| 00:51 | <mynameis> | are meta and other elements that are put in the head standardized, I mean about their attribute values? |
| 01:13 | <heycam> | Hixie, ping |
| 02:06 | <mynameis> | I found a bug |
| 02:12 | <mynameis> | ah it isnt bug |
| 13:54 | <cshu> | hi, can anyone show me how to add a new proposal to whatwg? i have the account already but didn't find a way to add a new page. thank you |
| 14:26 | <GPHemsley> | cshu: To add a new page, you basically have to type the desired name into the search box and then click the red link that shows up on the search results page. |
| 14:26 | <GPHemsley> | (Not the most intuitive thing, I admit.) |
| 14:27 | <GPHemsley> | I think the idea is that all pages should be linked from other pages, so new pages are supposed to be created from red links on existing pages |
| 14:27 | <GPHemsley> | but I don't know that the WHATWG wiki has to necessarily work that way |
| 14:46 | <Hixie> | cshu: to add a proporasl, you e-mail the list. the wiki isn't for proposals. |
| 14:46 | <Hixie> | heycam|away: pong |
| 14:51 | <cshu> | Hixie, thanks, i will send the text to whatwg⊙wo |
| 14:54 | <Hixie> | cshu: thanks |
| 15:03 | <t3oss> | which user agents use document outline? crawlers and user agents for people with special needs? |
| 15:07 | <annevk> | Hixie: got a bunch of developer feedback now; some prefer ISO8601! |
| 15:08 | <t3oss> | I also don't understand which user agents read difference between different html5 elements, graphical web browsers don't make difference between most of the elements and render them in the same way, like article and section for example |
| 15:09 | <annevk> | Hixie: in general number seems to be favored, as non-mutable, JSON-compatible, representation of a timestamp |
| 15:09 | <annevk> | Hixie: people didn't care about having to do Date(obj.startTime) to get the representation benefits |
| 15:09 | <annevk> | Hixie: https://twitter.com/annevk/status/362017983461212160 |
| 16:33 | <Domenic_> | Is there an IRC channel corresponding to public-webapps? |
| 16:33 | <Ms2ger> | This :) |
| 16:34 | <Ms2ger> | Or irc.w3.org/webapps |
| 16:36 | <Domenic_> | heh it's pretty empty over there |
| 16:36 | <Ms2ger> | Only 42 people ;) |
| 16:38 | <annevk> | Domenic_: I think generally this channel is used for most things, except CSS, which is in irc-.w3.org/css, although I'm not sure they discuss it there much |
| 16:39 | <Ms2ger> | They don't |
| 16:43 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, time to do https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=899585 (write an email)? |
| 16:43 | annevk | has some other stuff to finish first |
| 16:44 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, something about notifications? |
| 16:44 | <Ms2ger> | I can send the email if someone writes it ;) |
| 16:45 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: I didn't ask about sending :p |
| 16:46 | Ms2ger | doesn't really feel like figuring out a spec to suggest someone else's feature request |
| 16:57 | <SimonSapin> | CSS discussion happens on the www-style⊙wo mailing list, mostly we only use IRC during meetings |
| 17:01 | <TabAtkins> | And when discussing meta things. |
| 17:27 | <TabAtkins> | annevk: Yo, in the context of .then() "moving its callbacks down", that doesn't actually invoke the .then of the new promise, right? It's just an internal operation, shuffling callbacks around in the lists of different promises? |
| 17:28 | <annevk> | TabAtkins: I copied that text from you. |
| 17:28 | <annevk> | TabAtkins: Having said that, if you want to support thenables, you'll need to actually invoke the then method. |
| 17:28 | <TabAtkins> | Hrm, you're right. |
| 17:30 | <annevk> | But yeah, flushing this out in terms of actual operations would help :-) |
| 17:36 | <Hixie> | annevk: Date has an API to go to ISO8601, so that argues for Date. So far, of those responses, I count ~8 for Date and ~5 for number; however, most of the arguments for number seem to be confused (e.g. "timezone clarity"?) |
| 17:37 | <Hixie> | annevk: also note that Date does support JSON |
| 17:37 | <Hixie> | annevk: in fact it supports it better than number, for a date |
| 17:38 | <Domenic_> | dates are not freezable though |
| 17:38 | <Hixie> | what does "freezable" mean? |
| 17:39 | <annevk> | Hixie: I think the argument that wins is that Date objects are mutable and a number is not |
| 17:39 | <Domenic_> | input.valueAsDate.setTime(1234) // why is the <input> not updating!? |
| 17:39 | <annevk> | Hixie: combined with how easy it is to get a Date out of a number |
| 17:39 | <Hixie> | annevk: i think the argument that wins is that Date is better in multiple ways than number. |
| 17:40 | <annevk> | Hixie: I wouldn't say that, Date has pretty serious design flaws |
| 17:40 | <Hixie> | annevk: combined with how easy it is to get a number out of a Date |
| 17:41 | <Hixie> | annevk: so does number |
| 17:41 | <annevk> | Hixie: number doesn't really no mutable global state |
| 17:41 | <annevk> | rely* |
| 17:41 | <Hixie> | Date doesn't rely on mutable global state either? |
| 17:41 | <annevk> | yes it does, the timezone |
| 17:41 | <TabAtkins> | It sure does! |
| 17:41 | <Hixie> | what? |
| 17:41 | <Hixie> | it doesn't rely on the time zone |
| 17:41 | <Domenic_> | yes it does |
| 17:42 | <Hixie> | it has an API to convert the time to the local time zone, but that's a benefit of using Date, not a negative of using Date |
| 17:42 | <Hixie> | it's not a dependency |
| 17:45 | <annevk> | how can it not be a dependency if you have to support those methods? |
| 17:47 | <Hixie> | hm? |
| 17:47 | <Hixie> | you have to support them anyway |
| 17:47 | <Hixie> | what's that got to do with anything |
| 17:47 | <Hixie> | i'm very confused by your arguments here |
| 17:47 | <Hixie> | looking at the use cases, it's clear that Date handles more of them than number |
| 17:47 | <Hixie> | nobody is saying that either Date nor number is perfect. |
| 17:47 | <Hixie> | they both have issues. |
| 17:47 | <Hixie> | so we pick the one that is closest to the use cases. |
| 17:47 | <Hixie> | that's what we always do |
| 17:47 | <Hixie> | i don't understand what's special about this case. |
| 17:48 | <annevk> | I think what's special is that we don't have precedent for exposing timestamps as Date objects |
| 17:49 | <annevk> | and that the both the editor of the JavaScript spec as well as its inventor have spoken out against it |
| 17:49 | <Hixie> | that's an appeal from authority. |
| 17:49 | <Hixie> | and an appeal from antecedant. |
| 17:49 | <Hixie> | both of which are bogus. |
| 17:50 | <annevk> | well they gave reasons and you refuse to go into that debate |
| 17:50 | <Hixie> | what are you talking about, i gave a huge response in the bug |
| 17:50 | <annevk> | but they're not in the bug :) |
| 17:50 | <Hixie> | well if they don't care enough to bring it up in the appropriate forum, what does that tell you about how important this is? |
| 17:51 | <Hixie> | it's not like brendan isn't able to e-mail me, we chat regularly :-) |
| 17:51 | <annevk> | I'm not sure that that bug is the right forum for setting new precedents with respect to timestamp and Date |
| 17:52 | <Hixie> | it was originally discussed on the whatwg list years ago |
| 17:52 | <Hixie> | so i think we're safe on that front too |
| 17:54 | <annevk> | Again, the question is larger than this individual feature and it's not like we got many favorable reviews on WHATWG-driven API design. |
| 17:55 | <Hixie> | o_O |
| 18:01 | <Hixie> | anyway, we do have precedent. valueAsDate has shipped. |
| 18:02 | <Hixie> | (what we could do is change startDate to getStartDate(), fwiw, since that hasn't shipped) |
| 18:06 | <annevk> | I think some at Mozilla believe we can still change valueAsDate. But I guess I'll let someone else battle this since it's too draining. |
| 18:07 | <Hixie> | it shouldn't be a "battle" |
| 18:07 | <Hixie> | it's just a matter of examining the pros and cons |
| 18:08 | Hixie | really doesn't care one way or the other |
| 18:08 | <Hixie> | i just want to make sure we're making the right choice, and in this case, that seems, based on all the data, to be returning Date objects. |
| 18:09 | <jgraham> | To be fair, TC39 doesn't exactly have a track record of wonderful api design either |
| 18:10 | <Hixie> | we all have a fantastic track record of api design compared to webgl, and they were constrained by opengl. |
| 18:12 | <Hixie> | rafaelw: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22400 |
| 18:26 | <zewt> | (many of webgl's problems are just bad design decisions, creating an API which is merely bindings of a C API instead of a native API--it does have problems caused by opengl implementations too, though) |
| 19:30 | <Hixie> | anyone got an AAA visualiser or anything? |
| 19:33 | <Hixie> | how has nobody made a youtube video explaining this algorithm |
| 19:33 | <Hixie> | people make youtube videos explaining everything! |
| 19:33 | <TabAtkins> | Because it's boring and niche? |
| 19:34 | <TabAtkins> | To like, everyone, unlike all the other niches in the world. |
| 19:35 | <miketaylr> | TabAtkins |
| 19:35 | <jgraham> | Hixie: MITM TabAtkins' network connection to that he thinks it's a Project Euler problem |
| 19:35 | <TabAtkins> | miketaylr: |
| 19:35 | <TabAtkins> | jgraham: That'd work. |
| 19:35 | <jgraham> | We'll have one by the end of the day |
| 19:35 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 19:35 | <TabAtkins> | By the way, I finally found the bug in my bigint class that was making factorize() infinite-loop, so I've started working on my rational class. Fun! |
| 19:36 | <miketaylr> | (oops, stray fingers) |
| 20:34 | <jgraham> | Does WebIDL really require that (optional SomeDictionaryType foo) arguments will throw when foo is missing? |
| 20:34 | <jgraham> | s/missing/explicitly undefined/ |
| 20:34 | <jgraham> | Important distinction there |
| 20:34 | <jgraham> | (don't think it is specific to dictionaries) |
| 20:37 | <Hixie> | you can't have an optional argument if it's a dictionary, iirc |
| 20:38 | <Hixie> | or is it that it can't be nullable? |
| 20:38 | <Hixie> | i forget. |
| 20:38 | <Hixie> | there's something special about dictionaries, though... |
| 20:39 | <Hixie> | oh i see, it _must_ be optional |
| 20:39 | <jgraham> | Right, if you don't pass anything it works |
| 20:39 | <matjas> | Hixie: typo: “followed by aone of […]” |
| 20:40 | <matjas> | (re: http://html5.org/r/8109) |
| 20:40 | <jgraham> | But passing undefined should throw TypeError |
| 20:40 | <Hixie> | matjas: thanks, fixed |
| 20:40 | <jgraham> | "1. If Type(V) is not Object, then throw a TypeError." |
| 20:40 | <jgraham> | Unless I missed something somewhere |
| 20:41 | <jgraham> | Seems silly to me |
| 20:51 | <jsbell> | jgraham: Yeah, may be a missed case in the "treat undefined the same as not-passed" changes heycam was doing... |
| 20:52 | <jsbell> | Although those may not have made it in yet anyway... |
| 20:54 | <jsbell> | jgraham: ah, it's there in the ED: "If Type(V) is not Undefined, Null or Object, then throw a TypeError." |
| 20:57 | <jgraham> | Oh ffs, I ended up on /TR/ |
| 20:57 | jgraham | is ashamed |
| 20:58 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 20:58 | <jgraham> | jsbell: Thanks |
| 20:58 | Hixie | still does that sometimes too |
| 20:58 | <Hixie> | so annoying when you realise that what you're reading is known to be wrong and, worse, already fixed elsewhere |
| 20:58 | <Hixie> | with no warning or anything |
| 20:59 | <jgraham> | Yeah, seriously |
| 20:59 | <jgraham> | Maybe I should write an extension that autoredirects |
| 21:09 | <Hixie> | can anyone figure out a way to get a non-HTML node involved in the AAA? |
| 21:09 | <Hixie> | specifically, cloned by the AAA |
| 22:07 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: I don't think there is one? (At least before all your recent changes.) |
| 22:49 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: well my recent changes explicitly say that the AAA can only create HTML nodes, so i'm just hoping that doesn't mean we'll be cloning SVG nodes into HTML nodes or some such nonsense :-) |
| 23:02 | <heycam> | Hixie, was pinging yesterday about the incumbent script thing, but I replied on the bug |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | cool, thanks |
| 23:04 | Hixie | looks |
| 23:05 | <Hixie> | heycam: looks good at first glance. can't concentrate on it right now, but will try to do this soon. thanks! |
| 23:05 | <heycam> | Hixie, cool |
| 23:06 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Have you stopped changing the parser yet? P |
| 23:06 | <gsnedders> | * :P |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: one more e-mail, i think, and then some template stuff (https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22400 in particular, but i need rafaelw's input) |
| 23:47 | <GPHemsley> | Is there an easy way to get a <dt> and its associated <dd>(s) to have their tops be at the same level? |
| 23:47 | <GPHemsley> | well, I guess just the first <dd> |
| 23:48 | GPHemsley | thinks this will wind up being a silly question where he overlooked something obvious |
| 23:48 | <TabAtkins> | No, there isn't. The "best" way currently is to float the <dt>. |
| 23:48 | <GPHemsley> | oh, really? |
| 23:48 | <TabAtkins> | This is one of the canonical use-cases for display:run-in, but we couldn't figure out how to define it sanely. |
| 23:48 | <GPHemsley> | ah |
| 23:49 | <TabAtkins> | fantasai has a definition she cooked up a while back that looks pretty sane, but I haven't had time to focus on the Display spec much lately. |
| 23:49 | <t3oss> | I must leave at least one epmty space after DOCTYPE? |
| 23:49 | <GPHemsley> | TabAtkins: so what do I do about the fact that the text in the <dt> isn't aligned with the text of the <dd>? anything? |
| 23:49 | <TabAtkins> | Nope, nothing you can do. |
| 23:49 | <GPHemsley> | darn, ok |
| 23:49 | <TabAtkins> | Besides fiddle with it. |
| 23:49 | <GPHemsley> | thanks |
| 23:51 | <GPHemsley> | TabAtkins: I know I've said this before, but I can't get over how much I really like the work that you and fantasai and the rest of the CSSWG are doing. |
| 23:51 | <TabAtkins> | ^_^ |
| 23:51 | <GPHemsley> | I think I just like modular stuff >_> |
| 23:52 | <GPHemsley> | also, progress |
| 23:53 | <TabAtkins> | Everyone likes that. |
| 23:53 | <GPHemsley> | now if only the browsers would work as fast in implementing the stuff... |
| 23:56 | <GPHemsley> | "IE11 supports the latest standards for closed captioning (TTML and SDP)" |
| 23:56 | <GPHemsley> | poor WebVTT :( |
| 23:57 | <TabAtkins> | ... |
| 23:57 | <TabAtkins> | Unrelated: I can't express how much I love Python's for/else clause. I want this *constantly* in JS. ;_; |