| 10:54 | <annevk> | zcorpan, hey did you think about a test format? |
| 10:54 | <annevk> | it would be great to have something like the HTML stuff |
| 10:54 | <annevk> | input, output, and input contains errors |
| 10:55 | <annevk> | and I guess we should have some shortcuts for input, so that you e.g. do not need to provide the signature, or cue time information |
| 10:55 | <annevk> | (in such a scenario they would just be pre-filled) |
| 11:03 | <annevk> | lol |
| 11:03 | <annevk> | webrtc fork uses respec |
| 11:03 | <smaug____> | so, of the pages which nightly telemetry users have loaded, 2% has had mutation listeners :/ |
| 11:04 | <annevk> | with the silly <dl> way of defining methods |
| 11:04 | <smaug____> | of course it is possible that gmail or some such has mutation listeners |
| 11:04 | <smaug____> | and every new message loads a new page or something... |
| 11:05 | <annevk> | is a different fragment identifier a new page? |
| 11:06 | <smaug____> | in this case? this is not based on urls, but effectively js windows |
| 11:06 | <smaug____> | s/js/dom/ |
| 11:07 | <smaug____> | different pages get a new window |
| 11:07 | <smaug____> | (expect in certain cases with about:blank) |
| 11:07 | <smaug____> | except |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | ah, I think Gmail is pretty much all one window |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | oh, or maybe not |
| 11:08 | <smaug____> | it is using iframes everywhere |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | yeah, forgot about that, ignore me |
| 11:09 | <smaug____> | I should probably count usage per domain |
| 11:09 | <annevk> | gotta catch a train |
| 11:09 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 11:12 | <foolip> | zcorpan, do you have any suggestions for what to do about the "separating cues" issue? |
| 11:16 | <annevk> | I wonder how wildly different Opera's <track> implementation is compared to mine |
| 11:30 | <karlcow> | http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=155295 |
| 11:30 | <karlcow> | Refactoring the Web Interface |
| 11:30 | <karlcow> | John R. Douceur, Jon Howell, Bryan Parno, and Michael Walfish |
| 11:30 | <karlcow> | 24 October 2011 |
| 11:30 | <karlcow> | http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155295/SOSP2011Poster.pdf and http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155295/SOSP2011PosterAbstract.pdf |
| 11:36 | <zcorpan> | foolip: i'm thinking either tolerating whitespace between cues or starting a new cue when seeing a timing line |
| 11:37 | <smaug____> | karlcow: looks like they want to bring not only one but many proprietary stacks to web |
| 11:38 | <karlcow> | yup looks like this |
| 11:38 | <zcorpan> | foolip: where timing line is a line containing -->. if you want --> in data, you'd need to escape it |
| 11:38 | <karlcow> | or I didn't understand and it also seems like an interop nightmare |
| 11:39 | <karlcow> | and also the HTTP layer is placed in a strange place in their diagram. |
| 11:39 | <smaug____> | it certainly looks like interop nightmare |
| 11:39 | <zcorpan> | foolip: another thing that might be common is to not have two blank lines in "header", so the first cue gets eaten |
| 11:39 | <smaug____> | oh, hmm, http is nowhere near network |
| 11:40 | <foolip> | zcorpan, I would also prefer to have timing lines always start new cues and require escaping to allow "-->" inside cues |
| 11:41 | <karlcow> | this post is a lot more fun http://sebleedelisle.com/2011/09/pixelphones-a-huge-display-made-with-smart-phones/ |
| 11:41 | <karlcow> | websocket inside |
| 11:41 | <smaug____> | people in research centers can propose many silly things. I certainly did at my time :) |
| 11:41 | <foolip> | zcorpan, second best would be to strip whitespace when collecting a line, but meh |
| 11:42 | <karlcow> | using the light sequences for localizing the phones is genius |
| 11:46 | <zcorpan> | foolip: WDYT about cue in header? |
| 11:46 | <foolip> | zcorpan, you mean directly following WEBVTT? |
| 11:46 | <zcorpan> | yes |
| 11:47 | <foolip> | if we make a timing line always start a new cue I don't see why we couldn't make that work as well |
| 11:47 | <annevk> | we want this because 1.3% contains an error currently? |
| 11:47 | <annevk> | of SRT files, no less... |
| 11:47 | <foolip> | however, that particular error you are actually quite likely to notice, since it's the first cue |
| 11:47 | <annevk> | the current format seems much easier to read |
| 11:48 | <annevk> | and we have a validator of sorts now :) |
| 11:48 | <foolip> | annevk, except a validator doesn't complain about cues in cues, right? |
| 11:48 | <zcorpan> | annevk: i don't see any reason the error would be less common in VTT |
| 11:49 | <annevk> | foolip, it could warn |
| 11:49 | <foolip> | annevk, but it's valid per the syntax right now |
| 11:49 | <zcorpan> | annevk: "easy to read" is irrelevant since we're not suggesting changing what valid files look like |
| 11:50 | <annevk> | foolip, yeah making --> in cues invalid might be a good idea |
| 11:51 | <zcorpan> | making it invalid and start a new cue might be an even better idea :) |
| 11:51 | <zcorpan> | since it's what the author intended and what the user wants |
| 11:51 | <zcorpan> | and what SRT does |
| 11:52 | <annevk> | euh okay... |
| 11:55 | <annevk> | SRT also does , and not . |
| 11:55 | <annevk> | still not sure why we don't do SRT if that's what everyone wants |
| 11:55 | <annevk> | can't really both argue we need a new format but UAs are also going to support SRT |
| 11:58 | <zcorpan> | SRT parsers support both , and . |
| 11:59 | <zcorpan> | personally i think we should have specified and extended SRT, but that's not where we're at |
| 12:00 | <zcorpan> | anyway, i'm not doing this to end up with SRT. i'm doing this to get error handling in VTT better based on what errors people do in SRT |
| 12:01 | <zcorpan> | e.g. it turned out that errors in timestamps was pretty rare, so i'm not proposing to make that more lax after researching that |
| 12:13 | <bga_> | http://kizu.github.com/Castle-of-Sinister-Sorcerers/ |
| 12:34 | <MikeSmith> | anybody know when the content model for the <dt> element was changed to allow flow content? |
| 12:34 | <MikeSmith> | (instead of just phrasing content) |
| 12:36 | <MikeSmith> | seems it was some time after May 25 |
| 12:40 | <zcorpan> | http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=6617&to=6618 |
| 12:43 | <zcorpan> | hmm. <b\n> gets dropped but <b \n> is parsed |
| 12:44 | <annevk> | yeah white space rules in the parser are funky |
| 12:45 | <annevk> | I filed a bug on that |
| 12:45 | <annevk> | as they do not handle FF either |
| 12:45 | <annevk> | while the timing/setting algorithm does |
| 12:47 | <zcorpan> | yeah |
| 12:58 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: thanks |
| 13:47 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: why was http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14552 not emailed to public-html? |
| 13:48 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: maybe because of teh component |
| 13:48 | <MikeSmith> | checking now |
| 13:49 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 13:49 | <MikeSmith> | I have "other Hixie drafts" component set up to don't generate notifications to public-html |
| 13:50 | <MikeSmith> | but I can change that if you wan |
| 13:51 | <zcorpan> | foolip: ^ |
| 14:07 | <foolip> | MikeSmith (when back), was this changed recently? I've filed loads of bugs and can't remember this happening before |
| 15:05 | <annevk> | foolip, <track> is in W3C HTML, WebVTT is not |
| 15:05 | <annevk> | foolip, I filed quite a few bugs on WebVTT nobody got emailed about either :( |
| 15:10 | <foolip> | annevk, how can I find them? |
| 15:11 | <annevk> | 14536 - 14543 |
| 15:11 | <annevk> | and 14547 |
| 15:11 | <foolip> | will add <track> to all of them |
| 15:11 | <annevk> | thanks! |
| 15:12 | <rillian_> | indeed! |
| 15:12 | <annevk> | I will add <track> in the future |
| 15:12 | <rillian_> | thanks annevk, I didn't see them either |
| 15:15 | <foolip> | annevk, check http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/WebVTT to see if they're all listed |
| 15:15 | <foolip> | will mark the non-editorial ones as blocker as well |
| 15:25 | <foolip> | annevk, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14547 is not very clear |
| 15:26 | <foolip> | two issues in one |
| 15:26 | <foolip> | oops, was I mistaken to mark http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14551 as <track>? |
| 15:28 | <zcorpan> | you didn't mark it as <track> :) |
| 15:28 | <foolip> | zcorpan, did you? |
| 15:28 | <foolip> | oh, I'm not even CC'd, it must have been someone else |
| 15:29 | <zcorpan> | i filed it |
| 15:29 | <annevk> | foolip, tried to clarify it, did not bother with splitting the issue for now... |
| 15:31 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, 1) If we're supposed to still use testharnessreport.js, why does the "Basic usage" section in testharness.js docs at the top of the file not mention it? It just says to add <script src="http://w3c-test.org/resources/testharness.js"></script>; |
| 15:31 | <AryehGregor> | And 2) why is using an absolute URL wrong? Using a relative URL like that will break any checkout of the tests other than w3c-test.org. Users of other checkouts might not be able to put a resources directory in the web root. |
| 15:32 | <AryehGregor> | Or even if they can, why should they have to? |
| 15:34 | <AryehGregor> | I guess using a relative URL makes sense if you want to test what effect changes to the harness have on webapps tests, so you don't have to manually change the <script> URLs. |
| 15:34 | <AryehGregor> | (which is what I was doing) |
| 15:34 | <AryehGregor> | Anyway, if we want people to use relative URLs, testharness.js should say that. The way it says it should be used is with an absolute URL. |
| 15:34 | <AryehGregor> | annevk, ^^ |
| 15:37 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: That example should prbably be changed |
| 15:37 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, please do. It's what I was looking out to figure out how the harness should be used. |
| 15:38 | <jgraham> | Using absolute urls is wrong because it makes it harder for people to import the tests into their local testing systems |
| 15:39 | <timeless> | i'm not sure that's really true fwiw |
| 15:39 | <jgraham> | Using resources on external servers is horrible badness so one would need to muck about with DNS or something |
| 15:39 | <timeless> | mozilla's testharness actually redirects dns lookups iirc |
| 15:39 | <AryehGregor> | Or you could just do a search-and-replace on all the URLs as part of the process of checking them out. |
| 15:39 | <AryehGregor> | That would work too. |
| 15:39 | <timeless> | search and replace otoh tends to lead to merge hell |
| 15:39 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: Non-trivial patches are always a source of pain |
| 15:39 | <AryehGregor> | You can search-and-replace it back before doing any kind of merge. |
| 15:40 | <zewt> | D: |
| 15:40 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: GLWT if the person who made the original changes isn't the same person doing the update |
| 15:40 | <jgraham> | timeless: Yes, I think Mozilla do that. We typically don't (but could of course) |
| 15:41 | <AryehGregor> | If we're going to do it this way, then 1) don't assume people have control of the web root, or want to add a resources directory there -- make it relative to the current directory, not the root. 2) Post clear instructions somewhere on how you're supposed to clone the webapps tests, because as it stands a simple clone will be completely broken. |
| 15:41 | <jgraham> | In any case using relative URLs isn't bad for browser vendors, but absolue urls can be |
| 15:41 | <timeless> | fwiw, i'm not really sure where i sit on this |
| 15:41 | <timeless> | i have a spec i'm working on which has the absolute url in it |
| 15:41 | <AryehGregor> | Also, the dvcs.w3.org versions should really work if possible, so that you can easily look at old versions of the tests. |
| 15:42 | <timeless> | and i kind of wanted to be able to have a local instance w/o web access and w/o having to install a test harness |
| 15:42 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: I think for any non-trivial use you will have to install locally |
| 15:42 | <AryehGregor> | Plus because it's confusing that they don't work. |
| 15:42 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, yes, if only so that your tests don't suddenly behave differently one day because the remote copy changed . . . |
| 15:47 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, is there a place to file bugs on the harness? |
| 15:48 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: I think bugzilla has a componen |
| 15:48 | <jgraham> | t |
| 15:48 | <jgraham> | Dunno if I get email though |
| 15:48 | <jgraham> | I hink I might |
| 15:49 | <jgraham> | +t |
| 15:49 | <jgraham> | Anyway fixed the documentation |
| 15:50 | <jgraham> | I think you could fix the webapps wiki to tell people how to set up a local copy of the testsuite |
| 15:50 | <jgraham> | Really testharness.js should be in its own repository |
| 15:50 | <jgraham> | Or one called "resources" |
| 15:55 | <AryehGregor> | Is there any way to set up hg so that it automatically clones a second repo when you clone the first? |
| 15:55 | <AryehGregor> | So cloning the tests also clones the harness? |
| 15:55 | <AryehGregor> | Like SVN deps or git submodules or whatever? |
| 15:55 | <timeless> | hg subrepo |
| 15:55 | AryehGregor | hasn't used either of those features much, so might not understand how they work |
| 15:56 | <timeless> | basically you create a repo and add a .hgsub file which lists the two other repos you actually want |
| 15:56 | <AryehGregor> | So it would still be possible to clone the subrepo separately even though that might make no sense, I guess? |
| 15:57 | <timeless> | yes |
| 15:57 | <timeless> | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5621670/hg-sub-repository-dependencies |
| 15:57 | <timeless> | is probably worth reading (i haven't) |
| 15:57 | <timeless> | you could skip the mostly empty repo if you like and just have the main content one also have the subrepo directives |
| 15:57 | <timeless> | but if someone for instance has 5 wgs |
| 15:57 | <timeless> | or specs |
| 15:57 | AryehGregor | is catching up on ten days of e-mail |
| 15:58 | <timeless> | and each spec has a sub dependency for the same third party repo |
| 15:58 | <timeless> | (call it "testharness") |
| 15:58 | <timeless> | then making them have 5 copies as subrepos is cruel |
| 15:58 | <timeless> | when they could instead have 5 repos as siblings to their one copy of that testharness repo |
| 15:58 | <timeless> | make sense? |
| 15:59 | <timeless> | http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/Subrepository is the official documentation |
| 16:16 | <_bga> | oh new js min trend, if(a != 15) -> if(a^15) |
| 16:19 | <nlogax> | too bad they give different results |
| 16:20 | <_bga> | for a = 15.3 - yes |
| 16:20 | <nlogax> | 4294967311 ^ 15, 4294967311 != 15, oops |
| 16:20 | <_bga> | too |
| 16:21 | <nlogax> | but i'm sure it will take off anyway :D |
| 16:29 | <_bga> | hm. if(a-15) ! |
| 16:31 | <zewt> | a somewhat more effective way of making code smaller: deflate. |
| 16:31 | <Philip`> | An even more effective way: write less code |
| 16:32 | <_bga> | i know but for guys from 140bytes its sport |
| 16:39 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 16:41 | <divya> | காலை வனக்கம் dglazkov! |
| 16:41 | <dglazkov> | that looks curly |
| 16:42 | <_bga> | i need google translate plugin for IRC client |
| 16:43 | <nlogax> | http://scripts.irssi.org/scripts/gtrans.pl |
| 16:45 | <_bga> | thanks :) |
| 16:52 | <annevk> | AryehGregor, I didn't know about the bogus documentation (does it also say to not have testharnessreport.js?), hopefully it's not too hard to revert |
| 16:52 | <hsivonen> | Gnome Terminal fails with Tamil :-( |
| 17:07 | <dglazkov> | divya: what language is it? |
| 17:08 | <divya> | dglazkov: tamil :) |
| 17:08 | <divya> | CURLYY |
| 17:08 | <divya> | hahaha it is curly |
| 17:09 | <dglazkov> | cool. India is a crazy place. So many languages. So many people. So many foods to try |
| 17:09 | <divya> | http://translate.google.com/#auto|en|காலை%20வனக்கம் |
| 17:09 | <divya> | almost there I meant good morning. :P |
| 17:09 | <divya> | it is very crazy |
| 17:09 | <divya> | and I am trying all the delish foood now. |
| 17:12 | <dglazkov> | has anyone figured out why some countries are really big on delicious food and some are like, "Potatoes!!!" |
| 17:13 | <divya> | hahahah |
| 17:13 | <divya> | good point. |
| 17:14 | <divya> | ya funny thing chillies were not native to India but indians are big on spice. |
| 17:14 | <divya> | err i mean heat |
| 17:31 | <jgraham> | dglazkov: Climate, mostly, I think |
| 17:47 | <rabbi1> | how to make a website I view float left ? |
| 18:29 | <AryehGregor> | annevk, yes, it didn't mention testharnessreport.js anymore. jgraham fixed it: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/rev/bcf81d8686ab |
| 19:35 | <AryehGregor> | Are init*Event() methods deprecated in new APIs? If so, what's the correct replacement, event constructors? |
| 19:35 | <Hixie> | yes and yes |
| 19:35 | <AryehGregor> | k. |
| 19:35 | <Hixie> | not just deprecated, they shouldn't be added at all |
| 19:35 | <AryehGregor> | That's what I mean. |
| 19:37 | <AryehGregor> | Where's an example of event constructors in a spec that I can point to? |
| 19:37 | <Hixie> | all of HTML's events are done that way |
| 19:37 | <AryehGregor> | Okay. |
| 19:37 | <Hixie> | search for ": Event {" |
| 19:43 | <heycam> | Hixie, you didn't remove the existing init* methods though did you? |
| 19:43 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 19:44 | <Hixie> | they are gone |
| 19:44 | <heycam> | even for interfaces that have been deployed for a while? |
| 19:44 | <Hixie> | none of the events defined in the html spec are particularly old |
| 19:44 | <Hixie> | none of the event interfaces, i should say |
| 19:44 | <heycam> | ah, ok |
| 19:53 | <AryehGregor> | Hixie, is the "resolve a URL" algorithm in the spec correct/stable? |
| 19:53 | <AryehGregor> | I seem to recall it wandered around a bit. |
| 19:59 | AryehGregor | determines it's way too complicated to incorporate into reflection tests anyway, bleh |
| 20:49 | <TabAtkins> | Hm, it appears that all of my windows have lost their decorations. Time to reboot, I guess. |
| 20:50 | <bga_> | http://mobile.twitter.com/wendyg/status/128554733714669568 |
| 20:50 | <paul_irish> | "R.I.P. John McCarthy, father of AI, inventor of Lisp, suddenly at home last night. Pls RT." |
| 20:56 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, what should we do when doing assert_throws() with new exception types, like INVALID_NODE_TYPE_ERR? |
| 20:57 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, wait, never mind. |
| 20:57 | <AryehGregor> | It was a typo on my part. |
| 20:58 | <AryehGregor> | I mean, the current testharness.js still doesn't match the spec, but that can be fixed. |
| 22:00 | <rniwa> | AryehGregor: yt? |
| 22:03 | <zewt> | chrome accepts xhr.responseType = "blob" but xhr.response comes back as null? :( |
| 22:03 | <zewt> | (maybe I'm doing something wrong, but if they don't support it yet, it shouldn't accept "blob" in the first place) |
| 22:04 | <AryehGregor> | rniwa, yep. |
| 22:04 | <AryehGregor> | (not for long, though) |
| 22:05 | <AryehGregor> | (around half an hour) |
| 22:06 | <rniwa> | AryehGregor: k |
| 22:06 | <rniwa> | AryehGregor: thanks for responding to my emails :) |
| 22:06 | <AryehGregor> | rniwa, I'll write some more tomorrow. |
| 22:06 | <rniwa> | AryehGregor: I totally understand the delays and all that jazz so take your time :) |
| 22:06 | <rniwa> | AryehGregor: especially given that you're no longer compensated for your work |
| 22:06 | <AryehGregor> | rniwa, actually, I am. |
| 22:06 | <rniwa> | oh good! |
| 22:06 | <AryehGregor> | If I weren't, I wouldn't be doing it. :) |
| 22:06 | <rniwa> | glad to hear that |
| 22:06 | <AryehGregor> | (but I expect to continue to be compensated by someone) |
| 22:07 | <rniwa> | okay, I feel less guilty to delegate more work to you then :P |
| 22:07 | <rniwa> | AryehGregor: anyway, the immediate concern for me is whether my spec should define what undo/redo events do or not |
| 22:08 | <AryehGregor> | rniwa, it would make sense. |
| 22:08 | <rniwa> | ok |
| 22:08 | <rniwa> | AryehGregor: the biggest problem I have with how selection is restored on undo/redo |
| 22:09 | <rniwa> | AryehGregor: also, there are many selection behaviors that can't be cross-plaform |
| 22:09 | <rniwa> | e.g. extending between word boundaries on Windows and Mac use different conventions to include/exclude trailing whitespace |
| 22:09 | <rniwa> | so those things probably need to be investigated |
| 22:10 | <AryehGregor> | Yes. |
| 22:10 | <rniwa> | though I don't think it'll affect undo/redo that much |
| 22:10 | <rniwa> | except the one case I pointed out which is whether or not the deleted content should be selected after undo |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | AryehGregor: any particular aspect of it? |
| 23:10 | <rniwa> | AryehGregor: btw, we might want to consider supporting contenteditable=plaintext |
| 23:10 | <rniwa> | AryehGregor: it seems like websites like facebook, google+, code editors, etc... are working around the issue |
| 23:10 | <rniwa> | by emulating contenteditable |
| 23:11 | <rniwa> | but it'll be much better if UA just provided a way to enable plain text editing |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | hm, i wonder how the existence of at least one vendor having extended TTF to support colour will affect svg fonts |
| 23:21 | <heycam> | Hixie, pointer? |
| 23:21 | <heycam> | Hixie, I'm hoping to work further on the SVG glyphs within opentype proposal |
| 23:21 | <Hixie> | OS X Lion has a colour font for emoji |
| 23:22 | <heycam> | Hixie, they're bitmaps in the font |
| 23:22 | <heycam> | (afaik) |
| 23:22 | <Hixie> | must be pretty huge bitmaps, they scale rather well |
| 23:22 | <zewt> | do they scale well downwards? bitmaps tend to do poorly at that |
| 23:22 | heycam | should try and get lion at some point |
| 23:22 | <Hixie> | they seemed to work well for me at small and large sizes |
| 23:24 | <heycam> | althought what I had read about this "sbix" table was for the iPhone emoji font |
| 23:24 | <heycam> | so it might be that the Lion one is different |
| 23:29 | <Hixie> | the iphone one is definitely bitmaps |
| 23:29 | <Hixie> | i wonder how big the bitmaps are if it is bitmaps |
| 23:29 | <Hixie> | i'll have to play with it when i get back home to my lion box |
| 23:33 | <AryehGregor> | rniwa, could you file a bug on that? I thought I had one, but it seems not. |
| 23:33 | <rniwa> | AryehGregor: oh w3c? |
| 23:33 | <rniwa> | s/oh/on/ |
| 23:33 | <AryehGregor> | rniwa, yeah. There's a link in the spec, at the top: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/editing/raw-file/tip/editing.html |
| 23:34 | <rniwa> | AryehGregor: ah nice |
| 23:34 | <rniwa> | AryehGregor: I should really move my spec to W3C as well |
| 23:34 | <AryehGregor> | Hixie, I was thinking of whether it was worth it to implement it in JS for my reflection tests, but concluded it wasn't anyway, it'd be much easier to just compute expected values for tests by hand. |
| 23:36 | <Hixie> | unless you're playing with some quite dodgy URLs, I doubt any future spec changes will affect you |
| 23:36 | <rniwa> | AryehGregor: filed http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14554 |
| 23:36 | <Hixie> | but that seems like a reaonable conclusion |