| 01:42 | <TabAtkins> | rektide: Somewhat. Some new APIs will return an Elements object, which is an array subclass, instead of NodeList. |
| 06:05 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: It's nice that ap considers the idea worthwhile. |
| 06:06 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: yeah |
| 06:07 | <MikeSmith> | it's a good sign. he's pretty careful |
| 06:07 | <MikeSmith> | exacting |
| 06:08 | <MikeSmith> | fyi for anybody who's waske already (or still), it seems like there's some problem with the w3c network at the moment |
| 06:10 | <hsivonen> | annevk-cloud_: why doesn't the big5 encoder in the Encoding Standard have a special case for LATIN CAPITAL LETTER E WITH CIRCUMFLEX AND MACRON etc.? Are those from HKSCS? |
| 06:11 | <hsivonen> | I have to wonder what the motivating idea behind Gecko's multibyte decoder abstraction is |
| 06:12 | <hsivonen> | is it more performant to avoid the code point math at run time? |
| 06:15 | <hsivonen> | annevk-cloud_: why does big5 multiply by 157? that seems weirdly inefficient |
| 06:15 | <hsivonen> | annevk-cloud_: is that math representable as shifts but I'm just not seeing it? |
| 06:16 | <hsivonen> | (in general, it's a bit annoying that the Encoding Standard doesn't make it obvious, what parts of the math could be done on the ALU) |
| 06:17 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: btw https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msg/blink-dev/zIg2KC7PyH0/Ym28fD2ZIAsJ -- the part where abarth says: |
| 06:17 | <MikeSmith> | [[ |
| 06:17 | <MikeSmith> | My personal view is that XML on the client is going to evolve over the coming years. I expect that browsers will move to a simplified version of XML that doesn't support namespaces or internal DTD subsets because those features introduce vastly more complexity than they're worth. Instead, I expect we'll process XML content using the "foreign content" HTML parsing algorithm, which, for example, is how we parse SVG content in HTML. |
| 06:17 | <MikeSmith> | ]] |
| 06:18 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: kinda scary to jus take the HTML parsing algorithm instead of taking XML5/XML-ER. |
| 06:18 | <hsivonen> | *just |
| 06:18 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 06:18 | <hsivonen> | maybe I should subscribe to blink-dev |
| 06:19 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: subscribe and just read the threads that adam posts to :-) those are usually the ones most worth reading |
| 10:08 | <SimonSapin> | gsnedders: It’s not quite ready yet, but https://github.com/SimonSapin/cssselect2 does not depend on lxml anymore |
| 10:42 | <hsivonen> | does Python really not have a format code for printing numbers in base 2? |
| 10:44 | <hsivonen> | oh, there is bin() |
| 12:15 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: r? https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/364 |
| 12:17 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, which warnings are those? |
| 12:25 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Some broken cross-references |
| 12:25 | <jgraham> | Some minor things |
| 12:26 | <jgraham> | See https://readthedocs.org/builds/wptserve/1058788/ if you can |
| 12:26 | <Ms2ger> | Hrm, is :ref:`handlers.Python` supposed to be a link? |
| 12:27 | <jgraham> | I think readthedocs hasn't updated |
| 12:28 | <Ms2ger> | Ah, now it has |
| 12:29 | <jgraham> | Yeah, apparently I can't enable the auto-update hook because I'm not special enough |
| 12:29 | <jgraham> | (at least according to the W3C) |
| 12:29 | <Ms2ger> | So https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showcomment?chain=975 |
| 12:30 | <Ms2ger> | Do we want to keep null? |
| 12:30 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: I hear you are special |
| 12:30 | <MikeSmith> | um |
| 12:31 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Well. I'm not sure. |
| 12:31 | <Ms2ger> | MikeSmith is very special |
| 12:33 | <MikeSmith> | special missions subsection junior interim floor manager? |
| 12:33 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: Possibly you can enable the ReadTheDocs webhook for https://github.com/w3c/wptserve. I assume you have to do it through the gh UI, although the rtd documentation isn't super-clear |
| 12:33 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 12:33 | <jgraham> | https://readthedocs.org/projects/wptserve/ since I assume you need it |
| 12:34 | <MikeSmith> | github ACLs are ass |
| 12:34 | <MikeSmith> | I hope those slackers fix that |
| 12:35 | MikeSmith | pusshes the button |
| 12:36 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: Thanks |
| 12:36 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: hmm it doesn't prompt me for a URL though |
| 12:36 | <MikeSmith> | *didn't |
| 12:36 | MikeSmith | re-checks |
| 12:36 | <MikeSmith> | yeah it doesn't let me specify a URL |
| 12:36 | <MikeSmith> | "Automatically build documentation hosted on readthedocs.org." |
| 12:36 | <MikeSmith> | is all that it says |
| 12:37 | <MikeSmith> | I pushed the "Test Hook" button nwo |
| 12:38 | <MikeSmith> | ..which for most hooks doesn't seem to actually do anything -- it just succeeds or fails, silently |
| 12:38 | <MikeSmith> | anyway I've set all that it lets me set from the GH side, afaict |
| 12:38 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: OK. Maybe rtd does magic to work out which docs to rebuild |
| 12:39 | <MikeSmith> | yeah it must |
| 12:39 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, I guess keep null for now, then |
| 13:19 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Thanks |
| 13:19 | <Ms2ger> | No, thank you! |
| 13:27 | <odinho> | Ms2ger: Why do you want cuddled else? I find it less legible. |
| 13:32 | <jgraham> | odinho: Don't argue, I just fixed it :p |
| 13:33 | <odinho> | I also did :/ |
| 13:33 | <odinho> | But you pushed already. But you have one error. |
| 13:34 | <jgraham> | (fwiw I think d(global legibility)/d(vertical lines) < 0 even though sometimes d(local legibility)/d(specific line-saving-constructs) > 0) |
| 13:34 | <odinho> | 1 issue left. |
| 13:35 | <odinho> | And review my changes. They are good. |
| 13:35 | <odinho> | Only those missing now. |
| 13:52 | <jgraham> | odinho: Where does the spec say that * in A-C-A-O doesn't work with preflight? |
| 13:52 | <jgraham> | (your change is fine either way) |
| 13:56 | <jgraham> | odinho: (and if you can OK my final push I can start on the rebase :|) |
| 13:57 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: %b should give base 2? |
| 13:59 | <odinho> | jgraham: It says that somewhere. I've read that spec thousand times. I'm going out now, so can't look up the ref :) Did the ok-ing. |
| 13:59 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: ValueError: unsupported format character 'b' (0x62) at index 1 |
| 14:05 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: Oh, so str.format supports b but the % operator doesn't |
| 14:06 | <jgraham> | You can do it the nice way but only if you don't also want nice things? |
| 14:23 | <jgraham> | So, that was surprisingly easy |
| 14:23 | <jgraham> | Oh, and critic did the rebase just like it's supposed to |
| 14:23 | <jgraham> | (probably means I missed something) |
| 14:34 | <jgraham> | Well the review is accepted |
| 14:35 | <jgraham> | I wonder what to do now :) |
| 14:37 | <jgraham> | (that is more or less a serious wonder, btw. I could squash and merge, but I don't really trust that everything is going to be working OK and it will break w3c-test.org) |
| 14:48 | <Ms2ger> | Post to p-t-infra? |
| 14:51 | <Ms2ger> | And land if nobody complains somewhere next week |
| 15:58 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: One more for you |
| 15:59 | <Ms2ger> | Which review? |
| 16:00 | <jgraham> | r/440 |
| 16:02 | <Ms2ger> | Ship it |
| 16:04 | <jgraham> | Two down, one to go :) |
| 16:43 | <SimonSapin> | does the html parser ever emits attributes in a namespace? |
| 16:44 | <jgraham> | Yes |
| 16:45 | <jgraham> | <svg><a xlink:href="foo">something |
| 16:45 | <SimonSapin> | thanks |
| 16:48 | <tantek> | because SVG couldn't just re-use <a href> from HTML. |
| 16:49 | <tantek> | is anyone working on fixing that so we can deprecate xlink completely? |
| 16:49 | <jgraham> | To be fair to SVG they were sold this vision of the glorious XML future |
| 16:49 | <Ms2ger> | You? :) |
| 16:49 | <jgraham> | Or, possibly, they helped propogate the vision |
| 16:50 | <tantek> | jgraham - they were definitely pushing it. |
| 16:51 | <tantek> | Ms2ger - I try not to touch svg related things. Usually there's a big undefined mess behind them. |
| 17:07 | <Ms2ger> | https://twitter.com/horse_js/status/419144086528868352 narrows down @horse_js's identity quite a bit |
| 17:10 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: horse_js is running as a write-in candidate |
| 17:11 | <jgraham> | Ah, I assumed that was "running for" as in "running for my dog that died in the spring" |
| 17:13 | <Ms2ger> | That's not an expression I've heard before |
| 17:16 | <jgraham> | Imagine someone literally running in support or memory of a cause |
| 17:16 | <jgraham> | In other news, no innerHTML tests, really? |
| 17:16 | <Ms2ger> | A few, in the DOMPS repo |
| 17:17 | <jgraham> | Can we migrate them to wpt? |
| 17:17 | <Ms2ger> | We certainly can |
| 19:42 | <bholley> | Hixie_: see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=956382 |
| 19:44 | <TabAtkins> | SVG2 is dropping *all* of the attribute namespaces. |
| 19:45 | <TabAtkins> | href/etc are just going to be in the null namespace like normal. |
| 20:02 | <Hixie_> | bholley: thanks |
| 20:05 | <Domenic_> | I'm vaguely curious what APIs use DOMTokenList and not DOMSettableTokenList |
| 20:06 | <Hixie_> | whatwg.org/C find-in-page "TokenList" |
| 20:15 | <Ms2ger> | Domenic_, relList and classList, for example |
| 20:15 | <Ms2ger> | Because rel and className already existed |
| 20:23 | <Domenic_> | Ms2ger ah that makes sense, thanks. |
| 21:49 | <Ms2ger> | Hrm, why didn't I get jgraham's email. |
| 21:49 | <Ms2ger> | ? |
| 21:51 | <Ms2ger> | "Why is this message in Spam? You previously marked messages from james⊙hcu as spam." |
| 21:51 | <Ms2ger> | Oops |
| 21:56 | <Hixie_> | heh |
| 21:58 | <Ms2ger> | So now I'm reading a month's backlog of jgraham's email |
| 21:59 | <Ms2ger> | Gmail kindly deleted everything older than that, of course |
| 22:35 | <Hixie_> | Ms2ger: i live in fear of that happening to me |
| 22:35 | <Hixie_> | Ms2ger: every now and then i find an e-mail i'm missing, find it in spam, look for others... |
| 22:36 | <Hixie_> | Ms2ger: rarely do i find many, but i live in fear of those that i'm missing |
| 22:36 | <Hixie_> | Ms2ger: given how much spam i get there's not much i can do about it |
| 22:36 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah :/ |
| 22:37 | <Ms2ger> | At least it was only jgraham here :) |
| 22:37 | <Hixie_> | anyone know who sof⊙oc is? (so i can add them to the acks) |
| 22:38 | <Ms2ger> | Sigbj�rn Finne, says google |
| 23:03 | <Hixie_> | so... where are Map and Set defined. ho dee hum. |
| 23:07 | <Hixie_> | what does " Subclass constructors that intend to inherit the specified Map behaviour must include a super call to Map." mean, in practice? |
| 23:07 | <Hixie_> | is that a real conformance criteria of some sort? |
| 23:07 | <Domenic_> | that if you do class X extends Map { constructor() { blah blah } } |
| 23:07 | <Hixie_> | (http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-map-constructor) |
| 23:07 | <Domenic_> | but blah blah doesn't include super() |
| 23:07 | <Domenic_> | then none of your methods will work right |
| 23:07 | <Hixie_> | so it's just a statement of fact, not a conformance criteria? |
| 23:08 | <Domenic_> | Yeah |
| 23:08 | <Hixie_> | i guess the JS spec doesn't mention RFC2119 |
| 23:08 | <Domenic_> | Huh yeah |
| 23:08 | <Domenic_> | Never noticed that |
| 23:08 | <Hixie_> | that's... confusing. but ok. |
| 23:09 | <Hixie_> | ah, i see. |
| 23:09 | Hixie_ | reads the conformance section |
| 23:09 | <Hixie_> | it's a CSS style spec. "conforming implementations do what the spec says" |
| 23:09 | <Hixie_> | ok |
| 23:09 | <jgraham> | Google is right about sof btw |
| 23:10 | <Hixie_> | thanks |
| 23:23 | <Hixie_> | lordy, the js spec's definition of Map is non-trivial to grok |
| 23:32 | <odinho> | sof is awesome |
| 23:32 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie_: Yeah, it is. What are you trying to grok? |
| 23:36 | <Hixie_> | TabAtkins: how to write teh structured clone spec for them. i think i have it, though. |
| 23:49 | <Hixie_> | ok, here's a question |
| 23:49 | <Hixie_> | are the keys in a Map own properties of the Map? |
| 23:50 | <Domenic_> | no |
| 23:50 | <Domenic_> | because they can be objects |
| 23:50 | <Domenic_> | they are not properties at all |
| 23:50 | <Domenic_> | they are stored in the internal [[MapData]] |
| 23:50 | <Hixie_> | ah ok excellent |
| 23:50 | <Hixie_> | that means i can copy the own properties with impunity |
| 23:52 | <Hixie_> | i wonder what alex thinks of Map and Set, given how they are essentially black magic that can't be explained by the platform primitives |
| 23:52 | <Domenic_> | How so? |
| 23:53 | <Hixie_> | there's no way to use an object as a value other than in these features |
| 23:53 | <Hixie_> | since JS has no pointers |
| 23:53 | <Hixie_> | or pointer analogue |
| 23:53 | <Domenic_> | Um |
| 23:53 | <Hixie_> | no? |
| 23:53 | <TabAtkins> | ??? |
| 23:54 | <TabAtkins> | Really don't know what you're talking about, Hixie. |
| 23:54 | <Hixie_> | like, you couldn't write a polyfill that implements Map or Set without using Map or Set |
| 23:54 | <Domenic_> | There's a polyfill for Map on MDN I believe |
| 23:54 | <TabAtkins> | Yes you can. It doesn't have the same performance characteristics, though. |
| 23:54 | <TabAtkins> | (Linear time gets rather than constant time.) |
| 23:54 | <Hixie_> | if it's not the same perf characteristics, it's not compliant :-) |
| 23:54 | <Domenic_> | You can do constant time gets using trickery |
| 23:54 | <TabAtkins> | Domenic_: Really? |
| 23:55 | <Domenic_> | TabAtkins: yeah, the old "put a hidden property on it" trick. |
| 23:55 | <Domenic_> | where you override Object.getOwnPropertyNames etc. to not show that property |
| 23:55 | <Domenic_> | Doesn't really count though |
| 23:55 | <TabAtkins> | I don't understand how it would work. |
| 23:55 | <TabAtkins> | With an arbitrary object key. |
| 23:56 | <Domenic_> | You put a property on that key |
| 23:56 | <Hixie_> | Domenic_: interesting idea |
| 23:56 | <TabAtkins> | Oh! |
| 23:56 | <TabAtkins> | Tag the object with a ref to the map. |
| 23:56 | <TabAtkins> | Or a ref to the value. |
| 23:56 | <Hixie_> | or just an ID |
| 23:56 | <Hixie_> | that you can then use as a key |
| 23:56 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie_: Yeah, you can gensym a key for it. |
| 23:57 | <TabAtkins> | Attaching the value to the key directly gives you the GC characteristics you want, I think. |
| 23:57 | <Hixie_> | anyway, seems weird that we'd be adding these somewhat elaborate features, rather than just features that would let you implement them simply enough |
| 23:58 | <Hixie_> | if we had some sort of reference type, a pointer analogue, that could stringify, etc, it seems like it would make all this less magic |
| 23:58 | <TabAtkins> | Note that Extensible Web is never about "rather than". We want the primitives, but we *also* want the sugar. Relying on libraries to do all the sugaring is a failure mode to the economics of the network. |
| 23:58 | <TabAtkins> | But yes, there's a hidden primitive in Map. |