| 15:41 | <mpt> | Could someone kindly give me an example of something that was in the (WhatWG-era) HTML spec for a long time before implementors decided it wasn’t a good idea? |
| 15:43 | <werle> | mpt cc mathiasbynens |
| 15:44 | <SteveF> | mpt: command element was around for a while |
| 15:47 | <mpt> | That would do nicely, thanks SteveF |
| 15:57 | <Domenic_> | yeah the whole <menu> thing has been sad... I wish implementers would implement at least *something* like it. |
| 16:02 | <ondras> | I find XUL's <command> and <key> elements really useful |
| 16:10 | <SteveF> | Domenic_: firfox has context menus... |
| 16:10 | <Domenic_> | SteveF: right, that's true, I guess I meant "everyone" not "implementers" |
| 16:18 | <SteveF> | Domenic_:would like to see it widely implemented, but think that styling of menus needs to be very flexible for it to be useful |
| 16:19 | <Domenic_> | SteveF: yeah, that's probably true, as much as I would like our designers to suck it up and use platform conventions :P |
| 16:21 | <Domenic_> | We did get some start on discussing styling of <select> on, I think it was the whatwg list? Or webapps? But that trailed off... Someone just needs to do the work of writing something down for implementers to comment on, I think. Maybe now that promises is trailing off I can try to make that my next project alongside streams. |
| 16:21 | <SteveF> | Domenic_:right like that's gonna happen... |
| 16:22 | <Domenic_> | ? |
| 16:22 | <Domenic_> | oh the designers |
| 16:22 | Domenic_ | shakes fist |
| 16:27 | <wilhelm> | mpt: http://platform.html5.org/history/ |
| 16:27 | <wilhelm> | Grep for 'dropped'. |
| 16:28 | <mpt> | wilhelm, I started doing exactly that when you provided the link. :) Thanks. |
| 16:43 | <MikeSmith> | mpt: datagrid is another examplse I guess |
| 16:43 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: annevk-cloud: fyi https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126375 "Consider using top-level domain name for encoding sniffing" |
| 16:44 | <SteveF> | Domenic_:yeah have been following threads on various lists on the subject |
| 16:44 | <MikeSmith> | mpt: oh, or what wilhelm said, and what you said after that :-) |
| 16:46 | <SteveF> | Domenic_: be great if you could get some momentum happening |
| 16:46 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: (I see know that ap already had Cc'ed you on that bug) |
| 16:48 | <Domenic_> | SteveF: I'll certainly try! |
| 16:59 | <Hixie_> | mpt: <command> mostly became <menuitem>, <datagrid> was never really fully fleshed out. a better example might be the repeating model from web forms 2, though i don't recall if that was dropped due to implementation disinterest or if it was dropped due to my realising it sucked. |
| 17:00 | <Hixie_> | a lot of the ones labeled as "dropped" in the history page were either replaced by something else or dropped before implementors really looked at it in detail |
| 17:01 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, that |
| 17:01 | <Ms2ger> | I've written code that used it |
| 20:51 | <Hixie_> | jgraham: ping |
| 20:52 | <Ms2ger> | You haven't pushed the a.ping change yet? |
| 21:02 | <jgraham> | Hixie_: hej hej |
| 21:03 | <Hixie_> | jgraham: anolis is 504ing. |
| 21:03 | <Hixie_> | Ms2ger: ^ |
| 21:04 | <Ms2ger> | I see |
| 21:08 | <jgraham> | Hixie_: Not sure what I can do about that |
| 21:08 | <Hixie_> | me either |
| 21:08 | <Hixie_> | do you see anything on your end? |
| 21:08 | <Hixie_> | like, in the logs? |
| 21:10 | <rektide> | querySelectors not being able to extract attribute values is a :( v.s. XPath |
| 21:12 | <rektide> | what is changing in a.ping? i'm writing some code that uses ping right now. i'm pretty sure it's not going to work either. |
| 21:12 | <Hixie_> | extract attribute values? |
| 21:12 | <rektide> | //a/@href |
| 21:12 | <Hixie_> | a[href] |
| 21:12 | <rektide> | won't that return a list of nodes with an href attr? |
| 21:13 | <Hixie_> | selectors return a boolean |
| 21:13 | <Hixie_> | "does this node match this selector" |
| 21:13 | <Hixie_> | same as xpath, as far as i'm aware? |
| 21:13 | <Hixie_> | but i'm no xpath expert |
| 21:14 | <rektide> | querySelector() returns a node list. document.evaluate does too. |
| 21:14 | <Hixie_> | querySelector() returns a node, but sure |
| 21:14 | <Hixie_> | querySelectorAll() returns a list |
| 21:14 | <Hixie_> | the node is the first on the list |
| 21:15 | <rektide> | yes, pardon. i'm new to this upstart new guy on the scene. |
| 21:15 | <Hixie_> | and the list is just the result of filtering the complete list of elements against the expression |
| 21:15 | <Hixie_> | and only including the ones that return true |
| 21:15 | <rektide> | xpath let me do more complex aaddressing of things that i wanted to pull out, to select |
| 21:15 | <Hixie_> | can you elaborate? what are you trying to do? |
| 21:16 | <rektide> | //a/@href. which is different from //a[@href] which is just a predicate |
| 21:16 | <jgraham> | Hixie_: Based on previous experience I am rather sure it is part of the server setup on that host and that I can't really configure it. Last time I think we managed to make the process faster |
| 21:16 | <Hixie_> | rektide: assume i know nothing about xpath, and tell me what your higher-level problem is |
| 21:16 | <Hixie_> | jgraham: :-( |
| 21:16 | <Hixie_> | jgraham: k |
| 21:17 | <rektide> | i would like to select attribute values |
| 21:17 | <Hixie_> | jgraham: i'll wait a bit and see if the load lightens, then :-) |
| 21:17 | <Hixie_> | i don't understand waht you mean by "select attribute values" |
| 21:17 | <rektide> | i want to write an expression taht queries a document finding things that i want |
| 21:17 | <Hixie_> | why do you want to do it? what's your higher-level problem? |
| 21:17 | <Hixie_> | e.g. are you looking for a list of URLs that are a document's links point to? |
| 21:18 | <rektide> | yes |
| 21:18 | <Hixie_> | s/are// |
| 21:18 | <Hixie_> | ok you can do that much easier than using selectors, then |
| 21:18 | <Hixie_> | just iterate through document.links |
| 21:18 | <rektide> | i may not have told you my real problem in the full detail |
| 21:18 | <rektide> | a.foo's hrefs |
| 21:19 | <Hixie_> | iterate through querySelectorAll('a.foo[href]') |
| 21:19 | <Hixie_> | (though what you probably really want is ':link.foo, :visited.foo') |
| 21:20 | <Hixie_> | (which xpath can't do :-) ) |
| 21:21 | <Hixie_> | (':any-link.foo' if you're using newer Selectors) |
| 21:22 | <rektide> | i have a feature request |
| 21:23 | <rektide> | I'd like ping to be viable for onclick |
| 21:24 | <rektide> | so many webapps that i'd like to userscript some auditing into have onclick handlers instead of links, and it kills my ability to use ping there. |
| 21:25 | <rektide> | i'll probably build a 1/3 complete hackey barely-working polyfill that let's me ignore this gap in ping |
| 21:25 | <rektide> | "If a hyperlink created by an a or area element has a ping attribute, and the user follows the hyperlink, and the value of the element's href attribute can be resolved,..." is overspecific a use case, I'd say, for what kinds of things ought be auditable in the web environment |
| 21:26 | <Hixie_> | you could just use a real link with href="javascript:..." |
| 21:26 | <Hixie_> | instead of onclick="" |
| 21:26 | <rektide> | userscript. it's not my own website i'm adding auditing to. |
| 21:27 | <rektide> | and i don't see why there ought to be an audit gap between those two otherwise near-equivalent features |
| 21:27 | <rektide> | if they are so interchangable as that, then why is one in-auditable? |
| 21:27 | <Hixie_> | i don't understand the use case. can you elaborate? you want to be able to inject script into a page you're visiting to know what link you click on? |
| 21:27 | <rektide> | yes |
| 21:28 | <Hixie_> | why don't you just tell yourself what link you're clicking on...? |
| 21:28 | <rektide> | you are an artful dodger of real problems, lord of the web |
| 21:28 | <rektide> | :/ |
| 21:29 | <rektide> | i thought ping would be a convenient means to audit my activity in an automated fashion |
| 21:29 | <rektide> | i thought ping was there for that purpose |
| 21:29 | <rektide> | it seems amazing, i love the idea that i can add a tag to report back |
| 21:29 | <rektide> | but the things that i can audit are very very very limited |
| 21:29 | <rektide> | and i do not understand why auditing wouldn't go further |
| 21:30 | <rektide> | i also do not really understand your proposition. here's one example i'd like to instrument with auditing: <div class="arrow down login-required" tabindex="0" aria-label="downvote" role="button" onclick="$(this).vote(r.config.vote_hash, null, event)"> |
| 21:31 | <rektide> | what do you propose for "tell myself what link i'm clikcing on" for this case, where someone has authored this HTML? |
| 21:32 | <Hixie_> | ping="" is primarily there so that sites can work out what link you clicked when leaving the site, since normal auditing methods fail when you click a link to leave the site |
| 21:33 | <Hixie_> | rektide: i guess i'd open a spreadsheet where i'm recording this stuff, and write "i clicked on the down arrow" or something? :-) |
| 21:33 | <rektide> | that's one very narrow specific conception of a feature |
| 21:33 | <Hixie_> | rektide: i don't understand your high-level problem here, so there's very little for me to go on. |
| 21:33 | <rektide> | Hixie_: that gets boring after the first 200 mintues spent doing that |
| 21:34 | <rektide> | and i'd have to keep opening hte spread sheet where i record stuff, and that takes effort |
| 21:34 | <rektide> | are we not human? the tool making species? |
| 21:34 | <rektide> | you have my use case! your alternative suggestion is the exact idea of what i want to do! |
| 21:34 | <rektide> | i just don't want to have to do it |
| 21:34 | <rektide> | i want links to be auditable |
| 21:34 | <Hixie_> | why |
| 21:34 | <Hixie_> | your use case is at least three levels too specific for a use case :-) |
| 21:35 | <rektide> | because it's work and i am better than work and i am human and i can make better things |
| 21:35 | <Hixie_> | yikes, it's later than i realised. gotta go get lunch. bbiab. |
| 21:35 | <rektide> | what if it's a div.onclick that triggers a move offsite? is that for some reason not auditable? |
| 21:35 | <rektide> | why wouldn't ping be allowed to work there? |
| 21:36 | <rektide> | you're in the code by definition there, you could instrument your audit yourself in that codebase, but isn't HTML's nice declarative composable structure supposed to clean up so much of this DIY? |
| 21:36 | <rektide> | enjoy lunch |
| 21:36 | <rektide> | chao |
| 21:44 | <Hixie_> | rektide: if you have a <div onclick=""> that triggeres a move off-site, turn it into an <a href=""> :-P |
| 21:44 | <Hixie_> | it's true that we can't audit e.g. form submissions |
| 21:44 | <Hixie_> | but it's not clear why you'd want to really |
| 21:44 | <rektide> | i just think auditing is super valauble, i love the declarative clean ismple form, and i want more of the web to be able to report on itself [doing whatever verb it is doing]. |
| 21:45 | <Hixie_> | we could develop an API that's just for sending one-off pings, certainly |
| 21:45 | <Hixie_> | should probably wait for ping="" to be more widely implemented first, though |
| 21:45 | <rektide> | i see absolutely zero reason for embracing a very narrow specific use for what ping is |
| 21:45 | <rektide> | i love love love "add your URL to the list, get notified" with a common packet |
| 21:45 | <Hixie_> | the general approach is to come up with high-level use cases, then address them. if the use cases are specific, the solution ends up specific. |
| 21:46 | <Hixie_> | nobody had a use case for notifying in the cases you're mentioning, so we didn't even consider them. |
| 21:46 | <rektide> | i'm probably 1/2 done with my crappy incredibly shitty polyfill |
| 21:47 | <rektide> | that i will never maintain or like or enjy, but which will serve this huge gaping need i have |
| 21:47 | <rektide> | and it will let me add auditing that seems really basic and sensible to reddit |
| 21:47 | <rektide> | without re-engineering the entire web site to support ping's requriements |
| 21:48 | <rektide> | i totally understand that i'm adding a new scope of concern, and i have enormous sympathy for being late to the show |
| 21:48 | <rektide> | but i also think the spec as it stands is cutting off it's own limbs unnecesarrily |
| 21:48 | <rektide> | thanks for talking with me ian |
| 21:56 | <rektide> | does anyone know if https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/NodeList#Why_can%27t_I_use_forEach_or_map_on_a_NodeList.3F will ever get better? "Why can't I use forEach or map on a NodeList"? |
| 23:48 | gsnedders | wonders how fast Anolis would be on PyPy, even with more stuff having to be done in Python (than in C, in lxml). |
| 23:49 | <gsnedders> | (The reason why lxml does that stuff in C is essentially the fact you end up spending ~100% of computation time in dispatch overhead, so PyPy shouldn't suffer) |