| 03:23 | <Yuhong> | Here is a case where interleaving document.write with appendChild of <base> element had led to a 0-day security bug: |
| 03:23 | <Yuhong> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=607222 |
| 17:26 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: You can fake [[Class]] with a custom toString, but then Foo.prototype.toString !== Object.prototype.toString so you just break the spec elsewhere |
| 17:26 | <AryehGregor> | gsnedders, of course, it's not perfect. It will handle the common case of alert(), though. |
| 17:26 | <AryehGregor> | ES5 doesn't allow JS to set [[Class]], so of course you're never going to really get it right from JS. |
| 17:27 | <gsnedders> | And ES6 will get rid of [[Class]] entirely |
| 17:59 | <AryehGregor> | So FromPropertyDescriptor is defined to only work for a fully populated property descriptor, "such as that returned from [[GetOwnProperty]] (see 8.12.1)". But [[GetOwnProperty]] doesn't say what to do if the object's property wasn't fully populated. |
| 18:00 | <AryehGregor> | If the spec says a property is defined with a [[Get]] field but no [[Set]] field, what's GetOwnProperty supposed to fill in for [[Set]]? |
| 18:09 | <AryehGregor> | Noteworthy: IE9 has a grand total of one WebIDL bug that I've been able to find so far. |
| 18:09 | <AryehGregor> | That's pretty darned impressive. |
| 18:09 | <AryehGregor> | (it always has .length 0 for functions, instead of equal to the max number of arguments) |
| 18:12 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: Not that surprising seeming they tried to impl it, and their testing of new stuff tends to be pretty good |
| 18:14 | <AryehGregor> | Yeah, I'm not surprised. |
| 18:14 | <AryehGregor> | I assume other implementations predated the spec, and IE9 wrote it from scratch per spec. |
| 18:32 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: AFAIK nobody else has changed their impl in > 10 years |
| 18:32 | <AryehGregor> | gsnedders, apparently Gecko is creating a new implementation, which is deployed for NodeList in current builds. |
| 18:33 | <AryehGregor> | That seems to be per spec, although one of the tests fails (apparently because of a bug in getOPD). |
| 18:45 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders, yeah, our DOM bindings are being rewritten mostly from scratch to be less language-neutral |
| 18:46 | <zewt> | an unusual goal for a rewrite, heh |
| 18:46 | <Ms2ger> | zewt, you don't want to know how much support for python cost(s) us in code complexity |
| 19:06 | AryehGregor | discovers that to get an up-to-date node.js, he can either a) not use distributor packages, b) upgrade to 11.10, or c) try using newer packages and get into a rat's nest of dependency failures |
| 19:07 | AryehGregor | opts for (b) |
| 19:07 | <AryehGregor> | Fortunately, it's been a few years since an Ubuntu upgrade really broke my computer too badly. |
| 19:31 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: See, I'm scared of doing that on my desktop because it's ubuntu-standard (not ubuntu-desktop) with X.org and window manager and all installed manually. Seems more likely to break than something remotely standard. |
| 19:32 | <AryehGregor> | Ah. |
| 19:32 | <AryehGregor> | I stick to the well-trodden paths, personally. |
| 19:32 | AryehGregor | is alarmed that it thinks it's going to remove gnome-panel, since he relies on that, but will figure out details later |
| 19:32 | <gsnedders> | GNOME Panel is gone with GNOME 3. |
| 19:33 | <gsnedders> | But Ubuntu uses Unity by default anyway |
| 19:33 | <AryehGregor> | Right, and that doesn't use gnome-panel either by default, but you can still start it manually in 11.04. |
| 19:33 | <AryehGregor> | Which I do. |
| 19:33 | <AryehGregor> | And it works fine. |
| 19:33 | <AryehGregor> | I wrote a Google+ post on why I feel it's necessary. |
| 19:33 | <gsnedders> | Ah, you only have GNOME Shell and Unity as options in 11.10 |
| 19:33 | <AryehGregor> | Maybe 11.10 Unity makes it unnecessary, I dunno. |
| 19:33 | <gsnedders> | Eh, Unity/GNOME Shell both suck :) |
| 19:34 | <gsnedders> | (I finally moved away from GNOME on my laptop when 11.10 came out… Now experimenting with Arch Linux on it, but it's not prompting for encrypted drive password on boot, yay) |
| 19:39 | <AryehGregor> | Don't you love how installing all the new packages takes a couple of hours, but it will sometimes randomly pause in the middle to prompt you about something, so you can't leave it unattended? |
| 19:39 | <AryehGregor> | And partway through the process, all your existing programs stop working so you can't usefully use the computer? |
| 19:39 | <AryehGregor> | <3 Linux |
| 19:42 | AryehGregor | thinks package management is great, but it should really be totally revamped |
| 19:43 | <AryehGregor> | There's no reason most of these packages can't be installed in a separate directory and only activated on reboot, say. And I can't believe bulk upgrades can't be optimized a lot. |
| 19:43 | <AryehGregor> | Like using binary delta compression, for starters, the way Chrome does. |
| 19:43 | AryehGregor | grumbles |
| 19:48 | <Ms2ger> | Whoa, webkit removed document.width/height? |
| 19:54 | <Ms2ger> | TabAtkins, so what attribute normalization are you guys talking about in the the DIDOM thread? |
| 20:09 | <Ms2ger> | And there is Shelley again... |
| 20:32 | <Philip`> | AryehGregor: Gentoo is nice and never asks you for information during installation |
| 20:33 | <AryehGregor> | Philip`, what does it do instead, give you a root shell and expect you to install X and create any users you want by hand? |
| 20:33 | <Philip`> | (though admittedly it does tell you to do various things after installation, like checking diffs of all the configuration files and deciding which changes to accept, or like reinstalling some other packages that depend on an incompatible version of what you already reinstalled) |
| 20:34 | <Philip`> | AryehGregor: I mean installing new packages onto a working system, not installing a new one from scratch |
| 20:34 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, okay. |
| 20:35 | <Philip`> | (When installing from scratch, it does give you a root shell and expect you to do the stuff in http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-x86-quickinstall.xml (or the more verbosely described version in other documentation)) |
| 20:37 | AryehGregor | prefers to stick with boring distributions and spend his time using software that lets you actually do useful things, like web browsers |
| 20:41 | <Philip`> | Yeah, it's not generally time-efficient |
| 22:26 | <AryehGregor> | The best part is packages where the configuration file has to be edited by hand in most cases but there's no separate file for the defaults, so if you install the package you'll almost surely modify the config file, and then it will conflict on every single upgrade. |
| 22:26 | <AryehGregor> | Examples: mysql, etckeeper. |
| 22:31 | <AryehGregor> | . . . rsnapshot. Because no one modifies the default /etc/rsnapshot.conf, right? That would be just silly! |
| 22:32 | <zewt> | better than distros that compile everything on install, as if that's a reasonable thing to do on a loaded server |
| 22:35 | <AryehGregor> | But think of what a great speedup you'll get from being able to use SSE4 instructions! |
| 22:36 | <zewt> | yeah, it makes file servers and http totally blaze |
| 22:36 | <AryehGregor> | Especially when your motherboard dies and you temporarily move the disk to another chassis to reduce downtime and it turns out the other CPU is slightly older and so your machine doesn't boot! |
| 22:36 | <zewt> | heh |
| 22:37 | <zewt> | i stopped using ubuntu after my last wouldn't-boot-after-upgrade failure |
| 22:37 | <AryehGregor> | I always managed to get it to boot after upgrade. |
| 22:37 | <AryehGregor> | Eventually. |
| 22:37 | <paul_irish> | I'm working with someone that wants to suggest EventTarget.on (as a method) .. what's the best venue for that proposal? |
| 22:37 | <AryehGregor> | To be fair, that's better than I can say for Windows. |
| 22:37 | <AryehGregor> | paul_irish, what would it do? |
| 22:37 | <zewt> | the upgrade wouldn't boot with the new kernel; i tried downgrading the kernel so i could try to fix it, and it turned out it also used a new grub (iirc) that wouldn't boot on the old kernel, they were interlocked |
| 22:38 | <paul_irish> | addEventListener mostly. probably could also get the opt-in delegation that has been discussed a little bit |
| 22:38 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, not booting on a new kernel, that's happened to me. |
| 22:38 | <AryehGregor> | Sometimes I've wound up booting o the kernel from the under-development version, or a kernel.org kernel. |
| 22:39 | <annevk> | paul_irish: www-dom |
| 22:39 | <AryehGregor> | s/ o / / |
| 22:39 | <zewt> | that's bad enough, but breaking every standard downgrade procedure by interlocking upgrades--that's just a poor distro |
| 22:39 | <annevk> | paul_irish: www-dom⊙wo that is |
| 22:39 | <zewt> | (went back to debian) |
| 22:39 | <paul_irish> | yup. kk thx annevk |
| 22:39 | <AryehGregor> | Hey, it's all about tradeoffs. |
| 22:39 | <annevk> | paul_irish: why not EventTarget.on.event.add() btw? |
| 22:39 | <paul_irish> | so much typing. |
| 22:40 | <annevk> | I guess it depends on what flexibility you want |
| 22:40 | <paul_irish> | yeah |
| 22:40 | <AryehGregor> | Would you prefer the latest version of everything, plus new shiny half-baked software applications that have had rigorous usability testing on all four of their features? Or a reliable, stable machine that is guaranteed to boot the very finest software from three years ago? |
| 22:40 | <_bga> | annevk :/ |
| 22:41 | <_bga> | div.onClick._add(_fn) |
| 22:41 | <AryehGregor> | Ubuntu is a bit flaky, but I prefer being able to use almost all of my software from the official package repos and not be missing much. |
| 22:41 | <_bga> | div.onClick._del(_fn) |
| 22:41 | <AryehGregor> | It's reportedly a lot more reliable than Fedora. |
| 22:41 | <annevk> | _bga: o_O |
| 22:41 | annevk | is not sure what is going on |
| 22:41 | <AryehGregor> | (pretty much the only things I use not from the official repos are web browsers) |
| 22:41 | <annevk> | better go to bed while that is the case :) |
| 22:41 | <annevk> | nn |
| 22:42 | <_bga> | tomorrow |
| 22:42 | <_bga> | ok |
| 22:42 | <_bga> | good night annevk |
| 22:42 | <AryehGregor> | Okay, time to try rebooting. |
| 22:46 | <AryehGregor> | I have to hand it to Canonical. |
| 22:46 | <AryehGregor> | That is about the smoothest upgrade imaginable. |
| 22:46 | <AryehGregor> | (at least the reboot part of it) |
| 22:47 | <AryehGregor> | Too bad Unity is still broken, and now starting gnome-panel doesn't seem to work, so I can't actually figure out which XChat window is which without going through all of them one by one. |
| 22:47 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: They are telling you to level up and use screen + irssi |
| 22:48 | <AryehGregor> | I still have multiple browser windows and terminal windows open. |
| 22:48 | <AryehGregor> | No way to tell them apart. |
| 22:49 | <finn_a> | I wish I could use a local IRC client but for some reason it keeps disconnecting on me |
| 22:50 | <finn_a> | Webchat it is |
| 22:50 | <AryehGregor> | Okay, so gnome-panel is still around, it just doesn't work from Alt-F2 . . . |
| 22:50 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, /usr/local/bin, great. |
| 22:53 | <AryehGregor> | Also, I notice Unity has been improved to handle two monitors correctly now, where "correctly" means "the left-hand monitor must be the primary one" instead of "the left-hand side of both monitors kind of works except not really because the design specs didn't say how to behave for multiple monitors and so the behavior is essentially random". |
| 22:53 | <finn_a> | Too true. |
| 22:54 | <AryehGregor> | Not that I'm blaming them. I mean, if you have only like two guys writing your features, it's probably a good idea to not actually let users have options. |
| 22:54 | <finn_a> | Ubuntu is sweet, but sometimes, if you want to do something just a little bit outside the ordinary path, you'll struggle. |
| 22:54 | <finn_a> | Humm... I mean, the beaten path. I think |
| 22:55 | <AryehGregor> | That way, the 16% of users who are actually happy with the defaults can have a great experience, the 61% of users who don't like the defaults but are too lazy to change them will get used to the workarounds they figure out and eventually not care, and only 23% will be angry enough to switch to another distro. |
| 22:55 | <AryehGregor> | (figures may not add up to 100% due to rounding and/or fabrication) |
| 22:56 | <finn_a> | Seems about right. |
| 22:57 | <AryehGregor> | Also, it seems like Alt-F2 now refuses to run the command you actually specify and instead autocompletes with no obvious way to override it, even if you give a full path. |
| 22:57 | <finn_a> | How annoying. |
| 22:57 | <AryehGregor> | Apparently its search index hasn't heard of /usr/bin/gnome-panel, so it must not exist, and I must mean /usr/bin/gnome-panel-screenshot instead. |
| 22:58 | <AryehGregor> | It's only fair, I'm sure I'm a backwards cretin for wanting GNOME 2 features anyway. |
| 22:58 | <AryehGregor> | Problem is, I have no idea how Alt-F2 works or how to replicate its effect (namely running a graphical program without having to keep it open in some terminal or screen or such). |
| 22:59 | <finn_a> | There's always the desktop/GUI solution. |
| 22:59 | <AryehGregor> | What? |
| 22:59 | <finn_a> | If you can stick a shortcut somewhere that solves it. |
| 23:00 | <AryehGregor> | Oh. |
| 23:00 | <AryehGregor> | Right. |
| 23:00 | <AryehGregor> | Those things. |
| 23:00 | <finn_a> | Pretty annoying though. I agree. |
| 23:00 | <AryehGregor> | Now the fun question is, will it actually let me create a shortcut by path, or do I have to browse to it in nautilus and drag because users aren't supposed to know about filesystems? |
| 23:01 | AryehGregor | waits however many minutes for nautilus to display a few hundred sorted icons in /usr/bin |
| 23:01 | <AryehGregor> | Okay, less than a minute. |
| 23:01 | <finn_a> | Lucky there |
| 23:02 | <finn_a> | So, the atmosphere here in the IRC chat is quite different from the forums |
| 23:02 | <finn_a> | I think I like it |
| 23:02 | <AryehGregor> | Brilliant, it copied it. That is exactly the correct default action when dragging an executable! |
| 23:02 | <AryehGregor> | Do actual WHATWG people use the forums? |
| 23:02 | <finn_a> | I have no idea. I just browsed there and said wat |
| 23:02 | <AryehGregor> | I mean, like, the people who edit specs and stuff. |
| 23:02 | <AryehGregor> | Also, don't equate my occasional ranting with the normal atmosphere of this channel. |
| 23:03 | <AryehGregor> | I only occasionally indulge, when I want to procrastinate and no one is saying anything important that I'm disrupting. |
| 23:03 | <finn_a> | Nah I've been lurking for a while now |
| 23:03 | <finn_a> | Nothing as inane as the stuff in the forums |
| 23:03 | AryehGregor | cannot find a way to make a link using the GUI, so resorts to ln -s from the command line so that he can click the shortcut because the command itself doesn't do what he wants from the command line |
| 23:04 | <finn_a> | Oh lawd. |
| 23:04 | <AryehGregor> | Success! |
| 23:04 | <finn_a> | Sometimes I'm glad I'm stuck with Windows. |
| 23:04 | <finn_a> | Then I remember, I'm stuck with Windows... |
| 23:04 | <AryehGregor> | That's the great thing about Linux. It perpetually annoys you with stupid and totally unnecessary inconveniences, but then makes you feel smart because you figure out how to work around them |
| 23:04 | <AryehGregor> | . |
| 23:05 | <AryehGregor> | Unless it makes you feel stupid because you can't figure out how to work around them, in which case you should stick to Windows. |
| 23:05 | <finn_a> | Or for that sake, Mac. |
| 23:05 | <finn_a> | I must say. I tried. I tried, Linux, I really did. |
| 23:05 | <finn_a> | But, I can't seem to install it at all. |
| 23:06 | <finn_a> | I don't have a CD drive |
| 23:06 | <finn_a> | And the Wubi install doesn't work for me |
| 23:06 | <AryehGregor> | Okay, now everything is actually working the way I want it again. I'm pleased. This is below average downtime for an Ubuntu upgrade. |
| 23:06 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, wait, spoke too soon. |
| 23:06 | <finn_a> | It begins... |
| 23:07 | <AryehGregor> | gnome-panel made a top panel that partially overlaps the Unity panel. |
| 23:07 | <finn_a> | How darn annoying |
| 23:07 | <finn_a> | Such is life in Ubuntu 11. |
| 23:08 | <AryehGregor> | 11.10. |
| 23:08 | <AryehGregor> | Not 11. |
| 23:08 | <AryehGregor> | It's YY.MM. |
| 23:09 | <finn_a^> | So apparently it's cool to crash. |
| 23:09 | <finn_a^> | While I'm typing out a long sentence |
| 23:09 | <AryehGregor> | Well, you said you use Windows, so yeah. |
| 23:09 | <finn_a^> | True enough |
| 23:10 | <AryehGregor> | . . . Windows did actually crash? |
| 23:10 | <finn_a^> | Nah it was Opera |
| 23:10 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, okay. |
| 23:10 | <finn_a^> | Makes sense still |
| 23:10 | <AryehGregor> | Because I thought Windows was actually reasonably stable these days. |
| 23:10 | <finn_a^> | It sort of is but my netbook only has like 1 gig of ram or something |
| 23:10 | <finn_a^> | Three tabs at the same time? Nyeeeah. Maybe |
| 23:12 | <finn_a^> | http://forums.whatwg.org/bb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4741 |
| 23:12 | <finn_a^> | Is this the real world? |
| 23:13 | <finn_a^> | I mean, I can't really blame the guy, with all the HTML5 hype, but, really? |
| 23:14 | <AryehGregor> | Looks like zcorpan is the only actual WHATWG person who uses the forum. |
| 23:15 | <finn_a^> | Something like that. |
| 23:16 | <finn_a^> | Maybe I should try unetbootin |
| 23:16 | <finn_a^> | ...In that case I'm getting Debian though |
| 23:22 | <finn_a^> | Guess I'll try it |
| 23:22 | <finn_a^> | Talk to you. |
| 23:40 | AryehGregor | finds himself poring through an strace of gnome-panel to figure out where it's reading its configuration from |
| 23:40 | <AryehGregor> | This is more like a typical upgrade now. |
| 23:50 | AryehGregor | gives up on getting gnome-panel to work correctly for now |
| 23:51 | AryehGregor | slightly suspects he destroyed his gnome-panel settings and they just don't take effect until GNOME restarts or something |
| 23:58 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, wow, they borked Alt-Tab. |
| 23:59 | <AryehGregor> | Hitting it twice in a row no longer lets you switch between two windows. |
| 23:59 | <zewt> | haha |
| 23:59 | <AryehGregor> | . . . |
| 23:59 | <zewt> | yeah uh that's universal windows ui 101 |
| 23:59 | <AryehGregor> | The first one gets me from terminal to Chrome, the second gets me from Chrome window 1 to Chrome window 2. |
| 23:59 | <zewt> | ("windowing ui") |
| 23:59 | <AryehGregor> | I have to hit tab twice to get back to the terminal. |
| 23:59 | <zewt> | if they think that's an acceptable change, then they have no business making a windowing system |