| 00:22 | <Hixie> | 2 lines out of 160 e-mails so far |
| 00:22 | <Hixie> | sigh |
| 00:23 | <Philip`> | Does "I want latex2html to give less ugly output" count as a problem? |
| 00:23 | <Hixie> | it's closer than most of these e-mails |
| 00:24 | <Hixie> | "I have content in LaTeX and want to convert it to HTML and have it retain a high degree of typographical quality" is a problem |
| 00:24 | <Hixie> | though you should probably include an explanation of _why_ you want to convert it to HTML |
| 00:24 | <Philip`> | Because Adobe Reader is horribly slow, so I don't want to use PDF, and there's no other option |
| 00:25 | <Hixie> | well HTML isn't an option either now |
| 00:25 | <Philip`> | (Actually I'd just use PDF anyway, because it's people's own faults if they don't have a nicer PDF reader) |
| 00:25 | <Hixie> | so really your problem is "I have content in LaTeX and want to view it in a good viewer while retaining a high degree of typographical quality" |
| 00:26 | <Hixie> | at which point, HTML really doesn't seem like it has a good place in any solution for that problem |
| 00:26 | <Philip`> | It needs to be a widely-distributed reader too, so that most people are able to access my content |
| 00:26 | <Philip`> | and it needs to be indexed by search engines, so that people can find my stuff |
| 00:27 | <BenMillard> | PDFs do get indexed by search engines? |
| 00:27 | <Hixie> | these all seem like LaTeX problems, not HTML problems :-) |
| 00:28 | <Philip`> | BenMillard: They do by at least Google, which is all that counts |
| 00:28 | <Philip`> | Hixie: They're still problems, and problems that could be solved by HTML |
| 00:28 | <BenMillard> | how about "I have content in LaTeX and want to include it on my web page." |
| 00:28 | <Hixie> | to be honest i don't really see the problem here |
| 00:28 | <Hixie> | BenMillard: yes, that's a different problem entirely |
| 00:29 | <Hixie> | Philip`: if you have content in LaTeX, and you publish it to PDF, you already have a widely available viewer, good typopraphy, and searchability |
| 00:29 | <Hixie> | Philip`: seems like a solved problem |
| 00:29 | <Hixie> | BenMillard: and a valid problem |
| 00:29 | <othermaciej> | PDF is its own world |
| 00:30 | <Hixie> | BenMillard: though not one that anyone on the mailing list seems to have mentioned so far :-) (in the 163 mails i've read) |
| 00:30 | <othermaciej> | it seems nice in principle to be able to do math decently without escaping to a different basic technology for your whole document |
| 00:30 | <othermaciej> | I have to agree that MathML syntax seems vile, now that I have looked more closely |
| 00:31 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Many people use latex2html now, despite it being slightly ugly, so there must be reasons why they do that, and I'm just not entirely sure what those reasons are :-) |
| 00:31 | <BenMillard> | hixie, perhaps you are being to picky about their wording? |
| 00:31 | <Hixie> | Philip`: yeah, me either |
| 00:31 | <Philip`> | but that doesn't make the reasons not exist |
| 00:32 | <Hixie> | BenMillard: no, i'm trying to pull problems out of these e-mails, even if they haven't mentioned them intentionally. Sadly most of these e-mails are arguing about which syntax to use, on the basis of the syntax's own characteristics. |
| 00:32 | <Hixie> | not suitability to solving any particular problem |
| 00:32 | <BenMillard> | hixie, ah |
| 00:32 | <Hixie> | Philip`: oh i agree. but if i don't know what the problems are, i can't solve them, or evaluate proposed solutions for them. |
| 00:41 | <Hixie> | man, i'm going to be skipping a lot of these e-mails in my eventual reply |
| 00:41 | <Hixie> | so much arguing back and forth about nothing |
| 00:42 | <BenMillard> | the inexpressiveness of plain text can bring out the worst in people (including me) |
| 00:42 | <Hixie> | oh i've seen these discussions happen in person too |
| 00:43 | <Hixie> | the only difference is that those discussions don't end up in my inbox two years later :-P |
| 00:43 | <BenMillard> | win! |
| 00:44 | <Hixie> | Elliotte Harold wrote: |
| 00:44 | <Hixie> | > The specific syntax is important because there's a huge, useful toolchain for processing XML and there's essentially zilch for |
| 00:44 | <Hixie> | > processing this strange HTML 5 thing. |
| 00:44 | <Hixie> | yay for all of you guys implementing the html5 tools over the past 2 years |
| 00:56 | <Hixie> | wohay, e-mail 250/368 is henri's e-mail earlier this month |
| 00:56 | <Hixie> | 118 e-mails in a few weeks |
| 00:56 | <Hixie> | hopefully _some_ will have problem descriptions |
| 00:56 | <Hixie> | because the first 249 e-mails had nothing beyond what's on the wiki now |
| 01:04 | <Hixie> | ok henri's e-mail more than doubled the size of that wiki page |
| 01:15 | <BenMillard> | would the top level of list items be more useful as headings on that page? |
| 01:16 | Hixie | tries |
| 01:16 | <Hixie> | nah, that looks more ugly i think |
| 01:17 | <Hixie> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=New_Vocabularies&oldid=2894 is what it looked like |
| 01:17 | <Hixie> | i've reverted it |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | i wonder if mathml would take off more if it were available in text/html, but IE continued to not support it |
| 01:21 | <vlad_> | are there any useful tools for producing mathml? |
| 01:21 | <Hixie> | hm, http://www.w3.org/mid/ABFEED64-8A5F-43C9-981B-416C6F65EA50⊙if is a very good point |
| 01:22 | <Hixie> | vlad_: dunno |
| 01:22 | <vlad_> | and potentially some way to easily put in normal-looking ascii math (perhaps with some script)? |
| 01:22 | <Hixie> | yeah, i really don't want to require that people write out raw mathml |
| 01:22 | <Hixie> | that's just insane stuff |
| 01:22 | <vlad_> | like, being able to type x^2/y^2 and have it do the right thing would be nice |
| 01:22 | <vlad_> | even if it's something like <span class="math">x^2/y^2</span> and then there's some JS that translates |
| 01:23 | <othermaciej> | JS translating latex math expressions to mathml would probably be doable |
| 01:23 | <Hixie> | i'd rather not rely on JS here |
| 01:23 | <Pavlov_> | vlad_: thats a font feature |
| 01:23 | <Hixie> | but that's another issue |
| 01:26 | <Philip`> | vlad_: The OO.o equation editor produces MathML and could be considered useful |
| 01:27 | <BenMillard> | hixie, the headings version seems a more conventional wiki page, to me. |
| 01:27 | <Hixie> | BenMillard: i'm not a conventional kind of guy :-) |
| 01:28 | <vlad_> | Pavlov_: e.g. http://www.zvon.org/HowTo/Output/MathMLtestsuite_abs1.php |
| 01:29 | <vlad_> | is a pretty crappy way to write |H/K| (granted, you also want italic H and K, but still) |
| 01:29 | <Pavlov_> | well |
| 01:29 | <Pavlov_> | its not great |
| 01:30 | <Pavlov_> | maybe some simple stuff would be OK |
| 01:31 | <BenMillard> | feedback on HTML5 from a friend I knew when I did GTA modding some years ago: "Damn you guys are fuckin smart" |
| 01:32 | <BenMillard> | I guess a poor first impression of the HTML5 effort is not a universal experience |
| 01:32 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 01:33 | Philip` | also happened to do GTA modding some years ago, where 'some' = 9 |
| 01:33 | <BenMillard> | ooh, I modded the early ones too :) |
| 01:34 | <Hixie> | speaking of GTA, is GTA4 out yet? |
| 01:34 | Hixie | has some cash earmarked for a PS3 and GTA4 and is just waiting |
| 01:37 | <BenMillard> | http://www.rockstargames.com/IV/events/ - 29th April 2008 |
| 01:37 | Hixie | calendars it |
| 01:38 | <Philip`> | http://web.archive.org/web/20020121215533/http://gta2.games.ultrastore.com/ - yay, my site sort of still exists |
| 01:39 | <BenMillard> | OMG I REMEMBER THAT WEBSITE |
| 01:41 | <BenMillard> | Philip`, this is a muliplayer level I made for GTA2: http://projectcerbera.com/gta2/multislayer/ |
| 01:41 | <Philip`> | Unfortunately I barely knew what I was doing, and didn't know how to write GUI programs in anything other than Visual Basic |
| 01:42 | <BenMillard> | I still don't know how to write GUI programs in anything other than VB :$ |
| 01:42 | <Philip`> | Later I learnt how to write GUI programs in Perl, which wasn't really any better |
| 01:43 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 01:44 | <Philip`> | (The only ones I've liked were in C++ / wxWidgets) |
| 01:44 | <Hixie> | delphi baby |
| 01:45 | <othermaciej> | I like to write GUI programs in HTML+CSS+JS |
| 01:46 | <othermaciej> | everything else seems annoying |
| 01:46 | <othermaciej> | (though ObjC+Cocoa is not so bad as such things go either) |
| 01:46 | <vlad_> | othermaciej: seriously.. though HTML could use some love |
| 01:46 | <Philip`> | BenMillard: The world looks oddly familiar there - the textures and shapes are all familiar, but I got bored and moved away before the map editor was released so the perspective is odd |
| 01:46 | <vlad_> | (cough xul box model cough) |
| 01:46 | <othermaciej> | vlad_: we got your xul box model |
| 01:47 | <othermaciej> | I wish the CSS WG would show it some love |
| 01:47 | <vlad_> | yeah |
| 01:47 | <othermaciej> | instead of figuring how to full-justify arabic text in the presence of chinese vertical writing that uses double-width characters |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | all it would take is an editor |
| 01:48 | <vlad_> | othermaciej: we should really fedex those people a nice pen and some parchment |
| 01:48 | <Philip`> | othermaciej: HTML+CSS+JS doesn't work so well when you're trying to decode and render graphics from complex binary files on the user's computer, and trying to do it fast |
| 01:48 | <vlad_> | and they can have at it |
| 01:48 | <othermaciej> | Philip`: oh, well, I wouldn't use it for the non-GUI part |
| 01:50 | <Philip`> | othermaciej: Do you mean you'd have a non-GUI part in a proper language (C++ or Python or whatever) and expose a web interface to it for all interaction? |
| 01:51 | <othermaciej> | if I were called on to write a GUI app I would probably do a desktop/web hybrid with most of the UI in HTML and compute-intensive or system-integrating code in a lower level language |
| 01:52 | <BenMillard> | Philip`, yeah seeing proper perspective in a 2.5D sprite-based game is pretty odd :) |
| 01:53 | <BenMillard> | Philip`, I remeber using M1win for GTA1, which had no draw distance limit. that was cool |
| 01:54 | <BenMillard> | Philip`, the textures for MultiSlayer are actually from the Vice City level in GTA1 |
| 02:02 | <dglazkov> | hey enough reminiscing :) I have a question about the state of the HTML5 spec |
| 02:03 | <dglazkov> | would you say that HTML5 is an "upcoming spec"? |
| 02:03 | dglazkov | is looking for shiny words |
| 02:04 | <Hixie> | upcoming? |
| 02:05 | <dglazkov> | yes, as in "of the upcoming HTML5 specification" |
| 02:06 | <dglazkov> | would "HTML5 specification draft" be better? |
| 02:06 | <Hixie> | if it's not already "upcome", for lack of a better term, i wonder what it will take for it to do so :-) |
| 02:06 | <Hixie> | what's the whole sentence? |
| 02:06 | <Hixie> | i would just say "HTML5" |
| 02:06 | <Hixie> | but that's just me |
| 02:18 | dglazkov | thinks the peeps here are awesome |
| 02:27 | <BenMillard> | oh crikey it's 2:30am |
| 02:45 | <BenMillard> | Marco Zehe blogged about labelledby and describedby. I chatted to him in Mozilla's #accessibility channel and blogged an HTML4 alternative: http://projectcerbera.com/blog/2008/03#day24 |
| 04:24 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: yt? |
| 04:24 | <Hixie> | i don't understand your use case in http://www.w3.org/mid/3733150B-0B02-496D-8517-A9A6D040B3E8⊙if |
| 04:24 | <Hixie> | can you give an example of a page doing something like that? |
| 04:26 | <Hixie> | in particular, i don't understand why <img src="icon.svg" alt=""> isn't the best solution for that (even in xhtml today) |
| 04:34 | <Hixie> | hm, people want to be able to extract svg snippets from html documents and edit them in svg editors |
| 05:23 | <Hixie> | i am seriously considering not individually replying to all these e-mails |
| 05:23 | <Hixie> | even the ones sent to whatwg |
| 05:23 | <Hixie> | there is so much bikeshedding in these threads it's insane |
| 05:23 | <Hixie> | especially since what we're actually talking about here is the nuclear plant |
| 05:53 | <Hixie> | holy crap |
| 05:53 | <Hixie> | Philip` provides the first really detailed problem description: http://www.w3.org/mid/47DC70FB.1060205⊙cau |
| 05:56 | <Hixie> | ok i've read every e-mail |
| 05:56 | <Hixie> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/New_Vocabularies summarises what i found |
| 08:42 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JanMar/0507.html |
| 10:48 | <jgraham__> | re: typing <div class="math">latex</div> http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsmath/ |
| 10:50 | <hsivonen> | someone who knows HTML5 drag&drop might want to look into the ARIA drag&drop stuff |
| 14:10 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: the icon case is basically Sam's blog |
| 14:11 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: reasons for not using <img>: 1) Fallback behavior. 2) manageability as part of the markup text in a CMS. |
| 16:50 | <andersca> | Hixie? |
| 17:32 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: i honestly think that sam's blog would be better off using <img> |
| 17:32 | <Hixie> | andersca? |
| 17:33 | <andersca> | Hixie: hey |
| 17:33 | <andersca> | Hixie: about the cache update process |
| 17:33 | <andersca> | Hixie: is the order of the files in the file list important |
| 17:33 | <andersca> | Hixie: (the file list described in step 13) |
| 17:38 | <Hixie> | um |
| 17:39 | <Hixie> | it just says "For each URI in file list" on step 20, without specifying order, so i guess it doesn't matter |
| 17:41 | <Hixie> | the only time order matters is during parsing |
| 17:41 | <Hixie> | because it affects duplicate elimination in the fallback mode |
| 17:41 | <andersca> | yeah |
| 17:56 | Hixie | tries to decode "Content-reinforcing contextual progressive-enhancement eye-candy" |
| 17:57 | <Hixie> | i really have no idea what that means |
| 17:57 | <andersca> | good luck with that ;) |
| 17:57 | <Hixie> | maybe hsivonen is just again referring to sam's icons |
| 18:04 | <Lachy> | Hixie, yeah, Sam's icons would be a good example of that. I think it means content that is related to the surrounding content, but doesn't provide any additional information, and is done using progressive enhancement techniques |
| 18:04 | <Hixie> | yeah so i really don't see why you wouldn't want to use <img> for that |
| 18:05 | <Hixie> | duplicating the icon every time it is used seems like an anti-pattern |
| 18:05 | <Hixie> | bad for caching, bad for maintainability, etc |
| 18:08 | <Lachy> | yeah, I don't know why <img> wouldn't be better either, but I don't know why Sam does it the way he does |
| 18:08 | <Lachy> | maybe SVG in <img> isn't as widely supported yet |
| 18:09 | <Hixie> | that's obviously not a relevant argument when discussing new features in a spec with an ETA of more than 10 years from now :-) |
| 18:09 | <Philip`> | SVG in <img> only works in Opera 9.5, so it's useless in practice |
| 18:10 | <Hixie> | i thought i heard it worked in webkit now too |
| 18:10 | <Philip`> | Oh, okay, that could be true |
| 18:10 | <Philip`> | but if it doesn't work in Firefox, it's still useless in practice |
| 18:11 | <Hixie> | well sure |
| 18:11 | <Hixie> | but like i said |
| 18:11 | <Hixie> | not a problem when we're discussing future technologies |
| 18:12 | <Lachy> | yeah, I know. It's not an argument, merely a possible explanation |
| 18:18 | <Hixie> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/New_Vocabularies updated |
| 18:18 | <Hixie> | lots more on there now |
| 18:23 | <Hixie> | how the hell do we solve the custom-data-in-html issue |
| 18:26 | <Philip`> | Namespaces! |
| 18:27 | <Philip`> | Or make any element name and attribute name conformant |
| 18:31 | <Hixie> | "namespaces" would just lead to people taking divitis to the next level |
| 19:13 | <Lachy> | hmm. even http://www.dreamhoststatus.com/ is down, that probably means dreamhost is having serious problems right now |
| 19:13 | <Lachy> | that sucks, cause I even log into my email right now |
| 19:15 | <Lachy> | allowing any element or attribute name to be conforming would make the language less useful and prevent future standardised extensions |
| 19:15 | <virtuelv> | Lachy: dreamhoststatus is offsite |
| 19:17 | <virtuelv> | should be noted that there is a conflict between Cogent and TeliaSonera that may affect connectivity for you |
| 19:19 | <Lachy> | who are Cogent and TeliaSonera? |
| 19:19 | <Lachy> | but the problem is apparently with dreamhost, they wrote: |
| 19:19 | <Lachy> | "Sorry about the downtime. A lot of you have already been receiving blingy status messages. Blingy is your cluster of machines for web, mysql, and email. The main file server for this cluster is having serious problems." |
| 19:24 | <Hixie> | dreamhost is fine for me |
| 19:24 | <Hixie> | i'm editing through it right now |
| 19:24 | <Hixie> | the status page does seem down though |
| 19:26 | <virtuelv> | Lachy: backbone providers in the US and scandinavia, respectively |
| 19:30 | <Lachy> | my site is still up, it's just my email having problems |
| 19:31 | <Lachy> | I'm probably also on a different server from you |
| 21:27 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: that use case is the first one people have presented that actually would require just "raw xml"-equivalent support in text/html |
| 21:29 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: is that because XBL2 inherently requires raw XML? |
| 21:29 | <Hixie> | not so much raw XML, but it allows you to do things like have <option> elements outside of <select>s and stuff like that |
| 21:29 | <Hixie> | since the DOM is built up in parts |
| 21:30 | <Hixie> | so the parsing rules for html content end up being different than in normal html |
| 21:31 | <Hixie> | wtf, my opera build always starts up in a "wedged" state where it won't access the web for 5 minutes |
| 21:32 | <virtuelv> | Hixie: huh? |
| 21:32 | <Hixie> | when i launch opera, and tell it to go to a web site, it just sits there spinning |
| 21:32 | <virtuelv> | using feeds? |
| 21:32 | <virtuelv> | mail? |
| 21:32 | <Hixie> | only after several minutes (and closing and reopening the window) does it go there |
| 21:32 | <Hixie> | web |
| 21:32 | <virtuelv> | 9.5 or a prior version? |
| 21:32 | <Hixie> | just normal web |
| 21:33 | <Hixie> | 9.50 Beta 4681 |
| 21:33 | <virtuelv> | there is a vps folder in your profile directory |
| 21:33 | <virtuelv> | try nuking it |
| 21:34 | <virtuelv> | but hang on, I'll hear with some of the mac users |
| 21:35 | <Hixie> | i nuked Library/Application Data/Opera* and it didn't solve the problem |
| 21:36 | <virtuelv> | sounds omnious |
| 21:37 | <virtuelv> | I don't use mac, and have never seen similar behavior on other platforms |
| 21:37 | <virtuelv> | and short of actually upgrading to a later weekly, I'm afraid I can't offer more advice than "file a bug" |
| 21:41 | <Hixie> | is there a later weekly yet? |
| 21:41 | <Hixie> | i can never find them |
| 21:42 | <Hixie> | i wish opera had something like nightshift, or even better, like firefox's autoupdate |
| 21:43 | <virtuelv> | http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/ |
| 21:43 | <virtuelv> | latest post has newer builds |
| 21:44 | <virtuelv> | build 4716 |
| 21:44 | <Hixie> | k i'll see if i can remember to update next time i try to test opera |
| 21:44 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 21:44 | <virtuelv> | latest builds have a bunch of acid3 fixes |
| 21:45 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 21:48 | <Hixie> | same problem |
| 21:55 | <virtuelv> | heh, that's ... odd |
| 21:56 | <virtuelv> | noone I spoke to had heard anything about anything like this either |
| 22:02 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: yes, I referred to Sam's icons again with reading the irc log first |
| 22:28 | <Hixie> | woot, the whatwg was cited in a paper: http://www.cs.uic.edu/~mter/htmi-xss.pdf |
| 22:29 | <met_> | Hixie, favicon http://acid3.acidtests.org/favicon.ico is only joke or is it real part of Acid3? |
| 22:31 | <Hixie> | there is no http://acid3.acidtests.org/favicon.ico |
| 22:31 | <Hixie> | that's a 404 |
| 22:32 | <Hixie> | if you see that used as a favicon.ico, it's a bug |
| 22:32 | <vlad_> | not a 404 for me, unless your 404 serves a red image with a hand-drawn lion-thing |
| 22:32 | <annevk> | it does |
| 22:32 | <Hixie> | it does |
| 22:32 | <annevk> | :p |
| 22:33 | <Hixie> | hey anne |
| 22:33 | <Hixie> | nice vacation? |
| 22:33 | <annevk> | yeah, lots of snow :) |
| 22:33 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 22:33 | <annevk> | heading to San Diego now |
| 22:33 | <met_> | Hixie, thx misses 404 there, so bug in Firefox |
| 22:33 | <annevk> | CSS WG meeting starts tomorrow... |
| 22:36 | <Hixie> | annevk: enjoy |
| 22:36 | <annevk> | oh yes :) |
| 22:37 | om_afk | wonders how the exciting charter discussion will go |
| 22:37 | <Hixie> | have you created yourself a bingo card yet? with squares like "fantasai brings up an irrelevant point" and "bert says javascript is irrelevant to the web" and so on? |
| 22:37 | annevk | too |
| 22:37 | <annevk> | lol |
| 22:39 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: actually html5 is already under feature freeze :-) |
| 22:39 | <Hixie> | has been since late last year |
| 22:39 | <Hixie> | it's the main reason i didn't add workers |
| 22:41 | <tommorris> | does feature freeze mean that if an existing html4 behaviour has been removed it cannot be reinstated? |
| 22:41 | <Hixie> | no |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | e.g. headers="" was added last week |
| 22:47 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: how solid feature freeze, though? We don't have SVG or MathML or the like in HTML 4/5, for example |
| 22:53 | <Philip`> | Gmail really isn't very good at keeping track of unread message counts when a message has multiple labels |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: feature freeze with the caveat that issues that had been raised before the feature freeze would still get resolved |
| 23:16 | tommorris | wonders whether the lack of compatibility with the GRDDL specification counts as a raised issue |
| 23:24 | jgraham | guesses phillips problem with gmail is less annoying than the random number that thunderbird occasionally displays over the dock icon on OSX |
| 23:24 | <jgraham> | s/phillips/Philip`'s/ |
| 23:25 | <jgraham> | Presumably they are supposed to be unread message counts but random numbers might work just as well |