| 00:00 | <timeless> | oh, if you want to truly appreciate greyhound... |
| 00:00 | <zewt> | the worst is broken crsf stuff that breaks if you ever have more than one form open |
| 00:00 | <timeless> | load http://greyhound.ca/ |
| 00:00 | <timeless> | enter `toronto` (select the first one) in the origin |
| 00:00 | <timeless> | enter `albany` (select the first one) in the destination |
| 00:00 | <timeless> | then search |
| 00:01 | <timeless> | now go back and try `toronto` (...) and `vancouver` |
| 00:01 | <timeless> | i tried to describe how broken greyhound.ca was to someone because i experienced the first behavior |
| 00:01 | <timeless> | but they tried the second set of inputs... |
| 00:02 | <timeless> | oh darn |
| 00:02 | <timeless> | it isn't behaving nicely for vancouver |
| 00:02 | <timeless> | hold |
| 00:02 | <timeless> | ok, s/vancouver/waterloo/g |
| 00:02 | <timeless> | go figure |
| 00:03 | <timeless> | clearly i haven't divined the right rule for when their site breaks |
| 00:03 | <timeless> | (for waterloo, be sure to pick ON [the second item]) |
| 00:05 | <karlcow> | timeless: and the worse for me… is that there is no sane way to do the same thing by train |
| 00:05 | <timeless> | karlcow: i'm actually going from Toronto to Albany |
| 00:06 | <timeless> | bus is really the best path |
| 00:06 | <timeless> | i looked at train (sucky schedules) |
| 00:06 | <karlcow> | unfortunately |
| 00:06 | <timeless> | and flights (1000cur) |
| 00:06 | <karlcow> | yup |
| 00:06 | <karlcow> | trains are slow and expensive in Canada :/ |
| 00:06 | <timeless> | i presume you got the message from your browser? |
| 00:07 | <karlcow> | from Montreal to NY the only reasonable way is to take a plane |
| 00:07 | <timeless> | (if you're using firefox, you got *my* message actually...) |
| 00:07 | <timeless> | (since i wrote it) |
| 00:07 | <timeless> | driving shouldn't be bad |
| 00:07 | timeless | doesn't have a license |
| 00:07 | <timeless> | my path (toronto/albany) would be pretty good by car |
| 00:07 | <timeless> | scenic, etc |
| 00:08 | karlcow | is missing train transportation in Japan and Europe :) |
| 00:11 | <timeless> | karlcow: can you drive from montreal to plattsburg? |
| 00:11 | <timeless> | 68 Adirondack Departs: 12:35 PM Wed Sep 07 2011 Plattsburgh, NY (PLB) Arrives: 8:40 PM Wed Sep 07 2011 New York, NY - Penn Station (NYP) Duration: 8 hr, 5 min |
| 00:12 | <timeless> | not terrible |
| 00:12 | <timeless> | oh, 62USD |
| 00:12 | <karlcow> | 8h… :) awful |
| 00:13 | <karlcow> | 507 km. should be taking max 1h30 to 2h. |
| 00:15 | <timeless> | google maps says it's a 5hour drive |
| 00:17 | <karlcow> | yup insane. 8h of train… |
| 00:17 | <timeless> | boston south station to washington d.c. union station is 8 hours/450miles or a 6 1/2hr train ride |
| 00:19 | <timeless> | wierd |
| 00:19 | <timeless> | if i start my gmaps trip in montreal, i get KM |
| 00:19 | <timeless> | if it's us-us i get Mi |
| 00:19 | <timeless> | (please excuse incorrect abbr's) |
| 00:20 | <timeless> | note that europe's train system doesn't work perfectly for non major locations |
| 00:20 | <timeless> | and you can often end up w/ 3 trains |
| 00:20 | <timeless> | i think you're looking at roughly trying to get north of switzerland to south of switzerland |
| 00:21 | timeless | tries to remember which euro train site didn't suck |
| 00:21 | <timeless> | http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Stuttgart,+Germany+to+Genova,+Italy&saddr=Stuttgart,+Germany&daddr=Genova,+Italy&hl=en&sll=46.649436,10.524902&sspn=10.181416,23.269043&geocode=FZJH6AIdYRaMACnTj63BNNuZRzHkz5F3HMHVeQ%3BFRaZpQIdZVKIAClpb64h5kPTEjG7Arq1xlP3aQ&vpsrc=0&doflg=ptk&t=h&z=7 |
| 00:21 | <timeless> | for lack of something else to try |
| 00:22 | <timeless> | Stuttgart Hbf Genova Piazza Principe 25.08.11 05:18 dep 15:42 arr 10:24 4 |
| 00:22 | <timeless> | 10 hours, 4 changes |
| 00:23 | <timeless> | best is: |
| 00:23 | <timeless> | Stuttgart Hbf Genova Piazza Principe 25.08.11 07:58 dep 16:42 arr 8:44 2 |
| 00:23 | <timeless> | ~9 hours, 2 changes |
| 00:23 | <timeless> | so, no, europe isn't wonderful either |
| 00:23 | <timeless> | you're just used to going from cities which don't have mountains in the way |
| 00:23 | <timeless> | and which have heavy traffic |
| 00:24 | timeless | is happy at those two thrown darts |
| 00:25 | <timeless> | anyway, that trip is comprable for distance |
| 00:27 | <karlcow> | paris-lyon, paris-marseille, paris-london, paris-brussels :) like a charm |
| 16:15 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 16:15 | <Ms2ger> | Morning |
| 16:17 | <nimbu> | :)) |
| 16:18 | <jgraham> | Well shall we go? |
| 16:19 | <dglazkov> | yes! where are we going? |
| 18:01 | <AryehGregor> | Hixie, we discussed undo/redo events, and I think we concluded that we'll just have events along the lines of onbeforecommand and onaftercommand that will fire for things like undo/redo/delete/insertText/etc. whether it's the browser or the user triggering them. So in principle that means we don't need special events for undo/redo. |
| 18:01 | <AryehGregor> | Hixie, I'll get back to you on bug 13424, the e-mails should be somewhere in my spec inbox. |
| 18:18 | <timeless> | karlcow: that's because paris is well connected and you don't have any mountains to deal with |
| 18:19 | <karlcow> | like in Japan? ;) |
| 18:19 | timeless | doesn't know enough about japan |
| 18:19 | timeless | isn't sure if Japan just goes around the mountains |
| 18:19 | <karlcow> | mountains land |
| 18:20 | <timeless> | http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Nagano,+Nagano+Prefecture,+Japan&daddr=Okayama,+Okayama+Prefecture,+Japan&hl=en&sll=34.939985,136.252441&sspn=3.039282,5.817261&geocode=FWY2LwIdQ608CCmZRDTmXYAdYDHIkigHdKko8Q%3BFarLEAIdDnP7BylPoPsvcQVUNTFmV2lgJoDDEA&vpsrc=0&ttype=now&noexp=0&noal=0&sort=time&mra=ls&t=h&z=7&start=0 |
| 18:21 | <timeless> | every time i try to use gmaps to get transit directions in japan, it sends me to an airport! |
| 18:21 | <timeless> | ooh, options has a [] no airplanes box! |
| 18:22 | <karlcow> | heh |
| 18:22 | <timeless> | http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Nagano,+Nagano+Prefecture,+Japan&daddr=Kyoto,+Kyoto+Prefecture,+Japan&hl=en&ll=35.808904,136.977539&spn=3.006745,5.817261&sll=35.808904,136.988525&sspn=3.006745,5.817261&geocode=FWY2LwIdQ608CCmZRDTmXYAdYDHIkigHdKko8Q%3BFTQ8FgId3acXCCnxwzzN1qgBYDE9HbtrNh2WwA&vpsrc=0&ttype=now&noexp=0&noal=0&sort=time&mra=ltm&t=h&z=8&start=0 |
| 18:22 | <timeless> | ok, there we go |
| 18:22 | <timeless> | 250miles |
| 18:22 | <timeless> | 4:30 |
| 18:22 | <timeless> | (by train) |
| 18:23 | <timeless> | but that's only ~400km, and we were using 600km as a benchmark |
| 18:24 | <timeless> | http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Nagano,+Nagano+Prefecture,+Japan&daddr=Takahashi,+Okayama+Prefecture,+Japan&hl=en&sll=35.621582,135.900879&sspn=3.013818,5.817261&geocode=FWY2LwIdQ608CCmZRDTmXYAdYDHIkigHdKko8Q%3BFYLfEgIdaNP2BykhIvph4LRWNTGhAIJnEygEew&vpsrc=0&ttype=now&noexp=0&noal=0&sort=time&mra=ls&t=h&z=8&start=0 |
| 18:24 | <timeless> | 6-7hrs / 400mile ~640km |
| 18:25 | <timeless> | which means that 8hours for a train from montreal to nyc really isn't *much* worse than japan :) |
| 18:25 | <karlcow> | tss tss |
| 18:25 | <timeless> | and that's with japan's *good* network |
| 18:25 | <karlcow> | big cities connection |
| 18:25 | <timeless> | vs a pair of cities which don't care to connect |
| 18:25 | AryehGregor | waves to timeless |
| 18:25 | <timeless> | yeah, hi, back @nyc? |
| 18:25 | timeless | presumes AryehGregor flew |
| 18:26 | <AryehGregor> | Yep. |
| 18:26 | <timeless> | (we're having a long rolling conversation about transit in the NE corridor) |
| 18:26 | <AryehGregor> | Heck yeah I flew. I went to Toronto by bus once, I'm not going to put up with that for a meetup. |
| 18:26 | <timeless> | heh |
| 18:27 | <timeless> | i'm going to albany by bus |
| 18:27 | <timeless> | (that's more or less one of the starting points for this conversation) |
| 18:27 | <timeless> | your flight which covers more distance was probably ~200usd? |
| 18:28 | <timeless> | priceline is offering 273usd |
| 18:28 | <timeless> | so i guess we should call it 300usd |
| 18:28 | <AryehGregor> | Well, Google paid for it. They said just tell them what flight I wanted, so I didn't try fidgeting with departure dates or anything to get the best price. |
| 18:28 | <timeless> | flying from here to albany is ~1000 |
| 18:29 | <timeless> | yeah, i know |
| 18:29 | <AryehGregor> | It was something like $700 or $800 round-trip, I think. |
| 18:29 | <timeless> | i'm just using it for perspective |
| 18:29 | <timeless> | ouch |
| 18:29 | <timeless> | business class? |
| 18:29 | <AryehGregor> | No, regular. |
| 18:29 | <AryehGregor> | Economy or whatever. |
| 18:29 | <AryehGregor> | It surprised me |
| 18:29 | <timeless> | very short notice? |
| 18:29 | <AryehGregor> | . |
| 18:29 | <AryehGregor> | Yes, less than a week before IIRC. |
| 18:29 | <timeless> | ok |
| 18:30 | <timeless> | anyway, the 1000cur is for over a month in advance |
| 18:30 | <AryehGregor> | A round trip to Israel is only like $1500, but I guess that's if you buy it well in advance and don't care about the exact dates/times. |
| 18:30 | <timeless> | whereas fwiw, in general your roundtrip flight should be 300-400 |
| 18:30 | <AryehGregor> | That was more like what I expected. |
| 18:30 | <AryehGregor> | But I looked at price comparison sites and such and didn't find it. |
| 18:31 | <AryehGregor> | Maybe I was booking too late to get a decent price, but there were empty seats on the plane, so I dunno. |
| 18:33 | <timeless> | kayak is offering ~900usd for flights from jfk to tlv for um |
| 18:33 | <timeless> | nov 16 return dec 14 |
| 18:33 | <timeless> | (turkish airlines) |
| 18:33 | <timeless> | (dates randomly selected by throwing darts into the future at a calendar) |
| 18:34 | <timeless> | anyway, point being, it's cheaper for you to fly to israel than for me to fly to albany |
| 18:35 | <timeless> | (oh, and priceline will give you those flights for 2$ less than kayak [898 v 900!]) |
| 18:38 | <AryehGregor> | Heh, we were talking about how Google Docs reimplements everything from scratch -- I just saw a message "Your browser's current zoom level is not supported. Please reset to the default zoom." |
| 18:39 | <AryehGregor> | That's what you get, I guess. |
| 18:39 | <timeless> | yeah, i've seent that message |
| 18:40 | <AryehGregor> | So it seems like my credit card charges in Canada are taking a long time to post. |
| 18:41 | <timeless> | they can easily take over a month |
| 18:41 | <timeless> | the same applies for roaming charges |
| 18:41 | <timeless> | which is great if you need to get approval for your expenses.. |
| 18:41 | <timeless> | and are supposed to do it as a single bundle |
| 18:41 | <AryehGregor> | Great. |
| 18:42 | <AryehGregor> | Well, I don't need approval, I just need to file for reimbursement. |
| 18:42 | timeless | hasn't really had that problem yet, not having a working credit card for a complete trip yet |
| 18:42 | <AryehGregor> | Conveniently, I haven't actually lost any money until the charges post, so . . . |
| 18:42 | <timeless> | well, if you live month to month, iut |
| 18:42 | <timeless> | 's the same thing |
| 18:42 | <AryehGregor> | No, that's the nice thing about credit cards. It doesn't come out of my bank account. |
| 18:42 | timeless | isn't living month to month anymore |
| 18:42 | <AryehGregor> | (although I don't live month to month or anywhere close to it, I actually still live with my parents) |
| 18:42 | <AryehGregor> | :) |
| 18:43 | <timeless> | yeah, my parents left toronto this morning |
| 18:43 | <timeless> | they're on their way to somewhere near detroit |
| 18:46 | <timeless> | btw, what kind of internet connection do you have? fiber? dsl? cable? |
| 18:46 | <timeless> | [fiber/fios] |
| 18:46 | timeless | is wondering about costs of providers and wouldn't mind an NYC based reference point |
| 18:49 | <karlcow> | cable. |
| 18:49 | <timeless> | bandwidth, limit/month, price/month? |
| 18:51 | <karlcow> | Download: 30Mb/s Upload: 2Mb/s, 120 Go/month, 66.95 CAD/months +15% Taxes (QC) |
| 18:51 | <timeless> | hrm |
| 18:52 | <timeless> | i'm looking at .. teksavvy.com |
| 18:52 | <AryehGregor> | I pulled a USB device out of Windows while logging out without saying "safely remove hardware" and Windows blue-screened. |
| 18:52 | <AryehGregor> | lol windows. |
| 18:52 | <AryehGregor> | 0x0000008e. |
| 18:52 | AryehGregor | looks it up |
| 18:52 | <jcranmer> | ERR_USER_WAS_AN_IDIOT |
| 18:52 | <karlcow> | http://www.videotron.com/service/internet-services/internet-access |
| 18:53 | <timeless> | they're offering 15 ; 1; 9tb (estimated assuming constant download); 54.95 cad/month +xx% taxes (ON) |
| 18:53 | <timeless> | that's cable |
| 18:53 | <timeless> | AryehGregor: are you an admin? |
| 18:53 | <timeless> | install windbg and pull up the .dmp file |
| 18:54 | <timeless> | also did the STOP message finger a driver? |
| 18:54 | <AryehGregor> | KERNEL_MODE_EXCEPTION_NOT_HANDLED, apparently, or else STATUS_ACCESS_VIOLATION. |
| 18:54 | <AryehGregor> | I didn't look closely. |
| 18:54 | <AryehGregor> | I'm an admin but it's my parents' computer, I was just using it for the scanner. |
| 18:54 | <timeless> | the first google hit for your stop is rustock rootkit :) |
| 18:54 | <timeless> | install windbg |
| 18:55 | <timeless> | it's a pretty fast process |
| 18:55 | <timeless> | karlcow: the big question i have is whether there's a risk of lower quality service using cable than dsl |
| 18:55 | <AryehGregor> | See, but I don't care. I use Linux. Not my problem. |
| 18:56 | <timeless> | because traditionally cable is shared w/ neighbors |
| 18:56 | <timeless> | AryehGregor: you don't care if your parent's banking info is stolen/abused? |
| 18:56 | <timeless> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came%E2%80%A6 |
| 18:56 | <karlcow> | How we found the file that was used to Hack RSA — http://www.f-secure.com/weblog/archives/00002226.html |
| 18:56 | <AryehGregor> | I'm not going to spend some unknown amount of time debugging their computer without them asking me to fend off that risk, no. |
| 18:57 | <AryehGregor> | My father manages their computers, he's a programmer too. |
| 18:57 | <karlcow> | timeless: I'm working from home mostly |
| 18:57 | <AryehGregor> | I doubt it's virus-related. Windows System Internals says it's one of the most common blue screens. |
| 18:57 | <karlcow> | so the neighbors are mostly not here :) |
| 18:57 | <timeless> | karlcow: heh |
| 18:57 | <timeless> | AryehGregor: yeah, STOP is |
| 18:57 | <timeless> | but it's helpful to know what caused it |
| 18:57 | <timeless> | sometimes it just means there's a driver that should be updated |
| 18:58 | <AryehGregor> | My parents chose to use Windows, they get to suffer with the consequences of their decision. :) |
| 18:58 | <AryehGregor> | (but it didn't affect them anyway, except for restarting the computer) |
| 19:00 | <timeless> | a buggy driver can affect them in the future |
| 19:00 | <timeless> | and a virus will affect them in the future :) |
| 19:00 | <AryehGregor> | Of course it can. They use Windows. |
| 19:00 | <AryehGregor> | Of course it will. They use Windows. |
| 19:00 | timeless | chuckles |
| 19:00 | <timeless> | buggy drivers exist on other platforms too you know :) |
| 19:00 | timeless | has had panics on just about every paltform imaginable |
| 19:01 | <AryehGregor> | They're a heck of a lot less frequent on non-Windows platforms. |
| 19:01 | <AryehGregor> | I don't believe I've ever had a kernel panic on Linux after boot on my desktop, although I might be misremembering. |
| 19:01 | <AryehGregor> | (I've had X hangs and crashes, though!) |
| 19:01 | <timeless> | i've had panic's on my linux systems |
| 19:01 | <timeless> | i think some were caused by a nic |
| 19:01 | <Ms2ger> | timeless, including emacs? :) |
| 19:02 | <timeless> | Ms2ger: i've had that die too, i think even at worldgate |
| 19:02 | <timeless> | and jesup used emacs as his os (he's on moznet these days) |
| 19:02 | <Ms2ger> | jesup works for Mozilla now |
| 19:03 | <timeless> | i've certainly had panic's on my linux based nokia tablets :) |
| 19:03 | <timeless> | i've also caused at least one freebsd box to panic :) |
| 19:03 | <timeless> | do you remember / have you seen `stress`? :) |
| 19:04 | <smaug____> | timeless: you've probably done unusual things with your nokia tablets :) |
| 19:04 | <timeless> | (that page has killed all sorts of devices) |
| 19:04 | <smaug____> | though, N900 does crash occasionally |
| 19:04 | <timeless> | smaug____: to be fair, most of the panics were in code that hadn't shipped |
| 19:04 | <AryehGregor> | They also probably run low-quality out-of-tree drivers. |
| 19:04 | <timeless> | well, of course |
| 19:04 | <AryehGregor> | Heh. |
| 19:04 | <timeless> | just like the drivers on your parents' windows system |
| 19:04 | <AryehGregor> | Yeah, but the point is, on desktop Linux you usually don't have to use such drivers. |
| 19:04 | <timeless> | the odds of that windows system actually panicing because of a bug in MS drivers |
| 19:05 | <timeless> | vs a bug in third party drivers |
| 19:05 | <timeless> | hrm |
| 19:05 | <AryehGregor> | I don't think I use any, unless Ubuntu sneakily enabled them without asking me. |
| 19:05 | <timeless> | you don't use nvidia/amd/ati video drivers? |
| 19:05 | <timeless> | or whichever |
| 19:05 | <AryehGregor> | Nope. |
| 19:05 | <timeless> | you're no fun |
| 19:05 | <timeless> | and um |
| 19:05 | <AryehGregor> | I use nouveau. Works for me. |
| 19:05 | <timeless> | iirc ubuntu planned to change their default ther |
| 19:05 | <AryehGregor> | It will even support 3D soon. |
| 19:05 | <karlcow> | TabAtkins: why only rotation compared to a full EXIF apis? |
| 19:07 | <timeless> | http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/licensing |
| 19:07 | <timeless> | ... In addition, we install some hardware drivers that are available only in binary format, but such packages are clearly marked in the restricted component. |
| 19:13 | timeless | sighs |
| 19:13 | <timeless> | the portable contacts "spec" has really terrible text |
| 19:13 | <timeless> | > Service Provider MAY return a subset of the requested fields if they are not supported. |
| 19:14 | timeless | reads that as service provider may return a subset (including not supported fields, and excluding some supported fields)) of the requested fields |
| 19:15 | <timeless> | ... if they (the subset) are not (all) supported |
| 19:15 | <timeless> | :) |
| 19:15 | <jcranmer> | Service Provider may exclude a requested field if said field is not supported |
| 19:16 | <timeless> | jcranmer: it didn't say that though |
| 19:16 | <timeless> | it should have |
| 19:16 | <jcranmer> | s/a/any/ |
| 19:16 | <jcranmer> | it's more precise and shorter, too |
| 19:16 | <Ms2ger> | Service Provider MUST support all fields. |
| 19:16 | <timeless> | indeed |
| 19:16 | <jcranmer> | and arguably less confusing |
| 19:16 | <timeless> | and that |
| 19:17 | <timeless> | anyway, i highly recommend *not* reading this `spec` |
| 19:17 | <jcranmer> | I read ISO C++ from time to time |
| 19:17 | timeless | nods |
| 19:17 | <jcranmer> | and old RFCs |
| 19:17 | <timeless> | i have a feeling this is worse than both |
| 19:17 | <timeless> | and i'm well aware of both |
| 19:17 | <jcranmer> | after those, I doubt you can find anything else that's crap |
| 19:18 | <jcranmer> | well, excluding patents |
| 19:18 | timeless | has read some portions of iso c++ (probably proposals as opposed to the final versions) |
| 19:18 | timeless | remembers visiting the patent office as a child |
| 19:19 | <timeless> | my grandfather (zlb) wanted to file a patent and was doing due diligence |
| 19:19 | <timeless> | (which is something no one seems to do anymore) |
| 19:20 | <jcranmer> | stupid State St. decision |
| 19:20 | <timeless> | and i |
| 19:21 | <timeless> | ve of course read old rfcs |
| 19:21 | <timeless> | especially mime, pop, smtp, imap, nntp .. |
| 19:22 | <timeless> | > 500: Internal Server Error (un unexpected error occurred during processing) |
| 19:22 | timeless | ponders the random `un` |
| 19:23 | <timeless> | s/sepc/spec/ |
| 19:23 | timeless | suspects no one actually reviewed this sepc |
| 19:26 | <jcranmer> | it's not even at last call yet, I think |
| 19:27 | <timeless> | ? |
| 19:28 | <Ms2ger> | Is it a Living Standard? |
| 19:28 | timeless | hopes it's an unused standard |
| 19:29 | <jcranmer> | oh, I misread |
| 19:29 | <timeless> | hrm, it's used by google |
| 19:29 | <jcranmer> | I think you were talking about the DevAPI Contacts spec |
| 19:29 | <timeless> | no |
| 19:29 | <timeless> | http://portablecontacts.net/draft-spec.html if you must read it |
| 19:29 | <timeless> | (you were warned) |
| 19:30 | <timeless> | ooh, google is getting a new sign in page |
| 19:31 | <jcranmer> | egads |
| 19:31 | <jcranmer> | heavy use of rules |
| 19:32 | <timeless> | ? |
| 19:33 | <jcranmer> | horizontal rules |
| 19:37 | <jcranmer> | in other words, the spec formatting is complete crap |
| 19:37 | <jcranmer> | which is totally inexcusable if you're using HTML |
| 19:42 | <timeless> | i did try to warn you |
| 19:43 | timeless | is reading the spec in ms word |
| 19:43 | <Philip`> | Seems to be the default xml2rfc formatting, so you should feel lucky they didn't just use the ASCII output |
| 19:45 | <timeless> | grr |
| 19:45 | <timeless> | the web page i'm visiting is showing me <!--[if !mso]> |
| 19:45 | <jcranmer> | I actually like the ASCII output |
| 19:57 | <Hixie> | AryehGregor: k, i'll nuke onundo and onredo. |
| 20:48 | <zcorpan> | so could somebody explain to me what's bad about constants appearing on both the interface object and the prototype? |
| 20:53 | <zcorpan> | does ecmascript have a convention for constants? |
| 20:53 | <TabAtkins> | Dunno. I suspect the convention is on the interface. |
| 20:54 | <zcorpan> | any example? |
| 20:58 | <TabAtkins> | For example, the Node interface. |
| 20:59 | <zcorpan> | Node was the example used in the thread where constants are on both :) |
| 20:59 | <TabAtkins> | Heh. |
| 20:59 | <TabAtkins> | Math.PI |
| 20:59 | <TabAtkins> | That's *just* an interface object, of course. |
| 20:59 | <zcorpan> | there's no object implementing Math |
| 20:59 | <zcorpan> | yeah |
| 21:02 | <TabAtkins> | In IDB, IDBRequest, IDBCursor, and IDBTransaction all put constants on the interface. The only thing with constants on the object is IDBDatabaseException, which matches the general exception pattern. |
| 21:03 | <zcorpan> | doesn't IDB just use webidl to declare its constants? |
| 21:03 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah. |
| 21:04 | <zcorpan> | then webidl makes the constants appear on the prototype also |
| 21:05 | <TabAtkins> | Oh, then I'm confused. What did you mean by "interface object" if not a WebIDL interface? |
| 21:06 | <zcorpan> | "interface object" is defined in webidl |
| 21:06 | <zcorpan> | window.Node is an interface object |
| 21:06 | <zcorpan> | Node.ELEMENT_NODE is defined and Node.prototype.ELEMENT_NODE is also |
| 21:07 | <TabAtkins> | Ah, okay. Then shrug, if you use IDL you just define them on both I guess. |
| 21:08 | <zcorpan> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2011JulSep/0314.html |
| 21:11 | <TabAtkins> | Ah, then I won't be able to help much. I don't know much about what happens on the pure-ES side of things. |
| 22:10 | zcorpan | removed onundo and onredo from html-elements |
| 22:11 | <zewt> | heh what the |
| 22:11 | <zewt> | just installed current opera and apparently the ui is a straight-up chrome mimic now |
| 22:11 | <bga_> | :( |
| 22:12 | <bga_> | 9.64 is best |
| 22:12 | <zewt> | uhh |
| 22:12 | <zewt> | apparently onbeforeunload is completely broken in opera now? |
| 22:12 | <zewt> | compose mail in gmail, close tab, mail lost |
| 22:13 | <zcorpan> | i don't think onbeforeunload has ever worked in opera |
| 22:13 | <bga_> | opera keep pages during 2 min on memory after you close it |
| 22:14 | <bga_> | may be you want reopen it again |
| 22:14 | <zewt> | well, i compose a mail, close the tab, control-alt-t and the changes are gone, so |
| 22:14 | <zewt> | strange to be missing such a basic thing |
| 22:18 | <zewt> | gah opera made itself the default browser without asking |
| 22:20 | <zcorpan> | opera knows what you want :) |
| 22:20 | <zewt> | opera is telling me what i want, my opinion doesn't seem to enter into it |
| 22:21 | <zcorpan> | which OS? |
| 22:21 | <zewt> | windows |
| 22:21 | <zewt> | just very strange to throw away one of the most basic, well-established things You Have To Ask Permission For |
| 22:25 | <zcorpan> | windows 7? |
| 22:28 | <zewt> | xp |
| 22:29 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 22:29 | <zewt> | it seems like there was a heedless rush for "zero-click installs" (which is actually one-click since there's still EULA crap), without much concern that there are things you have to ask, heh |
| 22:29 | <jgraham> | zewt: Are we using the same Opera? I don't think "chrome mimic" is even close |
| 22:30 | <jgraham> | And yeah, onbeforeunload doesn't work in opera |
| 22:30 | <bga_> | jgraham you just have old config |
| 22:31 | <jgraham> | bga_: It would have to be a pretty epic configuration change |
| 22:32 | <jgraham> | (possibly you just mean that the theme looks a bit like chrome or something) |
| 22:32 | <zcorpan> | maybe opera and chrome look more alike on windows than on mac |
| 22:32 | <jgraham> | But ui !== theme |
| 22:32 | <jgraham> | except in a very superficial way |
| 22:32 | <zewt> | https://zewt.org/~glenn/foo1.png https://zewt.org/~glenn/foo2.png |
| 22:33 | <zewt> | tabs even animate almost identically now |
| 22:33 | <zewt> | the "opera" button is more like FF, i guess |
| 22:34 | <jgraham> | Well you have the same website open in both. That's pretty similar I guess |
| 22:34 | <zewt> | don't get me wrong, i'm fine with browsers ganking stuff from other browsers when it's a good idea, just compared to the last time i installed opera it was pretty "wtf?" |
| 22:35 | <jgraham> | hen was the last time you installed Opera? |
| 22:35 | <zewt> | also i sat there for a second hitting alt-f trying to open the menu and apparently keyboard shortcuts are old and busted :( |
| 22:35 | <jgraham> | It is pretty differnet from Opera 5... |
| 22:35 | <zewt> | 10 maybe? it had a standard menu, heh |
| 22:38 | <Dashiva> | Probably 9.x then |
| 22:39 | <jgraham> | I thought the single menu was introduced in 10.50 |
| 22:39 | <zewt> | maybe an earlier 10? |
| 22:39 | <zewt> | seems like a big UI change to make without bumping a major version number, though |
| 22:40 | <zcorpan> | at opera, .50 is a major version. sometimes. |
| 22:41 | <jgraham> | If our version numbering is correlated with something, no one has explained the system to me and I m not bright enough o reverse engineer it |
| 22:41 | <zewt> | that sounds like a great way to confuse users heh |
| 22:41 | <jgraham> | I'm not saying it *isn't* correlated to anything |
| 22:41 | <zewt> | if i'm on x.y and i upgrade to x.z, i'm doing so with the expectation of not seeing huge ui changes |
| 22:41 | <TabAtkins> | Quick question: on http://www.xanthir.com/etc/exif/ do you see all three Fs as the same size? |
| 22:42 | <jgraham> | Just that I'm not in the desktop team :) |
| 22:42 | <zewt> | left squiggly F is smaller |
| 22:42 | <zewt> | in ff6 |
| 22:43 | <TabAtkins> | What. The. Hell. For some reason FF and only FF is receiving an older version of the first image that's bigger (and thus scales to a smaller size). |
| 22:43 | <jgraham> | Same in Opera |
| 22:44 | <TabAtkins> | IE and Chrome get the correct image. wtf |
| 22:45 | <TabAtkins> | There, fixed. Dunno what was up, but deleting the file on the server and re-uploading fixed it. |
| 22:48 | <zewt> | there are heisenbugs, schroedinbugs and screwitbugs |
| 22:54 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: is there an es5.1 html version? |
