| 03:29 | <heycam> | I'm wondering if there's any reason that the Function interface defined in the spec, which takes (any... args), is used for event handler attributes rather than something that takes say (Event event) |
| 03:29 | <heycam> | are there cases where those functions will be invoked with other arguments? |
| 04:22 | <Hixie> | heycam: yes, e.g. onerror's arguments array has length 3 |
| 04:23 | <Hixie> | heycam: also you can pass any function to an event handler attribute, not just one with a single argument |
| 04:32 | <heycam> | Hixie, ok. maybe onerror should be a different type? maybe it's not worth it. |
| 04:33 | <Hixie> | what practical difference does it make? |
| 04:33 | <heycam> | none, just helpers readers of the spec know what type of values are going to be passed to the function |
| 04:34 | <Hixie> | *shrug* |
| 04:34 | <heycam> | you do have some other callback interface function things in the spec |
| 04:34 | <Hixie> | true |
| 04:34 | <heycam> | anyway, not important |
| 08:41 | <asmodai> | Anyone got insight on this (acquaintance of mine asking): http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7183196/negotiating-a-websocket-in-c-chrome-connecting-to-unity-c-tcp-client |
| 08:51 | <zcorpan> | asmodai: doesn't chrome implement the new spec these days? |
| 08:52 | <zcorpan> | guess it doesn't seem so from the dump |
| 08:53 | zcorpan | wonders why origin is null |
| 08:54 | <zcorpan> | asmodai: the request doesn't include a subprotocol but the response does |
| 08:54 | <zcorpan> | asmodai: i think that should be fine per spec but maybe chrome has a bug there? |
| 08:57 | <zcorpan> | asmodai: i'd recommend testing opera (enable in opera:config) and checking error console |
| 08:57 | <asmodai> | zcorpan: Not sure -- I also tossed it to a friend who is a chrome dev nowadays |
| 08:57 | <asmodai> | zcorpan: Opera 11.50 ought to be ok? |
| 08:57 | <zcorpan> | yeah 11.00 and up |
| 08:58 | <zcorpan> | why his dump has origin:null i don't know. is he testing from file:/// or something? |
| 09:00 | <asmodai> | "At the moment yes testing from file:/// is that likely to cause issues?" |
| 09:00 | zcorpan | hasn't thought about the security model with opening a websocket from file:/// |
| 09:00 | <zcorpan> | it could be that chrome doesn't allow opening a connection for null origins |
| 09:03 | <zcorpan> | bbiab |
| 09:06 | <asmodai> | zcorpan: yea |
| 11:20 | <zcorpan> | hmm, how do i reply to the gray messages between the post and the answers in http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7183196/negotiating-a-websocket-in-c-chrome-connecting-to-unity-c-tcp-client ? |
| 11:21 | <Ms2ger> | "add comment" |
| 11:21 | <Ms2ger> | (You need to be logged in to see that) |
| 11:22 | <zcorpan> | i'm logged in. i only see that on the answers |
| 11:25 | <zcorpan> | *shrug* |
| 11:30 | <Philip`> | Do you need some minimum number of Stack Overflow magic beans to be allowed to do that? |
| 11:31 | <Philip`> | http://stackoverflow.com/privileges/comment |
| 11:34 | <zcorpan> | Reputation Required |
| 11:34 | <zcorpan> | 50 |
| 11:41 | <Ms2ger> | "If the character indicated by position (the first character)" |
| 11:56 | <asmodai> | zcorpan: ta |
| 11:56 | <asmodai> | zcorpan: upvoted ;) |
| 12:57 | <zcorpan> | http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13891 - who's Annie? |
| 12:58 | <Ms2ger> | A woman?! ;) |
| 13:01 | <zcorpan> | is she a mozilla guy? er, girl? |
| 15:03 | <benjoffe> | was trying to look for good examples of sites that work well in both rtl and ltr, hard to find them (example include google, wikipedia, facebook, reddit (barely), bbc, cnn, un) |
| 15:03 | <benjoffe> | anyone know of any list of good examples? |
| 15:05 | <Rik`_> | benjoffe: mozilla.com ? |
| 15:05 | <Rik`> | or at least, I hope so :) |
| 15:07 | <benjoffe> | Rik`: seems their front page works in rtl, but any of the pages with much content seem to revert to english, eg http://www.mozilla.org/ar/firefox/features/ |
| 15:08 | <Rik`> | benjoffe: well that's because the contributors have not translated it yet |
| 15:09 | <benjoffe> | hmm the addons site is okay in arabic |
| 15:18 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: Any idea how up to date http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/format is? In particular is there a CSS3 version of that page? |
| 15:19 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, up to date, AUIU |
| 15:19 | <Ms2ger> | AIUI, even |
| 15:21 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: It doesn't mention the fact the CSS3 tests must be reftests afaict |
| 15:21 | <Ms2ger> | Mm, right |
| 15:21 | <Ms2ger> | And self-describing reftests, unfortunately |
| 15:21 | <jgraham> | Is there some general page I can point people at for "everyhting one needs to know to write a CSS test that will be accepted" |
| 15:22 | <astearns> | but it does have the current reference link info for reftests |
| 15:23 | jgraham | notes that the amount of metadata required for CSS tests makes them way more budensome to submit than HTMLWG tests |
| 15:23 | <astearns> | how about the first link on that page? http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/guidelines.html |
| 15:25 | <jgraham> | astearns: That link is also wrong |
| 15:25 | <astearns> | in what way? |
| 15:26 | <jgraham> | Insofar as it doesn't say "Tests accepted by CSSWG will meet the following criteria: a) They will be self describing reftests b) etc." |
| 15:26 | <jgraham> | It's basically a document about how to write good visual tests |
| 15:27 | <Ms2ger> | a) They will be self describing reftests or b) they will be written by MS? |
| 15:27 | <jgraham> | (excuse the oxymoron) |
| 15:30 | <astearns> | hmm - there's a page describing how to write a reftest, but I don't see anything that says they're required |
| 15:31 | <astearns> | I do believe they are meant to be required. I'll send a note to css-testsuite confirming that |
| 16:19 | <karlcow> | mwahaha "The WHATWG does point to a ray of hope for extended namespaces in HTML5 that has been largely blocked by W3C" — http://www.readwriteweb.com/hack/2011/08/whos-validating-the-validators.php |
| 16:22 | <zcorpan> | "Fourteen of Alexa's top 25 sites list HTML5 as their doctypes, he noted." |
| 16:22 | <zcorpan> | not bad |
| 16:23 | <jgraham> | So I was just thinking http://joshduck.com/periodic-table.html was quite cool. Then I noticed the W3 Schools links |
| 16:24 | <kennyluck> | sigh |
| 16:26 | zcorpan | pings him on twitter |
| 16:32 | <zcorpan> | karlcow: that article seems utterly uninformed |
| 16:33 | <Ms2ger> | "a professional technologist who personally contributed to the RSS specification" |
| 16:33 | <Ms2ger> | Now that's something I wouldn't admit to |
| 16:34 | <miketaylr> | "Today, there is no punishment for non-compliance" maybe time for a Punishment Community Group? |
| 16:37 | <karlcow> | zcorpan: yup definitely |
| 16:37 | <karlcow> | if tristan louis is on the channel :) |
| 16:38 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: The only question is "which one"? |
| 16:38 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 16:38 | <Ms2ger> | Mm? |
| 16:38 | <jgraham> | 10:36 < Ms2ger> "a professional technologist who personally contributed to the RSS specification" |
| 16:39 | <jgraham> | Although put like that it sounds like the start of a play |
| 16:39 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger - a professional technologist who personally contributed to the RSS specification |
| 16:39 | <jgraham> | Hixie - a Capulet |
| 16:40 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham - A doctor? |
| 16:42 | <jgraham> | Although having dglazkov here I feel it is more like Beckett than Shakespeare |
| 16:43 | <jgraham> | Or at the very least Tom Stoppard |
| 16:46 | Ms2ger | curses tests |
| 17:04 | <jgraham> | The colour scheme on the blog really is awful |
| 17:04 | <jgraham> | Isn't anyone with design sense interested in HTML? |
| 17:04 | <jgraham> | Failing that could we just delete the light green bar thing? |
| 17:07 | <nimbu> | are we talking about whatwg blog? |
| 17:08 | <jgraham> | Yes |
| 17:12 | <nimbu> | i can take a stab at it. |
| 17:12 | <nimbu> | that ugly neon green line needs to go |
| 17:12 | <jgraham> | Yes |
| 17:12 | <nimbu> | how can I work on it? |
| 17:14 | <nimbu> | i can ask anne when I meet him next week. |
| 17:15 | <jgraham> | You just need an account |
| 17:16 | <nimbu> | i also want access to the theme I suppose :P |
| 17:16 | <jgraham> | Yeah, dunno what level of permissions you need for access to that |
| 17:17 | <jgraham> | I can change it |
| 17:17 | <jgraham> | Do you have an account at all? |
| 17:17 | <dglazkov> | can you make the font more pretty? I really like comic sans. It's friendly. |
| 17:18 | <nimbu> | jgraham: def not |
| 17:18 | nimbu | glowers at dglazkov |
| 17:18 | <dglazkov> | :D |
| 17:18 | <Ms2ger> | I should ban you for that :) |
| 17:18 | <dglazkov> | and we need more pictures. Smiling people. |
| 17:18 | <nimbu> | i will just make sure you never get access to editing the theme dglazkov |
| 17:19 | <Philip`> | Make sure it uses @font-face so the page loads twice as slowly and looks ugly because the font wasn't tested on my platform |
| 17:19 | <nimbu> | smiling in face of apocalypse |
| 17:19 | <dglazkov> | nimbu: the best way to test for design experience is to ask questions like this and look for eyelid twitches |
| 17:20 | <Ms2ger> | Linux Libertine? |
| 17:20 | <nimbu> | dglazkov: it would be more than that for me |
| 17:20 | <jgraham> | nimbu: I can set you up with an account if you like |
| 17:20 | <jgraham> | Alternatively give me some CSS and I can paste it in |
| 17:21 | <nimbu> | jgraham: o that would work too. I will tweak in a bit. |
| 17:21 | <nimbu> | and link it up here. |
| 17:22 | <jgraham> | Perfect |
| 18:10 | <timeless> | heycam|away: i'l have more comments, sorry :) |
| 18:10 | <timeless> | Word isn't done :) |
| 18:12 | <Ms2ger> | Done crashing? |
| 18:19 | <nimbu> | jgraham: https://raw.github.com/gist/1171203/3d1dc9d34119ab94092981220252e004dde5895f/style.css |
| 18:19 | <nimbu> | (i hope you can test by just linking to that) |
| 18:25 | <Ms2ger> | pre { font-family:Verdana, sans-serif } |
| 18:28 | <Hixie> | ok seriously |
| 18:28 | <Hixie> | how hard can it be to understand that first we figure out what problem we're trying to solve |
| 18:28 | <nimbu> | Ms2ger: i just cleaned it up a bit. |
| 18:28 | <Hixie> | and THEN we look at possible solutions? |
| 18:28 | <nimbu> | Ms2ger: i did not touch the fonts :P |
| 18:29 | <Ms2ger> | Hixie, I think we need a "proposal" element for that |
| 18:30 | <MacTed> | but I have a hammer! you *must* be able to frame your problem as a nail... |
| 18:31 | <Ms2ger> | MacTed, no, I want browsers to give me a hammer |
| 19:01 | <timeless> | Ms2ger: hey, heycam's spec only crashed Word *once*! :) |
| 19:01 | <timeless> | oh, i met AryehGregor this morning |
| 19:02 | <Ms2ger> | timeless, so are you the mentioned Annie?! :) |
| 19:03 | <timeless> | no, but i kinda met (at least saw her) |
| 19:03 | <timeless> | i think i even tried to introduce myself |
| 19:04 | <Ms2ger> | So, who is she? |
| 19:04 | <timeless> | she worked on Google Docs |
| 19:05 | <timeless> | and thus is more or less representing their interests |
| 19:05 | <timeless> | in things, like e.g. context menus |
| 19:05 | <timeless> | or clipboard |
| 19:05 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, an Author |
| 19:05 | <timeless> | or anything else |
| 19:05 | <timeless> | hrm |
| 19:05 | <timeless> | sure |
| 19:05 | timeless | goes back to Word |
| 19:05 | timeless | doesn't think google docs has a grammar checker |
| 19:10 | <timeless> | ooh, Word is now spell checking the contributors list |
| 19:10 | <Ms2ger> | I bet it doesn't like me |
| 19:10 | <timeless> | actually, it's fine w/ you |
| 19:11 | <timeless> | it didn't mind Shiki but objected to Okasaka fwiw |
| 19:11 | <timeless> | (and had issues w/ both non latin words) |
| 19:13 | <timeless> | how do i search a mailing list? :) |
| 19:14 | timeless | switches to gmail |
| 19:14 | <smaug____> | whaaat, disabling Google instant doesn't disable previews anymore :/ |
| 19:14 | <timeless> | which preview? |
| 19:14 | <timeless> | the one's on the right of a result? |
| 19:14 | <smaug____> | yeah |
| 19:14 | <smaug____> | the really annoying ones |
| 19:15 | timeless | shrugs |
| 19:15 | <timeless> | have you tried Bing? |
| 19:15 | <timeless> | if so, lemme know how it is ;-) |
| 19:15 | timeless | hasn't |
| 19:16 | <smaug____> | I just changed my default search engine to Bing |
| 19:16 | <smaug____> | let's see how well it works |
| 19:16 | <smaug____> | at least the UI is better :) |
| 19:17 | timeless | accidentally launches Nightly |
| 19:17 | timeless | gets a painting glitch and has to wait for a ui |
| 19:17 | <timeless> | my tabs from last time: FishIE tank |
| 19:18 | <timeless> | woohoo |
| 19:18 | <timeless> | my tablet got a new toy! |
| 19:18 | <timeless> | (and my n900 is getting 13fps w/ 20 fish) |
| 20:04 | <karlcow> | nimbi can the logo be bigger? Could it be shinier? And what about more photos? … (for those who know) |
| 20:04 | <karlcow> | s/nimbi/nimbu/ |
| 20:04 | <karlcow> | smaug____: I'm using duckduckgo |
| 20:05 | <smaug____> | karlcow: does that use Google and Bing internally ? |
| 20:08 | <karlcow> | smaug____: result are given by Bing built with Yahoo but with an extra layer. http://duckduckgo.com/privacy.html |
| 22:15 | <zcorpan> | rfc2397 says it imports "urlchar" from rfc2396, but the string "urlchar" doesn't appear in that document |
| 22:16 | <zcorpan> | does it mean "uric"? |
| 22:35 | <zcorpan> | ok so with rfc3987's reserved and unreserved chars, minus # and &, we could invent a "base79" encoding for use instead of base64 in data urls |
| 22:36 | <zcorpan> | and that still uses ' which could be problematic since then it can't be used in single-quoted values, and there's no char to represent what base64 uses "=" for |
| 22:38 | <erlehmann> | zcorpan, why would you do that? |
| 22:38 | <zcorpan> | erlehmann: to make it more compactly encoded |
| 22:39 | <erlehmann> | (._.) |
| 22:39 | <zcorpan> | although to make it worthwhile we'd have to go beyond what rfc3987 allows i guess |
| 22:39 | <zcorpan> | 64 vs 79 (or 78) is a wash |
| 22:40 | <erlehmann> | i am very much not interested in that, base64 is okay for the occasional inline icon. |
| 22:40 | <erlehmann> | (for me) |
| 22:40 | <zcorpan> | sure |
| 22:45 | <jamesr_> | are you really saving anything post-gzip? |
| 22:46 | <zcorpan> | unlikely :) |
| 22:47 | <zcorpan> | maybe if i go with a scheme similar to utf-8 and try encoding several bytes at a time... hmm |
| 22:49 | <zcorpan> | that, or i go with "naw it was a stupid idea" and go back to sleep |
| 22:50 | smaug____ | doesn't understand what https://twitter.com/#!/slightlylate/status/106512911165435904 tries to say |
| 22:50 | <jamesr_> | http://code.google.com/p/webgl-loader/wiki/UtfEight |
| 22:51 | <roc> | http://joshduck.com/periodic-table.html |
| 22:52 | <roc> | jamesr_: "it just doesn't compare to native code, and the fancy things "real" compression algorithms do" is not really true now |
| 22:53 | <jamesr_> | depends on your browser |
| 22:53 | <jamesr_> | and what threading model you want |
| 22:54 | <roc> | browsers that support WebGL tend to have modern JS engines with typed arrays and specialization that works well for tight bit-banging loops |
| 22:54 | <roc> | however, using UTF-8 that way is a cool idea anyway |
| 22:59 | <TabAtkins> | smaug____: Alex has retracted his suggestion for this particular API. In general, though, many people reach for an API when they should be doing an <input>. |
| 23:00 | <TabAtkins> | smaug____: Like DAP's Contacts API, or even Geolocation. |
| 23:00 | <smaug____> | doing <input> ? |
| 23:00 | <smaug____> | huh |
| 23:01 | <TabAtkins> | <input type=contacts>, for example. |
| 23:01 | <smaug____> | fortunately speech is not going to be bound specifically to input or other form elements |
| 23:02 | <smaug____> | <input type=contact> would make sense, if it would read data from "contacts" |
| 23:03 | <TabAtkins> | Yes, exactly. |
| 23:03 | <smaug____> | but it would be type=contact |
| 23:03 | <TabAtkins> | Which would be provided by your phone, or by telling your browser that Google manages your contacts, or whatever. |
| 23:03 | <smaug____> | not contacts |
| 23:03 | <timeless> | that's being done by dap |
| 23:03 | timeless | hopes |
| 23:03 | <TabAtkins> | timeless: No, DAP is doing some pure-API thing. |
| 23:03 | <TabAtkins> | Maybe they're switching over? I dunno. |
| 23:04 | <smaug____> | but there are other use cases for API |
| 23:04 | <timeless> | well, ideally whatever work is done by dap would be leveragable// |
| 23:04 | <smaug____> | the type="contact" would be just an autocomplete like thing |
| 23:07 | <smaug____> | binding geolocation to input element would be rather silly |
| 23:07 | <timeless> | well |
| 23:07 | <timeless> | <input type=location> or <input type=address> |
| 23:07 | <timeless> | is perfectly reasonable |
| 23:07 | <TabAtkins> | Exactly. |
| 23:07 | <timeless> | but it's much better if your UA can bring up a map |
| 23:08 | <timeless> | or let you retrieve an address from your contacts |
| 23:08 | <timeless> | the Mozilla GeoLocation impl and its owners are incredibly annoying here |
| 23:08 | <TabAtkins> | These are, of course, perfectly fine options for an <input>'s UI. |
| 23:08 | <timeless> | as are the other vendors |
| 23:08 | <timeless> | "We don't want to standardize on an api to do this" |
| 23:08 | <timeless> | but it's stupid and wrong |
| 23:08 | <smaug____> | if <input type=location> uses geolocation in the background, that is implementation detail |
| 23:09 | <timeless> | if the design of geolocation wasn't "I need to spy on the user's location" |
| 23:09 | <timeless> | but instead "I'd like a location from the user, any will do" |
| 23:09 | <timeless> | And UAs happened to have "convert CurrentLocation" as an option in addition to |
| 23:09 | <timeless> | "enter from contact" |
| 23:09 | <timeless> | and "select from map" |
| 23:09 | <timeless> | but no, |
| 23:09 | timeless | sighs |
| 23:09 | timeless | curses Nokia |
| 23:10 | <timeless> | (it's all their fault that I wasn't allowed at that table when the standard was written) |
| 23:10 | <TabAtkins> | You've got it exactly, timeless. Getting a location/address is a useful thing to have, and to submit in a form. Where you get that (current loc, manually entered, chosen from a map) is a UI issue. |
| 23:10 | <timeless> | thank you! |
| 23:10 | <Hixie> | no reason the geo api can't return arbitrary locations too |
| 23:10 | <timeless> | but note that sadly vendors need to be encouraged to do right by users |
| 23:10 | <timeless> | Hixie: true |
| 23:10 | <timeless> | except that vendors suck here |
| 23:10 | <timeless> | and are lazy |
| 23:10 | <timeless> | and don't want to ship that by default |
| 23:10 | <timeless> | and aren't competing to be good to their users |
| 23:10 | <timeless> | so we're stuck w/ privacy invasion only |
| 23:11 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Problem is that, with the script-driven API, you're stuck with either smuggling some options into the permissions dialog, or popping up an intrusive dialog whenever the script makes a request. |
| 23:11 | <timeless> | and the vendors say "oh, you can get a [crappy] addon which [hand-waving] will let you do that" |
| 23:11 | <TabAtkins> | An <input> lets the dialog be user-driven. |
| 23:11 | <timeless> | and yes, i've tried the Opera thing |
| 23:11 | <timeless> | it's crappy |
| 23:11 | <timeless> | it didn't really work |
| 23:11 | <timeless> | and i did try to send feedback |
| 23:11 | <timeless> | and i've looked at the mozilla impl |
| 23:11 | <timeless> | (repeatedly!) |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: doesn't have to be intrusive |
| 23:11 | <timeless> | and it is *not* friendly |
| 23:12 | <smaug____> | <input type="location"> should definitely ask permission if it was filled automatically |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: just drop down an infobar that says "what location do you wish to report to the page? ((current location)) (pick from map) (old location v) (none)" |
| 23:12 | <timeless> | smaug____: it shouldn't fill in automatically |
| 23:12 | <timeless> | you just get a thing with a bunch of buttons |
| 23:12 | <timeless> | a map, an addressbook, and a location icon |
| 23:12 | <smaug____> | timeless: well, then it is just an implementation detail |
| 23:12 | <timeless> | if you click the location icon, it fills it in |
| 23:13 | <timeless> | smaug____: not exactly |
| 23:13 | <timeless> | unimplemented details don't help users |
| 23:13 | <timeless> | the precise ui is an implementation detail |
| 23:13 | <timeless> | but requirements to let the user select an arbitrary location |
| 23:13 | <timeless> | should be *requirements* |
| 23:13 | <timeless> | instead of |
| 23:13 | <timeless> | [hand waving] |
| 23:14 | <timeless> | done right, the UAs would have competed to get decent UE for this stuff |
| 23:14 | <timeless> | and we'd probably have had a *better* system that didn't require permission dialogs at all |
| 23:14 | <timeless> | since the users could just select a point from a map |
| 23:14 | <timeless> | e.g. Paris |
| 23:14 | <smaug____> | so, I haven't seen any reasons to bind geolocation to input, but have better UIs in the browsers |
| 23:14 | <zewt> | specs should specify the apis, they shouldn't try to require UI features for users |
| 23:14 | <timeless> | zewt: do |
| 23:15 | <timeless> | so... |
| 23:15 | <TabAtkins> | smaug____: Location is manifestly a potentially useful thing to submit in forms. |
| 23:15 | <timeless> | an API which only allows for privacy invasion |
| 23:15 | <timeless> | is not a good thing |
| 23:15 | <timeless> | and a claim that "oh, in theory, someone could lie" |
| 23:15 | <timeless> | doesn't help if no one implements it |
| 23:15 | <timeless> | and it certainly doesn't help if the api suggests "or you can just abort" |
| 23:15 | <TabAtkins> | You could use the scripted API and fill a hidden input, but why do that when you can instead just make an <input> type and script at that? |
| 23:15 | <zewt> | sure, and specs should note "there are privacy concerns here and UAs should consider them", and perhaps advise on how, but not try to specify how |
| 23:15 | <timeless> | which results in sites discriminating and doing other stupid things |
| 23:16 | <timeless> | zewt: right, i'm not saying specify how |
| 23:16 | <TabAtkins> | In other words, when gathering information from the user, the impetus should be to justify why it *shouldn't* be a new input type. |
| 23:16 | <timeless> | whether it's an input field, or a map, or contacts is an implementation detail |
| 23:16 | <timeless> | but requiring that the user be able to enter another value isn't a bad thing |
| 23:16 | <timeless> | if a ui doesn't have a keyboard, it can offer the users a couple of random values |
| 23:16 | <timeless> | that's still valid |
| 23:16 | <timeless> | and it would still help users |
| 23:17 | <timeless> | <input type=location onchange=doSomething()> |
| 23:17 | <smaug____> | still, only about UI. Nothing requiring geolocation or similar. |
| 23:17 | timeless | fails to parse that |
| 23:18 | <smaug____> | browser could know the location in other ways than using geolocation |
| 23:19 | <timeless> | right |
| 23:19 | <zewt> | i don't generally think specs trying to require user-facing, non-api-facing features seems very useful; if i was an implementor i'd deem that out of scope for the spec and ignore it (except informationally, of course--i'd treat it as a note) |
| 23:19 | <timeless> | but unfortunate the geolocation api was designed to be a geolocation api |
| 23:19 | <timeless> | instead of a location api |
| 23:19 | <timeless> | which is a bug |
| 23:19 | <timeless> | (that was standardized!) |
| 23:19 | <smaug____> | so saying that type="location" has something to do with geolocation is just an implementation detail |
| 23:19 | <zewt> | if it's not useful enough to implement on my (implementor's) own, it'd be surprising if demanding it in the spec would change that |
| 23:20 | <timeless> | smaug____: which is fine with us |
| 23:20 | <smaug____> | timeless: ah, you just want different API |
| 23:20 | <smaug____> | you have different use cases |
| 23:20 | <timeless> | smaug____: i want a different outlook |
| 23:20 | <timeless> | my use cases are privacy first |
| 23:20 | <timeless> | and being able to plan for where i'll be |
| 23:20 | <timeless> | or help someone remotely |
| 23:20 | <timeless> | or ... |
| 23:20 | <timeless> | but still be able to use geolocation services |
| 23:20 | <timeless> | nothing prevented geolocation from working well using <input type=location> |
| 23:20 | <smaug____> | nothing prevents that now |
| 23:20 | <timeless> | and nothing prevents users from being able to use it for lots of other things |
| 23:21 | <timeless> | sure things do |
| 23:21 | <TabAtkins> | Even ignoring privacy, the ability to get a location from the user (not their current, just a chosen loc) is really useful for, say, timezone calculations. |
| 23:21 | <timeless> | none of the browsers did anything friendly for users |
| 23:21 | <timeless> | and none of them will |
| 23:21 | <TabAtkins> | "I'm going to be HERE, what's the time?" |
| 23:21 | <zewt> | TabAtkins: i hate timezones to death |
| 23:21 | <timeless> | i'll give you 100 bucks if one does by march |
| 23:21 | <smaug____> | why not? |
| 23:21 | <zewt> | just throwing that out there |
| 23:21 | <timeless> | (and 50 bucks if one does by july) |
| 23:21 | <smaug____> | timeless: just write a spec for type="location" |
| 23:21 | <TabAtkins> | zewt: Preach it. If Swatch hadn't screwed up the zero point on their beats I'd be using them. |
| 23:22 | <timeless> | heh |
| 23:22 | <timeless> | smaug____: would you get it implemented in gecko if i wrote the spec? |
| 23:22 | <timeless> | (or webkit, i'm not picky) |
| 23:23 | <smaug____> | possibly |
| 23:23 | <timeless> | (and would you help get the geolocation api deprecated?) |
| 23:23 | <smaug____> | depends on the quality of the spec ;) |
| 23:23 | <smaug____> | why should we deprecate geolocation API? |
| 23:23 | <smaug____> | it has different use cases |
| 23:23 | <timeless> | not really |
| 23:24 | <zewt> | yeah deprecate a widely deployed, heavily used API, great idea heh |
| 23:24 | <smaug____> | using geolocation web app can query the location, type="location" requires user to actively give the location to web app |
| 23:24 | <timeless> | it doesn't |
| 23:24 | <smaug____> | huh |
| 23:24 | <timeless> | the input could easily let the user say `update location as i move` |
| 23:25 | <timeless> | see my example above |
| 23:25 | <smaug____> | huh |
| 23:25 | <timeless> | <input type=location onchange=doSomething()> |
| 23:25 | <smaug____> | terrible |
| 23:25 | <timeless> | what's terrible about that? |
| 23:25 | <smaug____> | so each web app should depend on the UI <input type="location"> happens to have |
| 23:25 | <Philip`> | TabAtkins: I'd expect timezone location-selection would need a specialist UI, because you might be selecting a point near a timezone boundary, in which case you need to be made aware that you're near the boundary and that you need to be very precise in your location |
| 23:26 | <Philip`> | whereas if you're somewhere near the middle of a timezone then you don't need to bother with that precision |
| 23:26 | <TabAtkins> | Philip`: Sure, it was just an example off the top of my head. |
| 23:26 | <timeless> | timezones are disasters :) |
| 23:26 | <timeless> | did you guys install MS's recent time zone update? |
| 23:26 | <Philip`> | so the UI ought to be giving you feedback instead of being a fully general one |
| 23:26 | <TabAtkins> | timeless: Was it an auto-update? |
| 23:26 | <timeless> | http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2570791 |
| 23:26 | <timeless> | it was pushed by Windows Update, yeah |
| 23:26 | <zewt> | well, there should be a way to query the timezone from the system, very rarely should it be needed to nag the user about it |
| 23:27 | <zewt> | but ... timezones are tricky, heh |
| 23:27 | <timeless> | zewt: err |
| 23:27 | <zewt> | stupid 1/2 (and even a couple 1/4th) timezones D: |
| 23:27 | <timeless> | privacy violation |
| 23:27 | <zewt> | zzz |
| 23:27 | <zewt> | ask people who want to be asked |
| 23:27 | <timeless> | it should be possible to ask the system to show a time in the user's timezone |
| 23:27 | <timeless> | or in some other time zone |
| 23:27 | <timeless> | but it really isn't ok to automatically retrieve the user's time zone |
| 23:28 | <timeless> | (plus, it's not necessarily accurate) |
| 23:28 | <zewt> | that's at the level where maybe browsers should have a "paranoid" mode where they ask about it, but 98% of users don't care and don't need to |
| 23:28 | <timeless> | <input type=timezone> |
| 23:28 | <TabAtkins> | I am all for adding a dozen new inputs. |
| 23:28 | <Philip`> | zewt: Can't you determine the user's timezone already from Date().toString() ? |
| 23:28 | <TabAtkins> | inputs are great. |
| 23:28 | <timeless> | the value can be colored in gray with the current value with a way for the user to accept that value |
| 23:29 | <zewt> | is the timezone in that standardized? |
| 23:29 | <timeless> | Philip`: if the JS system is good enough and the os is good enough |
| 23:29 | <timeless> | kinda |
| 23:29 | <timeless> | but one or the other is typically not good enough for 100% :) |
| 23:29 | <zewt> | i guess it must be |
| 23:29 | timeless | has read the edge cases there for gecko fwiw, they exist |
| 23:30 | <zewt> | heh i wonder if chrome's paranoia mode hides that |
| 23:30 | <TabAtkins> | I doubt it. |
| 23:30 | <zewt> | nope |
| 23:30 | <timeless> | note that you can't necessarily determine if a user will switch in and out of DST |
| 23:30 | <timeless> | and certainly not necessarily when |
| 23:30 | <timeless> | knowing someone is in +x doesn't tell you about transitions |
| 23:31 | <timeless> | and it also won't tell you if the computer they're using has correct transition info :) |
| 23:31 | <zewt> | the format is "GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)"--something I'm not sure is whether the string "Eastern Daylight Time" is a standardized string that can be mapped to a timezone db, or if it's ad hoc and unreliable |
| 23:31 | <zewt> | because GMT-0400 doesn't tell you the timezone, it only tells you the offset in the user's timezone currently |
| 23:32 | <zewt> | stupid Arizona |
| 23:33 | <timeless> | Thu Aug 25 2011 18:36:01 GMT-0400 (US Eastern Daylight Time) |
| 23:33 | <TabAtkins> | The current time is Na, in base-60 minutes since UTC midnight. |
| 23:33 | <timeless> | Thu Aug 25 2011 18:36:23 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) |
| 23:33 | <zewt> | yeah, that limits the usefulness of that for anything nontrivial |
| 23:33 | <timeless> | both of those times are from Chrome |
| 23:33 | <timeless> | anyone want to guess what the difference is? |
| 23:33 | <zewt> | guessing regional |
| 23:33 | <zewt> | we don't say "US EDT" in the US |
| 23:33 | <timeless> | pick a region? :) |
| 23:34 | <zewt> | since we're the US, damn it! |
| 23:34 | <timeless> | so guess the region? |
| 23:34 | <zewt> | why? heh |
| 23:34 | <timeless> | it's Indiana fwiw |
| 23:34 | <timeless> | are you saying that isn't in the US? :) |
| 23:34 | <Hixie> | AryehGregor: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13424 |
| 23:34 | <TabAtkins> | zewt: http://www.xanthir.com/time-manifesto.php |
| 23:35 | <timeless> | Thu Aug 25 18:38:00 2011 |
| 23:35 | <timeless> | is IE9 fwiw :) |
| 23:35 | <Hixie> | AryehGregor: if you're ok with moving the definitions to your spec, please mention in the spec which sections i should remove from the html spec |
| 23:36 | <zewt> | we can't even avoid streets having different names across town boundaries, short of a global dictatorship we'll never see a rational timezone system, heh |
| 23:37 | <timeless> | so, afaict IE has decided to |
| 23:37 | <timeless> | btw, there are more than 4 timezones for the US :) |
| 23:38 | <timeless> | ignoring Indiana |
| 23:38 | <zewt> | well, it's still giving local time, and (if the user's clock isn't wrong) you can figure out the GMT offset from that |
| 23:38 | <Philip`> | Does it do the same for 'new Date().toLocaleString()'? |
| 23:39 | <timeless> | Philip`: that gets me a bing search |
| 23:39 | <TabAtkins> | timeless: Continental US! |
| 23:39 | <timeless> | TabAtkins: aww |
| 23:39 | <timeless> | Alaska excluded? |
| 23:39 | <timeless> | (it's on the contintent!) |
| 23:40 | <timeless> | I think you're looking for `lower 48+dc` fwiw :) |
| 23:41 | <TabAtkins> | Is Alaska usually included when you say "continental US"? I thought that term usually meant lower 48+dc. |
| 23:41 | <timeless> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contiguous_United_States#Continental_United_States |
| 23:41 | <timeless> | Because Alaska is also on the North American continent, the term continental United States, if interpreted literally, should also include that state,[7] so the term is sometimes qualified with the explicit inclusion or exclusion of Alaska to resolve any ambiguity.[8][3][9][10][11] |
| 23:41 | <zewt> | if something says "shipping only to continental US" that usually excludes alaska |
| 23:41 | <timeless> | they usually explicitly note they exclude it though |
| 23:42 | <timeless> | note sure if that's 8, 3, 9, 10, or 11 :) |
| 23:42 | <timeless> | s/note/not/ |
| 23:42 | <zewt> | heh |
| 23:42 | timeless | has no idea why 3 is after 8 |
| 23:42 | <zewt> | i use stylish to hide footnotes on wikipedia |
| 23:42 | <Hixie> | anyone familiar with rniwa's undomanager stuff? |
| 23:42 | <zewt> | there are *way* too many of them on a lot of pages, to the point where it's distracting |
| 23:42 | <Hixie> | should i be removing window.onundo and window.onredo? |
| 23:42 | <Hixie> | i don't see it mentioned in the proposal |
| 23:42 | <timeless> | The term was in use prior to the admission of Alaska and Hawaii as states of the United States, and at that time usually excluded outlying territories of the U.S.[12][13] However, even before Alaska became a state, it was sometimes included within the "Continental US".[14] |
| 23:43 | <timeless> | anyway, `contiguous` is usually the word you want |
| 23:43 | <smaug____> | Hixie: I think he and ehsan and others were discussing about undomanager yesterday or today |
| 23:43 | <timeless> | > The term lower 48 may or may not include the District of Columbia (which is not part of any of the 48 states). The National Geographic style guide recommends the use of contiguous or conterminous United States instead of lower 48 when the 48 states are meant, unless used in the context of Alaska.[17] Otherwise it is avoided as a misnomer, because all the major islands of Hawaii are farther south than the most southern point of the continenta |
| 23:43 | <Hixie> | yeah, they had a meeting up in the canadian lands |
| 23:43 | <smaug____> | I hope they'll report something |
| 23:43 | <zewt> | ugh nvidia installed two plugins into firefox without permission |
| 23:44 | <timeless> | they were meting today |
| 23:44 | <timeless> | s/met/meet/ |
| 23:44 | <timeless> | zewt: you using ff9? |
| 23:44 | <timeless> | if so, it probably told you when you started.. |
| 23:44 | <zewt> | 6 |
| 23:44 | <timeless> | change to 9 |
| 23:44 | <timeless> | you'll get a dialog complaining about added addons/plugins |
| 23:44 | <zewt> | i'll pass on non-production builds of my primary browser, heh |
| 23:45 | timeless | is using 9.0a1 2011-08-25 |
| 23:45 | <timeless> | or "Nightly is up to date" as Asa would want me to say if i visited the about screen |
| 23:45 | <timeless> | it's fine as long as you're happy w/ losing your irc logs every day |
| 23:46 | <zewt> | if firefox started deleting mirc logs i'd be concerned :) |
| 23:47 | <timeless> | you clearly haven't bought into B2G |
| 23:47 | timeless | is using webchat.freenode.net .. |
| 23:48 | nimbu | thanks whoever uploaded the styles to whatwg blog theme |
| 23:51 | <timeless> | can someone remind me how <cite> works? |
| 23:51 | <timeless> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/content-models.html#wai-aria |
| 23:51 | <timeless> | has a <cite> tag... |
| 23:51 | <karlcow> | cite is the reference of the Work |
| 23:52 | <Hixie> | timeless: <cite> means "title of work" |
| 23:52 | <timeless> | karlcow: nope |
| 23:52 | <Hixie> | timeless: insofar as how it works in browsers, it works the same as <i>, more or less |
| 23:52 | <timeless> | Hixie provided the correct answer |
| 23:52 | <karlcow> | <cite>Gone With The Wind</cite> |
| 23:52 | <timeless> | (of course, since he wrote the spec, that isn't surprising) |
| 23:52 | <karlcow> | huh? |
| 23:52 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 23:52 | <karlcow> | we both gave the same answer |
| 23:52 | <timeless> | no |
| 23:53 | karlcow | is scratching his head |
| 23:53 | timeless | is looking for a style guide name |
| 23:53 | <timeless> | but roughly a "reference" to a work as in http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/legacylib/mlahcc.html would include more than the work title |
| 23:54 | <timeless> | it tends to include an author and a date |
| 23:55 | <timeless> | > The cite element is obviously a key part of any citation in a bibliography, but it is only used to mark the title: <p><cite>Universal Declaration of Human Rights</cite>, United Nations, December 1948. Adopted by General Assembly resolution 217 A (III).</p> |
| 23:55 | <karlcow> | yup |
| 23:55 | <timeless> | your definition would have meant the <p> to me |
| 23:55 | <timeless> | which is what i needed clarified |
| 23:55 | <karlcow> | ah ok |
| 23:56 | karlcow | add to html5 <ref></ref> |
| 23:56 | <timeless> | sorry for the terse `nope` |
| 23:56 | timeless | was blanking on the spelling of MLA |
| 23:56 | <timeless> | (amongst other problems) |
| 23:56 | timeless | wants dinner |
| 23:57 | <nimbu> | jgraham: in style.css line 63 (for blog.whatwg.org) there needs to be an overflow: hidden; after the display: block; decl. SRRY I did not notice that. |
| 23:57 | <zewt> | i wish browsers let me middle-click on form submit buttons to submit into another tab |
| 23:57 | <timeless> | zewt: what happens if the script does something magical instead? :) |
| 23:57 | <karlcow> | <ref><cite>title</cite>, <author title="it's here we start to enter into a maze of markup issues">authors list</author>, etc etc etc </ref> |
| 23:57 | <zewt> | the same thing as links that do the same, heh |
| 23:58 | <timeless> | zewt: e.g. google's instant search |
| 23:58 | <timeless> | which generally doesn't load a new page at all |
| 23:58 | <Philip`> | zewt: Ctrl+shift+click seems to open buttons in new tabs in Opera |
| 23:58 | <timeless> | for pages w/o access to databases or remote resources, you could clone the document tree |
| 23:59 | <timeless> | but that fails if there's a local database or some similar remote resource |
| 23:59 | timeless | curses Greyhound |
| 23:59 | <Philip`> | (Actually just shift+click) |
| 23:59 | <timeless> | their serve wouldn't let me have 2 searches open in distinct windows |
| 23:59 | <timeless> | it invalidated all but the most recently used one upon submission |
| 23:59 | <zewt> | heh |