| 01:19 | <dglazkov> | hey, I have webforms2.org domain sitting still |
| 01:19 | <dglazkov> | anybody need it? |
| 07:30 | <hsivonen> | " <oedipus> zcorpan, xhtml2 and xforms have been artificially |
| 07:30 | <hsivonen> | suppressed by implementors |
| 07:30 | <hsivonen> | argh |
| 07:30 | <hsivonen> | slip of paste |
| 07:36 | <virtuelv> | still an interesting quote |
| 07:37 | <annevk> | implementors are evil |
| 07:37 | <othermaciej> | artificially suppressed! |
| 07:37 | <othermaciej> | because after all, every spec has an intrinsic right to be implemented |
| 07:40 | <hsivonen> | anyway, what I thought I had on the clipboard was something different from www-style |
| 07:40 | <hsivonen> | "The WHATWG seems to be more receptive to ideas than the other w3c |
| 07:40 | <hsivonen> | groups. I wish they had a CSS module or something." |
| 07:41 | <othermaciej> | maybe if you wish hard enough :-) |
| 07:45 | <Hixie> | i've been saying for some times that we should open a css branch |
| 07:47 | <hsivonen> | I found it interesting that some of the Apple CSS stuff got shipped on iPhone but not in desktop Safari |
| 07:51 | <vlad_> | anyone know if www-style allows posts from non-members? |
| 07:52 | <vlad_> | I'd like to reply in support of the apple CSS proposals being in-scope for the CSS WG, but fear for my inbox if I subscribe to www-style |
| 07:53 | <annevk> | vlad_, should be accepted |
| 07:53 | <vlad_> | sweet, thanks |
| 07:53 | <othermaciej> | vlad_: I subscribed at least temporarily |
| 07:54 | <othermaciej> | vlad_: and thanks for the support btw |
| 07:54 | <vlad_> | yeah, I guess I can just unsub later |
| 08:51 | <hsivonen> | http://www.adobe.com/products/player_census/flashplayer/ |
| 08:51 | <hsivonen> | can the SVG number be right? Firefox + Opera + Safari totalling under 10%? |
| 08:54 | <virtuelv> | hsivonen: it's possible to pull any number out of a random orifice if you work in marketing |
| 08:54 | <virtuelv> | http://www.adobe.com/products/player_census/methodology/ is quite telling |
| 08:55 | <virtuelv> | it's an opt-in survey |
| 08:55 | <hsivonen> | and tracking plug-in tech |
| 08:59 | <annevk> | they leave out HTML entirely... |
| 08:59 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 09:34 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: there are some people on older versions of Safari, Opera or Firefox, but certainly not over half |
| 10:39 | <annevk> | hmm, forgot to submit <form><p>...</form> as Acid3 test |
| 10:41 | <othermaciej> | annevk: who has a bug on that, and what is the bug? |
| 10:42 | <BenMillard> | annevk, the search box on Opera.com seems broken. A search for "chat" takes me here: http://www.opera.com/search/search.cgi?start=1&end=10&words=chat |
| 10:42 | <annevk> | Firefox ignores </form> |
| 10:47 | <annevk> | thanks BenMillard |
| 10:48 | <jgraham> | annevk: Oh that's quite bad. |
| 10:51 | <jgraham> | Out of interest, is it a known issue that Opera doesn't shrink table cells containing an image to the displayed width of the image but only to the pixel size? |
| 10:51 | <jgraham> | e.g. http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Ctable%20border%3D1%3E%0D%0A%3Ctd%3E%3Cimg%20height%3D40%20src%3Dimage%3E%0D%0A%3C%2Ftable%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%3EThe%20table%20should%20be%20narrower%20than%20the%20full%20image%20width%3C%2Fp%3E%0D%0A%3Cimg%20src%3Dimage%3E |
| 10:52 | jgraham | assumes this has been noticed before but doesn't know how to tell |
| 10:52 | <annevk> | i've no idea |
| 10:52 | <annevk> | I'd suggest you use https://bugs.opera.com/wizard/ |
| 10:53 | <jgraham> | OK |
| 10:53 | jgraham | is naturally disinclined from filing bugs without a way of checking for dupes |
| 10:59 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, I guess they check for dupes on your behalf? |
| 11:00 | <hsivonen> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2008JanMar/0083.html |
| 11:00 | <jgraham> | BenMillard: Sure, but I still don't like doing it |
| 11:01 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, that's understandable. I guess this approach works for them, though |
| 11:03 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: I guess my definition of clear is somewhat different from her's |
| 11:03 | <annevk> | it does work for us, though I agree it's not the best system for everyone |
| 11:05 | <BenMillard> | hsivonen, I'm not sure what is more interesting out of the content itself; the lack of punctuation; the errononeous punctuation; the lacking capitalisation; the irregular spacing of paragraphs; etc |
| 11:05 | <BenMillard> | especially bearing in mind the sensitivity to these things which text-to-speech adaptation tends to have |
| 11:06 | <BenMillard> | I suggest it was not a carefully thought out response |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/2008/03/19-webapi-minutes.html is public right? |
| 11:09 | <BenMillard> | annevk, that works for me |
| 11:09 | <annevk> | k, MS commits itself to implementing DOM Level 3 Events there |
| 11:10 | <annevk> | (and some more rambling on mousewheel which schepers apparently didn't tested as he told me he did...) |
| 13:37 | <shepazu> | hsivonen: it's a plug-in survey, not a survey of technology deployment... they are looking only at ASV, probably, not Firefox + Opera + Safari+(IE+SVG plugin) |
| 13:38 | <shepazu> | annevk: I did test, it's possible my test wasn't comprehensive or test all the right things |
| 13:43 | <hsivonen> | shepazu: hence, the survey gives a bogus picture of the technology deployment landscape |
| 13:44 | <shepazu> | hsivonen: no, Adobe would never do that |
| 13:45 | <shepazu> | you need to adjust your reality to match their findings |
| 13:46 | <shepazu> | now, that's not to say that Flash isn't more widely deployed than SVG |
| 13:46 | <shepazu> | it is |
| 13:46 | <shepazu> | just not as skewed as they present |
| 13:46 | <shepazu> | on desktops anyway |
| 13:46 | <hsivonen> | It'll be interesting to see what iPhone does to SVG vs. Flash deployment scenarios |
| 13:47 | <shepazu> | and if you bring mobiles onto the scene, SVG destroys FlashLite... on the order of 4 to 1, iirc |
| 13:47 | <shepazu> | iPhone numbers are tiny.... but influential |
| 13:47 | <hsivonen> | FlashLite is pointless (but so is walled-garden SVG) |
| 13:48 | <hsivonen> | I have no idea if my phone has some kind of SVG |
| 13:48 | <hsivonen> | it has FlashLite, but it is useless for browsing the Web |
| 13:48 | <shepazu> | I know mine doesn't... but it's 6 years old |
| 13:48 | <hsivonen> | I know WebKit on my phone doesn't have the SVG bits |
| 13:48 | <hsivonen> | Opera neither |
| 13:49 | <shepazu> | my phone was marketed to homo neanderalis |
| 13:55 | <Tayuke> | anyone know where I can find a website with website standards... |
| 13:55 | <Tayuke> | I can't come up with anything on Google.. |
| 14:26 | <Lachy> | heh, the xhtml2 wg are discussing whether or not DTDs and DOCTYPEs are necessary in their telcon. |
| 14:28 | <Lachy> | ... they still don't get it. |
| 14:31 | <shepazu> | Lachy: what do you mean? |
| 14:32 | <shepazu> | are you saying there aren't people and toolchains that rely on DTDs and DOCTYPEs, especially for authoring? |
| 14:36 | <itpastorn> | Opera devs around? I found a small bug: http://keryx.se/dev/acid3/red-green-dot.pdf and http://keryx.se/dev/acid3/bg-in-negative-margin.html |
| 14:38 | <annevk> | interesting |
| 14:38 | <annevk> | itpastorn, if you could file it that would be much appreciated https://bugs.opera.com/wizard/ |
| 14:38 | <itpastorn> | Should I file it? |
| 14:38 | <annevk> | :) |
| 14:39 | <itpastorn> | You are too fast for me! |
| 14:39 | <annevk> | btw, Opera post-Kestrel builds hit 98/100 on Acid3 |
| 14:39 | <itpastorn> | Source? (You know, for WP....) |
| 14:40 | <annevk> | my blog soonish... though I'm missing the screen shot at this poin |
| 14:40 | <itpastorn> | maybe this log... |
| 14:41 | <itpastorn> | OK, I have your blog in my feed aggregator (Thanks for all the stuff you've taught me BTW) |
| 14:42 | <itpastorn> | Any rendering issues? Do you download the AcidAhemTest font? |
| 14:42 | <itpastorn> | And my I ask what two tests that you still are missing? |
| 14:43 | <itpastorn> | my=may |
| 14:44 | <annevk> | we support @font-face |
| 14:47 | <hsivonen> | annevk: post-Kestrel? cross-platform? |
| 14:48 | <itpastorn> | Bug filed: 319878 |
| 14:49 | <annevk> | hsivonen, yes, dunno |
| 14:53 | <Lachy> | shepazu, their discussion was about whether or not their specs should require conforming documents to have doctypes and they wrongly claimed that validation would require a DTD |
| 14:54 | <annevk> | itpastorn, zcorpan tells me 'cursor' and data:,%20 are still failing |
| 14:54 | <shepazu> | maybe some of their target toolchains do require that, Lachy |
| 14:55 | <Lachy> | I didn't see any mention of specific tools in their discussion. |
| 14:55 | <Lachy> | but check the logs for yourself. http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/xhtml/20080326 |
| 14:56 | <shepazu> | why would they need to mention specific tools if it's understood? don't think you know everything that was said or understood because you read the logs, scribes are notoriously lax |
| 14:57 | <Lachy> | shepazu, I realise it's difficult to follow from the logs |
| 14:58 | <Lachy> | also, I never claimed to know everything |
| 14:58 | <shepazu> | your comment just seemed rather unfair and uncharitable |
| 14:59 | <itpastorn> | annevk: "cursor" and "data:,%20" - You are going to make me read the code again! Let's see. Test 47 and... 97? |
| 14:59 | <Lachy> | but, my interpretation of these logs seems fairly consistent with the results of past discussions. |
| 15:00 | <annevk> | itpastorn, yup |
| 15:01 | <shepazu> | Lachy, that's your interpretation, and I seriously doubt you're giving them the benefit of the doubt, even given their experiences |
| 15:01 | <hsivonen> | shepazu: folks from the XHTML2 WG have made some pretty wild assumptions of the need of DTDs in the past |
| 15:01 | <hsivonen> | assumtions that the XML community in general no longer shares |
| 15:04 | <shepazu> | and they are discussing removing that requirement... what's the problem? |
| 15:06 | <eseidel> | annevk: congrats :) |
| 15:07 | <shepazu> | just seems to me that they are damned if they do and damned if they don't, in your book... |
| 15:08 | <hsivonen> | shepazu: I was commenting on your assumptions about them considering tools. I don't make statements about damnedness. |
| 15:08 | <Lachy> | shepazu, it's good that they were discussing removing it. My issue is that some were arguing they should be kept |
| 15:09 | <shepazu> | hsivonen: I was replying to Lachy, not you |
| 15:09 | <hsivonen> | shepazu: ah. ok |
| 15:10 | <shepazu> | he'd made a derogatory statement about their discussion, calling them clueless, and I thought that was uncalled-for |
| 15:10 | <Lachy> | I never called them clueless |
| 15:11 | <Lachy> | (at least not today) |
| 15:11 | <shepazu> | but I guess this isn't my fight, I just wish there could be more positive discussion and less tension and infighting... we are all fighting against proprietary formats, after all |
| 15:11 | <shepazu> | "they still don't get it" reads to me as pretty much the same, Lachy |
| 15:12 | Philip` | isn't fighting against proprietary formats |
| 15:12 | <shepazu> | ok, all of us except Philip` ;) |
| 15:13 | <shepazu> | ok, well... me. :D |
| 15:13 | <Philip`> | I wouldn't mind a proprietary format that worked better for me than any alternatives :-) |
| 15:13 | <Lachy> | shepazu, no, it just means they fail to understand some of the issues related to DTDs and DOCTYPEs |
| 15:13 | <eseidel> | hum... sadly the latest opera snapshot won't even load google for me :( |
| 15:13 | Lachy | leaves |
| 15:13 | <shepazu> | ok, Lachy |
| 15:14 | <shepazu> | and by "they" I guess you didn't mean the group as a whole, just those select individuals |
| 15:14 | <shepazu> | glad to know you aren't being narrowminded |
| 15:15 | <annevk> | could you please stay friendly on this channel shepazu? |
| 15:16 | <shepazu> | sure, I'm happy to stay as friendly as everyone else, annevk |
| 15:18 | <shepazu> | sorry if you feel that defending people who aren't here to defend themselves is unfriendly |
| 15:26 | <annevk> | I think that "glad to know you aren't being narrowminded" and your last remark are rather unfriendly |
| 15:27 | <shepazu> | this channel seems pretty open to mockery, annevk |
| 15:27 | <shepazu> | am I incorrect in that assessment? |
| 15:28 | <itpastorn> | annevk: WP updated... Now I must go back to work. Thanks for the tip. |
| 15:28 | <shepazu> | are you asking me to match a different standard of behavior? |
| 15:51 | <gsnedders> | silly power cuts. |
| 16:32 | <hsivonen> | HTML 5 should probably say how the native semantics map to MSAA/IAccessible2/ATK/UX |
| 16:33 | <annevk2> | that'd be part of the rendering section |
| 16:34 | <annevk> | BenMillard, thanks, search is fixed |
| 16:37 | <jgraham_mibbit> | hsivonen: Alternatively that could go in a seperate, normative document |
| 16:38 | <jgraham_mibbit> | (dunno if that has significant advantages or not) |
| 16:38 | <hsivonen> | jgraham_mibbit: yeah, but given the ARIA situation, the features of HTML5 that are supposed to have accessibility benefits should be documented to have them with processing reqs |
| 16:38 | <annevk> | jgraham_mibbit, if someone is willing to edit :p |
| 16:40 | <hsivonen> | jgraham_mibbit: btw, it isn't just aria-level that doesn't have processing reqs. *none* of the states and properties come with processing reqs |
| 16:40 | <BenMillard> | annevk, yay :) |
| 16:41 | <BenMillard> | hsivonen, is this of any use: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA_UA_Best_Practices |
| 16:41 | annevk | normally uses "g site:opera.com bar" |
| 16:42 | <hsivonen> | BenMillard: that's the kind of stuff that I'd like to see in W3C docs |
| 16:42 | <annevk> | BenMillard, that's for ARIA, not HTML5 |
| 16:42 | <jgraham_mibbit> | hsivonen: Yeah, I had kind of noticed that aria is processing-requirment-deficient |
| 16:42 | <hsivonen> | BenMillard: so yes, that doc is useful, but by not having it in the ARIA spec, de facto normativeness is moved from the W3C doc to the Mozilla wiki. |
| 16:42 | <BenMillard> | hsivonen, I see |
| 16:43 | <BenMillard> | Aaron told me he wrote it about a week ago, and that it's a draft, so maybe there are plans to fold it in at some point |
| 16:49 | <zcorpan> | i'll still have to review that doc |
| 16:50 | <zcorpan> | making it a w3c doc has been discussed |
| 16:50 | <othermaciej> | I think the proposal was to make it a non-normative w3c doc which is possibly still a wiki |
| 16:51 | <hsivonen> | even if the API-specific stuff is better on a wiki, the spec still could have processing requirements without naming the concrete API identifiers |
| 16:51 | <zcorpan> | making it a rec-track document at this point is expected to slow down development of the doc |
| 16:51 | <zcorpan> | it can still become a rec-track document later on |
| 16:52 | <hsivonen> | I don't see the benefit of ARIA itself becoming a REC if as a REC it can't serve as a basis for interoperable implementations |
| 16:52 | <zcorpan> | me neither |
| 16:52 | <annevk> | From what I know the idea is to gather implementor feedback first until it's sort of done and then rubberstamp it. |
| 16:52 | <hsivonen> | that is, I think shipping interoperable software is more interesting that marking a spec done |
| 16:53 | <annevk> | re above ^^ |
| 16:53 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: agree |
| 16:58 | <hsivonen> | anyway, I think I'm going to take a second attempt at integrating ARIA into HTML5 on the document conformance level |
| 16:58 | <hsivonen> | since it now appears that aria-owns doesn't really arbitrarily reparent stuff |
| 17:14 | <hsivonen> | hmm. ARIA has script-managed alternatives for HTML5 contextmenu, draggable and irrelevent |
| 17:17 | Philip` | finds a bug in HTML5 |
| 17:17 | <Philip`> | People misspell 'irrelevant' |
| 17:18 | <Philip`> | Something like "inactive" would be less likely to go wrong |
| 17:18 | <annevk> | yeah, it should be renamed |
| 17:19 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: can irrelevent be misspelled by know knowing the spelling? or just typoing? |
| 17:19 | <hsivonen> | hah. I typoed it just there |
| 17:20 | <hsivonen> | anyway, it seems about as typoable as any word of that length |
| 17:21 | <annevk> | contextmenu is way easier |
| 17:21 | <annevk> | no confusing over double r/l or single, no e/a issue at the end |
| 17:21 | <annevk> | confusion, even |
| 17:21 | <hsivonen> | we might as well drop the semantic fig leaf and call it 'hidden' |
| 17:21 | <annevk> | Hixie claims it's not equivalent |
| 17:24 | <Philip`> | Why should we listen to him? |
| 17:24 | <BenMillard> | fwiw, irrelevant is a difficult word, even for an Englishman, for precisely the reasons Anne gives |
| 17:29 | <BenMillard> | Philip` and hsivonen, both inactive and hidden are easier than irrelevant for me |
| 17:31 | <webben> | latent maybe? |
| 17:31 | <virtuelv> | not that I think anyone'll miss it, but, http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/03/acid3-opera-98 |
| 17:33 | <BenMillard> | irrelevant seems to be about revealing new parts of a page which weren't relevant when the user originally visited the page |
| 17:34 | <BenMillard> | putting such things on a different page seems like a better idea to me |
| 17:35 | <zcorpan_> | in practice, having a different page is too cumbersome and authors instead just use display:none |
| 17:36 | <Philip`> | Disabling stylesheets on gmail.com was suggested as a demonstration where critical semantics of the page are only encoded in its CSS |
| 17:38 | <Philip`> | (and it seems it would be infeasible to split it into multiple pages, because that would destroy the performance) |
| 17:38 | <Philip`> | (hence it's good to have a way to encode the display:none semantics in HTML instead) |
| 17:38 | <BenMillard> | style="display:none;" |
| 17:40 | <Camaban_> | annevk: what's meant by 'post-Kestrel'? is it just internal build that isn't public yet? |
| 17:40 | <Philip`> | That doesn't help the hypothetical UAs that want to render sites like Gmail without having to implement CSS |
| 17:40 | Philip` | isn't sure it's actually solving a real problem |
| 17:41 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: in the past X-Smiles and Prince have supported style='' without supporting the cascade |
| 17:42 | <hsivonen> | IIRC Prince for SVG and X-Smiles for XForms |
| 17:42 | <annevk> | Camaban_, it means it won't be part of the Kestrel release |
| 17:44 | <zcorpan_> | i wonder if it would be feasable to just make style='display:none' mean irrelevant='' |
| 17:44 | <BenMillard> | irrelevant has some strange restrictions, such as not using it for tabbed views |
| 17:44 | <Camaban_> | annevk: ah, so this is part of dev for 10? or would we see it between 9.5 and 10? |
| 17:45 | <Philip`> | BenMillard: It's (arguably) not strange - the other tabs are still relevant to the current application state, they're just not visible in the current view |
| 17:46 | <BenMillard> | Philip`, authors are not going to care about such distinctions |
| 17:47 | <BenMillard> | if the user is viewing the tab about e.g. product specification, the other tabs are currently irrelevant to them |
| 17:47 | <annevk> | Camaban_, we'll see |
| 17:47 | <annevk> | Camaban_, it's likely there'll be a public build demonstrating it |
| 17:48 | <Philip`> | BenMillard: It does seem like a fairly subtle issue for authors to understand |
| 17:49 | <Philip`> | and I don't think practical experience of HTML gives much hope of authors getting subtleness right |
| 17:49 | <Camaban_> | annevk: ok, thanks, sorry, I realise answering those kinds of questions can lead to problems. I'd forgotten that Kestrel was just 9.5, that's fine |
| 17:52 | <BenMillard> | zcorpan, display:none by any means (not just style) could be given the semantics irrelevant has. some widgets change a class attribute rather than set a style attribute. hiding navigation in print preview is usually done by an external stylesheet. |
| 17:53 | <BenMillard> | (print preview is just a UA using media="print" so I think that should work) |
| 17:55 | <BenMillard> | in effect, I think irrelevant should be dropped. if something is hidden, it is obviously not relevant to the user at that time |
| 17:57 | <zcorpan_> | but css is (supposed to be) optional |
| 17:57 | <annevk> | Yet, lets not try to change fundamental assumptions about CSS |
| 17:57 | <annevk> | s/Yet/Yes/ |
| 17:59 | <BenMillard> | if those assumptions don't match what authors do, maybe they should change |
| 18:00 | <annevk> | maybe |
| 18:00 | <annevk> | I rather not |
| 18:01 | <zcorpan_> | ATs can't ignore css in order to be usable, i think |
| 18:02 | <BenMillard> | browsing the web visually without CSS is not really usable, either |
| 18:02 | <BenMillard> | unless you only browse our blogs :) |
| 18:03 | <zcorpan_> | i browse a lot of the web without css |
| 18:03 | <zcorpan_> | via feeds |
| 18:03 | <hsivonen> | optional technologies become de facto required over time |
| 18:10 | <Philip`> | zcorpan_: irrelevant is only useful for dynamic scripted applications, and you don't get those in feeds |
| 18:11 | <zcorpan_> | Philip`: true |
| 18:11 | <zcorpan_> | moreover, i get style='' applied in feeds |
| 18:24 | <hsivonen> | WIP: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/aria-html5-bis/ |
| 18:39 | <webben> | the point is (perhaps) less whether UAs should or shouldn't implement CSS, but whether it should be necessary to use publisher CSS to read a page. There are major disadvantages to forcing publisher CSS on users (because it's very hard to design a skin everyone can use, and very few people trye). |
| 18:39 | <webben> | *try |
| 18:39 | <webben> | and in practice, once you're allowed users to set their own skin, presentation has become separated from content and it doesn't really make much sense to require UA support of CSS. |
| 18:50 | <BenMillard> | webben, good point |
| 19:06 | <annevk> | small update: http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2008/03/26/opera-and-the-acid3-test |
| 19:06 | <annevk> | 100/100 |
| 19:06 | <annevk> | there's a small rendering glitch left |
| 19:07 | <hober> | wow, awesome |
| 19:54 | <itpastorn> | annevk: ping |
| 20:00 | <annevk> | yo |
| 20:00 | <itpastorn> | Do you think I could get Tim A's screenshot for WP? |
| 20:01 | <annevk> | I'd think so |
| 20:02 | <itpastorn> | Is he reachable? |
| 20:02 | <annevk> | @opera.com |
| 20:02 | <itpastorn> | firstname.lastname@ |
| 20:03 | <virtuelv> | itpastorn: the acid3 screenshot? |
| 20:03 | <itpastorn> | Yes |
| 20:04 | <virtuelv> | I doubt anyone will shoot you if you grab the full-screen version off of somewhere |
| 20:04 | <virtuelv> | I blogged it too |
| 20:04 | <virtuelv> | http://virtuelvis.com/download/2008/03/acid3/acid3_100.png |
| 20:04 | <hasather> | congrats all Opera people :) |
| 20:05 | <itpastorn> | WP has a strict liicense policy. If not explicitly CC or similar it will be removed. |
| 20:05 | <virtuelv> | bwah |
| 20:06 | <itpastorn> | is the last small rendering glitch visible? |
| 20:06 | <annevk> | itpastorn, no, firstname |
| 20:07 | <Hixie> | virtuelv: that is not a perfect pass, though it is a good step forward |
| 20:07 | <annevk> | we realize |
| 20:08 | <Hixie> | yeah, not sure virtuelv does though :-) |
| 20:08 | <virtuelv> | Hixie: I do realise |
| 20:08 | <virtuelv> | unfortunately, other people don't neccesarily realise that |
| 20:09 | <virtuelv> | (see the reddit headline, for instance) |
| 20:09 | <itpastorn> | virtualelv: Could you write a note on your blog that the image is CC? |
| 20:10 | <itpastorn> | In a comment perhaps. Derivative works must be allowed. |
| 20:10 | <hsivonen> | itpastorn: doesn't the English wikipedia allow graphical quotations as fair use? (IANAL, TINLA) |
| 20:11 | <virtuelv> | itpastorn: the screenshot is the exact same as Tim's |
| 20:11 | <virtuelv> | these are from some blessed developer's machine |
| 20:11 | <itpastorn> | better safe than sorry. I've gotten a load of grey hairs over the Acid3 article already |
| 20:15 | <virtuelv> | itpastorn: I believe Tim Altman's screenshot is already under a CC license |
| 20:15 | <virtuelv> | see footer on http://weblog.timaltman.com/ |
| 20:15 | <virtuelv> | and it's actually already on Wikipedia |
| 20:16 | <itpastorn> | Wrong one. Derivative must be allowed. |
| 20:17 | <Hixie> | really? |
| 20:17 | <Hixie> | that's surprising |
| 20:17 | <Hixie> | i approve, but i didn't realise wikipedia required that |
| 20:18 | <itpastorn> | Yeah, they do. I've been burned once because the W3C license was not allowed. |
| 20:18 | <virtuelv> | itpastorn: [Citation needed] |
| 20:19 | <itpastorn> | Hold on a second... |
| 20:20 | <itpastorn> | here is one of mine with license: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Osi-vz-ip-model.svg |
| 20:20 | <itpastorn> | Creative�Commons Attribution�ShareAlike�3.0�Unported |
| 20:21 | <itpastorn> | "Share alike" is not required |
| 20:22 | <annevk> | pff, would me saying here that it's under that license be enough? |
| 20:23 | <itpastorn> | Yeah, I suppose so |
| 20:24 | <Philip`> | What if I say here that it's copyrighted to me and nobody may use it for anything? |
| 20:24 | <itpastorn> | Then it's a matter of authority I guess... |
| 20:25 | Philip` | declares that he is authoritative |
| 20:27 | hsivonen | thought Hixie was the author of the visual appearance of the successful rendering |
| 20:27 | <hsivonen> | (IANAL, TINLA again) |
| 20:27 | <Hixie> | i honestly think that even talking about copyrighting anything relating to acid3 is bogus |
| 20:28 | <itpastorn> | I can't find the TINLA page |
| 20:28 | <Hixie> | since it's all about interoperability, which is fair use, etc |
| 20:29 | <itpastorn> | I'll go for the fair use argument |
| 20:30 | <hsivonen> | itpastorn: TINLA page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fair_Use |
| 20:32 | <annevk> | I asked if someone could put a share-alike notice on the my.opera.com blog post |
| 20:32 | <annevk> | Not sure when that'll happen given the local time in Europe |
| 20:32 | <annevk> | BTW: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc351024(VS.85).aspx |
| 20:33 | Philip` | will make his own browser that rips off WinGogi's UI and sell it for lots of money, once it is share-alike |
| 20:35 | <itpastorn> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fair_Use#Images point 6 applies to screenshots someone has made hi-/herself AFAIK |
| 20:36 | <itpastorn> | Local time in Europe is 21.40 and it is halftime between Sweden and Brazil (0-0) |
| 20:37 | <Philip`> | Depends which part of Europe you're in :-) |
| 20:40 | <itpastorn> | Opera folks? Suppose most of them would be in Norway... Same TZ as Sweden! It's those Fins that are a bit ahead (in Scandinavia) |
| 20:41 | <annevk> | and the British that are behind... |
| 20:42 | <itpastorn> | When I look at the images - where is the glitch? |
| 20:44 | <annevk> | after the first comma we need a space |
| 20:45 | <itpastorn> | Is that not *my* bug? ... |
| 20:46 | <annevk> | it is |
| 20:46 | <annevk> | well, yours was a duplicate |
| 20:46 | <annevk> | as it turned out |
| 20:47 | <itpastorn> | But I did find it on my own. And you have not got a public bug database... |
| 20:48 | <annevk> | we were happy with the report :) |
| 20:54 | <itpastorn> | BTW, someone has uploaded Tims image now. It wasn't me... |
| 20:59 | <Hixie> | i have blogged updates to acid3 |
| 20:59 | <Hixie> | ln.hixie.ch |
| 21:08 | <virtuelv> | Hixie: why am I only seeing Osama pictures from your automated flickr selection? |
| 21:08 | <Hixie> | ask flickr and yahoo |
| 21:13 | <itpastorn> | www.annevankesteren.nl Connection Interrupted The connection to the server was reset while the page was loading. |
| 21:14 | annevk | blames dreamhost |
| 21:14 | <a-ja> | annevk: acid3 congrats |
| 21:15 | <tomg> | yes |
| 21:15 | <tomg> | acid3 love |
| 21:16 | <a-ja> | annevk: /.'ed? |
| 21:16 | <annevk> | don't think so |
| 21:16 | <annevk> | that typically doesn't make it go down either |
| 21:16 | <Junyor> | itpastorn: you around? |
| 21:17 | <itpastorn> | Yep |
| 21:17 | <Junyor> | <- Tim Altman |
| 21:17 | <Hixie> | annevk: i replied to the xdr thing, i hope you can make use of my comments to once and for al put an end to this xdr nonsense |
| 21:17 | <itpastorn> | So I guessed |
| 21:17 | <Junyor> | what would be the appropriate license for the Opera Acid3 screenshot? |
| 21:18 | <itpastorn> | Someone has taken the law into his own hands and uploaded the image already |
| 21:18 | <annevk> | Hixie, next week or the week after I'll make the final edits to integrate the header proposal and declare it "done" |
| 21:18 | <annevk> | Hixie, thanks btw |
| 21:18 | <Hixie> | np |
| 21:18 | <itpastorn> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Operacid3.jpeg |
| 21:18 | <Hixie> | i think we need to move forward on xxx and get it to LC/CR asap |
| 21:18 | <Hixie> | to take the wind out of xdr's sails |
| 21:19 | <annevk> | yes |
| 21:19 | <Junyor> | itpastorn: I noticed. But I can make the full-size available under a CC license. Unfortunately, I'm not very familiar with the licenses, so I'm not sure what is appropriate |
| 21:19 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 21:19 | <Hixie> | ok, gotta go |
| 21:19 | <Hixie> | bbl |
| 21:19 | <Dashiva> | Did you get slashdotted, annevk? |
| 21:19 | <itpastorn> | Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 License. |
| 21:21 | <annevk> | Dashiva, I don't think so, it's just dreamhost |
| 21:21 | <annevk> | maybe I should register annevankesterenstatus.nl and host it somewhere else :p |
| 21:21 | <itpastorn> | Hixie gone? Sub pixels as in http://ejohn.org/blog/sub-pixel-problems-in-css/ ??? |
| 21:22 | <annevk> | yes |
| 21:23 | <itpastorn> | I hope the FFox way will be spec'd |
| 21:24 | <gsnedders> | itpastorn: which FF way? |
| 21:24 | <Junyor> | itpastorn: so, something like "This screenshot (and the screenshot it links to) are copyright Opera Software ASA and released under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 License" would be accurate? |
| 21:24 | <itpastorn> | gsnedders: Round some up and some down |
| 21:24 | <itpastorn> | Junyor: yes |
| 21:24 | <gsnedders> | itpastorn: at quick glance, FF 2 and 3 are quite different |
| 21:25 | <Junyor> | itpastorn: done |
| 21:25 | <Junyor> | http://weblog.timaltman.com/archive/2008/03/26/the-acid3-test |
| 21:26 | <itpastorn> | Thanks. I'll upload it to WP commons. |
| 21:26 | <Junyor> | yw |
| 21:27 | <itpastorn> | FFox 3 seems most natural to me. |
| 21:27 | gsnedders | thinks we need to start work on Acid4 now |
| 21:27 | <annevk> | /. are idiots: "Update: 03/26 21:21 GMT by Z : Safari is now at 100%, apparently, with Safari close behind at 98%." |
| 21:28 | <gsnedders> | annevk: what do you really expect of /. editors, though? |
| 21:28 | <itpastorn> | ./ idiots - no way! |
| 21:28 | <gsnedders> | they're good at living up to their reputation |
| 21:29 | <tomg> | haha |
| 21:37 | <virtuelv> | annevk: have you tried ssh-ing in to your server and looked at the load? |
| 21:38 | <annevk> | no |
| 21:39 | <annevk> | I don't know how that works :) |
| 21:39 | <itpastorn> | Out of battery - gotta go! (Brazil won -sigh!) |
| 21:41 | <Junyor> | itpastorn: regarding the Acid3 Wikipedia article, it now says the reference screenshot is the only possible correct rendering of the test, but that's not correct |
| 21:44 | <hsivonen> | are subpixel text rendering differences allowed or is there more permitted variability? |
| 21:45 | <andersca> | Hixie: I wonder if the cache would work well with multipart resources |
| 21:48 | <Pavlov_> | hsivonen: the reference for acid3 is a html page that uses whatever text rendering your browser renders it in |
| 21:49 | <Pavlov_> | one could argue you should require kerning |
| 21:49 | <Pavlov_> | but i don't think antialiasing should matter |
| 21:55 | <hsivonen> | Pavlov_: the text does say "pixel for pixel", though. |
| 21:56 | <Pavlov_> | pixel to pixel to the reference |
| 21:56 | <Pavlov_> | which you have to view in the same browser |
| 21:57 | <hsivonen> | whoa! I didn't realize the reference wasn't a bitmap :-) |
| 22:09 | <hsivonen> | which browser fails test 99 sanity? |
| 22:10 | <annevk> | IE |
| 22:11 | <hsivonen> | somehow I'm not surprised |
| 22:37 | <annevk> | MULTIFAIL, nice |
| 22:51 | <om_hack> | what's MULTIFAIL |
| 22:52 | <hasather> | om_hack: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/sampo-epic-multifail/ |
| 22:53 | <andersca_> | wow |
| 23:34 | <Hixie> | what itpastorn linked to is related to what acid3 used to test, but not quite the same |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | hmmmmmmm |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | ok |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | so |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | custom data |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | as in, here's an html element, but it represents something |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | e.g. in a game, it represents a spaceship |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | and the spaceship has certain properties |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | like shield strength or whatever |
| 23:38 | <annevk> | <spaceship> |
| 23:38 | <annevk> | oh |
| 23:38 | <annevk> | role=spaceship |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | well, we have class=spaceship |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | which i think is file |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | fine |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | even |
| 23:39 | annevk | was joking |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | but that doesn't let you specify values |
| 23:39 | <annevk> | the second time, that is |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | <div custom:shields=20> |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | with custom: attributes going into http://www.w3.org/ns/private-use-area automatically |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | <div custom-shields=20> |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | with no namespaces, just a prefix |
| 23:41 | <Hixie> | the namespaces are good because they work well in svg and mathml too |
| 23:41 | <Hixie> | the prefix is good because it gives compat with legacy UAs in the DOM APIs |
| 23:41 | <annevk> | and can be made to work with SVG and MathML as well |
| 23:41 | <annevk> | they should become more unified anyway |
| 23:42 | <annevk> | class=/style= processing, for instance |
| 23:49 | <Philip`> | Or <div -custom-shields=20> because that's more like the normal non-standard extension syntax in some places |
| 23:50 | <annevk> | but this is a standard extension syntax :) |
| 23:50 | <Philip`> | That's '(non-standard extension) syntax', not 'non-standard (extension syntax)' :-) |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | what anne said |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | maybe |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | i don't think i want this confused with vendor extensions though |
| 23:50 | <Philip`> | The extensions themselves are always going to be non-standard |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | i like the colon in this context, i have to say |
| 23:53 | <Philip`> | If it's using namespaces, I hope getAttribute('custom:shields') would still work, since I'd be too lazy to look up the namespace name and remember the getAttributeNS argument order so I'd just use custom-shields instead |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | it wouldn't work |
| 23:53 | <Philip`> | Oh |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | i don't know that the svg and math groups would like us just littering all their schemas with custom- attributes |
| 23:57 | <Hixie> | i suppose we could make the custom namespace be something simple |
| 23:57 | <Hixie> | like 'custom' |
| 23:57 | jgraham__ | fears the colon |
| 23:57 | <Hixie> | or 'pua' |
| 23:58 | <Hixie> | and blow the whole "must be a uri!" malarky |
| 23:58 | <annevk> | introducing colons in HTML is a bikeshed |
| 23:58 | <jgraham__> | (but only because I think people will expect full namesspaces-in-xml to work in html) |
| 23:58 | <Hixie> | i don't think introducing colons in HTML is a bikeshed in the original meaning of the term |
| 23:58 | <Hixie> | jgraham__: they'll be sadly disappointed |
| 23:58 | <annevk> | i admit defeat :) |
| 23:59 | <gsnedders> | I. want. green. |
| 23:59 | <annevk> | though I don't like it at all as it makes setAttribute() more complex etc. |
| 23:59 | <Philip`> | A bikeshed is just something that you've decided is wrong but don't have a compelling argument for :-) |
