| 00:01 | <zewt> | ick, wow, some 101 ugliness on google somehow |
| 00:02 | <TabAtkins> | zewt: ? |
| 00:02 | <zewt> | opened google's front page, started typing, and while I was typing, it moved the cursor to the beginning of the input box |
| 00:02 | <zewt> | had the feel of an onload race |
| 00:02 | <TabAtkins> | Ah, yeah, almost certainly was. |
| 00:02 | <zewt> | unpleasant to see mistakes like that in a google flagship product |
| 00:03 | <zewt> | eg. if even google is making that mistake (if that's what happened; I doubt I can repro it) ... |
| 00:26 | <erlehmann> | zewt, this is why i use noscript ;) |
| 00:27 | <zewt> | having the form not focused at all would not be an improvement :) |
| 00:27 | <zewt> | (it doesn't set autofocus) |
| 00:29 | <erlehmann> | fail :3 |
| 00:31 | <erlehmann> | well, since google employs π° ππ«π£ππ₯π§ π£π₯π’ππ₯ππ π ππ₯π¦ there should be a perfect logical explanation for that. |
| 00:36 | <TabAtkins> | Is that "JAPANESE SYMBOL FOR BEGINNER"? |
| 00:39 | <kennyluck> | Seriously, it means beginner driver in Japan. |
| 00:40 | <TabAtkins> | kk ^_^ |
| 00:40 | <zewt> | defaultglyph defaultglyphdefaultglyphdefaultglyphdefaultglyphdefaultglyphdefaultglyph |
| 00:43 | <kennyluck> | huh, it actually has a wiki entry β http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshinsha_mark |
| 00:44 | <zewt> | seems like a strange concept that someone can be deemed a poor enough driver to have to announce it to the world, while still being allowed to drive |
| 00:44 | <TabAtkins> | I presume it's like a learner's permit in the US. |
| 00:44 | <kennyluck> | "A driver must display this mark on the front and back of the car for one year after they obtain a standard driver's licence." |
| 00:44 | <TabAtkins> | That also marks you as a "beginner driver". |
| 00:44 | <zewt> | permit is more than that ("needs a chaperone") |
| 00:46 | <zewt> | which at least is somewhat preventative, versus a stick that says "WATCH OUT, I'M NEW AT THIS" |
| 00:46 | <zewt> | sticker |
| 00:47 | <zewt> | if people did that in the US, I'd half expect it to invite people to screw with new drivers |
| 00:51 | <zewt> | https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15292 o_O |
| 00:52 | <TabAtkins> | Ooh, quick, someone come up with an appropriate server response and use that as the closing comment! |
| 00:52 | <heycam> | TabAtkins, how do I get lists to look like (a) β¦ (b) β¦ ? |
| 00:52 | <zewt> | wouldn't an inappropriate server response be more appropriate? |
| 00:52 | <TabAtkins> | heycam: Theoretically, or practically? |
| 00:52 | <zewt> | someone files a bug as a websocket request; close the bug with "NO CARRIER" or something |
| 00:53 | <heycam> | TabAtkins, practically⦠I guess theoretically is defining a @counter-style? |
| 00:53 | <TabAtkins> | Yes. |
| 00:53 | <TabAtkins> | Practically, by putting "(a)" in the text of your document. |
| 00:53 | <heycam> | ok :) |
| 00:54 | <TabAtkins> | Theoretically, @counter-style parenthesized-alphabetic { type: alphabetic; symbols: a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z; prefix: "("; suffix: ") "; } |
| 00:54 | <heycam> | yow |
| 00:54 | <zewt> | ; } |
| 00:55 | <TabAtkins> | Or, shorter, @counter-style parenthesized-alphabetic { type: override alphabetic; prefix: "("; suffix: ") "; } |
| 00:55 | <heycam> | better! |
| 00:55 | <TabAtkins> | I mean, "override lower-alpha". |
| 00:56 | <TabAtkins> | So I guess the name should be "parenthesized-lower-alpha" as well. |
| 00:57 | <TabAtkins> | heycam: Why do you ask? |
| 00:57 | <heycam> | TabAtkins, oh I just wanted such a list |
| 00:58 | <heycam> | but I will just stick "(a)" in my document or live with "a." |
| 00:59 | <TabAtkins> | If you want, you can wrap the (a) in a <span> so that, later, you can apply "position:marker" to it and make it look like an outside list marker. |
| 00:59 | <heycam> | TabAtkins, ooh, I didn't know about position:marker. will that do the indentation of the list item body too? |
| 01:00 | <TabAtkins> | No, that's handled by padding on the <ol>, like normal. |
| 01:01 | <TabAtkins> | position:marker just makes an element use the same position scheme as a ::marker, relative to its nearest list-item ancestor. |
| 02:03 | <MikeSmith> | heycam|away: you already know about http://shapecatcher.com/ I guess |
| 02:03 | <MikeSmith> | no vim digraphs, but still... |
| 02:05 | <erlehmann> | Sorry, shapecatcher couldn't complete the request at the moment. (Error: Internal Server Error) |
| 02:05 | <erlehmann> | MikeSmith, vim digraphs? vim can into unicode surely it must have? |
| 02:06 | <MikeSmith> | digraphs are shortcut keys for particular characters |
| 02:07 | <MikeSmith> | key combinations |
| 02:07 | <MikeSmith> | ^k plus some key combo |
| 02:08 | <MikeSmith> | :digraph shows you what the know digraphs are |
| 02:08 | <zewt> | or menukey, in the case of putty |
| 02:09 | <zewt> | the sort of thing that really belongs at the OS IME layer, not in the applications... |
| 02:13 | <MikeSmith> | "The TAG will publish analyses explaining the areas in which use of Mime on the Web is proving problematic, and will suggest concrete steps for resolving problems where they are found" |
| 02:13 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/mimeweb.html |
| 02:13 | <zewt> | oh joy |
| 02:14 | <zewt> | does anything useful *ever* come out of that? |
| 02:15 | <zewt> | all I've seen was that nonsense about web storage recently, which makes me suspect not |
| 02:16 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/IdentifyingApplicationState-20111201 also |
| 02:18 | <heycam> | MikeSmith, I did not know about that site, no |
| 02:18 | <MikeSmith> | oh |
| 02:18 | <MikeSmith> | well, now you do :) |
| 02:18 | <heycam> | MikeSmith, it's neat :) |
| 02:18 | <heycam> | I can at least draw the character and copy/pastei t |
| 02:18 | <erlehmann> | zewt, i use the neo2 keyboard layout. it does away with caps lock and replaces it with an additional modificator. i think everyone should do that. |
| 02:19 | <erlehmann> | shift + capsmod + m β ΞΌ |
| 02:19 | <erlehmann> | shit + capsmod + a β Ξ± |
| 02:19 | <erlehmann> | etc. pp. |
| 02:19 | <zewt> | keyboards already have quite a lot of meta keys, more than most people can handle :) |
| 02:20 | <erlehmann> | regardless, that kkind of stuff has nothing to do in a text editor. |
| 02:20 | <zewt> | menukey is rarely used in non-windows-programs like gvim and terminals |
| 02:21 | <zewt> | er, non-windowy (damn you, muscle-memory autocorrect) |
| 03:41 | <MikeSmith> | http://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/Charles/YOW-2011-Allen-Wirfs-Brock-and-Rob-Manson-Ambient-Computing-Augmented-Reality-and-JavaScript is fun |
| 04:21 | <JonathanNeal> | hello |
| 06:59 | <matjas> | TabAtkins: ok, disabled @csscommits for now. ping me when itβs back up again |
| 07:01 | <zewt> | o/~ quotostrophies |
| 07:02 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: if you're around, wanted to chat a bit about the W3C validator.nu-based validation service |
| 07:04 | <MikeSmith> | specifically, how we should handle checking of markup features that are not in the W3C version of the spec |
| 07:04 | <MikeSmith> | JonathanNeal: hola |
| 07:16 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: Taking a look at the Encoding Standard, it seems like you should be careful to distinguish between a mutiple-to-one mapping and a multiple-to-multiple (respective) mapping of codepoints. |
| 07:16 | <GPHemsley> | ...oh, wait, you say "respectively" |
| 07:17 | <GPHemsley> | ah, not in the one I was looking at |
| 07:18 | <GPHemsley> | windows-1255: "Gecko and Presto map 81, 8A, 8C-90, 9A, and 9C-9F to U+FFFD. Trident maps CA, D9-DF, FB-FC, and FF to U+05BA, U+F88D-U+F893, U+F894-U+F895, and U+F896." |
| 07:18 | <GPHemsley> | similarly for windows-1257 |
| 07:19 | <GPHemsley> | (perhaps you started to forget to add "respectively" as you worked your way down the page) |
| 07:20 | <GPHemsley> | IMO, it'd be clearer to just say "X to Y and W to Z" rather than "X and W to Y and Z, respectively" |
| 08:50 | <zcorpan> | matjas: <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC"-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Frameset//EN"><title//<frameset/<frame>/ |
| 08:51 | <matjas> | zcorpan: duh, thanks! |
| 08:51 | <zcorpan> | annoying that the validator whines about <></> |
| 08:53 | <zcorpan> | matjas: for xhtml basic, i'm pretty sure you can't omit both the doctype and xmlns. the reason for xmlns to be optional is that is inferred by the dtd for xml processors that process the external subset |
| 08:54 | <zcorpan> | (which is optional to do, so it is bogus to omit it) |
| 08:55 | <matjas> | is there an easy way to confirm this? i believe you, but itβd be useful if there was a working validator that i could use to play around with this |
| 08:58 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: yeah maybe |
| 08:59 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: on the other hand, the goal is to remove those notes, I don't plan to keep them indefinitely |
| 08:59 | <zcorpan> | well it's kind of like schrodinger's cat. if you validate against a dtd (which you'd have to choose in the validator if you omit the doctype), you need an xml processor that processes the external subset, and then the dtd implies the attribute, and everything's fine |
| 08:59 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: both Gecko and Presto are in the process of being fixed |
| 08:59 | <zcorpan> | if you don't use a validator or use one that doesn't process a dtd that infers the attribute, then the elements aren't in the xhtml namespace, so it's not xhtml at all |
| 09:01 | <zcorpan> | best thing is to not use doctypes in production, not process external entities in consumption, and use xmlns |
| 09:01 | <jgraham> | For a definition of "best" that assumes XML |
| 09:04 | <matjas> | ZING |
| 09:05 | <matjas> | zcorpan: so why does this only apply to XHTML Basic? |
| 09:06 | <Ms2ger> | Hah, XHTML Basic |
| 09:06 | <zcorpan> | matjas: it doesn't |
| 09:06 | <zcorpan> | it applies to all xhtmls |
| 09:07 | <annevk> | can one define an enum inside an interface? |
| 09:07 | <zcorpan> | but some versions have a bogus requirement saying "there must be an xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"; declaration on the root element" |
| 09:07 | <zcorpan> | which is unclear if it is satisfied by using a doctype since the dtd infers that declaration... |
| 09:07 | <zcorpan> | anyway |
| 09:07 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: Ah, OK. |
| 09:08 | <matjas> | zcorpan: would you mind leaving a quick comment with that information? |
| 09:08 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: BTW, could you elaborate on what the issue is with Gecko and the aliases for windows-1254? |
| 09:08 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: I think Gecko does not treat ISO-8859-9 and windows-1254 as identical |
| 09:08 | <zcorpan> | matjas: sorry, have work to do. this channel is logged :) |
| 09:09 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: iirc |
| 09:09 | <matjas> | zcorpan: fair enough, thanks! |
| 09:09 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: OK, that's what I thought. It appears to have all those aliases mapped to ISO-8859-9, except windows-1254, which is treated separately. |
| 09:10 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 09:10 | <GPHemsley> | FYI, I filed a bug on it: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=712876 |
| 09:10 | <annevk> | we recently merged them in Opera |
| 09:10 | <annevk> | ah sweet |
| 09:10 | <annevk> | didn't know you hang out in this channel btw, only see you on twitter :) |
| 09:10 | <GPHemsley> | :) |
| 09:11 | <GPHemsley> | I don't usually have much to say |
| 09:16 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: what should the validator do differently for <></> ? |
| 09:16 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: BTW, Gecko also has the alias 'iso_8859-9' |
| 09:19 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: yeah, I think some other browsers might not have had that as alias |
| 09:19 | <annevk> | label I mean |
| 09:19 | <annevk> | but maybe we should be liberal with adding labels |
| 09:20 | <GPHemsley> | ah, well, I noted it merely for consistency |
| 09:21 | <annevk> | it's a known issue |
| 09:21 | <annevk> | I put up some data here the other day http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2011Dec/att-0021/encoding-labels.html |
| 09:21 | <annevk> | full with grammar errors :( |
| 09:22 | <annevk> | most browsers also have "asmo-708" as label for "iso-8859-6" despite it being a completely different encoding in IE |
| 09:22 | <annevk> | kind of weird |
| 09:24 | <Ms2ger> | -> Topic |
| 09:24 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: dunno |
| 09:24 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: previously it allowed it (since it's allowed per html4 proper) |
| 09:25 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: now it gives an error saying browsers don't support it or some such |
| 09:25 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: given the direction it's going, it should probably just use an html5 parser |
| 09:25 | <zcorpan> | but then people would get upset |
| 09:26 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 09:26 | <MikeSmith> | some people are already upset |
| 09:26 | <zcorpan> | no shit |
| 09:26 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 09:26 | <Ms2ger> | Upset surely is the default state of people at the W3C |
| 09:27 | <MikeSmith> | some yes |
| 09:27 | <MikeSmith> | some not so much so |
| 09:27 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., Tim's pretty good about not being upset |
| 09:28 | <MikeSmith> | Dan Connolly was pretty good about it too |
| 09:28 | <jgraham> | Maybe the distribution of upsetness is bimodal |
| 09:29 | <jgraham> | If we could just breed the populations we would get a nice bell curve from their children |
| 09:29 | <jgraham> | (I know what you're thinking, genetics doesn't really work like that) |
| 09:29 | <Ms2ger> | No, what I was thinking is "disturbing" |
| 09:30 | <Ms2ger> | I don't want to breed upset W3C people |
| 09:30 | <MikeSmith> | for me when I started working with the HTML WG, DanC was like K from Men in Black -- the part where he says, "There's always an Arquillian Battle Cruiser, or a Corillian Death Ray, or an intergalactic plague that is about to wipe out all life" |
| 09:30 | <Philip`> | I guess it must be tricky to remain upbeat when working with a community that is denigrating and/or disregarding what you spent the last fifteen years of your life working on |
| 09:31 | <Ms2ger> | Philip`, so, Christmas or canvas today? :) |
| 09:32 | <Philip`> | Nah, got some other urgent stuff to do first that I've been putting off for weeks :-p |
| 09:32 | <Ms2ger> | Why doesn't that surprise me? :) |
| 09:33 | <MikeSmith> | what I meant about Dan is that's the outlook Dan took on crises. He doesn't panic, he doesn't let the "the sky is falling" ranters get him panicked. He doesn't let anything get under his skin |
| 09:34 | <MikeSmith> | The sky is always falling. |
| 09:35 | <Philip`> | That just means he'll be unprepared when the sky really *does* fall |
| 09:35 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 09:35 | <jgraham> | Maybe he is prepared and that's why he's not worried |
| 09:35 | <Philip`> | and he'll look back and think "I really should have panicked for that one" |
| 09:35 | <jgraham> | Perhaps he has a secret lair under a volcano, for example |
| 09:36 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, Dan was always upbeat about HTML5. I would think he still is. |
| 09:37 | <MikeSmith> | I think part of thing is, it quit being fun. |
| 09:37 | <MikeSmith> | the working-group work, I mean |
| 09:39 | <Philip`> | He should have quit the HTML WG and joined the WHATWG, which seems to put a greater value on entertainment |
| 09:39 | jgraham | remembers at TPAC 2007 Dan scheduled one timeslot on one track to be a sort of bonding session. Afterwards he got crticised by some people for not being serious enough |
| 09:40 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 09:40 | <MikeSmith> | he started the first HTML WG f2f playing his guitar |
| 09:40 | <MikeSmith> | that was fun |
| 09:41 | <jgraham> | Which is kind of ironic because it is generally agreed that about 90% of the value of F2F meetings is in the metting *people* not in the "sitting in a room wile about 3 people talk about something vaugely technical and about 147 check their email" |
| 09:41 | <Philip`> | Surely bonding at a F2F is unfair on people who can't attend |
| 09:41 | <Philip`> | Someone should set up a WG to develop an asynchronous bonding protocol |
| 09:45 | <wilhelm> | Are you sure someone hasn't specced that already? |
| 09:45 | <jgraham> | Isn't it just transport tycoon? |
| 09:48 | <wilhelm> | Good point. |
| 09:48 | <wilhelm> | Y'all should join next time. |
| 09:58 | <annevk> | thanks kennyluck |
| 10:15 | <annevk> | whoa |
| 10:15 | <annevk> | no spam on the wiki for a few days now |
| 10:15 | <sh00p> | schema: http://pastie.org/3056523 |
| 10:15 | <annevk> | (we still got spam after accounts were disabled because we probably have a large number of sleeping spam accounts) |
| 10:16 | <sh00p> | http://pastie.org/3056528 |
| 10:16 | <sh00p> | and thats my xml |
| 10:16 | <sh00p> | how can i refer to team_two in my observer at the bottom? |
| 10:17 | <annevk> | might want to try a channel focused on XML (not sure which one that is though, sorry) |
| 10:17 | <sh00p> | there's one called xml but it's not very lively |
| 10:17 | <sh00p> | isn't this w3c's channeL? |
| 10:18 | <annevk> | it's called #whatwg, not #w3c ;) |
| 10:18 | <annevk> | there's sometimes someone here who likes XML Schema and things, but he seems to be out |
| 10:28 | <MikeSmith> | sh00p: maybe try Ankh on #w3c |
| 10:28 | <MikeSmith> | that's Liam Quin |
| 10:28 | <MikeSmith> | who's responsible for all things XMLish at W3C |
| 10:29 | <MikeSmith> | but don't think he's going to be awake yet |
| 10:29 | <MikeSmith> | he lives in Canada |
| 10:29 | <MikeSmith> | and unlike most people, he actually likes XML Schema |
| 10:32 | <MikeSmith> | wow, xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation |
| 10:32 | <annevk> | of the subset of people that have an opinion :p |
| 10:32 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 10:37 | <MikeSmith> | does the bugzilla voting feature allow you to vote against bugs? |
| 10:37 | <Ms2ger> | No |
| 10:37 | <MikeSmith> | oh |
| 10:37 | <MikeSmith> | it would be great to have a way to mod down nuisance bugs |
| 10:38 | <Ms2ger> | MikeSmith, assign to comtributorβwo? :) |
| 10:42 | <MikeSmith> | Allen Wirfs-Brock looks different from what I imagined he looked like |
| 10:42 | <MikeSmith> | (having never met him before or seen a photo) |
| 10:42 | <MikeSmith> | http://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/Charles/YOW-2011-Allen-Wirfs-Brock-and-Rob-Manson-Ambient-Computing-Augmented-Reality-and-JavaScript |
| 11:43 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: are you getting empty emails as well? |
| 11:44 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: subject "RE: CfC: Publish eight heartbeat drafts as WDs" |
| 11:44 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: second time now |
| 11:44 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 11:44 | <MikeSmith> | from hp.com address |
| 11:44 | <annevk> | kk, so not my problem |
| 11:51 | <zcorpan> | annevk: about that, i still haven't set up anolis |
| 11:51 | <zcorpan> | annevk: although i have a newer computer available now so i might have better success installing xcode and what not |
| 12:03 | <MikeSmith> | the new GLCI thing in Firefox Nightly is very interesting |
| 12:03 | <MikeSmith> | Firefox devtools team is doing some really innovative stuff |
| 12:04 | <MikeSmith> | will be nice to see how it progresses |
| 12:16 | <annevk> | zcorpan: ah, have fun :) |
| 12:23 | <ernini> | hellu |
| 12:24 | <ernini> | using flexget which uses html5lib, but have a problem which i think is related to html5lib |
| 12:24 | <ernini> | http://pastebin.com/Rs9erQmK |
| 12:25 | <ernini> | using html5lib 0.90 |
| 12:26 | <annevk> | you might want to try trunk |
| 12:26 | <annevk> | but jgraham knows more |
| 12:26 | <ernini> | annevk: oke can i upgrade to that with easy_install? |
| 12:27 | <jgraham> | ernini: I don't remember that bug. If you could try trunk that would be good |
| 12:28 | <jgraham> | No easy_install (also: in general you might want to use pip instead), but you can check it out of mercurial and it should be quite stable |
| 12:29 | <ernini> | oke, and can i fetch the trunk version with pip? |
| 12:32 | <jgraham> | maybe pip install -e hg+http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/#egg=html5lib |
| 12:33 | <jgraham> | (I haven't tried that ofc) |
| 12:35 | <ernini> | works |
| 12:35 | <ernini> | was already onto installing mercurial |
| 12:38 | <annevk> | lol https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15304 removed myself |
| 12:39 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 12:40 | <MikeSmith> | annevk the lulz are from the last comment, right? |
| 12:40 | <MikeSmith> | "100% backwards-compatible way" |
| 12:41 | <ernini> | getting the same error |
| 12:41 | <ernini> | with trunk |
| 12:42 | <jgraham> | ernini: Oh, interesting. Can you file a bug report with the source that is producing the error? |
| 12:42 | <ernini> | jgraham: yeh think so, will do it tonight after checking some more |
| 12:42 | <jgraham> | OK, thanks |
| 12:51 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: when certain people start commenting there's usually too much traffic to bother |
| 12:51 | <MikeSmith> | roger that |
| 13:02 | <annevk> | hsivonen: fwiw, I think the UTF-16 stuff should be normalized |
| 13:02 | <annevk> | hsivonen: you perform file://localhost/Users/annevk/Work/w3c-dvcs/encoding/Overview.html#concept-encoding-get and if that returns "utf-16" use "utf-8" instead |
| 13:03 | <annevk> | hsivonen: I haven't filed bugs on HTML yet to use the Encoding Standard instead because I think it should become a bit more complete |
| 13:03 | <Ms2ger> | 404 |
| 13:03 | <annevk> | hsivonen: meant http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-encoding-get doh |
| 13:06 | <annevk> | http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596514471.do might be interesting |
| 13:09 | <Philip`> | TabAtkins: "a third unknown element with a tagname of "/meta"" - that doesn't sound right |
| 13:10 | <Philip`> | (except perhaps in IE6 and similar) |
| 13:10 | <Philip`> | The tokeniser returns an end tag token with name "meta", and the tree constructor ignores it since it's not an expected token |
| 13:12 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: I have a copy of that book that I could send you |
| 13:12 | <MikeSmith> | I'm not using it |
| 13:13 | <annevk> | oh sweet |
| 13:14 | <MikeSmith> | it's at the office though |
| 13:14 | <MikeSmith> | so couldn't get it til next week |
| 13:14 | <annevk> | there's no hurry |
| 13:14 | <MikeSmith> | hai |
| 13:14 | <MikeSmith> | remind me next week if I forget |
| 13:14 | <annevk> | just want to look through it for obvious omissions |
| 13:14 | <annevk> | on my part |
| 13:14 | <annevk> | kk |
| 13:20 | <annevk> | I wonder why http://unicode.org/Public/MAPPINGS/VENDORS/MICSFT/ misses code pages mentioned on the wiki |
| 13:20 | <annevk> | wiki being http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_Encodings |
| 13:46 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: any reason you did not use http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/encoding/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#windows-1254 in the bug report? |
| 13:47 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: you used as specific version rather than "tip" |
| 13:50 | <annevk> | euhm, https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74819 ... :/ |
| 14:31 | <davidb_> | ygoat |
| 14:32 | <jgraham> | Presumably because evolution gave them the right fitness to survive in their environment |
| 14:54 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Maybe they're unfit and evolution just hasn't got around to killing them off yet? |
| 14:56 | <Philip`> | Based on historical evidence, almost all species fail and go extinct, so extant species are probably just as bad and ought to die out soon - it's not like evolution has actually found a good design for organisms yet |
| 14:57 | <jgraham> | Often extinctions, at least major ones, are associated with environmental change |
| 14:58 | <jgraham> | Species that haven't experienced dramatic environmental change have often survived largely unchanged for a surprisingly long time |
| 14:58 | <Philip`> | Humans have made major environmental changes, so those goats are living on borrowed time |
| 14:59 | <zcorpan> | major but not dramatic. yet. |
| 14:59 | <jgraham> | Well that might be the case for many species. Although in the specific case of goats, domestication has given them a short term advantage |
| 15:00 | wilhelm | scrolls up to figure out WTF this conversation is about. |
| 15:00 | <Philip`> | Of course the real danger for goats is that we will reintroduce predators like T-rexes into the ecosystem |
| 15:00 | <zcorpan> | my wife bought a goat today. though a plastic one. |
| 15:00 | <jgraham> | I am not sure that is better |
| 15:01 | <jgraham> | I mean I can understand why one might own a real goat |
| 15:01 | <jgraham> | Cheese, milk, meat |
| 15:01 | <zcorpan> | this one she'll give away as christmas present |
| 15:01 | <jgraham> | Does a plastic goat make those cheese squares? |
| 15:01 | <jgraham> | Like the ones they have at McDonalds |
| 15:01 | <jgraham> | Oh, I can understand the desire to give away a plastic goat |
| 15:02 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, just hope you'll like it :) |
| 16:34 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 16:35 | <smaug____> | annevk: do you know if other features than the ones related to sync xhr are actively being removed from webkit? (features that DOM4 removes) |
| 16:37 | <Ms2ger> | document.width/height? |
| 16:37 | <Ms2ger> | But that's it, afaik |
| 16:37 | <smaug____> | webkit still supports isSameNode etc? |
| 16:37 | <smaug____> | or perhaps it has never supported that |
| 17:04 | <crassus> | does IE8 have localStorage? |
| 18:49 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: I wanted to make sure that what I was referring to stayed constant. I also linked to the tip version below. |
| 20:47 | <TabAtkins> | Philip`: Ah, yeah, you're right. |
| 21:44 | <bga> | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vDLb3Nq824 |
| 21:44 | <bga> | :) |
| 21:58 | <BenoitRen> | Hi there. |
| 21:59 | <BenoitRen> | I don't have a W3 BugZilla account. Is it all right if I respond to a comment in a bug that I filed here? |
| 22:00 | <Ms2ger> | Please create a bugzilla account |
| 22:00 | <kennyluck> | Yeah, anyone can do that. |
| 22:40 | <BenoitRen> | Still no confirmation e-mail message. Damn it. |
| 22:41 | <zewt> | nothing like useless email confirmations to make people mailinator |
| 23:04 | <BenoitRen> | Okay, comment posted. Bye! |
| 23:10 | <dglazkov> | what's the hottest multi-player game nowadays |
| 23:10 | <TabAtkins> | WOW |
| 23:10 | <TabAtkins> | Still. |
| 23:11 | bga | want img { tabIndex: 0 } for usercss |
| 23:12 | <dglazkov> | excellent |
| 23:12 | dglazkov | aims to be the first to mention WoW in a spec |
| 23:12 | <bga> | for selecting images w/o mouse in opera |
| 23:12 | <heycam> | dglazkov, http://www.wowwiki.com/Shadow_priest |
| 23:12 | <bga> | ok dglazkov :) |
| 23:13 | <TabAtkins> | bga: nav-index (not well-implemented) |
| 23:16 | <bga> | thanks |
| 23:18 | <bga> | TabAtkins btw is still no plans to include better UI into html. is still css apearence and emulating using plain html? |
| 23:18 | <bga> | XUL will be nice |
| 23:18 | <TabAtkins> | bga: I don't understand what you're asking. |
| 23:19 | <bga> | native UI |
| 23:19 | <bga> | sorry |
| 23:20 | <TabAtkins> | I still don't understand the question. Can you rephrase it? |
| 23:20 | <bga> | TabAtkins current way is emulate tabs using plain html and css apearance property |
| 23:21 | <bga> | via <ul> <li> for example |
| 23:21 | <bga> | understand? |
| 23:21 | <TabAtkins> | Yes. |
| 23:22 | <bga> | css way is good but forse authors reinvent wheel is bad |
| 23:26 | <bga> | TabAtkins and when we will get <tabs> <tab> <tree-item> <vsplit> <hsplit> etc ? :) |
| 23:27 | <bga> | and <grid> of course |
| 23:27 | <TabAtkins> | Never, because CSS is the proper layer for that. |
| 23:27 | <bga> | :( |
| 23:27 | <TabAtkins> | In some cases, we can use CSS to make it easy to do those kinds of UI things. |
| 23:28 | <TabAtkins> | Flexbox makes tabs easier. Grid Layout does grids. Lists 4 might handle tree lists. No clue yet how to handle splitters (especially resizable splitters), but it's something I want to think about at some point. |
| 23:28 | <bga> | => extjs will live and other 1000 ui libs |
| 23:29 | <bga> | TabAtkins but its swing way. bad way. slow way |
| 23:30 | <TabAtkins> | I don't understand why it's bad or slow. |
| 23:30 | <bga> | 'i can paint pixels, ok, i can make ui!' |
| 23:31 | <bga> | TabAtkins as author i want just write <tabs> in html. NET, XUL, QT gives me this ability |
| 23:32 | <TabAtkins> | bga: None of those are the web, with the web's particular separation of concerns. |
| 23:32 | <TabAtkins> | Rarely, it makes sense to add UI paradigms into HTML - look at <details>, which was a great addition. |
| 23:33 | <bga> | TabAtkins ok, you split webapp and webpage |
| 23:33 | <bga> | webapp need ui stuff |
| 23:33 | <TabAtkins> | Which is why I'm working on stuff that helps webapps build UI. |
| 23:33 | <TabAtkins> | Like Flexbox. |
| 23:34 | <bga> | build from scratch each time |
| 23:35 | <TabAtkins> | That's fine. Webapps dont' actually want native OS styles. |
| 23:35 | <kennyluck> | Is Firefox gradually deprecating XUL? |
| 23:35 | <zewt> | TabAtkins: who knows if they don't want it, since there's no way to get it, heh |
| 23:36 | <bga> | TabAtkins thats is not fine. user want native look of ui |
| 23:36 | <zewt> | practically speaking, it's very difficult to get native-behaving OS widgets generically |
| 23:36 | <TabAtkins> | zewt: Asking people, and also noting that almost no one attempts to emulate OS styles with CSS. |
| 23:36 | <zewt> | (in a cross-platform way) |
| 23:36 | <TabAtkins> | Plus lots of people use appearance:none and styles to make the few controls that *are* OS-native look different. |
| 23:37 | <zewt> | TabAtkins: well, it's hard, and anything short of near-perfect emulation is ugly and embarrassing |
| 23:37 | <TabAtkins> | bga: If we give authors something that they dont' want, they won't use it. |
| 23:37 | <zewt> | native-looking widgets floating in the middle of non-native stuff look out of place |
| 23:37 | <TabAtkins> | Yup. |
| 23:37 | <hober> | beware the uncanny valley |
| 23:38 | <TabAtkins> | In some cases it's worth it (like getting a single consistent datepicker from <input type=date>, or consistent controls from <video>) but usually authors want to theme it with their website. |
| 23:38 | <zewt> | realistically speaking, whatever the initial reasons, people are definitely now in the habit of making their own custom UIs, so it's probably too late to change the momentum, even if they would have gone for it at one point |
| 23:39 | <bga> | heh |
| 23:40 | <bga> | chaos of themes. each app has own theme. hell |
| 23:40 | <bga> | but ok |
| 23:40 | <zewt> | theme != ui |
| 23:40 | <bga> | i still can write usercss |
| 23:40 | <bga> | :) |
| 23:40 | <zewt> | in lynx? |
| 23:41 | <bga> | :) |
| 23:47 | <dglazkov> | re: WoW, done: dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/rev/a3e6d321e899 |
| 23:47 | <dglazkov> | probably easier to read here: dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html#shadow-dom-example |
| 23:49 | <TabAtkins> | dglazkov: You realize that <a href="example.com/stories/1">; does not make a link to example.com, right? |
| 23:49 | <dglazkov> | dur |
| 23:49 | <dglazkov> | lemme fix |
| 23:49 | <TabAtkins> | Use the protocol-relative url! |
| 23:49 | <TabAtkins> | //example.com |
| 23:50 | <dglazkov> | too clever |
| 23:50 | <dglazkov> | :) |
| 23:50 | <TabAtkins> | More people need to know about this. |
| 23:50 | <dglazkov> | alright |
| 23:51 | <TabAtkins> | Also, ugh, you capitalize your color keywords? SO UGLY |
| 23:51 | <TabAtkins> | ^_^ |
| 23:51 | <dglazkov> | it's not me, it's bob |
| 23:52 | <TabAtkins> | I hate Bob. |
| 23:52 | <dglazkov> | well, he's at a comiccon, you should tell him that when he comes bacck |