01:24:00.0000] <jwalden>
or yahoo-inc maybe, think it's the latter but am not entirely sure

[01:55:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me ponders how to fix the <video> load() problem

[01:57:00.0000] <Hixie>
namely that <video><source src=a><source src=b></video> doesn't load src=b

[01:57:01.0000] <Hixie>
if src=a is broken

[01:57:02.0000] <Hixie>
because when b is inserted, <video> is still checking a

[01:58:00.0000] <Hixie>
maybe but i've no way of knowing that there is another <source> coming

[01:58:01.0000] <Hixie>
so i can't wait...

[01:58:02.0000] <Hixie>
and i can't just run the algorithm again when b comes along, because then a will be fetched twice

[01:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
let

[01:59:01.0000] <Hixie>
er

[01:59:02.0000] <Hixie>
i have the following events:

[01:59:03.0000] <Hixie>
video created

[01:59:04.0000] <Hixie>
video inserted

[01:59:05.0000] <Hixie>
source created

[01:59:06.0000] <Hixie>
source inserted

[01:59:07.0000] <Hixie>
src added/changed/removed

[02:06:00.0000] <Hixie>
but source could have been inserted by script before another...

[02:07:00.0000] <Hixie>
if script adds sources, we should probably wait for a load()

[02:07:01.0000] <Hixie>
but if the parser does it should probably be implied...

[02:07:02.0000] <Hixie>
hm, assymetry

[02:09:00.0000] <Philip`>
Can't you make it not start any downloads until reaching the </video>?

[02:09:01.0000] <Hixie>
there might not be on, consider <span><video><source></span>

[02:10:00.0000] <Hixie>
one

[02:10:01.0000] <Hixie>
or <video>EOF

[02:10:02.0000] <Philip`>
Oh, right

[02:10:03.0000] <Hixie>
it would be nice to have the parser just be like a script

[02:11:00.0000] <Philip`>
Can't you make it not start any downloads until the page has finished downloading and parsing and running scripts?

[02:11:01.0000] <Hixie>
parser inserts video (which might have a src), then inserts sources

[02:11:02.0000] <Hixie>
we could, but the page might never finish downloading

[02:11:03.0000] <Hixie>
consider an infinite iframe used for "comet"-like stuff which includes both <script> and <audio> elements

[02:13:00.0000] <Philip`>
Can't you make it not start any downloads until either reaching the </video> or until the page has finished downloading and parsing and running scripts, whichever comes earliest?

[02:14:00.0000] <Hixie>
we could but that's not very intuitive

[02:14:01.0000] <Hixie>
we're trying to make the platform less quirky, not more :-)

[02:14:02.0000] <Philip`>
(By "</video>" I probably mean "anything that causes the video element to be popped from the stack of open elements", if I remember the parser correctly)

[02:14:03.0000] <Hixie>
there's no real good place to hook into the parser to do that currently

[02:15:00.0000] <Hixie>
and i'd really rather not do anything in the parser

[02:15:01.0000] <Hixie>
<script> has proven that to be a nightmare

[02:15:02.0000] <Hixie>
it also gets really complicated to redefine it for xml

[02:15:03.0000] <Hixie>
and it means you can't use DOM manipulation to pretend to be a parser

[02:15:04.0000] <Hixie>
such as hsivonen's live dom viewer

[02:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
what would we want to have happen is an author inserts <video>, <source>, <source>, then moves the first source to after the second

[02:17:00.0000] <Philip`>
Fair enough

[02:19:00.0000] <Lachy>
wtf? "I develop on Win95a and 98SE [...]." -- http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6606

[02:21:00.0000] <Lachy>
A developer is the last kind of person I'd expect to be using exremely obsolete software

[02:22:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me used Windows 2000 until about 2007, but using 95 today is really going a step too far

[02:25:00.0000] <Hixie>
the difficulty is distinguishing between <video><source><source> and <video><source><!-- long delay --><souce>

[02:26:00.0000] <Lachy>
I'm still using XP, it's nearly 8 years old now too, and I expect I'll still keep it around until Microsoft drops support for it or stops releasing new IE releases for it

[02:26:01.0000] <Hixie>
i suppose we could get rid of the list of potential media resources

[02:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
and just have it so that the load() algorithm, once invoked, remembers where it was, and walks down the list of <source> elements...

[02:27:01.0000] <Hixie>
though if one is removed...

[02:27:02.0000] <Hixie>
hmm

[02:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
this may require a rewrite of how media elements load resources

[02:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
but if we keep it similar enough that shouldn't be a big deal...

[02:28:02.0000] <Hixie>
/me stops talking to himself and switches to his editor

[02:30:00.0000] <Philip`>
You have an editor?

[02:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
emacs

[02:30:02.0000] <Philip`>
I thought you were doing all the work yourself, not just proxying feedback to the real editor and stealing all the credit for his work

[02:31:00.0000] <Hixie>
if there was someone else to blame, you can bet i'd be letting them take all the blame

[02:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
src="" proves problematic even with this system

[02:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
maybe we need a new NETWORK_ state

[02:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
NETWORK_EMPTY would mean that nothing is happening yet, and NETWORK_WAITING would mean that the load algorithm is active but has no resource to load

[02:45:00.0000] <Hixie>
and NETWORK_LOADING would mean that the algorithm is actively trying to load something

[02:45:01.0000] <Hixie>
NETWORK_NONE, NETWORK_WAITING, NETWORK_LOADING, NETWORK_IDLE, NETWORK_LOADED, maybe?

[02:45:02.0000] <Hixie>
eh i'm going to bed

[02:46:00.0000] <Hixie>
nn

[04:19:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: Do you know all cases where you actually mean @title? I've got Anolis working with data-anolis-xref locally

[05:23:00.0000] <yecril71>
Lachy!  How do you run Internet Explorer on Wine?

[05:24:00.0000] <yecril71>
Wine is for third-party applications that are SDK-compliant;

[05:24:01.0000] <yecril71>
Microsoft�s applications are not SDK-compliant.

[05:25:00.0000] <yecril71>
<!DOCTYPE HTML> triggers HTML5 mode now in W3C�s validator.

[05:26:00.0000] <yecril71>
I wonder whether it is a good thing.

[05:26:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: the marked for extraction markers have a bogus month (00)

[05:28:00.0000] <yecril71>
krijnh! The log pages should be described as using ISO-8859-1.

[05:29:00.0000] <yecril71>
Internet Explorer sets the encoding to UTF-8.

[05:30:00.0000] <hsivonen>
yecril71: why? people are supposed to speak UTF-8 here

[05:32:00.0000] <yecril71>
But the logs are in ISO.

[05:33:00.0000] <yecril71>
8859-1.

[05:33:01.0000] <yecril71>
So either fix the logs or tag them.

[05:33:02.0000] <hsivonen>
‽

[05:33:03.0000] <yecril71>
The headers says Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 but it is not true.

[05:34:00.0000] <yecril71>
Your question mark caused my computer to hang for 10 s. :-)

[05:35:00.0000] <hsivonen>
yecril71: it seems my interrobang was correctly logged as UTF-8 and served without NCRs

[05:35:01.0000] <yecril71>
But look at Microsoft?s applications above.

[05:35:02.0000] <hsivonen>
yecril71: are you sure it isn't a problem at your end with your client speaking Windows-1252 instead of UTF-8?

[05:36:00.0000] <hsivonen>
krijnh: if a line doesn't decode as UTF-8, you should probably decode it as Windows-1252 for robustness. That's what irssi does.

[05:36:01.0000] <yecril71>
How do I change the output encoding?

[05:37:00.0000] <hsivonen>
yecril71: do you have irssi?

[05:38:00.0000] <yecril71>
I have mIRC 6.21

[05:38:01.0000] <hsivonen>
then I don't know

[05:38:02.0000] <Philip`>
yecril71: http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/page/Main_Page

[05:39:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: All the status markers have bogus months (they're counting from 0 instead of 1)

[05:41:00.0000] <Philip`>
(Perl's localtime function is a bit unintuitive - you have to add 1 to the month and 1900 to the year)

[05:43:00.0000] <yecril71>
ies4linux says: �Tons of e-mails losted�.

[05:44:00.0000] <yecril71>
With a reflexive hyperlink to make it better :-)

[05:44:01.0000] <yecril71>
However, Philip`, do you happen to know what the trick behind it would be?

[05:45:00.0000] <Philip`>
yecril71: I don't think there's any particular trick - it's just IE, and Wine, and everything configured and packed together so it works

[05:46:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?versionId=469 describes how to make it work in regular Wine

[05:49:00.0000] <yecril71>
Gosh, that page is unreadable.

[05:51:00.0000] <krijnh>
?

[05:52:00.0000] <krijnh>
yecril71: mIRC sucks :)

[05:52:01.0000] <Philip`>
When I last used mIRC, there were two separate options you had to enable in order to make Unicode work

[05:53:00.0000] <Philip`>
With irssi I only had to set one configuration option

[05:53:01.0000] <Philip`>
and a command-line option

[05:53:02.0000] <Philip`>
and environment variables on two computers

[05:53:03.0000] <Philip`>
and recompile irssi

[05:53:04.0000] <Philip`>
but then it worked fine

[05:54:00.0000] <yecril71>
ROTFL

[05:54:01.0000] <yecril71>
krijnh!  probably it does, and I am not surprised.

[05:57:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me was glad to see <http://browsers.evolt.org/>

[06:00:00.0000] <krijnh>
yecril71: I use mIRC as well btw ;)

[06:01:00.0000] <krijnh>
And I have no idea in what encoding the logfiles are saved

[06:04:00.0000] <yecril71>
It seems it decides on line-by-line basis between ISO-8859-1 and UTF-8.

[06:05:00.0000] <krijnh>
That's pretty weird

[06:06:00.0000] <yecril71>
Or rather CP1252 and CP65001, to be precise.

[06:07:00.0000] <krijnh>
Simple solution: all of you shouldn't use any weird characters :)

[06:08:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me loves curly quotes and non-breaking spaces

[06:12:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me supposes mIRC just stores the bytes it got from the network

[06:12:01.0000] <Philip`>
and the network probably just transmits the bytes that clients send it

[06:12:02.0000] <Philip`>
so if people use stupid clients that don't send UTF-8 then you'll end up with a mixture

[06:13:00.0000] <yecril71>
See also <http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fkrijnhoetmer.nl%2Firc-logs%2Fwhatwg%2F20090222>

[06:14:00.0000] <krijnh>
The raw log file: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/zooi/whatwg.20090222.log

[06:14:01.0000] <yecril71>
Oops, why did it show up in Notepad?

[06:15:00.0000] <yecril71>
Anyway, publishing unverified third-party content is a mortal sin :-(

[06:15:01.0000] <Philip`>
http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fkrijnhoetmer.nl%2Firc-logs%2Fwhatwg%2F20090222 doesn't complain about any characters

[06:15:02.0000] <Philip`>
(though you should use data-a and data-r :-) )

[06:16:00.0000] <yecril71>
Sorry, I am unable to validate this document because on line 217 it contained one or more bytes that I cannot interpret as utf-8

[06:17:00.0000] <Philip`>
yecril71: Publishing unverified third-party content is perfectly fine, as long as you escape '<' and don't serve it to draconian clients

[06:17:01.0000] <yecril71>
You should also make sure that the character encoding is correct.

[06:18:00.0000] <Philip`>
...and as long as you set the HTTP content type so people don't go all EBCDIC on you

[06:18:01.0000] <Philip`>
(Er, HTTP content type charset)

[06:18:02.0000] <yecril71>
Right.

[06:18:03.0000] <Philip`>
But then it's fine :-)

[06:18:04.0000] <krijnh>
Sure, I could probably utf-8 encode each line

[06:19:00.0000] <krijnh>
Add some more overhead to each request

[06:21:00.0000] <krijnh>
But I think I'll stay a mortal sinner :)

[06:22:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me suggests not worrying about it - it's exactly what browser-side error correction is for :-)

[06:23:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: You here?

[06:23:01.0000] <krijnh>
I wasn't worrying about it for 2 years now :)

[06:23:02.0000] <krijnh>
(Wow, time flies!)

[06:24:00.0000] <hsivonen>
krijnh: not including "Now: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 15:32:21 +0100 (CET)" at the bottom of old logs would help with date-based searching

[06:26:00.0000] <krijnh>
Removed

[06:26:01.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders if the joke "time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana" can be translated into any language other than English

[06:27:00.0000] <krijnh>
In Dutch it would be fruitflies

[06:27:01.0000] <krijnh>
Err

[06:27:02.0000] <krijnh>
Never mind :)

[06:27:03.0000] <hsivonen>
krijnh: thanks

[06:29:00.0000] <hsivonen>
krijnh: it's still at the top. :-) It would help to have the date of the logged day there with year, month and day as tokens that Google considers separate

[06:29:01.0000] <krijnh>
You only mentioned the bottom of the page ;]

[06:30:00.0000] <krijnh>
Removed as well

[06:30:01.0000] <krijnh>
You mean something else than 20090222?

[06:30:02.0000] <krijnh>
*other

[06:33:00.0000] <hsivonen>
krijnh: yeah, having 2009, 02 and 22 separated by something that google considers as a word separator

[06:33:01.0000] <hsivonen>
e.g. hyphen or space

[06:33:02.0000] <Philip`>
You should be able to search with inurl:20090110..20090112 etc to get date ranges

[06:34:00.0000] <Philip`>
except it makes Google accuse me of being a virus or spyware

[06:34:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: ooh. cool.

[06:34:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: accuses me, too. so not cool after all

[06:35:00.0000] <hsivonen>
today, I started to find the first IRC log mention of a firefox build with the vendor-prefixed canvas text API, but I couldn't find it

[06:38:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070802#l-107

[06:39:00.0000] <yecril71>
How should I mark up section date?

[06:39:01.0000] <Philip`>
based on grepping my offline logs

[06:39:02.0000] <yecril71>
Section is H2, should the date be inside and styled away?

[06:39:03.0000] <Philip`>
yecril71: Why do you want to mark up section date?

[06:39:04.0000] <yecril71>
Customer�s requirement.

[06:39:05.0000] <yecril71>
He used to do it with TD :-)

[06:40:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: thanks

[06:40:01.0000] <Philip`>
yecril71: Why do you want to do anything more complex than putting it in <span>?

[06:40:02.0000] <yecril71>
The natural choice would be INS � but that is invisible.

[06:40:03.0000] <yecril71>
Should the SPAN be inside the H2?

[06:41:00.0000] <Philip`>
Is the date a part of the section's heading?

[06:41:01.0000] <Philip`>
e.g. should it show up in an outline view of the document?

[06:41:02.0000] <yecril71>
I think it should.

[06:42:00.0000] <yecril71>
But then, the outline view would really be a TABLE, not a list :-(

[07:23:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: yeah

[11:44:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: I guess you still aren't there

[11:44:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me weeps at the loss of jgraham 

[12:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok

[12:52:01.0000] <Hixie>
a constant that means that nothing is happening but that changing the .src will be ignored and <source> might be looked at...

[12:58:00.0000] <Hixie>
NETWORK_NO_SOURCE.

[13:14:00.0000] <erlehmann>
can someone point me to the rationale that <ins> should not cross paragraph boundaries?

[14:25:00.0000] <jwalden>
/me wonders if any work has been done at getting CSS support for sectioning content and heading levels

[14:35:00.0000] <Hixie>
jwalden: no need for css support, it can be described in css thus: http://damowmow.com/temp/sectioning.css

[14:35:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me ducks

[14:36:00.0000] <jwalden>
sectioning content elements are arbitrarily nestable, tho, but sure, if you can constrain content then it's true

[14:36:01.0000] <Hixie>
that css file handles the arbitrary nesting

[14:36:02.0000] <jwalden>
/me is actually doing that on his own site, but not to nearly that depth

[14:36:03.0000] <Hixie>
i'm not really suggesting browsers do this

[14:36:04.0000] <jwalden>
and not generically, either

[14:36:05.0000] <jwalden>
I know

[14:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
but theoretically, it means the css specs themselves don't need to change, and the browsers can implement performance hacks like :-moz-any-link

[14:41:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me sees that http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=79655 cites Web Apps 1.0, but claims the author is a person named "W. H. A. T. W. Group"

[14:41:01.0000] <Philip`>
Silly LaTeX trying to initialise people's names :-(

[14:46:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me tries to work out what the paper is actually about

[15:02:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hmm, seems like the idea is to design a browser that separates each origin into its own process, with security enforced by a kernel process, only allowing cross-origin access to scripts and stylesheets (based on Content-Type)

[15:02:01.0000] <Philip`>
and cross-origin frames/images/plugins are handled by delegating a rectangle of the screen to another process

[15:04:00.0000] <Philip`>
with the idea being that same-origin-policy enforcement in current browsers is spread throughout the code and thus vulnerable to bugs, so it's more secure to have it enforced by a relatively simple kernel process instead

[15:06:00.0000] <Philip`>
and plugins are isolated into separate processes per origin too, and can only access resources through the kernel

[15:07:00.0000] <Dashiva>
So you need separate plugin instances for each origin?

[15:09:00.0000] <Philip`>
Yes, I think

[15:09:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: Oh dear lord that CSS is horrible…

[15:09:02.0000] <Philip`>
(Also you need to modify the plugins so they communicate through the browser kernel)

[15:10:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: Do we not really for sane authors need CSS support? :P

[15:10:01.0000] <gsnedders>
(I'm of course not implying you aren't sane…)

[15:12:00.0000] <Philip`>
(Strict compatibility is not a requirement - the idea is to sacrifice some compatibility for security)

[15:18:00.0000] <jwalden>
gsnedders: and x6 for h2-h6!  :-D

[15:19:00.0000] <jwalden>
not to mention that h1 is really hx for the lowest x in a sectioning content element

[15:19:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me does know this

[15:19:02.0000] <gsnedders>
/me has implemented the creating an outline algorithm

[15:19:03.0000] <jwalden>
at least it compresses well!

[15:20:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Probably the only implementation of the creating an outline algorithm that is actually used :)

[15:21:00.0000] <jwalden>
would be cool if html5.validator.nu had that implemented, for parity with the w3 headline generator for html4/xhtml1

[15:34:00.0000] <gsnedders>
(The TOC in the spec itself is made via the outline algorithm)


2009-02-23
[16:32:00.0000] <Hixie>
jwalden: per spec h2-h6 don't actually do the magic sizing, only h1 does

[16:38:00.0000] <jwalden>
huh

[16:38:01.0000] <jwalden>
haven't seen that change

[16:38:02.0000] <jwalden>
in the spec

[16:38:03.0000] <jwalden>
maybe it's part of the rendering section

[16:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
change?

[16:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
h2-h6 have never done magic sizing, it's always only been <h1>

[16:41:01.0000] <jwalden>
bad assumptions on my part, I guess

[16:41:02.0000] <Hixie>
requiring h2-h6 to do magic sizing would be orders of magnitude more complexity, since then we'd have to do the entire outline algorithm each time

[16:46:00.0000] <jwalden>
hm, my mis-memory

[22:28:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: "not appliciable" in the status boxes probably shouldn't use the same icons as "excellent support"

[22:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
fixed

[22:29:01.0000] <Hixie>
now it's the same as none

[22:32:00.0000] <zcorpan>
anyone aware of bugs in browsers with <param>?

[22:34:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hmm what's the impl status of "Offsets into the media resource" (i.e. .duration, .currentTime, .loop)?

[22:35:00.0000] <zcorpan>
"incomplete" in firefox and safari?

[22:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
haven't tested either recently

[22:37:00.0000] <zcorpan>
what about canvas transformations?

[22:37:01.0000] <zcorpan>
Philip`?

[22:38:00.0000] <zcorpan>
/me skips the canvas-related sections

[23:12:00.0000] <jwalden>
currentTime works in Gecko, modulo bugs of course

[23:12:01.0000] <jwalden>
duration also seems to work

[23:16:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: "The rendering section will define this in more detail." says the spec about size=""

[23:26:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jwalden: the outline algorithm is a known feature request for v.nu

[23:27:00.0000] <jwalden>
so I figured :-)

[23:27:01.0000] <hsivonen>
jwalden: right now I'm focusing on the Gecko side of things, tyranny of email permitting

[23:28:00.0000] <jwalden>
all good, not like I had a meaningful reason to need it :-)

[23:31:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: i'll clean that up at some point

[23:54:00.0000] <zcorpan>
uh... why is there an annotation box at 5.9.4 The Location interface that seems to annotate something about <video>?

[00:00:00.0000] <Hixie>
probably the IDs changed

[00:01:00.0000] <Hixie>
it happens occasionally

[00:06:00.0000] <zcorpan>
is it fixable?

[00:06:01.0000] <Hixie>
only by making IDs never get reused

[00:11:00.0000] <zcorpan>
which browsers support rel=prefetch?

[00:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
firefox is the only one i know of

[00:14:00.0000] <Philip`>
zcorpan: What about canvas transformations?

[00:14:01.0000] <zcorpan>
Philip`: which browsers support them (for the purpose of spec status annotation)?

[00:15:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Philip`: maybe you could go through the canvas section and annotate appropriately? :)

[00:17:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/results.html#2d.transformation.transform.identity says all supported transform, and all except WebKit supported setTransform

[00:17:01.0000] <Philip`>
Hmm, it's possible but I don't think I really care enough to do that :-p

[00:22:00.0000] <hsivonen>
ooh. YouTube automatic caption translation is impressive

[00:23:00.0000] <hsivonen>
nessy: what capture software do you use to generate the green circles indicating clicks?

[00:37:00.0000] <hsivonen>
aargh. I already have a validator bug related to xmlns:foo

[00:41:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me gestures angrily in the general direction of Namespaces

[00:43:00.0000] <Philip`>
If you would just stop writing bugs, it wouldn't be a problem at all

[00:45:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: the first "ABC Company" example should be marked as "bad"

[01:05:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: k, thx

[01:08:00.0000] <zcorpan>
are webkit's and firefox's impl of canvas text "incomplete" or "complete but buggy"?

[01:11:00.0000] <zcorpan>
ok i'm done annotating now. they were rough guesses but it's better than nothing, i hope

[01:11:01.0000] <hsivonen>
argh. the isindex bug persists

[01:11:02.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, one issue Ruby raised a few times was making <meta charset> conforming in XHTML if it matched the charset of the document

[01:12:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: I categorize that under violations of the DOM Consistency principle being bad

[01:15:00.0000] <Lachy>
we could allow <meta charset> in XHTML if it was set to either UTF-8, UTF-16, UTF-16LE or UTF-16BE; or if it matched the encoding specified by the XML declaration or higher level protocol, like the HTTP content-type header

[01:16:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me presumes it also falls under the Metadata That Looks Like It'll Do Something But Actually It'll Be Totally Ignored Thus Wasting Authors' Time principle (like @profile)

[01:16:01.0000] <annevk>
@profile is different

[01:16:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: indeed. Which is why what Lachy says would only work for authors who validate often but would cause trouble for everyone else

[01:17:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: It would also work for authors who don't validate at all but send everything as UTF-8 all the time and use <meta charset="utf-8"/>

[01:17:01.0000] <Philip`>
which is probably quite a high proportion of the people who serve XHTML

[01:17:02.0000] <hsivonen>
@profile is an epic waste of time no matter what. However, if the WG doesn't spent its time on it, the aggregate waste over time will be much larger.

[01:18:00.0000] <Lachy>
at least allowing <meta charset> in XHTML would actually be addressing a real use case

[01:18:01.0000] <Lachy>
unlike @profile

[01:19:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me forgets the usecase

[01:19:01.0000] <Lachy>
jgraham, allowing polyglot documents to be served as either HTML or XHTML without modification and without relying on HTTP content type headers

[01:19:02.0000] <jgraham>
Yes

[01:20:00.0000] <Lachy>
rubys said that's what Venus does

[01:20:01.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Software that produces bytes that someone else (who doesn't want to do any fancy reserialiation) might serve as HTML or XHTML, that will retain the correct charset even when it's e.g. saved to disk and separated from its HTTP charset

[01:21:00.0000] <jgraham>
I suppose polyglot documents are a valid usecase

[01:22:00.0000] <Philip`>
They're a use case which HTML5 already goes to some lengths to support, so it'd be inconsistent to not continue supporting them

[01:22:01.0000] <Lachy>
hmm, in that case, maybe we would only need to allow it to be specified as UTF-8/UTF-16*, because if you're specifying the charset with the xml decl. then you're not making a polyglot document

[01:23:00.0000] <Lachy>
... and doing anything else doesn't work too well when separated from the HTTP content-type headers

[01:23:01.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: Can't Content-Type still set the charset to anything (not just UTF), if there's no XML declaration?

[01:23:02.0000] <Lachy>
Philip`, yeah, but see what I just wrote

[01:23:03.0000] <zcorpan>
Philip`: if you can set content-type you don't need <meta charset>

[01:24:00.0000] <Philip`>
I suppose that makes sense

[01:24:01.0000] <Lachy>
we may not even need to allow UTF-16, since that has the BOM anyway

[01:25:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: though being able to vary the content-type without being able to also set charset is a very fringe case

[01:26:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: Not really - just upload an .html vs .xhtml file, and that'll change the content-type

[01:26:01.0000] <Philip`>
(or have an .html and .xhtml file on your local disk)

[01:27:00.0000] <hsivonen>
ok

[01:27:01.0000] <hsivonen>
/me notes that this is can already be done by using the UTF-8 BOM

[01:28:00.0000] <Lachy>
hsivonen, sometimes, including the UTF-8 BOM isn't always easy and can create problems with server side tools

[01:28:01.0000] <Philip`>
/me would never trust a text editor to not silently strip the BOM

[01:29:00.0000] <Lachy>
e.g. if you begin a PHP file with the UTF-8 BOM, then it sends it out and prevents you from calling header() to set any other headers.

[01:29:01.0000] <hsivonen>
/me would trust TextWrangler

[01:29:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: so you'd need to produce the BOM by other means than literal inclusion in PHP

[01:30:00.0000] <Lachy>
the only safe way to get a BOM output from such a system is to do: echo "\EF\BB\BF"

[01:30:01.0000] <hsivonen>
right

[01:30:02.0000] <Lachy>
(if I got that syntax right)

[01:30:03.0000] <Philip`>
I guess any server-side templating system which reads a template, parses it as XML, does some substitutions, then prints it out again, would be hard to make output a BOM if you're the person who's just editing the templates

[01:31:00.0000] <zcorpan>
<meta charset="utf-8"/> is easier to work with than a bom

[01:31:01.0000] <Lachy>
but that requires authors to have to look up the byte sequence for the UTF-8 BOM, which is harder than just typing <meta charset="UTF-8"/>

[01:31:02.0000] <hsivonen>
true. I just observed that there is an unobvious and brittle way to address the case already.

[01:33:00.0000] <Philip`>
The use case could also be addressed by outputting ASCII and using &#nnn;

[01:34:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Philip`: that might be safer to do anyway

[01:35:00.0000] <zcorpan>
since for rubys' purpose the content might well end up being mislabeled anyway

[01:35:01.0000] <Philip`>
Inefficient for non-English-speakers, though

[01:35:02.0000] <zcorpan>
efficient enough for swedish, but yeah

[01:36:00.0000] <annevk>
PHP doesn't do BOM

[01:36:01.0000] <annevk>
it chokes on it (at least for version 4 it did, maybe it's fixed now)

[01:36:02.0000] <hsivonen>
with PHP, you are in control of headers, on the other hand

[01:37:00.0000] <annevk>
if you know how that works

[01:37:01.0000] <Philip`>
zcorpan: Still probably three times worse than UTF-8 for any funny Swedish characters, though

[01:37:02.0000] <hsivonen>
well, yeah, pretty much everything depends on knowing what to do

[01:37:03.0000] <annevk>
I expect that most people that work with PHP have limited knowledge of headers

[01:38:00.0000] <annevk>
s/headers/HTTP/

[01:38:01.0000] <Philip`>
Headers are things like <META>, aren't they?

[01:39:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Philip`: yes but for a normal document that's still not so much

[01:39:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Swedish characters are two bytes in UTF-8 and 5 bytes as NCRs in the best case

[01:41:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me can imagine implementations in which it's a pain to convert UTF-8 to NCRs, e.g. if all your strings are UTF-8 encoded in a database and you just get bytes back and print them straight out, and don't have an easy way to do substitutions on characters instead of bytes

[01:42:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Philip`: store it as NCRs in the database ;)

[01:44:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: fwiw, I just noticed that the tree builder stack already has mutable data on it beyond the element nodes

[01:44:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: table elements have a taint bit

[01:44:02.0000] <hsivonen>
for dealing with foster parenting spaces and other text

[01:44:03.0000] <Philip`>
/me is thinking of e.g. http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/code/instiki/svn/annotate/head%3A/lib/stringsupport.rb where is_utf8? indicates that all the string-processing is done on bytes

[01:46:00.0000] <Philip`>
(Hmm, that code is going to think &#x26;#65536; is invalid utf8?)

[01:46:01.0000] <Philip`>
s/65536/65535/

[01:46:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: was your foster parenting change editorial?

[01:48:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: I'm trying to work out if there was any change other than addressing the case where a script has moved the table into a DocumentFragment

[01:57:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: did you have a good way of foster parenting text that doesn't cause single-char text nodes and that doesn't keep reallocating the buffer of a pre-existing text node?

[01:58:00.0000] <hsivonen>
in general, I don't want to fetch an existing text node back from the DOM and append to it

[01:58:01.0000] <hsivonen>
seems like asking for trouble in crazy script scenarios

[02:01:00.0000] <hsivonen>
should I try to buffer a run of foster-parented text but not coalesce it with pre-existing non-foster-parented text?

[02:02:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: I think the idea was that you would only have to extend a text node if it was the last node you inserted into the document, which (hopefully) means you can delay inserting it into the document and just build up the string in memory, and then when you next insert a non-text node you go back and insert that combined text node first

[02:03:00.0000] <hsivonen>
OK. so I need to be able to foster-parent upon flushing :-(

[02:03:01.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: "... if that node has a child immediately before where the character is to be inserted, and that child is a Text node, and that Text node was the last node that the parser inserted into the document, then the character must be appended to that Text node" - the "last node" bit is relevant

[02:03:02.0000] <hsivonen>
ok

[02:03:03.0000] <hsivonen>
I guess now is as good time as any to finally fix this

[02:03:04.0000] <Philip`>
I've never actually tried implementing that, so I don't know if it's feasible in practice

[02:04:00.0000] <Philip`>
but at some point in the past it seemed to me like it'd possibly work okay (and it would avoid the quadratic performance issues)

[02:04:01.0000] <hsivonen>
I don't like the idea of making flush check a flag, but I guess it's peanuts in the grand scheme of things

[02:05:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me feels good about writing code instead of email ratholing today

[02:05:01.0000] <Philip`>
You mean the flag can trigger anaphylaxis?

[02:06:00.0000] <nessy>
hsivonen:  I work on the mac an my capture software is iShowU

[02:06:01.0000] <nessy>
it lets you set up circles like that

[02:06:02.0000] <hsivonen>
nessy: thanks. (I use Snapz Pro X)

[02:07:00.0000] <nessy>
but I would prefer if it didn't use circles on everything, e.g. click on scrollbar

[02:07:01.0000] <Philip`>
(I guess your Java implementation has the same problem that Python/JS/etc ones would, with <table>aaaaaaaaaa having O(n^2) performance if it was appending each character to the text node's immutable string?)

[02:07:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: right

[02:08:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: Gecko's strings are mutable, but IIRC, the DOM tries to not have dead weight buffers

[02:09:00.0000] <Philip`>
(Non-linear performance is pretty annoying, e.g. when someone accidentally hit an exponential case in a regexp in the html5lib sanitiser)

[02:10:00.0000] <Philip`>
(so I suppose html5lib should be careful to avoid these quadratic things too, because people rely on the library and don't want it to suffer from DOS attacks)

[02:10:01.0000] <hsivonen>
which reminds me that all my growing buffers don't have upper limits against malicious content

[02:10:02.0000] <hsivonen>
like <aaaaaaa... with a script serving an unbounded number of 'a's

[02:12:00.0000] <Philip`>
The longest tag name I see is 594 characters

[02:13:00.0000] <Philip`>
<metaname"keywords"content="agorà,provincie,regioni,comuni,istituzioni,italia,commercio,sport,dante,libertà,liberale,liberalismo,liberismo,parlamento,camera,senato,capitalismo,free,informazioni,editoria,associazioni,formazione,forum,sicurezza,cultura,europa,comunicazione,comuni,circuito,stampa,manifestazioni,iscrizioni,rete,società,pli,elezioni,partiti,politica,politiche,politici,croce,einaudi,marx,berlusconi,d'alema,rutelli,ulivo,polo,laici,occupaz

[02:13:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Validator.nu protects itself by limiting the length of the network stream, but I need something else for Gecko

[02:13:02.0000] <Philip`>
(I guess you don't want to fatally abort when pages do silly things like that, but I'm not sure that anyone would object to truncation)

[02:14:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: Isn't Gecko equally vulnerable to malicious content like <script>a='a';while(1)a+=a</script> ?

[02:15:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: I haven't tried

[02:15:01.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: i'm sure i've acknowledged that one many times

[02:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: and the taint bit proved to be a huge pain in the ass :-)

[02:18:01.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: which revision?

[02:18:02.0000] <Hixie>
re <meta charset>, lachy raises an interesting point

[02:19:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: the one that changed the paragraph starting with "The foster parent element is"

[02:19:01.0000] <hsivonen>
/me tries to look up the rev

[02:19:02.0000] <Hixie>
since there can't be an xml decl, and since we're assuming the site can't set the http headers to give the encoding (otherwise we wouldn't need the meta charset), we have to assume that the document is either utf-8 or utf-16.

[02:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
in which case, the meta charset isn't needed since you can just use a bom

[02:20:01.0000] <Hixie>
which is already allowed

[02:20:02.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: bom vs <meta> was also discussed

[02:21:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: r2732

[02:21:01.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, after having thought about it more, I would allow only <meta charset="UTF-8"/> in XHTML. Anything else should be an error

[02:22:00.0000] <Philip`>
BOMs are invisible metadata

[02:22:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Even after a second look, I can't figure out the non-editorial aspect of r2732 if there is one

[02:23:00.0000] <Hixie>
i guess i could be convinced that we could allow it for utf-8 only, since in that case it doesn't do anything in xml anyway and all it does in text/html is make the default match xml

[02:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: looking

[02:25:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me thinks that anything that relys on BOMs is bad

[02:26:00.0000] <virtuelv>
oh, BOMs, those things you can never rely on tools outputting

[02:26:01.0000] <hsivonen>
/me thinks that UTF-16 *without* a BOM is bad

[02:27:00.0000] <Lachy>
relying on a UTF-8 BOM is bad. Relying on UTF-16 BOM is good.

[02:27:01.0000] <Hixie>
UTF-16 is general is bad...

[02:27:02.0000] <Hixie>
:-)

[02:27:03.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: It may be bad to output it without a BOM but since people generally can't see the BOM, it is hard for them to tell if they got it right

[02:27:04.0000] <Philip`>
Watch out for unexploded BOMs

[02:28:00.0000] <jgraham>
So BOMs rely on a "tools will save us" kind of argument

[02:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: it's not an editorial change.

[02:28:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: so what's the change?

[02:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: the foster parent element is no longer defined in terms of its parent, only in terms of the stack.

[02:29:01.0000] <Lachy>
jgraham, I'm not aware of any UTF-16 capable editor that doesn't always output the BOM

[02:29:02.0000] <Lachy>
and it's non-trivial to strip it

[02:29:03.0000] <Lachy>
but that does make UTF-16 bad for use in server side includes

[02:30:00.0000] <jgraham>
I would be more convinced by a survey of billions of web pages showing that all UTF-16 ones always have BOMs :)

[02:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: the non-fragment case was changed from having two conditions -- if parent, if no parent -- to always doing what the original "no parent" case did

[02:30:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: the definition still first uses the parent of the table if there is one

[02:30:03.0000] <Hixie>
it does?

[02:31:00.0000] <Hixie>
how so?

[02:31:01.0000] <Hixie>
is there some other text somewhere that i missed?

[02:31:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: or then "the parent of foo in the stack of open element" is a really unobvious way of saying you don't actually care about the actual parent

[02:32:00.0000] <Hixie>
but the spec doesn't say that unless i'm misreading it

[02:32:01.0000] <Hixie>
the definition of "foster parent element" only uses the term "parent" in the term "foster parent element" itself

[02:32:02.0000] <hsivonen>
now this is embarassing. I'm reading my diff window the wrong way round

[02:32:03.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[02:33:00.0000] <Hixie>
it happens :-)

[02:34:00.0000] <hsivonen>
The simplification doesn't really simplify things much though, since you still need to check if the foster parent is the actual parent to decide if you insertBefore or appendChild

[02:34:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah but you don't have to do that in the parser thread

[02:34:02.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: your diff view should probably have fancy colors to avoid that mistake :)

[02:34:03.0000] <virtuelv>
/me wonders just how many UTF-16 documents there actually are

[02:34:04.0000] <Hixie>
you can do that off on the main thread

[02:34:05.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, would you like the meta charset discussion summarised into an email so you don't forget about it?

[02:34:06.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: or a bug, yeah.

[02:34:07.0000] <Lachy>
ok, I'll bug it

[02:34:08.0000] <Hixie>
thanks

[02:35:00.0000] <Hixie>
i hope it's what sam meant

[02:35:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: thanks

[02:35:02.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: does that resolve that issue to your satisfaction?

[02:35:03.0000] <Hixie>
if it is what sam meant, i'm still surprised that i've never actually replied to that issue

[02:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'm sure he's raised it on the whatwg before

[02:36:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: either way works. the old way just would have required passing one extra pointer to the main thread

[02:36:02.0000] <Philip`>
Out of the five UTF-16 pages in my collection, all have a DOM

[02:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
the last few times he's mentioned it has always been on the public-html list in passing as something where he didn't get his way, i just assumed that meant that the issue had been resolved

[02:37:01.0000] <Hixie>
oh well

[02:37:02.0000] <Philip`>
(5 out of 130K)

[02:37:03.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: k

[02:37:04.0000] <Philip`>
Uh

[02:37:05.0000] <Philip`>
s/DOM/BOM/

[02:37:06.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: s/painter/pointer/ (in the load algoritm)

[02:37:07.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: any of them have internal declarations claiming to be UTF-8? :-)

[02:37:08.0000] <Philip`>
/me assumed Sam was referring to his namespaces-in-HTML proposal

[02:38:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: actually, they both require the same number of pointers to be passed

[02:38:01.0000] <jgraham>
/me thinks that 5 might be in the realm of samll number statistics :)

[02:38:02.0000] <Philip`>
One says charset="unicode"

[02:38:03.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: i've _definitely_ sent replies back on _that_ subject

[02:38:04.0000] <ap>
Lachy: did I read it correctly that no one is proposing to honor <meta charset> in XHTML?

[02:38:05.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: thanks

[02:38:06.0000] <Philip`>
http://www.hotellikarhu.com/ says utf-8

[02:38:07.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: so I'm OK with either, but if you'd prefer reverting to the old way, I'd prefer knowing now

[02:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: i'm fine with the text now. it's simpler.

[02:39:01.0000] <annevk2>
ap, yes

[02:39:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: ok. thanks

[02:39:03.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: and still doesn't throw content away.

[02:39:04.0000] <ap>
annevk2: good, thx

[02:39:05.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: (which your original proposal would have)

[02:39:06.0000] <Hixie>
ap: don't worry, that would be a layer violation, and we won't do that

[02:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
we only violate layers when legacy content forces us to

[02:40:01.0000] <Philip`>
Hmm, one of the five isn't utf-16, so I've got no idea why my grep thought it was

[02:40:02.0000] <Philip`>
http://www.prhoffman.com/site-map.htm says no charset at all

[02:41:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: validating Lachy's proposed change would violate layers, though, but the violation in the infrastructure is already needed for URL validation

[02:41:01.0000] <Philip`>
http://www.archimage.net/silvia2.html asserts via HTTP that it's iso-8859-1

[02:41:02.0000] <Philip`>
and via <meta> claims it's charset=unicode

[02:42:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://www.rimetea-torocko.com/ claims it's charset=iso-8859-1

[02:43:00.0000] <Philip`>
Oops, it's more than five, some just scrolled off my screen

[02:43:01.0000] <Lachy>
hsivonen, how would it violate the layers? All you would need to check is that it's "UTF-8" (case insensitive) and that the document's encoding is UTF-8 too.

[02:44:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: in proper layering, the application layer doesn't know the encoding of the XML document

[02:44:01.0000] <Lachy>
ok

[02:44:02.0000] <Philip`>
http://www.oregongolf.com/ - aha, there's one without a BOM

[02:45:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://www.southern-jet.com/ claims to be iso-8859-1

[02:48:00.0000] <Philip`>
Oh, so it's actually 30 pages that look like UTF-16

[02:48:01.0000] <Philip`>
which is a bit more than 5

[02:48:02.0000] <jgraham>
And at least one has no BOM

[02:49:00.0000] <jgraham>
Which is like 3 +/- a lot %

[02:50:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me attempts to upload the list, before realising he's connected to the wrong Dreamhost server and so the files he uploads aren't actually accessible from the web

[02:52:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://philip.html5.org/data/pages-that-look-like-utf16.txt - that's better

[02:52:01.0000] <Philip`>
If anyone wants to bother looking through all those pages and working out which ones have BOMs, feel free :-)

[02:52:02.0000] <Philip`>
but at least there's definitely one without

[02:52:03.0000] <Philip`>
(These are the pages matching (?i)\x00[a-z]\x00[a-z]\x00, minus .jpg and .JPG and .doc and .wma files)

[03:06:00.0000] <zcorpan>
this seems useful http://blog.nihilogic.dk/2009/02/html5-canvas-cheat-sheet.html

[03:11:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok, dealt with all the video feedback

[03:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
(other than caption stuff)

[03:13:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: thanks :)

[03:13:01.0000] <zcorpan>
looks good on first read

[03:15:00.0000] <Lachy>
it's interesting that the table on this page uses summary="" itself, but it contains information that would have been useful to me if I didn't have to look at the source to see it. http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/summary.html

[03:17:00.0000] <jgraham>
That use of summary doesn't comply with WCAG2 AIUI

[03:18:00.0000] <zcorpan>
seems like that should be before or after the table labelled as "Conclusion:"

[03:18:01.0000] <jgraham>
Although I don't really understand WCAG2

[03:19:00.0000] <jgraham>
(specifically it doens't use the summary as indicated in http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H73.html but I don't know if that is just supposed to be a suggestion or what)

[03:19:01.0000] <zcorpan>
jgraham: that's non-normative :)

[03:20:00.0000] <jgraham>
zcorpan: Does WCAG have any normative conditions?

[03:20:01.0000] <Hixie>
well in a shocking turn of events, i've actually run out of urgent feedback that isn't blocked on other stuff

[03:20:02.0000] <jgraham>
In any case violating non-normative suggestions about how to best use the attribute in an article designed to show that the attribute is used correctly is... interesting

[03:21:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, take a holiday for a few weeks and relax :-)

[03:21:01.0000] <zcorpan>
jgraham: yes, http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/#content-structure-separation-programmatic is normative

[03:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
i was thinking that i could do the editorial stuff sam was saying i should do

[03:22:01.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, bug 6613 isn't blocked by anything

[03:22:02.0000] <Hixie>
i haven't looked at the bugs

[03:22:03.0000] <Hixie>
are any of them urgent?

[03:22:04.0000] <Lachy>
I don't know. That's the one I just filed.

[03:24:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: my issues! address my issues first!

[03:24:01.0000] <zcorpan>
:)

[03:24:02.0000] <Hixie>
if you have any that affect implementations, let me know

[03:24:03.0000] <Hixie>
if they're bugs, mark them P1 or critical (or both)

[03:27:00.0000] <zcorpan>
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6336 seems fixed in the spec already

[03:27:01.0000] <Hixie>
cool

[03:31:00.0000] <zcorpan>
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6438 and http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6462 and http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6494 would probably make pf people happy

[03:32:00.0000] <hsivonen>
In my opinion, it doesn't make sense to stir things around bug 6494 before the group speccing ATAG decides what they want authoring tools to do

[03:33:00.0000] <zcorpan>
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6353 seems fixed now

[03:34:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: 6494 doesn't suggest any normative changes but i guess it might stir things anyway

[03:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
i guess we do want to disallow cyclic references in headers="", huh

[03:36:01.0000] <Hixie>
even though it doesn't cause any harm algorithm-wise

[03:36:02.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: you ok with checking for this and flagging it?

[03:38:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: yeah, eventually, but it'll probably wait on other higher-priority stuff

[03:38:01.0000] <Hixie>
k

[03:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
holy crap, a CFL light just blew on me

[03:45:00.0000] <Hixie>
i've only had it two years!

[03:45:01.0000] <Hixie>
what kind of crap is this!

[03:45:02.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: time for a new blog post?

[03:45:03.0000] <Hixie>
hah

[03:46:00.0000] <Hixie>
i don't care as much about CFL lights as about my LED bike lights :-)

[03:46:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: I just witnessed one go bad in under a month

[03:47:00.0000] <Hixie>
under a month! it was probably still under warranty!

[03:47:01.0000] <Lachy>
presumably you can only claim warranty if you kept the receipt. But who keeps those for everything?

[03:48:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I might complain if I have another reason to visit the seller premises in the near future

[03:48:01.0000] <zcorpan>
Lachy: i do for things i might find broken and want to return

[03:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: you really think i shouldn't do 6494 yet?

[03:49:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: yes

[03:50:00.0000] <Hixie>
did steve just point-blank admit to trolling on public-html

[03:50:01.0000] <Hixie>
or am i seeing things

[03:50:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: I think we should wait for concrete ATAG 2.0 draft text and then make machine-checkable conformance broad enough to make conforming all outputs of ATAG 2.0-recommended authoring tool behavior

[03:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
you had me at "yes"

[03:52:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: either he is being sarcastic or he is admitting trolling

[03:58:00.0000] <zcorpan>
or he implied "... according to WCAG 2 techniques with which i disagree"

[03:58:01.0000] <zcorpan>
assuming we're talking about the same thing here :)

[03:59:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: wouldn't that be trolling?

[03:59:01.0000] <Lachy>
zcorpan, I think the trolling was where he said "I used the summary in this way on prupose, because i figured that people would look at it and comment on its incorrect use."

[04:00:00.0000] <hsivonen>
so who *does* agree with the WCAG advice here?

[04:01:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: I'll try to make SAX Tree and XOM tree builders not suck perf-wise when there's a lot of stuff to foster parent

[04:01:01.0000] <hsivonen>
we'll see if I break something...

[04:01:02.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: uh yeah i guess it would

[04:02:00.0000] <Lachy>
considering the actual conformance criteria in WCAG2 are so vague and incomprehensible without reading the Understanding and Techniques documents, choosing to ignore the advisory techniques you disagree with seems to leaves them open to a lot of interpretation

[04:02:01.0000] <Lachy>
s/seems to leaves/leaves/

[04:03:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: yeah, I think that's a pretty significant flaw. particularly in a document that clearly has been written as basis for litigation

[04:03:01.0000] <Lachy>
"There may also be cases where it may be a judgment call about what information should appear in text and what would need to be directly associated, and it may be most appropriate to duplicate some information (for instance, in an HTML table, providing the summary both in the paragraph before the table and in the summary attribute of the table itself). However, wherever possible it is necessary for the information to be programmatically determined rath

[04:03:02.0000] <Lachy>
er than providing a text description before encountering the table."

[04:03:03.0000] <Lachy>
-- http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/content-structure-separation-programmatic.html

[04:04:00.0000] <Lachy>
So WCAG2 recommends dupicating information just to achieve programmatic association?!

[04:04:01.0000] <hsivonen>
I love the use of "wherever possible" in the light of comments on the use of "when possible" in HTML Design Principles

[04:04:02.0000] <Lachy>
LOL

[04:05:00.0000] <Lachy>
well, this is an informative document. WCAG 1 had "when possible" in normative criteria

[04:06:00.0000] <zcorpan>
/me doesn't think it makes sense to have normative criteria for "guidelines" in the first place

[04:07:00.0000] <zcorpan>
or the title should have been WCAR

[04:08:00.0000] <hsivonen>
it seems to me WCAG family of documents wants to have its cake and eat it too when it comes to normativity

[04:09:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hmm autobuffer="" seems nice, i had only thought about using heuristics

[04:10:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders if http://www.whatwg.org/issues/top has turned out to be of significant value or not

[04:10:01.0000] <Hixie>
not enough people voted on issues for it to be valuable

[04:10:02.0000] <hsivonen>
/me wonders if it's bad for SAX Tree to have a tree node per character for foster-parented text

[04:11:00.0000] <zcorpan>
/me wonders what a tree node is

[04:11:01.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders what a character is

[04:11:02.0000] <hsivonen>
if I fix the O(n^2) search behavior

[04:11:03.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: UTF-16 code unit

[04:12:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: a node is an object with 7 pointers and two ints

[04:13:00.0000] <Philip`>
(<table>aaaaaa is presumably easier to handle than <table>aaa</td>aaa because in the former case you could just pass a string of consecutive characters into the tree builder and treat them as a single unit)

[04:13:01.0000] <hsivonen>
seems like no big deal in usual cases and bad in the kind of cases Philip` finds on the Web

[04:14:00.0000] <Philip`>
The case where I had problems was because a bug in my code put a megabyte of null bytes after a <table> - I don't think I encountered any real web content with the same problem

[04:14:01.0000] <hsivonen>
ok. then I don't optimize further than eliminating the O(n^2) behavior

[04:16:00.0000] <Philip`>
It seems a bit bad that I could cause you to use ~576 bytes of memory for every byte I send over the network

[04:17:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, how about also adding a note to clarify that <meta charset> doesn't actually have any effect in XHTML even if set to another value

[04:17:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: yeah. the alternative is adding the complexity of early coalescing...

[04:18:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: "There must not be more than one element with a charset attribute per document." sounds a bit misinterpretable, because you can have <script charset/><script charset/> in a document, so maybe it should be clarified to say "meta element"

[04:18:01.0000] <hsivonen>
which would have the benefit of saving per code-unit method invocation overhead with all tree builders

[04:19:00.0000] <hsivonen>
foster parenting is such an annoyance

[04:19:01.0000] <Lachy>
basically, something to preempt the bad advice about needing to use it to specify the encoding of XHTML, which we've already seen plenty of for XHTML1

[04:20:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me is now thoroughly confused about when it is OK to disagree with various parts of WCAG

[04:20:01.0000] <jgraham>
Does it make a difference if one is a self-proclaimed accessbility expert or not?

[04:21:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: Would early coalescing still result in <table>a</td>a</td>a... using ~576 bytes of memory for every 5 bytes I send over the network?

[04:21:01.0000] <Philip`>
(where '5 bytes' means 'approximately 1 bit, if I use compression')

[04:21:02.0000] <Hixie>
fixed the charset rules

[04:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
thanks for the feedback

[04:22:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: what's your pointer size if you get 576 instead of 120 or 92? 

[04:23:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: but yes

[04:23:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: note that you can already make SAX Tree use a lot of memory by sending <b>b</b>a<b>b</b>...

[04:23:02.0000] <Philip`>
"the resource must be encoded using the UTF-8 character encoding" - what does that mean? Could I write a file containing <meta charset="utf-8"/> and encode the characters as UTF-8, and then serve it as application/xhtml+xml;charset=iso-8859-1? I still encoded the resource as UTF-8

[04:23:03.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: Um...

[04:23:04.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: 64 bytes

[04:24:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: my pointer size is 64 *bits* ;-)

[04:24:01.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: I realise that now :-)

[04:24:02.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: that would be a violation of some other rule

[04:25:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: so it'd be like 7*64 + 2*32 bits, which is like 64 bytes, plus a little bit of overhead for the JVM, I guess

[04:25:01.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: When we have 512bit cpus then Philip` will look prophetic

[04:25:02.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: Even if the document is perfectly valid iso-8859-1?

[04:26:00.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: if it's actually US-ASCII, and thus both UTF-8 and ISO-8859-1, I don't really care if there's a mismatch.

[04:26:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: on of the requirements for SAX Tree is being able to reconstuct SAX Locator data upon playback

[04:26:02.0000] <hsivonen>
oops it's 7 pointers and 4 ints

[04:27:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: What if it's not US-ASCII, but still is both UTF-8 and ISO-8859-1?

[04:27:01.0000] <hsivonen>
plus JVM overhead, which I assume to be at least two pointers and one int (considering that there's an array involved)

[04:27:02.0000] <Philip`>
(with different meaning in each)

[04:28:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me can't count anymore

[04:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: well then there is a bug, because assuming you only have one document, one of the encodings is wrong.

[04:28:02.0000] <hsivonen>
anyway, a handful of pointers and ints :-)

[04:28:03.0000] <Hixie>
/me wonders if rubys wanted status updates only on the "Open issues with open and pending review action items" or on everything on the agenda

[04:28:04.0000] <Hixie>
the latter being way the hell too many things to comment on

[04:31:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: Fair enough :-)

[04:33:00.0000] <hsivonen>
considering how stable the parsing algorithm is, it changes surprisingly often.

[04:34:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: why no legacy encoding declaration for xhtml?

[04:34:01.0000] <Hixie>
hm?

[04:34:02.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: yeah :-(

[04:35:00.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: it'll be interesting to see how much the spec changes once we're in CR

[04:35:01.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: (If you're fixing non-linear behaviour, will you add some limit on <i><b><i><b><i><b></i>x</i>x</i>x too?)

[04:35:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: not today, no

[04:35:03.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: you only allowed <meta charset="utf-8"/> in xhtml, not <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"/>

[04:35:04.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: I'm only fixing insertBefore in SAX Tree and XOM not to search the children of the foster parent repeatedly

[04:36:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: Okay

[04:36:01.0000] <Philip`>
zcorpan: Encouraging people to say their application/xhtml+xml files are text/html seems like a confusing idea

[04:37:00.0000] <Philip`>
and given how many restrictions there already are when writing polyglot documents, having to use <meta charset> doesn't seem like a big deal

[04:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: yes? we only need one way to do this, as far as i can tell.

[04:39:01.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: ok, fair enough. it wasn't clear to me if it was intentional or not

[04:39:02.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[04:40:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: is it intended that the requirements in #character-encoding-declaration apply to xml too?

[04:40:01.0000] <Hixie>
no

[04:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
though i suppose it should

[04:41:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me goes to change that

[04:41:02.0000] <Hixie>
again

[04:50:00.0000] <Hixie>
http://getluky.net/2009/01/08/a-warning-about-the-real-cost-of-microformats/ seems to apply equally well to rdfa

[04:54:00.0000] <Philip`>
When I sort of tried using hCard once, the main difficulty was that its required structure didn't match the markup structure I wanted to use, so I ended up adding stuff like <span style=display:none>,</span> to get the right output for both hCard and visual display

[04:56:00.0000] <Philip`>
and if I was doing something more complex, like having details for multiple people mixed together in the same page, it seems it'd probably be impossible to get right

[04:57:00.0000] <Philip`>
RDFa seems much better in that regard, because you're just specifying a load of triples and you can put them wherever you want, rather than having to nest your markup precisely how someone thought your data should be nested

[04:57:01.0000] <Lachy>
Philip`, that's the same problem I encountered when I used hCard once

[04:58:00.0000] <Lachy>
hmm, I recall trying to use hcard on my own site's contact page once, but it appears I must have given up since it's not even there now

[04:58:01.0000] <jgraham>
Are microformats considered a success?

[04:59:00.0000] <Philip`>
(and RDFa adds @content for the cases where the structured data doesn't quite appear in the markup at all)

[04:59:01.0000] <Lachy>
jgraham, they're not a total failure, since they've been put to good use in some places that I've heard about. It's difficult to say whether they're a success though

[05:00:00.0000] <Philip`>
so if I have a page which says "<h1>Mr & Mrs Smith</h1> ...their postal address...", there isn't anything in the page which says "Mr Smith" so I can't associate the address with him if I'm using microformats, as far as I'm aware

[05:00:01.0000] <Lachy>
(one good use I heard about was in a university intranet, where contact pages were marked up with hcard and a service was provided to extract the information to a vcard

[05:01:00.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: Any good public examples? I tried using Operator once which is the kind of magic GUI generation thing that all the RDFa people are so excited about and it was just as bad as you might imagine an autogenerated GUI would be

[05:01:01.0000] <Philip`>
(I guess RDFa might have the problem that it can't associate the same address details with two separate people?)

[05:02:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: they don't seem like a total success in the sense that mainstream browsing setups doesn't support saving hCard and hCalendar entries into Address Book and iCal

[05:02:01.0000] <Philip`>
(but at least it works somewhat better than microformats in that case)

[05:05:00.0000] <hsivonen>
whee! I broke foster parenting

[05:06:00.0000] <zcorpan>
/me wonders whether hsivonen is happy to check that <meta charset="utf-8"/> is within 512 bytes and doesn't use entities in xml

[05:06:01.0000] <Philip`>
Think of the children!

[05:06:02.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: I'm not

[05:06:03.0000] <Philip`>
You can't just go around breaking their critical support structures :-(

[05:06:04.0000] <Lachy>
jgraham, I think this is the one I mentioned above. It seems it is public after all. http://www.griffith.edu.au/cgi-bin/phone_search.pl?format=browse_detail&gotFrame=y&rec_num=1854

[05:07:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok nn

[05:08:00.0000] <zcorpan>
nn

[05:09:00.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: That is only really interesting if you have a client that doesn't need tht VCard though (since otherwise you may as well ignore the microformat and generate the vCard on the server)

[05:09:01.0000] <jgraham>
nn

[05:09:02.0000] <jgraham>
^That was simed at Hixie

[05:11:00.0000] <hsivonen>
something weird happens with the new foster parenting rule with <a><table><a>

[05:12:00.0000] <hsivonen>
although the new rule isn't supposed to change anything in non-scripted scenarios

[05:14:00.0000] <Lachy>
jgraham, yeah, except I think the service itself uses the hcard markup to generate the vcard. But I could be wrong, and perhaps it just generates it directly from the database.

[05:18:00.0000] <hsivonen>
aargh. the foster parenting breaks compat

[05:19:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I haven't yet figured out why

[05:23:00.0000] <hsivonen>
ok. figured out why

[05:24:00.0000] <hsivonen>
the second <a> removes the previous <a> from stack before foster parenting runs

[05:27:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Lachy: there's a requirement in the "encoding declaration state" text that prevents having both <meta charset> and <meta content...>

[05:28:00.0000] <zcorpan>
although i agree it could be clearer

[05:28:01.0000] <zcorpan>
e.g. by being a bullet-point in the list of requirements for encoding declarations

[05:34:00.0000] <Lachy>
zcorpan, feel free to comment on the bug about that

[05:53:00.0000] <annevk2>
Hixie, I'd argue <meta charset="utf8"/> and friends should be ok as well...

[05:53:01.0000] <annevk2>
or is there a requirement that you use the canonical version of the character encoding somewhere?

[05:58:00.0000] <Lachy>
annevk2, utf8 isn't a valid alias of UTF-8

[05:58:01.0000] <Lachy>
it's not listed here http://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets

[05:59:00.0000] <annevk2>
it matches per Unicode though

[05:59:01.0000] <annevk2>
but fair enough I suppose

[06:00:00.0000] <rubys>
I'm very much OK with Ian crafting a very narrow exception that permits just this one use case

[06:03:00.0000] <Philip`>
"If you are Sam Ruby then you MAY include the byte sequence <meta charset="UTF-8" /> in XML documents"

[06:03:01.0000] <Lachy>
hey, was the requirement that <meta charset> had to be the first element in the <head> dropped?

[06:03:02.0000] <Lachy>
I'm updating the FAQ, and that's still mentioned in there.

[06:03:03.0000] <rubys>
um, that's a wee bit too narrow.  :-)

[06:03:04.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: yes, the first child req sucked

[06:04:00.0000] <Lachy>
ok, I'll change it in the FAQ to make it a recommendation for authors only.

[06:05:00.0000] <annevk2>
rubys, but I'm not :p

[06:06:00.0000] <rubys>
annevk2: go for it!  But seriously, the goal isn't to get meta charset support for XHTML5 documents; if that were the goal, I'd argue for ISO-8859-7 and any other ASCII-based but non ISO-8859-1 based charset.

[06:07:00.0000] <annevk2>
I should probably check the exact requirements on <meta charset> in general

[06:07:01.0000] <annevk2>
I'm fine with polyglot being restricted to UTF-8

[06:09:00.0000] <rubys>
For maximal interop, all XML should be either UTF-8 or UTF-16.

[06:10:00.0000] <annevk2>
ah, it seems it is consistent with <meta charset> requirements

[06:10:01.0000] <hsivonen>
did Hixie impose the 512 byte req on XHTML?

[06:10:02.0000] <annevk2>
though it would be slightly better imo if it just said that the encoding was restricted to utf-8

[06:10:03.0000] <annevk2>
hsivonen, that's the intent

[06:10:04.0000] <hsivonen>
not cool

[06:11:00.0000] <annevk2>
because in that case the other requirements would follow naturally

[06:11:01.0000] <hsivonen>
after all, XHTML5 validation doesn't otherwise involve checking that the doc is a polyglot doc

[06:12:00.0000] <rubys>
Do you flag, as an error, a meta charset after 512 in text/html?

[06:13:00.0000] <hsivonen>
rubys: I think I do. If I don't, it's a regression.

[06:14:00.0000] <rubys>
my question was error vs warning.

[06:14:01.0000] <hsivonen>
rubys: however, I'm not at all interested in implementing the same check into an XML parser I didn't write

[06:14:02.0000] <rubys>
the feed validator has a select few checks it does on the byte stream before passing the whole mess off to the xml parser

[06:15:00.0000] <hsivonen>
rubys: still works, and it's an error

[06:17:00.0000] <Lachy>
hsivonen, just give a warning to users when its encountered in XHTML saying the 512 byte restriction was not checked

[06:18:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: giving a warning means I can't implement the check as a RELAX NG datatype

[06:18:01.0000] <hsivonen>
(even after hacking Jing to expose the encoding to datatypes)

[06:18:02.0000] <Lachy>
I don't think the 512 byte restriction needs to apply to XHTML, since it's just a talisman in that case

[06:18:03.0000] <annevk2>
(was just going to ask about that)

[06:19:00.0000] <hsivonen>
eww. we now have a "frameset-ok" flag? :-(

[06:20:00.0000] <Philip`>
If you want to write a valid polyglot document, you'll already have to validate it as both HTML and XHTML to detect all the errors, and so it'll warn you about the 512-byte thing when you validate as HTML, and it doesn't need an extra warning in XHTML

[06:20:01.0000] <rubys>
lachy: a warning was my thoughts too

[06:20:02.0000] <rubys>
but I don't sense that hsivonen's reluctance has anything to do with warning vs error, more with having to do the check at all

[06:21:00.0000] <Lachy>
FAQ updated http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#How_do_I_specify_the_character_encoding.3F

[06:22:00.0000] <Philip`>
I think the reluctance is because it's ugly to implement a correct check, and Lachy was suggesting a vague non-correct warning instead (which is easier to implement because it doesn't violate layering)

[06:22:01.0000] <Philip`>
s/non-correct/non-precise/

[06:22:02.0000] <Philip`>
s/vague//

[06:22:03.0000] <Philip`>
s/.*//

[06:22:04.0000] <rubys>
lol

[06:26:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: dude! you added a whitespaceness-sensitive action to the most common insertion mode!

[06:27:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: You don't have to check the whitespaceness except in the rare cases when frameset-ok == ok, though

[06:28:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: still, not nice

[06:30:00.0000] <Philip`>
Split the mode into in-body-and-frameset-ok and in-body-and-frameset-not-ok modes, and switch between them the appropriate time, and then the latter mode won't have to do anything fancy at all :-)

[06:30:01.0000] <Philip`>
/me guesses it's not really that easy in practice

[06:33:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me discovers that "mae east" and "mae west" give very different sets of results on Google

[06:34:00.0000] <hsivonen>
what's the logic in what start tags set frameset-ok to "not ok"?

[06:35:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: treating frameset-ok as an insertion mode looks like a sensible idea on the face of it

[06:35:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: is there a reason why frameset-ok is not an insertion mode?

[06:37:00.0000] <jgraham>
Today we will be playing a game called confuse the f**k out of james about how, when, or if, people advocating @summary think it should be used

[06:37:01.0000] <rubys>
oooh, can I plan?

[06:37:02.0000] <jgraham>
This is not a hard game because james is easilly confused

[06:37:03.0000] <rubys>
s/plan/play/... more funnier that way

[06:38:00.0000] <jgraham>
rubys: Sure, let me just reset my confusedness bit

[06:39:00.0000] <annevk2>
/me sets it to one

[06:39:01.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: It's not necessary to know how or when @summary should be used; it suffices to prove the existence of cases where it should be used, and thus it must be allowed, regardless of what anyone's actually going to do with it

[06:42:00.0000] <Lachy>
hsivonen, I think there's a bug in your parser. http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Ftinyurl.com%2Fbqpwl9&showsource=yes

[06:42:01.0000] <Lachy>
have you not added support for <datalist> yet?

[06:45:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: for now, I don't understand why that happens

[06:46:00.0000] <Lachy>
would you like me to file a bug about it?

[06:46:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: that would help, yes.

[06:47:00.0000] <hsivonen>
??? how could the stack have an <option> element on it in any case?

[06:47:01.0000] <hsivonen>
/me reads changes to </body> 'in body'

[06:48:00.0000] <Dashiva>
If </datalist> doesn't close </option>...

[06:51:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: I think Dashiva has the answer

[06:52:00.0000] <Lachy>
but <datalist> should close the <option>, shouldn't it? Just like <select> does

[06:54:00.0000] <Lachy>
but there's also the other error about list="" not pointing to a datalist or select element, which doens't make sesne.

[06:57:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hmm, the BBC iPlayer appears to provide subtitles using http://www.w3.org/TR/ttaf1-dfxp/

[06:57:01.0000] <hsivonen>
I think it's weird that <var> doesn't behave like the other italicizing elements when it comes to AAA

[06:58:00.0000] <Lachy>
hsivonen, I got an error from your bugzilla: "undef error - Insecure dependency in exec while running with -T switch at /usr/share/perl5/Mail/Mailer/sendmail.pm line 22. "

[06:58:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: do they have a dedicated app that consumes DFXP?

[06:58:02.0000] <Lachy>
that showed up after I tried to submit a new bug report

[06:58:03.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: yeah, that's annoying. Sorry about that. I have no idea how to fix.

[06:59:00.0000] <Lachy>
should I just try again, or just email you the bug report instead?

[06:59:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: no, the bug was filed ok. Thanks

[06:59:02.0000] <Philip`>
http://philip.html5.org/misc/subtitles-1.xml

[06:59:03.0000] <Lachy>
ok

[06:59:04.0000] <Philip`>
(Was that transcribed live? It looks pretty rubbish quality...)

[07:00:00.0000] <Philip`>
(which is strange since it's a prerecorded show)

[07:01:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://philip.html5.org/misc/subtitles-2.xml looks much better quality

[07:03:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: The streaming Flash player doesn't seem to support subtitles, as far as I've seen; I don't know about the offline downloader application, or about the versions on other devices

[07:04:00.0000] <Philip`>
Oh

[07:05:00.0000] <Philip`>
Apparently the Flash version does, and I just haven't clicked on that button

[07:05:01.0000] <Philip`>
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/12/iplayer_subtitles_increase_our.html

[07:05:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: do you know if BBC ever uses features that go beyond rendering plain string at given times?

[07:06:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: The subtitles-2.xml uses colours to distinguish speakers

[07:06:01.0000] <danbri>
/me doesn't know

[07:07:00.0000] <danbri>
at joost we had quite a fancy api for subtitles / annotations, ...

[07:07:01.0000] <danbri>
...but not much actual data 

[07:10:00.0000] <Philip`>
(subtitles-2 uses multiple colours in a single line to distinguish speakers, too)

[07:11:00.0000] <jgraham>
Do they outline in a different colour to make sure the words stand out against the background?

[07:12:00.0000] <hsivonen>
interesting. I'm surprised that someone actually uses the more advanced features at all

[07:12:01.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3128/3131207136_59b2f4dccf_o.jpg looks outlined

[07:14:00.0000] <Philip`>
Oh, the colours don't work at all in the Flash player

[07:14:01.0000] <Philip`>
It's all just white with black outline

[07:14:02.0000] <hsivonen>
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/134727/whats-the-key-difference-between-html4-and-html5/135585#135585

[07:14:03.0000] <hsivonen>
"HTML 5 invites you give add a lot of semantic value to your code."

[07:15:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me looks at half a dozen other subtitle files, but none appear to use anything more complex than colour and <br/>

[07:16:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me supposes the offline player might not ignore colours

[07:17:00.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: It is well known that HTML n+1 has that property for all n because semantics are good and so newer releases must add more of them. Or something.

[07:19:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Your explanation is incomplete, as it does not include the fact that XHTML 1.0 has more semantic value than HTML 4

[07:20:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: Adding an X to the front puts you on a triple semantics score

[07:20:01.0000] <hsivonen>
/me mumbles about releases with .2 minor number

[07:21:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I'm puzzled by the the modeness of 'in foreign' and the flagness of frameset-ok

[07:22:00.0000] <hsivonen>
seems backwards to me :-)

[07:53:00.0000] <hsivonen>
so the new thread-friendly AAA sometimes creates a node that isn't needed. seems harmless enough if the test cases are any indication

[07:53:01.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: There yet?

[07:54:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: Yes

[07:54:01.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: See my changes to Anolis?

[07:54:02.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: No

[07:54:03.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: Go, look.

[07:56:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: Just pulled them

[07:58:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: From the logs it seems good. I'll need to change the frontend to match the new option names

[07:58:01.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: I don't understand your question about html5lib 0.12

[07:58:02.0000] <jgraham>
the ns stuff

[07:59:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: Does the SVG/MathML branch put HTML elements into the HTML namespace?

[07:59:01.0000] <jgraham>
Optionally yes

[07:59:02.0000] <gsnedders>
k

[07:59:03.0000] <jgraham>
I am prepared to be persuaded about the default value of that option

[07:59:04.0000] <gsnedders>
I'd say yes, per spec.

[07:59:05.0000] <jgraham>
(my preference is "no")

[08:00:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: So, per Hixie's latest tinking there is no spec for libraries except insofar as they are used in a UA. Therefore I can do what I like as long as there is at least an option to make the behaviour conforming :)_

[08:00:01.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: I'm not entirely sure I agree with that reading of the spec

[08:01:00.0000] <gsnedders>
I know it's what Hixie meant by the edit, but I'm not entirely convinced from the text.

[08:01:01.0000] <hsivonen>
I'm not convinced that letting browsers and libs diverge is a good thing

[08:01:02.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: Which edit (I was talking about an IRC conversation)

[08:01:03.0000] <jgraham>
?

[08:02:00.0000] <gsnedders>
The spec should, for parsing, define what the output tree should be like. What is doing the parsing should be irrelevant.

[08:02:01.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: I can't remember :P

[08:04:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Libraries don't necessarily output trees; it only makes sense to require a tree in (scripted) browsers, where there has to be a DOM tree that results from parsing

[08:05:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: What else could the library do? It needs to be a tree — it doesn't work streaming without fatal errors.

[08:05:01.0000] <Philip`>
If you don't have a whole browser, HTML5 doesn't define any way to determine the output of parsing, so there's no restriction on libraries

[08:05:02.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: You could stream a mutation event

[08:06:00.0000] <Philip`>
You could construct an internal tree and then stream it out as a series of events

[08:06:01.0000] <Philip`>
You could output a stream of RDF triples

[08:07:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me collapses off his chair laughing at the suggestion

[08:07:01.0000] <Philip`>
You could strip all the tags and just output plain text

[08:07:02.0000] <Philip`>
There's lots of things a parser library could (and should be allowed to) do

[08:11:00.0000] <hsivonen>
the triple thing could work. you could use http://n.whatwg.org/2009/02/23/previous-sibling as a predicate that gives order to children that have the same http://n.whatwg.org/2009/02/23/parent

[08:12:00.0000] <Philip`>
Presumably you'd have to generate a GUID-based URI for every element in the document

[08:24:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me stretches

[08:24:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Time to review Web sockets, me thinks

[10:23:00.0000] <karlcow>
I wonder if this explains the social behavior of many geeks in the silicon valley - http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/03/30/a_singles_map_of_the_united_states_of_america/

[10:31:00.0000] <jrharshath>
I was going through a few threads of the whatwg's mailing list archives...

[10:31:01.0000] <jrharshath>
can anyone tell me what the TCPConnection() thing is?

[10:32:00.0000] <Lachy>
it was a DOM api for creating TCP connections. I think it was largely replaced by WebSockets

[10:33:00.0000] <jrharshath>
TCP connections to ... ?

[10:33:01.0000] <jrharshath>
to the server where the web app originated from, i'd guess?

[10:37:00.0000] <Philip`>
jrharshath: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2007-10-26/multipage/section-network.html#tcpconnection

[10:41:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jrharshath: Anywhere, IIRC

[10:42:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me is wrong

[10:42:01.0000] <gsnedders>
(again)

[10:48:00.0000] <jrharshath>
gsnedders: pardon? i am new to IRC, so i don't follow the jargon..

[11:55:00.0000] <jrharshath>
On http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2007-10-26/multipage/section-network.html#tcpconnection, I read: "This interface does not allow for raw access to the underlying network. For example, this interface could not be used to implement an IRC client without proxying messages through a custom server."

[11:55:01.0000] <jrharshath>
I also read that "[the network connections interface will ] enable Web applications to communicate with each other in local area networks..."

[11:56:00.0000] <jrharshath>
what do the two statements imply?

[11:56:01.0000] <Philip`>
jrharshath: You can connect to arbitrary servers, but only using a special protocol which is incompatible with standard protocols

[11:57:00.0000] <jrharshath>
so its not like writing a C program and opening a TCP Socket?

[11:57:01.0000] <Philip`>
No

[11:57:02.0000] <Philip`>
because that would be very insecure

[11:58:00.0000] <Philip`>
e.g. it would let you speak HTTP to any server, and circumvent all the same-origin restrictions in current browsers

[11:58:01.0000] <jrharshath>
hmm.. I agree.

[11:58:02.0000] <jrharshath>
can you give me more reasons please?

[12:00:00.0000] <Philip`>
Isn't that enough reason? :-)

[12:03:00.0000] <jrharshath>
and, what would the special protocol be?

[12:04:00.0000] <Philip`>
It would be whatever is described in the spec, I presume

[12:05:00.0000] <Philip`>
in section 6.3.7.1

[12:05:01.0000] <jrharshath>
okay, got to it.

[12:05:02.0000] <jrharshath>
ty :)

[14:17:00.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: i could have the spec say that if there's a <meta charset=""> in an XML doc, the doc must also validate as a text/html doc :-)

[14:17:01.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: i can remove the 512 requirement if you don't think it's useful

[14:41:00.0000] <roc>
Hixie: thanks for all those video edits. they look good so far

[14:54:00.0000] <Hixie>
roc: cool. i was worried about the load algorithm one when i realised that it'd have to change quite a bit to actually work :-/

[14:54:01.0000] <Hixie>
roc: looks like i had totally broken loading when i made the algorithm actually fetch the media files to check them one by one

[14:54:02.0000] <Hixie>
instead of relying on the type as we originally did

[14:54:03.0000] <Hixie>
btw we really need to figure something out about the codec

[14:55:00.0000] <Hixie>
every time i look at a demo i find it only works in one of firefox or safari

[14:55:01.0000] <roc>
the codec?

[14:55:02.0000] <Hixie>
finding a video codec.

[14:55:03.0000] <Hixie>
for everyone to use.

[14:58:00.0000] <roc>
yeah

[14:58:01.0000] <roc>
we're doing our best on that :-)

[14:58:02.0000] <roc>
I guess Wave is one that everyone supports

[14:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
audio isn't such a problem

[14:59:01.0000] <Philip`>
Google should give Mozilla a zillion dollars to buy up all the MPEG patents

[15:02:00.0000] <roc>
don't start

[15:02:01.0000] <roc>
Google should ship Ogg in Chrome and crush like a bug anyone who causes trouble

[15:04:00.0000] <scherkus>
woah I missed all this delay-the-load stuff

[15:10:00.0000] <scherkus>
what's an example of using delay-the-load?

[15:14:00.0000] <roc>
scherkus: what do you mean?

[15:14:01.0000] <roc>
like how does a Web page use it?

[15:15:00.0000] <roc>
<body onload="alert('loaded')"><video src="foo.ogg"></video></body>

[15:15:01.0000] <roc>
the alert shouldn't fire until the video has reached HAVE_CURRENT_DATA, i.e. is sized correctly and display the first frame

[15:15:02.0000] <scherkus>
ahhh

[15:16:00.0000] <scherkus>
thanks

[15:17:00.0000] <scherkus>
for some reason I usually check w3.org's version of the spec

[15:17:01.0000] <scherkus>
a bad habit to get into considering how out of date it is atm

[15:17:02.0000] <Lachy>
scherkus, do you mean the /TR/html5 copy?

[15:17:03.0000] <Lachy>
that one will always be out of date, until it reaches REC

[15:17:04.0000] <scherkus>
Lachy: looks like it

[15:18:00.0000] <Lachy>
the copy on whatwg.org is better cause it has a lot of nice little extra features that make the spec more usable

[15:18:01.0000] <Lachy>
and it looks better than the W3C CVS copy on dev.w3.org


2009-02-24
[16:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
oooh, chaals praised the existence of something i asked for

[16:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
first hit for "moma html opera": "New York Private MoMA and Opera Backstage Tour"

[16:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
not what i meant...

[16:51:02.0000] <gavin_>
isn't it mama?

[16:51:03.0000] <Hixie>
yes

[16:51:04.0000] <Hixie>
but usually google fixes that kind of thing for me! :-)

[17:33:00.0000] <deltab>
Google seems to be 'correcting' more aggressively now: for instance, try searching for elementmoveto

[17:36:00.0000] <deltab>
and I think it should correct hashchanged to hashchange, not "has changed" :-)

[18:02:00.0000] <Hixie>
holy crap zcorpan, you're amazing

[18:02:01.0000] <Hixie>
all these status markers!

[18:03:00.0000] <Hixie>
i wonder if we should ban <caption> when the table is in a <figure>

[18:18:00.0000] <kinetik>
Hixie: Is the video element intended to resume playback after seeking completes if it was playing back prior to the seek?

[18:18:01.0000] <kinetik>
I think that's what you want, but I'm having trouble convincing myself that the spec says that's what should happen.

[18:18:02.0000] <Hixie>
yes

[18:18:03.0000] <Hixie>
the video doesn't stop "potentially playing" while seeking

[18:19:00.0000] <Hixie>
er

[18:19:01.0000] <Hixie>
that's a lie

[18:19:02.0000] <Hixie>
let me rephrase

[18:19:03.0000] <Hixie>
the video is defined to play back while it is "potentially playing", which becomes true again once there is data to play, if paused is false

[18:19:04.0000] <Hixie>
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#potentially-playing

[18:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
(the spec says "When a media element is potentially playing and its Document is an active document, its current playback position must increase monotonically at playbackRate units of media time per unit time of wall clock time.")

[18:21:00.0000] <kinetik>
Hixie: ah, I see, thanks

[18:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: it would be interesting for the validator to report tables that, once you've applied the CSS, have no borders.

[18:38:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me wonders how many of the statuses zcorpan didn't touch

[18:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
sam wants me to deal with profile="" next, but i've no idea what i am supposed to do

[18:52:01.0000] <Hixie>
so i shall go eat instead

[18:54:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: Comfort eating, again? :P

[19:14:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me shakes head at the size of the to and cc lists of the latest email to public-html

[19:45:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Would I be right to say that <link xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2004/Atom" href="foobar"> is non-conforming because the @href isn't an IRI?

[19:46:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Actually, the spec is probably referring to IRI-reference by "IRI reference"

[21:24:00.0000] <gsnedders>
http://stuff.gsnedders.com/atom-export.html

[21:41:00.0000] <annevk>
The Live DOM Viewer does not do JavaScript?

[22:00:00.0000] <annevk>
gsnedders, if we're going with xref rather than title, please just name it data-xref=""

[22:00:01.0000] <annevk>
unlikely specs will need another xref

[22:00:02.0000] <gsnedders>
annevk: Blame Hixie. He came up with data-anolis-xref :P

[22:00:03.0000] <annevk>
ok

[22:00:04.0000] <annevk>
/me blames Hixie

[22:00:05.0000] <annevk>
will you change it now?

[22:00:06.0000] <gsnedders>
Send email, and I'll change it sometime

[22:01:00.0000] <gsnedders>
(before 1.1)

[23:10:00.0000] <annevk>
"accessibility theater" I like it

[23:49:00.0000] <sayrer>
annevk: interoperation with validators? honestly!

[23:52:00.0000] <hsivonen>
"interoperation with validators"?

[23:52:01.0000] <annevk>
sayrer, glad I listed some others :)

[23:52:02.0000] <sayrer>
those were bad too!

[23:52:03.0000] <sayrer>
:)

[23:53:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me wonders what is being discussed

[23:53:01.0000] <annevk>
www-archive

[23:53:02.0000] <sayrer>
hsivonen, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Feb/0108.html

[23:53:03.0000] <sayrer>
and anne's reply

[23:53:04.0000] <hsivonen>
thanks

[23:53:05.0000] <gsnedders>
Is it bad that all the random poetry I have in my ringbinder for school is in the computing section?

[23:54:00.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: requiring authors not to use reserved element or attribute names is relevant to future interop, though

[23:54:01.0000] <sayrer>
maybe

[23:55:00.0000] <sayrer>
that is a very small part of the requirements placed on documents, aiui

[23:56:00.0000] <annevk>
the same goes for possible syntax extensions, etc.

[23:56:01.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: also, if one wants validators to be substitutable, then there's an uniformness (aka. interop in W3C speak) issue between validators

[23:57:00.0000] <sayrer>
hsivonen, I agree that validators have to "agree" on the content of the spec. are you saying something different?

[23:57:01.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: I'm saying that if validators have to agree on the validation target, then there's an interop-sensitive thing going between validators

[23:58:00.0000] <hsivonen>
which isn't exactly relevant to interop between browsers

[23:58:01.0000] <sayrer>
hsivonen, and thus the requirements placed in the document now are ok?

[23:58:02.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: many are ok, in my opinion. there are some that I disagree with.

[23:59:00.0000] <sayrer>
(I totally don't agree with that, but I want to understand)

[23:59:01.0000] <sayrer>
hsivonen, I mean the division highlighted by the note I quoted

[00:00:00.0000] <sayrer>
that rationale would seem to make the requirement in RFC2119 meaningless

[00:00:01.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: I agree that there should be no implied relationship as far as the spec reader does the implication. I think the spec writer needs to keep the relationship sane.

[00:01:00.0000] <sayrer>
I don't understand what you agree with or what you think, no malice intended

[00:01:01.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: we are still discussing the passage quoted in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Feb/0108.html right?

[00:02:00.0000] <sayrer>
right

[00:02:01.0000] <sayrer>
my question is this

[00:02:02.0000] <sayrer>
how does the spec call a document non-conforming if it still interoperable?

[00:02:03.0000] <sayrer>
it's

[00:03:00.0000] <sayrer>
and it claims to use RFC2119

[00:03:01.0000] <sayrer>
something has to give

[00:03:02.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: the RFC 2119 criteria for use of MUST includes another thing

[00:03:03.0000] <hsivonen>
"to limit behavior which has potential for causing harm

[00:03:04.0000] <hsivonen>
"

[00:03:05.0000] <hsivonen>
the MUST that apply to authors are supposed to limit "harm"

[00:04:00.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: I'm sure people disagree on what constitutes "harm"

[00:04:01.0000] <sayrer>
ok, where is the potential for harm?

[00:04:02.0000] <sayrer>
given a conformant HTML5 user agent

[00:04:03.0000] <sayrer>
user agents that don't conform to HTML5 are likely to do terrible things

[00:05:00.0000] <sayrer>
even with documents that match all the requirements that are in there today

[00:05:01.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: the authoring "harm" harms users or authors who maintain what has been authored

[00:05:02.0000] <sayrer>
hsivonen, I don't see a tenable interpretation here. I could be wrong.

[00:06:00.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: example: making @profile non-conforming protects authors from the harm of the epic waste of time that including no-op syntax is

[00:06:01.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: example: making <font> non-conforming protects users from the harm of media-dependent design

[00:06:02.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: I fully expect you to disagree that there is 'harm'

[00:06:03.0000] <sayrer>
well, reasonable people can disagree

[00:06:04.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: I disagree with some assumed 'harms' myself

[00:07:00.0000] <sayrer>
hsivonen, the default wordpress template includes @profile. My blog got that for free. :)

[00:07:01.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: do you find the entire concept of document conformance flawed?

[00:08:00.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: it costs your host in bandwidth bills :-)

[00:08:01.0000] <sayrer>
so would lots of features in HTML5

[00:09:00.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: if you add something that the profile doesn't cover as far as angels on a head of a pin are concerned, dealing with people emailing you about your incorrect profile would cost you in terms of the annoyance of dealing with the feedback

[00:10:00.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: if you hadn't gotten the wordpress profile for free, would adding the 'right' profile values be a useful activity for you?

[00:10:01.0000] <sayrer>
beats me

[00:10:02.0000] <sayrer>
(honestly)

[00:10:03.0000] <sayrer>
though I do doubt it

[00:11:00.0000] <sayrer>
hsivonen, I don't find the concept of validators flawed. they help people fix mistakes they didn't know about.

[00:11:01.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: if you wouldn't add a profile yourself but might use a microformat without profile, would you consider massive permathreads about the right profile URIs for use with those formats an epic waste of time for humanity?

[00:12:00.0000] <sayrer>
I might use a microformat without knowing I am using a microformat, because they squat short strings

[00:12:01.0000] <sayrer>
not that there is anything wrong with that

[00:13:00.0000] <sayrer>
and, yes, I would consider a massive permathread an epic waste of time

[00:13:01.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: well, there's 'harm' from profile

[00:14:00.0000] <sayrer>
hsivonen, you mean from spec mailing lists? some people don't want relief from the pain.

[00:15:00.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: well, discussing profile is a huge time sink for the HTML WG. However, if the HTML WG doesn't get rid of profile, over the years profile will sink much more human effort.

[00:15:01.0000] <sayrer>
maybe. less than em vs. b?

[00:16:00.0000] <sayrer>
less than "semantic" whatever?

[00:16:01.0000] <sayrer>
highly questionable

[00:16:02.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: discussing em vs. i is a total waste of time, too.

[00:16:03.0000] <sayrer>
er

[00:16:04.0000] <sayrer>
yeah :)

[00:16:05.0000] <hsivonen>
the right solution would have been to never introduce em, strong, var, and dfn

[00:17:00.0000] <hsivonen>
but now that both em and i are in use, taking away either would be too disruptive

[00:17:01.0000] <sayrer>
yeah, and it doesn't matter a whole lot

[00:17:02.0000] <hsivonen>
however, we might just get away with zapping profile still

[00:17:03.0000] <sayrer>
would you consider that a great victory?

[00:17:04.0000] <hsivonen>
no

[00:18:00.0000] <sayrer>
a small one?

[00:18:01.0000] <sayrer>
a victory against what?

[00:18:02.0000] <sayrer>
I honestly have no idea

[00:18:03.0000] <sayrer>
against wasted bits? I have several vendors you may wish to contact

[00:18:04.0000] <annevk>
it simplifies the language

[00:19:00.0000] <annevk>
you consider the Dreamweaver thing a serious implementation?

[00:19:01.0000] <sayrer>
really? I thought no one used it

[00:19:02.0000] <annevk>
well, some people do, and apparently a whole bunch of people thought it actually did something, including the guys from WordPress

[00:19:03.0000] <sayrer>
sure, I consider Mozilla a serious implementation as well. we do useless things.

[00:19:04.0000] <sayrer>
annevk, they did it because tantek said to.

[00:20:00.0000] <annevk>
no, I meant what Dreamweaver did for profile=""

[00:20:01.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: a small victory against permathreads

[00:20:02.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: huh? Mozilla does something with profile?

[00:21:00.0000] <sayrer>
hsivonen, I meant that Mozilla does useless things, but I still consider it a serious implementation

[00:21:01.0000] <sayrer>
since it mostly does non-useless things

[00:21:02.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: but those useless things aren't relevant to profile?

[00:22:00.0000] <sayrer>
hsivonen, annevk asked a question about whether I considered Dreamweaver a serious implementation in relation to @profile. I think the two issues are orthogonal.

[00:22:01.0000] <annevk>
no, I meant if you considered what Dreamweaver did for profile="" to be serious

[00:23:00.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: fwiw, when the microformats community instructs people to use profile, I think they violate the Priority of Constituencies principle by putting the political convenience of specifiers ahead of the convenience of implementors and authors

[00:23:01.0000] <sayrer>
annevk, sorry. and no, not at all.

[00:23:02.0000] <annevk>
because it looks like they treat it as an attribute that takes a URL without providing any UI that makes sense for the feature

[00:23:03.0000] <hsivonen>
it's not their principle, though

[00:23:04.0000] <annevk>
(besides the fact that profile="" takes a space-separated list of URLs; one might argue Dreamweaver is buggy)

[00:24:00.0000] <hsivonen>
yay, QA cost of profile

[00:24:01.0000] <sayrer>
hsivonen, I think arguments that run for the charter or design principles are only useful when something is really off the rails. like some XHTML stuff.

[00:24:02.0000] <sayrer>
I don't see how there is a QA cost if it doesn't do anything

[00:25:00.0000] <sayrer>
there is a real cost to <o:p>

[00:25:01.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: there's the cost of checking that you can enter the right kind of talismans

[00:25:02.0000] <hsivonen>
in general, I disagree with the argument that no-op talismans have no cost. 

[00:25:03.0000] <sayrer>
ah

[00:26:00.0000] <hsivonen>
every piece of spec text has a cost

[00:26:01.0000] <sayrer>
yes

[00:26:02.0000] <sayrer>
do you buy the backward compatibility argument?

[00:26:03.0000] <hsivonen>
even if it is only the cost of people making the informed decision that the text is silly and needs to implmentation action

[00:26:04.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: which argument?

[00:26:05.0000] <sayrer>
that HTML5 must be backward compatible?

[00:27:00.0000] <annevk>
backwards compatible with what?

[00:27:01.0000] <sayrer>
with content that uses @profile, like my blog

[00:27:02.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: I buy it in the sense that a consumer agent implementing HTML5 should not continue to work with existing Web content

[00:28:00.0000] <sayrer>
should continue to work, you mean?

[00:28:01.0000] <annevk>
we're already incompatible with your blog

[00:28:02.0000] <annevk>
e.g. with the DOCTYPE

[00:28:03.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: well, if agents now do nothing with profile, backward compat requires them not to do any thing with it

[00:29:00.0000] <sayrer>
annevk. user agents would change their parsing of my blog? 

[00:29:01.0000] <sayrer>
hsivonen, is @profile reserved by Ian's HTML5 document?

[00:30:00.0000] <annevk>
sayrer, no

[00:30:01.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: yes, it is reserved

[00:30:02.0000] <sayrer>
hsivonen, is the hope that we can some day unreserve it?

[00:30:03.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: no

[00:30:04.0000] <sayrer>
then I am a little lost

[00:30:05.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: it is forever tainted

[00:30:06.0000] <sayrer>
you say forever tainted, I say forever "defined"

[00:31:00.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: how would you define it?

[00:31:01.0000] <sayrer>
similarly to RSS2 <textinput>

[00:31:02.0000] <annevk>
a change to the DOCTYPE on your blog would change the layout model

[00:32:00.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: sorry, my knowledge of RSS2 details is so rusty that I don't get the analogy

[00:32:01.0000] <sayrer>
"The purpose of the <textInput> element is something of a mystery. You can use it to specify a search engine box. Or to allow a reader to provide feedback. Most aggregators ignore it."

[00:32:02.0000] <sayrer>
http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/rss/rss.html#lttextinputgtSubelementOfLtchannelgt

[00:33:00.0000] <annevk>
anyway, my point was that todays content is not compatible with HTML5 requirements on content and whether or not profile= is conforming is orthogonal to that unless we change other things first

[00:33:01.0000] <sayrer>
annevk, I don't get your point at all

[00:33:02.0000] <annevk>
ok, not sure how else to put it

[00:33:03.0000] <sayrer>
this entire argument is about whether requirements on content matter 

[00:33:04.0000] <sayrer>
or at least how much they matter

[00:34:00.0000] <annevk>
well, I asked "backwards compatible with what"

[00:34:01.0000] <annevk>
you said with your content

[00:34:02.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: so do you think "The purpose of profile is something of a mystery." would meet the level of spec quality we are after with HTML5?

[00:34:03.0000] <annevk>
I said that your content was incompatible regardless

[00:34:04.0000] <sayrer>
I see, sloppy

[00:34:05.0000] <sayrer>
backwards compatible with current parsing of my content

[00:34:06.0000] <annevk>
I don't see what that has to do with @profile

[00:35:00.0000] <sayrer>
hsivonen, it is a true statment, so we have that at least

[00:35:01.0000] <annevk>
and no, there's no parsing differences between limited quirks mode and no quirks mode

[00:35:02.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: it doesn't say what authors or implementors need to do with it, so it's not a very useful true statement

[00:36:00.0000] <sayrer>
it says it is a mystery

[00:36:01.0000] <sayrer>
and user agents might ignore it

[00:36:02.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: btw, would you consider getting profile into HTML5 a victory, and if so, against what?

[00:36:03.0000] <sayrer>
that would be useful to me

[00:37:00.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: how?

[00:37:01.0000] <sayrer>
hsivonen, a victory against declaring most extant Wordpress blogs invalid

[00:37:02.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: I see

[00:37:03.0000] <annevk>
sayrer, they are invalid regardless of @profile!

[00:37:04.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: HTML5 does declare them invalid for other reasons, though

[00:37:05.0000] <sayrer>
ok, let them be invalid for better reasons

[00:38:00.0000] <sayrer>
better reasons than /> and @profile

[00:38:01.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: would it address your concern if HTML5 allowed profile with the exact value "http://gmpg.org/xfn/11"?

[00:39:00.0000] <sayrer>
that seems weird, and doesn't increase interoperation vs. letting it be.

[00:40:00.0000] <hsivonen>
fwiw, I think http://www.gmpg.org/xmdp/ might have served a political purpose some time, but I don't see it serving a technical purpose today

[00:40:01.0000] <sayrer>
but if someone showed that was all that was needed

[00:41:00.0000] <sayrer>
hsivonen, I think it was a political excuse to squat short strings

[00:41:01.0000] <sayrer>
(again, I don't care about squatting)

[00:41:02.0000] <hsivonen>
aside: regarding the cost of profile, when it was in HTML5, developing validation for it required a datatype that wasn't used anywhere else

[00:41:03.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: right

[00:42:00.0000] <hsivonen>
however, since *I* already have that code, profile validation is now sunk cost for me

[00:42:01.0000] <sayrer>
hmm, I'm not sure I would validate an attribute that doesn't do anything

[00:42:02.0000] <sayrer>
ah, excellent compromise!

[00:43:00.0000] <sayrer>
couldn't validators alert users to the fact that they don't validate the value of @profile because it doesn't do anything?

[00:43:01.0000] <annevk>
should be  the same data type as <a ping>

[00:43:02.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: I do that with RDF. It's even more code, but it's possible, sure.

[00:43:03.0000] <sayrer>
<a ping> accepts arbitrary numbers of URIs

[00:43:04.0000] <sayrer>
hahhaahaha

[00:43:05.0000] <sayrer>
yeah, that's going to work great!

[00:44:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: didn't ping accept relative URL?

[00:44:01.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: oops. the message doesn't say that RDF doesn't do anything.

[00:44:02.0000] <sayrer>
hsivonen, should I file a bug? ;)

[00:45:00.0000] <hsivonen>
sayrer: no ;-)

[00:46:00.0000] <sayrer>
hmm, it occurs to me that using @profile was quite dishonest of the microformats people

[00:46:01.0000] <sayrer>
they claimed namespaces were overengineering

[00:46:02.0000] <sayrer>
fair

[00:46:03.0000] <sayrer>
but then they used one that has no effects

[00:47:00.0000] <hsivonen>
is it engineering if it has no effects? :-)

[00:47:01.0000] <sayrer>
might have been better to just say "we're squatting, so what"

[00:47:02.0000] <hsivonen>
yes

[00:47:03.0000] <sayrer>
hsivonen, well, one of their central claims concerns unobservable metadata

[01:01:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: function showLoginForm(network  if (network.username && network.password) {

[01:01:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/status.js

[01:01:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
doesn't look right

[01:03:00.0000] <Hixie>
wip

[01:07:00.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie, btw there are two kinds of bofs at the ietf

[01:07:01.0000] <sayrer>
one is formal, on the agenda

[01:07:02.0000] <sayrer>
the other is not

[01:07:03.0000] <sayrer>
my understanding is that the html5 thing is the latter

[01:07:04.0000] <sayrer>
avoiding all the fees etc of the ietf

[01:08:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: while you're working on that, it would be nice if the edit popup said which 'id' it was bound to

[01:08:01.0000] <annevk>
good

[01:09:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah i'm going to the html5 one

[01:09:01.0000] <sayrer>
the IETF process is pretty much the process of avoiding process

[01:09:02.0000] <Hixie>
i was talking about the web socket thing at the bof itself

[01:09:03.0000] <Hixie>
s/bof/official meeting/

[01:09:04.0000] <sayrer>
oh, the HTTP meeting?

[01:09:05.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, oh, that's separate?

[01:09:06.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan_: k

[01:09:07.0000] <Hixie>
you've both now exceeded the bounds of my knowledge

[01:10:00.0000] <sayrer>
they want to discuss web socket behind the paywall, so to speak?

[01:10:01.0000] <Hixie>
apparently

[01:10:02.0000] <Hixie>
you were cc'ed on the e-mail mentioning this

[01:10:03.0000] <sayrer>
some of them

[01:10:04.0000] <annevk>
how high is this wall in dollars?

[01:10:05.0000] <sayrer>
whatever the meeting fee is

[01:11:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me didn't know the IETF was pay-to-play

[01:11:01.0000] <sayrer>
$700 US or so last time I went

[01:11:02.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: i'm talking about the e-mail that says "Ian, are you attending the IETF officially"

[01:11:03.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: it's double pay-to-play -- some company sponsors the event, and then attendees pay some exhorbitant fee

[01:11:04.0000] <Hixie>
i don't mind company sponsorship

[01:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
i do mind restricting participation to those who can pay

[01:12:01.0000] <sayrer>
there are also ghost fees

[01:12:02.0000] <sayrer>
like group rates in the hotel hosting

[01:12:03.0000] <sayrer>
it is insidious

[01:12:04.0000] <Hixie>
i understand the ietf has rising costs and so forth, and respect that they have to make choices and so forth

[01:12:05.0000] <sayrer>
it is a little better than the w3c, though

[01:13:00.0000] <annevk>
700 US? geez

[01:13:01.0000] <Hixie>
the w3c varis on a per-wg basis

[01:13:02.0000] <Hixie>
varies

[01:13:03.0000] <Hixie>
e.g. the htmlwg meeting is free (excluding personal costs)

[01:13:04.0000] <sayrer>
I was talking about membership

[01:14:00.0000] <sayrer>
something the IETF doesn't have

[01:14:01.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, the solution to the table summary problem is this:

[01:14:02.0000] <Lachy>
<p id="summary">Useful summary for everyone...</p><table aria-describedby="summary">...</table>

[01:15:00.0000] <annevk>
I hope not

[01:15:01.0000] <annevk>
/me hates writing IDREFs

[01:15:02.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie, at any rate, I would be willing to discuss Web Sockets. I sincerely think it is a great idea.

[01:16:00.0000] <sayrer>
I might not be the advocate you are looking for, though

[01:16:01.0000] <Lachy>
or <figure><legend>summary</legend> <table>...</table></figure>

[01:16:02.0000] <sayrer>
I will probably defend it no matter what

[01:16:03.0000] <sayrer>
so maybe it doesn't matter

[01:16:04.0000] <Lachy>
or just don't use any explicit association, and rely on their proximity and context

[01:17:00.0000] <annevk>
I like it too, but I'm not gonna get Opera to pay 700 US just to say that; that's insane

[01:18:00.0000] <sayrer>
I contribute to the HTTP specs too

[01:18:01.0000] <sayrer>
and the HTTP group doesn't meet at every meeting

[01:19:00.0000] <annevk>
it seems weird for it to be part of the HTTP WG though since it would be out of charter for them

[01:19:01.0000] <sayrer>
it's on port 80

[01:19:02.0000] <annevk>
and the IETF is apparently very peculiar about those

[01:19:03.0000] <annevk>
sayrer, it's on any port

[01:20:00.0000] <annevk>
sayrer, defaulting to 81 actually, iirc

[01:20:01.0000] <sayrer>
oh really

[01:20:02.0000] <sayrer>
isn't that the same as 80 for some legacy reason?

[01:20:03.0000] <sayrer>
I forget

[01:20:04.0000] <annevk>
no, you can do it over 80 if you want

[01:20:05.0000] <sayrer>
no, I mean 81 is a synonym for 80

[01:20:06.0000] <sayrer>
just proxy busting

[01:20:07.0000] <sayrer>
iirc

[01:21:00.0000] <annevk>
ah, that could be true

[01:21:01.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: for most groups membership is free if you can convince someone to invite you -- with the htmlwg, the main group whose creation i was involved in, anyone can join

[01:21:02.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: (wg membership at ietf is free too, as i understand it)

[01:21:03.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: (and meetings are optional once you've started the group)

[01:21:04.0000] <annevk>
neh, http://www.opera.com:81/ doesn't work

[01:21:05.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: if you're going, feel free to talk about it :-)

[01:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
81 isn't registered currently

[01:22:01.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie, maybe no one needs to go. I can already hear the objections.

[01:22:02.0000] <Hixie>
(though i'll register it if we go ahead with websocket)

[01:24:00.0000] <sayrer>
gosh, which port did I get recommended for big downloads

[01:24:01.0000] <annevk>
it seems even harder to convince the IETF of browser related issues than the W3C

[01:24:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
http://www.isolani.co.uk/blog/standards/TheIe8BlacklistMinefield - as expected ie7 mode in ie8 doesn't match ie7

[01:24:03.0000] <sayrer>
so busted caching proxies wouldn't break it

[01:24:04.0000] <sayrer>
I swear it was 81

[01:24:05.0000] <annevk>
mostly because the IETF is even more convinced we're doing it all wrong :)

[01:24:06.0000] <Hixie>
sayrer: might well have been

[01:25:00.0000] <sayrer>
if it was only that one site, no big deal

[01:25:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
oh wait ie8 has two "ie7" modes?

[01:25:02.0000] <sayrer>
I thought it was proxy lingua franca. bad assumption.

[01:26:00.0000] <sayrer>
annevk, it turns out the IETF people are receptive to the reality argument, tho

[01:34:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
/me doesn't follow isofarro's reasoning

[01:34:01.0000] <annevk>
sayrer, not last time I tried to argue over something with the HTTP WG

[01:34:02.0000] <annevk>
Content-Location

[01:35:00.0000] <sayrer>
hmm, doesn't sound reality based?

[01:35:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me considers using a <canvas> the height of the HTML5 document

[01:35:02.0000] <annevk>
or URLs

[01:35:03.0000] <annevk>
sayrer, check bugzilla

[01:35:04.0000] <sayrer>
which

[01:35:05.0000] <sayrer>
URLs they are gonna lose

[01:35:06.0000] <annevk>
the one from Mozilla

[01:35:07.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: are you trying to make it crash more browsers?

[01:35:08.0000] <sayrer>
annevk, which bug?

[01:36:00.0000] <annevk>
several, bz was involved

[01:36:01.0000] <annevk>
/me doesn't know numbers

[01:36:02.0000] <sayrer>
zcorpan_: interoperability is good

[01:36:03.0000] <sayrer>
annevk, bugs on Content-Location?

[01:36:04.0000] <sayrer>
with real websites?

[01:36:05.0000] <sayrer>
surprising

[01:36:06.0000] <annevk>
yeah, real websites broke because of Mozilla supporting it

[01:36:07.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan_: :-P

[01:36:08.0000] <sayrer>
delicious

[01:37:00.0000] <annevk>
for some time bz even created whitelists/blacklists

[01:37:01.0000] <annevk>
I believe at some point he concluded the spec didn't make sense either, but this has been a while

[01:38:00.0000] <annevk>
most of my interactions with the IETF fail for some reason or another

[01:38:01.0000] <roc>
zcorpan: hmm, an even more impressive train-wreck than I thought

[01:38:02.0000] <annevk>
could just be me of course, but elsewhere similar interactions work out much better

[01:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
my interactions with actual ietf people (primarily lisa) have been very productive and friendly

[01:40:00.0000] <sayrer>
my feeling is that the IETF desperately wants to be relevant

[01:40:01.0000] <roc>
zcorpan: but I don't think "Compatibility View" is different from "IE7 standards mode"

[01:40:02.0000] <sayrer>
and they don't have a coordination requirement like the W3C does

[01:41:00.0000] <sayrer>
but they do have fuzzy consensus processes

[01:41:01.0000] <sayrer>
that defend against process hacking, but also transparency

[01:42:00.0000] <sayrer>
also a chickenshit patent policy

[01:42:01.0000] <Hixie>
personally my experience hasn't been that the problem is with the processes themselves, since as far as i can tell nobody really follows them whatever the standards organisation

[01:42:02.0000] <sayrer>
I have seen you rail against W3C process violations

[01:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh i'm not saying that violating documented process is a good thing

[01:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
i'm just saying that i don't think that's the real problem

[01:43:02.0000] <sayrer>
IETF processes are written such that only loonies go off like that

[01:43:03.0000] <Hixie>
the main problem that i've found afflict people in all standards organisations is a reliance on expertise rather than logical argument and research

[01:43:04.0000] <Hixie>
and i've seen that everywhere

[01:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
ietf, ecma, w3c, iso, you name it

[01:44:01.0000] <sayrer>
I don't really like "logical argument", but I do like "research"

[01:44:02.0000] <Hixie>
yeah, research certainly is the more important of the two

[01:44:03.0000] <Hixie>
a lot of people in the spec world will just go with "well i think it should be foo" and that's the end of their argument

[01:44:04.0000] <sayrer>
rationalization can usually pass for logical argument 

[01:44:05.0000] <Hixie>
they never say "because..." something

[01:45:00.0000] <Hixie>
or they say "because i know best", or "because i've had 20 years' experience", or some other argument from authority

[01:45:01.0000] <sayrer>
I've seen counterexamples

[01:46:00.0000] <Hixie>
how do you mean?

[01:46:01.0000] <Hixie>
there are certainly many people doing it the right way

[01:46:02.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: I think Opera limits canvases to 32000x32000 pixels, and I'd guess the HTML5 spec is taller than that, and it would be nice if the spec still actually worked in most browsers

[01:46:03.0000] <Hixie>
with research, etc

[01:46:04.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: don't worry, i didn't seriously consider it

[01:46:05.0000] <Philip`>
and I think Firefox (2, maybe 3?) has a coordinate system that runs out at +/- 32K or something

[01:47:00.0000] <Philip`>
and of course you'd be incompatible with IE :-(

[01:47:01.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie, I mean that the value propositions for each party are obvious for people who've been around the block once

[01:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
value propositions?

[01:48:01.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie, I am thinking of the classic "firewalls will block it"

[01:49:00.0000] <sayrer>
turns out they probably will

[01:49:01.0000] <sayrer>
so people who want to standardize something have a burden of proof that kind of sucks

[01:50:00.0000] <sayrer>
but they might be prone to argue for evidence that the default is true

[01:51:00.0000] <hsivonen>
the wish to tweak Referer instead of minting a new header seems more principled than evidence-based, though. at least to a casual observer.

[01:51:01.0000] <sayrer>
yeah, I agree

[01:51:02.0000] <sayrer>
the belief that Origin won't be blocked is a different subject

[01:55:00.0000] <annevk>
whether or not it's blocked, it's near impossible to change right now

[01:55:01.0000] <sayrer>
Origin?

[01:55:02.0000] <annevk>
yeah

[01:56:00.0000] <sayrer>
why?

[01:56:01.0000] <annevk>
because in a few months it will be shipping in Safari 4, Firefox 3.1, and Internet Explorer 8

[01:56:02.0000] <jgraham>
FWIW it's still not clear to me that using <caption><details> or <figure><details> doesn't meet the WCAG-recommended use case for <table @summary>. However some control over the styling would be needed for authors to get it right.

[01:57:00.0000] <sayrer>
annevk, which other header will ship in all of those?

[01:57:01.0000] <sayrer>
starts with "Ref"

[01:57:02.0000] <Philip`>
/me guesses that if authors can't trivially work out how to style it 'right' (for whatever their definition of 'right' is, which might include being invisible) then they'll not bother including any summary text anywhere at all

[01:57:03.0000] <annevk>
servers doing anything with the style of cross-origin requests those implementations allow will use Origin

[01:58:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: Which would, roughly speaking, be the status quo :)

[01:58:01.0000] <sayrer>
annevk, I agree. What value does origin deliver to proxies.

[01:59:00.0000] <annevk>
is that question? (I don't know the answer.)

[02:00:00.0000] <sayrer>
annevk, yes a question. sorry for the poor punctuation.

[02:00:01.0000] <sayrer>
annevk, the answer is: nothing.

[02:00:02.0000] <sayrer>
so it goes in the same circular file

[02:00:03.0000] <sayrer>
since it does have a risk

[02:01:00.0000] <Philip`>
Does a lack of complaining users count as value?

[02:01:01.0000] <sayrer>
no

[02:01:02.0000] <sayrer>
you have obviously never sat behind an energetic proxy

[02:01:03.0000] <annevk>
I heard that most proxies are not updated often

[02:02:00.0000] <annevk>
but ok

[02:02:01.0000] <sayrer>
not such a good argument

[02:02:02.0000] <annevk>
it's not an argument

[02:02:03.0000] <sayrer>
not such a good mitigating factor?

[02:02:04.0000] <annevk>
I don't really care either way

[02:02:05.0000] <sayrer>
what matters is how many users sit behind a proxy updated for Origin

[02:03:00.0000] <sayrer>
or how many of a given site's users sit behind that proxy

[02:03:01.0000] <sayrer>
tough!

[02:03:02.0000] <annevk>
yeah

[02:04:00.0000] <Philip`>
sayrer: Do you mean a proxy updated to allow Origin, or a proxy updated to block Origin?

[02:05:00.0000] <sayrer>
proxies generally allow unknown headers in my experience, and abarth had some data that showed that too

[02:05:01.0000] <sayrer>
he misapplied that data to claim that they would continue to allow Origin

[02:05:02.0000] <sayrer>
but quibble quibble

[02:06:00.0000] <Philip`>
"In our experiment, the X-Requested-By header is correctly delivered to servers approximately 99.90–99.99% of the time"

[02:07:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me supposes it would also be nice to know whether X-* headers are handled any differently to non-prefixed unknown headers

[02:07:01.0000] <sayrer>
I tried arbitrary headers on 4 different US cell networks once

[02:07:02.0000] <sayrer>
they worked

[02:08:00.0000] <sayrer>
but at least two of them were using Squid

[02:08:01.0000] <sayrer>
and that was years ago nwo

[02:08:02.0000] <sayrer>
now

[02:09:00.0000] <roc>
I think Origin has a chance if we can deploy applications that use it faster than people can deploy proxies that strip it

[02:09:01.0000] <sayrer>
roc, Origin doesn't necessarily need to disclose the origin domain though

[02:09:02.0000] <sayrer>
unless you want to whitelist domains regardless of hierarchy

[02:10:00.0000] <sayrer>
it depends whether the goal is to allow cross site requests or prevent CSRF

[02:11:00.0000] <annevk>
my main use case is the former

[02:12:00.0000] <sayrer>
I've seen both prioritized

[02:12:01.0000] <annevk>
at some point it was hijacked to also do the latter; I'm ambivalent to that

[02:12:02.0000] <sayrer>
enough to question whether they need to be the same header

[02:12:03.0000] <sayrer>
actually

[02:12:04.0000] <annevk>
see public-webapps archive

[02:12:05.0000] <Philip`>
roc: That deployment approach would require applications that fail without the header (e.g. use it for allowing cross site requests), because if it merely prevents CSRF then nobody will notice when proxies start stripping it and so proxies would have no reason to stop stripping it

[02:13:00.0000] <sayrer>
I suppose it's ok to try it for both at first

[02:13:01.0000] <Philip`>
but the former case doesn't seem to be backward-compatible enough for anyone to rely on it for the next several years

[02:13:02.0000] <sayrer>
then when Origin fails, a sensible URL-proximity header can be minted

[02:13:03.0000] <sayrer>
the no stop energy approach

[02:14:00.0000] <roc>
Philip`: true about CSRF, false about CORS ... applications might have optional features that require CORS

[02:15:00.0000] <Philip`>
roc: Ah, I suppose it would work better if it was used as a bonus rather than as a core requirement

[02:16:00.0000] <sayrer>
"it doesn't work from my computer"

[02:16:01.0000] <sayrer>
"ok, I'll proxy the request"

[02:16:02.0000] <sayrer>
problem solved

[02:16:03.0000] <sayrer>
just saying

[02:17:00.0000] <sayrer>
I could be wrong, unless some website operator is willing to fall on their sword for CORS

[02:17:01.0000] <annevk>
i guess we'll see, right?

[02:17:02.0000] <sayrer>
er, I could be wrong if

[02:17:03.0000] <sayrer>
annevk, exactly. That's why the no stop energy appproach is best.

[02:20:00.0000] <annevk>
URL proximity does not really allow for the case where you only want to share with specific URLs

[02:20:01.0000] <annevk>
that are on completely separate domains

[02:24:00.0000] <annevk>
hmm, how does Referer work in face of redirects?

[02:28:00.0000] <annevk>
I don't think it does, but the HTTP spec seems very vague

[02:29:00.0000] <hsivonen>
hashing origin wouldn't solve the issue of a cross-site widget provider seeing what public sites a user reads but it would address the issue of leaking sensitive intranet host names like wiki.supersentiviteproduct.example.com

[02:32:00.0000] <Philip`>
But it'd be quite vulnerable to dictionary attacks, because domain names rarely have much entropy

[02:32:01.0000] <Hixie>
not only that, but typically you're looking for a yes/no answer against a small set of domains

[02:34:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I can see how a dictionary attack could tell who has been using a cross-site widget at www.playboy.com, but how would one use a dictionary attack to figure out iphonekiller.corp.google.com?

[02:35:00.0000] <Philip`>
By having a dictionary that contains terms like "iphone", "killer" and "corp", then trying all the combinations of terms and dots until you find one with the right hash

[02:35:01.0000] <hsivonen>
ok

[02:37:00.0000] <beowulf>
FWIW I think "Tables must not be used as layout aids" is too strong, tables layout data afterall

[02:37:01.0000] <sayrer>
Hixie/annevk, URl proximity does not allow an arbitrary whitelist of domains. it does allow stanford.facebook.com vs. www.facebook.com

[02:38:00.0000] <sayrer>
it seems like a reasonable trade-off for CSRF defense, and maybe useless for cross-origin request stuff

[02:38:01.0000] <annevk>
yeah, though if Origin works it won't be needed

[02:39:00.0000] <sayrer>
but that's why I say they don't need to be the same header, and also that I don't care if it is tried

[02:39:01.0000] <annevk>
i.e. if proxies are just scared of the path

[02:39:02.0000] <sayrer>
plausible, but I think they are scared of preventable breaches

[02:40:00.0000] <sayrer>
time will tell

[02:40:01.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders if Opera has stats on how many people enable its disable-referrer-sending feature

[02:41:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me wonders if intranet hosts are actually named iphonekiller or if they use kewl code names

[02:41:01.0000] <sayrer>
there are lots of interesting variations on the theme

[02:42:00.0000] <sayrer>
like scanning for hostname patterns that reveal a particular vulnerability might be present

[02:43:00.0000] <sayrer>
ooh, how about a wordpress vulnerability that made a cross-site request 

[02:43:01.0000] <sayrer>
delicious

[02:49:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://www.google.com/search?q=referer+%22%2A.corp.google.com

[02:51:00.0000] <sayrer>
I once found that a googler was mooching my wifi that way :)

[02:51:01.0000] <sayrer>
close quarters here in nyc

[02:53:00.0000] <sayrer>
I think the person was a sysadmin too. access to lots of juicy sounding host names

[02:53:01.0000] <sayrer>
:)

[03:05:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders if someone broke Gmail

[03:06:00.0000] <annevk>
http://twitter.com/mikeyk/statuses/1244442800

[03:47:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan_: ok, added the id

[03:47:01.0000] <Hixie>
to the little boxes

[03:51:00.0000] <Philip`>
Argh, now even the multipage version is incredibly slow to load in Opera

[03:51:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: HTML5 has changed <!doctype html></body><title>X</title> to parse in a way that's different from Gecko, Safari and Opera

[03:51:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: is that intentional?

[03:51:03.0000] <Hixie>
oh?

[03:51:04.0000] <Hixie>
oh

[03:51:05.0000] <Hixie>
hm

[03:51:06.0000] <Hixie>
i guess </body> shouldn't autoclose before head huh

[03:52:00.0000] <hsivonen>
seem so

[03:52:01.0000] <hsivonen>
+s

[03:52:02.0000] <Hixie>
do you know which diff that was?

[03:52:03.0000] <Hixie>
actually if you could file a bug that'd be great

[03:53:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: There still seems to be an off-by-one error in the month of the dates in the status annotations

[03:53:01.0000] <Hixie>
i don't want to be half-way through this edit when i leave here, which could happen any moment

[03:53:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: I'll try to figure that out and file a bug

[03:53:03.0000] <Philip`>
e.g. all zcorpan's annotations are marked as 2009-01-23

[03:53:04.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: thanks, that's awesome

[03:53:05.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: oops

[03:54:00.0000] <Hixie>
try now?

[03:54:01.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: Looks better now

[03:55:00.0000] <Hixie>
cool

[03:56:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: I quite dislike how it uses 100% CPU when I view any spec page in Opera

[03:56:01.0000] <Hixie>
if you can work out why it does it, i'm open to improving the code

[03:57:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: Hmm, I don't care enough to actually debug it

[03:57:01.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[03:58:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me adds http://www.whatwg.org/*/status.js into Opera's blocked content list

[04:27:00.0000] <hsivonen>
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!doctype%20html%3E%3Chtml%3E%3C%2Fhtml%3E%3C!--%20foo%20--%3E is interesting in WebKit

[04:36:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
hsivonen: why is it interesting?

[04:37:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan_: there's no head node

[04:38:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
hsivonen: there's never a head in webkit unless there's a <head> tag or some element that implies <head>

[04:39:00.0000] <hsivonen>
ah

[04:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
anyone have a good 16x16 icon that could represent JS libraries / shims / plugins?

[04:48:01.0000] <Hixie>
oooh

[04:48:02.0000] <Hixie>
wikipedia plugin icon

[04:49:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: the spec seems to freeze firefox upon scrolling, too

[04:51:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders if Hixie is getting confused about the differences between specification documents and Acid tests

[04:53:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Acid5 is the html5 spec

[04:53:01.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[04:53:02.0000] <jgraham>
Does the spec load at all now? I froze two browsers this morning tring to load it. This did not make me happy.

[04:54:00.0000] <jgraham>
Where by "load at all" I mean "load in a sensible amount of time i.e. < 60 seconds"

[04:54:01.0000] <Philip`>
I can use the multipage version in Firefox 2 with no problems

[04:54:02.0000] <jgraham>
The multipage version sucks on account of the multipageness

[04:54:03.0000] <Philip`>
Not sure about what other possibilities work

[04:55:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: On the other hand, at least it doesn't suffer from singlepageness

[04:56:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
jgraham: it works in safari

[04:57:00.0000] <jgraham>
zcorpan_: If you could only convince Apple to release Safari for Linux that would be a little more helpful :) 

[04:58:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me could use epiphany-webkit but that kind of sucks

[04:58:01.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Use Wine

[04:58:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
/me thinks Hixie does a "if (!safari) { while(true); }"

[04:58:03.0000] <Hixie>
i really can't work out what is causing firefox's slowness during scrolling

[04:58:04.0000] <Hixie>
unless it's the offsetTop calls

[04:58:05.0000] <Hixie>
is offsetTop expensive?

[04:59:00.0000] <Philip`>
Is it moving stuff and causing a re-layout?

[04:59:01.0000] <Hixie>
no, only position:fixed stuff is changing

[04:59:02.0000] <Hixie>
at least in theory

[04:59:03.0000] <Philip`>
In theory, the code works perfectly with no slowdown at all

[05:00:00.0000] <Philip`>
so I wouldn't put too much faith in theory

[05:04:00.0000] <Hixie>
looks like firefox's problem is offsetTop is ass-slow

[05:06:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me onders how many ways there are to tell the difference between 0 and -0 in ES3

[05:06:01.0000] <jgraham>
*wonders

[05:06:02.0000] <Philip`>
Infinite

[05:07:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: That doesn't seem like a vey helpful answer

[05:07:01.0000] <Philip`>
function is_minus_zero(n) { return n == 0 && 1/n < 0 && ...an infinite number of expressions that evaluate to true... }

[05:08:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Would it be more helpful to lie and give you any other answer?

[05:08:01.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: Yes.

[05:09:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
jgraham: 42

[05:09:01.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: There's about seven, then

[05:09:02.0000] <jgraham>
I could try to make the problem more well defined, if you like

[05:09:03.0000] <jgraham>
But I would probablu leave some hole 

[05:09:04.0000] <Philip`>
Since I have no idea what the problem is, that might be helpful

[05:10:00.0000] <jgraham>
What I actually mean is something like "howw many different functions are there such that f(0) != f(-0) in an observable way"

[05:10:01.0000] <jgraham>
So "division" would be one function

[05:11:00.0000] <Philip`>
I don't know of any ways that don't involve dividing a number by n and seeing if it's +Infinity or -Infinity

[05:11:01.0000] <jgraham>
Well atan2 does something different

[05:11:02.0000] <jgraham>
Though that is kindof division

[05:13:00.0000] <Philip`>
Ah, I forgot about atan2

[05:13:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: do you have an opinion on implementing frameset-ok as an insertion mode?

[05:17:00.0000] <Hixie>
how does it interact with other modes that currently say "act as if it was in the in-body mode"?

[05:17:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: they'd presumably go to the real in-body

[05:18:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: to get to any of the table or select stuff, you end up setting the flag to "not ok" first

[05:18:01.0000] <Hixie>
can any of those cases be triggered when frameset-ok is true, on elements that would make it false?

[05:19:00.0000] <Hixie>
if you are 100% sure that it is equivalent, then i'm fine with removing state variables

[05:19:01.0000] <Hixie>
but i wasn't sure when i wrote it

[05:20:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: as far as I can tell, any Process the token using the rules for the "in body" insertion mode. happens in cases where you must have set the flag to "not ok"

[05:21:00.0000] <Hixie>
and all of the cases that currently set the mode to in-body either always happen when frameset-ok or !framset-ok?

[05:21:01.0000] <Hixie>
i don't understand why gecko is so slow at this

[05:23:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: search for "Switch the insertion mode to "in body"." doesn't work for me

[05:24:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: but it seems to be that if you are switching towards "in body" and you aren't in one of the head states, frameset-ok must already be "not ok"

[05:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
i guess i'd have to make <style> and other things that switch to CDATA use the current state

[05:25:00.0000] <Hixie>
instead of assuming in-body... though that might already be the case

[05:25:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: why? they already have to set the original mode. and coming out of CDATA switches to the orginal mode

[05:26:00.0000] <Hixie>
do any of them explicitly set the original mode to in body instead of to whatever the current mode is?

[05:26:01.0000] <hsivonen>
/me tries to understand his own character foster parenting code

[05:26:02.0000] <Hixie>
i guess not, if they did they'd fail in table

[05:27:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: none of them set explicitly to "in body"

[05:27:01.0000] <Hixie>
k

[05:32:00.0000] <hsivonen>
hmm. I think my text foster parenting may look crazy because it has bogus dead code...

[05:32:01.0000] <hsivonen>
I wonder why

[05:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
man i hate c-like languages that don't have the full complement of assignment operators

[05:37:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: I think it would be reasonable to do what WebKit does and foster-parent whitespace that comes before non-whitespace in a run of text tokens

[05:39:00.0000] <annevk>
how would you do that spec-wise?

[05:39:01.0000] <Hixie>
ok if the people who were complaining of new perf issues could recheck their browsers and see if the perf issues are back to where they were before, that'd be good

[05:39:02.0000] <annevk>
i guess you'd not special case whitespace

[05:40:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: making the text coalescing buffer exist in the spec

[05:40:01.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: that would make the case of  <body> text...... [long pause in network traffic] ...more text </body>  not render the text received before the pause

[05:40:02.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk: it's black-box obvious that WebKit has one

[05:40:03.0000] <hsivonen>
I've got one, too, for the non-SAX cases

[05:40:04.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: correct

[05:41:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: but in practice, Web pages don't tend to have huge text nodes

[05:41:01.0000] <Hixie>
text/plain files do

[05:41:02.0000] <hsivonen>
instead there's plenty of intervening markup

[05:42:00.0000] <Hixie>
seems easy enough to me to just cut the buffer in half where necessary to match the current spec

[05:42:01.0000] <jgraham>
Doesn't it only matter inside tables?

[05:42:02.0000] <jgraham>
/me isn't paying much attention

[05:43:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: text/plain files don't need to use the HTML5 tree builder

[05:44:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: I never append to text nodes that are in the tree

[05:45:00.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: they're specced to right now

[05:45:01.0000] <Hixie>
anyway

[05:45:02.0000] <Hixie>
if you want me to look at this, file a bug

[05:45:03.0000] <Hixie>
bed time now

[05:45:04.0000] <Hixie>
nn

[05:45:05.0000] <hsivonen>
/me looks 

[05:45:06.0000] <hsivonen>
nn

[05:48:00.0000] <annevk>
nn Hixie!

[05:48:01.0000] <hsivonen>
sigh. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#read-text will indeed be a problem

[05:48:02.0000] <annevk>
/me is tired/jetlagged too

[05:49:00.0000] <hsivonen>
does interop require text/plain documents to have one huge text node instead of a lot of tiny ones?

[05:50:00.0000] <annevk>
it would be good if there was interop

[05:50:01.0000] <annevk>
and one large text node makes more sense...

[05:50:02.0000] <hsivonen>
I'm tempted to write a one-off custom tree builder for text/plain instead of hacking the HTML one do more tricks

[05:51:00.0000] <annevk>
but you'll have the same issue for HTML then if people insert large text nodes...

[05:52:00.0000] <hsivonen>
unless a top site does it, I think I can get away with incremental rendering of HTML not happening in the middle of a text node

[05:56:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I guess the easy way out of my current problem is to make every text node flush check for potential foster parenting...

[06:00:00.0000] <hsivonen>
now I need an effient way to manage table taint so that I don't need to search the stack per non-WS char

[06:01:00.0000] <hsivonen>
how annoying

[06:03:00.0000] <hsivonen>
well, the stack doesn't need to be searched very deep anyway...

[06:24:00.0000] <annevk>
rubys, maybe interoperation doesn't matter too much indeed; see also archives of this channel for a discussion regarding "harm"

[06:26:00.0000] <rubys>
search today?

[06:26:01.0000] <rubys>
I do believe that interop is important, vital even.

[06:30:00.0000] <annevk>
interop for content in terms of RFC 2119

[06:30:01.0000] <annevk>
(i.e. conformance requirements)

[06:30:02.0000] <annevk>
might be yesterday; bit confused with timezones :)

[06:30:03.0000] <rubys>
almost done reading...

[06:32:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, the new floating status box on the left is really annoying

[06:33:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, having the links to the section from within each status box is very useful, though

[06:34:00.0000] <rubys>
re: "the harm of the epic waste of time that including no-op syntax", that most emphatically is NOT what RFC 2119 is about.

[06:34:01.0000] <rubys>
re: "making <font> non-conforming protects users from the harm of media-dependent design", that may rise to the SHOULD NOT level at most.

[06:35:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: "Error: The list attribute of the input element must refer to a datalist element or to a select element." - the spec changed here a while ago, only datalist is allowed

[06:36:00.0000] <jgraham>
rubys: So do you agree with the position that, in the face of a specification with defined error handling, there should be no MUST-level document conformance critera?

[06:38:00.0000] <rubys>
/me thinking...

[06:38:01.0000] <Lachy>
jgraham, I don't, since that basically means authors can do whatever they want, which isn't really a useful goal to aim for

[06:39:00.0000] <rubys>
Lachy: it isn't as binary as that.  SHOULDs still can exist, and Validators can still complain, for example.

[06:41:00.0000] <Lachy>
rubys, so are you saying, you would reduce a MUST-level conformance requirement like this to a SHOULD? "The datetime  attribute, if present, must contain a valid date or time string that identifies the date or time being specified."

[06:41:01.0000] <rubys>
/me repeats: THINKING.  :-)

[06:42:00.0000] <Lachy>
so, that would mean authors SHOULD use a valid date, but they don't have to if they have a good reason??

[06:42:01.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders why everyone writing specs claims to use RFC 2119 terminology, even though they're usually not using the terms in the way defined there

[06:42:02.0000] <Philip`>
(rather than defining their own terms that are more applicable to their particular spec)

[06:42:03.0000] <Lachy>
Philip`, specs that don't use them as defined there should be fixd

[06:42:04.0000] <Lachy>
*fixed

[06:42:05.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: Examples?

[06:44:00.0000] <rubys>
Lachy: I'll consult with some of my IETF friends.  Datetime is a wonderful example, thanks!

[06:44:01.0000] <rubys>
The one I plan to start with (Paul Hoffman) is west coast US, so not likely to be up yet.

[06:46:00.0000] <annevk>
/me votes for RFC2119-5

[06:46:01.0000] <annevk>
weinig, congrats!

[06:46:02.0000] <Philip`>
As far as I can tell, RFC 2119 was intended to apply to implementors of protocols, hence talking about "vendors" and "interoperability" (which I presume is in the sense of two pieces of software communicating with each other) and "e.g. limiting retransmissions", and was never intended to apply to human authors of documents

[06:47:00.0000] <weinig>
annevk: ?

[06:47:01.0000] <annevk>
on shipping and all

[06:48:00.0000] <weinig>
ah, we shipped!

[06:48:01.0000] <annevk>
:p

[06:48:02.0000] <weinig>
I forgot :)

[06:48:03.0000] <annevk>
did cross-origin requests ship?

[06:48:04.0000] <jgraham>
(FWIW I tend to think that such a position would be putting theoretical purity ahead of the actual needs of authors. It is much easier to write a useful QA tool based on MUST level conditions than SHOULD and, although it is true that defined error handling may lead to interoperable browser behaviour, authors should not be expected to understand the details of the error handling and therefore should be warned whenver they encounter it)

[06:48:05.0000] <weinig>
annevk: yes

[06:48:06.0000] <annevk>
yay

[06:48:07.0000] <annevk>
/me changes the spec :p

[06:48:08.0000] <jgraham>
Also: what Philip` said

[06:48:09.0000] <weinig>
but it is just a beta

[06:48:10.0000] <Philip`>
Given a definition like "MAY: ... One vendor may choose to include the item because a particular marketplace requires it or because the vendor feels that it enhances the product while another vendor may omit the same item." it makes no sense to say "Authors MAY use some particular element or whatever"

[06:48:11.0000] <weinig>
so anything goes

[06:48:12.0000] <annevk>
i see

[06:48:13.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: i think opera emits several text nodes for text/plain

[06:48:14.0000] <Philip`>
because authors aren't vendors, and documents aren't products, and they're not offering it to a marketplace

[06:49:00.0000] <annevk>
well, bits in the spec have changed, but nothing that should preclude it from shipping (unless it's really out of date)

[06:49:01.0000] <annevk>
/me has been working on mostly editorial issues

[06:49:02.0000] <Philip`>
so any use of RFC 2119 for documents seems contrary to its intention, which results in the terms being effectively undefined and nobody quite agrees on what they mean

[06:50:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: in fact, i think we emit several text nodes in text/html, too

[06:50:01.0000] <rubys>
jgraham: it is all too easy to recast positions one disagrees with in terms of the "other side" pursuing "theoretical purity".  In general, when I see people do that, I see us as only being a step or two away from Godwin's law.

[06:51:00.0000] <rubys>
2119 has provided useful and pragmatic advice for quite some time, sullying it (like many have done with summary, for example) has pragmatic implications too

[06:53:00.0000] <jgraham>
rubys: I am emphatically not suggesting that RFC 2119 is not a useful document. I am suggesting that using it as the basis for arguing that we should have weaker document conformance constraints ignores the practical value of those constraints

[06:54:00.0000] <jgraham>
I am very intersted to hear your considered opinion once you have formulated it

[06:55:00.0000] <rubys>
A document with a BOM that is actually encoded as win-1252, or with a datetime of mañana are both clearly wrong, even if all software in the world handles such documents identially.  What we need to find is the most useful way to express that.  Others here might differ, but I think that a document that uses profile, summary, or property as originally intended and documented in other (prior or elsewhere) specs are considerably less "wrong" 

[07:28:00.0000] <zcorpan>
cufón seems to miss the concept of canvas fallback

[07:29:00.0000] <zcorpan>
<h3><span class="cufon cufon-canvas" style="width: 68px; height: 24px"><canvas width="86" height="25" style="top: -1px; left: -1px"></canvas><span class="cufon-alt">Select </span></span>...

[07:29:01.0000] <rubys>
this will likely end up being a blog entry.  The cases aren't quite so cut and dry.  

[07:30:00.0000] <annevk>
it depends on who has a say over the vocabulary

[07:31:00.0000] <rubys>
annevk: was that @me?

[07:31:01.0000] <annevk>
yeah

[07:31:02.0000] <annevk>
sorry

[07:32:00.0000] <yecril71>
There must be a compelling use case for date/time intervals out there, 

[07:32:01.0000] <yecril71>
otherwise database engines would not create a separate data type for them

[07:32:02.0000] <yecril71>
Although, of course, many small database engines ignore the issue

[07:33:00.0000] <yecril71>
Since HTML5 started supporting DATE and TIME, 

[07:33:01.0000] <yecril71>
it seems logical that it would ultimately support intervals as well,

[07:33:02.0000] <yecril71>
for database compatibility, if for no other purpose.

[07:34:00.0000] <yecril71>
That was @Lachy.

[07:34:01.0000] <yecril71>
There are different forms out there, and their layout is different.

[07:35:00.0000] <Lachy>
yecril71, HTML5 isn't solving the same problems as databases, so the use cases are not necessarily the same

[07:35:01.0000] <yecril71>
But database access is a strong application of HTML.

[07:36:00.0000] <Lachy>
so what problem would be solved by marking up time intervals in the HTML, even if it were output from a database?

[07:36:01.0000] <yecril71>
There are bureaucratic forms that require the applicant to fill a host of disconnected entries;

[07:37:00.0000] <yecril71>
The resulting HTML could be easily processed afterwards, without losing information.

[07:37:01.0000] <Lachy>
yecril71, just because someone might use HTML to publish some particular data type, doesn't necessarily mean there needs to be dedicated markup for it.

[07:37:02.0000] <yecril71>
Because the data types would be preserved.

[07:37:03.0000] <Lachy>
processed in what way? For what purpose?

[07:37:04.0000] <zcorpan>
why is the summary discussion cc-ed to every list i'm subscribed to (and a few others)?

[07:38:00.0000] <zcorpan>
and directly to me no less

[07:38:01.0000] <Lachy>
zcorpan, because the accessibility advocates feel the need to CC every list whenever an accessibility-related issue is discussed

[07:38:02.0000] <jgraham>
How many copies of each mail do you get?

[07:38:03.0000] <yecril71>
The report could be processed by a HTML grabber to enter information to a local database.

[07:38:04.0000] <zcorpan>
Lachy: why, to make their emails more accessible?

[07:38:05.0000] <Lachy>
I don't know.

[07:39:00.0000] <Lachy>
It's just an observation. I haven't yet formed a theory to explain it.

[07:39:01.0000] <zcorpan>
jgraham: 4, i think

[07:39:02.0000] <yecril71>
I am suggesting that time intervals are not "some particular data type";

[07:39:03.0000] <yecril71>
they are standardised and widely accepted and used.

[07:39:04.0000] <jgraham>
My hasiily constructed theory is that noone understands the tangle of accessibility related lists and so everyone just CCs them all in case one is relevant

[07:40:00.0000] <Philip`>
zcorpan: It's probably because Hixie selected all the recent summary mails and hit "reply all" and posted his response to sixteen addresses

[07:40:01.0000] <Lachy>
yecril71, vague use cases involving some unspecified "HTML grabber" to enter information into some local database with an undefined purpose doesn't make a useful use case or problem statement

[07:41:00.0000] <yecril71>
But it is likely that some such use case will eventually apppear.

[07:41:01.0000] <Philip`>
yecril71: Once it does appear, it can be addressed

[07:41:02.0000] <Lachy>
so if and when it does appear, then we can look at it

[07:41:03.0000] <Lachy>
and then we can address it.

[07:41:04.0000] <Lachy>
Trying to address a potential use case we haven't seen yet isn't likely to result in an adequate solution.

[07:42:00.0000] <yecril71>
Lachy!  Since you asked about it, I thought you were interested�

[07:42:01.0000] <yecril71>
I am not applying or promoting anything, just discussing things.

[07:42:02.0000] <Lachy>
I'm interested in hearing any real use cases there may be. I'm not interested in discussing hypothetical use cases that aren't based in reality

[07:43:00.0000] <othermaciej>
new Safari beta, in case you folks haven't seen it

[07:43:01.0000] <Lachy>
othermaciej, link?

[07:43:02.0000] <Lachy>
is that Safari 4?

[07:44:00.0000] <Philip`>
othermaciej: How awesome is it, on a scale of 1 to 10?

[07:44:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Philip`: over 9000!

[07:44:02.0000] <zcorpan>
wow that's pretty awesome

[07:44:03.0000] <othermaciej>
Lachy: http://www.apple.com/safari/whats-new.html

[07:45:00.0000] <annevk>
I hope the buffer overflow is restricted to awesomeness

[07:45:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Wait, SFX has been renamed to "Nitro" now?

[07:46:00.0000] <Lachy>
othermaciej, I have an old Safari 4 developer release installed. Do i need to remove that first?

[07:46:01.0000] <yecril71>
� and there are forms that contain the data for didactical problems, 

[07:46:02.0000] <othermaciej>
Lachy: it should be able to update over it just fine

[07:46:03.0000] <yecril71>
e.g. in mathematics or in grammar.

[07:47:00.0000] <yecril71>
I would use LI LABEL for bureaucratic forms, and P for educational problems.

[07:47:01.0000] <yecril71>
And, of course, there are numerous other possibilities, these are just the two I have come across.

[07:47:02.0000] <othermaciej>
gsnedders: our marketing people have a strange sense of humor apparantly

[07:48:00.0000] <Lachy>
thanks for not warning me I'd need to restart after it installed. That's annoying. I thought that wasn't supposed to be needed on OS X :-(

[07:48:01.0000] <Lachy>
/me restarts his macbook

[07:48:02.0000] <yecril71>
DT, DD INPUT is another possibility; however, I think LI LABEL renders better by default.

[07:49:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me is skeptical about Safari

[07:49:01.0000] <gsnedders>
othermaciej: Nitro is so boring compared with extreme fish

[07:49:02.0000] <yecril71>
Safari was all broken to me when it came around April.

[07:50:00.0000] <othermaciej>
gsnedders: are you calling this guy boring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPqFxtWgsvQ

[07:50:01.0000] <yecril71>
And none of the problems I have reported have been addressed.

[07:50:02.0000] <yecril71>
And the ADC Web site does not even work in IE :=(

[07:50:03.0000] <yecril71>
So I decided to trash the whole thing.

[07:51:00.0000] <othermaciej>
what problems did you report?

[07:52:00.0000] <yecril71>
For example, ?xml-stylesheet href="#".

[07:52:01.0000] <karlcow>
yecril71: "extremely fishy" would amuse journalists… though if the browser is not stable nitro will find its way in the columns too. There is always a way to make fun of something

[07:52:02.0000] <zcorpan>
othermaciej: "This video is not available in your country."

[07:53:00.0000] <othermaciej>
yecril71: is that supposed to make an XML file act as its own XSLT stylesheet? or by '#' do you mean a gragment identifier?

[07:54:00.0000] <yecril71>
self-referencing stylesheet, yes.

[07:54:01.0000] <yecril71>
The workaround is you have to use the actual name.

[07:54:02.0000] <yecril71>
(but it breaks when you rename the resource)

[07:55:00.0000] <yecril71>
Or ignoring external DTDs.

[07:55:01.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders what will come next after the V8 and Nitro engines

[07:55:02.0000] <karlcow>
I wonder what "Disable Site-specific Hacks" means

[07:56:00.0000] <gsnedders>
How's that a bug? There's no requirement to read external DTDs…

[07:56:01.0000] <karlcow>
Philip`: Nuclear

[07:56:02.0000] <othermaciej>
incidentally, if any of you get it installed, the little first-time intro thing is not a video, it's made with HTML5 and CSS Animation

[07:56:03.0000] <karlcow>
or maybe Nuked!

[07:56:04.0000] <yecril71>
It is a bug for me, because it is denying a useful feature.

[07:56:05.0000] <othermaciej>
(well, there's a video in it, using <video>)

[07:56:06.0000] <annevk>
yecril71, I doubt that's a bug per spec

[07:56:07.0000] <Philip`>
karlcow: Fallout 3 has taught me that nuclear-powered cars blow up in a mushroom cloud after three gunshots, so that's probably not a great name

[07:56:08.0000] <karlcow>
hehe

[07:57:00.0000] <yecril71>
That is a bug per usability, not per spec.

[07:57:01.0000] <annevk>
there's no such bugs for technical questions

[07:57:02.0000] <gsnedders>
yecril71: You then have the overhead of the time taken to fetch the DTD, which is a bug per usability

[07:57:03.0000] <yecril71>
I prefer correctness over efficiency.

[07:58:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Per spec it is correct, though

[07:58:01.0000] <yecril71>
But I can tell it to Safari because Safari knows better.

[07:58:02.0000] <yecril71>
s/can/cannot/

[07:58:03.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't think we have any principled reason to refuse to support that, we just haven't got around to fixing it yet

[07:58:04.0000] <othermaciej>
if there are sites using it in the wild we could raise the priority

[07:59:00.0000] <yecril71>
And I still cannot get rid if its traces in the registry after I removed it.

[07:59:01.0000] <othermaciej>
otherwise, we'll get to it eventually, and patches welcome

[07:59:02.0000] <karlcow>
othermaciej: is there an easteregg to replay the first time intro or the files somewhere on the hard drive?

[07:59:03.0000] <othermaciej>
http://www.apple.com/safari/welcome/

[08:00:00.0000] <Lachy>
othermaciej, I like what's been done with the Speed Dial feature in Safari, and cover flow in the history search is nice

[08:00:01.0000] <yecril71>
patches to Safari are possible only from people who have the source code.

[08:01:00.0000] <othermaciej>
yecril71: http://webkit.org/

[08:01:01.0000] <yecril71>
Preferences are UI, and UI is closed.

[08:01:02.0000] <othermaciej>
that's the engine used by Safari, it's all open source, and any code relating to XSLT will be in there

[08:01:03.0000] <othermaciej>
don't see what preferences have to do with it?

[08:02:00.0000] <yecril71>
"Read external DTDs" is a preference.

[08:02:01.0000] <othermaciej>
what does that have to do with ?xml-stylesheet href="#" ?

[08:03:00.0000] <yecril71>
We were discussing the second item.

[08:03:01.0000] <othermaciej>
oh

[08:03:02.0000] <yecril71>
href="#" can be patched in WebKit, yes.

[08:03:03.0000] <othermaciej>
well that's a feature we probably wouldn't add, preference or no

[08:05:00.0000] <yecril71>
That is, of course, up to you, but then Safari installer should not claim Safari is "the browser".

[08:05:01.0000] <yecril71>
Because it is too crippled and limited to be "the browser".

[08:06:00.0000] <karlcow>
hmmmm wonders what is /Applications/Safari.app/Contents/Resources/SnippetEditor

[08:06:01.0000] <annevk>
your sense of logic is not allowed in this channel yecril71, see topic ;)

[08:06:02.0000] <jgraham>
No Linux. Less bling than a rap star. Lame ;)

[08:06:03.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: Develop -> Show Snippet Editor

[08:06:04.0000] <zcorpan>
othermaciej: what's new with the "enhanced keyboard navigation"?

[08:07:00.0000] <Lachy>
othermaciej, http://images.apple.com/safari/welcome/media/audio.mp4 (the audio file used on the Safari welcome page) is served as text/plain :-(

[08:07:01.0000] <yecril71>
annevk!  Was that a plonk?

[08:08:00.0000] <othermaciej>
zcorpan: not sure

[08:08:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Lachy: I will try to let the right people know

[08:08:02.0000] <othermaciej>
Lachy: is the video served with the right MIME type?

[08:08:03.0000] <karlcow>
gsnedders: had missed that. thanks. still don't know what is it

[08:09:00.0000] <Lachy>
othermaciej, yeah, compass.mov is served as video/quicktime

[08:10:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me �s system is always loaded

[08:10:01.0000] <yecril71>
so I would rather that the player degraded by itself.

[08:12:00.0000] <yecril71>
Hixie!  If I isolated the problem that slows down IE rendering your spec as it is, 

[08:12:01.0000] <yecril71>
would you implement some workaround?

[08:14:00.0000] <Lachy>
othermaciej, I'm curious why the developers who made the welcome page decided to do it with separate <video> and <audio> elements, instead of just adding the audio track to the video file

[08:14:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Lachy: the video is shorter than the audio, and it turns out this way has better performance

[08:15:00.0000] <Lachy>
hmm, that's interesting.

[08:15:01.0000] <Lachy>
does it improve network performance by being able to download the tracks separately, or is it more performant to play them as 2 separate tracks?

[08:18:00.0000] <Lachy>
I think I prefer Chrome's tab design over Safari's because it's more practical. When I click on a tab in Safari while I'm still moving the mouse, it thinks I want to move the window. Whereas, Chrome makes a clearer distinction between the title bar and each tab and doesn't suffer from that problem

[08:19:00.0000] <karlcow>
"Show Snippet Editor: Opens a window you can use to quickly test small fragments of HTML, without requiring you to open an entire webpage."

[08:24:00.0000] <karlcow>
I'm pretty sure there must be com.apple.blabla to tell safari to restart with my previous sessions. Quit with two tabs, reopened with one window and no tabs. But there is a menu for it now

[08:25:00.0000] <Lachy>
karlcow, hasn't the "Reopen All Windows From Last Session" menu item been available in Safari for a long time?

[08:27:00.0000] <karlcow>
Lachy: not sure. I barely use safari since safari 2. Just launching it usually when new versions arrive and testing for specific purpose. 

[08:27:01.0000] <karlcow>
/me is checking % defaults read com.apple.safari

[08:30:00.0000] <karlcow>
made a test

[08:30:01.0000] <karlcow>
mwahaha

[08:30:02.0000] <karlcow>
    "com.apple.WebKit.searchField:com.twitter.search" =     (

[08:30:03.0000] <karlcow>
        sex

[08:30:04.0000] <karlcow>
    );

[08:33:00.0000] <karlcow>
ah good, when in private browsing mode, it doesn't save it to the com.apple.safari

[08:33:01.0000] <karlcow>
it just keeps the old values

[08:35:00.0000] <zcorpan>
othermaciej: hmm, popup windows in general don't seem to work for me (winxp); e.g. "about safari", "customize toolbar" and javascript alerts

[08:35:01.0000] <othermaciej>
zcorpan: strange

[08:36:00.0000] <zcorpan>
i like having the tabs in the title bar

[08:39:00.0000] <othermaciej>
zcorpan: did you update from the Safari 4 Developer Preview?

[08:39:01.0000] <zcorpan>
othermaciej: yes

[08:39:02.0000] <othermaciej>
zcorpan: I'm told what you are seeing is a known bug and should go away if you quit and relaunch Safari

[08:39:03.0000] <karlcow>
zcorpan: me too. but there is a little issue, with long titles when many tabs opened. At least when you over the title it displays the full title

[08:40:00.0000] <zcorpan>
othermaciej: it was a bit tricky to quit since trying to quit opened a popup that i couldn't see (and none of esc or enter made safari quit) :)

[08:41:00.0000] <karlcow>
the top sites is quite nice

[08:41:01.0000] <othermaciej>
zcorpan: doh!

[08:41:02.0000] <zcorpan>
works now though

[08:41:03.0000] <jgraham>
Does the coverflow thing actually work well? I tend to find that coverflow looks nicer in screenshots than it is to use in real life...

[08:42:00.0000] <karlcow>
jgraham: for the history?

[08:42:01.0000] <jgraham>
karlcow: Yeah

[08:42:02.0000] <jgraham>
I imagine *screenshots* for history are a good idea

[08:42:03.0000] <karlcow>
I would prefer an expose like thing

[08:43:00.0000] <karlcow>
cover flow is hard to use usually (for me), maybe other users might have a different experience

[08:47:00.0000] <karlcow>
ooops Top Sites does a get on previous uris which were a POST. 

[08:49:00.0000] <karlcow>
that seems to be a bug

[08:55:00.0000] <karlcow>
/me really likes the Web Inspector. nice job

[08:55:01.0000] <jgraham>
/me apologises to zcorpan

[08:58:00.0000] <annevk>
/me wonders why Number(x) is not enough if parseInt(x) is not good enough because there's no way to do input validation

[08:59:00.0000] <karlcow>
oohhh safari messing up with mime-type and content sniffing

[09:00:00.0000] <karlcow>
http://www.w3.org/ contains  w3c_main

[09:01:00.0000] <karlcow>
Web Inspector reports Resource interpreted as image but transferred with MIME type text/html. w3c_main

[09:01:01.0000] <jgraham>
annevk: No idea. Having two functions to do the same thing seems like a really bad idea though

[09:01:02.0000] <annevk>
I agree

[09:01:03.0000] <jgraham>
TSBO(APOO)OWTDI

[09:01:04.0000] <karlcow>
but w3c_main is sent with the right mime-type http://web-sniffer.net/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FIcons%2Fw3c_main&submit=Submit&http=1.1&gzip=yes&type=GET&uak=0

[09:02:00.0000] <annevk>
I'm a bit scared by es-discuss now and then

[09:02:01.0000] <annevk>
it seems quite easy for things to go the wrong way

[09:02:02.0000] <annevk>
though hopefully that's only because it's hard to follow what's going on

[09:03:00.0000] <annevk>
i.e., just like some people are complaining about the WHATWG / HTML WG :)

[09:03:01.0000] <jgraham>
annevk: I have been on the list for mere days and I already sense a predilection for theoretical purity over solutions that will actually be deployed

[09:04:00.0000] <jgraham>
Although I hope that is unfair

[09:04:01.0000] <annevk>
well, I've been on the list for over a year and have the same kind of sense

[09:04:02.0000] <annevk>
dunno

[09:05:00.0000] <annevk>
time to take a break

[09:07:00.0000] <karlcow>
/me reported the mime type bug

[09:31:00.0000] <jgraham>
http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/02/24/Cataloging-Venial-Sins

[09:46:00.0000] <jgraham>
karlcow: The example of spelling and grammar rules always suffers because spelling and grammar rules are extremely descriptivist

[09:47:00.0000] <jgraham>
Which could be your point but you should say so explicitly

[09:48:00.0000] <karlcow>
see html-wg

[09:48:01.0000] <jgraham>
(that maybe wasn't clear. I mean that the "rules" are mainly observations of what real people do rather than any kind of spec. And when people do try to make up a spec it usually contains nonsense like "don't split infinitives" which is based on how Latin worked...)

[09:54:00.0000] <karlcow>
you mean the current grammar rules are not really what really people speak, but what they should write.

[09:56:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders what the relevance of Gödel is to HTML document conformance

[09:57:00.0000] <karlcow>
/me wonders what is the relevance of challenging the document conformance, or what does it achieve in the end. mesmerized

[10:03:00.0000] <karlcow>
hmmm the issue with the mime type for safari is happening with only of this type: Content-Type: image/png; qs=0.7

[10:06:00.0000] <jgraham>
karlcow: I'm saying grammer "rules", as understood by modern linguists, are based on a description of what people actually say / write.

[10:08:00.0000] <karlcow>
and I'm talking about language taught at school

[10:10:00.0000] <karlcow>
and the way I write is definitely not the way I speak plus a big variety depending on the context, including respect forms, humour, etc.  My language is mostly super neutral here. 

[11:00:00.0000] <yecril71>
I still think METER is enough for marking up scalar quantities.

[11:11:00.0000] <rubys>
jgraham: re: "I am suggesting that using [RFC 2119] as the basis for arguing that we should have weaker document conformance constraints ignores the practical value of those constraints" +1

[11:13:00.0000] <tantek>
hsivonen, I just saw a few references to the profile attribute and XMDP - I may be able to help answer questions.

[11:14:00.0000] <Dashiva>
"Seems like a lot of trouble for just Links/Lynx users." <-- So much for universal access :)

[11:14:01.0000] <yecril71>
Tantek!  Do you know why OBJECT was proposed to hold dates?

[11:14:02.0000] <yecril71>
Seems like utter nonsense to me.

[11:15:00.0000] <tantek>
yecril71, because OBJECT is a semantic for embedding arbitrary data

[11:15:01.0000] <tantek>
many things seem like nonsense until explained

[11:15:02.0000] <gsnedders>
/me needs to wake up

[11:16:00.0000] <yecril71>
Arbitrary data, like white noise?

[11:16:01.0000] <tantek>
it is typically quite unscientific to conclude that something is "utter nonsense", negative proofs are extraordinarily difficult

[11:16:02.0000] <yecril71>
I said "seems".

[11:17:00.0000] <yecril71>
Object is semantics for external content, not for arbitrary data.

[11:17:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Fear the axiomatic proof (by contradiction)!

[11:19:00.0000] <yecril71>
And dates are not external content, although a calendar widget may be.

[11:19:01.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Is proof by contradiction one of your axioms?

[11:19:02.0000] <tantek>
fair enough, the seems qualifier improves it yes

[11:19:03.0000] <Philip`>
Clearly you should be using constructivist logic instead

[11:19:04.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: But that's boring.

[11:20:00.0000] <Dashiva>
/me has bad memories about deducing a->a from those stupid axioms

[11:21:00.0000] <tantek>
expressions of doubt or lack of understanding (questions) are more conducive to scientific discourse than assertions of nonsense. i.e. better to think/say "I don't understand why {assertion}" than "{assertion} seems like (or is) nonsense". the latter statement tends to be counter-productive, and in my experience, falsely implies a negative proof.

[11:22:00.0000] <yecril71>
I do not understand why OBJECT would make a good element for making up dates then.

[11:23:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me perceives the second version much less interesting

[11:23:01.0000] <tantek>
like many applications of semantic HTML, the framing is a bit different

[11:23:02.0000] <Dashiva>
No one said it's good, but rather that it's the default way

[11:23:03.0000] <tantek>
rather than asking for each element is this good/bad for marking up x 

[11:23:04.0000] <tantek>
the question is, what is the best choice in semantic HTML for marking up x

[11:24:00.0000] <yecril71>
A choice that is no good cannot be the best

[11:24:01.0000] <yecril71>
so it should be automatically out of consideration.

[11:24:02.0000] <tantek>
actually it can, because best is a relative assessment, rather than absolute "good"

[11:24:03.0000] <yecril71>
I do not understand why it was considered.

[11:25:00.0000] <yecril71>
So it was just the first shot?

[11:25:01.0000] <tantek>
object is not just semantics for external content, hence why object has fallback, all the way down to the innertext

[11:26:00.0000] <tantek>
that's a very important distinction between object and img/iframe/embed/applet etc.

[11:26:01.0000] <tantek>
thus the semantic for providing alternate types of data

[11:27:00.0000] <yecril71>
But in this case you want the alternate content displayed, not the object data.

[11:27:01.0000] <tantek>
precisely

[11:27:02.0000] <yecril71>
So it is rather an antiobject.

[11:27:03.0000] <tantek>
and that's not difficult to do, with implementation that conform to HTML4

[11:27:04.0000] <tantek>
implementationS

[11:28:00.0000] <tantek>
and that's why I first tried to use OBJECT as the most semantic choice in semantic HTML to represent datetimes, just over four years ago now. http://tantek.com/log/2005/01.html#d26t0100

[11:29:00.0000] <tantek>
unfortunately, bugs in Safari prevented this from being a practical solution.

[11:30:00.0000] <yecril71>
OBJECT displays object data by default.

[11:30:01.0000] <yecril71>
If fallback data should be normally displayed, it cannot be OBJECT.

[11:33:00.0000] <tantek>
ideally, for semantic datetimes, what should be displayed is what the viewer can best understand and manipulate, which may for example be a localized version of the datetime

[11:33:01.0000] <tantek>
but given lack of localized-preference-aware datetime display plugins, then yes, a suitable inline fallback should be provided consistent with the statistically likely locale of the reader

[11:34:00.0000] <yecril71>
Localized datetime in an article given in a foreign language?

[11:34:01.0000] <tantek>
or for example, in a train schedule shown in a foreign language

[11:34:02.0000] <yecril71>
If you understand the foreign language, it serves only as a disruption.

[11:35:00.0000] <tantek>
any experience international traveler knows that just being able to read the dates and times of schedules etc makes  them FAR more usable, even if you don't know the foreign language

[11:35:01.0000] <tantek>
so yes, even if in a foreign language

[11:35:02.0000] <tantek>
to put it another way, making *some* of the content viewable / understandable is often preferable to *none*

[11:36:00.0000] <tantek>
numbers, measures, dates, times fall into this category

[11:36:01.0000] <yecril71>
I can see it depends on the reading environment, because sometimes it can be worse.

[11:36:02.0000] <tantek>
in practice it is far more often better

[11:36:03.0000] <tantek>
as in the actual example I gave above

[11:36:04.0000] <yecril71>
Not in my practice.  I do not travel that much.

[11:36:05.0000] <tantek>
 of international travel and train schedules

[11:37:00.0000] <yecril71>
Besides, aren�t these things produced from a database rather then authored?

[11:37:01.0000] <tantek>
your expression of a lack of personal utility does not refute any positive assertions of utility made by others.

[11:38:00.0000] <yecril71>
I am not trying to refute your POV.

[11:38:01.0000] <tantek>
the point is, the practice increases utility for some or many

[11:38:02.0000] <tantek>
thus is an improvement

[11:38:03.0000] <yecril71>
And the database engine could produce content according to the viewer�s settings

[11:38:04.0000] <tantek>
it increases usability, heck accessibility for that matter

[11:38:05.0000] <yecril71>
without any help from the browser

[11:39:00.0000] <yecril71>
i.e. provide localization with no special markup

[11:39:01.0000] <yecril71>
necessary

[11:40:00.0000] <tantek>
your asserted solution has poorer scaling characteristics (requiring all publishers to code everything aware for all locales) than the alternative of simply providing the data semantically, and having the localize viewing smarts be in the user's browser

[11:40:01.0000] <yecril71>
Not all publishers, just travel agencies, railways and the like.

[11:41:00.0000] <tantek>
all publishers of date and time information

[11:41:01.0000] <yecril71>
They have to operate in a multilingual environment already.

[11:41:02.0000] <tantek>
event sites etc.

[11:41:03.0000] <yecril71>
What is the utility of attending an event when you do not know the language of communication?

[11:42:00.0000] <tantek>
maintaining 1 or 2 or a small number of variants is not the same as maintaining all variants for all locales, so the "already" argument is false.

[11:42:01.0000] <tantek>
you are assuming the language that the event is posted in is required to attend and take value in the event, which is a poor assumption. 

[11:43:00.0000] <tantek>
taking a train or bus is only one example of the problem of that assumption

[11:43:01.0000] <tantek>
concerts are another

[11:43:02.0000] <yecril71>
Oh, I thought you meant social events.

[11:43:03.0000] <tantek>
regardless, a very poor assumption to make, and certainly insufficient to reason from

[11:45:00.0000] <yecril71>
It is valid for social events where people talk to each other.

[11:45:01.0000] <tantek>
even then, you can't know what language(s) the attendees may know and thus speak to each other

[11:46:00.0000] <tantek>
you might be able to statistically model some likelihood of number of attendees knowing particular languages, given the demographics

[11:46:01.0000] <yecril71>
The attendees agree to use a common language

[11:46:02.0000] <yecril71>
or the organisation hires live translators.

[11:46:03.0000] <tantek>
or people talk however they want to talk to each other

[11:46:04.0000] <yecril71>
Otherwise it does not make sense.

[11:47:00.0000] <tantek>
see above examples. again, asserting "it does not make sense" itself is not a helpful path for discourse.

[11:48:00.0000] <yecril71>
An example of an event where people talk to each other without having to understand each other I have not seen above.

[11:49:00.0000] <yecril71>
I can only think about the tower of Babel event when I see this.

[11:49:01.0000] <tantek>
people are often able to communicate some understanding to each other without having to speak the same language

[11:49:02.0000] <tantek>
reasoning by negative examples like that will lead you to many errant conclusions because of implied assumptions

[11:50:00.0000] <yecril71>
I disagree about that "often" thing.

[11:50:01.0000] <yecril71>
Only in extreme circumstances, most of them unplanned.

[11:51:00.0000] <tantek>
lack of examples = you need to accept doubt and not knowing something rather than knowing or asserting that something is not.

[11:51:01.0000] <tantek>
and "only" is a strong assertion to make without evidence

[11:52:00.0000] <tantek>
get more experience with international travel, and you will get more data for understanding cross-language cross-locale etc. issues, problems and solutions

[11:52:01.0000] <yecril71>
I meant, only in extreme circumstances people often�

[11:52:02.0000] <tantek>
right, "only" is making assumptions of negative examples

[11:53:00.0000] <yecril71>
You mean, travelling abroad will make me attend social events based on nonverbal communication?

[11:54:00.0000] <tantek>
traveling abroad -> more data for understanding cross-language cross-locale etc. issues, problems and solutions -> more appreciation of partial understanding of content in foreign languages.

[11:54:01.0000] <tantek>
whether that content is on the web, or in communication at social events

[11:54:02.0000] <yecril71>
However, understanding of dates is included in partial understanding of content.

[11:55:00.0000] <yecril71>
It is basic knowledge.

[11:55:01.0000] <tantek>
until then, rather than asserting negatives, you should start with "I don't have the experience therefore I don't know", and ask those with experience.

[11:55:02.0000] <yecril71>
I do not have the experience, therefore I do not know 

[11:55:03.0000] <yecril71>
whether people who travel abroad much

[11:56:00.0000] <yecril71>
are often exposed to planned social events

[11:56:01.0000] <yecril71>
where the attendees do not understand each other

[11:56:02.0000] <yecril71>
and therefore have to resort to nonverbal communication.

[11:56:03.0000] <yecril71>
If you have the experience needed to enlighten me in this matter, please do.

[11:58:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me thinks the problems with Safari were a fortunate accident

[11:59:00.0000] <tantek>
see W3C i18n presentations by Richard Ishida regarding how dates and times are not basic knowledge and actually quite hard to understand well / accurately across languages and locales.

[12:00:00.0000] <yecril71>
Gwneud y we fyd-eang yn wirioneddol?

[12:01:00.0000] <tantek>
again your example above is trying to reason by negative, in this case, a strawman you constructed ("planned social events" - "do not understand" - "nonverbal communication"), which is also a logical fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[12:01:01.0000] <tantek>
Hixie, do you have a Logic101 primer for the #whatwg channel, or are discussions like this (with flawed reasoning by negative examples, strawman etc) a common thing?

[12:01:02.0000] <yecril71>
That was actually a question, not a reasoning.

[12:03:00.0000] <yecril71>
Do you want me to look at the wirioneddol thing?

[12:04:00.0000] <tantek>
see above: presenting cases/questions with an absence of utility does not refute cases presented that demonstrate utility.

[12:05:00.0000] <yecril71>
Like that with concerts?

[12:10:00.0000] <tantek>
it appears you may have referring to a resource on the web with the previous question. URLs usually work better to reference things on the web (rather than the titles of  documents).

[12:12:00.0000] <tantek>
this presentation is a good start: http://www.w3.org/2008/Talks/05-atmedia-ishida/slides.pdf

[12:12:01.0000] <yecril71>
/me is looking at that

[12:13:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me found wirioneddol and thought it may be the refernced document but it was not

[12:14:00.0000] <yecril71>
But it has 113 pages, and I want information about dates�

[12:15:00.0000] <yecril71>
and no TOC

[12:15:01.0000] <tantek>
this one is good too: http://www.w3.org/2007/Talks/0706-atmedia/

[12:16:00.0000] <tantek>
having expressed lack of experience about language/locale issues, you should read through both of those presentation to gain more understanding

[12:17:00.0000] <yecril71>
There is plenty of things I should do but I do not have infinite resources :-(

[12:17:01.0000] <yecril71>
/me needs a shortcut

[12:17:02.0000] <tantek>
here is a specific slide on dates: http://www.w3.org/2007/Talks/0706-atmedia/slides/Slide0460.html

[12:19:00.0000] <yecril71>
If I know that the page is in English, I also know that 03 is March.

[12:19:01.0000] <tantek>
for a better experience, listen to the audio from the previous link as well: http://www.w3.org/blog/International/2007/06/11/new_talk_slides_media_2007

[12:19:02.0000] <yecril71>
I do not know from what culture 2.3.01 may be.

[12:20:00.0000] <tantek>
you don't actually know that, and here are several examples of ambiguous dates, many from English-speaking countries: http://flickr.com/photos/tags/needsisodate

[12:20:01.0000] <tantek>
English UK dates are written different from English US dates

[12:20:02.0000] <tantek>
so when is 4/5 ? in April or May?

[12:21:00.0000] <yecril71>
English UK is Mar 2, 2001

[12:21:01.0000] <yecril71>
or March.

[12:21:02.0000] <tantek>
hence ambiguous, hence not basic knowledge

[12:22:00.0000] <yecril71>
I can easily tell 03/02/01 (US) from March 2, 2001 (UK)

[12:23:00.0000] <yecril71>
No ambiguity here

[12:23:01.0000] <tantek>
03/02/01 is not necessarily US

[12:23:02.0000] <tantek>
see the Flickr link

[12:23:03.0000] <tantek>
some of those dates are printed in  that format in the UK

[12:23:04.0000] <tantek>
in speaking with Richard Ishida, he agreed that using a date like "2001-03-02" is actually the most readable to the most people, worldwide.

[12:23:05.0000] <yecril71>
IMG_2410 is not from the Web, there is no context

[12:24:00.0000] <tantek>
it appears you may have referring to a resource on the web with the previous question. URLs usually work better to reference things on the web (rather than the titles of  documents).

[12:24:01.0000] <yecril71>
YYYY-MM-DD is ANSI date, used in France.

[12:24:02.0000] <yecril71>
http://flickr.com/photos/tantek/3241965515/

[12:24:03.0000] <tantek>
YYYY-MM-DD is ISO8601. which ANSI standard is it?

[12:25:00.0000] <yecril71>
ANSI SQL

[12:25:01.0000] <karlcow>
http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-datetime

[12:26:00.0000] <tantek>
"/" separators are used in the UK as well as the US. e.g. http://flickr.com/photos/tantek/1386536315/

[12:26:01.0000] <karlcow>
http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/iso-date

[12:26:02.0000] <tantek>
or ".": http://flickr.com/photos/tantek/1341747652/

[12:27:00.0000] <karlcow>
http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-date-format

[12:27:01.0000] <tantek>
karlcow - thanks for the URLs.

[12:28:00.0000] <tantek>
from http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/iso-date : "Albeit not perfect, ISO date format is, however, the best choice for a date representation that is universally (and accurately) understandable."

[12:28:01.0000] <yecril71>
http://flickr.com/photos/tantek/1341747652/ is not from the Web either

[12:29:00.0000] <yecril71>
My country used D.MM.RRRR, then RRRR.MM.DD, I suppose adoption of ISO is in progress

[12:30:00.0000] <tantek>
right, that's what people will end up using, because it makes the most sense to the most people (= most accessible)

[12:30:01.0000] <yecril71>
<http://flickr.com/photos/tantek/1386536315/> is not from the Web

[12:30:02.0000] <tantek>
the point of those photos is to demonstrate differences in written date formats in different locales

[12:31:00.0000] <tantek>
ISO8601: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601

[12:32:00.0000] <yecril71>
Demonstrate that different date formats are used in a single locale

[12:32:01.0000] <yecril71>
on pages containing invitations to events

[12:32:02.0000] <yecril71>
causing all sorts of misunderstandings.

[12:32:03.0000] <yecril71>
Consumer product validity tags are out of scope for this discussion.

[12:33:00.0000] <tantek>
they're not, as people travel across locales IRL, as they do when browsing the web

[12:34:00.0000] <yecril71>
But you cannot use OBJECTs on validity tags, so using OBJECTs in those cases would not help.

[12:34:01.0000] <tantek>
what are "validity tags"?

[12:34:02.0000] <yecril71>
Valid through

[12:34:03.0000] <karlcow>
/me fears the unproductive discussion :)

[12:35:00.0000] <tantek>
/me tends to agree with karlcow, given the frequency of logic flaws.

[12:38:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me does not admit committing a logic flaw

[12:38:01.0000] <tantek>
by the way, for folks interested on how to "best" markup dates and times on the web, we (the #microformats community) made good progress in microformats with additions to the value-excerption pattern to workaround the cases where using abbr may present accessibility or presentation problems. for more on this topic (which may be offtopic for #whatwg - I'm not sure), feel free to /join #microformats

[12:39:00.0000] <yecril71>
And?

[12:39:01.0000] <tantek>
which is also a reasonable place to ask about XMDP (which was the subject I brought up in the first place).

[12:42:00.0000] <tantek>
yecril71, see above where I noted reasoning by negative (examples), strawman examples etc. every time I pointed those out, they were in response to logical flaws in your statements / arguments. acknowledging your logic flaws will help with recognizing them in the future, reduce the frequency, and result in higher quality / more productive discussions.

[12:53:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me was not reasoning by negative examples

[12:53:01.0000] <yecril71>
/me was merely pointing out the cases where the strategy is not really needed

[12:54:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me thinks other cases exist but they are far less common

[13:17:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me found his objection raised by Sarven Capadisli at <http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern>

[13:18:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me is glad he is not the first one

[13:20:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me tries to get his head around working with RDF

[13:23:00.0000] <karlcow>
gsnedders: what are you trying to do?

[13:23:01.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: Using http://www.w3.org/2002/01/tr-automation/tr.rdf find the latest version of each URI and find the title, authors, and date of that document

[13:24:00.0000] <yecril71>
Owls are experts at getting their head around.

[14:12:00.0000] <karlcow>
http://280atlas.com/

[14:12:01.0000] <karlcow>
gsnedders: do you need examples of scripts?

[14:57:00.0000] <gsnedders>
oh noes! othermaciej following me on Twitter!

[14:57:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me hides

[14:58:00.0000] <othermaciej>
gsnedders: you followed me first dude

[14:58:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Yeah, sure.

[14:58:02.0000] <gsnedders>
I never said anything to the contrary :P

[14:59:00.0000] <karlcow>
/me still wonders if gsnedders needs scripts examples

[15:00:00.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: It would be helpful.

[15:05:00.0000] <karlcow>
gsnedders: SPARQL package in python to do query on an RDF graph http://www.ivan-herman.net/Misc/PythonStuff/SPARQL/Doc-SPARQL/

[15:05:01.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: Yeah, I saw that. Only issue: I don't know SPARQL at all

[15:08:00.0000] <karlcow>
SPARQL looks like a lot SQL

[15:09:00.0000] <karlcow>
and if you don't want to go through the insanity of parsing RDF with XSLT (aka headaches guaranteed) you should use SPARQL

[15:09:01.0000] <karlcow>
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/j-sparql/

[15:09:02.0000] <karlcow>
in this article there are very basic examples

[15:09:03.0000] <karlcow>
the first example is

[15:09:04.0000] <karlcow>
PREFIX foaf: <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/>

[15:09:05.0000] <karlcow>
SELECT ?url

[15:09:06.0000] <karlcow>
FROM  <bloggers.rdf>

[15:09:07.0000] <karlcow>
WHERE  {

[15:09:08.0000] <karlcow>
    ?contributor foaf:name "Jon Foobar" .

[15:09:09.0000] <karlcow>
    ?contributor foaf:weblog ?url .

[15:10:00.0000] <karlcow>
}

[15:11:00.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: How do I deal with not knowing what element is the child of root (e.g., it might be WD, it might be REC, etc.)?

[15:13:00.0000] <tantek>
/me wonders rhetorically if there might be a better IRC channel for RDF discussions.

[15:13:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Peh. Being on-topic would be logic, and we're meant to leave that at the door when coming in here.

[15:13:02.0000] <gsnedders>
s/logic/logical/

[15:17:00.0000] <tantek>
being logical can often improve the economic use of your resources such as time, assuming that is part of your self-interest.

[15:19:00.0000] <danbri>
I guess SQL is in scope nowadays?

[15:20:00.0000] <karlcow>
gsnedders: I just created one for you

[15:20:01.0000] <karlcow>
so you can understand

[15:20:02.0000] <karlcow>
Use the SPARQL endpoint http://sparql.org/sparql.html with the form

[15:20:03.0000] <karlcow>
and type

[15:20:04.0000] <karlcow>
PREFIX dc: <http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/>

[15:20:05.0000] <karlcow>
PREFIX rec: <http://www.w3.org/2001/02pd/rec54#>

[15:20:06.0000] <karlcow>
SELECT ?title

[15:20:07.0000] <karlcow>
FROM  <http://www.w3.org/2002/01/tr-automation/tr.rdf>

[15:20:08.0000] <karlcow>
WHERE  {

[15:20:09.0000] <karlcow>
        ?spec a rec:REC .

[15:20:10.0000] <karlcow>
        ?spec dc:title ?title .

[15:21:00.0000] <karlcow>
}

[15:21:01.0000] <danbri>
i've been nudging the http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/rdb2rdf/ folk (working on sql / sparql mappings) to look at html5 sql apis

[15:21:02.0000] <karlcow>
here I'm asking to display the title of all documents which are a Rec

[15:21:03.0000] <danbri>
eg. in last week's semweb cg call

[15:22:00.0000] <karlcow>
tantek: you can ignore the lines too ;) I very rarely read the logs of this channel for example, and that's fine.

[15:23:00.0000] <tantek>
karlcow, focus / and on-topic scales better in terms of communication for more people, rather than telling everyone to ignore lines and speak whatever in whatever context.

[15:24:00.0000] <danbri>
tantek, are you new here? #whatwg isn't famed for ontopicity...

[15:25:00.0000] <tantek>
 danbri, I lurk often, and most of the time see quite on topic discussions between Hixie, hsivonen, et al

[15:27:00.0000] <karlcow>
tantek giving a meta class related to good use of channel (not respecting the channel topic then) aka respecting the topic (here html5). Conclusion: eat your own dog food. :)))

[15:28:00.0000] <karlcow>
gsnedders: I realize that I have forgotten to give you the link to the description of the vocabulary so you can play with other items of the graphs. http://www.w3.org/2001/02pd/rec54#

[15:28:01.0000] <tantek>
karlcow, html5 being ontopic I presumed that semantic use of HTML4 was also ontopic - pardon me if that was an error.

[15:29:00.0000] <tantek>
for microformats specific discussions I do redirect folks to #microformats

[15:29:01.0000] <karlcow>
/me is just talking about the meta discussion we are just having now about IRC usage ;)

[15:29:02.0000] <Hixie>
there's no topic in this channel

[15:29:03.0000] <Hixie>
people can talk abotu whatever they want to

[15:29:04.0000] <Hixie>
it's just a place for people who work on html5 to wind down

[15:30:00.0000] <karlcow>
/me doesn't really care. gsnedders is a nice chap. He asked for help, I'm giving a bit of help. And it might benefit others. end of the metadiscussion on my side.

[15:30:01.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: I'll have a look at all that tomorrow

[15:30:02.0000] <Hixie>
helping people is always welcome on this channel :-)

[15:30:03.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: I have to go sleep now

[15:30:04.0000] <karlcow>
gsnedders: have a good night

[15:31:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Besides, I could always go back to discussing it with MikeSmith in #html-wg where it almost certainly is off-topic :P

[15:31:01.0000] <karlcow>
hehe

[15:32:00.0000] <tantek>
Hixie, apologies, for some reason I gotten the impression that the purpose/focus of this channel was HTML5 ;)

[15:32:01.0000] <Hixie>
nah the purpose is just so i have a rapturous audience to listen to my rants

[15:32:02.0000] <Hixie>
/me ducks

[15:32:03.0000] <gsnedders>
Hixie: Re: your email, that means I can please both you and Anne at once. Wow. :)

[15:33:00.0000] <Hixie>
gsnedders: such a rare opportunity!

[15:37:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders how off-topic he could attempt to drag the channel before it just got very irritating to everyone

[15:37:01.0000] <Philip`>
So, is anyone else waiting for the TF2 scout update?

[15:37:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: Oh come on. Try harder.

[15:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: no but I _am_ waiting for Half-Life 2 Episode 3

[15:39:00.0000] <Philip`>
The double-Payload map looks quite interesting

[15:40:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: That's not quite the same type of waiting, since Ep3 is a lot of months away and the TF2 update is hours away :-)

[15:40:01.0000] <Hixie>
:-)

[15:41:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Anyone else got GTA IV: TLAD yet?

[15:42:00.0000] <Philip`>
(They seem to have totally failed at the idea that episodic content is meant to be faster to produce than a full game)

[15:42:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me on the whole thought it was a bit short only taking seven hours to get through

[15:42:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Though, to be fair, that isn't actually that much shorter than GTA IV itself (11 hours, IIRC)

[15:43:00.0000] <karlcow>
/me is kicking gsnedders to bed

[15:43:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Oh, yeah. I did mean to do that

[15:43:02.0000] <gsnedders>
/me thanks karlcow for the reminder, and goes

[15:43:03.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: You should play TF2! I must have spent well over three hundred hours on it, which is pretty good value for money

[15:43:04.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: indeed

[15:43:05.0000] <Hixie>
bbiab

[15:44:00.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: Molly sends a hug and kiss, FWIW

[15:47:00.0000] <karlcow>
yeeeha

[15:48:00.0000] <karlcow>
/me wonders if gsnedders goes to bed with Molly. hmmmm no no don't answer. TMI


2009-02-25
[16:14:00.0000] <ehird>
Am I to assume you guys have seen the source of http://www.apple.com/safari/?

[16:14:01.0000] <ehird>
(Hint: it's html5. It uses header, nav, section, all those things, too, not just the doctype.)

[16:16:00.0000] <Philip`>
It's not even valid, though :-(

[16:17:00.0000] <ehird>
Philip`: The header looks controled by the site-wide CMS.

[16:17:01.0000] <roc>
anyone here got IE8 handy to try a testcase for me?

[16:17:02.0000] <ehird>
Even so, wow. Oh, wait, I forgot, we have to wait until 2012. Nevermind, HTML5 isn't ready yet.

[16:19:00.0000] <Philip`>
roc: I have a possibly slightly old ("RC1" apparently) copy of IE8

[16:19:01.0000] <roc>
how about for me *and* dhyatt?

[16:19:02.0000] <roc>
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/18

[16:19:03.0000] <roc>
hmm, that may need to be massaged to trigger IE8 standards mode

[16:19:04.0000] <roc>
give it a standards-mode doctype

[16:20:00.0000] <roc>
then, when you scroll down, at the bottom there should be a yellow background, with "hello world" in black drawing over it, and with "This text overlaps" on top of that.

[16:21:00.0000] <roc>
the question is ... is the scrollbar under or over the yellow background?

[16:21:01.0000] <roc>
thx

[16:21:02.0000] <Philip`>
roc: The scrollbar is hidden behind the yellow background

[16:22:00.0000] <roc>
ok

[16:22:01.0000] <roc>
the "hello world" is visible over the yellow background?

[16:22:02.0000] <Philip`>
Yes

[16:22:03.0000] <Philip`>
overlapping the word "This"

[16:22:04.0000] <roc>
great thanks

[16:23:00.0000] <jwalden>
/me should install IE8 on his Windows box

[16:23:01.0000] <jwalden>
after I finish debugging this patch :-)

[16:23:02.0000] <Philip`>
Compatibility View has the scrollbar and the "Hello world" text all behind the yellow background

[16:23:03.0000] <Philip`>
(as does quirks mode)

[16:31:00.0000] <roc>
yeah thanks

[18:08:00.0000] <Hixie>
a <section> in a <header>? sheesh

[18:09:00.0000] <Hixie>
html5 being abused already :-(

[18:09:01.0000] <Hixie>
oh lord, an <h3> in a <footer>, too

[18:17:00.0000] <annevk>
Hixie, who is wm?

[18:17:01.0000] <Hixie>
wellington

[18:17:02.0000] <Hixie>
he pointed out the problem in #content on irc.mozilla.org

[18:17:03.0000] <annevk>
ta

[18:19:00.0000] <jcranmer>
you can lead a web developer to semantic paradise, but you can't make him write it :-)

[18:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
i love that when i edit the websocket part of the spec, the ID gets automatically updated and submitted

[18:43:00.0000] <annevk>
yum, Google Search Appliance reminds me of cheese

[19:35:00.0000] <takkaria>
crikey, this accessibility hoo-haa over canvas is saddening

[19:36:00.0000] <takkaria>
it seems to follow from the idea that all content should be equivalent across viewing media

[19:37:00.0000] <takkaria>
s/viewing//; I guess

[19:38:00.0000] <takkaria>
but the kinds of things that canvas is there for seem to be basically stuff that can't be equivalent across media

[19:44:00.0000] <roc>
I wonder why accessibility people haven't shut down the entire games industry

[20:09:00.0000] <annevk>
http://280atlas.com/ is pretty cool

[20:11:00.0000] <heycam>
annevk, you have "© 2003-2008" at the bottom of annevankesteren.nl.  i guess it should be 2009?

[20:11:01.0000] <heycam>
i couldn't play the video properly on 280atlas.com, so i have no idea what the site does :/

[20:12:00.0000] <annevk>
it's a WYSIWYG editor for applications

[20:12:01.0000] <annevk>
Web applications

[20:13:00.0000] <heycam>
so like the cocoa Interface Builder plus a way to add script or something?

[20:13:01.0000] <karlcow>
annevk: indeed super impressive. The world of visual basic finally on the Web, with all the bad/good things of it ;)

[20:13:02.0000] <karlcow>
heycam: yes

[20:13:03.0000] <heycam>
sounds nifty

[20:16:00.0000] <heycam>
annevk, in case you missed it just before your irc closed: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090225#l-184

[20:16:01.0000] <annevk>
ah

[20:21:00.0000] <annevk>
ta, fixed

[20:37:00.0000] <annevk>
heycam, btw, for SVG you could just say that for all SVG elements transform-origin has a different default value, no?

[20:38:00.0000] <annevk>
heycam, just like HTML elements have some default style

[20:38:01.0000] <heycam>
annevk, yes that could be said

[20:38:02.0000] <heycam>
might be confusing though, having some elements (HTML ones) using the centre as the origin, while SVG elements use the viewport origin

[20:39:00.0000] <annevk>
with "viewport origin" you mean the x,y of the outermost SVG <svg> element?

[20:39:01.0000] <heycam>
i think we will likely make transform a property in SVG, so that we can reuse/unify CSS transforms

[20:39:02.0000] <heycam>
annevk, not the outermost, but the closest ancestor

[20:39:03.0000] <annevk>
k

[20:40:00.0000] <annevk>
ideally transforms are the same in CSS/SVG/<canvas>

[20:40:01.0000] <heycam>
yep

[20:40:02.0000] <annevk>
with CSS having transforms that affect layout in addition, I suppose

[20:41:00.0000] <heycam>
svg definitely needs to have viewport-origin or some way of easily rotating objects about their centre points

[23:44:00.0000] <annevk>
http://twitter.com/Stormchild/statuses/1248400981

[00:28:00.0000] <Hixie>
shockingly, despite a browser having come out today, my site has stayed up

[01:30:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, can you provide a way to turn off that new floating status box in the spec? I'm finding it really irritating

[01:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
oh?

[01:30:02.0000] <Hixie>
why is it irritating?

[01:31:00.0000] <Lachy>
because it doesn't scroll along with everything else and is distracting

[01:32:00.0000] <Hixie>
is there some way i can make it less distracting while still making the information available?

[01:33:00.0000] <Lachy>
well, one thing you could do is either make them narrower, or increase the left margin on the green element summary boxes, so they don't overlap the edge of them.

[01:33:01.0000] <annevk>
maybe only show it after scrolling has finished?

[01:35:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: "Error: Required attributes missing on element script." for <script type="text/javascript" charset="utf-8"> ... </script>

[01:35:01.0000] <Philip`>
zcorpan: src is missing

[01:36:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, maybe make them semi-transparent, and then opaque when they're hovered

[01:36:01.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: it would be more helpful if it said that charset is not allowed if there's no src

[01:36:02.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: thanks

[01:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh god, my cat turned on voiceover

[01:37:01.0000] <Hixie>
how the heck do you turn it off

[01:37:02.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, in System Preferencs is the only way I know of

[01:37:03.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: ask the cat

[01:37:04.0000] <Lachy>
how did your cat turn it on?

[01:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
sat on the keyboard

[01:38:01.0000] <Hixie>
command-f5 apparently

[01:38:02.0000] <Hixie>
man what a horrifying experience when you're not expecting it

[01:38:03.0000] <Hixie>
ok what were y'all talking about

[01:38:04.0000] <Hixie>
/me reads up

[01:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk: it waits 100ms before showing already

[01:40:01.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: green element summary boxes?

[01:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
i suppose i could hide it while scrolling is happening

[01:41:01.0000] <Hixie>
and fade it back in

[01:42:00.0000] <annevk>
transitions ftw

[01:42:01.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, these big green boxes that summarise the elements http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-html-element

[01:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
ooh, hmm

[01:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok let me poke around the css a bit

[01:44:01.0000] <Hixie>
this'll give me an opportunity to play with the new transition css stuff, too

[01:44:02.0000] <Hixie>
just gonna listen to a bit more developer's commentary in hl2ep2 first

[01:45:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: "I'm not familiar with the Shims browser and didn't find anything worthwhile about it." - http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=4050#4821

[01:45:01.0000] <Hixie>
-_-

[01:45:02.0000] <Hixie>
any idea what else to call it?

[01:45:03.0000] <Hixie>
Plugins maybe?

[01:45:04.0000] <zcorpan>
what do you mean with it?

[01:45:05.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, .status { opacity: .4; -o-transition: 1s; -webkit-transition: 1s; } .status:hover { opacity: 1; }

[01:46:00.0000] <Hixie>
it's supposed to be for anything that's not a browser that might help, JS libraries, Gears-like plugins, IE add-ons, whatever

[01:46:01.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: how about "JS libraries, plugins, etc"

[01:47:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, where is the new Shims icon? I can't see it in any of the status boxes

[01:47:01.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: too long

[01:47:02.0000] <annevk>
Shims? wtf

[01:47:03.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: well

[01:47:04.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: i guess not

[01:47:05.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: i can try

[01:47:06.0000] <Hixie>
thanks

[02:52:00.0000] <hsivonen>
wow. I wrote an interesting bug: the characters in foster-parented text are rotated right by one

[02:52:01.0000] <hsivonen>
so "bar" becomes "rba"

[02:52:02.0000] <nessy>
don't apply that to real people

[02:56:00.0000] <karlcow>
hsivonen: already done by marketing people… :) fcuk

[03:50:00.0000] <hsivonen>
was there a reason why the spec chose to do the taint management thing like Gecko does instead of doing the per flush tainting like WebKit does?

[03:50:01.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, I just got an undeliverable mail error when trying to reply to a thread on whatwg. Has something gone wrong with the mailing list?

[03:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
not to my knowledge, what does the message say exactly?

[03:51:01.0000] <Lachy>
I'll forward you a copy

[03:52:00.0000] <Lachy>
sent.

[04:15:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: looks like the mail server in question ran out of disk space, i expect dreamhost will fix it in due course

[04:20:00.0000] <Lachy>
ok

[04:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
i filed a support ticket just in case

[04:22:01.0000] <Hixie>
thanks

[04:23:00.0000] <Hixie>
btw try the spec now

[04:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
is it still as distracting?

[04:25:00.0000] <Lachy>
that's much better. I like how the floating status box doesn't overlap any of the non-floating status boxes any more

[04:25:01.0000] <Lachy>
except, I still don't like how they're overlapping the edge of the green element description boxes. 

[04:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah the green thing is next

[04:27:01.0000] <yecril71>
events in 1923 are already covered, and table of Roman emperors is Wikipedia-specific.

[04:28:00.0000] <Lachy>
eek, resizing my browser now with the spec open makes it hang for about 10 seconds

[04:28:01.0000] <Lachy>
not sure if that's anything to do with the scripts or just the size of it

[04:29:00.0000] <yecril71>
/me has to wait about 90 sec until he can click out to multipage

[04:33:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: calculations for resizing are deferred until 500ms after you stop resizing, so it shouldn't be the script

[04:33:01.0000] <Hixie>
yecril71: use http://whatwg.org/html5 as the direct link

[04:34:00.0000] <yecril71>
Tell it to W3C.

[04:34:01.0000] <Hixie>
?

[04:34:02.0000] <Hixie>
what's the w3c got to do with it

[04:34:03.0000] <yecril71>
The spec stored at W3C, in its status section, refers to the single page document.

[04:35:00.0000] <Hixie>
so don't read the w3c one :-) it's always going to be slightly more out of date anyway

[04:35:01.0000] <yecril71>
I don�t.

[04:36:00.0000] <yecril71>
Just the click path for W3C users goes through single-page.

[04:36:01.0000] <Lachy>
so?

[04:36:02.0000] <Hixie>
i thought you said YOU had to wait 90 seconds

[04:36:03.0000] <yecril71>
So, 

[04:37:00.0000] <yecril71>
Me and the handicapped 60% of the world.

[04:37:01.0000] <Lachy>
wtf?

[04:37:02.0000] <yecril71>
The people using MSIE.

[04:37:03.0000] <rubys>
lol

[04:37:04.0000] <Lachy>
yecril71, just load the single or multipage version directly. Don't even try using IE to read teh sepc

[04:37:05.0000] <Lachy>
*the spec

[04:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
yecril71: i thought you said you didn't read the w3c version.

[04:38:01.0000] <yecril71>
I do not.

[04:38:02.0000] <Hixie>
so why do you have to wait 90 seconds?

[04:38:03.0000] <yecril71>
For the WHATWG version to become clickable.

[04:39:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, the floating status box doesn't seem to be working in Opera

[04:39:01.0000] <Hixie>
yecril71: why do you go through the single page version?

[04:39:02.0000] <yecril71>
Because this is what the W3C version advises to use.

[04:40:00.0000] <yecril71>
I am trying to show you the experience of a first-time surfer.

[04:40:01.0000] <Hixie>
ok, i am hereby giving you better advice: use http://whatwg.org/html5

[04:40:02.0000] <Lachy>
wtf? Why does the W3C version matter if you're not looking at it?

[04:40:03.0000] <yecril71>
Give that advice to W3C.

[04:40:04.0000] <yecril71>
The W3C version matters because it can be used to go to WHATWG.

[04:41:00.0000] <yecril71>
And the W3C version matters because it is stored in the central repository

[04:41:01.0000] <yecril71>
for Web technology documents.

[04:41:02.0000] <Hixie>
i should stick some google analytics into the spec and see what browsers people really use on the spec

[04:41:03.0000] <Hixie>
yecril71: ok, i've updated the link

[04:41:04.0000] <yecril71>
Thx

[04:45:00.0000] <hsivonen>
whoa! IE8 behavior in cases where I expected foster parenting surprises me

[04:45:01.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, I can't figure out why the status box isn't showing in Opera. there doesn't seem to be any script errors and the CSS looks fine

[04:45:02.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: The load time of the spec is already abysmal without adding in google-cruft

[04:45:03.0000] <hsivonen>
apparently the IE8 mode does not foster parent

[04:45:04.0000] <hsivonen>
neither in the DOM nor in the CSS box tree

[04:46:00.0000] <Hixie>
it creates fake captions

[04:46:01.0000] <Hixie>
whose tagname is ''

[04:46:02.0000] <Hixie>
iirc

[04:46:03.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, doesn't the Dreamhost panel give you sufficient statistics to get a rough idea, without using google analyitics?

[04:46:04.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: yeah that's the main reason i haven't added anything

[04:46:05.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: that doesn't give me the numbers of the w3c copy

[04:47:00.0000] <hsivonen>
and Opera is visually compatible with the IE 5.5 mode

[04:47:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: this whole tainting business seems less and less useful

[04:47:02.0000] <yecril71>
The copy at W3C is readable.

[04:47:03.0000] <yecril71>
The problem with it is that it is not the latest, of course.

[04:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: oh?

[04:48:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: I'll send email

[04:48:02.0000] <Hixie>
k

[04:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: i don't know either. it works in firefox and safari, no error messages in opera.

[04:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
the editing also seems to not work

[04:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
in fact clicking anywhere doesn't seem to work

[04:52:01.0000] <Hixie>
wtf

[05:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: well the boxes no longer overlap the element green boxes anymore... technically...

[05:14:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'm actually mildly impressed with myself for the currently look

[05:14:01.0000] <Hixie>
not because it looks particularly cool

[05:14:02.0000] <Hixie>
but because it's non-trivial to get that effect using css :-)

[05:14:03.0000] <Hixie>
or rather, non-obvious

[05:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
holy crap, it even worked as is in opera and firefox without my having to do anything

[05:18:01.0000] <Hixie>
go standards!

[05:18:02.0000] <Hixie>
(i developed it in webkit)

[05:20:00.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: The status blox blinking in and out of slight is really quite annoying. 

[05:20:01.0000] <jgraham>
*box

[05:20:02.0000] <rubys>
slight?  <grin>

[05:21:00.0000] <jgraham>
:p

[05:23:00.0000] <Hixie>
aw man, y'all are hard to please

[05:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
lachy said it was annoying when it stayed there

[05:24:00.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: Would it fade in and out if I found a CSS transitions capable browser?

[05:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[05:24:02.0000] <Hixie>
i assume you have firefox

[05:24:03.0000] <Hixie>
in opera it doesn't appear at all for some reason

[05:24:04.0000] <jgraham>
Oh well I guess I could do that then

[05:24:05.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, have you seen how it looks in Firefox now? It looks broken

[05:25:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: does it look different than other browsers?

[05:25:01.0000] <rubys>
Just so I understand what we are talking about, we are talking about the box on the left in places such as here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/dom.html#sectioning-content

[05:25:02.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: i didn't say it was pretty...

[05:25:03.0000] <Hixie>
rubys: yeah, though it now stays on the left wherever you are

[05:25:04.0000] <Lachy>
I think WebKit showed the effect you were trying to achieve, with the heading sticking out to the left a little

[05:26:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me looks at firefox again

[05:26:01.0000] <Hixie>
my gecko trunk build shows it exactly almost pixel for pixel like my webkit trunk build

[05:26:02.0000] <Hixie>
are you using some old version of firefox?

[05:26:03.0000] <Lachy>
Firefox 3 is broken

[05:26:04.0000] <Hixie>
oh well yes, firefox 3 is ancient

[05:26:05.0000] <Hixie>
doesn't have abs pos generated content

[05:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
i suppose you're going to say i should support the latest official release huh

[05:27:01.0000] <Lachy>
well, I don't like using an unstable browser for general use

[05:27:02.0000] <Hixie>
ff3 is far less stable than ff trunk imho :-)

[05:27:03.0000] <Lachy>
although, it's probably stable enough to start using minefield now

[05:27:04.0000] <rubys>
I found that confusing for other reasons.  The implementation status is vacant, though if I view the screen from a rather oblique angle I can see that there are supposed to be icons there.  The links (e.g. zcorpan) say not implemented, and I have no idea what the triangle at the bottom means.

[05:28:00.0000] <rubys>
Of course, it could be that the problem is that I'm using FF 3.0.6.

[05:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
rubys: the triangle at the bottom means your browser doesn't support positioned generated content (probably, like lachy, an old firefox build like ff3)

[05:28:02.0000] <Hixie>
rubys: the icons being not visible means the browsers don't implement the feature

[05:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
rubys: and the links with the people's names give the names of the last person to edit the data, and the link is supposed to show the history, but i haven't implemented that yet

[05:29:01.0000] <Hixie>
i guess i can make them not links for now

[05:29:02.0000] <Lachy>
In Opera, it looks a little better than FF3, but not quite as good as WebKit

[05:29:03.0000] <rubys>
to me, an icon with a red x over it would be clearer... I don't know how to interpret a vacant area

[05:29:04.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: to amend my email: as far as I can tell, the only case where taint helps is foo<!-- --> <!-- -->bar which isn't exactly the most important concern

[05:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: taint was intended to help  <table> <tr> <td> vs <table>x y<tr>x y<td>

[05:30:01.0000] <rubys>
Any thoughts on what more could be done to prevent h3's in footers?

[05:30:02.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: the WebKit solution addresses that case

[05:30:03.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, why don't you lost the fancy border and return to having a straight edge that was there before?

[05:31:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: because then it would overlap the box like you didn't like

[05:31:01.0000] <Hixie>
rubys: not sure how to render a red cross using css

[05:31:02.0000] <Lachy>
can't you just indent the whole thing?

[05:31:03.0000] <Lachy>
why does the heading need to be indented less than the rest?

[05:31:04.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: i can't indent the <h4> because i don't have :matches() in selectors

[05:32:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: the class="element" element comes after the heading

[05:32:01.0000] <Lachy>
oh, ok. either I have to put up with overlapping or a wonky edge?!

[05:35:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, the other alternative is to make the status boxes slightly narrower instead

[05:36:00.0000] <Lachy>
although, perhaps that depends on the width of the icons inside them

[05:36:01.0000] <Lachy>
hmm. I will think about it and find a solution later

[05:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: at the cost of preventing incremental text, yeah. that was an invariant i was trying not to violate. but i guess maybe we should violate it.

[05:38:00.0000] <jgraham>
rubys: Of course we can't break apple.com so we have probably already lost that battle...

[05:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: i can't make them narrower now that we have five icons without making them disproportionally tall

[05:39:01.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: and making the margin wider, the other option, is something i'd rather avoid

[05:39:02.0000] <Hixie>
holy crap, even IE8 renders the wonky borders correctly

[05:39:03.0000] <Hixie>
go standards indeed

[05:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
IE8 actually handles the spec pretty well compared to earlier versions

[05:41:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: I think it's ok to violate the incremental text assumption when the element on the stack is table, thead, tbody, tfoot or tr

[05:42:00.0000] <hsivonen>
at least for now, I'm not doing incremental text at all

[05:42:01.0000] <Hixie>
hm i guess i could buy that

[05:42:02.0000] <Hixie>
Lachy: these wonky borders are kinda growing on me

[05:43:00.0000] <Lachy>
loading the spec in IE8 is an extremely painful process

[05:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
really? wasn't that bad for me

[05:43:02.0000] <Lachy>
it's so slow and unresponsive

[05:43:03.0000] <Hixie>
and i'm in a low-memory VM

[05:43:04.0000] <Lachy>
I always find IE slow and unresponsive on every machine I use it on, so it's not really a surprise

[05:51:00.0000] <Philip`>
hsivonen: Your public-html mail confuses Gmail's content-sensitive ads

[05:52:00.0000] <Philip`>
"World's First Surrogacy Agency Helping make babies since 1979"

[05:52:01.0000] <rubys>
jgraham: do we have anybody here who works at apple?  :-)  I don't presume that apple.com is unchanging...

[05:52:02.0000] <Philip`>
"Shampooing a Toddler can be Tough. Lil'Rinser The Hair Washing Helper"

[05:53:00.0000] <rubys>
Philip`: another success story for NLP!  <ducks>

[05:54:00.0000] <Lachy>
Philip`, I'm surprised you don't have an ad blocker enabled so you don't see google's ads.

[05:55:00.0000] <Lachy>
/me can't handle using the web without an ad blocker these days. The number of ads everywhere is just too much

[05:55:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Philip`: Natural Language Processing FTW

[05:56:00.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: I use Opera's content blocker thing, and I think I do block Google ads (because there was an incredibly irritating giant orange one on the MySQL site), but it doesn't work on Gmail

[05:56:01.0000] <Lachy>
really? Why not?

[05:57:00.0000] <Philip`>
Probably because they're not served the same way as normal Google ads

[05:57:01.0000] <rubys>
/me finds ThunderBird to be pleasantly ad-free

[05:57:02.0000] <Philip`>
/me uses Thunderbird too, but prefers Gmail's web interface for mailing lists

[05:58:00.0000] <Lachy>
hmm, interesting. Opera's content blocker isn't blocking it for me either, but the AdBlock Firefox plugin does. I must have some differences between my filter lists

[05:59:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me doesn't mind since the ones on Gmail are unintrusive

[05:59:01.0000] <rubys>
apparently not :-P

[06:00:00.0000] <Philip`>
Well, they're not completely invisible, and sometimes I look over in that direction to see how amusingly wrong it is :-)

[06:00:01.0000] <Philip`>
but they don't distract me when I'm trying to read mail

[06:01:00.0000] <rubys>
I also use gmail for other mailing lists (ASF), but for some reason not this one (yet).

[06:02:00.0000] <rubys>
I'm just pleased that I was finally able to stop using my employer provided email address on the W3C list.

[06:02:01.0000] <Philip`>
/me also blocks Flash ads as a side-effect of not having worked out how to make the Flash plugin work in Opera

[06:03:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me hopes the inevitable canvas and SVG ads will be less annoying thanks to native integration with the browser event loop

[06:04:00.0000] <Philip`>
Don't forget <video>

[06:04:01.0000] <Hixie>
anyone know a css hack that targets firefox 3 but not ff trunk?

[06:04:02.0000] <Philip`>
I don't see why being integrated with the browser will make them less annoying - the content will be the same, and it's easy to make browsers go horribly slow when making them render animated stuff

[06:05:00.0000] <Hixie>
eh screw it, ff3.next will be out soon enough

[06:05:01.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: <script>if(navigator.userAgent=='...')document.write('<style>...')</script>

[06:05:02.0000] <Hixie>
sadly this would have to be from within the css file

[06:05:03.0000] <Hixie>
i guess if people complain i'll add some script or something

[06:06:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'm going to bed now...

[06:06:01.0000] <Hixie>
nn

[06:06:02.0000] <hsivonen>
nn

[06:06:03.0000] <Philip`>
/me complains

[06:10:00.0000] <Philip`>
(...just out of principle, not any personal need)

[06:29:00.0000] <yecril71>
Big red cross: <SPAN STYLE="FONT-SIZE: X-LARGE; COLOR: RED" >+</SPAN >

[06:38:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: you have a test case that shows that ie8 doesn't do the foster-parent-emulation?

[06:43:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: IIRC, <table>a<td>b</td>c</table>

[06:43:01.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: with <!doctype html>

[06:43:02.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: i get a and c above b in live dom viewer

[06:44:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me reopens the VM

[06:44:01.0000] <zcorpan>
with "no name" elements as parents of a and c

[06:44:02.0000] <zcorpan>
(that are styled as captions)

[06:45:00.0000] <hsivonen>
saved as #19

[06:47:00.0000] <zcorpan>
/me sees "b" and "d" captioned

[06:47:01.0000] <zcorpan>
i.e. rendering order is a b d c e

[06:48:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: regarding <style>, see my message in http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-March/014148.html

[06:48:01.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/screen/ie8-no-foster-parent.png

[06:49:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: weird

[06:49:01.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders if zcorpan has compatibility mode switched on

[06:50:00.0000] <zcorpan>
nope

[06:50:01.0000] <Philip`>
Oh, okay then

[06:50:02.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: this is the build that shipped with the public beta of Windows 7

[06:50:03.0000] <zcorpan>
i have the rc1 build

[06:52:00.0000] <zcorpan>
i think the build that shipped with windows 7 was the partner preview build

[06:54:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: i don't mind changing <table><style> parsing though

[07:14:00.0000] <yecril71>
Philip`, do you have IE8 @hand?

[07:18:00.0000] <Philip`>
yecril71: I don't

[07:55:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me headdesks at karlcow

[08:22:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me notes in regards to Lachy_'s <![dD][oO][cC][tT][yY][pP][eE]\s+[hH][tT][mM][lL]\s*> complaint that the HTML5 spec itself said (until quite recently) "1) A U+003C LESS-THAN SIGN (<) character. 2) A U+0021 EXCLAMATION MARK (!) character. 3) A U+0044 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER D or U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D character. ..."

[08:24:00.0000] <Philip`>
so at least the regexp is simpler than what the spec said (at least for people who understand regexps), which is admittedly a low bar but it's better than nothing :-)

[08:35:00.0000] <Lachy_>
Philip`, the spec doesn't purport to be optimised for web developers, unlike the markup spec

[08:37:00.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy_: It does purport to be intended for them (among others)

[08:37:01.0000] <Philip`>
("This specification is intended for authors of documents and scripts that use the features defined in this specificaton ...")

[08:38:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders if a specificaton is kind of like a megaton

[08:39:00.0000] <Dashiva>
/me wonders if there exist specifications aren't intended for users of the specification

[08:39:01.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: I don't care enough to send email, so if you don't miss this in the log then s/specificaton/specification/ in #audience

[08:41:00.0000] <Philip`>
Dashiva: How about e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/ which looks like it's intended for maybe tool authors and not for normal people?

[08:42:00.0000] <Philip`>
(and the user-friendly stuff is split into a separate document which is not part of the specification)

[08:42:01.0000] <syp>
Hixie: I'm getting the unresponsive dialog script with Firefox 3.1/3.2 on the html5 spec. in status.js, findStatusByPosition the (high-low > 0) condition is never false.

[08:48:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Philip`: Different use of 'uses' then

[08:50:00.0000] <Philip`>
Dashiva: I assume you meant to user the term 'users'?

[08:52:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I had already rephrased the question in my head, but the sentence never reached my fingers

[08:55:00.0000] <Philip`>
You should type with your nose instead

[08:55:01.0000] <Philip`>
Much less distance for the nerve signals to travel

[08:55:02.0000] <Philip`>
and correspondingly less chance of them getting lost in transit

[08:57:00.0000] <jgraham>
I am slightly freaked out by the fact that I made a post to public-html on @summary and no one has replied within 24 hours.

[08:59:00.0000] <jgraham>
I am assuming that the reason was not that my arguments had a undeniable brilliance and so could not be refuted

[08:59:01.0000] <virtuelv>
html turns adult this year

[08:59:02.0000] <virtuelv>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-talk/1991SepOct/0003.html

[09:00:00.0000] <Philip`>
You can't really expect every post to get a reply - it's like a pyramid scheme, and someone has to get stuck at the leaf nodes

[09:00:01.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: You can reply to multiple posts at the same time so preventing the exponential growth

[09:00:02.0000] <jcranmer>
Philip`: I take it you've never seen newsgroup threads?

[09:00:03.0000] <Philip`>
(I know pyramids don't have leaves but I don't know the term for the blocks you put at the very bottom of a pyramid :-( )

[09:01:00.0000] <jcranmer>
cornerstones?

[09:01:01.0000] <jcranmer>
one sci.math thread is up past 1.5K messages

[09:01:02.0000] <Philip`>
I would tend to assume that cornerstones are at corners

[09:02:00.0000] <Philip`>
and pyramids only have four corners at the bottom

[09:02:01.0000] <Philip`>
which is hardly exponential

[09:02:02.0000] <jcranmer>
it's a fractal pyramid :-)

[09:02:03.0000] <Philip`>
/me tries to visualise it

[09:02:04.0000] <Philip`>
/me fails

[09:03:00.0000] <jcranmer>
Sierpinski (sp?) Pyramid!

[09:03:01.0000] <gsnedders>
virtuelv: TimBL said at TPAC that it was 18 and a half then

[09:03:02.0000] <Philip`>
http://philip.html5.org/demos/apng/sierpinski.png

[09:03:03.0000] <Philip`>
Someone needs to make a 3D version of APNG

[09:04:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: A3DPNG?

[09:04:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
/me is glad that the xml core wg seem to be opposed to normalization checking in xml

[09:04:02.0000] <virtuelv>
gsnedders: I'm counting public mention, not inception

[09:04:03.0000] <gsnedders>
virtuelv: hehe

[09:05:00.0000] <gsnedders>
I did feel rather inappropriate sitting beside timbl when he mentioned that in the HTML WG/TAG joint meeting at TPAC

[09:05:01.0000] <jcranmer>
bah, display doesn't like APNG

[09:06:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me suggests that HTML might follow wizarding rules and come of age at 17 rather than muggle's rules of 18

[09:06:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me suggests that HTML might follow Scottish law and come of age at 16

[09:07:00.0000] <Philip`>
jcranmer: There's this neat image display tool called Firefox that might work better

[09:07:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me tries to come up with a reason for it to be Scottish

[09:07:02.0000] <jcranmer>
Philip`: not for 24K×12K images!

[09:40:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Is there any easy way to get a graphic RDF graph?

[09:40:01.0000] <gsnedders>
(from RDF/XML?)

[09:41:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Dump the triples into Graphviz .dot format?

[09:42:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: I don't want to write code that does that

[09:42:01.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: Surely someone already wriote code to do that?

[09:42:02.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: Where?

[09:42:03.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Isn't it, like, a single print statement?

[09:42:04.0000] <Philip`>
in a loop

[09:43:00.0000] <jgraham>
http://www.w3.org/2001/11/IsaViz/

[09:44:00.0000] <jgraham>
http://librdf.org/raptor/

[09:47:00.0000] <jgraham>
http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/frodo/RDFSViz/

[09:48:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me was coping for adulation for his ability to use Google

[09:48:01.0000] <jgraham>
hoping

[09:51:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: thx

[09:51:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me blatantly doesn't know what to search for

[10:05:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Wow. Most of these suck for any large graph.

[10:31:00.0000] <gsnedders>
RDF and Sparkle are crazy.

[10:33:00.0000] <gsnedders>
s/Sparkle/SPARQL/

[10:33:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me is having thought -> audio -> text loop failing him

[10:48:00.0000] <yecril71>
Dashiva!  OpenXML is a specification that is not intended for anyone to use.

[11:01:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
jgraham: does html5lib's sanitizer make things safe for browsers that do a reparse in comments or (r)cdata elements?

[11:01:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
jgraham: or title=``onclick=doEvil()

[11:02:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
(hmm equals sign is not allowed in unquoted attributes)

[11:03:00.0000] <gsnedders>
zcorpan_: Due to it being serialized the output will include --> even if the input doesn't

[11:03:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Likewise with (R)CDATA

[11:04:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
gsnedders: yes but the server could still be DoS-attacked causing an early EOF

[11:04:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Then none of those three things is safe

[11:04:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
which is the third thing you're referring to?

[13:40:00.0000] <sicking>
Hixie, ping

[13:41:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Oh noes, it's sicking

[13:41:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me hides

[13:42:00.0000] <sicking>
/me slaps gsnedders with a wet salmon

[13:43:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me grabs the salmon, cooks it, eats it, and thanks sicking for his supper

[13:43:01.0000] <sicking>
enjoy :)

[14:21:00.0000] <Hixie>
sicking: here

[14:23:00.0000] <sicking>
Hixie, so i had a brief talk with Sam about the svg-in-html situation when he was here (a few weeks ago)

[14:23:01.0000] <sicking>
and so I had some feedback. However I don't really know what the status of the whole sitation is

[14:24:00.0000] <sicking>
don't want to start a war if i can avoid it

[14:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
the status is that there's a commented out bit that is getting implemented by some people, and the svg wg is supposed to send feedback on what their requirements are, either commenting on the commented out proposal, or suggesting a new one

[14:25:00.0000] <heycam>
we are going to be sending comments based on the commented out version

[14:25:01.0000] <Hixie>
they did suggest some proposal at one point but it had issues that i commentd on

[14:25:02.0000] <heycam>
that should be sent to the HTML WG within a week, at a guess

[14:25:03.0000] <Hixie>
cool

[14:26:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Is the SVG WG list member only?

[14:26:01.0000] <heycam>
gsnedders, nope

[14:26:02.0000] <heycam>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/

[14:26:03.0000] <Hixie>
syp: yt?

[14:26:04.0000] <gsnedders>
/me wonders whether he should subscribe, knowing he already has way too many subscriptions

[14:26:05.0000] <heycam>
:)

[14:26:06.0000] <syp>
Hixie: yes

[14:26:07.0000] <Hixie>
syp: you still getting that slow script dialog?

[14:27:00.0000] <heycam>
gsnedders, in fact i am not sure if it is possible for non-WG members to subscribe to it

[14:27:01.0000] <sicking>
Hixie, cool, i'll wait for the svg group to comment first then

[14:27:02.0000] <heycam>
/me tries, from a different email address

[14:27:03.0000] <gsnedders>
heycam: Yeah, I just noticed that

[14:28:00.0000] <syp>
Hixie: yes

[14:28:01.0000] <syp>
Hixie: did you change something?

[14:29:00.0000] <syp>
/me clears cache

[14:29:01.0000] <Hixie>
syp: no... but i can't work out why you're seeing it

[14:29:02.0000] <heycam>
hmm, no response to sending mail to public-svg-wg-request

[14:29:03.0000] <Hixie>
syp: do you have a slow pc?

[14:30:00.0000] <syp>
no, pretty fast (on Linux). I could reproduce it on Windows with Firefox 3.1

[14:37:00.0000] <syp>
Hixie: it happens after the document is loaded and you try to scroll somewhere.

[14:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
maybe it's a ff3.1 bug fixed on trunk?

[14:40:00.0000] <syp>
/me tries trunk

[14:41:00.0000] <syp>
yeah maybe, it works there.

[14:42:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok weird

[14:42:01.0000] <Hixie>
wtf did i use that's ff3.1 only!

[14:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok my vm has ff2, let's see how it handles it

[14:43:01.0000] <syp>
I thought about some floating point behavior that changed with the new js engine.

[14:43:02.0000] <Hixie>
no problem in ff2 even

[14:43:03.0000] <Hixie>
must be something like that yeah

[14:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
while i'm there let me fix the styling issues in ff2

[14:48:00.0000] <syp>
hm, works with 3.1 nightly. So it should be fixed on the next beta3.

[14:53:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok i fixed the problems in ff2

[14:53:01.0000] <Hixie>
now upgrading to ff3 to fix those

[15:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
whatwg list should work again btw

[15:35:00.0000] <aroben>
hsivonen: yt?

[15:36:00.0000] <aroben>
hsivonen: nm, I've discovered the validator.nu bugzilla

[15:37:00.0000] <virtuelv>
This might be a dumb question, but is there any particular reason why <meter> is linear only?

[15:39:00.0000] <virtuelv>
I mean, you have stuff like vu meters which decidedly are logarithmic in nature

[15:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
just a matter of starting simple

[15:40:01.0000] <Hixie>
you can use <meter> for log scales, just log the values first :-)

[15:42:00.0000] <virtuelv>
indeed, but it's nicer to avoid doing a transform on them 

[15:42:01.0000] <Lachy>
virtuelv, if, once <meter> is deployed, we see evidence of people using them for logarithm scales, we can investigate solutions for HTML6

[15:44:00.0000] <Lachy>
do you have an example of something that uses a log scale and for which <meter> would be useful?

[15:44:01.0000] <virtuelv>
I gave one a bit up

[15:45:00.0000] <virtuelv>
you'll find the examples mostly in science

[15:45:01.0000] <Lachy>
I don't know what a "vu meter" is. I meant do you have an example you could point me to?

[15:45:02.0000] <virtuelv>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VU_meter

[15:47:00.0000] <virtuelv>
occurences of logarithmic scales: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithmic_scale

[15:57:00.0000] <virtuelv>
This also worries me:

[15:57:01.0000] <virtuelv>
"The meter element represents a scalar measurement within a known range, or a fractional value; for example disk usage, the relevance of a query result, or the fraction of a voting population to have selected a particular candidate."

[15:57:02.0000] <virtuelv>
it's not clear to me from reading what "known range is"

[15:57:03.0000] <virtuelv>
is 1-[over 9000] a valid known range?

[15:58:00.0000] <virtuelv>
[over 9000] is an indeterminate number, only known to be over 9000

[15:59:00.0000] <virtuelv>
it could be 9001, or 9000^10e8


2009-02-26
[16:00:00.0000] <Lachy>
virtuelv, I think the spec means a range in which both the upper and lower values are known and exact values

[16:00:01.0000] <virtuelv>
Lachy: and I'm arguing that that is completely wrong

[16:01:00.0000] <virtuelv>
in the Wikipedia article, there is a perfectly valid usage example of the upper bound being a random number exceeding some value

[16:01:01.0000] <Lachy>
how would you possibly implement a range in which, e.g., the upper value is somewhere between 9000 and infinity?

[16:02:00.0000] <Lachy>
which example, specifically?

[16:02:01.0000] <virtuelv>
the tsunami example

[16:02:02.0000] <virtuelv>
it's something entirely representable and acceptable within a meter

[16:03:00.0000] <virtuelv>
disregard the presentation given there

[16:03:01.0000] <Lachy>
I can't see tsunami mentioned on either the VU_meter or Logarithm_scale pages.

[16:04:00.0000] <virtuelv>
the map in «Graphic representation»

[16:05:00.0000] <virtuelv>
an alternative representation here would typically be a bar chart of values

[16:05:01.0000] <virtuelv>
see also the example in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH

[16:05:02.0000] <virtuelv>
"Applications"

[16:07:00.0000] <Lachy>
in that map, the scale is still physically limited to using a single colour for values of 100,000+. To represent such values with a <meter>, you would have to set a fixed upper limit to what can be represented

[16:08:00.0000] <virtuelv>
Lachy: and the spec claims that meter has a finite upper bound

[16:09:00.0000] <virtuelv>
""The meter element represents a scalar measurement within a known range""

[16:09:01.0000] <virtuelv>
the point that "over 9000" is not within a known range

[16:10:00.0000] <Lachy>
in that specific map example, you would only need to represent 6 values <meter low=1 high=6>#</meter>, where # is the value

[16:11:00.0000] <virtuelv>
Lachy: no

[16:11:01.0000] <virtuelv>
the ph scale is infinite in either direction

[16:11:02.0000] <Lachy>
well, actually, you might do <meter low=1 high=6 value=3>100-999</meter>

[16:12:00.0000] <virtuelv>
Lachy: which, again, is not included in the very first sentence in the very first paragraph of the definition of the <meter>

[16:12:01.0000] <Lachy>
there is no possible way to represent an infinite scale.  You have to set a physical upper limit and live with it

[16:13:00.0000] <virtuelv>
(there is a point here about logarithmic scales and values and ranges

[16:13:01.0000] <virtuelv>
trying to argue against this is arguing against a couple of hundred years of science where logarithmic scales have been used

[16:14:00.0000] <Lachy>
I'm not arguing against logarithmic scales. I'm saying that to represent them, something, somewhere, needs to set an upper limit in order to be able to render the scale within a finite size.

[16:15:00.0000] <virtuelv>
no, you *can't*

[16:15:01.0000] <virtuelv>
the point is that +inf is a perfectly valid upper bound as well

[16:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
syp: works fine for me in ff3 on windows

[16:17:00.0000] <syp>
Hixie: ff3 should be fine, it's only 3.1 beta2 that had issues.

[16:17:01.0000] <Lachy>
sure, mathematically, it is. But I'm talking about how to represent that physically where it is absolutely not possible to represent truly infinite scale in a finite space. There are physical limits that have to be dealt with, and that map example is a perfect illustration, since it sets the physical limit at 100,000+

[16:17:02.0000] <Hixie>
syp: oh, a beta, ok

[16:17:03.0000] <Hixie>
syp: sorry, missed the beta part :-)

[16:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
virtuelv: <meter> isn't yet intended for all those cases

[16:18:01.0000] <virtuelv>
Hixie: what is, then?

[16:18:02.0000] <Hixie>
in html5? nothing, just like html4

[16:18:03.0000] <Hixie>
ue svg :-)

[16:18:04.0000] <virtuelv>
right now it seems to mostly cater to google pagerank display and search result relevance

[16:18:05.0000] <Hixie>
use even

[16:19:00.0000] <syp>
Hixie: and it now works with Firefox 3.1 post beta2, so that shouldn't be a big deal.

[16:19:01.0000] <virtuelv>
in the matter of max value and upper bound, sure it's ok to impose a "practical" limit

[16:19:02.0000] <Hixie>
syp: k

[16:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
virtuelv: the main use case now is to discourage people from using <progress>

[16:20:01.0000] <virtuelv>
huh?

[16:21:00.0000] <Hixie>
the main use case for <meter> is to give people who would otherwise abuse <progress> to show static data an alternative

[16:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
so that people don't abuse <progress>

[16:23:00.0000] <virtuelv>
yes, I understand that's what you meant, I'm just puzzled by why you're creating one element with limited use to discourage use of other elements

[16:24:00.0000] <virtuelv>
that's like reinstating <strike> into the spec because otherwise people would abuse <del>

[16:28:00.0000] <virtuelv>
<strike> would've been better named as <justkidding>

[16:28:01.0000] <Hixie>
virtuelv: well for <del> here's CSS

[16:28:02.0000] <Hixie>
for <progress> there isn't really a good alternative right now for non-progress meters

[16:28:03.0000] <Hixie>
i expect <meter> will be extended in html6, like everything else

[16:28:04.0000] <Hixie>
we have to start small

[16:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
holy crap the HTML5 spec doesn't work well in IE8 compat mode

[16:29:01.0000] <Hixie>
about 25% down the spec disappears

[16:29:02.0000] <Hixie>
wtf

[16:32:00.0000] <virtuelv>
Hixie: for then, could you also make a note of having a mechanism for discretization of values for meter (and possibly progress, even)

[16:33:00.0000] <virtuelv>
I mean, you can be 2/3rds done, but you want to represent it as one dot, two dots, three dots

[16:33:01.0000] <Hixie>
?

[16:33:02.0000] <Hixie>
for when?

[16:34:00.0000] <Hixie>
the presentational aspects are separate from html5 really

[16:34:01.0000] <Hixie>
i mean there's a presentation section that gives some constraints

[16:34:02.0000] <Hixie>
but generally it's up to the browser or the author with xbl

[16:41:00.0000] <virtuelv>
Hixie: my point is that, let's say I want to represent a large range of values with <meter> in a table

[16:42:00.0000] <virtuelv>
I want the range 0-100 to be represented by a value of 1 indicator step in your default presentation

[16:42:01.0000] <virtuelv>
the range 100-1000 by another

[16:42:02.0000] <virtuelv>
and 1001-9000 by a third level

[16:42:03.0000] <virtuelv>
and "over 9000" to be represented by a fourth

[16:43:00.0000] <virtuelv>
(Sorry about the 4chan-trolling-Oprah example)

[16:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
then just use a unicode block character or something

[16:44:01.0000] <Hixie>
no need for <meter>

[16:45:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah the problem is the idn thing

[16:46:00.0000] <Hixie>
er, wrong channel again!

[17:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
huh, this turned out to be a pretty good article

[17:37:01.0000] <Hixie>
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=protocols_and_standards&articleId=9128096&taxonomyId=141&intsrc=kc_feat

[17:59:00.0000] <Lachy>
compared with previous computer world articles I've read, that's certainly one of the better ones

[18:19:00.0000] <Hixie>
so is there a way to use these transition thingies to make an element flash yellow temporarily when it's the :target?

[18:19:01.0000] <Hixie>
or does that require script somehow

[18:21:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, I think that would need a script or CSS Animations http://webkit.org/specs/CSSVisualEffects/CSSAnimation.html

[18:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
ooh, css animations

[18:22:01.0000] <Hixie>
forgot about those

[18:22:02.0000] <Lachy>
I think webkit supports that, though I haven't played with them yet. Opera doesn't yet have support for them, even internally

[18:23:00.0000] <roc_>
I'm not sold on CSS animations

[18:24:00.0000] <roc>
but I think you can do Hixie's thing using CSS transitions

[18:24:01.0000] <Lachy>
how?

[18:24:02.0000] <Lachy>
you would need a script to control it

[18:24:03.0000] <roc>
set up a transition on, say, background-color

[18:25:00.0000] <roc>
add a CSS rule blahblah:target { background-color:yellow; }

[18:25:01.0000] <Lachy>
sure, but that only allows it to transition from one value to another. It won't flash temporarily as he wants.

[18:25:02.0000] <Hixie>
yeah i'm just looking to flash it temporarily

[18:25:03.0000] <roc>
just make the transition slow

[18:26:00.0000] <Hixie>
i want the element to quickly go to yellow, then fade to white

[18:26:01.0000] <Hixie>
when it is :target

[18:26:02.0000] <Hixie>
the rule above would make it fade to yellow and stay yellow

[18:26:03.0000] <roc>
you can control the shape of the transition

[18:26:04.0000] <Hixie>
can you make it go backwards?

[18:26:05.0000] <Lachy>
no, you can't make it go backwards

[18:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
then it doesn't really help

[18:27:01.0000] <Hixie>
unless i'm missing something

[18:27:02.0000] <roc>
I guess you're right

[18:28:00.0000] <Lachy>
maybe you could do it with generated content

[18:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh?

[18:29:01.0000] <Lachy>
hmm, thinking...

[18:31:00.0000] <Lachy>
foo::before { -o-transition: background-color 2s; background: yellow; visibility: hidden; position: ...; /* make it sit behind the element*/ } foo:target::before { visibility: visible; background: transparent; }

[18:32:00.0000] <roc>
you could even use display:none instead of visiblity:hidden to make that less expensive

[18:33:00.0000] <Lachy>
roc, sure. I didn't realise there was a performance difference between the two

[18:33:01.0000] <Hixie>
the "..." part is the tough one

[18:34:00.0000] <Lachy>
hence why I did the "..." :-)

[18:34:01.0000] <Hixie>
since for various reasons i don't want to set position:relative on everything else

[18:35:00.0000] <Lachy>
if you want it to work for everything, setting position: relative; would be relatively inexpensive. But doing it for everything certainly would be painful.

[18:35:01.0000] <Lachy>
I meant, if you want to do it for *headings only*

[18:37:00.0000] <roc>
you could hack it with borders

[18:37:01.0000] <Lachy>
try the old fashioned way: :target { background-image: url(animated-yellow-fadout.gif); }

[18:38:00.0000] <Lachy>
how?

[18:38:01.0000] <Lachy>
roc, how would you do it with borders?

[18:38:02.0000] <roc>
foo { transition: border-color 2s; border-style:none; border-color:yellow; }    foo:target { border-style:solid; border-color:transparent; }

[18:39:00.0000] <roc>
well I guess that doesn't do exactly what you want

[18:39:01.0000] <Lachy>
but that doesn't have the border behind the element

[18:39:02.0000] <roc>
maybe you want border-style:hidden so the layout doesn't change

[18:39:03.0000] <roc>
or do it with 'outline' instead

[18:40:00.0000] <Lachy>
an outline with an outline-offset might work.

[18:40:01.0000] <roc>
Hixie didn't say it had to be behind the element

[18:40:02.0000] <Lachy>
well, he said he wanted it for the background, which is behind the element.

[18:41:00.0000] <Lachy>
well, at least, he implied it

[18:41:01.0000] <roc>
not to me he didn't :-)

[18:41:02.0000] <Lachy>
how else do you make "the element flash yellow"

[18:42:00.0000] <Hixie>
i found another solution to bz's problem

[18:42:01.0000] <Hixie>
body { margin-bottom: 25% }

[18:42:02.0000] <Lachy>
what was his problem?

[18:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
going to a small bottom section in the multipage version didn't clearly show which section was targetted

[18:44:00.0000] <Lachy>
oh, ok. I was wondering why the spec wasn't long enough as it is :-)

[18:44:01.0000] <Hixie>
hah

[18:46:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, there's a bug in the status box script, which shows the floating status box for one section in subsequent sections if they don't have one of their own

[18:47:00.0000] <Hixie>
that's intentional

[18:47:01.0000] <Hixie>
feel free to add new section boxes if it's going from like an h3 section to an h2 section though

[18:47:02.0000] <Hixie>
(the section boxes are actually just targetting any element child of <body> with an ID, iirc)

[18:48:00.0000] <Lachy>
see, e.g., http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-marquee-element-0 and subsequent sections. It didn't make sense that it said Yet to be specified, even though the sections I'd scrolled to had lots of content

[18:48:01.0000] <Hixie>
(i.e. they're not really "section" boxes)

[18:48:02.0000] <Lachy>
ok

[18:50:00.0000] <Hixie>
i added a box

[18:50:01.0000] <Hixie>
ok dinner bbiab

[00:32:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me kills <eventsource>

[00:32:01.0000] <Hixie>
poor element

[00:32:02.0000] <Hixie>
it had a rough life

[00:32:03.0000] <Hixie>
/me welcomes the new EventSource('...') object!

[00:33:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Is new EventSource() compatible with what Opera shipped? That is, does it create an <event-source> DOM node in Opera? like Image()

[00:33:01.0000] <Hixie>
no, not even remotely

[00:33:02.0000] <Hixie>
but what the spec said yesterday wasn't either

[00:34:00.0000] <hsivonen>
ok. sucks to be the one gaining impl. experience

[00:34:01.0000] <Hixie>
yup

[00:34:02.0000] <Hixie>
we've changed the wire format and its mime type since opera shipped event-sourec

[00:34:03.0000] <Hixie>
event-source

[00:34:04.0000] <Hixie>
and now the api

[00:34:05.0000] <Hixie>
there's basically nothing left except the idea :-)

[00:35:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: so what's the remaining selling point over Web Sockets? that you can feed EventSource from a regular HTTP server?

[00:35:01.0000] <Hixie>
the only selling point over websocket that it's ever had is that it is compatible with CGI scripts

[00:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
i.e. yes

[00:36:01.0000] <hsivonen>
ok

[00:36:02.0000] <Hixie>
but apparently that's enough to keep people eager to have it

[00:42:00.0000] <annevk2>
I'm sort of glad the API is much simpler now

[00:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
it's actually technically more complicated :-)

[00:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
at least, the idl is bigger

[00:43:02.0000] <Hixie>
but yeah, it's simpler

[00:43:03.0000] <annevk2>
dude

[00:43:04.0000] <Hixie>
yes?

[00:43:05.0000] <annevk2>
it was even more complicated at the start, when you could create all kinds of event objects

[00:44:00.0000] <annevk2>
Hixie, I object to technically more complicated on the basis that the IDL has more lines!

[00:44:01.0000] <Hixie>
:-)

[00:44:02.0000] <Hixie>
it is indeed far simpler now

[00:44:03.0000] <Hixie>
for example you can no longer hook an EventSource to an XMLHttpRequest object

[00:44:04.0000] <Hixie>
(cue "awwwww")

[00:44:05.0000] <hsivonen>
not AWWW? :-)

[00:44:06.0000] <Hixie>
but i did add a few more features while i was at it

[00:44:07.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: hah

[00:47:00.0000] <gsnedders>
awwwww

[00:47:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me misses that feature

[00:49:00.0000] <annevk2>
Hixie, the URL attribute should probably return the absolute URL

[00:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
remind me in ten minutes

[01:17:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/ is 403

[01:17:01.0000] <Hixie>
yikes

[01:19:00.0000] <Hixie>
http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/

[01:23:00.0000] <annevk2>
I have to say, it really sucks that the archives keep moving around

[01:24:00.0000] <annevk2>
maybe we should ask the W3C for some mail server space o_O

[01:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
heh

[01:26:00.0000] <Hixie>
did i miss some e-mails on the spellcheck issue? i have some still in my whatwg folder from before my last e-mail on the subject

[01:26:01.0000] <Hixie>
how odd

[01:29:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: thanks

[01:30:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I gather the URI structure instability is due to Dreamhost managing the whole thing?

[01:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[01:30:02.0000] <Hixie>
the utter disaster of an archive system is blamed on the same reason

[01:30:03.0000] <annevk2>
Hixie, do you remember the reason #123 does not work in CSS?

[01:33:00.0000] <hsivonen>
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/582352/how-can-i-ignore-dtd-validation-but-keep-the-doctype-when-writing-an-xml-file

[01:34:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk2: because css1 says it doesn't? dunno

[01:35:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Is this yet another case of an arbitrary decision that indents can't start with digits?

[01:36:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Is that some kind of old programming language thing that parsers should be able to decide if they are parsing an ident or a number literal from the first character?

[01:36:01.0000] <annevk2>
well, that has a reason, to distinguish them from numbers + unit

[01:36:02.0000] <annevk2>
Hixie, I thought there was some other reason, ta

[01:37:00.0000] <hsivonen>
oh, right CSS has units. not arbitrary then. sorry

[01:38:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I'm just knee-jerk annoyed by stuff like XML Name

[01:38:01.0000] <annevk2>
no shit

[01:38:02.0000] <annevk2>
XML5 baby

[01:42:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk2: my guess is originally hakon and bert were trying to match html

[01:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk2: hakon might know

[01:43:01.0000] <annevk2>
kk

[01:46:00.0000] <annevk2>
crap, web-apps-tracker fails with a 500

[01:46:01.0000] <annevk2>
did DreamHost change anything?

[01:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me looks in his filter folder

[01:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
holy crap

[01:51:02.0000] <olliej>
Hixie: that sky has fallen

[01:51:03.0000] <Hixie>
so that's where all the public-html activity has gone

[01:51:04.0000] <olliej>
s/that/the

[01:51:05.0000] <Hixie>
olliej: which one?

[01:51:06.0000] <olliej>
Hixie: can you test html5.org ?

[01:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
test?

[01:52:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me confoosed

[01:52:02.0000] <olliej>
it's gone for me

[01:52:03.0000] <olliej>
server no workie

[01:52:04.0000] <olliej>
i'm trying to find out whether the server is down, or comcast hates freedom

[01:52:05.0000] <Hixie>
yeah doesn't work for me either, but i'm on comcast

[01:52:06.0000] <Hixie>
anne runs that server though

[01:53:00.0000] <olliej>
bad annevk2 

[01:53:01.0000] <annevk2>
you joined just after I complained about DreamHost

[01:54:00.0000] <olliej>
ah :D

[01:54:01.0000] <annevk2>
because I didn't do shit

[01:54:02.0000] <olliej>
annevk2: nerget.com is doing fine :D

[01:54:03.0000] <Hixie>
so's whatwg.org :-)

[01:55:00.0000] <didymos>
http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/html5.org heh

[01:55:01.0000] <didymos>
Hixie, but whatwg.org works fine

[01:56:00.0000] <annevk2>
so everything went down?

[01:56:01.0000] <annevk2>
geez

[01:56:02.0000] <annevk2>
initially it was just the tracker

[01:56:03.0000] <Hixie>
everything on your account, i guess

[01:57:00.0000] <annevk2>
yeah

[01:58:00.0000] <gsnedders>
And gsnedders.com isn't on dreamhost :P

[01:59:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: What is it on?

[02:00:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: mediatemple, for now

[02:00:01.0000] <Hixie>
probably the same stuff gsnedders himself is on

[02:00:02.0000] <gsnedders>
Touché.

[02:00:03.0000] <Hixie>
:-D

[02:00:04.0000] <gsnedders>
Is it bad that I realized I haven't taken any (medical) drugs today because of that?

[02:01:00.0000] <Hixie>
as someone who rarely if ever takes medical drugs of any kind, i am not in a position to answer that question

[02:02:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me can't connect to hobgoblin at all

[02:02:01.0000] <gsnedders>
annevk2: What's a spec you edit that uses biblio?

[02:03:00.0000] <gsnedders>
(or anyone else edits, but you probably know what you edit better)

[02:03:01.0000] <Philip`>
annevk2: I hope you'll refund a substantial portion of what I'm paying you for hosting philip.html5.org

[02:04:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: It depends if it reminded you to take some regular medical drugs or if it was just a passing observation that you haven't taken any irregular drugs tody

[02:04:01.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: Regular medical drugs

[02:04:02.0000] <annevk2>
gsnedders, I don't use biblio, I do stuff by hand

[02:04:03.0000] <gsnedders>
Who does? P

[02:04:04.0000] <gsnedders>
* :P

[02:04:05.0000] <annevk2>
gsnedders, actually, css3-mediaqueries might use biblio

[02:05:00.0000] <annevk2>
Philip`, EUR -1000 coming right at ye

[02:05:01.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: Oh well in that case it is probably good that it reminded you but bad that you had forgotten :)

[02:05:02.0000] <Philip`>
annevk2: Excellent!

[02:05:03.0000] <gsnedders>
/me remembers seeing something that claims annevk2 edits using it

[02:05:04.0000] <gsnedders>
annevk2: css-namespace does

[02:06:00.0000] <annevk2>
well, that's two specs then

[02:06:01.0000] <gsnedders>
But that was mainly fantasai judging from the commit log

[02:06:02.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: Also, it's reminded the reason why I haven't: I need food to have some of the pills, and I haven't had breakfast yet.

[02:07:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me sympathises

[02:08:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me suffers for incredible medication related paranoia as it is hard to conclusively prove to yourself that you took the right number of tablets at the right time

[02:08:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me has probably taken numerous overdoses of paracetamol because of that, but has seemingly lived

[02:11:00.0000] <jgraham>
I guess paracetamol is not so bad 

[02:11:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me is also nowadays reguarly on Diclofenac

[02:14:00.0000] <gsnedders>
(without taking either I can scarcely move for pain)

[02:14:01.0000] <jgraham>
/me looks that up, decides that gsnedders is unlikely to be suffering from menstrual pain

[02:14:02.0000] <gsnedders>
:P

[02:14:03.0000] <gsnedders>
Despite most of my friends at school concluding I am a girl, that is indeed correct.

[02:31:00.0000] <Philip`>
"Building Services has just installed anti-bacterial soap dispensers in each of the kitchens to help to reduce the risk of the vomiting viral infection."

[02:32:00.0000] <Philip`>
Isn't anti-bacterial soap a bit unsuitable for stopping viruses?

[02:33:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Not if it's anti-your-own-bacteria and leads to your hands falling off?

[02:34:00.0000] <Philip`>
Good point

[02:34:01.0000] <jgraham>
Maybe the soap smells really bad so it causes people to stay further away from each other reducing the risk of virus transmission?

[02:41:00.0000] <Dashiva>
/me wonders why rubys is plotting to overthrow the W3C when they've already given him all the power he wants

[02:41:01.0000] <jgraham>
What makes you think he's not gone power crazy?

[02:42:00.0000] <Dashiva>
But if he overthrows them, he will lose the power he has because the legitimacy disappears

[02:43:00.0000] <Philip`>
The power to overthrow an organisation is greater than the power you can attain by operating within that organisation

[02:43:01.0000] <jgraham>
And in nay case power-crazed evil geniuses are not noted for their logical reasoning skills

[02:44:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Oh, so now he's a genius too?

[02:45:00.0000] <jgraham>
For example givne the choice beteen killing batman using a) a simple gun and b) placing him in the bottom of an eggtimer and slowly letting the sand run through, hich would you pick?

[02:46:00.0000] <Dashiva>
He's got bulletproof armor, so b) would at least have a non-zero chance of success

[02:46:01.0000] <Philip`>
Does he have bulletproof armour on his face?

[02:46:02.0000] <jgraham>
Can the bulletproof armour be removed once you have captured him to the extent that getting him into a giant eggtimer is a possibility?

[02:47:00.0000] <Philip`>
The giant eggtimer seems easier than capturing him and undressing him

[02:48:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Now you're assuming capture

[02:48:01.0000] <Philip`>
e.g. you could drop it from a helicopter

[02:48:02.0000] <Dashiva>
Or put a hostage inside, so he had to go in voluntarily

[02:48:03.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: i hate to interrupt this fascinating if strange conversation, but do you have a uri to that page with summary values?

[02:49:00.0000] <jgraham>
You could do both of those things with a simple cage, remove any armour, and then finally use a traditional, reliable method of killing

[02:50:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hixie: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/summary.html ? (But it's not formatted in a way that makes it easy to tell if most uses are bad, and it's not from anything even attempting to approach a sensible sample of pages)

[02:50:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Then you'd have to go inside the cage

[02:51:00.0000] <jgraham>
Dashiva: Expendable henchmen

[02:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
Philip`: thanks

[02:51:02.0000] <Philip`>
(But at least it does demonstrate of some pages which would get worse if the summary was rendered in graphical UAs)

[02:51:03.0000] <Philip`>
s/of//

[02:51:04.0000] <Dashiva>
jgraham: I think you should provide some justification for why the egg timer isn't good enough

[02:52:00.0000] <Philip`>
s/s\/of\/\///

[02:52:01.0000] <Philip`>
s/of/the existence of/

[02:54:00.0000] <jgraham>
Dashiva: It p[rovides an unacceptable risk. Egg timers are unproven technology in the killing market. Moreover it introduces a long delay between initiation of death-process and actual death. This provides an ample oppertunity to cleverly escape. Clever escapes are known to be a strong point of batman-like superheros

[02:55:00.0000] <Dashiva>
We didn't become supervillains by following the rules and playing safe

[02:55:01.0000] <Philip`>
On the other hand, slow killing processes mean you can film it and sell the distribution rights for a lot of money

[02:56:00.0000] <roc>
I would like to make a series of very short films. Each one would be based on the opening sequence of an action movie, but showing what happen in real life.

[02:57:00.0000] <roc>
For example: hero runs from enemies, hero ducks behind cover, hero breaks cover, hero gets shot in the head

[02:58:00.0000] <Philip`>
These so-called "entertainment" shows are part of a plot by an evil genius to set the public's expectations in such situations, and when he captures the real superhero he will shock the world by demonstrating that his absurd plans actually work in practice when nobody believed they ever would

[02:58:01.0000] <roc>
Hero notices bomb in room, hero leaps out of window, hero breaks neck

[02:59:00.0000] <jgraham>
roc: If they were shot-by-shot remakes of well knowwn action movies I would watch that for sure

[02:59:01.0000] <jgraham>
Oh and assuming they were sufficiently funny

[02:59:02.0000] <jgraham>
But I don't see how they could fail to be 

[03:00:00.0000] <Dashiva>
You'd need a good sound track

[03:01:00.0000] <Philip`>
Why do movies often have the hero run across a busy road and all the cars honk and swerve, and the hero never gets run over?

[03:02:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Because otherwise the hero would have to be a slow runner to let the enemy escape

[03:03:00.0000] <Hixie>
it would be pretty funny to remake action movies from the start, stopping at the first point where the hero dies or is incapacitated

[03:03:01.0000] <Hixie>
many wouldn't last 2 seconds

[03:03:02.0000] <Hixie>
from what i hear the latest indiana jones is like that -- movie starts, character gets nuked. story ends.

[03:03:03.0000] <Hixie>
along with its franchise.

[03:04:00.0000] <roc>
actually he would have died several times before reaching the nuke bit

[03:04:01.0000] <Philip`>
You could still tell the story in flashbacks, so it wouldn't necessarily be a bad movie

[03:04:02.0000] <Hixie>
roc: ah. haven't seen it. good to know.

[03:06:00.0000] <Philip`>
(like that Monkey Island game where you start hanging on a rope over the edge of a giant hole, and someone comes along and you spend most of the game explaining how you ended up in that predicament, and then the rope snaps)

[03:07:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Then you spend 10 years arguing about whether what happens after you fall down is part of canon or not

[03:08:00.0000] <zcorpan>
/me adds table:before { content:attr(summary); display:table-caption } to his user style sheet

[03:13:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me likes Hot Fuzz as kind of an action film parody, though it doesn't bother too much with realism

[03:13:01.0000] <didymos>
Philip`, I'd say it decidedly doesn't bother with realism :)

[03:13:02.0000] <roc>
LAST ACTION HERO actually attempted this

[03:13:03.0000] <roc>
I appear to be the only person in the world who likes that movie

[03:13:04.0000] <Dashiva>
I liked the part where the villain shoots a guy and is surprised there are no cops around after five minutes

[03:13:05.0000] <jgraham>
"If you wanna be a big cop in a small town fuck off to the model village"

[03:13:06.0000] <jgraham>
/me liked Hot Fuzz too

[03:21:00.0000] <Philip`>
I don't remember model villages being a feature of any other movie I've seen

[03:21:01.0000] <Philip`>
particularly not for the climactic fight scene

[03:41:00.0000] <jgraham>
Right but Stevef seemed to be implying that it was a bad dataset. But mere non-randomness is not a useful criterion

[03:43:00.0000] <Philip`>
Datasets are only good or bad to the extent that they support conclusions you might draw from them

[03:43:01.0000] <jgraham>
Depends what you mean "support" and "want"

[03:44:00.0000] <Philip`>
and we don't have any datasets that can support precise conclusions about "average sites" or "most sites" etc (since we don't even know what those terms mean)

[03:44:01.0000] <Philip`>
so we just have to avoid concluding such things

[03:44:02.0000] <Philip`>
but it's easy to support conclusions like "there exists at least this number of sites with this property"

[03:45:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: How does it depend on what I mean by "want", when I never used that word? :-)

[03:46:00.0000] <jgraham>
Ah, I misread "might" as "want to" somehow ;)

[03:48:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan: the heuristic for layout tables that i thought of the other day is "table has no borders"

[03:49:00.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: Have you seen the Mozilla code for this?

[03:49:01.0000] <Hixie>
code for what?

[03:49:02.0000] <jgraham>
layout-tables-heuristics

[03:49:03.0000] <Hixie>
there is code for it?

[03:49:04.0000] <Hixie>
what does it do?

[03:50:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/accessible/src/html/nsHTMLTableAccessible.cpp#1029

[03:50:01.0000] <jgraham>
IIRC it thinks that anything with <th> is a data table, anything with 1 column is a layout table, things with nested tables are (probably?) layout tables, things wwith no borders are probably layout tables and things with > 5 columns are data tables

[03:50:02.0000] <jgraham>
It's kinda complex

[03:51:00.0000] <jgraham>
And I would be against specifying anything to distinguish layout tables and data tables at this stage

[03:51:01.0000] <Hixie>
yes me too

[03:52:00.0000] <Hixie>
i'd be interested in seeing what the comparison was of that algorithm vs just checking for no borders anywhere in the table

[03:54:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: what about tables like the doctype table in http://hsivonen.iki.fi/new-design/ ?

[03:54:01.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: speaking of the doctype table, updates regarding various opera versions are on my mental todo list. sorry about the delay.

[03:55:00.0000] <Lachy>
In that whole <canvas> accessibility thread on public-html, were there any actual solid proposals for how to address the problem? So far I've only seen arguments about what the problem is and I'm just over half way through the thread.

[03:55:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Lachy: perhaps I should post one, but I've been trying to avoid the thread

[03:56:00.0000] <jgraham>
Lachy: I think there is some vauge suggestion of providing a DOM-accessability api interface

[03:56:01.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: don't we have one: a tree of divs with ARIA stuff on them

[03:56:02.0000] <Philip`>
Lachy: If I remember correctly, the only specific proposals were to expose the drawText strings to AT somehow, and to add a pushAnnotation() method that does something to indicate to AT what's being drawn

[03:56:03.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: Doesn't meet the bespin usecase afaict

[03:57:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: the reason against that I can see is that the DOM may be slower than a novel tree

[03:57:01.0000] <Philip`>
but those were pretty vague

[03:57:02.0000] <Philip`>
and I pointed out various problems that make extracting drawText strings very difficult in typical canvas uses

[03:57:03.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: for perf or for other reason?

[03:57:04.0000] <jgraham>
For performace with large files 

[03:58:00.0000] <Lachy>
ah, yeah, I remember those vague suggestions of DOM Accessibility APIs

[03:58:01.0000] <Lachy>
but I think I will ignore the rest of that thread for now and move onto something more productive.

[04:00:00.0000] <jgraham>
(AFAICT the constraint on bespin is "can't build a DOM tree for all text in the buffer", so maybe it would be possible to do better by dynamically building a DOM just for the visible text or something)

[04:00:01.0000] <roc>
Hixie: I've seen a fair few data tables that just used backgrounds for styling

[04:01:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me guesses annevankesteren.nl and html5.org are on the same failing Dreamhost VM

[04:02:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: does the concept of not having an accessible tree for the whole document work for VoiceOver and Orca?

[04:02:01.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: funky

[04:02:02.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: No idea

[04:02:03.0000] <Hixie>
roc: oh well

[04:02:04.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: is "funky" good or bad here?

[04:02:05.0000] <Hixie>
neither :-)

[04:03:00.0000] <hsivonen>
ok.

[04:03:01.0000] <Hixie>
unconventional and striking

[04:04:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: It's not clear that they can't build a DOM tree; the problem may be more to do with layout/rendering of the DOM tree

[04:05:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: That's true, I guess. 

[04:07:00.0000] <roc>
it seems like it should be possible to do what they want with the DOM, with enough engine work

[04:07:01.0000] <roc>
but there are closely related problems that aren't really possible

[04:07:02.0000] <roc>
like "virtual" tree rows

[04:08:00.0000] <roc>
where you have some underlying data model and you want to render complex content for items in the model

[04:09:00.0000] <roc>
creating the complex content for all items in the model is arbitrarily expensive

[04:10:00.0000] <roc>
so you end up creating it on the fly in clumsy, error-prone ways

[04:10:01.0000] <roc>
or building some kind of custom renderer

[04:11:00.0000] <roc>
I'm not aware of anyone having developed a really great solution to this problem

[04:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/health/011800hth-behavior-incompetents.html

[04:12:01.0000] <Hixie>
well that explains a lot

[04:13:00.0000] <roc>
there are lots of "tree control" widgets that provide a limited set of renderings for arbitrary models with great performance

[04:13:01.0000] <roc>
and there are template solutions that provide flexible rendering with crappy performance

[04:14:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: the paper is http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf

[04:14:01.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: I thought it had already been mentioned here

[04:15:00.0000] <Hixie>
possible, i don't always read everything y'all say :-)

[04:15:01.0000] <roc>
seems like if we just tried a bit harder we could get some kind of template system with great performance

[04:15:02.0000] <jgraham>
/me also remembers hearing about that before

[04:17:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok well i guess is should go to bed

[04:17:01.0000] <Hixie>
nn

[04:17:02.0000] <roc>
me too

[04:17:03.0000] <Hixie>
you're on the other side of the planet!

[04:17:04.0000] <Hixie>
we should NOT be in the same circadion cycle

[04:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
circadian even

[04:18:01.0000] <jgraham>
Hixie: I think you're the one with the weird sleep patterns :)

[04:18:02.0000] <roc>
oh, you're in Europe?

[04:18:03.0000] <Hixie>
jgraham: can't argue that one

[04:18:04.0000] <Hixie>
roc: nah, california. we're not really that far away.

[04:18:05.0000] <roc>
yeah

[04:18:06.0000] <roc>
just over the water

[04:18:07.0000] <Hixie>
but you're on the other side of typical maps

[04:18:08.0000] <Hixie>
so as far as i'm concerned that's the Other Side of the Planet!

[04:19:00.0000] <Hixie>
anyway

[04:19:01.0000] <Hixie>
nn

[04:21:00.0000] <zcorpan>
ok i've now looked at about 100 pages from http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/pages/tagattr/table/summary and not found a single data table with summary (let alone a useful summary)

[04:39:00.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, in the latest Firefox 3.1 beta, the script that shows the floating status box seems to be causing an infinite loop. I haven't tried the latest trunk yet.

[04:50:00.0000] <Philip`>
zcorpan: If http://philip.html5.org/data/table-summary-gov.txt wasn't 404 then it would probably be a list of pages slightly more likely to have decent summaries

[04:52:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://google.com/search?q=cache:http://philip.html5.org/data/table-summary-gov.txt

[05:02:00.0000] <jgraham>
It's not quite clear why p(summary is useful|summary & table is data table) should be higher for deep content pages

[05:02:01.0000] <jgraham>
Since front pages tend to get more attention from designers, consultants etc.

[05:02:02.0000] <jgraham>
But maybe that is not what you meant

[05:02:03.0000] <Philip`>
Designers, consultants etc are likely to suggest not putting complex data tables on your front page

[05:02:04.0000] <jgraham>
Right, I agree that there may be fewer (complex) tables on those pages. I'm not sure you can infer anything about the likely quality of any summary though

[05:02:05.0000] <Philip`>
I was intending to refer to p(page contains a useful summary | page contains a summary), and I'm assuming p(summary is useful | data table) > p(summary is useful | layout table), and assuming p(data table) is lower on front pages

[05:02:06.0000] <Philip`>
so looking at n front pages with a summary is likely to result in a higher proportion of layout tables, and hence a lower proportion of useful summaries, than looking at n deep content pages

[05:02:07.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: That seems reasonable

[05:11:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me tries producing a less rubbish list of summary values

[05:11:01.0000] <Philip`>
s/less/marginally less/

[05:13:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: How?

[05:13:01.0000] <hsivonen>
whoa! a lot of summary email while I was looking away from the email app

[05:14:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: By not basing it on an ancient list of pages scraped from Yahoo search results

[05:14:01.0000] <Philip`>
and by counting domains rather than pages

[05:18:00.0000] <jgraham>
Where are you getting the data from?

[05:19:00.0000] <Philip`>
From the internets

[05:20:00.0000] <jgraham>
Ah, good start. Waiting for extraterrestrial beings to communicate with earth in HTML format would have been a worse strategy, for example.

[05:26:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me wonders if jgraham was intending a more specific question

[05:28:00.0000] <jgraham>
I suppose I might have meant "how are you selecting pages on the internet to use when looking for data" or something

[05:29:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Philip`: it seems most of the top few that i looked at of that list have summary="Table for formatting purposes"

[05:29:01.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Ah - just the same dmoz.org list I've always been using

[05:30:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: Does dmoz.org not have roghly the same front-page bias?

[05:30:01.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: It has some front-page bias, but I don't know if it's more or less

[05:31:00.0000] <Philip`>
(I would guess somewhat less than the other list, which mostly came from Yahoo search results for queries like "a" and "the")

[05:33:00.0000] <jgraham>
Would a search for a term like "table below" work any better?

[05:35:00.0000] <zcorpan>
from the gov list, i found 2 or 3 pages that had useful summary and the rest were either repeating a heading or were "for layout"

[05:36:00.0000] <jgraham>
I guess that could introduce subtle biases since it would mean that the table was being discussed in the body of the text

[05:46:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/summary-20090226.html - it's a bit boring really

[05:46:01.0000] <Philip`>
Oh, html5.org is back, I should have uploaded it there instead

[05:48:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me wonders why cocoa apps go crazy when another cocoa app being debugged dies

[05:48:01.0000] <Philip`>
/me is getting quite good at writing pages that turn out to be valid when he first runs a validator on them

[05:49:00.0000] <hsivonen>
garbage collectors are wonderful things for productivity

[05:50:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me just finished a long hunt for a premature memory release in C++

[05:50:01.0000] <Philip`>
Except when you're trying to optimise your program's memory usage and have to reverse-engineer and fight against the GC, I guess

[05:50:02.0000] <Philip`>
Valgrind makes memory allocation errors much less painful :-)

[05:51:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me thinks the latest version even tells you what line of code freed a piece of memory that you're using after it was freed

[05:51:01.0000] <hsivonen>
woohoo! my innerHTML setter no longer crashes

[05:54:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Did Hixie just appeal to the expertise of markp on public-html?

[05:58:00.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: Yeah, that seemed a bit weak. 

[06:17:00.0000] <zcorpan>
http://livedom.validator.nu/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Csvg%3E%3Cdesc%3E%3Cmath%3E%3Cb%3E

[06:20:00.0000] <zcorpan>
is the <b> escaping too far?

[06:23:00.0000] <zcorpan>
Hixie: ^

[06:30:00.0000] <hsivonen>
interesting case. my impl. is per spec, though

[07:29:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: I observe that not dropping foster parented stuff on the floor when parent gone adds a third node operand to the tree operations that an HTML5 tree builder can generate

[07:30:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: that is, nsHtml5TreeOperation is bloated by one nsCOMPtr

[07:44:00.0000] <rubys>
The q element is "being considered for removal"?

[07:48:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me needs some way of properly sorting people's names in Python

[07:48:01.0000] <jgraham>
rubys: I think that is wrong. Although I do remember arguning that <q> is mostly useless. Or was that some other element...

[07:48:02.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: Define "properly"

[07:49:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: Deals with people like Anne

[07:50:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: That's not a definition

[07:50:01.0000] <hsivonen>
gsnedders: please let me know if you find you how Danish names are sorted by surname

[07:50:02.0000] <gsnedders>
/me headdesks

[07:50:03.0000] <hsivonen>
gsnedders: you could be really radical and sort by the whole name like Hixie does

[07:50:04.0000] <hsivonen>
s/find you/find out/

[07:51:00.0000] <rubys>
Python even has builtin support for sorting by whole names

[07:51:01.0000] <didymos>
hsivonen, maybe I can be of assistance regarding the Danish names -- what are you uncertain about?

[07:52:00.0000] <hsivonen>
didymos: if you have an RFC author like Henrik Frystyk Nielsen, do you sort by N or F if your document is in English and sorted by surname?

[07:53:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: Wikipedia claims "Capturing this rule in a computer collation algorithm is difficult, and simple attempts will necessarily fail"

[07:53:01.0000] <gsnedders>
rubys: Where?

[07:53:02.0000] <jgraham>
/me guesses rubys means sort()

[07:53:03.0000] <didymos>
hsivonen, I'd sort it by the F -- but to get it exactly right, you'd have to know whether 'Frystyk' is a middle name or surname

[07:53:04.0000] <gsnedders>
Oh, for whole names

[07:53:05.0000] <gsnedders>
/me is being dumb

[07:54:00.0000] <didymos>
hsivonen, but in this case I'm whiling to take a guess and says it's part of his surname

[07:54:01.0000] <didymos>
wiling*

[07:54:02.0000] <hsivonen>
didymos: but Danes tend to have names that are between the first name and the last name but don't have the same middle name semantic that e.g. English, Finnish and Swedish middle names have, AFAIK

[07:54:03.0000] <Philip`>
/me assumes the need to "take a guess" is what makes it hard to capture the rules in a computer collation algorithm :-)

[07:56:00.0000] <didymos>
Philip`, certainly, but you can often hear on a name, whether it's considered a legal middle- or surname

[07:56:01.0000] <hsivonen>
didymos: i.e. a middle name that is more surnameish that second given nameish

[07:56:02.0000] <didymos>
but I certainly see your point

[07:56:03.0000] <didymos>
hsivonen, exactly

[07:56:04.0000] <didymos>
and that's why I'm willing to guess -- Frystyk is not a Danish given name

[07:58:00.0000] <hsivonen>
didymos: should be fun for gsnedders to implement in software :-)

[07:58:01.0000] <didymos>
hsivonen, yup -- I guess you would have to have the list

[07:58:02.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: Why implement it in software, rather than getting a human to specify the ordering?

[07:58:03.0000] <didymos>
and even then, you wouldn't be 100%

[07:59:00.0000] <gsnedders>
didymos: Humans are lazy

[07:59:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`, rather

[07:59:02.0000] <didymos>
gsnedders, :)

[07:59:03.0000] <didymos>
oh well, I'm off -- good luck gsnedders and hsivonen 

[07:59:04.0000] <gsnedders>
It's only me

[08:00:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I've dodged the issue by not trying to sort or transpose people's names in bibliography

[08:02:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me wonders if hCard supports surnameish but optional middle names these days

[08:02:01.0000] <hsivonen>
IIRC, it didn't a couple of years ago

[08:05:00.0000] <gsnedders>
hsivonen: What do you mean?

[08:05:01.0000] <Philip`>
Hmm, is hobgoblin down again? It was fine a little while ago, but now it doesn't respond

[08:06:00.0000] <Philip`>
Anyway: http://fonts.philip.html5.org/ now has more fonts and fewer bugs, since I finally uploaded the most recent code

[08:06:01.0000] <gsnedders>
hsivonen: It supports them fine when you explicitly mark each first/middle/sur- name

[08:07:00.0000] <hsivonen>
gsnedders: my point is that e.g. Danish surnameish middle names are semantically different from English-oriented "middle names", and this semantic distinction is not captured

[08:07:01.0000] <hsivonen>
gsnedders: use case: sorting

[08:08:00.0000] <gsnedders>
It's captured as much as it is in vCard :P

[08:08:01.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: Just make authors mark which name-component they expect it to be sorted by

[08:08:02.0000] <jgraham>
That satisfys WWLD

[08:08:03.0000] <jgraham>
(or rather, in this case, WWBD)

[08:08:04.0000] <gsnedders>
B?

[08:08:05.0000] <jgraham>
Bibtex

[08:08:06.0000] <Philip`>
L?

[08:08:07.0000] <gsnedders>
Ahj

[08:08:08.0000] <Philip`>
Oh

[08:08:09.0000] <gsnedders>
*Ah

[08:09:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: seems like a failure for semantics :-)

[08:54:00.0000] <Philip`>
http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/archive/2006/04/07/570798.aspx - apparently people really like making text bold

[08:55:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Philip`: with <strong>?

[08:56:00.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: Heh Save is number 2. That says something about how much users truct Word...

[08:56:01.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: No, with the button that says "B" on it

[08:56:02.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: hsivonen?

[08:56:03.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: I do that with everything though

[08:56:04.0000] <jgraham>
Er, I was going to say something to hsivonen earlier and it was still on my input line

[08:57:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: Get lightroom

[08:57:01.0000] <jgraham>
No save

[08:57:02.0000] <gsnedders>
/me needs to do that

[08:57:03.0000] <jgraham>
also: 100% pure awesomeness

[08:57:04.0000] <gsnedders>
The issue is getting it at edu cost is such a pain and a lot of effort

[08:58:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: It was pretty easy for me. Just had to scn+email my student ID

[08:58:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Actually, that isn't the issue.

[08:58:02.0000] <gsnedders>
The fact is I'm lazy

[08:58:03.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: I don't remember it being so easy when I got PS

[08:59:00.0000] <jgraham>
In fact I think there might be a eb form

[08:59:01.0000] <gsnedders>
eb?

[08:59:02.0000] <jgraham>
/me has to go now

[08:59:03.0000] <jgraham>
web

[08:59:04.0000] <jgraham>
/me is standing up and typing

[08:59:05.0000] <gsnedders>
adios

[09:26:00.0000] <rubys>
hixie: ping?

[10:05:00.0000] <rubys>
For hixie when he gets back: your name has been added to http://esw.w3.org/topic/IETF_HTML5_Meeting_March_2009 ; if you disagree, please either let me know or simply remove it

[10:14:00.0000] <annevk2>
from Opera Yngve will likely be there since he's going to the IETF stuff anyway

[10:15:00.0000] <annevk2>
I might want to join some IRC discussion channel if feasible to comment on CORS, but I don't expect it to matter much

[10:17:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Oh, I was going to email Yngve

[10:17:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me is reminded

[11:54:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me stabs lxml's data structure

[11:56:00.0000] <gsnedders>
DOM would be nice for once! :'(

[14:45:00.0000] <fantasai>
Is there a fragment identifier syntax defined for bitmap images?

[14:45:01.0000] <fantasai>
I haven't found one, but I figured someone here would be more likely to know for sure.

[14:50:00.0000] <roc>
what do you mean? like <a href="foo.png#abc">?

[14:51:00.0000] <fantasai>
roc: yeah

[14:52:00.0000] <fantasai>
roc: although probably for PNG you'd want something like <a href="foo.png#slice(40,50,20,100)">

[14:52:01.0000] <roc>
I've never heard of such a thing

[14:52:02.0000] <nessy>
the W3C media fragments working group is looking at specifying something like this - mostly for video and audio, but it would be applicable to images that support fragment naming

[14:52:03.0000] <roc>
I see

[14:52:04.0000] <roc>
I guess that would be nice for image tiling

[14:52:05.0000] <fantasai>
image sprites

[14:53:00.0000] <roc>
sprites I meant

[14:53:01.0000] <fantasai>
yeah

[14:53:02.0000] <roc>
although personally I'd rather just promulgate jar:

[14:53:03.0000] <nessy>
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/Main_Page

[14:53:04.0000] <nessy>
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/Syntax

[14:54:00.0000] <karlcow>
fantasai: nope. Video activity is working on something for video.

[14:54:01.0000] <karlcow>
for png none

[14:54:02.0000] <karlcow>
for webcgm I think yes

[14:55:00.0000] <nessy>
the proposed sprite syntax is xywh = [unit " : "] int " , " int " , " int " , " int 

[14:55:01.0000] <fantasai>
xywh?

[14:55:02.0000] <nessy>
for example foo.png#xywh=40,50,20,100

[14:55:03.0000] <karlcow>
2.3.6 Hyperlinling http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-WebCGM/REC-02-CGM-Concepts.html#webcgm_2_3   

[14:55:04.0000] <fantasai>
oh

[14:55:05.0000] <karlcow>
png is not a web format unfortunately

[14:55:06.0000] <nessy>
xy defines the bottom left point

[14:55:07.0000] <nessy>
wh width and height

[14:55:08.0000] <fantasai>
right, right

[14:56:00.0000] <fantasai>
bottom left?

[14:56:01.0000] <fantasai>
why not the top left?

[14:56:02.0000] <nessy>
of the rectable to slice out

[14:56:03.0000] <fantasai>
yeah

[14:56:04.0000] <Hixie>
nessy: should i do anything with your whatwg account?

[14:56:05.0000] <fantasai>
/me thought image maps started at the top left

[14:56:06.0000] <nessy>
oh, sorry, I think you're right, it might be the top left

[14:56:07.0000] <fantasai>
/me hasn't looked at them in a long time, though

[14:56:08.0000] <nessy>
Hixie: yes, please - I just sent you an email about that :)

[14:57:00.0000] <Hixie>
ah, cool

[14:57:01.0000] <Hixie>
haven't caught up with e-mail yet

[14:57:02.0000] <nessy>
no worries - no rush

[14:57:03.0000] <nessy>
I have two threads to reply to :)

[14:57:04.0000] <karlcow>
for video http://www.w3.org/2008/Talks/26-video-plh/#%2814%29

[14:59:00.0000] <karlcow>
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/

[14:59:01.0000] <fantasai>
karlcow, nessy: So there's two different formats proposed for rectangles?

[14:59:02.0000] <fantasai>
xywh= and rect()

[15:01:00.0000] <john_fallows>
Hixie: just read the spec updates for SSE, thanks for adding the onerror attribute.

[15:01:01.0000] <Hixie>
pleasure

[15:01:02.0000] <Hixie>
i figured i'd do it at the same time as all the other changes

[15:01:03.0000] <john_fallows>
one point of clarification, is there now a change of behavior for the error scenarion?

[15:02:00.0000] <nessy>
fantasai: where did you see rect() ?

[15:02:01.0000] <john_fallows>
for example, before it seemed to imply that network or server error would silently abort future attempts to request the event stream

[15:02:02.0000] <karlcow>
fantasai: I don't know what they have chosen for video yet and if it has been definitely chosen.

[15:02:03.0000] <nessy>
I am part of the media fragments wg

[15:02:04.0000] <fantasai>
nessy: in the link karlcow sent

[15:02:05.0000] <john_fallows>
whereas now it seems to continuously retry, giving an opportunity in the error event listener to disconnect

[15:03:00.0000] <nessy>
we are preparing a WD right now, which should be ready for comments in a few weeks

[15:03:01.0000] <fantasai>
nessy: cool

[15:03:02.0000] <fantasai>
nessy: looking forward to it

[15:03:03.0000] <nessy>
fantasai: that WebCG document is rather old and it seems not being used anywhere

[15:03:04.0000] <Hixie>
john_fallows: that wasn't my intent; what makes it say it continually retries?

[15:03:05.0000] <nessy>
correct me if I'm wrong

[15:03:06.0000] <karlcow>
fantasai: nope the talk was to introduce the video activity

[15:03:07.0000] <fantasai>
nessy: the csswg would probably be interested

[15:03:08.0000] <karlcow>
nessy: you are right, there is webcgm 2

[15:04:00.0000] <fantasai>
nessy: because designers would like to place all their little graphics pieces in one file

[15:04:01.0000] <nessy>
hehe

[15:04:02.0000] <karlcow>
ah interesting. 

[15:04:03.0000] <nessy>
well, there are many groups that will want to comment

[15:04:04.0000] <karlcow>
I wish there was links from png too embedded into the format

[15:04:05.0000] <karlcow>
s/was/were/

[15:04:06.0000] <nessy>
that's why there will be a WD with input request

[15:05:00.0000] <nessy>
links from png ?

[15:05:01.0000] <john_fallows>
actually, i see it now, there is a clear distinction between "reset the connection" (with retry) and "fail the connection" (no retry), right?

[15:05:02.0000] <karlcow>
so from html -> to specific part of png.

[15:05:03.0000] <karlcow>
but also from png to somewhere in the web

[15:05:04.0000] <Hixie>
john_fallows: i've tried to make it even more crystal clear -- reload and tell me if you still think it retries :-)

[15:05:05.0000] <karlcow>
so png would really be a web format

[15:05:06.0000] <roc>
karlcow: imagemaps and SVG should really cover that

[15:05:07.0000] <nessy>
the URI scheme allows any document to point to a part of a png, including html

[15:05:08.0000] <fantasai>
nessy: also, the print industry would like the ability to slice images like that in XHTML

[15:05:09.0000] <nessy>
for outgoing links you have to change the file format :)

[15:05:10.0000] <karlcow>
roc: SVG is indeed a Web format

[15:06:00.0000] <fantasai>
nessy: for PNG and JPG

[15:06:01.0000] <fantasai>
nessy: so if you can specify xywh for any image/* type that'd be cool

[15:06:02.0000] <Hixie>
john_fallows: (change only visible on the single page copy for now)

[15:06:03.0000] <nessy>
image maps really are the only way

[15:06:04.0000] <karlcow>
nessy: yes

[15:06:05.0000] <roc>
we don't want to bloat a relatively simple format like PNG

[15:06:06.0000] <roc>
that way lies MNG

[15:07:00.0000] <john_fallows>
Hixie: looks good, thanks.

[15:07:01.0000] <roc>
/me glances around nervously

[15:07:02.0000] <fantasai>
heh

[15:07:03.0000] <nessy>
the challenge is: you can create a URL to a png or jpg or mpeg or ogg or anything that has a xywh and/or time offset it in, but you cannot guarantee that that URL will be resolved by the server or client

[15:07:04.0000] <Hixie>
john_fallows: no problem

[15:08:00.0000] <john_fallows>
Hixie: btw, in the spirit of whatwg naming conventions, perhaps call EventSource something like WebStream? :-)

[15:08:01.0000] <nessy>
the actual splicing will still need to be done by some software

[15:08:02.0000] <fantasai>
nessy: yeah, I guess that's the disadvantage there

[15:08:03.0000] <Hixie>
john_fallows: i was hoping for a better name... not sure WebStream is it, we have other plans for the concept of "streams"

[15:08:04.0000] <fantasai>
nessy: we can't use CSS's typical "fails to parse" fallback mechanism

[15:08:05.0000] <nessy>
all you can do is provide a scheme - then the conformant implementations can come over time

[15:09:00.0000] <john_fallows>
Hixie: really, what do you have in mind there?

[15:09:01.0000] <nessy>
fantasai: I think we're planning a scheme for making sure there is feedback on whether the URL resolved or not

[15:09:02.0000] <Hixie>
john_fallows: streams of video from one server plugged into a <video>, streams from a local camera plugged into an XHR to a server, or into a WebSocket to a server, that kind of thing

[15:09:03.0000] <nessy>
fantasai: so the fallback would be to return the full resource

[15:10:00.0000] <fantasai>
nessy: yeah, that wouldn't work well for CSS, since we'd want to trigger CSS's parse-time fallback system

[15:10:01.0000] <fantasai>
nessy: but we can think about that some more on our end :)

[15:11:00.0000] <fantasai>
nessy: I'm glad to hear someone's working on this

[15:12:00.0000] <john_fallows>
Hixie: i see, btw i didn't notice any maximum size on a WebSocket frame.  When the frame is large, it might be desirable to obtain the contents as a stream instead of a single fully allocated buffer.

[15:23:00.0000] <Hixie>
john_fallows: indeed

[15:50:00.0000] <Hixie>
rubys1: i tried reading the minutes, but saw nothing for me to do; let me know if i missed anything

[15:50:01.0000] <Hixie>
the minutes weren't exactly clear

[15:55:00.0000] <Hixie>
oops, wrong channel

[15:55:01.0000] <Hixie>
oh, sam isn't in the right channel

[15:55:02.0000] <Hixie>
oh well

[15:57:00.0000] <Hixie>
nessy: done

[15:58:00.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: Can I ask you for help with SPARQL?

[15:59:00.0000] <gsnedders>
Also, where would be a better place to ask generally (like, async.)?


2009-02-27
[16:02:00.0000] <karlcow>
gsnedders: the best places are #swig, then http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/, then you can ask me in private if you want. I can be slow to reply though sometimes :)

[16:03:00.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: #swig on irc.w3 I guess?

[16:05:00.0000] <smedero>
gsnedders: on freenode I believe

[16:05:01.0000] <karlcow>
on freenode

[16:06:00.0000] <gsnedders>
k

[16:06:01.0000] <gsnedders>
thx

[17:12:00.0000] <nessy>
Hixie: thanks a lot!

[17:12:01.0000] <Hixie>
np

[18:07:00.0000] <rubys>
hixie: no nothing for you to do, other than confirm your intent to attend the meeting in SF next month

[18:12:00.0000] <annevk2>
why exactly does <input type=image> not allow value=""?

[18:12:01.0000] <annevk2>
/me missed that

[18:12:02.0000] <annevk2>
apparently html5-diff does not mention it

[18:19:00.0000] <annevk2>
/me now vaguely recalls some debate

[18:54:00.0000] <annevk2>
so Opera does not use value=, Safari does

[18:54:01.0000] <annevk2>
no idea about other browsers

[19:14:00.0000] <annevk2>
i.e. <input type=image name=test value=test> becomes ?test.x=2&test.y=2&test=test

[20:16:00.0000] <annevk2>
I guess the fact that validator.nu is less than helpful for <input type=text alt=test> is already known?

[20:29:00.0000] <annevk2>
Hixie, I would remind you that EventSource.URL should return an absolute URL

[20:30:00.0000] <annevk2>
Hixie, as a bonus for being so late (I would do it after 10 minutes I believe) I'll add that WebSocket.URL has the same issue

[20:30:01.0000] <annevk2>
nice copy & paste job

[20:31:00.0000] <annevk2>
Hixie, it's sort of tempting to suggest they should have a common base interface

[20:41:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah i considered that

[20:42:00.0000] <Hixie>
WebSocket.URL doesn't have to return an absolute one

[20:42:01.0000] <Hixie>
because the constructor throws if the URL isn't absolute

[20:42:02.0000] <Hixie>
anyway i filed a bug

[20:42:03.0000] <Hixie>
thanks

[21:15:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
Hixie: are you planning to add accesskey to the Rendering section?

[21:21:00.0000] <annevk2>
ah, fair point about WebSocket.URL

[21:38:00.0000] <Hixie>
MikeSmith: i don't know what to do about accesskey

[21:40:00.0000] <Hixie>
fundamentally it doesn't work

[21:40:01.0000] <Hixie>
but we need _something_

[21:40:02.0000] <MikeSmith>
yeah, seems like

[21:42:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
even documenting it to say "this doesn't work interoperably, but here's what the behavior is in some contexts"

[21:43:00.0000] <Hixie>
that's the minimum we'll do, yeah

[21:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
i was hoping for better though

[21:43:02.0000] <Hixie>
(that'll be in the obsolete apis section at some point)

[21:43:03.0000] <MikeSmith>
I see

[21:43:04.0000] <MikeSmith>
we definitely do still need some replacement for it that actually works 

[21:43:05.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[21:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
i have a folder with 52 e-mails about it

[21:44:01.0000] <Hixie>
eta april

[21:49:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
OK

[22:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
writing author and UA criteria for DOM APIs poses an interesting problem

[22:12:01.0000] <Hixie>
i want it to be possible to hide the UA requirements

[22:12:02.0000] <Hixie>
but that means that DOM requirements end up reading as:

[22:13:00.0000] <Hixie>
 The /foo/ attribute returns the foo. On getting, the user agent must return the foo.

[22:13:01.0000] <Hixie>
which sounds stupid.

[22:13:02.0000] <Hixie>
I wonder how to address this problem.

[22:34:00.0000] <annevk2>
that's not an author criteria though

[22:35:00.0000] <annevk2>
that's just explaining how it works

[22:45:00.0000] <annevk2>
hmm, cool, HTML5 doesn't create CDATASection nodes for text/html

[22:47:00.0000] <Hixie>
well we need something that tells the author how it works, i mean, i can't just remove the UA criteria leaving just the IDL

[22:47:01.0000] <Hixie>
or can we?

[22:51:00.0000] <annevk2>
no, but an introduction section that explains all methods should suffice

[22:52:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
If the UA criteria are accurately expressed by the IDL, seems like the prose could actually be removed.

[22:52:01.0000] <MikeSmith>
nm, annevk2 just clarified

[22:53:00.0000] <annevk2>
it might be a lot of work, but both an author and UA section for each IDL would be ideal, I think

[22:53:01.0000] <annevk2>
with the same pedantic detail as writing versus parsing HTML

[23:01:00.0000] <hsivonen>
In the future, I want to run a benchmark to see if dropping foster-parented stuff on the floor if parent gone would speed up the parser by making tree operation objects smaller by 25%

[23:08:00.0000] <annevk2>
sounds like it would use less memory

[23:13:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk2: using less memory for the operation queue would be the obvious effect. the execution speed effect off a more tightly packed queue and one fewer smart pointers to zero on each event is less obvious

[23:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk2: it's not really clear to me what the author side would say

[23:17:00.0000] <annevk2>
it would say what the effect would of invoking the method or getting/setting an attribute

[23:17:01.0000] <annevk2>
would be*

[23:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
hmm

[23:21:00.0000] <annevk2>
how else would authors know whether it throws an exception for instance?

[23:21:01.0000] <annevk2>
and when it would throw, etc.

[23:28:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
wording could be "Set the foo attribute to..."

[23:28:01.0000] <MikeSmith>
hmm, or does RFC 2119 discourage that?

[23:29:00.0000] <hsivonen>
Hixie: is it bad if authors see that a setter must set and a getter must get instead of seeing that a setter sets and a getter gets?

[23:32:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk2: generally exceptions only happen when the input is invalid

[23:34:00.0000] <annevk2>
e.g. how does an author know how to use WebSocket()?

[23:35:00.0000] <Hixie>
hsivonen: not sure what you mean?

[23:35:01.0000] <Hixie>
annevk2: the intro section

[23:35:02.0000] <annevk2>
or that document.domain cannot be set to www.example.org after it has been set to example.org

[23:35:03.0000] <Hixie>
annevk2: yeah, dunno

[23:35:04.0000] <Hixie>
an intro paragraph i guess

[23:36:00.0000] <annevk2>
Hixie, or the canvas 2D interface

[23:36:01.0000] <Hixie>
that one's gonna be tough

[23:36:02.0000] <annevk2>
I guess that intro paragraph is the authoring section I'm talking about

[23:37:00.0000] <annevk2>
I see intro more as explaining what the feature is for

[23:38:00.0000] <hsivonen>
wow. http://code.google.com/p/doctype/wiki/ArticleHereComesTheSun

[23:50:00.0000] <roc>
hsivonen: fortunately that is going away

[23:57:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/gyuque/

[00:02:00.0000] <hsivonen>
MikeSmith: very cool. Too bad anti-aliasing in the cloth demo in Firefox antialiases against the black background leaving black lines in the ceiling

[00:03:00.0000] <hsivonen>
the problem is not visible in the Chrome screenshot, but then Chrome cheats and doesn't do AA

[00:05:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I wonder if the issue could be remedied by multiplying the canvas backing buffer dimensions by an integer, telling canvas to turn AA off upon draw to the backing buffer and then doing a bicubic downsample for display

[00:06:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
hsivonen: gyuque is the same guy who put together the reflow demos for the last Mozialla 24

[00:06:01.0000] <MikeSmith>
dunno if you saw those

[00:06:02.0000] <hsivonen>
/me has no idea how seamless AA is done properly in 3D accelerators

[00:06:03.0000] <hsivonen>
MikeSmith: do you mean the ones that visually annotated wikipedia reflow?

[00:07:00.0000] <MikeSmith>
yeah, that was one of them

[00:11:00.0000] <roc>
hsivonen: they use multi-sampling, i.e., roughly what you describe

[00:16:00.0000] <hsivonen>
roc: in that case, perhaps it would be useful to be able to request a high-res backing buffer without AA in the buffer itself for canvas

[00:16:01.0000] <roc>
it's not clear that's really what you want for a software renderer

[00:17:00.0000] <hsivonen>
too slow?

[00:17:01.0000] <roc>
maybe

[01:00:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me sees public-html email backlog since 19:00Z last night, cries

[01:02:00.0000] <hsivonen>
tantek: you asked earlier if I had questions about XMDP. What should microformat consuming software do with XMDP profiles?

[01:02:01.0000] <tantek>
short answer is - build a dictionary

[01:02:02.0000] <hsivonen>
tantek: do they in practice?

[01:03:00.0000] <tantek>
longer answer will take too long at this hour for me I'm afraid, I will have to take your question and get back to you (probably with a wiki page)

[01:03:01.0000] <hsivonen>
tantek: ok. thanks

[01:03:02.0000] <tantek>
in practice they haven't needed to no.

[01:03:03.0000] <tantek>
but parsers *could* parse XMDP profiles, create a dictionary of terms (each with unique URI from the XMDP) and then have fully URI qualified terms

[01:04:00.0000] <tantek>
like other semantic techniques that use URI qualified terms :)

[01:04:01.0000] <hsivonen>
tantek: only if people actually used XMDP profiles all the time they use microformats

[01:04:02.0000] <tantek>
this was a deliberate design decision on my part, so one could define and use microformats, and have them be based in URIs

[01:05:00.0000] <tantek>
hsivonen, the 15-years-ago-parallel to that statement is: only if people actually used DOCTYPES all the time they use HTML.

[01:06:00.0000] <hsivonen>
tantek: was basing them in URIs a feature for microformats themselves or is it a feature for compatibility with other semantic technology communities?

[01:06:01.0000] <jgraham>
It seems that that case is a bit different because the use of doctypes has been driven by a desire to enable backwards-incompatible features in UAs

[01:06:02.0000] <tantek>
I created XMDP intentionally so that microformats always would/could have compatibility with the semantic technologies being used at the time.

[01:07:00.0000] <hsivonen>
tantek: ok. Do you see such compatibility still as a necessary thing and XMDP as a good way to get the compatibility?

[01:08:00.0000] <tantek>
yes I see XMDP as a good way to get the compatibility

[01:08:01.0000] <tantek>
is the compatibility "necessary"? I think that is still up for debate, but while it is up for debate, I prefer taking the conservative path and at least continuing to *enable* the compatibility.

[01:09:00.0000] <hsivonen>
OK. (I'm inclined to disagree, since the compatibility relies on the author instead of being in the control of the consumer)

[01:09:01.0000] <hsivonen>
(that is, I'm inclined to disagree that XMDP is a good way to achieve the compatibility)

[01:10:00.0000] <tantek>
the problem is that such conclusions (in the absolute) rarely tend to be accurate or useful

[01:10:01.0000] <tantek>
the better way to think of it would be, what would be a *better* way to achieve the compatibility

[01:11:00.0000] <tantek>
with a solid (written and published on the web) alternative proposal or proposals

[01:11:01.0000] <hsivonen>
A better way would be to have a defined hFoo to RDF mapping for each hFoo.

[01:11:02.0000] <tantek>
the point is, with XMDP you don't need to redefine mappings for each microformat

[01:12:00.0000] <tantek>
with a URI for each term, you're already done

[01:12:01.0000] <tantek>
since all RDF needs is URIs for terms

[01:12:02.0000] <tantek>
e.g XFN rel="friend" is defined by http://gmpg.org/xfn/11#friend

[01:12:03.0000] <tantek>
etc.

[01:12:04.0000] <hsivonen>
ok, then my concrete proposal would be a single base URI for all microformats.org microformats

[01:13:00.0000] <hsivonen>
such that consumers can know the URI instead of having to rely on author participation to discover it

[01:13:01.0000] <tantek>
yes that is a very reasonable request, and in http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do I believe

[01:13:02.0000] <tantek>
just like W3C DTDs

[01:13:03.0000] <tantek>
the parallels are there

[01:13:04.0000] <tantek>
and with that I will bid you good night. i will take the task of writing a longer answer to your original question of "What should microformat consuming software do with XMDP profiles?"

[01:14:00.0000] <hsivonen>
because if I wanted to process hFoo in an RDF system, I'd want to be able to ingest all hFoo--not just those hFoo instances with RDF-friendly authors

[01:14:01.0000] <hsivonen>
tantek: thanks

[01:14:02.0000] <tantek>
thanks for your excellent questions.

[01:21:00.0000] <jgraham>
/me is scared by all the people syaing that proprietry heuristics for filtering out layout tables can be used as a justification for spec features known to break in the face of layout tables

[01:25:00.0000] <jgraham>
Particularly in the absence of any meaningful data about the mechanisms or accuracy of those heuristics

[01:27:00.0000] <Philip`>
It does suggest the possibility that maybe HTML5 should define some standard heuristics, and should gather meaningful data on its accuracy, and then could use that as a reason to pay less attention to abuse of attributes on layout tables

[01:28:00.0000] <hsivonen>
if there were standard heuristics, should validators perform the heuristics, too, and whine about non-empty summaries on what are deemed layout tables?

[01:28:01.0000] <jgraham>
I suspect the heuristics contain at least a component that depends on the computed style of the table, so it's hard to specify

[01:28:02.0000] <hsivonen>
ok.

[01:29:00.0000] <hsivonen>
I don't want HTML conformance to depend on computed style

[01:30:00.0000] <jgraham>
I wonder (and I hope Philip` or someone will tell me) if there is any meaningful way to use something like a neural network to perform automatic classification of tables into layout/non-layout with high accuracy, given an initial training set

[01:30:01.0000] <jgraham>
What I don't know is what you would use as inputs. 

[01:31:00.0000] <jgraham>
(an interesting consequence of that is that it would be effectively impossible to specify the lgorithm other than by "use this neural network")

[01:31:01.0000] <Philip`>
By "neural network" do you mean "magic box"? :-)

[01:31:02.0000] <jgraham>
*algorithm

[01:32:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: Well I mean "neural network" al;though that is rather close to "magic box", yes

[01:35:00.0000] <Philip`>
If you had a lot of training data and a large set of characteristics, I guess you could easily find which characteristics are correlated with data/layout tables, and then I guess any supervised learning algorithm would give you some kind of prediction function

[01:35:01.0000] <Philip`>
(I've no idea if neural nets would be better/worse than any other approach)

[01:36:00.0000] <Philip`>
(except that I think you really wouldn't want an algorithm in the spec to be a definition of a neural net)

[01:36:01.0000] <Philip`>
(just because it'd be clearly insane)

[01:36:02.0000] <jgraham>
Can the characteristics be boolean things? I had a vauge notion they had to be continuous variables?

[01:36:03.0000] <jgraham>
Maybe I should just FGI

[01:39:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Boolean variables are just continuous variables that only ever happen to be in one of two states :-)

[01:39:01.0000] <Philip`>
I can't think of any particularly fundamental difference

[01:40:00.0000] <jgraham>
You might not get convergence or something

[01:41:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: when the tryserver Minefield/HTML5 parsing builds crashed for you on Linux, did they work on the second run and only crashed on the first run?

[01:42:00.0000] <Philip`>
If I remember correctly (aided by Wikipedia), in simple neural nets you have a perceptron which applies a threshold function to a weighted some of its input values, to get a boolean output

[01:42:01.0000] <Philip`>
and then you connect a load of them together, and do some learning

[01:44:00.0000] <jgraham>
The wikipedia page on this does not reallyt take universal accessibillity to heart. It it hard to understand :)

[01:44:01.0000] <Philip`>
Wikipedia describes some condition for convergence which sounds it probably should sometimes be true even if all your inputs are boolean

[01:45:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Try http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_network

[01:45:01.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: But that is just wrong

[01:46:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: But it's accessible

[01:46:01.0000] <jgraham>
The truth? You cna't handle the truth

[01:53:00.0000] <jgraham>
So it seems like a viable project

[01:54:00.0000] <Philip`>
/me notes that he is not exactly an expert on AI

[01:54:01.0000] <jgraham>
I guess it would be interesting to do something like a principal component analysis on the result to see what the primary indicators of layout tables are

[01:54:02.0000] <Philip`>
(nor, indeed, on anything else)

[01:55:00.0000] <Philip`>
I did sit through two AI lecture courses, but decided pretty early on that I wasn't going to answer any of the exam questions about it :-)

[01:57:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Why do anything that complicated, rather than simply computing a table of probabilities like p(table is data table | given has property P) for all Ps you can think of and then looking for the extreme ones?

[01:57:01.0000] <Philip`>
s/given/table/

[01:58:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hmm, maybe the point is to find the independent characteristics, rather than "table has > 4 columns", "table has > 5 columns", "table has > 6 columns", ... all being high-probability cases

[02:04:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: Yes, I think that is the idea

[02:16:00.0000] <Philip`>
The hard part would be accurately classifying ten thousand tables to use as training data and for verification

[02:16:01.0000] <Philip`>
or maybe much more than that would be needed, given how high a proportion will be layout tables

[02:30:00.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: Sorry I missed your question earlier. No, they crashed any time the profile dialog was shown before the browser proper started

[02:30:01.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: ok. thanks

[02:30:02.0000] <hsivonen>
I'm still clueless when it comes to the reason of the crashes

[02:30:03.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: Doesn't seem too hard. It is generally pretty easy to classify the tables and it would parallelise easilly

[02:39:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: s/ten thousand/a million/ - now it's much harder :-)

[02:39:01.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: OK fair enough. But you're just guessing anyay

[02:39:02.0000] <jgraham>
*anyway

[02:40:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Indeed

[02:40:01.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Probably the main concern is that there would have to be enough data tables in the sample, which might mean the sample has to be huge

[02:41:00.0000] <jgraham>
Is there a command that is the opposite of diff?

[02:41:01.0000] <slaaya>
is this about rwifi

[02:41:02.0000] <Philip`>
(It's no good having a heuristic which says "given a table T, it is a layout table" even if it's right 99% of the time, because it's important that it's right for 99% of data tables too)

[02:41:03.0000] <slaaya>
?

[02:42:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: Like something that shows which lines are shared between files?

[02:42:01.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: Yes

[02:42:02.0000] <slaaya>
if i a connect a router to a tv atenna would it work

[02:42:03.0000] <slaaya>
to boost its signal?

[02:42:04.0000] <slaaya>
with dd-wrt 

[02:43:00.0000] <jgraham>
slaaya: This is almost certianly the wrong channel. What you suggest seems unlikely to work on general physical grounds through

[02:43:01.0000] <slaaya>
why though?

[02:43:02.0000] <slaaya>
if i a solder it the cable that goes to the tv atennna

[02:43:03.0000] <slaaya>
why would it not work?

[02:44:00.0000] <jgraham>
Because the design of antennae is wavelength-specific

[02:44:01.0000] <slaaya>
humm ok

[02:44:02.0000] <jgraham>
and the power output of the router is fixed

[02:44:03.0000] <slaaya>
so i cant just use antenna

[02:44:04.0000] <slaaya>
any

[02:44:05.0000] <slaaya>
its a vhf atenna

[02:44:06.0000] <slaaya>
i mean just using the metal as a booster in it

[02:45:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: diff -C99999 a b | grep '^ '

[02:46:00.0000] <jgraham>
Philip`: Ah, clever, thanks

[02:52:00.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: I consider it to be a disgusting hack, rather than clever

[03:02:00.0000] <jgraham>
Well, however you want to put it it seems to do something mildly useful

[03:02:01.0000] <Lachy>
Hixie, yt?

[03:55:00.0000] <Philip`>
Is it safe to use xml:base in XHTML?

[03:55:01.0000] <Philip`>
like, no browser is planning to remove support for it or anything?

[03:55:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
Philip`: does webkit support it?

[03:55:03.0000] <Philip`>
zcorpan_: Don't know

[03:56:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
i think it doesn't

[03:56:01.0000] <Philip`>
I suppose that's a bit of a pain

[04:43:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me tries to remember if he actually met danbri at TPAC

[04:43:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me met too many people to remember who half them are :P

[04:45:00.0000] <karlcow>
gsnedders: probably. He was at TPAC. Did you talk with him is different. ;) http://flickr.com/photos/bblfish/2290417713/

[04:45:01.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: I am aware he was there :P

[06:28:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me finds more and more mistakes with uncertainties in his physics project. yay.

[06:33:00.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: If it is any comfort, getting uncertainties calculations right is really really hard

[06:34:00.0000] <jgraham>
And then they are usually not htat  helpful because they don't tell you about systematic error

[06:34:01.0000] <gsnedders>
I've already concluded my results are useless because of the uncertainties, so adding more uncertainties on to it makes little difference

[06:35:00.0000] <karlcow>
:D

[06:36:00.0000] <gsnedders>
(And my previous physics teacher wondered why I was applying to do _theoretical_ physics.)

[06:37:00.0000] <jgraham>
There is a plot somewhere of the best-measured value of the speed of light against time. There are large steps, much bigger than the calculated error bars, corresponding to the development of new *techniques* to measure the speed of light

[06:38:00.0000] <karlcow>
:) calibration inferno

[06:38:01.0000] <Philip`>
jgraham: How do you know it's not due to the speed of light changing?

[06:39:00.0000] <karlcow>
/me wonders if Philip` is talking about the travel of light between two elements or the speed of light as a constant.

[06:40:00.0000] <Philip`>
Maybe light is scared of new measurement technologies, and slows down / speeds up a bit

[06:40:01.0000] <Lachy>
Philip`, because astronomers, astrophysists, or whatever, can look back in time by looking at distant stars and galaxies and make measurements

[06:40:02.0000] <karlcow>
Lachy: there are more steps doing that

[06:40:03.0000] <Lachy>
karlcow, of course.

[06:40:04.0000] <karlcow>
that I was calling calibration inferno

[06:40:05.0000] <Lachy>
I don't know what that means

[06:42:00.0000] <karlcow>
first you try to have a black body spectrum in laboratory, then closest bright stars not too hot with a similar temperature or close from your black body spectrum (to avoid interstellar dust), then more distant stars, then close galaxies, etc etc.

[06:42:01.0000] <karlcow>
each time in the process you had a layer of indirection and errors.

[06:43:00.0000] <karlcow>
but that's part of the game

[06:43:01.0000] <karlcow>
which is quite fun

[06:43:02.0000] <gsnedders>
/me maintains his position that astrophysics is crazy

[06:43:03.0000] <karlcow>
;)

[06:43:04.0000] <karlcow>
maybe it's why I like it 

[06:43:05.0000] <gsnedders>
hehe

[06:43:06.0000] <karlcow>
and I like the Web too ;)

[06:43:07.0000] <jgraham>
It's no more crazy than ECMAScript

[06:43:08.0000] <karlcow>
both crazy and imperfect

[06:44:00.0000] <jgraham>
Actually that probably isn't true

[06:45:00.0000] <Philip`>
Space is all fake anyway - it's just a painted dome with some lights hanging off it

[06:45:01.0000] <Philip`>
I've seen The Truman Show, I know how these things work

[06:45:02.0000] <Lachy>
LOL

[06:45:03.0000] <karlcow>
Philip`: that! is reasonable :)

[06:47:00.0000] <Lachy>
there was a nice simple video I saw on YouTube once that explained in laymens terms how we know the speed of light has remained constant.

[06:49:00.0000] <gsnedders>
hmm…

[06:49:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me is trying to search his tweets for " and failing

[06:55:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: couldn't rel be case-sensitive in general but various keywords are case insensitive?

[06:55:01.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: I guess triple generation could be case-sensitive

[06:57:00.0000] <hsivonen>
/me #ifdefs out XLink autolink and SVG onload in text/html

[06:57:01.0000] <annevk2>
zcorpan, yes, that would be possible

[06:57:02.0000] <jgraham>
Er, an attribute that is sometimes casesensitive seems like a whole heap of badness waiting to happen

[06:57:03.0000] <annevk2>
zcorpan, see e.g. xhr.open(method, ...)

[06:58:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: possibly, but a smaller heap than CURIEs

[06:58:01.0000] <annevk2>
it's not verry pretty, no

[06:58:02.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: Yes. But I can't see authors getting it right, ever

[06:59:00.0000] <hsivonen>
jgraham: can you see authors getting RDFa right?

[06:59:01.0000] <jgraham>
hsivonen: I think my fellings on that are well known :)

[06:59:02.0000] <jgraham>
*feelings

[06:59:03.0000] <annevk2>
nope

[06:59:04.0000] <jgraham>
annevk2: Was tha directed at hsivonen or me?

[07:00:00.0000] <annevk2>
I can't see authors getting RDFa right

[07:01:00.0000] <annevk2>
they already mess up <meta name=keywords>

[07:02:00.0000] <Philip`>
Authors don't need to know how to get RDFa right - they can just copy-and-paste from examples produced by experts (like with Creative Commons)

[07:02:01.0000] <annevk2>
deeply technical QA and developers at Opera don't get namespaces right

[07:02:02.0000] <annevk2>
in fact, we have a bug to this very day for several years and the only persons that have encountered it so far are in this channel

[07:02:03.0000] <karlcow>
a lot of possible jokes about opera just now ;) I will avoid

[07:03:00.0000] <annevk2>
hsivonen wasted a day of his life explaining the PFWG how namespaces work

[07:03:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Peh! Nobody uses Opera!

[07:03:02.0000] <annevk2>
it's just not gonna fly

[07:03:03.0000] <Philip`>
karlcow: In this channel, we prefer the jokes to be about namespaces

[07:04:00.0000] <Philip`>
and then we consider them to be facts rather than jokes :-)

[07:04:01.0000] <gsnedders>
annevk2: What if we put wings on it, and tell it to not fly to close to the sun or the sea, for fear of wrecking the wings?

[07:05:00.0000] <karlcow>
get the beat with names paces

[07:05:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me wonders how many people are confused by the latter half of that

[07:05:02.0000] <annevk2>
gsnedders, they did, it's called XML

[07:05:03.0000] <gsnedders>
reversed(list(references.finditer(node.text))) strikes me as kinda stupid

[07:06:00.0000] <karlcow>
Philip`: it is why it is not very funny ;) people are far too serious in this "real world" channel. 

[07:06:01.0000] <annevk2>
surely the world has heard of Icarus?

[07:06:02.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: Why?

[07:07:00.0000] <gsnedders>
jgraham: Having to cast it to list. I'd expect reversed to work on iterables, not sequences

[07:07:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me can see why it only works with sequences though

[07:07:02.0000] <Philip`>
A modern-day Icarus would likely come undone by flying into power cables, or being intercepted by fighter jets for straying into reserved airspace

[07:07:03.0000] <jgraham>
gsnedders: def count():n= 1; yield n; n+=1

[07:07:04.0000] <karlcow>
annevk2: Icarus, even if he falls, had a dream and it's why no matter the morality of the story, it is the dream which is pushing people :)))

[07:08:00.0000] <gsnedders>
The moral of Icarus: humans can't fly.

[07:08:01.0000] <karlcow>
serious people die and are forgotten, poets and dreamers survive.

[07:08:02.0000] <karlcow>
gsnedders: mwahaha

[07:09:00.0000] <jgraham>
karlcow: Not sure that is really true. Euler isn't noted for being a good party guest

[07:09:01.0000] <annevk2>
Einstein on the other hand... oh wait

[07:09:02.0000] <karlcow>
CQFD = Ce Qu'il Fallait Démontrer. jgraham is a serious person :) 

[07:10:00.0000] <karlcow>
http://z.about.com/d/physics/1/0/C/0/-/-/Einstein_tongue.jpg

[07:10:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Démontrer?

[07:10:02.0000] <hsivonen>
/me listened to http://www.cybercodeur.net/conferences/parisweb2006/22092006/hq/ogg/08-karl_dubost-enrichissons_nos_relations.ogg

[07:10:03.0000] <annevk2>
gsnedders, demonstrated afaict

[07:11:00.0000] <karlcow>
hsivonen: ahaha. I'm talking about women and train and encounters

[07:11:01.0000] <gsnedders>
/me has a reputation of being mad and a girl among his friends, so guesses he falls out of the category of being serious

[07:11:02.0000] <hsivonen>
it seems that the same microformat & RDFa & profile arguments have gone round and round for years

[07:11:03.0000] <gsnedders>
annevk2: Ah, that makes sense

[07:11:04.0000] <karlcow>
I'm also talking about infobesity

[07:11:05.0000] <zcorpan>
hsivonen: "* hsivonen #ifdefs out XLink autolink and SVG onload in text/html" - for gecko, for security?

[07:12:00.0000] <hsivonen>
zcorpan: in the Gecko version of the HTML5 parser, mainly for simplicity

[07:12:01.0000] <jgraham>
karlcow: Certianly I doubt I will be remembered.

[07:12:02.0000] <annevk2>
XLink autolink?

[07:13:00.0000] <annevk2>
and SVG onload is that the load event for each fricking element that is inserted? I don't really like that

[07:13:01.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk2: it seems that XLink has a feature where setting a couple of attributes stop the load and load a new URL in the browsing context

[07:13:02.0000] <zcorpan>
o_O

[07:13:03.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk2: SVG onload is a synchronous event firing when </svg> is seen

[07:14:00.0000] <annevk2>
oh yeah, XLink is pretty advanced

[07:14:01.0000] <annevk2>
I would strongly encourage you to only support the bits actually needed to make references from SVG and not support any of the additional stuff

[07:15:00.0000] <annevk2>
e.g. not have any actual XLink support

[07:15:01.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk2: I care about parity between the HTML and XML tree builders, but personally, I'd be OK with zapping XLink autolinks from XML as well

[07:16:00.0000] <annevk2>
I don't think they should work in XML

[07:16:01.0000] <annevk2>
/me was talking about DOM support

[07:17:00.0000] <hsivonen>
without SVG onload, </script> is the only 'pipeline hazard' that require the concrete tree insertions, the tree builder and the tokenizer to sync up

[07:18:00.0000] <annevk2>
SVG onload for </svg> would make sense if we allow <svg> as root, but I'm not sure if that's workable

[07:18:01.0000] <hsivonen>
but it's defined to fire for nested </svg>, too

[07:18:02.0000] <annevk2>
hmm ok, "SVG SUCKS"

[07:19:00.0000] <hsivonen>
annevk2: speaking of which, 'daddy' has a white background box in the snapshot of WebKit that NNW uses (obscuring some text)

[07:28:00.0000] <yael>
hello, I have a question about localStorage. Can I ask it on this channel?

[07:28:01.0000] <annevk2>
just ask

[07:28:02.0000] <jgraham>
yael: You can ask it on any channel, but this one has a particularly high chance of giving a useful answer

[07:29:00.0000] <zcorpan>
/me has found a way to inject arbitrary attributes that ie would pick up (not in ie8 mode) when roundtripped through html5lib, but hasn't found a way to make script run

[07:29:01.0000] <jgraham>
zcorpan: Do you mean through the sanitizer

[07:29:02.0000] <yael>
What is the impact of setting document.domain on localStorage? Should the browser stop using the localStorage for the current domain and start using the localStorage of the parent? 

[07:29:03.0000] <zcorpan>
yeah... although i haven't actually tested with the sanitizer

[07:30:00.0000] <zcorpan>
<br title=``foo>

[07:30:01.0000] <annevk2>
yael, document.domain does not affect localStorage

[07:31:00.0000] <annevk2>
if it did the spec would say so

[07:31:01.0000] <annevk2>
document.domain only affects a limited number of APIs

[07:32:00.0000] <yael>
annevk2: thank you. :-)

[07:38:00.0000] <zcorpan>
jgraham: <head><meta charset=utf-8><br title=`><xmp>`><script>alert(1)</script></xmp>

[07:40:00.0000] <zcorpan>
/me wonders why '<head>' is serialized

[08:04:00.0000] <zcorpan>
hmm maybe the spec should require quotes for <, `, and unicode whitespace in attribute values

[09:50:00.0000] <virtuelv>
hendry: yt?

[10:15:00.0000] <karlcow>
gsnedders: http://twitter.com/kidehen/statuses/1257796237

[10:37:00.0000] <gsnedders>
karlcow: awesome.

[12:28:00.0000] <webben>
Is it well-known already that the "whatwg Archives" link at http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org  takes you to a Forbidden page?

[12:28:01.0000] <Philip`>
webben: It's now http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org , apparently because Dreamhost is stupid

[12:40:00.0000] <virtuelv>
Hixie: should html5 cover encoding of form data in POST requests?

[12:41:00.0000] <webben>
Philip`: ta

[12:41:01.0000] <virtuelv>
or, rather, it does, and I missed it on first glance

[12:42:00.0000] <webben>
hmm the links on that page are all broken too :(

[12:42:01.0000] <webben>
hurray at least the search still works

[13:09:00.0000] <gsnedders>
What are the most common assumptions that people make about others?

[13:23:00.0000] <Philip`>
gsnedders: That they exist

[13:26:00.0000] <Dashiva>
CURIEs in @rel are not a problem. We have always been at war with Eurasia.

[15:00:00.0000] <heycam>
i suppose http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab wasn't minted in 1999

[15:01:00.0000] <gsnedders>
heycam: Why, of course not! That might be expected!

[15:01:01.0000] <heycam>
:)

[15:02:00.0000] <heycam>
and yes i can see why they might want to use that URI, but it does sort of break the expectation of the year being relevant to when it was minted

[15:02:01.0000] <heycam>
it's a useful expectation since it helps you narrow down the range of years to guess-and-check when you can't remember the correct uri :)

[15:04:00.0000] <Hixie>
the whole concept of putting dates in permanent urls is ridiculous

[15:04:01.0000] <Hixie>
almost as ridiculous as the concept of permanent urls as identifiers!

[15:04:02.0000] <Hixie>
/me ducks

[15:04:03.0000] <gsnedders>
/me cows

[15:05:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me duckers

[15:07:00.0000] <heycam>
i can reliably remember the svg, xhtml and xslt namespace uris, but that's it

[15:07:01.0000] <heycam>
the xml one i have particular difficulty with...

[15:07:02.0000] <Hixie>
i'm especially proud of the xbl one

[15:08:00.0000] <heycam>
what is it, /ns/xbl or something?

[15:08:01.0000] <Hixie>
yup. so awesome you guessed it without knowing it.

[15:08:02.0000] <heycam>
i knew it at one stage, but had forgotten

[15:08:03.0000] <Hixie>
hehe

[15:09:00.0000] <heycam>
i think you still need special dispensation to use http://www.w3.org/ns/blah namespace uris

[15:09:01.0000] <Hixie>
you need special dispensation for /yyyy/blah urls too

[15:09:02.0000] <Hixie>
/yyyy/mm/blah are the only ones you can mint without agreement

[15:09:03.0000] <Hixie>
at least in theory

[15:09:04.0000] <Hixie>
last i chekced

[15:09:05.0000] <heycam>
oh, so even less memorable :)

[15:10:00.0000] <heycam>
i don't have difficult remembering java package/class names, on the other hand

[15:10:01.0000] <Hixie>
indeed!

[15:10:02.0000] <heycam>
import java.1999.awt.Button

[15:13:00.0000] <heycam>
Hixie, so i see that you noted in some forum recently that you weren't tracking public-html mails and that was up to someone else

[15:13:01.0000] <heycam>
since i've sent a few things there that haven't been dealt with yet, should i instead have filed bugzilla entries or something?

[15:14:00.0000] <heycam>
(i think those particular ones are on your issues list, but i was just wondering about procedure)

[15:14:01.0000] <Hixie>
in theory the chairs are supposed (i am told) to tell me what to respond to

[15:14:02.0000] <Hixie>
in practice i respond to anything that is a comment on the spec that i don't think is inane

[15:14:03.0000] <Hixie>
which doesn't actually include that much

[15:14:04.0000] <Hixie>
but that's another story

[15:14:05.0000] <Hixie>
what was your feedback? i can see if it's in the folders

[15:14:06.0000] <heycam>
i did check, and i saw a few things of mine there, so i'm sure it's fine

[15:15:00.0000] <heycam>
just wanted to know what i *should* have been doing

[15:15:01.0000] <Hixie>
officially, filing a bug is the way to ensure that i don't miss your feedback

[15:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
or asking the chairs to track it

[15:16:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me waits for heycam to return

[15:16:02.0000] <Hixie>
officially, filing a bug is the way to ensure that i don't miss your feedback

[15:16:03.0000] <Hixie>
or asking the chairs to track it

[15:17:00.0000] <heycam>
k

[15:17:01.0000] <heycam>
(wireless is dodgy here)

[15:17:02.0000] <Hixie>
in practice if you send feedback i'll see it and track it

[15:17:03.0000] <Hixie>
i do read every e-mail on public-html, the only ones i don't add to my pile are the ones that are either rehashing old ground, making proposals that are prosterous on their face, trolling, ignorant, etc

[15:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
sometimes something falls through the cracks though

[15:18:01.0000] <Hixie>
so if you want to make sure, either ask me or file a bug

[15:18:02.0000] <heycam>
ack

[15:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
bbiab


2009-02-28
[16:53:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I am curious what is up with this RDFa issue

[16:53:01.0000] <othermaciej>
why so much sudden cross-list drama?

[16:53:02.0000] <othermaciej>
is it something I can safely ignore?

[22:24:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
annevk: "HTTP is in fact still restricted to a very limited character that can do only slightly more than US-ASCII." - something's missing after 'character'

[22:25:00.0000] <karlcow>
set

[22:44:00.0000] <Hixie>
HTTP supports a character _set_ other than the first 128 characters in Unicode?

[22:44:01.0000] <Hixie>
huh

[22:46:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: isn't iso-8859-1 both a character set and encoding?

[22:46:01.0000] <Hixie>
yes, but does http support -1?

[22:47:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
dunno :)

[22:47:01.0000] <annevk3>
hmm, is this fallout from my blogpost?

[22:48:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
yes

[22:48:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me looks to see if you blogged :-)

[22:48:02.0000] <annevk3>
/me just arrived in a Nikko

[22:48:03.0000] <annevk3>
s/a//

[22:48:04.0000] <zcorpan_>
you rrived in a Nikko?

[22:49:00.0000] <Hixie>
btw fwiw my understanding is that utf-16 actually isn't a good character encoding internally either

[22:49:01.0000] <annevk3>
in Nikko, small place outside Tokyo

[22:49:02.0000] <annevk3>
Hixie, I covered that

[22:50:00.0000] <annevk3>
/me should go someplace rather than talking about this

[22:52:00.0000] <karlcow>
 /kick annevk3 

[22:53:00.0000] <Hixie>
annevk3: before you go

[22:53:01.0000] <Hixie>
i'd be interested in people's feedback on the way i did author-facing DOM documentation:

[22:53:02.0000] <Hixie>
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#htmlcollection

[22:54:00.0000] <Hixie>
comes after each idl block in section 2 right now

[22:54:01.0000] <Hixie>
i'm planning on styling it a bit

[22:55:00.0000] <Hixie>
also in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#url-decomposition-attributes

[22:56:00.0000] <annevk3>
looks good

[22:56:01.0000] <Hixie>
cool

[22:56:02.0000] <Hixie>
when you get back examine the styles i'll come up with an let me know what you think :-)

[22:58:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: are you going to add classes to everything that says which classes of products a piece of text applies to?

[22:58:01.0000] <Hixie>
no

[22:58:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
so what's the plan? :)

[22:58:03.0000] <Hixie>
i plan to have one class

[22:59:00.0000] <Hixie>
"impl"

[22:59:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
ah

[22:59:02.0000] <Hixie>
which hides stuff that authors might not want to see on first blush

[22:59:03.0000] <Hixie>
i've actually already marked up everything in sections 1 and 2

[22:59:04.0000] <Hixie>
here let me add a quick alt style sheet

[23:02:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me tries to find a browser that actually supports alternative tyle sheets set from <Style>

[23:02:01.0000] <Hixie>
sigh

[23:02:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
doesn't firefox?

[23:02:03.0000] <Hixie>
apparently not

[23:02:04.0000] <zcorpan_>
hmm i thought it did before

[23:02:05.0000] <Hixie>
oh wait

[23:03:00.0000] <Hixie>
i have to regen the spec

[23:03:01.0000] <Hixie>
duh

[23:03:02.0000] <Hixie>
<-- idiot

[23:03:03.0000] <zcorpan_>
/me modified the style sheet in view source

[23:03:04.0000] <zcorpan_>
/me loves that feature

[23:05:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh dear, webkit just applies all these style sheets

[23:05:01.0000] <Hixie>
sigh again

[23:05:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
i think that's what opera does, too, and is correct per html4 iirc :)

[23:06:00.0000] <Hixie>
that's not clear

[23:06:01.0000] <Hixie>
but anyway

[23:06:02.0000] <Hixie>
html5 says otherwise!

[23:06:03.0000] <zcorpan_>
indeed

[23:06:04.0000] <Hixie>
ok well anyway

[23:06:05.0000] <Hixie>
style sheet should be there now

[23:06:06.0000] <Hixie>
it makes section 2 quite short!

[23:10:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
nice

[23:15:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
maybe .impl should be highlighted in some way by default: not only is it stuff that authors *don't* want to see, but it's also what implementors are specifically looking for

[23:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
some of the .impl stuff is individual words in the middle of paragraphs

[23:16:01.0000] <Hixie>
i don't want to add yet more confusing colours

[23:16:02.0000] <Hixie>
it's already going to be pretty confusing

[23:20:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: parts of the ToC is broken with the author style sheet

[23:20:01.0000] <Hixie>
yeah i haven't updated the toc script to delete bits that are in the author sections yet

[23:20:02.0000] <Hixie>
er

[23:20:03.0000] <Hixie>
impl sections

[23:29:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan_: i added another style sheet to highlight the impl bits

[00:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan_: ok, toc updates too now

[00:24:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: sweet

[00:26:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
/me ponders whether 1.7.1 How to read this specification applies to authors

[00:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
yes

[00:33:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: hmm, i'm thinking about the order of the subsections in 2.4 Common microsyntaxes -- in particular i think it would be useful to have boolean attributes and enumerated attributes next to each other and highlight that e.g. contenteditable is not a boolean attribute

[00:33:01.0000] <Hixie>
good call. file a bug?

[00:33:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
ok

[00:33:03.0000] <Hixie>
thanks!

[00:33:04.0000] <Hixie>
i want to have as few edits in this next checkin as possible

[00:33:05.0000] <Hixie>
it's gonna be huge enough as it is

[00:35:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
despite being only an editorial checkin, it will probably be one of the most useful checkins

[00:35:01.0000] <Hixie>
wtf i'm getting 500ms pings to my isp

[00:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
zcorpan_: it's including a lot of new text in the form of these dom overview bits

[00:36:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: but those are still "editorial", are they not?

[00:37:00.0000] <Hixie>
yup

[00:37:01.0000] <Hixie>
they count as notes

[00:37:02.0000] <Hixie>
/me stops the three video downloads that were killing his connection

[00:38:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
downloading porn while doing work?

[00:39:00.0000] <Hixie>
downloading the dilbert animated series from iTunes

[00:43:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: hmm. the links in the idl are broken in the author view

[00:43:01.0000] <Hixie>
yup

[00:43:02.0000] <Hixie>
dunno what to do about that

[00:44:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
maybe the author notes and ua requirements could be interleaved?

[00:45:00.0000] <Hixie>
how would that work, e.g., for the url decomposition attributes?

[00:45:01.0000] <Hixie>
also, that wouldn't actually solve the problem

[01:02:00.0000] <Hixie>
oooh, new top gear. i missed the start of the season.

[01:12:00.0000] <john_fallows>
Hixie: just reading through the latest spec draft and noticed a few things...

[01:13:00.0000] <john_fallows>
descriptions for onopen, onmessage and onerror still use "bubbling" in the language even though EventSource is not an element - is that still accurate?

[01:13:01.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: I just read your big thread with Sam on www-archive from earlier in the month

[01:13:02.0000] <othermaciej>
"Moving past last call for HTML5"

[01:14:00.0000] <othermaciej>
why is it that reading it feels like watching an elaborate kabuki dance?

[01:14:01.0000] <Hixie>
john_fallows: technically yes, though it's pretty much meaningless since it's not a DOM node anymore

[01:14:02.0000] <Hixie>
john_fallows: but i use the same terminology everywhere for consistency, and it is technically correct

[01:15:00.0000] <john_fallows>
okay - just checking because at first it seemed like an oversight

[01:15:01.0000] <Hixie>
though come to think of it, DOM3 Events might need to explicitly talk about event dispatch on non-nodes

[01:15:02.0000] <Hixie>
john_fallows: understood

[01:15:03.0000] <john_fallows>
on a different note:  WebSocket authentication...

[01:16:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: which parts in particular?

[01:16:01.0000] <john_fallows>
saw that auth headers and cookies can be sent now, cool.

[01:16:02.0000] <Hixie>
john_fallows: yeah. not sure exactly how that's gonna work, but in theory it can

[01:16:03.0000] <john_fallows>
but there was also a note previously with a TODO for status code 401

[01:16:04.0000] <john_fallows>
now 401 would fail the connection, right?

[01:16:05.0000] <Hixie>
yeah i decided to punt on that for this version

[01:17:00.0000] <john_fallows>
so auth would require an explicit preflight?

[01:17:01.0000] <Hixie>
it's require headers in the original connection, yeah. which probably isn't really possible to set up at this point.

[01:17:02.0000] <Hixie>
though if you websocket to the http port, you'll send cookies

[01:17:03.0000] <Hixie>
so you can use cookies

[01:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
if you set them ahead ahead of time

[01:18:01.0000] <Hixie>
set them up, even

[01:18:02.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: a lot of it sounded to me like he wanted something that he wasn't clearly coming out and saying

[01:18:03.0000] <john_fallows>
right, so preflight over regular http, possibly get a 401 for that, ensure the session cookie is setup, then make the WebSocket connection (with auth) ?

[01:18:04.0000] <othermaciej>
I guess he made some specific requests at the end but they seemed underwhelming relative to the build-up

[01:19:00.0000] <othermaciej>
was weird to read

[01:19:01.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: yeah it is still pretty unclear to me how he intends to declare consensus

[01:19:02.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: he never really answered that

[01:19:03.0000] <Hixie>
john_fallows: well typically cookie auth doesn't involve 401s, but yes

[01:19:04.0000] <othermaciej>
it seems clear to me that we can't have unanimity on everything, and while the W3C PRocess says that consensus is not unanimity, it doesn't make very clear how it differs

[01:20:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: there are topics where as far as i can tell we have people with mutually exclusive opinions

[01:20:01.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: so unanimity is impossible

[01:20:02.0000] <john_fallows>
Hixie: sure (possibly 401) :-)

[01:20:03.0000] <othermaciej>
I did find one interesting idea in the mail on www-archive, which is the idea of removing document conformance requirements

[01:20:04.0000] <othermaciej>
I wonder how many controversial issues that would take off the table

[01:21:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: e.g. some people want profile="" out, some people want profile="" in. There's no middle ground there.

[01:21:01.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: i would be very strongly opposed to that, so, none. :-)

[01:21:02.0000] <othermaciej>
Hixie: that would be a new controversial issue

[01:22:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[01:22:01.0000] <othermaciej>
at first reading it sounded crazy to me

[01:22:02.0000] <othermaciej>
but I thought, it doesn't matter if alt is mandatory if there are no conformance requirements

[01:22:03.0000] <Hixie>
can you imagine, if we allow <b><i></b></i>, how many people would hunt us down personally to shot us?

[01:22:04.0000] <othermaciej>
it doesn't matter if summary is allowed

[01:22:05.0000] <othermaciej>
it doesn't matter if profile is allowed

[01:22:06.0000] <Hixie>
shoot

[01:22:07.0000] <othermaciej>
I do, however, think that some people would hate it

[01:22:08.0000] <othermaciej>
on the basis of that

[01:22:09.0000] <Hixie>
it would allow <blink>!

[01:22:10.0000] <othermaciej>
although using the word "allow" is prejudicial

[01:22:11.0000] <Hixie>
we'd be forever known as the working group that allowed <blink>

[01:23:00.0000] <othermaciej>
the spec does not allow or disallow, it just describes what happens when you do it

[01:23:01.0000] <othermaciej>
(in the hypothetical world of no document conformance requirements)

[01:23:02.0000] <Hixie>
if ou don't disallow something, you tacitly or explicitly allow it

[01:23:03.0000] <Hixie>
anyway

[01:23:04.0000] <Hixie>
i don't see this as a path that leads to more consensus

[01:23:05.0000] <othermaciej>
I think it is true that document conformance requirements don't directly affect interoperability

[01:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
they affect validator interop

[01:24:01.0000] <othermaciej>
which is why they are more subjective, and thus more subject to debate

[01:24:02.0000] <john_fallows>
Hixie: do you want me to send feedback to the mailing list about large WebSocket frames and stream-based access instead of fully allocated buffer access?

[01:24:03.0000] <Hixie>
they don't affect browser interop (clearly, given 95% failure rates on the web)

[01:24:04.0000] <othermaciej>
they don't affect the ability of the document to work across different user agents

[01:24:05.0000] <Hixie>
john_fallows: i would hold off on that until we have websocket v1 implemented widely

[01:24:06.0000] <othermaciej>
validators only exist because there are document conformance requirements, so saying they exist for validator interop is circular

[01:25:00.0000] <Hixie>
john_fallows: you can though, if you want me to add it to the list of v2 features to look at later :-)

[01:25:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I do note that we've had almost no controversy over UA requirements, because most of the time they are essentially forced by reality

[01:26:00.0000] <john_fallows>
Hixie: haha - are any of the browser vendors prototyping WebSocket yet?

[01:26:01.0000] <othermaciej>
document conformance requirements however have no grounding in reality

[01:26:02.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: it is true that document conformance is a different issue than ua conformance

[01:26:03.0000] <othermaciej>
which is why people fight over them

[01:26:04.0000] <othermaciej>
whether or not we do anything based on this, I think it is an interesting insight

[01:26:05.0000] <Hixie>
john_fallows: don't think so

[01:27:00.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: i think there can be grounding in reality. it's language design, and language design can be grounded in reality.

[01:27:01.0000] <Hixie>
othermaciej: indeed many of the controversial points -- profile, summary, alt -- are what i perceive to be reality vs idealism issues

[01:28:00.0000] <othermaciej>
well, one's impression of how different requirements for those features work in practice can certainly be more or less informed by reality

[01:28:01.0000] <othermaciej>
but I note that for all of those, no one debates what the UA requirements should be

[01:28:02.0000] <othermaciej>
they only debate whether they should be allowed, forbidden, mandatory, etc for authors

[01:28:03.0000] <Hixie>
people have debated whether browsers should expose existing summary="" attributes or not

[01:29:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I don't think anyone really strongly advocates that - it's just presented as an alternative to recommending <caption>

[01:29:01.0000] <othermaciej>
I do not believe it stems from a sincere desire to see summary="" exposed in visual UAs

[01:30:00.0000] <Hixie>
granted

[01:32:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I personally do think validators (well, validator.nu style ones, not as much schema regurgitators) make useful QA tools

[01:33:00.0000] <othermaciej>
I always assumed that what they tell you about your document has to be defined by normative prose in the spec

[01:33:01.0000] <Hixie>
indeed

[01:33:02.0000] <othermaciej>
but now it is hard for me to produce a clear rationale for that

[01:33:03.0000] <Hixie>
it's psychological

[01:33:04.0000] <Hixie>
a validator can't act with authority if it doesn't have a spec to point to

[01:34:00.0000] <Hixie>
people ignore it and say "well that's not really the rule"

[01:34:01.0000] <othermaciej>
well, 'lint' and similar tools work fine without having a spec to point to

[01:34:02.0000] <othermaciej>
their position is not one of enforcing rules, but of helping you make your code better

[01:35:00.0000] <othermaciej>
or similarly gcc -W -Wall -Werror is not justified by any particular spec

[01:35:01.0000] <othermaciej>
but people find that more useful than gcc -ansi -pedantic, which is

[01:36:00.0000] <Hixie>
i think there are two reasons for that

[01:36:01.0000] <othermaciej>
(or at least I do)

[01:36:02.0000] <Hixie>
one is that the c spec sucks

[01:36:03.0000] <Hixie>
another is that programmers are far more likely to be technically competent and self-aware than html authors

[01:37:00.0000] <othermaciej>
sure, some educated html authors will want tools to help them get it right, a somewhat larger portion may be browbeaten into following rules, and a fair chunk cannot ever be forced to get it right

[03:46:00.0000] <Hixie>
now done up to Content Models

[03:51:00.0000] <Hixie>
any preference on the commas near the "can be set" text in these domintro bits?

[03:52:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
looks fine with the comma

[03:54:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: "the body element" uses <code> in the links but not in the definition

[03:54:01.0000] <Hixie>
oops

[03:57:00.0000] <Hixie>
fixed

[03:58:00.0000] <Hixie>
i don't understand why firefox shows the wrong status box

[03:58:01.0000] <Hixie>
i just noticed it always shows the color one

[04:02:00.0000] <Hixie>
oh i know why

[04:03:00.0000] <Hixie>
the status boxes won't work for the author version

[04:03:01.0000] <Hixie>
hmm

[04:03:02.0000] <Hixie>
how to fix this

[04:03:03.0000] <annevk3>
about:blank can never be conforming?

[04:04:00.0000] <annevk3>
(it always triggers quirks)

[04:04:01.0000] <Hixie>
about:config fires multiple parse errors

[04:04:02.0000] <Hixie>
and other errors

[04:04:03.0000] <Hixie>
e.g. no <title>

[04:05:00.0000] <Hixie>
ok so maybe just two errors and one "should" violation

[04:05:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
what's the "should"?

[04:05:02.0000] <zcorpan_>
empty body?

[04:06:00.0000] <Hixie>
yeah

[04:06:01.0000] <zcorpan_>
in opera, about:blank and a non-quirky doctype and a <title> :)

[04:07:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
s/and/has/

[04:08:00.0000] <annevk3>
for namedItem the name="" attribute case is not mentioned (and if that was intentional, for getElementsByName it is)

[04:12:00.0000] <Hixie>
um

[04:12:01.0000] <Hixie>
please to be more specific

[04:12:02.0000] <Hixie>
which namedItem?

[04:12:03.0000] <annevk3>
HTMLCollection

[04:14:00.0000] <Hixie>
oops

[04:18:00.0000] <Hixie>
fixed

[04:23:00.0000] <zcorpan_>
Hixie: will you generate pdfs for the author view?

[04:23:01.0000] <Hixie>
my plan is to not do anything for a while

[04:24:00.0000] <Hixie>
and then see if i can convince g or philip to make static versions

[04:24:01.0000] <Hixie>
and if that works, i can generate pdfs from those

[04:30:00.0000] <gsnedders>
So, basically, your plan is to get somebody else to do it? :)

[04:30:01.0000] <Hixie>
crap, g is here!

[04:30:02.0000] <Hixie>
run away!!!

[04:30:03.0000] <gsnedders>
:P

[04:30:04.0000] <Hixie>
/me hides

[04:33:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me has a fair number of items on his to-do list due to Hixie already

[04:34:00.0000] <Hixie>
/me cracks the whip

[04:35:00.0000] <gsnedders>
That would be less scary if it weren't for the fact that one of my friends has decided to talk to me about BDSM.

[04:35:01.0000] <Hixie>
/me retracts the whip quickly so as to remove any confusion

[04:36:00.0000] <gsnedders>
See, if I hadn't also been in that conversation I would've just laughed :P

[04:36:01.0000] <gsnedders>
Damned friends!

[04:40:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me goes back to wondering why they chose to talk to me

[05:26:00.0000] <rubys>
/me chuckles at the "kabuki dance" reference

[05:36:00.0000] <gsnedders>
I am so far behind on email this is really annoying.

[06:02:00.0000] <hsivonen>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Feb/0309.html

[06:19:00.0000] <Philip`>
Hmm, how odd, Google gave me an invalid URL in its search results

[06:20:00.0000] <Philip`>
<a href="http://%3c!--startfragment%20--%3eexample.com/etc" ...>

[06:21:00.0000] <Philip`>
(Opera says "illegal URL", Firefox says "server not found")

[06:55:00.0000] <partzufim>
hey all, just wanted to show you this nice new domain http://www.toolongtobecatchy.com check it out

[06:56:00.0000] <gsnedders>
That was _never_ spam.

[08:33:00.0000] <Dashiva>
The RDFa thing is more and more like some bizarro world thread. "We wanted to support [fragments] so we made am ambiguous syntax with no way of disambiguating it in fragments."

[09:55:00.0000] <karlcow>
Dashiva: mischaracterization ;) by using we in your sentence.

[09:56:00.0000] <karlcow>
/me is going to more important matters: food, poetry and sun.

[09:56:01.0000] <Dashiva>
What is this "sun" thing you speak of?

[10:00:00.0000] <Philip`>
Dashiva: It's a JS/Java bridge in Mozilla - http://code.google.com/p/doctype/wiki/ArticleHereComesTheSun

[12:21:00.0000] <sayrer>
wow, I have no idea what this @rel thread is about

[12:26:00.0000] <Philip`>
sayrer: It seems to just be about whether @rel is now a list of case-insensitive tokens or of URIs or of CURIEs, or something like that, with three different groups defining it in different ways and nobody wanting to budge from their position

[12:26:01.0000] <sayrer>
seriously?

[12:26:02.0000] <Philip`>
I think so

[12:27:00.0000] <sayrer>
that's what I thought they might be saying, but that would be crazy, so I thought I misunderstood

[12:27:01.0000] <Philip`>
(I could be wrong, since I've only skimmed over the few hundred emails about it)

[12:30:00.0000] <Philip`>
I guess they disagree that it's crazy

[12:32:00.0000] <sayrer>
yeah, if they continue to make XHTML coordination such a time sink, it seems like the easiest path for my work would be to leave XHTML5 for 2022

[12:33:00.0000] <sayrer>
excellent

[12:35:00.0000] <Philip`>
Think of XHTML5 as X(HTML5), not as (XHTML)5 - it's actually entirely unrelated to XHTML, and is just a direct XML serialisation of HTML5, so there's no need to worry about what anyone else is doing with XHTML

[12:41:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Going by the HTML5/HTML 5 distinction, (XHTML)5 would be XHTML 5, wouldn't it?

[12:45:00.0000] <Philip`>
Dashiva: The HTML5/HTML 5 distinction exists only to shut up people who complain about the spec being biased to text/html and against XML

[12:45:01.0000] <Philip`>
Apart from that, nobody cares about the distinction or attempts to follow it

[12:46:00.0000] <sayrer>
it seems like dropping the XHTML coordination points would speed things along

[12:46:01.0000] <sayrer>
can't say that we get a lot of demand there, so I don't think our users are clamoring for us to do something in this area

[12:47:00.0000] <Dashiva>
sayrer: The RDFa-in-XHTML spec (or some related spec) defined @rel to be CURIEs, without the safe CURIE restriction. This makes some values ambiguous

[12:47:01.0000] <sayrer>
I wish them well :)

[12:47:02.0000] <Philip`>
Dashiva: Ambiguous with some other group that defined them to be URIs, do you mean?

[12:48:00.0000] <sayrer>
they seem to think that we MUST follow their spec

[12:48:01.0000] <Philip`>
(rather than being ambiguous with anything defined in HTML 5, which doesn't seem to care what you think they are because they're just strings?)

[12:48:02.0000] <sayrer>
I don't think they'll find that to be the case

[12:49:00.0000] <Dashiva>
sayrer: Not like they'll care ;)

[12:49:01.0000] <Philip`>
sayrer: It seems reasonable for them to think that having two specs defining incompatible behaviour for very similar formats is a problem that should be solved

[12:49:02.0000] <sayrer>
seems to me that criticism applies to XHTML and HTML

[12:49:03.0000] <sayrer>
and this is just fallout

[12:50:00.0000] <Philip`>
I'm not sure how the @rel issue is related to XHTML vs HTML

[12:50:01.0000] <Philip`>
Oh, except I suppose if @rel is a CURIE because then it doesn't make sense in HTML

[12:51:00.0000] <Philip`>
in which case it is an XHTML vs HTML thing

[12:51:01.0000] <Philip`>
and they should happily let themselves be steamrollered by HTML's requirements

[12:53:00.0000] <Dashiva>
I thought steamrolling was a trademark of XHTML2

[12:59:00.0000] <Philip`>
As far as I'm aware, the XHTML2 group aren't the ones who flagrantly violate other people's specs and say "I don't care what you say, we have to do it this way because we've got a billion users, tough luck"

[13:04:00.0000] <drostie>
Are you kidding? That's basically the modus operandi of the XML developers in general.

[13:04:01.0000] <Dashiva>
Philip`: I suppose that's a different use of steamrolling. I limit it to forcing other people, not customizing your personal use.

[13:05:00.0000] <sayrer>
Philip`: yes, the issue should be addressed in time. I don't think all deliverables need to be gated on its resolution.

[13:10:00.0000] <Philip`>
Dashiva: I mean it in the senses like "To overwhelm or suppress ruthlessly" and "bring to a specified state by overwhelming force or pressure", progressing strongly towards one's own goals by overriding any objections that get in the way

[13:10:01.0000] <Hixie>
Philip: it also exists to give me something to say when someone asks me the ridiculous question of whether there should be a space between the L and the 5

[13:14:00.0000] <drostie>
Hixie: why not just say "there should be TWO spaces between the L and the 5" ...?

[13:14:01.0000] <drostie>
ridiculous questions deserve ridiculous answers ^_^

[13:43:00.0000] <Dashiva>
drostie forgot that multiple whitespace leads to discussions about normalizing whitespace :)

[13:45:00.0000] <Philip`>
Can I write HTML&#x000B;5?

[13:48:00.0000] <drostie>
Philip`: I think it should be a non-breaking space, making it HTML&#00A0;5 . ^_^

[14:57:00.0000] <Philip`>
krijnh: Why does http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090228 say "2009-02-22" at the top?

[14:58:00.0000] <Philip`>
and similarly why does http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090301 say "2009-03-30"?

[14:59:00.0000] <jcranmer>
Philip`: time travel?

[15:05:00.0000] <gsnedders>
/me checks to see what he said next month

[15:19:00.0000] <rubys1>
sayrer: the encouragement is not a requirement, but does specifically mention RDFa...

[15:20:00.0000] <sayrer>
rubys, it looks like the encouragement is for an extensibility mechanism

[15:20:01.0000] <sayrer>
rubys1^

[15:20:02.0000] <sayrer>
that RDFa might use

[15:22:00.0000] <sayrer>
"such as" is the key here, if you ask me

[15:42:00.0000] <Dashiva>
Marking up the KT extinction event with <time>...