| 00:06 | <Philip`> | http://chrome.blogspot.com/2011/08/building-better-web-apps-with-new.html - is that NaCl and not PNaCl, so they're not even pretending to be CPU-architecture-independent? |
| 00:14 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: NaCL, AIUI |
| 00:15 | <Hixie> | seems that way. "Native Client modules are operating system independent, not (yet) processor independent. Therefore, you must compile separate versions of the Native Client module for x86-32-bit, x86-64-bit, and other instruction sets. The manifest file, specified in the src attribute of the <embed> tag, specifies which version of the Native Client module to load, depending on the end-user's processor." - ... |
| 00:15 | <Hixie> | ... http://code.google.com/chrome/nativeclient/docs/technical_overview.html |
| 00:15 | Hixie | raises an eyebrow at the irssi module he apparently set up |
| 00:15 | <Hixie> | neat |
| 00:16 | <wilhelm> | splitlong ftw. |
| 00:58 | <gsnedders> | http://googleonlinesecurity.blogspot.com/2011/08/fuzzing-at-scale.html?m=1 |
| 03:20 | <heycam> | Hixie, sorry ;) |
| 03:21 | <heycam> | Hixie, you could subscribe to member-webapi-cvs or whatever it's called |
| 03:33 | <Hixie> | hm, i thought i had |
| 03:34 | <heycam> | ah so it never got added to the spec as [NonConfigurable] |
| 03:34 | <Hixie> | oh, right, i didn't because it was so noisy (lots of widget stuff and stuff about stuff i do) |
| 03:34 | <heycam> | procmailrc is your friend :) |
| 03:34 | <Hixie> | or equivalent, yeah |
| 03:35 | <Hixie> | well let's subscribe and add filters as i get tired |
| 06:40 | <Hixie> | ...you can't take a screenshot of dvd player on mac. wtf. |
| 06:57 | <Rik`> | Hixie: vlc should be ok |
| 06:59 | <gesa> | HAHAHA You can, it just shows a photoshop-esque transparency grid. WTF. |
| 07:02 | <Hixie> | Rik`: i just ended up taking a screen shot of screen sharing on another machine looking at this one... |
| 07:03 | <Rik`> | if you want other stupid things with dvd player : http://www.hardmac.com/news/2008/12/19/use-dvdplayer-5-0-3-with-an-external-reader |
| 07:03 | <gesa> | Hixie: Now that's solution finding... |
| 07:04 | <Rik`> | I like the fact that it's by only using software that Apple ships |
| 07:04 | <Hixie> | i was going to screen share to another machine then screen share from that one back, so i could do it all without getting up, but for some reason i can't screen share in that direction at the moment. some configuration issue. |
| 07:20 | <Hixie> | wow now i've got dvd player in a completely wacked state where it's in full-screen mode, but the video is playing in a window UI... wtf |
| 07:20 | <Hixie> | and it pauses if i switch to the space with the dvd player but works fine if i switch to another |
| 07:21 | <Hixie> | jesus |
| 07:21 | <Hixie> | time for a reboot? |
| 07:21 | <gesa> | so.... window on black background? Wait wait, let me guess, you're on Lion? |
| 07:21 | <Hixie> | the background is actually lion's weird fabric background! |
| 07:21 | <gesa> | Time for a reboot. |
| 07:21 | gesa | is feeling pretty smug for waiting til 10.7.1 ships for an upgrade |
| 07:21 | <Hixie> | ok now the mission control thingy has stopped responding. |
| 07:21 | <Hixie> | definitely rebooting. |
| 07:22 | <Hixie> | yeah lion is pretty damn buggy |
| 07:22 | <gesa> | <-- former Apple employee. I learned things. |
| 07:22 | <gesa> | (Patience, that is.) |
| 08:10 | <Hixie> | rebooting worked a charm. |
| 08:10 | <Hixie> | of course at the same time the trackpad's batteries died. |
| 08:11 | <Hixie> | and lion with a mouse isn't pleasant. |
| 09:15 | <annevk> | zcorpan, complete/ is generated on html5.org |
| 09:16 | <annevk> | I'm not sure if I published the splitter script I use somewhere, but that would have to be updated to whatever Philip` updated it to I suppose |
| 09:16 | <annevk> | We should get rid of the /html /C distinction anyway |
| 10:34 | <annevk> | http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-http-new-status status code for captive portals... |
| 10:34 | <annevk> | I wonder if that'll get traction |
| 10:47 | <annevk> | ooh |
| 10:47 | <annevk> | almost have my first W3C REC |
| 10:48 | <GlitchMr> | I love how XHTML5 cannot be used with text/html :). |
| 10:49 | <GlitchMr> | (technically, XHTML1.1 also couldn't be used, but some did pages with XHTML1.1 DOCTYPE and text/html) |
| 10:50 | <annevk> | I know I did |
| 10:51 | <GlitchMr> | Wait... so <a href=#> is valid HTML5? |
| 10:52 | <GlitchMr> | I through that in HTML only [a-zA-Z0-9_.-] could be unquoted... I read specification and I learn new things... |
| 10:54 | <annevk> | HTML5 is a bit more flexible |
| 10:54 | <Ms2ger> | Hah, I did XHTML1.1 with application/xhtml+xml |
| 10:55 | <GlitchMr> | That's good :) |
| 10:55 | <GlitchMr> | It annoys me to see XHTML DOCTYPE and text/html |
| 10:56 | <GlitchMr> | If sites say text/html, that means they're HTML. But using /> is invalid HTML (I don't count HTML5, it's different thing). |
| 10:57 | <GlitchMr> | Hi, Amorphous |
| 10:57 | <Ms2ger> | It's conforming WHATWG HTML in any case |
| 10:57 | <annevk> | Got to love that DOM Views thread |
| 10:58 | <Ms2ger> | And MS |
| 10:58 | <annevk> | The WebApps WG decided somewhere in 2009 to add a note to that document and Ian Jacobs back then said it was okay |
| 10:58 | <annevk> | Then I finally got around to it and we had to rescind it instead |
| 10:58 | <annevk> | Now it is okay again |
| 10:58 | <annevk> | And MS is acting silly as a bonus |
| 10:59 | <GlitchMr> | IE9 doesn't fail on errors in application/xhtml+xml. Kinda weird... |
| 11:01 | <annevk> | "Therefore we have rejected this issue and retained the scroll event as a UIEvent." |
| 11:01 | <annevk> | DOM Level 3 Events is such a disaster |
| 11:02 | <Ms2ger> | Noticed their dependency on HTML5? |
| 11:03 | <annevk> | haha but not Web IDL? |
| 11:03 | <annevk> | classic |
| 11:04 | <Ms2ger> | But they actually claim it's informative |
| 11:04 | <annevk> | of course |
| 11:11 | <annevk> | I wonder if it is worth fighting DOM3Events or whether I should focus on something else |
| 11:12 | <annevk> | The reasoning Microsoft gives is often very bad, but nobody else seems to care |
| 11:25 | <roc> | I think smaug cares |
| 11:35 | <annevk> | I think he might attend the teleconferences yes |
| 11:35 | <annevk> | I really wonder though how he would agree to things like |
| 11:35 | <annevk> | "We agreed that the scroll event fits as a UIEvent from a taxonomy standpoint." |
| 11:35 | <annevk> | As he normally is quite opposed to useless cruft |
| 11:35 | <annevk> | So either he is not paying much attention or something else is going on |
| 11:50 | <annevk> | By the way, thanks Ms2ger and AryehGregor for replying on the DOM Core thread |
| 11:51 | <annevk> | AryehGregor, merging in Range is already listed as open issue, I'm not in a hurry to actually do it quite yet though |
| 11:51 | <roc> | talk to him |
| 12:14 | <annevk> | createElementNS("http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";, "TABLE") |
| 12:15 | <annevk> | HTMLUnknownElement yay |
| 12:23 | <Ms2ger> | WebKit implemented HTMLUnknownElement recently |
| 12:38 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, any idea on how to implement http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest-2/xhr-source using --filter instead? |
| 12:38 | <annevk> | Would be kind of nice to just use the Makefile |
| 12:41 | <Ms2ger> | ...For the last Last Call Working Draft < Heh |
| 12:46 | <Ms2ger> | Shouldn't be too hard, I think |
| 12:46 | <Ms2ger> | Or you can run your script from the Makefile |
| 12:51 | <annevk> | That's an interesting idea |
| 12:58 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: Interseting. I know othermaciej was against it — though never got around to writing anything objecting to it as he said he would. |
| 12:58 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/2010/html-xml/2011/08/09-minutes#item05 :) |
| 13:00 | <gsnedders> | Still sad the reason why it had to get into the spec. :( (The only mostly standards based code-path on Yahoo Mail is the Gecko one — both the WebKit and IE ones rely on non-standard stuff — so for any other browser to be competitive you have to implement the only-just-being-specced HTMLUnknownElement, XMLParser, and DOMSerializer, and change your UA string to pretend to be Firefox.) |
| 13:00 | <gsnedders> | (And people care about Yahoo Mail, so you have to support one of their three browser-specific code-paths) |
| 13:03 | <roc> | what non-standard stuff does the Webkit code path use? |
| 13:03 | <gsnedders> | roc: I forget — it was quite a long time since I looked at it |
| 13:14 | <gsnedders> | roc: Digging through bugs, I think it was relying on things like exact innerHTML serialization, random edge-cases around ranges. |
| 13:14 | <gsnedders> | (And, uh, it appears what eventually launched at the new Yahoo Mail supports us, if I understand correctly.) |
| 13:15 | <roc> | we should be able to get around those issues as the specs tighten up and Webkit fixes their bugs |
| 13:15 | <gsnedders> | roc: Yeah, indeed |
| 13:15 | <roc> | I'd be more worried if they were using Webkit-prefixed features or Web SQL DB or something |
| 13:16 | <gsnedders> | roc: We support Web SQL DB, so I probably wouldn't have noticed. |
| 13:16 | <roc> | *I'd* have been more worried :-) |
| 13:16 | <gsnedders> | roc: And it's entirely possible they are using WebKit-prefixed stuff in their WebKit branch. Certainly something Google does. |
| 13:16 | <gsnedders> | roc: Even though they give you a codepath for your engine? :) |
| 13:17 | <gsnedders> | roc: And I presume the Gecko codepath doesn't have WebKit-prefixed stuff. :) |
| 13:17 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders, we care about the web, not just about Gecko ;) |
| 13:17 | <roc> | exacxtly! |
| 13:17 | <gsnedders> | Then I should start telling you about Google stuff. |
| 13:18 | <Ms2ger> | What, NaCl? |
| 13:19 | <gsnedders> | Most things have four code-paths: an IE one relying upon loads of IE bugs; a Gecko one using lots of Gecko-prefixed stuff; a WebKit one using lots of WebKit-prefixed stuff; and an Opera one using lots of Opera-prefixed stuff (and historically relying upon random bugs too, though we've managed to get rid of the worst of that to fix the bugs). |
| 13:19 | <gsnedders> | If you want to bring a new engine to market, you're pretty much fucked by Google. |
| 13:20 | <Ms2ger> | There is Opera-prefixed stuff? I thought you guys never got around to implementing something before everyone dropped prefixes? ;) |
| 13:23 | <annevk> | Wait, is this the reverse joke from we did everything back in 95? |
| 13:37 | <roc> | Ms2ger has a mean streak |
| 13:37 | Ms2ger | bows |
| 15:24 | <annevk> | oh yay |
| 15:25 | <annevk> | XMLHttpRequest was already correct with respect to fetch and asynchronously returning |
| 15:37 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, did you move the XMLHttpRequest test suite? |
| 15:37 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, http://test.w3.org/webapps/tests/XMLHttpRequest/info.htm no longer being a valid link is annoying |
| 15:43 | <Ms2ger> | Yes, I think I did |
| 15:43 | <Ms2ger> | I can fix |
| 15:49 | <annevk> | Not that anyone complained by the way |
| 15:49 | <annevk> | I wonder how many people noticed |
| 16:04 | <annevk> | I keep discovering new fun issues in DOM Level 3 Events |
| 16:04 | <annevk> | ECMAScript is a reference but never referenced |
| 16:04 | <annevk> | The mapping of OMG IDL to ECMAScript is not defined |
| 16:05 | <annevk> | It talks about a PostScript version which does not exist, subsection of appendix G is labeled F, etc. |
| 16:05 | <annevk> | I think DOM Level 3 Events is a fine example of monkeypatching |
| 16:11 | <annevk> | Can someone change http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Research&redirect=no so that it does not appear in the Proposals category? |
| 16:16 | <Dashiva> | I think it's supposed to be [[:Category:Proposals]] |
| 16:43 | <gsnedders> | annevk: Is there a testsuite for DOM Level 3 Events? |
| 16:43 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders, a mostly manual one |
| 16:44 | <Ms2ger> | http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/file/tip/DOMEvents |
| 16:44 | <annevk> | thanks Dashiva |
| 16:44 | <gsnedders> | Because, although I know it's trolling, I'm so tempted to send feedback saying, "What defines that there is a createEvent property on this object? The IDL states there is something on the interface, but doesn't define that is actually exposed as a property." |
| 16:45 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders, are you prepared to get an email back next year saying that that's intentional? |
| 16:46 | <Ms2ger> | Or that it's defined by the informative WebIDL appendix |
| 16:46 | <gsnedders> | "Please document that you are relying upon the informative appendix for the testsuite." |
| 16:47 | <Ms2ger> | No. Our customers rely on the stability of our tests, not on their correctness. |
| 16:48 | <gsnedders> | (Basically following the reducio ad absurdum route of making them call-out their only way to test their spec is by relying upon non-standard behaviour.) |
| 16:49 | <Ms2ger> | Sure |
| 16:49 | <Ms2ger> | Is it worth your time? |
| 16:50 | <gsnedders> | No. Not at all. |
| 16:50 | <gsnedders> | There's going to be interop because everyone will follow the informative appendix. |
| 16:51 | <Ms2ger> | "OpenClass - HTML 5 Workshop (Supported by Opera Software)" |
| 16:51 | <Ms2ger> | What? |
| 16:51 | <Ms2ger> | "Use this area to offer a short teaser of your email's content. Text here |
| 16:51 | <Ms2ger> | will show in the preview area of some email clients." |
| 16:53 | <gsnedders> | What? |
| 16:56 | <Ms2ger> | One isn't expected to read that email in plain text mode |
| 16:59 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, I got that much, |
| 16:59 | <gsnedders> | Just… what? |
| 19:52 | <jarek> | Hi |
| 19:52 | <gesa> | Hi. |
| 19:53 | <jarek> | do you know of any compatability tables that would show which CSS featues are supported on mobiles? |
| 19:53 | <paul_irish> | http://caniuse.com is pretty good at that |
| 19:53 | <jarek> | I mean something like http://caniuse.com/, but with mobile browsers |
| 19:53 | <paul_irish> | it has mobile browsers |
| 19:54 | <gesa> | Yeah, far right column iirc |
| 19:54 | <jarek> | oh wait, indeed... |
| 22:07 | <jarek> | what's the proper english term for describing the page area that is visible after load witout scrolling? |
| 22:07 | <gesa> | above the fold? |
| 22:09 | <jarek> | hmm… how about "fold area"? Would this still have the same meaning? |
| 22:09 | <gesa> | not entirely. what's the context? |
| 22:10 | <jarek> | uhm… it's a big complicated |
| 22:10 | <gesa> | "initial view"? |
| 22:10 | <jarek> | I have an app that shows a preview of the website, I would like to put a horizontal line in the place where page fold is |
| 22:11 | <Philip`> | http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/fold.php seems to use "first fold" |
| 22:11 | <jarek> | now I would like to toggle this feature via menu, but I don't know how to call it :) |
| 22:13 | <jarek> | Philip: thanks! |